This would be so great to have as a full animated, like, 45 minute short, of this entire ordeal, and hearing each and every word jabbed between the two, amidst the fighting. Getting the full, unfiltered emotions from the two.
Don't forget that each of the beachheads established by the 1st were not intended to hold indefinitely. The story says that massive reinforcements are inbound, and that they will not be able to hold forever. Russ skipped out of the comm net, leaving no runners, and missing his own phase in operations. As a US Army officer, that's a GIANT no-go. The mission is to eliminate the tyrant, not play internal drama games. Blood Howl is a much to blame as anyone. Then Russ for allowing domestic nonsense to interfere with operational schedules while under fire. All the Lion did was finish what Russ flaked out of. I love Russ, but it was his failure that precipitated the issue. Also, Russ SAYS that he lost the fight. Case closed.
Agreed. Mission first. Everything is about the mission. You don't turn up to the AO, in this case, across a galaxy, with all of those combined armed assets to have some amateur-hour stuff going on. Discipline should have been squared away long before either side set out. It also shows the lack of initiative from the commanders on the ground not thinking for themselves and thereby losing the initiative and lacking the mental capacity to regain it.
In all fairness it wasn't a simple miscalculation or miscommunication but the break out of the wolfen. To liken it to modern 40k its akin to the fallen showing up mid battlefield. So while I personally see why the wolves halted to take care of this issue, the Lion was in the right for finishing the mission and covering for the wolfen later.
Lord Russ so many times is so childish, one of his captains killed our brothers,then when Father promised the head of the enemy boss he wasnt advancing at some point. Father is not at fault,he prevented the escape of the enemy. Lord Russ should acknowledge that.
@@ironduke5058 rn i dont recall the name of the book,but from what i remember, this happened after the Council of Nikaea,where the Emperor did not allowed Psykers to use their powers. At some point Lion's ship was attacked by demons and the only solution was to use the Psykers to defend the ship. To simplify this,one of the Dark Angels didnt agreed with this decision and the Lion enraged killed him
Good old fashioned brotherly fighting isn’t always a bad thing.. it did bring them together. And it sets up a a cool future story arc of the two legions getting closer. Jus my thoughts. Thanks for the vid Lord wolf!
Didnt the wolves kill 100 dark Angel's then leman talked smack to the lion?? And yet the lion let it slide despite the open disrespect. The lion yoinks leman's kill and leman throws a hissy fit and starts a fight . I'll let you decide who's the mature one.
@@TheNarwhal85 but still the end question from Rho was - was it Lion's fault or was it equal fault... What about 90% of the whole thing on Russ's head? Valrak is a big fan of Dorn but at least he's not a lore channel but Rho is covering a lot for Russ...
@@Visor3410 I'd say 70% fault to russ, 25% lion 5% erebus (because f*** erebus). At the end of the day russ killed the DA's company accidentally, he failed to follow through with the operation strategy and the Lion was taking heavy casualties. Killing the head of the state was a reasonable move instead of waiting for russ, covering for russ's wolfen problem was an extra classy move on the part of the Lion. BUT where the lion messed up was making a promise he couldn't keep. He prides himself on being the most honest most loyal primarch so breaking his word was completely out of character for him and I can see partly why russ was upset. Then the lion makes a rude quip about the wolfen which he should have known that russ was a hothead who needs to keep his image of bravado intact in front of his men. It was unnecessary for him to insult the wulfen. Is russ mostly at fault? Yes. Was the lion wrong for breaking his promise and acted completely out of character? Yes.
I really think both Lion and Russ's purposes are misunderstood, or at least misleading. Russ often boasts about how he's the emperor's executioner, but I think he's really the enforcer. He's always more concerned about acting right in his own eyes, and in teaching lessons. When he talks to what he thinks is Magnus spy - he's trying to get his 'outlaw brother' who has broken the emperor's creed to surrender without a fight.... And then goes in to take him down. Lion is the emperor's eradicator, but everyone around him thinks he's the perfect warrior. Lion is the one who burns out the places the enemy goes to ground, and is the one given weapons none of the others are trusted with. He tries to make sure his victories are final as a result. It is not hard to see where the Emperor's Enforcer and the Emperor's Eradicator would be in conflict.
Lion El Johnson is petty, but he's right. It's so funny how you say Russ sees himself as the older brother to all but Horus, but the Lion is the First, and sees himself as superior to all. Just like the Legion he presides over, who were the first and at one point the ONLY, Lion El Johnson is capable of all things, even Alpharius level subterfuge and "betrayal". Him specifically though, only the Emperor's recognition of Horus prevents the Lion from being totally self-righteous. But the Lion is right here, a petty "oath" like that was meaningless, and Russ's emotion at Lion having done both of their work shows he's more like the younger brother the Lion considers him to be. The Lion's logic is flawless, but he just reaches it so much faster than other primarchs that you'd think no deep thought went into it. But that's just how the Lion is. He's just better, maybe too much better. Also, the Lion saying Russ couldn't be trusted wasn't because he thought Russ was not truthful/trustworthy or loyal in any attempt, but Russ couldn't be trusted to get the ultimate result as the Lion could. And that's also true, he didn't bring Magnus to Terra like the Emperor wanted, nor kill him like Horus wanted. He also didn't kill Horus when given the chance, the losses the SW sustained in that gambit basically taking them out of the Siege of Terra.
"Only the Emperor's recognition of Horus prevents the Lion from being totally self-righteous." This isn't entirely correct. Big E doesn't give Lion the recognition he gives Horus because Lion doesn't need it, nor would he care for it. Horus does. Big E flat out states this to the Lion at the end of his primarch book.
Emps to Lion (assumption about Horus but in regards to the Triumph of Ullanor): "Some men demand such pomp. They cannot accept the end of one era and the commencement of another without an occasion by which to mark it and give it meaning. Laurels must be given, honours and fair titles invented so that they may be bestowed upon favoured generals. Some men need recognition." The shadows around the Emperor's throne deepened. But beneath the layers of obfustication, deep within the myriad guises of that singularly unfathomable being, the Lion felt the Emperor behold his firstborn son. "Some men," the Emperor continued, "do not."
@@Ryuzakku see, when I first started really liking the Dark Angels, it was in a book where chaos spawn were attacking on a ship in the opening of the Heresy. Psykers were blasting daemons and when they met up with the Lion he asked how they got the spawn to recede into the warp. When they said they used psychic powers a chaplain basically said "I'm gonna tell on you" and the Lion punched his head clean off his shoulders and then asked if anyone else had anything to say before commanding the psykers to clear the ship. Stuff like this just adds to my thought that he's the best primarch.
Nah if you think an oath to your brother means nothing then I think your morals are questionable. The lion see loyalty and honour as massively important so unbbreak his oath he has gone against his core values. The lion broke his oath and the sucker punched Russ not a better fighter just one that will stop at nothing to win doesn't give a shit about anyone or anything. But this the way the Big E made him and the dark angels the imperious extermination so they needed to be cold and calculating.
The Lion's mistake here is not BREAKING the promise. The mistake is MAKING the promise. With the Lion's tactical prowess, he knows full well how important flexibility is. In the words of another famed strategist, plans are worthless, but planning is everything. By promising Russ he could take out the leader, el Johnson limits his tactical options. You speak of honor, but what is the price of honor? What is the price of that promise? The Lion had the opportunity to end the battle. Every moment the battle went on, there was a risk of brother marines dying. Should one brother die, so Lion can keep his promise? Ten? One hundred? At what point is keeping that promise a wasteful example of foolish pride, rather than an honorable act? The fact that the Lion hesitated at all shows that he absolutely did read his brother, and knew how important this was to Russ. Decisive action taken at the proper moment is drilled into battle field commanders. It is a principle that has been codified even before M1. The Lion disregarded battlefield doctrine for the sake of Russ' pride. The Lion sacrificed sons for the sake of Russ' pride. Every moment of doing so screamed against el Johnson's judgment. Yes, he could have handled the follow up meeting between brothers better. He could have said that every moment waiting was bought with blood, and that the lives of his sons were worth more than his promise. Russ may have even respected that. But to the Lion, that fact should have been so obvious that it need not be said.
@@Zuemmel, you think that the Lion does not? He preserved their secret. He took the brunt of the fighting upon his sons, not Russ' sons. The Lion stopped the Blade of Neumark from cutting that cruiser in two. If anyone, the Lion is much more careful with the spending of astartes. The Lion exercises economy of force, plans carefully, remains disciplined; all of those things preserve lives on the battlefield. Is there an example of the Lion valuing the lives of the 6th BELOW market value?
Rho I am a loyal son of Fenris and huge fan of you but I gotta admit I read this book twic and I see things a lil dif. The Lion specifically tells his men to not kill the enemy commander multiple times when the way was clear to them giving Russ all the time he could to sate his honor and uphold his promise to his brother. He only acts when time is up and the enemy leader might escape or the continued fighting will cost more of his and the Wolf Kings sons lives. Now Russ showing up and seeing the Lion steal his kill would in normal times provoke his temper but Russ was already in full fury after Bulleveye( who Russ thought of as his most loyal warrior) disobeyed him. Yes things totally escalated way to fast but Russ was the bigger man and stopped first seeing the ridiculousness of his and the Lions fight. Can you blame the Lion for laying him low, not really as the Lion is just as prideful as Russ, but the takeaway for Russ fans here is that Russ even though famed for his temper came to his senses first and not only that but Russ Showed the same restraint and sense when face to face with the Khan who rightfully deserved at minimum a beating if not death for actions, yet the cool calculating Lion loses his cool and acts like the beast he’s named for.
I might be a little bit off on my timeline here. The Khan faced a Russ who was in a listening mood. Russ had just been literally gutted by the Lion and managed to hug out their problems. So he was probably melancholy as hell and hearing that what The Khan saw while the Wolves were being attacked by the Alpha Legion was the guy who had killed The Khan’s favourite brother and attacked the Warmaster being blown out of space by another Legion. The Emperor was more important than offering the Alpha Legion help in a fight they were clearly winning. The Russ that Jaghadai apologised to was more likely to offer a drink than a beating.
When Lion finally awakens from his catnap and Russ returns from his warp vacations they should hug it out. Imagime it like they bouth back and likr "bruh I missed you" "bruh I missed you too" and they hug like it would be akward and funny not just to us but probably to those that saw that😛
I swear, the story of the Wolf and the Lion may be entertaining but it's nothing compared to watching Space Wolf fans dance, spin and cartwheel around this encounter as they try to explain away Russ' loss, (just check out the inevitable replies to this note to see for yourself). It's just so hard for them to accept and it's not even the main point of the story. Anyway, with due respect WLR, you are casually ignoring some key elements here. Lion didn't just take the kill for the sake of pride or efficiency, the DAs were taking extremely heavy losses, (even Lion was taking his fair share of hits). Losses they would not have taken had they followed Lion's proposed plan. He also made several attempts to reach Russ. After taking as many losses as they already had because of the wolves this campaign, I think he absolutely did the right thing. He upheld his honor by going along with Russ' plan and holding out as long as they could. Are you seriously implying Lion should have allowed his forces to be wiped out, even when they could have easily ended the conflict early, just to appease Russ? Of course not, but as you say, emotions were high. Next, you are implying the duel and fight were the same thing. The duel was a formal engagement. A ritual encounter. They met on agreed terms with their sons as witnesses and fought. Lion won and, with the matter settled, turned to his Second and made ready to move on. It was Russ, infuriated at not just losing but getting disarmed at that (which is akin to a mic drop) who lost his temper and thus showed shamefully bad form by attacking the Lion by surprise. That is when the brawl started and we all know how it ended. Lastly, it's 2022 and we're over 50 books into the HH and other sources like the primarch book. Anyone at this point who is still peddling the notion that Lion is unable to read people or work well around them has not been paying attention. Lion is secretly very good at reading people. Hell, he's secretly very good at lots of things, even Russ noted this! It simply serves Lion and his legion to be that 'unknown wildcard'. Nobody really knows their numbers (only Lion knows) and they of course have a repository of very unique military assets that are so dangerous that they are best kept secret. Lion doesn't even like being near psykers lest "they see him as he really is". Horus was at a loss with Lion since he came onto the scene as he flew up the victory rankings at his heels and thus opted to keep the DAs at bay and occupied during the heresy, lest he risk a full on direct conflict with them. There was simply too much unknown about Lion and the disposition of the DA forces to effectively plan against them. Anyway, this is about Russ, so back to him. The thrust here in this story was Russ showing real, genuine remorse as he privately mourned news of Lion's apparent fate. He recognized his part in their schism and acknowledged his gratitude toward his brother for keeping the Wulfen secret. This is why Russ ultimately shined in his book. He humbly demonstrated real temperance, wisdom, growth & maturity and to me, this is when I finally bought into him as an interesting character and not just a Viking warlord trope. In light of this, I think it is a disservice to the Wolf King to try and split blame as much on Lion here for his part in the story as I frankly think any legion would have reacted similarly or worse under similar circumstances, (could you imagine how this story would have went down if it had been the World Eaters and Angron)? The weaknesses and failings of Russ highlighted in this story - and how he ultimately chooses to accept, learn and rise above them - is what makes him better and sets him up to grow into the marquis character he is today. Please; let's not take that from him.
Frigging thank you, I could not have phrased it better myself. The amount of cope coming from SW and Russ fans is bananas, I'm not trying to hate on them, but it's utterly ridiculous.
The Lion gets some flak in the video about not honoring his oath to let Russ kill the enemy commander, but it's really beyond petty by the wolf king to ask that in the first place. What a glory hound. Just get the mission done and leave your immature glory seeking for another time, Leman.
@@wanderhillen2435 Different cultures, this is why he asked El Johnson in equal measure, it is out of spite that El Johnson breaks his promise, because he thinks it is a trope, while on Fenris, people are made to believe this execution symbolism is really important. Basically, you can't blame Russ for being stuck in his ways (the case being Russ ASKED for it the honor of ending the dictator), you can however judge El Johnson for breaking his vow out of spite. That is like blaming Vulkan for losing Marines he dedicated to protecting civilians that El Johnson would have disregarded. They have different priorities.
The Lion absolutely should not have made the promise to Russ, he is in the wrong there for doing that in the first place, however, that and the little jab about the company russ keeps (a bit of a dick move from the Lion) were the only things the lion did wrong. If it had not been for Russ stopping and the Wulfen coming out to play, the Lion most likely would have kept the promise. It was a perfect example of extenuating circumstances because how the hell could the Lion predict that? As for the Lion knocking Russ out I wouldn't call it a cheap shot. The Lion had Russ beat when he disarmed him and that should have been the end of it. Russ going for the tackle when the Lion didn't strike him after the disarm was the cheap shop. Imagine the Lions thought process when he saw the opening to knock Russ out: "The last time I didn't take advantage of an opening and finish this he used it to tackle me, pummel me, throw me across the room and then let the fight degrade into a scrap which caused us to fall off the side of a fortress, yeah, I'm ending this". Also the trust comment from the Lion was appropriate. Malcador (and by extension Big E) has little care for promises and honour, what matters are results and getting the job done without even having to ask in the first place which is something Russ failed at in this campaign.
Lion had the opportunity to ‘end’ the duel when he disarmed russ but didn’t, Russ continued the fight. Just an un mentioned example of Lion not taking the opportunity, not sure what it means but it might imply he still had his regard for Russ and didn’t want to hurt him until Russ took it too far.
I think it might have actually been what Rho thought it was: that Lion assumed it was just a duel and not a full on fight. And so when he disarmed Russ, he thought it was over.
I agree that the Lion's choice to stay his blade was the right one and showed nobility, a level of respect and understanding between brothers and generals. But he really *didn't* understand Russ, because disarming the Wolf is just BEGGING to get counter punched, just because Leman of the Russ is 1000% THAT guy; Lion should have known. And it shows again a failure to recognize it when your opponent (read: "brother") gives in to laughter and you take the opportunity to KO them.
@@dac314 There is no failure on the Lions part only failure of Leman to check his pride or change even with his own brother. Leman acts like child and gets defended for it because: culture? It's not the Lions problem to learn how his brothers culture effects his brain, he's supposed to be an equal of the Lion, a primarch, a demi-god, with higher intelligence than a normal human. Time and time again he fails due to his attitude, actions or training of his men
@@postwar142 do you KO punch your brother when he's laughing? Even if it *might* be laughter at you? Oh. No, you don't. Probably becuz the Lion is autistic and doesn't pick up social cues. At least Russ recognized how silly it was for them to fight, the Lion was all like "urg, but my pride!"
@@dac314 Your clueless. Leman attacked the Lion twice among the other things him and his legion did. If that was my brother I would of done the same thing. Who cares if Leman finally realized how stupid he was acting. The Lion had enough of his shit and put him in his place.
Hello Rho! Nice video: you do great work with this stuff! I believe you missed the part that the Lion went after the tyrant out of necessity due to the changing tactical situation on the ground for both the Angels and the Wolves. Had the Lion not killed the Tyrant of Dulan, reinforcements from the enemy would have outflanked the positions of both the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves. I agree the Lion making a promise to Russ and his callous words to Russ were a wrong move. But, the Lion is a pragmatist like the Emperor. Hence, he adjusts his strategy when needed and Russ going dark during a military operation was a big smack to the face for Jonson and co. So, Jonson compensated by ending the battle before things got too out of hand. Then again, I am biased cos I support the Dark Angels lol.
I find it odd how much this parallels the words of the Knights of Lupus' grandmaster, who referred to the Lion as an oathbreaker and included wolf pelts in his order's heraldry.
Not bad rho but you got a bit wrong lion when cutting off the head was ment to be a swift end and a protracted battle was not part of the plan. Lion went in because russ was taking way too long. Forcing the lions hand to stop needless deaths and that means it was the more honorable move from my point of view. Lion also won the fight, but I do love how close these two were in skill. I also think russ knows lion was the one in the right as well as how russ talks about the lion at the end of the book.
The Lion is ruthless, no doubt. Part of that ruthlessness is efficiency. "Why should we lose more Space Marines to an inferior enemy than necessary, when I could just teleport in and end it?" Doesn't seem spiteful, it's a tactically sound maneuver. The wolf was pissed he didn't get his slaughter.
Once again this is why I enjoy Warhammer 40k's Space Marines. Their Primarchs and Astartes have many themes of Brotherhood Bonds that quite honestly are to be admired. Its something more people should learn and implement in their own lives since today's society has many faults that literally destroy families as a whole.
The way the primachs play out against each other is literally like siblings with mummy and daddy issues and not military commanders... No wonder the horus hersey happened.
I wouldn’t call it petty. At the end of the Primarch novel it talks about how the Space Wolf initiate russ was speaking to at the start was handed a weapon that looked distinctly Dark Angel and he took it a symbol of dishonour, but when he meets russ in the depths of the Fang, the story reveals that the weapon is crafted from a Dark Angel halberd that Russ grabbed from a terminator when he was disarmed. This weapon from that point on marked that Legionaire out as one of the champion of the Space Wolves who would meet every so often ( don’t know when ) with a champion from the Dark Angels and they would have an honour duel for the sake of the bond of their primarchs post heresy. It is more respectful than petty.
What is massively underplayed is losing 100 Space marines even to a legion is massive loss,if it had been the over way round Russ would have boarded the other ship and cut the head from the shoulders of the guilty party,but that prideful idiot thinks a simple sorry cuts it,no I shall make sure to punish the captain responsible or anything showing contrition and people say Lion is the arrogant one.
This was an interesting story to hear as well as the part that happened in space. The old GW tale that caused the battle of the brothers was that while the two legions fought side by side, the dark angels seized an opportunity to push forward with the attack and achieved a great victory, but it left the space wolves flank open to an attack by the enemy that cost the lives of many space wolves, and thats why Leman Russ was angry with the Lion and thats why they fought.
Lion stabbed him for Russ deciding to get nearly his entire legion killed in a YOLO attempt at the Vengeful Spirit, making Terra have one less legion and one less primarch. Lion hit zero important organs, so this stab was symbolic and not aggressive. Lion had no chance to make it to Terra after allowing Sanguinius through the Maelstrom and the Dark Angels losing 3 wings worth of vessels and astartes (Firewing, Stormwing, Ironwing), and the fact that Corswain did manage to is a blessing in itself. The Space Wolves were already there and then left.
@@seandlax9 I mean I'd be mad too since a Fifth Primarch and a fourth legion on Terra could have saved Jaghatai, Emps and possibly Sanguinius. They were against basically only Perturabo after all once the rest of the daemon primarchs fucked off.
Tragic case of sibling rivalry meets especially in the case of Russ, Ego and deep seeded jealousy of Lionel. In the end it was destined to happen. Ergo the true fatal flaw of primarchs the human condition. Even the emperor must have seen this. Perhaps that was why the lost primarchs were indeed stricken from all records.
I think it is implied that Lion’El’Johnson won due to the fact that the start of the book is Russ speaking to a young Space Wolf initiate in which he states that the legend of him only ever losing one duel was false, and that there was one other that he lost. I don’t think he means in a physical sense either. I think he viewed it as a duel of ideals because post Emperors ‘death’ he is standing with Lion at a painting in the palace depicting the lion and wolf fighting the serpent. They both know it was very different to the painting, and Leman offers for Lion to strike him down then and there, so he does. Literally takes his sword and stabs him clean through. He didn’t take pleasure in it though. Leman spent months healing ( it may have been weeks ), but this was all due to the fact that he did not learn Lions calculating method of war, or rather he took it more literally in that you cut the head of asap rather than when the time is right, and so when he left terra to attack horus directly only to get tricked and be forced to retreat and not return to terra, 4 legions became 3 and his brash action could have been the difference between the emperor dying and not.
I think this story is more about Leman Russ flaw than about Lions flaw really. Yes we get see small glimpse of Lion flaw. But it more about show how hot temped Leman Russ is and also he is not mature enough. Acting like a big brother because he second finding after Horus. But in fact Lion is the big brother of them all. I think Lion showing that with Roboute and Sanguinius that Lion is the big brother. I think it have been showing again and again that os fact. And that indirect challenge Leman Russ spot as big brother. Leman Russ is big brother but not to Lion but almost to everyone else really. At end of Horus Heresy I think that show how mature Leman Russ have become. And looking forward to see him comeback to 40k settings. But first I want my Lion to make a comeback.
This was more on the Lion. Friendly fire sucks, but it happens... and Russ wasn't even directly involved, plus he appologised. Russ was the real winner, he learned a lesson.
Lol yeah ignoring the hails of a friendly captain, who was trying to tell them not to fire, costing the lives of a ton of Dark Angels is totally not the wolves fault, the Lion should have took Russ's head after their dual, and mounted it to the prow of invincible reason.
Where do they become closer, I've not read or seen where they do? Have seen where a space wolf who's on ultramar with guilinen accompanies him when he greets the lion to havsvtheor customary duel. And the lion put only enough effort in to fulfil the honour duel, showing his feelings ngs towards the space wolves were not hostile and even seemed warm in an aloof keep I've way.
The only time Big E, ever shouted at Malcador was when he questioned Russ and his loyalties. Big E was pissed at Malcador for such notions and questionings. E was even pissed at this fight between the two, even though, Lion and Russ became very close after such a scuffle.
Rho, as the all knowing Rout enjoyer that you are : do you happen to know if Leman Russ had any true friend among the Primarch ? From the books I read, I really felt like he stood aloof from all of his brothers. I can't help but wonder if it isn't tied to what happened to the first of the Lost Primarchs, but it's still strange to me. Do you have more knowledge about it ?
The Lion should have took Russ's head after their dual, All Russ ever does is mess things up, like when he could have end Horus but hesitate, the Lion would have finished the job there and then.
The wolf behave like a runt that Day and not only the Lion put the wolf.in his place, he Also clean up his geneshame while Leman was k.o. cold for a Day, thats why he came.to.respect.his brother so much, sometimes we need to be humbled.
I wouldn't call Lion telling Leman that he can kill the leader a "word given between brother's" I mean leman and his legion had just killed many of his sons and he probably didn't want to waste time argueing about who gets the kill when to the Lion all that matters is victory not who gets the kill. Then Leman has the nerve to stop in the middle of the battle instead of finishing of the leader, causing the dark angels who had already lost more men than they should have because of the wolves to lose even more men. The dark angels legionary didn't think the Lion was in the wrong for taking the kill he just knew that Leman was going to be mad about it. Finally Leman after being show forgiveness for his mistakes doesn't extend that same forgiveness to the Lion when all the Lion did was kill the enemy and end the battle, saving many lives both dark angels and space wolf in the process. Nah sorry Rho this is one big L for Leman.
All the DA and SW meetings end with DA's dead or SW's having a temper tantrum due to their ignorant pride. The DA's and Lion don't need pride or glory, they get the job done and ask for no praise which is commendable and more efficient. Love ya WLR but I dont know why you shift the blame to the middle or on the DA's.
I think this is one of the things I hate about the representation of the space wolves (and I’m a sw fan) they’re suppose to be space vikings, powerful, strong, honourable, prideful yes but also use they’re instincts in the best way and to be calculated with it. but leman is always made a fool in situations you’d think he’d be the better in and made for, but the writing just makes him seem like angron (getting one up’d when his brothers are involved) even with him and his legion being the emps executioners they’ve never seemed like it, that or I haven’t read enough books. I think this is why I prefer grimnar to russ sometimes as grimnar seems more calculated and strong. We never see the might that a space wolf is to be, unless it’s been one massive play and russ has been downplaying everything he’s done, playing dumb and is secretly better then everyone (I know Horus saw that with his first time seeing russ compared to the other men of his court) maybe it’s the case that russ uses his emotions too much compared to the cold demener of the lion. This is why me and my black Templar buddy always throw insults at each other XD crazy son of dorn It just shows the differences with each legion, one thing most of them have, prideful in each their own way. Also I hate how wolf (and I love wolves) is Incorperated in everything of my legion, add change, like how you have the blood claws or the gray hunter units they sound cool and you know that they’re wolves
Just listened to this again. Considering this equal fault is just silly. Space wolves killed dark angels even while trying to be contacted Russ threatens lion when the dark angels returned fire. Russ breaks from the plan to cover up his legions flaw Lion attempts to contact russ before killing leader to prevent more space marine casualties And you expect the lion to have contrition to russ for doing what is suppose to be done? The space wolves screwed up over and over again. They showed they couldnt be trusted.
there isn't even a question here the lion did the right thing i would say this demonstrates one of russes flaws better than anything who knows how many lives were saved by this action imagine in modern day a war could be ended in one action but the person in charge didn't do it because of a promise to some one wed be furious
So is the Wolf and the Lion on good terms? My friend is a Space Wolves player and I’m a Dark Angels player. He keeps telling me the Space Wolves hate the DA and that the Wolf is in the eye or terra trying to find proof that the Dark Angels are traitors.
You're friend needs to start reading the novel. He is outstandingly wrong. They actually have alot of respect for each other's Legions. And the reason Russ is hunting in the warp has absolutely nothing to do with the Dark Angels. Either he is lying to you or his a idiot.
Thing is they both had the chance to finish it and choose not too , but lion had the chance first .. think on that for a moment would you ..had it been real lion wouldve finished russ when he disarmed him .
I think with Johnson being the overly logical person that he is, he simply didn't think that Russ would be _THAT_ pissed off about not being able to kill the enemy leader (assuming I understood this video correctly). As far I'm concerned, Russ not pressing his advantage later is simply him being slow to understand how rash his actions were (there's also the small matter one of his Captains being the sole cause of approx 100 Dark Angels being killed, so...🤷♂️)
Very interesting analysis, though I think one area worth thinking on is "who is in command here?" If you asked Russ, he'd probably say it was a joint operation. The Lion would say "me." He's been assigned his mission, the wolves are merely useful allies and when the opportunity presents itself, it's nothing to do with honour or who agreed what in a plan. It's about what is tactically sound, and the Lion answers to no one bar the Emperor. He doesn't need to consult Russ to change the plan or make a strike, because Russ isn't in command here. I feel this fits perfectly with his Knightly order. You don't need to know what the commander thinks, you do as he says and get on with your responsibility. Think of things that way and then look again at the line "you can't be trusted" that he hurls at Russ when from Russ's point of view he broke his word. The Lion didn't break his word because he's the First and he's in overall command... he was originally sent because they needed someone they could truly trust in command of this campaign. At least that's my analysis as a Dark Angel.
Let's be real, Russ's greatest achievement is having a tank named after him. Failed to kill Horus and got lucky with Magnus. The Lion outshines him in all aspects. S Tier Primarch putting C Tier in his place.
Lorgar achieved more than the two of then put together. The lion is a fool and russ isn't much better. Both are bottom tier primarchs with bottom tier legions
I think it was you who said it, and I love it. Russ is man masquerading as a beast, the Lion, a beast masquerading as a man. I think that if if they fell on each others worlds, Russ would be the ultimate Knight, and the Lion (ironically) the ultimate Wolf King.
The lion set this up. He gave Russ the Head of the Snake and so he could extract a price for the killing of his sons by Russ's. Russ's apologies where not enough. Lion also left margin for Russ to complete the task but Lion was adamant in my mind that if the opportunity arose for him to take the head he would.
Did not Russ joke/treat Lion right after he apologies for killing 10 DA companies? I am not saying Lion did the right there to break a promise. But I think stealing a kill not same as killing 100 sons even if was not Russ himself who did that.
they have lots of archeo tech from the dark ages, LOTS of it, more then any other chapter. I would imagine that porting the Primarch super accurately is easily achievable for them
Anyone in the Imperium with access to a Teleportarum can teleport whenever they want, and many Space Marine vessels have them. That said, it works by sending you through the warp so unless you are incredibly well shielded you are going to have a very bad time. Astartes usually have terminator armor on and the Primarchs all had super sophisticated armor so that would probably also work (plus being Primarchs they may survive anyway even without armor).
Its crazy that DA's players are proud of the Lion winning a fight by sucker punching. Probably because the Lion never did anything as badass as Russ's endless accomplishments.
The logic is that Russ is the outward threat. The Lion is the solution. If Big E wants to get you in line/bring you before him, he's gonna threaten you with Russ. If he wants to erase your ass from existence, he's gonna send the Lion and the DAs. Before anyone brings up Magnus, Big E wanted Magnus brought to him, it was a fallen Horus who changed the orders without Big E's knowledge.
Yeah I think he might be mid class but likely lower than Magnus (when there is no sister of silence) khan, mortarion, vulkan, horus and sanguinus. And the lion
@@bobydigital2450 oh I can't believe I forgot! He was getting it handed to him by Angron and only came out on top because Angron didn't realize he was surrounded by like 100 Wolves.
I mean it is cool how Russ realized how stupid the fight was and laughed about it, but damn is he not good at reading people If he didn’t see that Lion was thinking the same. Like I know the Lion appears the be bad at reading people but in this scenario Russ done goofed
the thing with russ is he is perhaps the only primark that is willing to louse a fight and dosen't mind getting knocked down a peg for a good reason that being said his plot writing is pretty bad. i feel like they wanted to take some of the shine off of him that the space wolves had prier to the series in the same way the Karn got a huge boost considering he wasn't much better known as the forgotten primarks.
What can you expect? We are talking about the guy who tried to teach a ‘subtle’ lesson about dangerous implants to a guy whose dangerous implants were a cause for concern because they caused pain to override thought.
@@ONI09100 I get the meaning behind your comment but man, spellings. It's "primarch", "prior" and "Khan". Especially the last one. I thought for a moment you were talking about Khârn the Betrayer.
Incorrect statement. In war, results are the only thing that matter. Seizing the opportunity to end the war faster is all that matters, and you even point out Jonson he tried to contact Russ.
On one side is cold logic straight to the point moving on warfare of the 🦁. The other the honor/word bound emotional flamboyant 🐺. Just two sides of the same coin. Maybe one day the two would laugh about it how stupid or impatient it turned out. Wolf lord rho I like how you discibed your favorite primarch Leman Russ. I now know more about him thank to you love of the wolf💛 🐺 👑 . But for me my loyalty goes to lion El Johnson. Not for being lord of the first or first born just how he's been throughout his life. When he was alone on caliban, meeting Luther and his father the emperor of mankind, joining the great crusade, have a part Imperium secondus as lord protector(well in his own wayish 😒 I will admit that what he did wasn't thought out). And finally when I think after the Horus heresy he start to look back on his mistakes and a little reflection of his actions too. But it all came back to hunt him when he found Luther joined chaos. Now caliban is destroyed, except 😤 for lone fortress monastery now called the rock which his son's the dark angels use for a mobile HomeBase. And where he sleep deep within the rock and awakened by the watcher of the dark when most needed. Lion El Johnson the emperors exterminator shall return "loyalty is its own reward!!!!!!"😤😠🦁☠
So... if I've understood this, Leman Russ is TRIPPING because he didn't get to kill the enemy leader himself? 🤔 _Seriously?_ Isn't he supposed to have superhuman intellect, or something? 🤨
Weird how you glossed over the part when russ apologized, he also threatened the lion for his space marines returning fire on the wolves for killing the dark angels on the ship. Russ did nothing to difuse the situation.
I think Leman is being childish. Their job is to prosecute war against the enemies of the emperor, not aggrandise themselves and collect pelts or trophies. Lionel saw an opportunity to destroy the enemy of the emperor and took it. They are soldiers, not game hunters.
If we're to consider the Primarchs as aspects of The Emperor, imagine the internal conflict possible in the Master of Mankind.
In all of us.
@@sardonicspartan9343 Eh. Big E is made of hundreds of old shaman souls, so… His is probably worse. lol
@@Scufflegrit thats well ret conned by now brother . Hes just a perpetual man .
@@sardonicspartan9343 You and the op get it. You do not even need the shaman explanation for we humans can have multiple divergent thoughts at once.
It’s funny how the Lion’s own sons were like don’t do it Russ is crazy 🤣🤣🤣.
The Lion really said "I cast fist"
"Two sucker punches were thrown that day, only one primarch walked away"
This would be so great to have as a full animated, like, 45 minute short, of this entire ordeal, and hearing each and every word jabbed between the two, amidst the fighting. Getting the full, unfiltered emotions from the two.
Don't forget that each of the beachheads established by the 1st were not intended to hold indefinitely.
The story says that massive reinforcements are inbound, and that they will not be able to hold forever.
Russ skipped out of the comm net, leaving no runners, and missing his own phase in operations.
As a US Army officer, that's a GIANT no-go. The mission is to eliminate the tyrant, not play internal drama games.
Blood Howl is a much to blame as anyone. Then Russ for allowing domestic nonsense to interfere with operational schedules while under fire.
All the Lion did was finish what Russ flaked out of.
I love Russ, but it was his failure that precipitated the issue.
Also, Russ SAYS that he lost the fight. Case closed.
As a son of the Lion I appreciate this insight immensely. As someone who understands (to a point) military structure? Even moreso do I love this view.
Agreed. Mission first. Everything is about the mission. You don't turn up to the AO, in this case, across a galaxy, with all of those combined armed assets to have some amateur-hour stuff going on.
Discipline should have been squared away long before either side set out. It also shows the lack of initiative from the commanders on the ground not thinking for themselves and thereby losing the initiative and lacking the mental capacity to regain it.
@@discipleaj, check.
@@MisterTwoScoops, thank you.
In all fairness it wasn't a simple miscalculation or miscommunication but the break out of the wolfen. To liken it to modern 40k its akin to the fallen showing up mid battlefield. So while I personally see why the wolves halted to take care of this issue, the Lion was in the right for finishing the mission and covering for the wolfen later.
Lord Russ so many times is so childish, one of his captains killed our brothers,then when Father promised the head of the enemy boss he wasnt advancing at some point. Father is not at fault,he prevented the escape of the enemy. Lord Russ should acknowledge that.
In which book does this happen again? I keep hearing about Lion killing one of his men for some reason
@@ironduke5058 lemans men killed 100 dark angels.
@@ironduke5058 rn i dont recall the name of the book,but from what i remember, this happened after the Council of Nikaea,where the Emperor did not allowed Psykers to use their powers. At some point Lion's ship was attacked by demons and the only solution was to use the Psykers to defend the ship. To simplify this,one of the Dark Angels didnt agreed with this decision and the Lion enraged killed him
@@remiel8759 *accidentally killed him. It was meant to be a disciplinary smack upside the head. He didn't really mean for the head to come off.
@@seandlax9 you are right
Good old fashioned brotherly fighting isn’t always a bad thing.. it did bring them together. And it sets up a a cool future story arc of the two legions getting closer. Jus my thoughts. Thanks for the vid Lord wolf!
Yes, I clash blades with my brother all the time!
It's honestly cute in a psychotic primarch kinda way
Didnt the wolves kill 100 dark Angel's then leman talked smack to the lion?? And yet the lion let it slide despite the open disrespect. The lion yoinks leman's kill and leman throws a hissy fit and starts a fight . I'll let you decide who's the mature one.
Not to mention the lion finds out about space wolves furry problem and covers for them
Yeeeep
@@TheNarwhal85 but still the end question from Rho was - was it Lion's fault or was it equal fault... What about 90% of the whole thing on Russ's head? Valrak is a big fan of Dorn but at least he's not a lore channel but Rho is covering a lot for Russ...
@@Visor3410 I'd say 70% fault to russ, 25% lion 5% erebus (because f*** erebus). At the end of the day russ killed the DA's company accidentally, he failed to follow through with the operation strategy and the Lion was taking heavy casualties. Killing the head of the state was a reasonable move instead of waiting for russ, covering for russ's wolfen problem was an extra classy move on the part of the Lion.
BUT where the lion messed up was making a promise he couldn't keep. He prides himself on being the most honest most loyal primarch so breaking his word was completely out of character for him and I can see partly why russ was upset. Then the lion makes a rude quip about the wolfen which he should have known that russ was a hothead who needs to keep his image of bravado intact in front of his men. It was unnecessary for him to insult the wulfen.
Is russ mostly at fault? Yes. Was the lion wrong for breaking his promise and acted completely out of character? Yes.
@@TheNarwhal85 Breaking character that's just lazy writing
I really think both Lion and Russ's purposes are misunderstood, or at least misleading. Russ often boasts about how he's the emperor's executioner, but I think he's really the enforcer. He's always more concerned about acting right in his own eyes, and in teaching lessons. When he talks to what he thinks is Magnus spy - he's trying to get his 'outlaw brother' who has broken the emperor's creed to surrender without a fight.... And then goes in to take him down.
Lion is the emperor's eradicator, but everyone around him thinks he's the perfect warrior. Lion is the one who burns out the places the enemy goes to ground, and is the one given weapons none of the others are trusted with. He tries to make sure his victories are final as a result.
It is not hard to see where the Emperor's Enforcer and the Emperor's Eradicator would be in conflict.
Having a giggle at the mental image of the Lion disarming the Wolf and mentally going 'Ok he's disarmed, fights ov-OOF!' as he gets tackled.
Lion El Johnson is petty, but he's right. It's so funny how you say Russ sees himself as the older brother to all but Horus, but the Lion is the First, and sees himself as superior to all. Just like the Legion he presides over, who were the first and at one point the ONLY, Lion El Johnson is capable of all things, even Alpharius level subterfuge and "betrayal". Him specifically though, only the Emperor's recognition of Horus prevents the Lion from being totally self-righteous. But the Lion is right here, a petty "oath" like that was meaningless, and Russ's emotion at Lion having done both of their work shows he's more like the younger brother the Lion considers him to be. The Lion's logic is flawless, but he just reaches it so much faster than other primarchs that you'd think no deep thought went into it. But that's just how the Lion is. He's just better, maybe too much better. Also, the Lion saying Russ couldn't be trusted wasn't because he thought Russ was not truthful/trustworthy or loyal in any attempt, but Russ couldn't be trusted to get the ultimate result as the Lion could. And that's also true, he didn't bring Magnus to Terra like the Emperor wanted, nor kill him like Horus wanted. He also didn't kill Horus when given the chance, the losses the SW sustained in that gambit basically taking them out of the Siege of Terra.
"Only the Emperor's recognition of Horus prevents the Lion from being totally self-righteous." This isn't entirely correct. Big E doesn't give Lion the recognition he gives Horus because Lion doesn't need it, nor would he care for it. Horus does. Big E flat out states this to the Lion at the end of his primarch book.
Emps to Lion (assumption about Horus but in regards to the Triumph of Ullanor):
"Some men demand such pomp. They cannot accept the end of one era and the commencement of another without an occasion by which to mark it and give it meaning. Laurels must be given, honours and fair titles invented so that they may be bestowed upon favoured generals. Some men need recognition." The shadows around the Emperor's throne deepened. But beneath the layers of obfustication, deep within the myriad guises of that singularly unfathomable being, the Lion felt the Emperor behold his firstborn son.
"Some men," the Emperor continued, "do not."
@@Ryuzakku see, when I first started really liking the Dark Angels, it was in a book where chaos spawn were attacking on a ship in the opening of the Heresy.
Psykers were blasting daemons and when they met up with the Lion he asked how they got the spawn to recede into the warp. When they said they used psychic powers a chaplain basically said "I'm gonna tell on you" and the Lion punched his head clean off his shoulders and then asked if anyone else had anything to say before commanding the psykers to clear the ship.
Stuff like this just adds to my thought that he's the best primarch.
Nah if you think an oath to your brother means nothing then I think your morals are questionable. The lion see loyalty and honour as massively important so unbbreak his oath he has gone against his core values.
The lion broke his oath and the sucker punched Russ not a better fighter just one that will stop at nothing to win doesn't give a shit about anyone or anything.
But this the way the Big E made him and the dark angels the imperious extermination so they needed to be cold and calculating.
@@faultydiscord8832 Russ should've thought about that before murdering Dark Angels
The Lion's mistake here is not BREAKING the promise. The mistake is MAKING the promise. With the Lion's tactical prowess, he knows full well how important flexibility is. In the words of another famed strategist, plans are worthless, but planning is everything. By promising Russ he could take out the leader, el Johnson limits his tactical options.
You speak of honor, but what is the price of honor? What is the price of that promise? The Lion had the opportunity to end the battle. Every moment the battle went on, there was a risk of brother marines dying. Should one brother die, so Lion can keep his promise? Ten? One hundred? At what point is keeping that promise a wasteful example of foolish pride, rather than an honorable act?
The fact that the Lion hesitated at all shows that he absolutely did read his brother, and knew how important this was to Russ. Decisive action taken at the proper moment is drilled into battle field commanders. It is a principle that has been codified even before M1. The Lion disregarded battlefield doctrine for the sake of Russ' pride. The Lion sacrificed sons for the sake of Russ' pride. Every moment of doing so screamed against el Johnson's judgment.
Yes, he could have handled the follow up meeting between brothers better. He could have said that every moment waiting was bought with blood, and that the lives of his sons were worth more than his promise. Russ may have even respected that. But to the Lion, that fact should have been so obvious that it need not be said.
Well said.
You make it sound like the Lion actually cares about dead Space Wolves. I'm not so sure about it
@@Zuemmel possibly not, but I was referring more to the possibility of Dark Angels dying.
@@Zuemmel, you think that the Lion does not?
He preserved their secret. He took the brunt of the fighting upon his sons, not Russ' sons. The Lion stopped the Blade of Neumark from cutting that cruiser in two.
If anyone, the Lion is much more careful with the spending of astartes. The Lion exercises economy of force, plans carefully, remains disciplined; all of those things preserve lives on the battlefield.
Is there an example of the Lion valuing the lives of the 6th BELOW market value?
Great take
It was always cute that Russ thought he could best the Lion.
Rho I am a loyal son of Fenris and huge fan of you but I gotta admit I read this book twic and I see things a lil dif. The Lion specifically tells his men to not kill the enemy commander multiple times when the way was clear to them giving Russ all the time he could to sate his honor and uphold his promise to his brother. He only acts when time is up and the enemy leader might escape or the continued fighting will cost more of his and the Wolf Kings sons lives. Now Russ showing up and seeing the Lion steal his kill would in normal times provoke his temper but Russ was already in full fury after Bulleveye( who Russ thought of as his most loyal warrior) disobeyed him. Yes things totally escalated way to fast but Russ was the bigger man and stopped first seeing the ridiculousness of his and the Lions fight. Can you blame the Lion for laying him low, not really as the Lion is just as prideful as Russ, but the takeaway for Russ fans here is that Russ even though famed for his temper came to his senses first and not only that but Russ Showed the same restraint and sense when face to face with the Khan who rightfully deserved at minimum a beating if not death for actions, yet the cool calculating Lion loses his cool and acts like the beast he’s named for.
Lol the lion finishes. This is why he is called to the threats so terrible they shouldn’t be remembered.
I might be a little bit off on my timeline here.
The Khan faced a Russ who was in a listening mood.
Russ had just been literally gutted by the Lion and managed to hug out their problems. So he was probably melancholy as hell and hearing that what The Khan saw while the Wolves were being attacked by the Alpha Legion was the guy who had killed The Khan’s favourite brother and attacked the Warmaster being blown out of space by another Legion. The Emperor was more important than offering the Alpha Legion help in a fight they were clearly winning.
The Russ that Jaghadai apologised to was more likely to offer a drink than a beating.
Hey Rho,
Can you do one about the sanction Wolf pack sent to Guilliman, who basically defended Roboute's mom from Conrad Kurze, in her own chambers?
You just covered them. That's the whole story
@@stevepickford3004 do you need a doctor?
@@Leman.Russ.6thLegion Send me a c.v and ill take a look.
@@stevepickford3004 no. I expect the results on my desk
@@Leman.Russ.6thLegion lol why are you so consistently embarrassing?
When Lion finally awakens from his catnap and Russ returns from his warp vacations they should hug it out. Imagime it like they bouth back and likr "bruh I missed you" "bruh I missed you too" and they hug like it would be akward and funny not just to us but probably to those that saw that😛
I swear, the story of the Wolf and the Lion may be entertaining but it's nothing compared to watching Space Wolf fans dance, spin and cartwheel around this encounter as they try to explain away Russ' loss, (just check out the inevitable replies to this note to see for yourself). It's just so hard for them to accept and it's not even the main point of the story. Anyway, with due respect WLR, you are casually ignoring some key elements here. Lion didn't just take the kill for the sake of pride or efficiency, the DAs were taking extremely heavy losses, (even Lion was taking his fair share of hits). Losses they would not have taken had they followed Lion's proposed plan. He also made several attempts to reach Russ. After taking as many losses as they already had because of the wolves this campaign, I think he absolutely did the right thing. He upheld his honor by going along with Russ' plan and holding out as long as they could. Are you seriously implying Lion should have allowed his forces to be wiped out, even when they could have easily ended the conflict early, just to appease Russ? Of course not, but as you say, emotions were high.
Next, you are implying the duel and fight were the same thing. The duel was a formal engagement. A ritual encounter. They met on agreed terms with their sons as witnesses and fought. Lion won and, with the matter settled, turned to his Second and made ready to move on. It was Russ, infuriated at not just losing but getting disarmed at that (which is akin to a mic drop) who lost his temper and thus showed shamefully bad form by attacking the Lion by surprise. That is when the brawl started and we all know how it ended.
Lastly, it's 2022 and we're over 50 books into the HH and other sources like the primarch book. Anyone at this point who is still peddling the notion that Lion is unable to read people or work well around them has not been paying attention. Lion is secretly very good at reading people. Hell, he's secretly very good at lots of things, even Russ noted this! It simply serves Lion and his legion to be that 'unknown wildcard'. Nobody really knows their numbers (only Lion knows) and they of course have a repository of very unique military assets that are so dangerous that they are best kept secret. Lion doesn't even like being near psykers lest "they see him as he really is". Horus was at a loss with Lion since he came onto the scene as he flew up the victory rankings at his heels and thus opted to keep the DAs at bay and occupied during the heresy, lest he risk a full on direct conflict with them. There was simply too much unknown about Lion and the disposition of the DA forces to effectively plan against them.
Anyway, this is about Russ, so back to him. The thrust here in this story was Russ showing real, genuine remorse as he privately mourned news of Lion's apparent fate. He recognized his part in their schism and acknowledged his gratitude toward his brother for keeping the Wulfen secret. This is why Russ ultimately shined in his book. He humbly demonstrated real temperance, wisdom, growth & maturity and to me, this is when I finally bought into him as an interesting character and not just a Viking warlord trope. In light of this, I think it is a disservice to the Wolf King to try and split blame as much on Lion here for his part in the story as I frankly think any legion would have reacted similarly or worse under similar circumstances, (could you imagine how this story would have went down if it had been the World Eaters and Angron)? The weaknesses and failings of Russ highlighted in this story - and how he ultimately chooses to accept, learn and rise above them - is what makes him better and sets him up to grow into the marquis character he is today. Please; let's not take that from him.
Frigging thank you, I could not have phrased it better myself. The amount of cope coming from SW and Russ fans is bananas, I'm not trying to hate on them, but it's utterly ridiculous.
This
The Lion gets some flak in the video about not honoring his oath to let Russ kill the enemy commander, but it's really beyond petty by the wolf king to ask that in the first place. What a glory hound. Just get the mission done and leave your immature glory seeking for another time, Leman.
@@wanderhillen2435 Different cultures, this is why he asked El Johnson in equal measure, it is out of spite that El Johnson breaks his promise, because he thinks it is a trope, while on Fenris, people are made to believe this execution symbolism is really important. Basically, you can't blame Russ for being stuck in his ways (the case being Russ ASKED for it the honor of ending the dictator), you can however judge El Johnson for breaking his vow out of spite. That is like blaming Vulkan for losing Marines he dedicated to protecting civilians that El Johnson would have disregarded. They have different priorities.
Well said borther
The Lion absolutely should not have made the promise to Russ, he is in the wrong there for doing that in the first place, however, that and the little jab about the company russ keeps (a bit of a dick move from the Lion) were the only things the lion did wrong.
If it had not been for Russ stopping and the Wulfen coming out to play, the Lion most likely would have kept the promise. It was a perfect example of extenuating circumstances because how the hell could the Lion predict that?
As for the Lion knocking Russ out I wouldn't call it a cheap shot. The Lion had Russ beat when he disarmed him and that should have been the end of it. Russ going for the tackle when the Lion didn't strike him after the disarm was the cheap shop. Imagine the Lions thought process when he saw the opening to knock Russ out: "The last time I didn't take advantage of an opening and finish this he used it to tackle me, pummel me, throw me across the room and then let the fight degrade into a scrap which caused us to fall off the side of a fortress, yeah, I'm ending this".
Also the trust comment from the Lion was appropriate. Malcador (and by extension Big E) has little care for promises and honour, what matters are results and getting the job done without even having to ask in the first place which is something Russ failed at in this campaign.
The Wolf vs The Lion
Lion had the opportunity to ‘end’ the duel when he disarmed russ but didn’t, Russ continued the fight. Just an un mentioned example of Lion not taking the opportunity, not sure what it means but it might imply he still had his regard for Russ and didn’t want to hurt him until Russ took it too far.
I think it might have actually been what Rho thought it was: that Lion assumed it was just a duel and not a full on fight. And so when he disarmed Russ, he thought it was over.
I agree that the Lion's choice to stay his blade was the right one and showed nobility, a level of respect and understanding between brothers and generals. But he really *didn't* understand Russ, because disarming the Wolf is just BEGGING to get counter punched, just because Leman of the Russ is 1000% THAT guy; Lion should have known.
And it shows again a failure to recognize it when your opponent (read: "brother") gives in to laughter and you take the opportunity to KO them.
@@dac314 There is no failure on the Lions part only failure of Leman to check his pride or change even with his own brother. Leman acts like child and gets defended for it because: culture? It's not the Lions problem to learn how his brothers culture effects his brain, he's supposed to be an equal of the Lion, a primarch, a demi-god, with higher intelligence than a normal human. Time and time again he fails due to his attitude, actions or training of his men
@@postwar142 do you KO punch your brother when he's laughing? Even if it *might* be laughter at you? Oh. No, you don't. Probably becuz the Lion is autistic and doesn't pick up social cues. At least Russ recognized how silly it was for them to fight, the Lion was all like "urg, but my pride!"
@@dac314 Your clueless. Leman attacked the Lion twice among the other things him and his legion did. If that was my brother I would of done the same thing. Who cares if Leman finally realized how stupid he was acting. The Lion had enough of his shit and put him in his place.
Hello Rho! Nice video: you do great work with this stuff! I believe you missed the part that the Lion went after the tyrant out of necessity due to the changing tactical situation on the ground for both the Angels and the Wolves. Had the Lion not killed the Tyrant of Dulan, reinforcements from the enemy would have outflanked the positions of both the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves.
I agree the Lion making a promise to Russ and his callous words to Russ were a wrong move. But, the Lion is a pragmatist like the Emperor. Hence, he adjusts his strategy when needed and Russ going dark during a military operation was a big smack to the face for Jonson and co. So, Jonson compensated by ending the battle before things got too out of hand.
Then again, I am biased cos I support the Dark Angels lol.
I'm a Wolves fan and I agree with you lol
I find it odd how much this parallels the words of the Knights of Lupus' grandmaster, who referred to the Lion as an oathbreaker and included wolf pelts in his order's heraldry.
Not bad rho but you got a bit wrong lion when cutting off the head was ment to be a swift end and a protracted battle was not part of the plan. Lion went in because russ was taking way too long. Forcing the lions hand to stop needless deaths and that means it was the more honorable move from my point of view. Lion also won the fight, but I do love how close these two were in skill. I also think russ knows lion was the one in the right as well as how russ talks about the lion at the end of the book.
The Lion is ruthless, no doubt. Part of that ruthlessness is efficiency. "Why should we lose more Space Marines to an inferior enemy than necessary, when I could just teleport in and end it?" Doesn't seem spiteful, it's a tactically sound maneuver. The wolf was pissed he didn't get his slaughter.
I think the lion wasn't over the death of his brothers , I think it was a bit of a FU,
Once again this is why I enjoy Warhammer 40k's Space Marines. Their Primarchs and Astartes have many themes of Brotherhood Bonds that quite honestly are to be admired. Its something more people should learn and implement in their own lives since today's society has many faults that literally destroy families as a whole.
40k have a lot of lessons for people to come. It is a part of modern mythology.
So you're saying I should be like the primarchs with relationships? Imma be just like horus, can't wait to go to Dublin next week
love the longer videos
The way the primachs play out against each other is literally like siblings with mummy and daddy issues and not military commanders... No wonder the horus hersey happened.
Who was at fault: Leman
who came out the victor: Lion
Repercussions: Petty squabbling between the legions for a millennia to come
I wouldn’t call it petty. At the end of the Primarch novel it talks about how the Space Wolf initiate russ was speaking to at the start was handed a weapon that looked distinctly Dark Angel and he took it a symbol of dishonour, but when he meets russ in the depths of the Fang, the story reveals that the weapon is crafted from a Dark Angel halberd that Russ grabbed from a terminator when he was disarmed. This weapon from that point on marked that Legionaire out as one of the champion of the Space Wolves who would meet every so often ( don’t know when ) with a champion from the Dark Angels and they would have an honour duel for the sake of the bond of their primarchs post heresy. It is more respectful than petty.
@@christianyoung6686 what Ragnar did when he was defeated was not honorable.
@@Jesseleeg what did he do?
100000!!!!!!!!!! Where is your Homemade Space Wolf Chapter?! Keep up the good work for the next 100k subs
What is massively underplayed is losing 100 Space marines even to a legion is massive loss,if it had been the over way round Russ would have boarded the other ship and cut the head from the shoulders of the guilty party,but that prideful idiot thinks a simple sorry cuts it,no I shall make sure to punish the captain responsible or anything showing contrition and people say Lion is the arrogant one.
Yezzzz . Thank You 💪
This was an interesting story to hear as well as the part that happened in space. The old GW tale that caused the battle of the brothers was that while the two legions fought side by side, the dark angels seized an opportunity to push forward with the attack and achieved a great victory, but it left the space wolves flank open to an attack by the enemy that cost the lives of many space wolves, and thats why Leman Russ was angry with the Lion and thats why they fought.
yes that was the old lore, though the book retconed it. Which is a shame because it would put Russ in a better light.
Didn't The Lion stab Russ in the aftermath of the heresy when they met in Terra or has that part been retconned?
It’s hasn’t been reconned and it happened in Russ primarch novel.
Lion stabbed him for Russ deciding to get nearly his entire legion killed in a YOLO attempt at the Vengeful Spirit, making Terra have one less legion and one less primarch. Lion hit zero important organs, so this stab was symbolic and not aggressive.
Lion had no chance to make it to Terra after allowing Sanguinius through the Maelstrom and the Dark Angels losing 3 wings worth of vessels and astartes (Firewing, Stormwing, Ironwing), and the fact that Corswain did manage to is a blessing in itself. The Space Wolves were already there and then left.
Yup.
That made up for it.
@@Ryuzakku TBF, he TOTALLY meant to kill him until the very last second and redirecting the blade
@@seandlax9 I mean I'd be mad too since a Fifth Primarch and a fourth legion on Terra could have saved Jaghatai, Emps and possibly Sanguinius. They were against basically only Perturabo after all once the rest of the daemon primarchs fucked off.
Just listen to the Audiobiok this morning and wow really good. I believe it shows Lemans biggest weakness.
Tragic case of sibling rivalry meets especially in the case of Russ, Ego and deep seeded jealousy of Lionel. In the end it was destined to happen. Ergo the true fatal flaw of primarchs the human condition. Even the emperor must have seen this. Perhaps that was why the lost primarchs were indeed stricken from all records.
I think it is implied that Lion’El’Johnson won due to the fact that the start of the book is Russ speaking to a young Space Wolf initiate in which he states that the legend of him only ever losing one duel was false, and that there was one other that he lost. I don’t think he means in a physical sense either. I think he viewed it as a duel of ideals because post Emperors ‘death’ he is standing with Lion at a painting in the palace depicting the lion and wolf fighting the serpent. They both know it was very different to the painting, and Leman offers for Lion to strike him down then and there, so he does. Literally takes his sword and stabs him clean through. He didn’t take pleasure in it though. Leman spent months healing ( it may have been weeks ), but this was all due to the fact that he did not learn Lions calculating method of war, or rather he took it more literally in that you cut the head of asap rather than when the time is right, and so when he left terra to attack horus directly only to get tricked and be forced to retreat and not return to terra, 4 legions became 3 and his brash action could have been the difference between the emperor dying and not.
perfect stuff everyone
Colour me surprised that Wolf Lord Rho is misrepresenting the clash between Russ and the Lion.
The Lion does kinda have a track record of breaking oaths. That’s the entire reason Guilliman snaps his sword in half.
I think this story is more about Leman Russ flaw than about Lions flaw really. Yes we get see small glimpse of Lion flaw. But it more about show how hot temped Leman Russ is and also he is not mature enough. Acting like a big brother because he second finding after Horus. But in fact Lion is the big brother of them all. I think Lion showing that with Roboute and Sanguinius that Lion is the big brother. I think it have been showing again and again that os fact. And that indirect challenge Leman Russ spot as big brother. Leman Russ is big brother but not to Lion but almost to everyone else really.
At end of Horus Heresy I think that show how mature Leman Russ have become. And looking forward to see him comeback to 40k settings. But first I want my Lion to make a comeback.
This was more on the Lion.
Friendly fire sucks, but it happens... and Russ wasn't even directly involved, plus he appologised.
Russ was the real winner, he learned a lesson.
Lol yeah ignoring the hails of a friendly captain, who was trying to tell them not to fire, costing the lives of a ton of Dark Angels is totally not the wolves fault, the Lion should have took Russ's head after their dual, and mounted it to the prow of invincible reason.
I think he learned his lesson when he got knocked out
The demporer stands with you and playing 40K your way
Where do they become closer, I've not read or seen where they do? Have seen where a space wolf who's on ultramar with guilinen accompanies him when he greets the lion to havsvtheor customary duel. And the lion put only enough effort in to fulfil the honour duel, showing his feelings ngs towards the space wolves were not hostile and even seemed warm in an aloof keep I've way.
I can't help thinking of Peter Griffin vs the chicken fight.
The only time Big E, ever shouted at Malcador was when he questioned Russ and his loyalties. Big E was pissed at Malcador for such notions and questionings. E was even pissed at this fight between the two, even though, Lion and Russ became very close after such a scuffle.
Rho, as the all knowing Rout enjoyer that you are : do you happen to know if Leman Russ had any true friend among the Primarch ? From the books I read, I really felt like he stood aloof from all of his brothers. I can't help but wonder if it isn't tied to what happened to the first of the Lost Primarchs, but it's still strange to me. Do you have more knowledge about it ?
The Lion should have took Russ's head after their dual, All Russ ever does is mess things up, like when he could have end Horus but hesitate, the Lion would have finished the job there and then.
Would love in the 40k law for them to meet and just as they start to duel both drop their weapons at the same moment showing there progression....
The wolf behave like a runt that Day and not only the Lion put the wolf.in his place, he Also clean up his geneshame while Leman was k.o. cold for a Day, thats why he came.to.respect.his brother so much, sometimes we need to be humbled.
I wouldn't call Lion telling Leman that he can kill the leader a "word given between brother's" I mean leman and his legion had just killed many of his sons and he probably didn't want to waste time argueing about who gets the kill when to the Lion all that matters is victory not who gets the kill.
Then Leman has the nerve to stop in the middle of the battle instead of finishing of the leader, causing the dark angels who had already lost more men than they should have because of the wolves to lose even more men.
The dark angels legionary didn't think the Lion was in the wrong for taking the kill he just knew that Leman was going to be mad about it.
Finally Leman after being show forgiveness for his mistakes doesn't extend that same forgiveness to the Lion when all the Lion did was kill the enemy and end the battle, saving many lives both dark angels and space wolf in the process. Nah sorry Rho this is one big L for Leman.
Ahhh your voice,so calming 🤤 ❤️💗❤️
All the DA and SW meetings end with DA's dead or SW's having a temper tantrum due to their ignorant pride. The DA's and Lion don't need pride or glory, they get the job done and ask for no praise which is commendable and more efficient. Love ya WLR but I dont know why you shift the blame to the middle or on the DA's.
I think this is one of the things I hate about the representation of the space wolves (and I’m a sw fan) they’re suppose to be space vikings, powerful, strong, honourable, prideful yes but also use they’re instincts in the best way and to be calculated with it. but leman is always made a fool in situations you’d think he’d be the better in and made for, but the writing just makes him seem like angron (getting one up’d when his brothers are involved) even with him and his legion being the emps executioners they’ve never seemed like it, that or I haven’t read enough books.
I think this is why I prefer grimnar to russ sometimes as grimnar seems more calculated and strong. We never see the might that a space wolf is to be, unless it’s been one massive play and russ has been downplaying everything he’s done, playing dumb and is secretly better then everyone (I know Horus saw that with his first time seeing russ compared to the other men of his court) maybe it’s the case that russ uses his emotions too much compared to the cold demener of the lion. This is why me and my black Templar buddy always throw insults at each other XD crazy son of dorn
It just shows the differences with each legion, one thing most of them have, prideful in each their own way. Also I hate how wolf (and I love wolves) is Incorperated in everything of my legion, add change, like how you have the blood claws or the gray hunter units they sound cool and you know that they’re wolves
Did Russ ever win a duel straight up?
Huge thanks to the UK dole system, your support means a lot to Wolf Turd Rho--it REALLY does.
Lion: your face is contorting again. Are you hungry or angry?
Lion was in the right. Mission first. At the very least its how his father would have done it.
The mental juggling Space wolves go through to justify how Russ lost would make the changer of ways happy.
They do alllll kinds of mental gymnastics. I bet they have some sort of Olympiad at the Fang.
How will The Gray Knights mediate with this two legions
Just listened to this again.
Considering this equal fault is just silly.
Space wolves killed dark angels even while trying to be contacted
Russ threatens lion when the dark angels returned fire.
Russ breaks from the plan to cover up his legions flaw
Lion attempts to contact russ before killing leader to prevent more space marine casualties
And you expect the lion to have contrition to russ for doing what is suppose to be done?
The space wolves screwed up over and over again. They showed they couldnt be trusted.
1:30 So The Dark Angel’s Are Capable of Sharing Information
there isn't even a question here the lion did the right thing i would say this demonstrates one of russes flaws better than anything who knows how many lives were saved by this action imagine in modern day a war could be ended in one action but the person in charge didn't do it because of a promise to some one wed be furious
So is the Wolf and the Lion on good terms? My friend is a Space Wolves player and I’m a Dark Angels player. He keeps telling me the Space Wolves hate the DA and that the Wolf is in the eye or terra trying to find proof that the Dark Angels are traitors.
You're friend needs to start reading the novel. He is outstandingly wrong. They actually have alot of respect for each other's Legions. And the reason Russ is hunting in the warp has absolutely nothing to do with the Dark Angels. Either he is lying to you or his a idiot.
Thing is they both had the chance to finish it and choose not too , but lion had the chance first .. think on that for a moment would you ..had it been real lion wouldve finished russ when he disarmed him .
I think with Johnson being the overly logical person that he is, he simply didn't think that Russ would be _THAT_ pissed off about not being able to kill the enemy leader (assuming I understood this video correctly).
As far I'm concerned, Russ not pressing his advantage later is simply him being slow to understand how rash his actions were (there's also the small matter one of his Captains being the sole cause of approx 100 Dark Angels being killed, so...🤷♂️)
Very interesting analysis, though I think one area worth thinking on is "who is in command here?" If you asked Russ, he'd probably say it was a joint operation. The Lion would say "me." He's been assigned his mission, the wolves are merely useful allies and when the opportunity presents itself, it's nothing to do with honour or who agreed what in a plan. It's about what is tactically sound, and the Lion answers to no one bar the Emperor. He doesn't need to consult Russ to change the plan or make a strike, because Russ isn't in command here. I feel this fits perfectly with his Knightly order. You don't need to know what the commander thinks, you do as he says and get on with your responsibility. Think of things that way and then look again at the line "you can't be trusted" that he hurls at Russ when from Russ's point of view he broke his word. The Lion didn't break his word because he's the First and he's in overall command... he was originally sent because they needed someone they could truly trust in command of this campaign.
At least that's my analysis as a Dark Angel.
So the Lion has problems with the Wolf and Guilliman?
Let's be real, Russ's greatest achievement is having a tank named after him. Failed to kill Horus and got lucky with Magnus. The Lion outshines him in all aspects. S Tier Primarch putting C Tier in his place.
Lmao
Yeh
He is FAR gayer than me.
But he constantly denies his relations with Luther
He literally stopped himself from Killing Horus as he wanted to save him
@@RichardCummins1988 If only he shared that sentiment with Magnus.
@@Leman.Russ.6thLegion most pathetic comment.
Lorgar achieved more than the two of then put together. The lion is a fool and russ isn't much better. Both are bottom tier primarchs with bottom tier legions
I think it was you who said it, and I love it.
Russ is man masquerading as a beast, the Lion, a beast masquerading as a man. I think that if if they fell on each others worlds, Russ would be the ultimate Knight, and the Lion (ironically) the ultimate Wolf King.
Get ahold of yourself space pups!
The lion set this up. He gave Russ the Head of the Snake and so he could extract a price for the killing of his sons by Russ's. Russ's apologies where not enough.
Lion also left margin for Russ to complete the task but Lion was adamant in my mind that if the opportunity arose for him to take the head he would.
Did not Russ joke/treat Lion right after he apologies for killing 10 DA companies?
I am not saying Lion did the right there to break a promise. But I think stealing a kill not same as killing 100 sons even if was not Russ himself who did that.
This is 40k every minute in a battle is countless of death
That's not tragedy. That's criminal incompetence.
The Lion starts to show his acceptance of Chaos.
What??
Facepalm
Timothy are you Kairos Fateweaver 2.0?
The Lion is right
That damn autocorrect, I’m certain you meant to say wrong.
The Lion can just teleport whenever he wants?
they have lots of archeo tech from the dark ages, LOTS of it, more then any other chapter. I would imagine that porting the Primarch super accurately is easily achievable for them
Anyone in the Imperium with access to a Teleportarum can teleport whenever they want, and many Space Marine vessels have them. That said, it works by sending you through the warp so unless you are incredibly well shielded you are going to have a very bad time. Astartes usually have terminator armor on and the Primarchs all had super sophisticated armor so that would probably also work (plus being Primarchs they may survive anyway even without armor).
The Wolves are special for being afraid of teleportation.
@@specter86fl That's kind of an understatement. Their use of technology gets fucking wild in Lion's primarch book.
Dog v Cat
Its crazy that DA's players are proud of the Lion winning a fight by sucker punching. Probably because the Lion never did anything as badass as Russ's endless accomplishments.
It's really hard to call yourself the Emperor's Executioner when you get your shit pushed in in a fist fight.
You forgot being easily disarmed as well
The logic is that Russ is the outward threat. The Lion is the solution. If Big E wants to get you in line/bring you before him, he's gonna threaten you with Russ. If he wants to erase your ass from existence, he's gonna send the Lion and the DAs. Before anyone brings up Magnus, Big E wanted Magnus brought to him, it was a fallen Horus who changed the orders without Big E's knowledge.
@@seandlax9 so he's barely a threat. He's a loud dog with no teeth.
Yeah I think he might be mid class but likely lower than Magnus (when there is no sister of silence) khan, mortarion, vulkan, horus and sanguinus.
And the lion
@@bobydigital2450 oh I can't believe I forgot! He was getting it handed to him by Angron and only came out on top because Angron didn't realize he was surrounded by like 100 Wolves.
The lion stands still while the wild dog keeps barking
I mean it is cool how Russ realized how stupid the fight was and laughed about it, but damn is he not good at reading people If he didn’t see that Lion was thinking the same. Like I know the Lion appears the be bad at reading people but in this scenario Russ done goofed
Thats why he ended k.o. cold for a Day.
the thing with russ is he is perhaps the only primark that is willing to louse a fight and dosen't mind getting knocked down a peg for a good reason that being said his plot writing is pretty bad. i feel like they wanted to take some of the shine off of him that the space wolves had prier to the series in the same way the Karn got a huge boost considering he wasn't much better known as the forgotten primarks.
What can you expect? We are talking about the guy who tried to teach a ‘subtle’ lesson about dangerous implants to a guy whose dangerous implants were a cause for concern because they caused pain to override thought.
@@ONI09100 I get the meaning behind your comment but man, spellings. It's "primarch", "prior" and "Khan". Especially the last one. I thought for a moment you were talking about Khârn the Betrayer.
Why they call them self Knights when they don't have any Honor.
To me this whole thing is the wolves fault through their lack of ability to communicate.
Russ lost the fight but Lion instigated it. His cold numbness is a front or he would have not been so butt hurt about the space battle.
Is rho cause Roland?
Well the wolf did ignore communication for a second time so fool me once shame on you,fool me twice shame on me. Both winners, both losers.
Incorrect statement. In war, results are the only thing that matter. Seizing the opportunity to end the war faster is all that matters, and you even point out Jonson he tried to contact Russ.
A Man Pretending to Be a Beast
A Beast Pretending to Be a Man
Comment for the comment god
On one side is cold logic straight to the point moving on warfare of the 🦁. The other the honor/word bound emotional flamboyant 🐺. Just two sides of the same coin. Maybe one day the two would laugh about it how stupid or impatient it turned out. Wolf lord rho I like how you discibed your favorite primarch Leman Russ. I now know more about him thank to you love of the wolf💛 🐺 👑 . But for me my loyalty goes to lion El Johnson. Not for being lord of the first or first born just how he's been throughout his life. When he was alone on caliban, meeting Luther and his father the emperor of mankind, joining the great crusade, have a part Imperium secondus as lord protector(well in his own wayish 😒 I will admit that what he did wasn't thought out). And finally when I think after the Horus heresy he start to look back on his mistakes and a little reflection of his actions too. But it all came back to hunt him when he found Luther joined chaos. Now caliban is destroyed, except 😤 for lone fortress monastery now called the rock which his son's the dark angels use for a mobile HomeBase. And where he sleep deep within the rock and awakened by the watcher of the dark when most needed. Lion El Johnson the emperors exterminator shall return "loyalty is its own reward!!!!!!"😤😠🦁☠
The same coin? Nah, if those boys are on coins, they they're completely different currencies 🤣
@@henryviiifake8244 yah maybe that too 😏, one side the executioner 🐺 and other side the exterminator 🦁.
Lmao I feel the same it was justified to a certain extent but at that same time it was un called for
First!
It's all 100% Lion's fault
Russ should have left his digganobz problem to some of his captain.
So... if I've understood this, Leman Russ is TRIPPING because he didn't get to kill the enemy leader himself? 🤔
_Seriously?_ Isn't he supposed to have superhuman intellect, or something? 🤨
Weird how you glossed over the part when russ apologized, he also threatened the lion for his space marines returning fire on the wolves for killing the dark angels on the ship. Russ did nothing to difuse the situation.
11th comment
Typical wolves 🤦🏻
First! :D
I think Leman is being childish. Their job is to prosecute war against the enemies of the emperor, not aggrandise themselves and collect pelts or trophies. Lionel saw an opportunity to destroy the enemy of the emperor and took it. They are soldiers, not game hunters.
Russ at fault. Lion victorious.
What aspect of the Emperor does the Lion embody?
Knob-headedness.
so basically killing the enemy leader WAS the 'right' decision, but russ was too nutters to accept that because "muh promise". tragic.