WoW Classic & Beyond, an Interview w/ Kevin Jordan (WoW Developer)
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- In this very special episode of Good Morning Azeroth, Kargoz, Defcamp, Melderon, & Dunedain are joined by one of the original developers of World of Warcraft, Kevin Jordan. The group discusses the importance of Classic WoW, the future of the the Classic timeline, Retail (Shadowlands) vs. Classic, and the MMORPG genre in general. Enjoy!
Make sure to check out Kevin Jordan's Twitch channel at: / kevinjordan
And his CZcams channel at: / @kevinjordan7282
----- Defcamp & Melderon Links -----
Defcamp and Melderon TV Patreon Page - / def_meltv
Defcamp and Melderon TV Merchandise: www.brandungme...
Visit the definitive source for Classic WoW content & tools: www.classicwow....
Check out the free, interactive leveling guide by Navak & Egregious: www.classicwow....
Join the ClassicWoW.live Discord - / discord
Join the Defcamp and Melderon TV Discord - / discord
Follow us on Twitter - / def_meltv
Follow Defcamp on Twitch: / defcamp
Follow Melderon on Twitch: / melderon
If you would like to contact for business requests or general inquiry, email us at melderon.gaming@gmail.com
#wowclassic #worldofwarcraft #warcraftclassic
----- Podcast Links -----
Spotify: open.spotify.c...
iTunes: itunes.apple.c...
Google Play: playmusic.app....
Stitcher: www.stitcher.c...
Soundcloud: / def_meltv
----- Defcamp and Melderon Playlists -----
Classic WoW Guides: • Classic WoW Guides
Melderon's Shaman Guides: • Melderon's Shaman Guides
Classic WoW Gems: • Classic WoW Gems
Defcamp's Ironman Challenges Playlist: • Playlist
Melderon's Ironman Challenges Playlist: • Playlist
DefTalk Playlist: • DefTalk
Classic WoW Discussion Playlist: • Classic/Vanilla WoW Di...
Melderon's Classic Vlogs Playlist: • Melderon's Classic WoW...
Intermission with Defcamp Playlist: • Intermission With Defcamp
Super Plate Brother Playlist (New): • Playlist
Super Plate Brothers Playlist (Original): • Super Plate Brothers
----- Addon Links -----
drive.google.c...
This was definitely a highpoint in Defcamp and I's tenure as content creators!
Make sure to show Kevin your support on Twitch: www.twitch.tv/kevinjordan
And CZcams: czcams.com/channels/s2ibGVoXSsoqcbv-VKel_A.html
great video i will like to ear Kevin Jordan on tbc pay 58 boost $$$
i really think a enhancer doing 20% less dps is absolutely fair, after all he gives the entire raid 20% more dps kinda deal but atm a shaman das 40% of the damage which dienst really catch the proportion at all.
a shaman should never be nr. 1 maybe as elemental best burst dmg but if he burst his mana efficiency is too low, hes good at bursting down very dangerous targets in seconds which need to die in like 5 seconds which a rogue maybe cant.
a shaman should always be 10-20% weaker then the pure dps classes like rogue/warrior but classic atm is a MESS we have dps numbers of 3k+ for a warrior and 700 dps for an enhancer what even is this?
Almost cried in a way, when he said how the people are the content. The stupid hunter(or the fall guy) , the chill druid and the shouty tank... That is wow.
The biggest truth we never realized
Just played Classic and then Retail and I gotta say Kevin's insight is such an eye-opener. They look so similar but they're so different. I'm glad they officially re-released vanilla!
Coming for the interview from time to time. Kevin is the goat
Classic Andies are making their own community fresh on Deviate Delight right now on Era. Come through!
Kevin Jordan's explanation what makes a MMO's great blew my mind!
Awsome podcast!
where is the timestamp ?
How can this have "only" 15k viewers? The amount of pog in this episode is staggering, as the kids say these days.
Watched it three times from live until now
@@johanlahti84 Kevin is nothing short of a genius
@@DefcampMelderonTV yeah, the way he see all the little things that has such a big impact without anyone ever noticing it. Made me look at parts of wow in a completely different way. Classic has been a blessing, so nice to relive this game again. Sure it had its problems, but i tend to focus on the good parts.
This is incredible stuff!
This and the John Staats interview/discussion are just internet gold!
Congrats on everything YOU guys have accomplished. So very much appreciated for this!
This is such a great video, I'm surprised it's only at 20k! A hidden gem for sure
What?! Great upload guys, looking forward to the conversation.
Kevin calling out Ion "Pro gamer doesn't make for a great game designer" lmao golden
are they still letting Ion be the lead designer? incredible
@@EB-bl6cc There was a meeting at my work place and lead manager in anger mode told everyone that people of knowledge are not priority in our company, priority are those who obey and listen and company rely on them much more. Funny thing is that in practice, it doesn't work like that...
Kevin Jordan is 110 % right
Wish more game developers and game executives would think like him! we'd have more gems like wow classic :D
Kevin is the goat.
the undead is actually my favorite starting experience in the game, but it might be more the feel of the environment than the quests/story. Tirisfal and Silverpine are just amazing zones to be in (a lot like Duskwood actually)
Fast forward 6 months and 20 days. Yall were nerding out hard the last 2 days!!!!!
Its effen Amazing!!!!!!!
This is pure gold,more ppl need to see this.
WoW... amazing interview. That insight information killed me. Need more of this. Thank you guys.
This was real gold... or should i say "truesilver" that is better than gold! lol
There were real sparks flying in this interview. Also a lot of fun, you guys and Kevin made this a lot more entertaining than it could be. Thanks for this awesome episode.
to kevin jordan: i lived my little american life half way through it( im 28) i saw wow and cried for it never got to do it till 2019 in privates. i tried wod i thought it was an empty husk of a game world and i recognized over equlized classing setups. vanilla servers are down right amazing and wow classic is very very fun! please do more big dog i have a pc now, im ready for it!
I feel at 56:25 ish he contradicted what he said earlier a bit. He goes on about how they moved away from true hybrids because if they did 90% of the next guy's damage then they weren't viable in raids. Yet earlier he was saying that they weren't worried about that kind of thing. Still love the guy and love the talk though. Would be great to have someone like him back in control of retail Wow or another MMO.
p.s. I was disappointed he never answered the 2nd part of the question about What do you love/are most proud of in Vanilla and what did you regret/wish you could have changed, he never answered the negative side of it. Think that could have been interesting/insightful.
Thanks for the upload
Going from TBC to WotLK, Blizzard were clearly unhappy with Druids (feral in particular), since they could pretty much DPS and tank with the same spec and almost as well, if not better than other classes. So they decided to nerf them in various ways, amongst others they took away high-armor leather gear entirely, as well as split up the feral tree to make it more uncomfortable for druids to tank AND dps. That's one of the reasons I'm not looking forward to WotLK at all and will likely stay with TBC. Unless they go further down the retail-ization of Classic, in which case I might actually stop after or during the main run of TBC
One of the best GMAs so far
omg a classic wow podcast
Great work guy's! Enjoyed hearing from one of the best.
AMAZING interview guys, thanks.
Can confirm. Am chill bro. Love Taurens.
Thank you guys,for this this podcast! blew my fucking mind!!!
Really wanted to hear about Necromancer. Surely Kevin developed the class slightly before it got scrapped. Some of that class design and abilities were moved to the Warlock and possible to Priest. Other abilities to mobs like Bone Armor, Death & Decay, Summon Skeleton, .. Human Warlock class trainers are standing at the graveyard..
probably a lot of stuff that was eventually given to the death knight in Wrath.
only just found this so true and so awesome Kevin's comments about players and designers spoke to me
Why dont Riot Games, or some other company hire these absolute gems of developers from the Vanilla WoW Team, to create the new big modern days MMO, when they're clearly the brains behind all the magic and success we've all come to love!?
If I had a billion dollars I'd hire them all and give them unlimited cash and resources to develope the next big mmo hit!
I was hardcore into WoW from Vanilla into Cataclysm and I can attest to the fact that raid finder killed my guild and basically killed the game for me. I quit for several years and only now I still play occasionally but only as a solo player and guildless.
17:30
And that is what WoW nailed.
It had something to offer for everyone, and it had a lot of useless content, which, on the first time, was not apparent.
That in itself contributed so much towards everyone´s first experience.
And i think most people still dont realize it.
Useless content is important!
It's not rocket sience, even Kevin admits he's a nerd and if you check on screenshots what kind of people/players who created WoW was. In short it was a game made by nerds, for nerds. Retail is made my turds for absurds. One screenshot on the retail team made me question if it was a gang from Wallstreet or gaming devs. I had a blast listening to this podcast. Love and best of regards to you ALL from your very own oldschool nerd supporter from Sweden 💖😎
*Edit:* Kevin said it himself "flying mounts, the collision has been destroyed, flying past each other, not interacting with monsters, competing for nodes" etc. Spot on! Basicly what I was trying to say during our last TBC deftalk and why adding flying was a bad move overall. Especially on a map with far less zones than Azeroth. Yes some people loved being able to fly and their mounts. I did love my Onyx Netherwing too at first but realized what flying did for the game. More harm than good.
If WoW 2.0 comes. Allow this oldschool nerd to help out making some core decisions. Jokes aside I am happy to help where I can and have done for a good while. It's my pleasure really.
Flying was the only thing I disagreed with him on. Adding and/or designing the world/content with flying in mind is what helped to the eventual downfall.
Even on a non pvp server, I cant tell you how many Halaa pvp events we scheduled throughout the expansion. I can speak from experience that there were A LOT of hellfire peninsula encounters I had with alliance.
Even Wrath still felt epic in terms of navigating and engaging with the world. Where he absolutely nails the beginning of the end of WoW was the addition of LFG.
So many people in our guild was happy with the addition of LFG, but god strike me dead, I remember arguing with my friends that it wouldnt be long before the raids were implemented the same exact way and guess what. Cata comes along and essentially ruins any social aspect of the game by finally allowing the playerbase to do absolutely nothing to see content, but sit in town and wait for a queue.
@@dokilar1 You are free ofc to have your own opinion and (bias) thoughts. If you like some things others don't or vise versa, that's just how things go.
Me personally I always felt flying is a bad design in any mmo. It does more harm then good. It may be and feel conveniently, just like on paper LFG tool looked to be some awesome add to the game but people realized what it did for the game and the endless running between bank and AH pressing a button began.
TBC added flying, tokens for gear etc end patch of Wotlk added LFG, Heirlooms (like get that blue dungeon drop...what for u got looms). Downfall started in TBC slightly.
But was ruined by wotlk. Again some I know love wotlk with a big passion and I think that's great. I just happen to like the more oldschool way. Less QoL bs with gimmie stuff for free without much effort, ezmode hand holding gameplay, especially when leveling up on and on. Thanks for the comment. Some things I did agree with you as well.
Yea flying seems to be fairly polarizing. You're either for it or against it really and to be honest if flying had never been implemented it probably wouldnt be something I'd even have cared about.
That being said Outlands seems to have really been designed with flight in mind. The zones felt big enough to warrant it. I personally dont feel like flying has ever really affected how I interacted with the world in any profound way but again it's all a matter of opinion.
The badge gear in TBC didnt feel like, to me anyways, to be nearly as bad as Wrath mainly because in TBC the badge gear wasnt a complete set. You couldnt get a full tier set from the previous tier with badges, at least not the way I remember it. But I do agree that rewarding end game raiding pieces from LFG or 5 man dungeons was a mistake. It definitely helped players catch up but it essentially rendered the raids obsolete and that I think is also a big problem plaguing retail WoW. So much of their development time is spent on things, the raids, the dungeons, the "borrowed power" systems the last 3 expansions and then within 4 to 5 months they're worthless and nobody uses them or runs them.
Anywho, I love classic. I have been having more fun in classic than I have since the end of Wrath. I enjoy the simplistic nature of it. Theres no convoluted grind i have to log on for everyday. Theres no currency I need to farm to upgrade my gear. One of my biggest complaints with blizzard is/was their seemingly arrogant stance regarding classic. Hearing J Allen Brack essentially tell everybody at blizzcon that "they dont really want classic wow" and basically anybody who argued people were just looking at O.G WoW through rose tinted glasses was simply insulting. How out of touch must you be with your playerbase to tell them what they do and dont want?
Anyways, sorry to have written a wall of text. This was a great podcast and so very refreshing to see an OG dev with this mindset. I agreed with him and everyone else on an overwhelming majority.
"You need specialists at the raid level"
The raiding meta ruined WoW. People don't want to accept it. The reason people loved the game before was it felt like they had so many possibilities and they could make a unique character. Now you just google search a meta build.
"Not ever understands or agrees with your vision"
Makes me sad because Ion really took that idea and ran with it, much to the detriment of the game.
LFG would be awesome if it would be concentrated on only the players own realm and it didnt teleport to the dungeon, only helped create the group without being 3 hours spaming in chat with items reserved
That was the first implementation in TBC and last version for M+ in Legion/BFA just to create the grp, even tho the modern one was cross server because alot of the game where cross server and they even merged alot of servers during WoD to Legion area. Problem with the retail tools is that they had to actually ban people advertising selling/boosting in the group making tool, because people are abusing whatever they can wherever they go. Only crap part of LFG is the teleport and non socialize part of being random people from a server you never see ever again. If LFG had removed teleport and been server side only you engage with people you meet later, BUT they added phasing + X-realm with any server which makes servers a complete mess where people go everywhere and meet everyone and you cant really bring back the "Server only" option as that would not fit into the whole X-realm cluster fk they made retail into...
never clicked so fast
Nice! 🏆🏆🏆
I think Classic has showed how much the players make the world. Hopefully they do make some changes in the TBC servers. Stop boosting by having an xp decrease for grouping with people far over your level, and maybe tune up bosses. I get the no changes crowd, but, ironically, you may have to change things to create the same feeling from back in the day. So the question is, recreate the game 100%, or recreate the feels 100%? Its tough to do both at the same time.
Welp, those kinds of considerations seem to be too much for Blizzard to handle. They are probably going to change everything. We already have: in-game store, unique payed-for hearthstone animation, character boosts, 100% mount at level 40 (allegedly), and even more to come I'm sure.
Classic and BC was the best talent 🌳 ever. Love being able to be a frost/fire mage or Arcane/frost. Also happy you went back to the mana for hunters i started out as a hunter, you had to get a quiver, arros, mana, health, so many things to lvl vs what you had to for others and made it more saud after in bgs and raids since there wernt that many due to the hoops you had to go through like the hardest part for me with a hunter was getting a pet then to get it skills you had to go out and tame another pet then work with it learn and experiance other pets and then u learn there skill amd can train it to your main. Hunter was 1 of the best in classic and bc, shadowmeld was awsome, helped me get through southshore when Chilly and his friends would come through and raid or make a player think i left the area i was getting slaughterd in
@@fredriksvard2603 TBC was the best grew the most hype, ubget tongo to a new area and FLY.... areana pvp came out etc.
@@fredriksvard2603 see flying was DOPE, but it did take away from the game a little because ubcould fly over stuff, so like it was awsome but it also took away from the game in a way so flying is a hit and a miss
these guys are the beatles of mmorpgs, so satisfying to hear from the OG that all the intuitions i had about the fabric of the game, what made Vanilla so great and TBC such a downgrade moving forward. Respect from a NE hunter /salute
8:50 yeah 1 button rotation is by far the best thing a developer can pull off
Activision. Please give this man direction over classic and tbc.
The only thing I disagree with him on is the flying mounts. I think flying was a worthy addition. Game design, class design, world design didnt match what happened to the game when flying was implemented.
Games need to evolve and Kevin seems like a very intelligent person and likely would not disagree with this statement. What happened with WoW is that the game evolved WAY too fast to accommodate the playerbase
The whole 2 philosophies part... After Classic WotLK... Should be WoW 2.. No Cataclysm, no map change, no flying...
I uninstalled retail once I hit 60 in Classic. I had played retail since late 2007. I'll never go back to that crap of a game. But Classic, love it.
Cool
"very good players... make very poor designers." direct jab at Furor and Tigole
30:00
Best thing about the game really is the exploration and leveling while having people around you sharing the same sentiment.
I do not need to interact with them to enjoy their presence. It fills the world and gives life to it.
Some high notes here and there in regards of music/zones/encounters/quests/dungeons/crafting.
This journey was for some 7-10days played time, and people loved it and most of it associated with it. The fascination and fantasizing about what awaits.
Everything that came after that, is part of the same journey, just without the leveling bar.
Once everything has been explored, the vast majority quit the game.
Leeroy jenkings is something you dont need a good game for, therefore i feel like Kevin Jordan´s answer is completely out of place here. This matters to the players that remain, not to those who originally embared onto their journey, which is a very small portion of all the people who played and came to love WoW Vanilla.
But these 10% make 99% of the comment section at every wow video, which is why everyone arrives at conclusions that are very unhealthy for the future of MMORPG, and have been since.
I´d even go as far as saying that this is the reason most MMORPGs outright suck.
It is catered towards a minority of players.
Dont feel offended, it is hard to be unbiased when it comes to WoW Vanilla.
What made it so great is that it had something to offer for everyone. Now its a catered experience to a few which Jordan is speaking about.
Much respect for this guy, he has grand insight, but this one was fatally off.
From a buisness perspective, the right move. Artistically an absolute fail.
great interview, mostly, every single question defcamp asked needed to be about half as long
People are still to this day fighting over STV. Albeit in the game
yes
2:01:08 here after we got Cata classic
On the day on my birthday, this is a good present.
Kevin Jordan kinda looks like Tom Seguras Brother.
Dungeon finder is one of the big reasons why I can't bring myself to play retail.
This is just a bunch of people hoping the rest of the world sees their nostalgia filled memories as truth. A lot of these things they say retail wow doesn't have, it absolutely does. Some stuff it absolutely has lost, but not everything. These guys just want to be kids again.
He literally said that the class design in TBC was perfect haha. My god man, not even fucking close.
Dunedain needs to speak a bit more clear and louder
Ye the Torghast weekly req made me leave retail, rip retail
Great interview. Still disagree about lfg, spamming chat for hours to not find a group for anything is boring.
thats the cool thing, you add people to the friends list so after a while you have the same guys raiding together and forming that bond. I understand your point of view and is also valid point but for me I like more the old way.
20:35
personal notes:
I AM A CHAD SHAMAN TANK WHO HAS BEEN PROVING META SLAVES WRONG SINCE WAILING CAVERNS!
Why do people still think druids are bad tanks and healers? You must just have bad druids in your raid lol
Well in Classic we are flawed Tanks due to lack of itemization as well as lack of crit immunity. I tried healing, and noticed big problems with cast times (no real flash heal to speak of, so difficult to deal with high pressure situations) and loads of mana issues compared to other healers.
I'm probably not the best healer out there, but I did have a better time healing as a priest. Perhaps with the introduction of Lifebloom healing will feel a little better. It's still not a great reactive healing spell, though.
Kargoz high with the munchies and bald cut hahahah
is Kevin in on the new ex. blizzard ceo company?
More of a battle shout than a fort, just sayin
wow is a great game, but in classic a lot of potential was wasted, it is too easy to level to 60 and the professions were wasted (engineering is the exception)
burning crusade after the classic would be a big disappointment
, please give us a classic +
!
It will be burning crusade 100%. Classic+ would be fun and interesting but people are deluding themselves if they think there's any chance of blizz taking that route. The money and the (much) lower risk lies with TBC.
CLASSIC + please.
It take a while for the average person to level in classic ...
Damn dude, if 1-60 is too short in classic, 1-60 in retail is the time to take a dump
@@fredriksvard2603 YES
WoW developers - zero respect for them
all 5 of yall horde guys? damn.. feeling lonley over here
just cant bring myself to be a already defeated, green, cow man troll guy lol
nice racials but yikes your face lol
The only fun that comes from Master Loot is in the hands of raid leaders who want to please themselves, their spouses and friends. Saying otherwise is disingenuous at best. The ONLY issue I have with personal loot is that it takes away from Guilds the possibility of strategizing gear, and that's why I'd like to see the option back for Guild runs. Other than that, it's the toxic behaviour of players willing to play rulers/kings/gods that ruined the game for so many others.
Same story when it comes to "a non-perfectly balanced game can be so much fun". BULLSHIT.
It is fun as long as you play warrior, mage, rogue and get to play king of the hill while a paladin spends his/her nights buffing others, a druid has to respec Resto to provide Innervate, so on and so forth. Make the game balanced and allow anybody to play their favorite class and then, if they have the skills, to dominate the meters. The rest is just propaganda.
Even though I agree that masterloot is often misused, I would disagree with your statement. Masterloot prevents assholes from rolling on stuff they have no right rolling on, or from straight up ninja'ing. It's not always necessary, of course, if your guild is tightknit and everyone is a good person, then you can trust and just greed/need roll appropriately and everyone has a good time and it's fair. But if it's a newer guild or w/e that trust level may not be there.
Me personally I haven't been a "loot" person for a long time, if I don't get gear for a while I really don't care. In fact the challenge of trying to perform well while being undergeared can be really fun. The fun for me in MMOs comes from gameplay, hopefully some challenge, and experiences w people, not from which piece of gear I am wearing. But a lot of people take gear more seriously and you do need a system like masterloot to prevent bad behavior when trust hasn't been established yet.
@@EB-bl6cc the option here is not group loot (that's just not apt for raids, especially pugs) but personal loot. ML indeed was the cause of major drama and guild disbands. I don't eve consider drama coming from group loot bc that was doomed to happen from start and Guilds who used it were out of their minds.
@@supersolenoid Guilds disbanding from shitty human behavior is part of what makes a good MMO. Being able to do no wrong is boring. personal loot makes it impossible to prioritize progression. We are adults we don't need floaties on to swim in the pool. Eventually you gotta take the floaties off and risk drowning to be able to swim. Many players like playing support archetypes as well. It has a valuable place in an MMO
@@keeperoflore6973 I'm all for having a ML option for guild runs, as I mentioned. Not so much for pugs, unless you get warned at start and raid leader can't change loot rule amidst the run.
Being a "support" class is one thing, being unable to perform or having mind numbing rotation is another one. Also, everybody wants to be a recognized hero in the story: saying otherwise is delusional (or evidence of a potential mass-murderer personality...)
It sounds like retail is the place for you. I don't agree with any of what you said. If you find a good guild masterloot is fine. I never had many problems. I've found that most classes have their counters as well. Not perfect but the best game out there imo
EverQuest an MMORPG that was million times better than WoW is dead because of WoW. So to hear Defcamp at 2:26:02 call WoW best game of all time makes me sick to my stomach.