Germany’s Sense of Itself and the World's Sense of Germany (January 2015)
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- čas přidán 5. 02. 2015
- Franziska Augstein, Süddeutsche Zeitung; Norbert Röttgen, Chairman of the Bundestag Committee on Foreign Affairs; Neal Ascherson, the Observer’s Central Europe correspondent 1963-69; and historian Christopher Clark look at recent German history and discuss how Germany sees itself and how the world sees it. Chaired by Nicholas Spice, Publisher of the London Review of Books.
The panel discusses Germany’s role in tackling the crisis with Russia and maintaining peace in Europe, the problems in the Eurozone, Greek debt, the division between east and west Germany, the nature of German federalism, the rise of anti-immigration and the development of Germany since the Second World War and following the fall of the Berlin Wall.
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Since 1979, the London Review of Books has stood up for the tradition of the literary and intellectual essay in English. Each issue contains up to 15 long reviews and essays by academics, writers and journalists. There are also shorter art and film reviews, as well as poems and a lively letters page.
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Seeing the comments demonizing Franziska only reaffirms my initial thought she's probably correct for the most part. I'm far from an academic, and have made zero dollars either giving or listening to opinions, but I know from experience that when people start labeling others as "leftist", its born out of ignorant fear of what is coming out of their mouths instead of actual fact.
+Ed Hubert Why is she probably correct? Because they say she is a brain-washed lefty?? Then she would be probably wrong. But I haven't heard so much leftist talk from her here. Don't really know what she's about.
Ed, it might suggest you are leftist yourself. Various people would say the same for words such as "far-right", "communist", "racist", "social justice warrior", "feminazi", "neonazi", etc. Slanderous labels tend to be used in an overly loose fashion quite often, especially among those driven by ignorant fear, regardless of where they are on the political spectrum. Though it might be simply because most people are driven by ignorant fear, except for a few beacons of light, such as myself.
Nonpeasant At least your are down to earth ;)
She does seem like some kind of a radical though. And I have no idea who she is, this is the first time I've seen her. For example; her idea that big countries should have a sphere of influence is questionable at best, especially seeing how defensive she is of Putin and at the same time seems anti-American. In any case who cares what Ukrainians or Georgians think... That is so redundant. Sounds like some twisted colonialism. I would hope that moderate people in Germany do not think that way. Which isn't to say that I am for war against Russia, but if one is going to criticize America for their imperialism, why not imply the same standard to Russia? In principle.
+Goran - You tell a seldom spoken truth. To admit that Putin's Russia can do any wrong is worse than swallowing poison for far too many 'leftists' these days. 'Radicals' like Franziska find it acceptable that people in the East have no rights or freedoms except those that the Kremlin finds convenient to allow.
I'd never see Rötgen being questioned like that in German television.
LRB: What is the name of the author, who wrote a piece on the LRB about the Euro, and that Mr. Spice mentions halfway through the event? Thank you.
The writer was Wynne Godley, and the article was about Maastricht: www.lrb.co.uk/v14/n19/wynne-godley/maastricht-and-all-that
ChessGM1 ł
I have been living in Germany since 1960. I am married to a German from Berlin. I was disturbed by the "tunnel vision" of non-Germans have, as mentioned by Mr.Ckak. This led me to write the biography of a German girl who was born in Berlin, bombed off, fleeing to the East, again fleeing as a teenager to the liberty in West Berlin and so on. May I refer to this newly published book called "Candlelight in a Storm" which fits into this debate perfectly: what a German really went through.
7:48 that almost looks done on purpose, look where the mic is.
Holy crap!!!😱
Maybe a new discussion with the post-Brexit and post-Trump eras?.
Sorry, I'm Canadian. : )
A very odd thing is that whenever one hears of "security needs", "spheres of interest", it is never spoken regarding Belgium, Luxembour, Ukraine, Moldova, Uzbekistan, Sikkim, Nepal, Bhutan, Taiwan. or most other nations of the world. Why? What nations are in Moldova's sphere of influence? What might make Nepal insecure and how should the world accommodate those natural feelings? What does Paraguay want - and how do we ensure it has it? Is Sri Lanka threatened? Such a topic is absurd - as it just assumes the only nations one should consider are those already powerful. THere is no reason whatever that Russia's "security needs" need be consulted any more than the "security needs" of Estonia or San Marino. "Spheres of interest" are simply the assumptions of appeasement - and should be disrespected if one is to have respect for sovereignty.
CZcams: Il "Piano Solo": il piano per ripulire lo Stato dalle personalità scomode - Gianfranco Peroncini
hahaha ok something light: 7:41 the microphone placement makes a funny mustache ;-)
I am just relieved he isn't a german speaker. Pfew.
@Deep Claymore Yes.
I even specifically said "German speaker" Mr. Smart-ass!
@Deep Claymore Born Austrian, but had to take on German nationality to get where he got....If only his application had been rejected....Reckon Dollfuss might well have given him a well-deserved box round the ears....
Why do we never hear from those who grew up in East Germany and who could give a more differentiated perspective on recent history? Or those who didn't come from elite establishment backgrounds but who have experienced Germany, both East and West as active participants not just outside observers?
Kinda hard to "experience both sides" when there was a GIANT CONCRETE have FUCKING WALL that people died trying to climb over for 30 years. You don't have to have an MBA to understand it might be a tad difficult to just walk across an arbitrary border and set up shop, SUCCEED, and live to tell the tale. wtf man smh
+Ed Hubert But the wall is gone a long time now. Also he said ppl from teh West and East who didn't come from elite establishment backgrounds.
Because West-Germany is still busy with demonizing East-German history and its people. Just imagine that an anti-communist bastion was unified with a people which desperate urged for a nationalistic unification and rejected its socialist/communist past.
World War III Has Begun; How It Unfolds Depends on Us
We think of the Russia-Ukraine war as a local conflict, but it is much more than that; it is a global war on multiple fronts. The war is not only a military conflict; it is also an economic war of attrition. With skyrocketing gas prices and shortage of staples, people all over the world are feeling the consequences of the war.
This war is transforming the entire modus operandi of humanity. Since the dawn of time, we have been accustomed to living by the motto, “survival of the fittest.” By and large, the rule was that the strong determined the rules, and the rules were often abusive toward the weak. Now, it seems like a new mindset has set in: Wanting something and being strong enough to take it does not mean that the world will accept it.
The war, therefore, is being fought on the inside no less, and perhaps more than on the outside. Our very makeup is changing from abusive to cooperative, from narcissistic to altruistic.
It hurts, and it will not happen without a struggle, but it is irreversible. This is the path of our evolution toward the purpose of our creation-to encompass within us all of creation. To do that, we must come to care for it, just as a mother encompasses her child through her maternal love.
The struggle to transition from our current uncaring and mean approach to all creations but ourselves, into wise and compassionate beings is called “the war of Gog and Magog” or Armageddon.
Since the war is about our inner makeup, we can fight it within us. If we object to struggling with ourselves over who will rule-the ego or love-the physical reality will force us to choose love nonetheless. However, it will do so by hurting us in a very physical way.
The war in Eastern Europe is nothing compared to what we might have to endure if we resist the process. The horrific descriptions of our sages and prophets hint at it, and we would not want to live through it.
Alternatively, we can fight this war within us without firing a single bullet. The choice is in our hands. All we need is to continue in the same direction that nature is already leading us: toward connection. If we make an effort to care for one another, even though initially we don’t, then we are moving in the right direction. If we try to resolve conflicts not with guns or even legal battles, but by strengthening the care and friendship between us, then we are saving lives and sparing torments from countless people.
In conclusion, let us try to rise above the hatred and see the human on the other side, who suffers too. Let us think that this war was given to us so we would think about each other more than we have so far. After all, were it not for this war, we would not notice one another. Now that it is here, we are no longer indifferent. Although our feelings our currently negative, now that we are aware of them, we can work on them together and turn them around. These are the wars of the Messiah who moshech [Hebrew: pulls] us out of the ego, and into mutual love.
1:16 if he said that to me I would have felt like I'd died and gone to heaven 😍😍💕❣️🥀
This for sure is a good format, but I am sorry to see this discussion so unqualified staffed by this german selection.
One is a politician and the other is a journalist and political commentator (which is pretty close to a politican). They have a complete lack of necessary distance to the topic. They can't talk about germany, just about what their political ideal (or nightmare) of germany is.
hell...she is german funny.... ;)
but...without the ww2 and its devastation....would germany be where they are?
Without WW II everything would be different.
Certainly not!
You can only speculate about alternate history.
Germany did not benefit from both wars and also had difficult times between the wars.
Thats why some histoirians call it the second Thirty Years' War. In comparison to 1618 - 1648.
At the time it was no world war but for Europe the consequences were similar.
You mean Marshall Plan? Because there were other plans for Germany after WW2...
Pretty sure Germany is an example of an economic union (Zollverein) that became a political union.
Well, the national and nationalistic movement in Germany has its origins far earlier than the Zollverein. So no, I don't think that is an accurate analysis.
@@mangachu3626 It is, in terms of the actual order of events and how they unfolded. Nationalist sentiment =/= a political reality on the ground. Germany started first as an economic union.
@@Cotswolds1913 Wait, are you saying here that a nation can only be viewed as such, if the "political reality on the ground" by which you obviously mean the competent power structure, because the political reality obviously also inludes e.g. the "Anschluss" (curiously anschließing lands outside of the Zollverein)? By that logic poland at that same time would not be a nation state, since it didnt have the strength to unify or even become independant. What about czechia? They only rose to power after the Habsburgs lost the first world war and were forced by the russians to give up bohemia. So before that one could not consider the existence of a czech nation and the people now living inside it must be considered austrians, since there was no "political reality" of it "on the ground"? Were the armenians not a nation when they were slaughtered by the ottomans in 1914, since there was no armenia at that time?
Obviously national sentiment IS nationalism in its humanist form. What you guys both mix up is the difference between a nation and a country. A nation is as defined in the law of nations a common people sharing a language, culture, traditions and history. In the view of a humanist nationalist (which is the origin of the term, rather than the more modern perversion of it by imperialists like the nazis) these common people SHOULD share a country inside which they can self-govern and thus self determine their own affairs. This ideal doesn't mean that this is the actual reality of how people in the world are governed. Just as there is no world wide government just because the ideology of internationalism exists.
The modern german countrys do not exist just because the common folk decided that they should. Numerous competing forces, both inside and outside these countrys, lead to the current power structure in which the german people are governing themselves. One can oppose these or prefer it this way, but it would be utterly foolish to deny that there is a german nation sharing a language and culture and tradition that is more than just a people ccidentially sharing the same spot of land within a border.
I don't like her.. It's pain listing to her for whatever reason idk
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So that's all Mrs Augstein had to say about the reunification? That's so typical for people from her region and her time.
Your type of non- comment, combined with an attempt to insult, while, at the same time, not being intelligent enough or educated enough to actually say anything that shows that you have any clue about the meaning of the discussion, is SO typical of people with your lack of intelligence and your obvious lack of life experience and/or knowledge of the subject.
@@jchang76 Born and raised in West Germany until I was 14. Went to school and uni in East Germany. Living here for 28 years now. If you need an introduction to the topic to understand my comment, then maybe it just wasn't directed at you because you don't know enough about it to know what I'm aiming at without being presented with the entire back-story. My comment was aimed at people with my background, not some foreigner like you. Reread your comment, and consider the level of bullshit you just spilled onto the internet.
@@Phunker1 Weak deflection, insinuating ignorance and assuming moral superiority. Once again showing that a university education, doesn't teach the required methods of discourse.
Oh the clear eyed intellectuals of the LRB!
Russian militarism? No problem. Reliance on Russian gas? No worries!
Referendum on Brexit? Never happen. Monetary union likely outcome. LOL! Geniuses!
Röttgen on the right side of the political discourse and the Augstein siblings Franziska and Jakob on the left... Are Schaumschlaeger... FoamBeaters
The CDU guy, the supposed supporter of a more assertive German policy reveals what this means- within the American-lead and dominated system, with the Americans telling German-lead Europe what to do. It doesn't even occur to him, probably can't even comprehend it, that Europe could be an independent player that deals with Russia with only European interests in mind rather than have Americans egging them on.
Who is the cause of the current conflict in Ukraine? Autocratic Russia is obviously far from blameless, but it's been in reaction mode ever since the Yanukovich coup, they saw it as a possibly US-lead coup (probably not exactly the case, but there is a wealth of historical examples to support this speculation) that would fast-track them into NATO (and the EU). It's the American's fault. What is the point of NATO? It has absolutely no credible pretext for existing, there was supposedly one during the existence of the Warsaw Pact, but now it's used solely as a vehicle for continued American domination and a military foothold in Eurasia. Of course the smaller states such as the Baltics and Poland would want to join a military alliance of the world dominant power against it's neighborhood major power. But is that prudent policy? Cuba didn't seem to have that choice when it wanted to join a Soviet alliance against a much more legitimate threat of US invasion and domination in the 60's. It was Khruschev who turned out to be more reasonable than Kennedy, who threatened to end the human species unless the Soviets pull out.
NATO should be dismantled, Europe should move towards a common security policy and then maybe positive developments can occur internally in Russia once it stops feeling isolated, humiliated and under attack, and perhaps eventually even integrate Russia into Europe. It wasn't like the Russians didn't float this idea around many times in the 90's (even overtures about joining NATO), but the European elites were quickly told this is never going to happen by their American overlords.
bla bla bla ... conspiracy stuff. augstein is a left wing nazi (all nazis are left wing btw, and therefor it is no surprise that NPD says the same). the conspiracy theories against usa are basically the same as the resentments from the LEFT WING nazis of greece and other southern european countries against germany.
Mike Wang What of what I said is a 'conspiracy'? I mean, you could say it's a conspiracy, but it's an open conspiracy and completely uncontroversial. Yes, Europe is a junior partner to the US and European elites are wedded to US power, Russia sees itself as under attack, the Americans have no immediate downside to the Ukrainian conflict that's why they keep egging the Ukrainians on, even though it's obvious to anyone with half-a-brain they can't win this militarily. So from your labelling, what's the conspiracy?
Blah blah this is ant american garbage.
Durk Banks Blah blah blah this is garbage I won't make an effort to refute anything, because thinking hurts my brain.
TheSpiritOfTheTimes Are you German?
sorry, from were are those Germans come from? gadaffi was killed illigaly. and i am happy no germans was directly involved in this WAR CRIME... I AM GERMAN MY ATTITUDE IS THAT I PREFERE TO NBEGOCHIADE 1000 TIMES over shooting just one bulled.
no it please ha ha
Die linke Frau nervt mich so unglaublich...
Mich verdrießt sie auch. Hat sie irgendeinen Abschaltknopf?
Diese penetrante Stimme, diese Wichtigtuerei, dieses. Furchtbare Gelabere nach Art der Achtundsechziger. All das ist eine Pönitenz.
Augstein is rambling
does one state in the us is solidarity with one other ? don´t think so. i don´t think a country is paying for another. one ist stronger (economicly) and that´s it. they can do what they want to become more sucesfull, like states in the us also, for example not having income taxes or very low consumtion taxes. don´t know what this "solidarity" means ? paying for other ´s to live. no, this is not good.
Sogo vs AEON
lockjaw = tetanus
What did Greece, Italy, Portugal et al gain from losing their respective sovereign currencies and control over their own monetary policies?
The Germans have finally been able to complete their conquest of Greece, a task that they failed to sustain in the 1940's.
@Deep Claymore Politicians aren't that stupid. If we knew the Greeks were lying, the politicians had something to gain at the coat of everyone else.
@Deep Claymore You forgot to mention an important fact: the fucking Saatchi (not sure that was their name) brothers offering Greece to take loans afrer loans and unfortunately they let themsleves be lured, also because of the low interest rate to pay back.
Great discussion. With one flaw. Such talks should be for grown-ups, not for little ignorant girls who play political analyst. Poor Mr. Clarke who had to listen to her nonsense.
ti-mur = east
Fatima is a female Muslim name.
Franziska Augstein, rich, educated in the Univerity of Sussex, PhD Univerity College London and extrem left position. Very loud laugh....what money can buy
Mr. Röttgen conceals very fine one or two US interventions in european/EU politics (which is understandable if you remember the closeness of his CDU and the USA). All I here is bad Putin is threatening WW3. And Mrs Augstein is critizied for questioning war and wanting peace. The one who questions war is allways right (In my oppinion).
Mrs. Augstein likes to listen to herself the most, I guess.
Actually she does a good job! She steps up to the bullshit flowing out of that damn cdu-politician!
35:25 very true !!! Speak for yourself woman! I am German and I totally disagree with your pro-russia pro-putin opinion.
You may be German, but you're clearly not very intelligent, because you are misunderstanding, completely, what she said, what she meant. You really do not understand her opinion - or what she speaks about as being the opinions of others, either - if that is what you think; but I've noticed this tendency to not listen well enough to one's self to truly comprehend to be fairly common among men, in general, but German men, in particular.
P.S. Germans are not pacifists, by the way. They never were. Fortunately, after their second "misadventure", pacifism was forced upon them/you. Don't behave as if, or pretend, you are naturally that way. There are still enough of us around, little boy, who remember the truth.
BTW, He is a moron, too, but at least he, as smarmy and inane as he is, knows what she is saying and with what he is disagreeing. You do not. It's quite amusing.
I am German and I totally care for the European Unity.
@@jchang76 A nation of pacifists naturally does not exist. However, the suppression of the nationalist movement post WW2 formed a genuine society, who shuns militaristic interventions and other forms of aggression. The outcome is what should be important presently; other societies didn't seem to have learned that lesson despite their questionable historical engagements. Therefore I think it ill advised to reprehend a people, whose Nazi heritage will have no chance to rise to power again. It is also incredibly narrow minded to lay the fascism of the 20th century solely at the footsteps of Germany. All of Europe dripped in it, especially during the economical crisis. In particular England still seems to struggle with this old superiority complex, that was the stepping stone for it all. On the other hand, you are absolutely right in calling out the OP here: Especially during the time of this panel (and prior to that the wars in Afghanistan/Iraq) German involvement in NATO missions, was critiqued harshly in the media and had no majority in the populus. That our OP here represents, the typical ignoramus, you'll encounter under any sort of 'leftist' commentary is of no relevance and certainly no reason to assume the country is full of repressed belligerents.
Ukraine is in the Russian sphere of influence, not in Germany's, except for the portions that were part of the Austo-Hungarian Empire.
thats not true at all, only the separatists parts are in the russian sphere of influence. Since 2014/15 ukraine was pushed to orient it self more to the west.
No more, Nord Stream 2 will bring the big change! No matter the agreement reached still lets Ukraine play a little role...
The concept of a "sphere of influence" undermines national sovereignty and should be considered a relic of the past. Of course nations are going to care about what happens in their spheres of _concern,_ but once their defence strategy involves crossing a border, it's a plain and simple violation of a nation's sovereignty, their right to self-determination, and of international law. There is a massive difference between an alliance like NATO or a supranational union like the EU invading a country and such an organization inviting that nation. In the case of Ukraine, it sought NATO and EU membership of its own accord and it was actually members of both (such as Germany) that delayed the process as they debated whether or not to allow them to join. This isn't the West working to undermine Russia's national security, this is another clear decision made by the people of Ukraine - the first being the 2014 revolution against pro-Russian leadership - to escape their eastern neighbour's death-grip and have an unobstructed path to a future of their own choosing.
And to dissuade any "whataboutisms": It's wrong when the US and China do it as well.
@@Len124 The Soviets had every right to place offensive missiles in Cuba in 1962 as Cuba had requested this. JFK's naval blockade of Cuba was an unlawful act of war.
It is up to Ukraine to decide if they're ok with that or not. Looks like you have a problem with that.
I am French Canadian around 60 yo and I didn't really speak English before I turned 12 yo so that Anglo - German conflict was nowhere near a current or interesting subject of discussion or something one would want to know more about, Hitler was a bad man but why, I had no idea, no more than I knew who Churchill and FDR were that left me without an opinion and even a patriotic view of that war and the official narrative if it.
Only when the internet came along did I plunge into learning more about the history of the 20th century and the major but strange events that seemed to be so improbable in a civilized world, the Kennedy assassinations, the world wars and the birth of the American empire and its constant and at times horrific interventions all over the world.
The more I learned the more I saw how badly we had been lied to and that the bad guys in world war two were us, the allies. Hitler's Germany did not want war, it wanted to be respected as a nation and to be considered as a legitimate partner in a unified Europe, free from the grip of international finance and the tyrannical dictatorship of Soviet communism.
Therefore it is my strong conviction that the world would very likely be a better place if that proud Germany had been allowed to survive and share the values that made her the most prosperous and joyful nation of the world in less than three years. Of course their system was not perfect but it would have been a much better starting point to build upon than the pathetic world construct we inherited from the Churchill-FDR destructive victory.
@Deep Claymore Not here.
I am german, and hitler defnetly wanted war.
The germams didnt but hitler did
@@aggravated_assault Read a few of his speeches.
@@rosesprog1722 wow if i say i dont wont to rob u and next weak i do rob u I was lying, just like hitler
@@aggravated_assault What do you think he did, can you prove it? If you assume everything he said was lies just don't read that then.
Going by wealth per adult adjusted for cost of living, Germany is most certainly not richer than Britain.
if you count like that also Greece is richer than Germany...which clearly makes no sense.
@@nightwish1000 Germany is $268,000 wealth per adult. Greece is $104,000.
@@Cotswolds1913 could you give me your source pls
@@nightwish1000 Credit Suisse are the ones who do the annual Global Wealth Report, here is their link.
www.credit-suisse.com/about-us-news/en/articles/media-releases/global-wealth-report-2021-202106.html
@@Cotswolds1913 ok, but the mean wealth per adult ist just one factor which doesn't provide information about the overall potential (richness) of a country. just as I could state that the German GDP is way higher than the British one...
why did germans hate ww2?..without it, germans would be like bosnia...think about it
+kcheok I am german and I thought about it but really didnt get it..
+kcheok You like to be a wannabe expert, who is completly ignored by almost everyone ;-)
You made it ;-D
such crap...
Germany must demand that East Prussia, West Prussia, Danzig, Memel, Upper Western Silesia, and Konigsberg be returned to the Reich.
Why
@@haydenquakenbush8626 .....Because it belongs to the Germans!
@@dieterdodel835 apparently it doesn't!
so to what "Reich" should those regions be returned to? ...as far as I know the "deutsches Reich" does not exist no more. Or are you a "Reichsbürger", Edward?
@@Flugzeug101 I am a Hamburger.
Visit a big city and walk the streets, it feels like Istanbul. Germanistan is the future.
Halts maul
The whole world is still obsessed with Germany. Obviously, everyone thinks that it should continue to be bullied because you are jealous. Good news: Germoney will soon be Islamic and no one will have to be jealous anymore.
Wenn man keine ahnung hat, einfach mal die fresse halten
Der niveauvolle Linke meldet sich zu Wort. Es ist ein Elend mit euch.
@NaikomiDu bist völlig unwichtig