Know Your Tropes: Literary Fiction
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- čas přidán 12. 06. 2018
- Another installment in Know Your Tropes-- this time we're tacking Literary Fiction
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Books Mentioned:
"Jane Eyre" by Charlotte Bronte
"The Remains of the Day" by Kazuo Ishiguro
"Never Let Me Go" by Kazuo Ishiguro
"Gilead" by Marilynne Robinson
PG Wodehouse Short Stories
"The Bloody Chamber" by Angela Carter
"Ayiti" by Roxane Gay
"Possession" by AS Byatt
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I can feel it when an author is thinking "I'm going to be memorialized in the literary canon". I can almost smell it coming off the pages. 😂
I agree with what you said about Literary Fiction often being most effective in Short Fiction. I've noticed that. The more experimental styles are difficult to sustain in longer works. Great video - thank you.
I found this video because I've recently been told my novel falls into the category of "literary" fiction as opposed to genera fiction, and let me tell you when you started talking about the "mopey white guys trope" I smashed that mfking subscribe button.
Fascinating, I've added this to my "University of CZcams" Playlist.
I'm reading Oliver Twist to my kids right now, and I agree, it's not that hard. It is wordy, but when you read it aloud, it works
Absolutely-- I think Dickens works amazingly as something read aloud. I had a prof who would read long passages to us and it always felt like story time in the middle of grad school :)
I want to put my signature under everything you say in this video!! So good.
I really enjoy your "educational" videos. As someone who has not been a life long avid reader, there is much about genres, tropes and books in general that I don't know. I appreciate your honesty and knowledge!
Aw, thank you!! I enjoy geeking out about this stuff, so it's fun to find other people who enjoy it too :)
About navel-gazing (and the implied narrator that thinks highly of himself,) someone parodied that in poetry:
"I look our of the window and
I'm important"
Remains of the Day is flawless.
AMEN!
Love The Quiet American. Hey I never knew what bildungsroman was. Thank you for the education and your excellent commentary and recommendations.
I agree with the simple language making for the best in literary fiction one of my favorite books "A tree grows in Brooklyn" is simple but boy does that book soar into the stratosphere. I love your videos I wish you posted daiily! :)
Haha, if only!!! I certainly have enough to say to fill a daily video >.
A Tree Grows in Brooklyn is a classic!
Epistolary like letters? READ DEAR THIEF BY SAMANTHA HARVEY IMMEDIATELY. It's about a woman whose best friend goes missing after she tries to snake her way into the marriage of the narrator, who then decides to write to her to try to get answers. So, romance-y, mystery-ish, GORGEOUS writing.
I really enjoyed watching this video! I'm German so when I read German words used in English I don't instinctively read them in an anglicised way so when you were talking about bildungsromans I was so confused as to what build-ins-romans were until you said it the 5th time or so and I realised what you actually meant hahaha
One of my most favourite things is non-linear narration and also multiple narrators. I think my least favourite literary fiction trope is male authors writing about women and fetishising them to a ridiculous point. The first book that comes to my mind is Still Life With Woodpecker by Tom Robbins. In this book he talked so much in such a disturbing way about the female protagonist's pubic hair and period as if all of that is like the most mysterious thing ever which was just creepy and weird.
Haha, yes, please forgive my terrible pronunciation 🙈. That’s how it goes when a Southerner attempts to say a word in a language she doesn’t speak...
And I was 100% thinking about Tom Robbins when I was making this list! Oof... that guy...
Don't worry you wouldn't wanna know how most Germans pronounce English words that have sort of been incorporated into the German language hahahha
I enjoyed listening to you talk. Thanks.
Oh I love boarding schools!
19th century European is my favourite. I totally agree I am Canadian and I like many classic Canadian but I don't like most American classics.
Oh I like secret life in all things. Fairytale retellings are lovely.
Stream of consciousness hurts.
There definately needs to be more male sexual assault discussion. I definitely often find it hard to read it through.
Yes, there are some great Canadian classics! Though when I lived there, I had a hard time in getting Canadians to give me recs for Canadian authors-- you are a terminally modest people, which is what makes y'all impossibly charming :)
haha I honestly haven't read enough, they are less common to come by here as well. I have a soft spot for Lucy Maud Montgomery, Rilla of Ingleside is the only book ever written by a woman about WW1 who lived through it.
Than there is Margaret Atwood and many others.
Laughed aloud at “bad literary lover” as you said what I had just said in my head.
I take it that Hemingway wouldn’t be your first choice as a writer. Our tastes are quite similar, which I should have realized just based on Christie. Then when you showed/talked about your favorites, I knew. Although Never Let Me Go didn’t work for me (I found the plot both predictable and trite), but your other choices, Girl, yaaaas.
Oh: have you tried Villette? I loved it, and think you would too, because Jane Eyre.
ETA: I see you have Calvino on the kindle. While I loved If on a Winter’s Night, you might find him to be one of those, “Wow, looky here; aren’t I the most clever writer ever?” I was just intrigued, but ymmv.
Yes I have read Villette! I really enjoyed it, though obviously not as much as Jane Eyre ☺️. I want to read Shirley from her next
I actually cheered out loud when I saw this video in my subscriptions!
So, as usual, here I come with my long-ass, irrelevant comment (I tried my best to give it some sort of organisation, but I failed):
- You know what, I agree with you with the fact (I mean, I don't know if it was actually A Point but I pretend it was) that in classics, authors did the flowery language thing better -- IDK why, it might be because it fit with the type and the style and whatever, I guess.
(Though, I really liked Moby Dick! I didn't find it boring at all, but it is also true that I read it translated, so there's also that)
Regarding "classics", but I really like Italian literature of the first half on 1900s-- I think that you might find something you like (in particular I like The Late Mattia Pascal by Luigi Pirandello and Zeno's Conscience by Italo Svevo) (also, Luigi Pirandello is also very famopus for his short stories ahah
- Re: style: I completely agree with present tense, but mostly, I cannot stand the first person narrator. It needs to be done WELL, and most contemporary writers just are not good enough to succeed, so it ends up being a novel made of lists of actions and it reads as bad fanfiction. NOPE. (things like "I looked in his eyes and gasped, I could feel my heart skipping a beat and I breathed a breath I didn't know I was holding"-- URGH PLEASE N O)
- OH, BTW, do you know what I think you might really like? Elena Ferrante's "My Brilliant Friend" saga (the Neapolitan Novels)-- I haven't read it yet, but many people whose judgement I trust tell me it is absolutely AMAZING.
- "White guys who think every woman wants to fuck them" is pretty explanatory in itself! ahahahahahah
- re: epistolary novel: one of the books I enjoyed the most ever is Daddy Long Legs by Jean Webster!
- I have the feeling I already told at some point, but an amazing historical literary fiction novel is The Silent Duchess by Dacia Maraini
- Jane Eyre: I just saw the Zeffirelli's adaptation with Charlotte Gainsbourgh and uhm, last year I read Northanger Abbey, so I kept thinking that Jane Austen managed to make fun of Jane Eyre decades before it was written (I know it was actually making fun of older gothic novels, BUT STILL)
Haha, I love your long ass comments!!! :)
I'm so delighted to get recs from other countries' pantheon of classics! I'll have to dig in deeper... it's fascinating to me what books are able to find an audience outside of their country of origin. For Italy, the English speaking world has only a handful of writers who are widely read these days, so I'm happy to have some guidance on where to go to explore more. I've read Dante, Machiavelli, and Primo Levi, but that's about it. I've got some Italo Calvino on my Kindle, but haven't gotten to him yet
And yes, I keep meaning to read the Elena Ferrante books! I've seriously not heard a bad review yet!
ahan, i also love the school kind plots. love to jane eyre.
“Pretentious asshat of a child” 😂😂😂
I would recommend The Blind Assassin By Margaret Atwood and The English Patient and Warlight by Michael Ondaatje
The Blind Assassin is great!!
The English Patient is SUCH a good book. Ugh. YES!
Yes, yes and ohh yes!
Here's a question - I really like classics (my favorite authors in that niche are Bram Stoker and Ray Bradbury). I am still a pretentious asshat per se, but recently, I've tried to get into more widely-read genres (mostly YA, since that's what most people talk about on here), but I haven't found anything that really clicks. I was wondering if you had any recommendations (no pressure though).
Haha, I feel you! I think loving classics is only pretentious if you feel like it makes you An Important Reader and judgy towards others (which was definitely me as a teen).
As to branching out of classics/lit fic... I think a good strategy that worked pretty well for me was reading the origin texts and classics of a genre. It gives you a sense of what the tropes are like in a book that still feels classic-y, if that makes sense. So like for mystery, maybe try Agatha Christie, Dashiell Hammett, Phillip Marlowe, Dorothy Sayers, etc. For horror, Frankenstein, Dracula, Jekyll & Hyde, etc. For fantasy, it would be Lord of the Rings. That would give you a sampling of what kind of tropes you can find in that genre and then you can start figuring out what you like. Once you know that, it's easier to ask for recs of "new classics" in that genre that have the elements that you enjoyed in the foundational books, if that makes sense. That's how I started branching out, so maybe that would work for you too :)
I agree with bookslikewhoa for mysteries and horror, but apart from LotR, I wouldn't really recommend ANY old SF or Fantasy novels - they're not classics due to quality, but because they're old and lots of people have read them, and there only were perhaps *five* SFF writers around to choose from back then. I think the SF and fantasy genre has only really flowered into great quality in the past three decades and is at its zenith right now. If you usually read classics (and are still looking 1 year after your comment), I'd recommend Cloud Atlas (or anything else by David Mitchell), Margaret Atwood's SF novels, The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss, Robin Hobb's Liveship Traders series, Circe by Madeline Miller, House of Suns by Alastair Reynolds, and The Ocean at the End of the Lane by Neil Gaiman. All of these have beautiful, literary prose and I believe should appeal to lovers of classics. :-)
I recommend A Room With A View and Howards End by E.M. Forster. I liked Mrs. Dalloway by Virginia Woolf, too. I'm currently reading Possession and loving it. On my next trip to the book store I will be looking for The Children's Book and Angels and Insects. By the way, I have never heard the term "navel gazing", does it allude to a person losing interest in a conversation, hence staring at their navel?
Love Room with a View and Mrs. Dalloway! ☺️ Navel gazing means basically you’re so neurotic you’re entirely self absorbed. Like you’ve looked so hard inside your mind that you end up staring down at your navel
I read the School series of books by PG wodehouse earlier this year. The boarding school settings will be perfect for you. They do focus on sport a lot, especially cricket and rugby but you don't have to be a fan of those to enjoy the stories. I talk about them here
My Jan Wrap up - czcams.com/video/hHqIkjMga04/video.html
My Feb Wrap up czcams.com/video/gRcFn1VCrxc/video.html
Hooray for Wodehouse! I'm always down for his particular blend of humor and insight :)
You have a good taste for im also fond of classics
They’re the best! ☺️
Really interesting video, thanks! You've convinced me to try and get myself a copy of Ayiti. I really enjoy it when writing touches on historical aspects of a country and culture that I don't know a lot about, plus I'm fascinated by the diaspora experience in general. And Graham Greene is on my list too, he keeps popping up in videos I watch, so it's time :) "Mopey white guys thinking about women they want to fuck" - man I agree, that is the WORST. Nothing will turn me off a novel faster. See also: "mopey white guys thinking about women they used to fuck" - which sums up nicely my reason for DNF-ing Lawrence Durrell's "Justine" recently. ;)
Yesssss--- get thee some Graham Greene! He's got a huge body of work, so there's something for every taste. And I co-sign the "thinking about women they used to fuck" amendment. Just generally... maybe don't linger so long on the objects of your sexual desire, mopey lit fic guys? Just a suggestion :)
I feel the same way about sexual assault in literary fiction. It does seem fetishized at times. I can only deal with sexual assault if it's a very small aside in a fiction or if it is a non-fiction/true crime type thing.
Yeah, it's just a lot to deal with for me in most books. It can of course be done well, but all too often it feels very clumsy
*TW* wow, I thought I was the only one thinking about this. old comment but yeah, whenever I read some sexual assault scene in fiction I often think to myself that it seems more like some rape fantasy than actual sexual assault.
What are those ornately book covered books behind you?
You must read The Enigma Of Arrival, a meditation on the the relentlessness of change, and its prose class apart.
"A separate peace" by John Knowles is right up your alley. Also anything by Ishiguro sounds like you would like as well. You might like "Maggie Cassidy " by Kerouac who knows? " The Quiet American" was dope. Yes I knew it, you love Ishiguro.
I did quite like A Separate Peace when I read it back in the day! :)
@@bookslikewhoa well now, ok. Have you read any early Ishiguro? I thought A pale view of hills was great. And pretty much everything else I've read by him. I've worked my way through most of his stuff actually. Aslo Stephan Zweig is a really good writer I've gotten into lately you might like. If you haven't already read his stuff. ;) oh and a French writer Frederic Dard I've just read is good too.
I'm very with you on preferring European classics! I'm not sure why and sometimes feel bad about it, but I tend not to enjoy American classic writers, with a few exceptions like Louisa May Alcott.
We are just terrible patriots.... I guess this means that we just need to move to Europe. It will be a terrible hardship but needs must... ;)
slam poetry is considered literary fiction? I thought literary fiction tries to be aesthetically innovative and beautifyul, and slam poetry is a complete rejection of that
YES let's talk about male sexual assault!! Do you know any books that deal with it?
Nothing in particular comes to mind aside from "Outlander," but I definitely wish it was something that was more widely acknowledged in culture. And not just as a terrible punchline in a joke about prison rape
I still don't really "get" what literary fiction even is. But then I really don't care about genres in general :D
Haha, right?? I generally think of it as anything that the Man Booker committee would deign to read ;)
Ahhhh, but I don't pay any attention whatsoever to awards haha
It’s fiction with heavy focus on themes. So anything where the story is bigger than it is. Not simply to entertain. '”Literary fiction is universally understood as symbolic or thematic fiction that critics consider to have 'literary merit. ' In other words, it is a story that tries to be bigger than the story itself.”
Do people actually think that about literary fiction? That it doesn't have tropes? They're so delusional, lol. Moping white guys is definitely one, for better or for worse. Theres definitely that one about the writer from some prestigious university and how he's depressed until he meets a manic pixie dream girl (probably with a terminal illness) who teaches him how to live. Then when some tragedy occurs, he mopes again but this time it's different because its the only real tragedy he's experienced in his life. He then uses her story to spread inspiration and write his first novel, which isn't transparent or melodramatic at all.
OMG, this was too real honestly... ugh. Yeah. Not my fav tropes
Is War of the Worlds literary fiction?
I feel like Patrick asking if mayonnaise is an instrument.
LOL, I mean, Penguin just included it in their clothbound classics series, so... I say yes!
Took me a minute to figure out what on earth was meant by Bill-Duns-Row-Mans. Some kind of canoeists?
Haha just my Southern pronunciation of "bildungsroman" :D
Someone doesn't like "Mr. Brightside"
Tisk tisk
if it gets to real, is that not a good thing? it should mean the writing is good, right? if i understand that correctly... idk
Oh yeah, it's good in terms of objective quality - but my subjective enjoyment of it is a different matter :)
know what i don't get?
what the hell is ANYONE reading, when they refer to navel gazing in literary fiction?
i don't think you're reading literary fiction... i think what you're reading is, well, bad fiction.