I’ve been water cooling wrong for YEARS - $H!T Manufacturers Say
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Apparently stacking radiators is bad -- According to the brains over at Corsair, so we built a water cooled gaming rig to test their theory.
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Props to Corsair for saying "don't waste your money buying too much of our product."
They were also correct and linus's test only proved them right.
yeah odd how "used memory" follows Moores law
I have a laptop with 16GB of ram that simply runs rings around a similarly aged laptop with 4 Gigs
it's the rig with 128GB that looks weird but I can easily make good use of that extra 112GB
render enough videos and that's not a problem
one comment and two replies that all have nothing to do with one another, reading this thread I thought I'd fallen into the twilight zone.
@@knifeyonline that's because the comments went over your head
@@Aethenthebored no
"we are going to watercool a gaming chair"
That's why I'm subscribed to this channel
Before even seeing the video I can tell you watercooling a chair is stupid, and a waste of time and money...and I can't wait to watch! Crazy stuff is what makes LTT more than just your standard tech review channel.
You’re going to water cool a gaming chair? Pah! Come back to me when you’ve water cooled your sandals and fitted them with RGB goodness.
Have they done a monitor yet?
"we are going to watercool a gaming chair... If you get warm in the summer"
That's why I'm subscribed
same here. finally my chair will be able to be black and match my setup without me burning to death.
Linus: "do your own research"
Me: "this IS my research..."
Remember kids, the difference between science and fucking around, is writing it down.
''This is OUR research"
@@YoshinoXTempest Comrade...
BloodSteyn holy shit that is actually true
itstillgot come out hot so hot air hit hot raditor won't do much...
“Now, if we had sealed off every potential air leak, it’s possible we would’ve seen something closer to Corsairs simulation. But, as far as we can tell, that’s just not a true representation of the real world. I mean, nobody would do that.”
I was really expecting you to follow up with “…or would they?”
and then show us how you sealed up all the holes and ran the tests again.
I did that before, with take and black cardboard over every sized opening. But that was more to prevent dust buildup.
Now I just use diy filters which work great.
i was thinking as he said that.. "i would"
Yeah, that would be a good test. Also, you may even see similar effects if you just have positive air pressure in the case.
Didn't he do exactly that with the minecraft server build? There's no cool air mixing in _in between_ stacked rads...
With Flex-seal, the all in one solution for sealing gaps and cracks.
Canadian air is colder and therefore has more thermal capacity.
Duh.
fuck you, just because its still 10C outside doesnt mean its cold!
@@jakobfindlay4136 Duh.
Dirty mouth.
Bad boi
Shut up, _punk!_
I like the dark theme better, it doesn’t fry my eyes at 3am in the morning.
Why so many watch movies or videos at night? It's the best time to sleep and there is a whole remaining day for fun.
Labas Labas one of two words will apply to most people. School or movies
Sir I am bamboozled by “. 3am IN THE MORNING” what else could it be bruh😂🤯😳
Panic ! Yup
Agree
Corsair: "Dude, stop wasting your money."
Linus: "B E T"
Idk, i actually don't mind sittinf through the sponsors and kinda enjoy it. Idk Linus does do it right in my opinion.
@@windicatedtaren2485 the crappy segways make me laugh
LOL i see what you did there OP .... lol corsair's shit is over priced with the exception of their PSU's( and man do i love their PSU's) but im never buying any other corsair products. There's usually better cheaper alternatives.
Lol
"you're gonna have to sit through this spo-"
*Skips 10 seconds ahead*
I would have loved to see tests where both rads get "fresh" air, and also a comparison on the tripple-stack where the outside air-draw should be minimal compared to a scenario where all 3 got "fresh" air.
yea... would have loved to see what difference just flipping those top fan around would have made.... seems like a shame considering that it would have taken all of 30 seconds.... and would have really killed or validated corsairs fresh vs case air...
The ones that really seem weird to me were those server radiators. If the airflow is in the same direction as the water flow then he's literally wasting money.
Lamus failed his university degree, like he literally dropped out [get it? ;) ] because he sucked so much. Engineers at Corsair, they passed, and they did a proper degree too... Lamus.
@@brazeiar9672 Haha! Epic funny roast (destroyed with FACTS and LOGIC!) -- pure DESTRUCTION! Put that one in the Fortnite PWNAGE compilation!
I would have also wondered if having a separate or forked loop where the either the GPU or CPU does not need to feed off hot water coming from the other to cool itself.
ALSO
I wonder is that stacked server cooler could be wasting unneeded fans and should either have used single fans on multiple stacked radiators or have benefited from having each rad have dedicated fans with their own dedicated fresh air flow and a forked loop where hot water is evenly distributed through all of them and cooled water is recombined on the other side.
'we're planning on watercooling a gaming chair'
i thought you were watercooling a calculator already
i facepalmed as sooon as he sayed it ...
Yeah, we all want to do it
John R_ might as well water cool the keyboard
instagram gang
Next video : I WATERCOOLED MY WIFE!!
I just love how they didn't take the case into consideration at all. For all we know Corsair is testing in a barely/poorly ventilated case.
To be fair tho, if all their products were tested to perform well in shit conditions than that would make them arguably better
I think they forgot to add enough ambient air intakes in their simulation. Cases usually have multiple.
Would've been nice if you tested a setup *without the radiators in series* (perhaps both outside the case, grabbing room temp air) to see HOW MUCH efficiency loss your having by pulling warm air into the secondary radiator.
It seems to me that their concern is probably less that it _wont work at all_ than that it's just plain _inefficent_
The difference is insignificant compared to adding a second radiator. The thermal dissipation gained from the second rad will far outweigh any loss in efficiency from installing them in parallel.
Or rather that is less efficient than having a single, bigger.
Not sure who it was, but either Linus or Jay, who tested with the rad as intake and as output and the difference was basically nothing.
Also saw a video about pump speed that ended up with 2 CPU, 3 GPU blocks and 5 rads and still worked fine.
So... add a control group kind of?
@@HappyBeezerStudios If you dump 10c into the air from an intake radiator, the water is 10c above room ambient, and no air comes into the system except through the intake, that 2nd rad does nothing.
To actually test the effectiveness of this system, you need to mount thermocouples where the air leaves the intake radiator and where the air goes into the exhaust radiator, and it would be better to get your results from temp sensors in the loop before and after each radiator(both of which should be identical). The CPU, while practical, is so hilariously bad a datapoint that it's useless.
Like mentioned from others i'd like to see several tests too.
1. dual radiators with fresh air each
2. stacked radiators with the warm water in the same flow direction than the air
3. stacked radiators with the warm water counterflowing the cool air (just my guess, but 3. should work best from the stacked ones)
4. dual radiators both pulluing out of the case while other radiators push fresh air in (maybe?)
Edit after further thoughts on 16.th of May to name every test that comes to my mind and compare if the arrangement is really irrelevant:
5. Dual radiators, loop in the order of CPU, radiator, GPU, radiator, pump
6. Dual radiators in the order of GPU, radiator, CPU, radiator, pump
7. Dual radiators with CPU, GPU, radiators, pump
8. Dual radiators with GPU, CPU, radiator, pump
Then we should be able to see if there's any difference at all and if it matters if you place the usually cooler running device (GPU) first or not.
Number 4 is similar to what I have set up for some folks. Two exhaust radiators keeping the bulk of the air pressure pulling in to the case and then a couple of regular intakes fans providing air to the case. Heat from the radiators was sent out of the case and cool air supplied to feed them. Never been a fan of pulling hot air into the case to warm the motherboard and other parts sitting in there.
What i would do is:
Top,Front,Back pushing air in on top and on the front you have 360mm cooler (one after CPU and one after GPU)
On the side panel you suck the air out. Then you get pretty much only cool air and therefor cool water.
It will collect heat in the middle but thats not so important, cause you have a fast air exchange thru the radiators in the middle
2 and.3 are kind of useless test: due to very high water circulation speed it would be even across all loop, differences will be less than 0.5C.
As for 1 - I think idea is not to prove that radiator is working better with fresh air - but in proving, that adding 2nd radiator after 1st one is actually works.
I have same kind of situation - space is limited, I can place 420mm on front, 280mm on top and only 140mm on back. And there is no bottom intake. And because I like dust filters - I am intaking air through 420mm rad (push-pull configuration for better airflow) and after than push warm air through 2nd 280mm rad on top. I was worried about two things: 1st - warm air strikes right in HDDs, but even if my loop running silent under load (~550w, ~900rpm, 50c-52c water temp) hdd temps ~45C. Of course with no radiator at all temperatures are much better - like 36C, but 45C is fine too, its not 50-55C as I was expecting or fearing.
And 2nd - yep, I had same idea that I am actually warming up water with 2nd rad. But I tested that idea by stopping fans and blocking top with cloth. I found out that if I am running fan on high speeds - difference is low, like 36C vs 37C. But if I am running on low rpm - results are much better, like 50-52C vs 55-58C, and that actually surprised me. I thought that less air (or slower) comes through rad - warmer this air gets - warmer air pushes through the 2nd rad, so I should see good difference on high rpm and little difference or heating up on low rpm. But like Linus said - real word is much more complicated thing. Although I am trying to reach positive pressure with 3x140mm push-pull vs 2x140mm push+140mm on back (all same rpm) - maybe it is actually negative pressure so 2nd rad gets a little fresh air too. Or maybe due to great deltaT between water and air adding another rad works better on low rpm.
Anyway even with low rpm main problem is not "hot air after rad" - but "little air after rad": I also checked temperatures with side panel off and they were the same: like my ram getting hot not because it gets only warm air - but because there is not much air moving around it. I had same issue when mounted cpu aio rad on front: cpu aio can't warm air significantly, but ram was hot too because of obstructed airflow, and not because of "hot air after radiator".
Another fun fact: with low rpm I can feel that case is warm and side panel temperature is around 35C while with high rpm it feels like room temperature. But 2nd radiator still working fine. It surprised me, but it is how it is.
@Terminator93: Yeah, makes a lot of sense to do more tets.
As Jayz has previously, when testing different Pull vs Push vs Pull&Push configurations ... czcams.com/video/IJmE13sG9PI/video.html
Also, in Jay'z experiment ... it shows having a Pull&Push config you are going to have a 20% better cooling efficiency then just Push .... and 14% better then Pull ...
Jay'z experiment, kinda tells the story why "stacking" raddors do have a better cooling efficiency ... as the leading Rad' is going to have a fan config of Pull&Push ... and the 2nd Rad is in a Push config ... meaning you are offsetting the negative of stacking Rad's with the benefit of the Pull&Push Rad config ... meaning the 1st Rad is doing most of the cooling ... and the 2nd Rad is maybe ont working at it optimum, but it's working and giving a helping hand ...
This seems like something Steve from Gamer's Nexus could do. Lot's of stats in his videos, but LTT's videos are more lively than his are.
I'd have like to have seen Corsair's input on this, clearly they have engineers dedicated to this type of thing, and it's something they're passionate about.
It’s pretty simple - ensure all radiators are being supplied ambient air or don’t bother with additional radiators. Dunno why in the test build they exhausted out the top, sucking air from inside the case across the second radiator. Just flip the fans and you’ll see a dramatic difference. It’s not like they are relying on natural convection, there are fans everywhere!
It probably works better if they're in parallel, not series? But that only works if you have somewhere for the coolants to go. XD
@@jwhiteheadcc series should be better as air going in both the radiators will have low and same temperature, if it's parallel the air going into the 2nd is already hot or at least hotter, and has less heat transfer. That's what he was talking about earlier
@@DocNo27 The sidepanel fucked up the test. the second rad is getting fresh air from an open side. If you lock it then what corsair said makes perfect sense.
Mate, don’t trust engineers. At airbus you’d be surprised how many issues get fixed by the blue collars. The real design is full of miss designs and flaws.
As long the radiator is warmer the the air passing through it will have an effect. The less different in temp the less effect it will have. So best way is to have the first radiator with warmest water to start at the exhaust and last at an intake with cooler air. This should exploit the best temp difference at both places.
This is exactly what I did earlier this year. Due to limited space in my 4U server, I double the rads on one fan. Hottest one last in the airflow. It works well and better then the single one I had setup.
That sponsorship transition was so smooth I couldn’t even tell when it started
I think the real take away is that allowing for enough fresh air intake in a dual rad system is key to making it worth the extra cost.
I like your wisdom.... 🐼
It definitely helps. But also they said removing one of the rads in the minecraft server increased temps by 5°. So not negligible either. And that thing doesn't have holes where fresh air just gets in the case :-D
No, its the amount of heat thats given to the volume of air that counts,
So if the second rad has air going through it thats cooler than the liquid in the loop then it still adds cooling capacity.
The only time thats not the case is if they are the same temp e.g. the air coming out of the first rad makes the air hitting the second rad the same temp as the liquid in the loop..
Beyond that it gets complicated to work things out because the best setup has the highest delta between the air and the liquid in the loop, but you also have to calculate that the chip is more efficient at a cooler temp so then the loop doesn't need to dissipate the same amount of heat. The you will have different loadings at different loadings which means where you put the rads in the loop comes into play and more variables etc..
It's a right can of worms.
But more = better basically :)
You missed the point completely. The heat transfer is most important. If the air is near the same temp as the radiator, the heat cannot transfer. If stacking or dualing a radiator still provides this difference, then it will work fine.
Correct me if I’m wrong please but I agree with what you said. It’s basically set up with one radiator taking in cool air through the fins to cool the internal fluid. The second one is working in the same flow but the inlet of the second one is on the hot side, which would make it, if sealed with no external airflow, a heater core. It’s bringing in the warmer, internal air to warm up the fluid rather than cool it. But with the addition of external air cooling the internal temps, it actually cools more efficiently.???
"It's free"
Proceeds to try to stack a single radiator on itself.
Better than my nonexistent radiator...
Just wait till LTT makes rads with rads in them because they heard you like rads.
Buy our new ltt rads on LTTstore.com XD
@Axel No thanks, JayzTwoCents isn't worth the time of day.
Yeah that was a stupid thing to say when you can't just get an extra rad from your pile of rads.
Missed an important point: The order the water & air flows through the radiators. For best transfer you also need to ensure the hot water from the CPU/GPU goes through the 'exhaust' radiator first, then to the 'inlet' radiator. That way the hot air is passing through the hottest radiator & the precooled water gets the cooler air from the inlet, AND means that the heat from the inlet cannot increase the temp in the outlet radiator.
Order is important!
14 1/2 mins of Jay showing why it doesn't matter:
czcams.com/video/RnPB_q51iVk/video.html
Only thing to keep in mind is that the reservoir is higher than the pump to make sure no air goes into the pump.
@@HappyBeezerStudios Different subject. That is just about the order the water flows through the CPU, GPU, and ONE radiator. Whether it makes a difference to the CPU/GPU, what order the water flows through the system. Pump - rad - CPU - GPU or pump - CPU- GPU - rad, etc.
I'm talking about the multi *radiator* setup, & the order of the water & air flow through _the radiators only._ The process of getting the heat out of the water most efficiently.
If you have the hottest radiator at the inlet of the airflow, the air heats up to almost the water temp, picks up more heat in the case & then hits the exhaust radiator at the same or higher temp than the water, so no more heat leaves the system. Yes, you get more out through the first radiator, but the second is then at best doing nothing, and at worst adding some back in.
If you put the 2nd radiator at the inlet, the pre-cooled water gets the coldest air & loses some heat, then the air picks up a few degrees in the case, before hitting the high temp water at the 2nd radiator, allowing it to dump more heat as the air leaves the case. At best you cool the water more through that exhaust rad, and at worst you do nothing.
Assuming adequate airflow...
This is particularly the case where you have stacked radiators as they showed in some scenes that they used previously.
Water:
IN Hot--->Warm--->Cool OUT
OUT Hot
@@NemoConsequentae Thank you. I am losing my mind watching this and reading everything where specific details like this are not taken into account.
There is also the bit towards the end where he said someone took one of their radiators that actually were in direct series out and saw a 5 degree increase, was that the triple rad setup they showed towards the beginning where all 3 were strapped together? Because with three the first would cool the water blowing hot air that would warm that cooler water back up in the second rad and then back to cooling the water back down in the 3rd rad. Im sure there are still factors that will impact that setup too in unexpected ways but I feel that the "Oh there was this difference in another setup that was actually in direct series." is just obviously anecdotal.
@@Benny23761 It could have been because the one they took out was picking up more heat from the hot case air, or it could be because it added a little too much restriction to the loop, slowing down the flow. Or it could have been something else completely!
Without seeing exactly how it was set up, we'll never know.
Came here to write this comment, glad to see at least someone else think of the same thing. The waterflow direction/order seems like a really basic thing to overlook on both Corsairs and Linus’ part. It’s pretty basics in heat exchange, that a crossflow heat exchanger is more efficient. That’s why the hot water must go to the rad which gets the hot exhausted air. This doesn’t really matter if your single radiator is already efficient enough, but if you really need another one, then the waterflow direction matters. I’m a mechanical engineer, working with engines (a lot of thermodynamics), and in my opinion this is a simple matter, and I’m baffled how Corsair have missed the point. Their CFD resulr might be correct, but the simulation might be incorrectly set up to begin with.
Absolutely love this video! I believe that had you mounted the 2nd radiator on a side panel as a 2nd intake radiator instead of as an exhaust radiator it would have been even more thermally efficient. Might have taken some creative cutting and mounting but I think your results would have been even better
You mean rather than stacking rads it would be better to connect them in more a side by side configuration...not stacked. That is because in a stacked configuration, the first rad cools the water and warms the air in which that warm air is then used to cool the water from the second rad.
Basics of heat exchange with Linus.
Pro tip (literally, I'm a cooling engineer): If you want a new radiator and more cooling, put the rad in with a separate airflow path. Top and front together with a bottom and rear exhaust fan would be fine.
Also, heat exchanger simulations have gotten very good now to where we see very little difference between it and the real world. The fins in the rads are tuned to optimize heat exchange with normal fans, adding to the pressure drop just makes them worse. (especially in the server example). Now, if you strapped blowymatrons to a double stack and shrouded the airflow nicely you might be into something, but one more layer of fans likely won't do it.
This really boils down to Corsair talking about performance per rad and you talking about brute force cooling. They're saying you're reducing them, say to 60% performance, but you're arguing that 60% + 60% = 120% so it's worth it anyway.
Stealthydragon Thank you!
5C less after doubling the surface aera is not really a win in my book.
Thank you! It's so sad that Linus won't read nor understand this.
Also: props to Corsair for actually caring about this stuff!
If what he's trying to do is max performance, I understand. It's Linus, it's not gonna be roboticly engineered effeciency lol.
He's not here to listen you idiot.
@@theshyboy if his trying to get max performance put the second radiator at a second flow.
Linus: does watercooling
Corsair: you are doing it wrong
Linus: why should I do it the right way?
Corsair: be a lot cooler if you did
Edit: I edited this comment so more people would see it, and *I CAN MAKE MY RISE TO THE TOP ONCE MORE....*
exhaled strongly after reading this
this is pretty cool
so stupid lol
This is a LEGENDARY drop in terms of comment finding!
yes
When 400 watts usage was impressive lmao
I know this is an old video, but I have my loop in this order:
Res > Pump (Combo) > GPU > CPU > Top mounted Rad > Front Mounted Rad > repeat
While everything reaches equilibrium, I'm suspecting since the top rad is both thicker and first after the heat generating parts, it's removing all that waste heat first, and the front radiator just expels the rest. Like a backup. Eventually, everything reaches equilibrium, but since I can feel that heat coming out of the top of my case like a furnace, I suspect it's doing most of the work. And I do have a rear case fan helping to take away ambient heat from the case, so I'm thinking that the top rad just has plenty of fresh air to keep my 980ti and 4790k at great temps. My 980ti never goes above 60C, and overall, this loop functions amazingly... So much so it expels heat like crazy.
Remember, Watercooling keeps your PC cool... not your room!
I was going to suggest that your setup is more efficient than plumbing the front radiator first. It's not clear from the video if they had the front mount radiator first in the loop or not, but from a thermodynamics point of view, pairing the hottest water with the hottest inlet air maximizes the heat transfer, because you maintain the temp differential between air/water in both radiators (hot water/warm air in radiator 1 and warm water/cold air in radiator 2 vs. Hot water/cold air in #1 and warm water/warm air in #2). It's like creating a virtual counter-flow heat exchanger. Similarly, if they're running anywhere close to capacity I would expect a big difference in cooling efficiency on the minecraft server setup if the flow through the radiators was reversed.
"Nobody would do that"
Says the man building a watercooled gaming chair
We will see a watercooled calculator soon. I wonder if it can run crysis...
And i did that. had to much sticker to much fre time
Not the chair thingy but the close every gap in the system thing. Only radiators can suck air in or out.
@@sn31t33 If you're wanting to control exactly where your air is flowing that's the best thing to do. I did it with my newest bulid. NZXT H510 is a pain in the ass case to get airflow worked out because of the tiny filtered intakes.
It was causing negative pressure with two 140mm intake fans. Swapped the filters for nylon. Boom positive pressure. Then had to seal up all the cracks. Used small weather stripping to seal the glass panel. Temps are perfect now. Some of us do that shit Linus. 😁
lmao
Hahahaha
If you stack radiators directly on each other the flow direction is important. The one that is closer to the outside should get the hot water first(if the air is generally flowing out (for example top mounted radiators blowing hot air at the top out.) . The water is after that only warm and now gets to the second radiator more inside, that has more cold air.
Fish use that same principle to maximize oxygenation in their gills. In German it is called the "Gegenstromprinzip"
Blitzkreig
Shuri hahahahaaah... no
That's the working principle of a counter flow heat exchanger
dosen't rly matter. have done watercooling for many years. If you take water temp from the start of the loop and the end it's nearly the same temp. Dosent matter if you have. Cpu-GPU-RAD-RAD or RAD-GPU-RAD-CPU exact the same temp. You are cooling water whit your radiators not the cpu,gpu block. The water cools the block. So for exampel i have in my rig 280x30 rad and 280x60 that cools the water in full load about 4-8 C over ambient temp.
@@camalbitboy think this way. Waterblocks heat up the water. Depending on the loop you have different amount of water , i have about 1,2 liters in mine. D5 pump is 1500l/min. Water in your loop is nearly the same temp. Water takes a long time to heat of and cool off. It's not a super good conductor. IF you have weird pump less setup you temp wold be extremely different because thos systems work on boiling point
I think your theory about more fresh ambient air entering the case and mixing with the hot air is valid, as well as you have more volume of water now that you have a second radiator, as well as larger surface area to dissipate heat from, which add together to give you a better cooling.
Thanks for the vid.
7:22 the way he corrected himself tho, lolll
The real question is, is 2 units in paralell pulling in air from their own side (say top and front)better than the config shown in the video
Yes, but the difference is negligible. You would also need a high CFM exhaust and a decent amount of room at the back of your case, or else your top intake is going to recycle some of the back exhaust if it is too close to a wall or under a table/desk.
@@lordec911 "negligible"? depends on the loop setup and system temperature. If your CPU and GPU are like, 80ºC, then 1 rad after GPU and 1 rad after CPU would mean better temperatures, as 1 rad will never cool down the entire system as efficiently.
Corsair is both right and wrong.
According to heat exchangers physics, you need to "crosscool".
This is, the hotter the water, the closest to the end of the flow it needs to be. In other words, the radiator the most close to the outside of the case needs to receive directly from the components (hottest water) and the one most inside (closer to the most cooling active components, like fans, needs to have the coolest water, after being being sequencially and in series piped from the hottest to lowest.
Stacking rads is the most efficient way to do it. If you do know how to do it.
Rads need to be in series. Hottest with less flow closer to the end of the case. Output of coolest water on the most inside rad.
Source: nuclear reactor heat exchangers.
Edit: Clarification and correction of incoherences. Also, thanks you guys.
Lost the LTT heart, sad. It was an honor to have it, though, even if it was only for some minutes. Thanks LTT.
Nuclear reactor heat exchangers and a pc case is not exactly the same set up thought.
Crosscooling is perfect for a nuclear reactor because you maximise the heat exchanged. Which is important because you still need to extract work from the heated water after the exchange. So it has to be as hot as possible. But you don't maximise the efficiency off each of your individual radiators.
Crosscooling is not the most efficient way to cool a PC. Your goal is not to heat a second reservoir. If you make sure all your rads are pulling fresh air from outside of your case. You will maximise the efficiency of your rads and will need less of them, therefore reducing cost or temps (depend what you want).
That's basically the point Corsair is making. "The second rad is not as useful as the first. Can do better."
Also i didn't knew about crosscooling, but it is really cool (hehe), so thanks for that.
Very well said. The goal in heat exchanger-design is always to get as close to a counter-current flow exchanger as possible, since it is the most efficient design possible.
According to nuclear reactor physics.. I think you mean heat transfer physics. Sounds a bit pompous and is wrong to call it nuclear reactor physics
Not really nuclear reactor physics, just standard heat exchangers. Basically always put your hottest source with your hottest sink, and coldest with coldest. (So water goes into hottest rad, then into colder rads). It's exactly how standard heat exchangers work to mean you can turn a 80 degree source and 20 degree sink into a 30 degree source and 70 degree sink, rather than just meeting in the middle at 50 degrees
To add on to the fact, water to air radiators are "fine" for removing heat. Water to water or water to oil solutions are significantly more efficient, if much more difficult and space/cost consuming.
Source: Water/oil exchanges mounted on the top of Porsche motors.
Short version: you can't cool something with warm air!
Makes a shitload of sense to me.
I’m liking this new type of hands-on making and testing video, more like myth busters and Ben Heck 👍🏻
The last time I heard about XSplit was when streamers complained about it for being so expensive before switching to OBS. Good times :P
The only negative effects I can think of too many rads is, diminishing returns. 🤷🏻♂️
Yeah it's what I thought this video would be about
it entirely depends on the heat output of the system and the heat dissipation of the radiator(s).
diminishing returns are still returns (looks at three radiators in Lian Li TU150).
@@A.Martin just means you aren't overclocking hard enough :P
@@flandrble if you aren't liquid helium cooling are you really overclocking?
As an AC tech I had an odd thought you mentioned those rads are in series I'm thinking it might make a difference which one is first in line getting the cold water
Water temp is all the same due to the pump speed, the temps we are working with (not like a car engine), and the way thermodynamics work.
You can put a coolant temp probe right after the CPU and GPU to get the theoretical hottest temp, then also put 1 right after the water leaves the radiators. The temps will virtually be identical due to the speed the water is moving through the loop. It’s in equilibrium.
@@DD-sw1dd physics says no.
If the radiator is dissipating any great at all the water temp must be lower after it has traveled through the radiator
@@joashparker8271 He's saying the temp difference is negligible, not that it doesn't exist at all. I don't know if he is right or not, but his position doesn't defy physics.
That said, I assume you would want the first radiator in the series to get the virgin air right? That would maximize the efficiency of the most efficient radiator. (Edit: I guess not. Seems counter-intuitive.)
@@dude6935 What's the go with the profile pic?
I'm familiar with the < logo but not that variation
The rads cool the water not the pump. Don't loose your focus on the point. More rads, more cooling. Not optimal in a stacked config but effective. Ambient air is outside the case. After air flows through even one rad that air is no longer ambient. As long as the air that is being pushed through the first rad and into the second is cooler than the water temp in the loop the product temp will still be improved. If the first rad is so efficient as to be putting so much heat into the next rad,( over the total temperature of the water in the loop) the you will not benefit from the second rad in that series config due to heat being introduced into the loop form the second rad or your own doing or efforts/ mistake! That's the vid or blog I think Linus was trying to demonstrate.
"You're going to have to sit through this segue."
Me: This is the power of 「King Crimson」
The thing here is that the temperature gradient is not as high for the second radiator as for the first. therefore the second rad won't be as efficient as the first, but that does not mean that it has no effect. and stacked radiators do not slow down air enough to "hold back the heat", especially not if you make a rad-fan-rad-fan-... sandwich. if you use a fan-rad-rad-rad-... setup there will be a point where more rads will negatively impact thermals, but that would need tens of radiators so you'll never reach that even in a server scenario.
bottom line: the effect corsair points out is a thing, but it's not relevant for real-life usecases.
Cool, sounds like you read out what the video said.
also with 3 rads you have more thermal mass of water - it takes longer to warm it up, so you're working with lower temps to begin with.
I fully agree and you have worded this way better than I was willing to in my comment.
@@goodman854 which is also not correct, check out my comment...
Lamus failed his university degree, like he literally dropped out [get it? ;) ] because he sucked so much. Engineers at Corsair, they passed, and they did a proper degree too... Lamus.
"you're going to sit through this se-"
*presses right arrow three times*
Half the time this just turns the volume up....
Use J, K, L for skipping/pausing
matias but j,k,l skips 10 seconds, arrow and space skips 5 seconds
@@matiaseklund837 txs
yeah as soon as i smell the slightest hint of an in-video advert i start scrubbing that time bar for the next scene, sorry Linus but your being used by advertisers for airtime and they probably pay you half what they pay TV channels and they even make you create the ad...
Well, in a thermodynamic point of view, Corsair is right : you are cooling your second loop with hotter air than the first. But you system seems to prevent heat buildup inside the case.
HOWEVER, you could use two radiators to exchange heat with the fresh exterior (instead od stacking). That will be way more efficient... but requires a ton of room you may note have in any casing.
(love your work BTW)
I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with all of the factors you named at the end. The trick with radiators is that the fluid isn't one temperature inside the radiator, and neither is the air. The faster you blow the air through, the less it'll heat up, and the faster you flow water through the radiator, the less it'll cool down. So you have this crazy 3D temperature gradient inside the rad from bottom to top and front to back. It would be really interesting to put temperature sensors on either side of the components in the loop to see how they vary around the loop, as well as in the case to get an idea of the air temperature distribution.
Hold on, DARK MODE THEME ON THE INTRO!? Thanks linus for not blinding my eyes
Yeah thx linus 👍🏻
It should stay like this I alway watch videos at 3am 😂
You only have one eye?
@@IuliusRubicon done
@@ThatGuy001 ty
ambient temperature: 21°
coolant temperature: 31°
* Laughs below tropic of cancer
Laughs in equator
I live in Michigan and I always put my PC's in the basement 50°f or 10°c for most of the year.
Giggles in Australian... Oh look the roof is on fire
21°C is like the maximum temperature in December where I live. That is literally winter for me.
@Serzap Might have been better to say "* Laughs between the tropics".
It's not wrong to say Antarctica is south of the tropic of cancer.
To understand the basics of the engineering behind these arguments, a good resource is the datasheets at Koolance for cold plates, heat exchangers, and pumps. Without having to do the heavy lifting calculations, you can observe from the various data plots that total fan CFM is a major figure of merit behind the maximum TDP. Flow rate and radiator size (thickness, number of fins) all appear to be secondary contributors. Radiator area contributes in the sense that it potentially adds more fan CFM.
ah yes the easy, free, fun benchmarking marking i can do with all the spare h100i's i have lying around
He meant benchmarking your system in general for people who already have PC's....
Corsairs' rad calculator is basically right but likely lacked the required data/specs of the exact cooling system units you used, so the substituted it with "generic data",
Their heat exchange calculator is likely based the same type of calculations (thermo-dynamics & fluid dynamics) used for building HVAC Systems and Vehicle radiators/intercoolers when perusing maximum cost to efficiency of any heat exchangers.
A.
Their feed back on your 2 systems were likely based on:
1. The HackPro (1 front intake rad & 1 rear exhaust rad), where the first rad pulls cool external air to cool the first loop.
This results in the air leaving the first loop and, being hotter than ambient.. increasing the temps within the case.
The now already heated air inside the case, was then used to "cool" the second rad, which then finally expelled the even hotter air out the back.
So though it may not necessarily be pointless (depending on the spec/parameters of the loops themselves, additional exhaust ports, etc), it is definitely not the most efficient cost to performance setup.
Simplified solutions - a. Add an intake fan to the top of the case & flip the front rad to blow outward or
b. Add an exhaust fan to the top of the case & flip the rear rad to suck in
2. The Custom Minecraft server (Stacked rad. build)
It follows the same principle above increasing the temp of the air leaving every rad then entering into another. It's just a matter of inefficiency.
Simplified solution - Take the exact series rad configuration and turn them parallelly with a radiant barrier between them and you'll see a greater value.
I'm unable to say just how much gains you'll see without knowing the full loop's specs.. but yeah, you get the idea.
B.
And finally, the reason you got a better reading with your test system at the end of this vid, is actually kind of simple and obvious..
You actually used 2 feed separated, perpendicular intake systems that both pulled cool ambient air thru them, with case exhausting the hot air thru its rear.
So it pulled from 2 cool sources and shared a single exhaust point (which is near always the best solution for this type of scenario).
If you used an exhaust fan at the back, it would increased your efficiency even higher, as it was only operating on compressive force (a high positive pressure) within the case to discharged the hot air, rather than a "guided controlled flow".
Again, there are actually a calculations for sizing the fans to give a desired low positive pressure, or even a negative pressure and determining what is the best to maximize efficiency for each scenario.
Think of it like this.. when increasing voltage for overclocking, there comes a time when the increase of voltage consumption vs the gains seen aren't efficient anymore.. even if minor gains are there.. well this is basically the same thing.
Heck, even these radiator systems could be made more efficient with the introduction of thermostat units (like nearly every other rad system).. but I'm sure on this small scale they are left out because of the cost/savings just aren't worth it and they are already able to reach the required thermal control.
I learned things, thanks for taking the time to expand on this video
They are wrong for a slightly different reason, but you still do have a point:
And here is the thing: how hot the air exiting the radiator actually is, doesn't only depend on efficiency but also on flow rate.
Very simply said: you can heat up one cubic foot of air by 10 degrees, or heat up 2 cubic feet by only 5 degrees. The only way to get the air exiting the radiator to match the temp of the water (in a cocurrent setup) is to have a low airflow. *And In that case you're limiting the efficiency of the first radiator!* You want the whole surface of the first radiator to be in touch with as cold air as possible, including the exit of the radiator. You want the air to be refreshed before it gets a chance to really heat up to make the first rad more effective.
This boils down to: Corsair is only right about the 2nd radiator hurting performance if your fan is too weak to supply the first rad with enough air. Fair enough...
---
IF their radiators could operate at near 100% efficiency, then their words would make sense. But that could only be the case when you have a phase change (like in HVACs), when you compress the air (with real compressors, not with a fan), or if you have a countercurrent exchange setup (like industrial heat exchangers).
^^If any of these 3 is the case, then the air exiting the radiator can be hotter than the water, and then I would agree with their theory.
---
I don't agree with your statement about diminishing returns. Computer builds aren't that close to physical limits, you can push it quite a bit in every direction you like. There is so much headroom that physical limits don't play a role yet. And computer cooling is a rather primitive setup (like no phase change, etc.), it's simple: want more performance? -throw in more air, more rads, etc.
But you're god damn right that they probably used some kind of standard model for calculating. What they mentioned is actually a big thing in HVACs and other industrial setups.
Actually a lot of students and engineers don't really understand the subject they learn, but they just copy one example project that their teacher taught them, and apply it everywhere. But they forgot it was an example, it's one of the ways to tackle a problem, it's one sort of problem you could face; and they treat it as if it's a universal method for anything. When I was a student it really bothered me.
It's really annoying when your fellow students get something wrong, when they don't want to listen to you explain why it's wrong, and especially when their idea didn't work out at all and you're the one fixing it last minute. And this happened on every single project.
jo jace right. It’s basically one bigger cooler moving more cool air. These aren’t really stacked.
why do I think that he made those calculators xD
@@Skylane_Pilot The "Series" arrangement is a Stacked unit
A Parallel/side by side arrangement, could basically equate to a bigger cooler
Someone is losing sponsorship from a certain computer accessories company for the next few months.
Ooof
There's no such thing as bad publicity.
You are correct Sir.
i dont think so
nope
at 1:30 you have shown an image of the case that we can call as a loss as mechanical engineers. you can say that 25c air is passing the first radiator at a temperature of 30c, entering second radiator at 30c existing at 32, entering the 3rd radiator at 32 exiting at 33c.
we can expect water temp as following : at rad 1.... 40c in, 35c out, at rad 2... 35c in 33c out, then at the third water will reduce almost out at 32.
so the Q the heat you sucked out by the first rad have been good and the watt you used to do it is small when you calculate the Q of rad 2 and rad 3 compared to the same watt which is fixed to circulate water across a single rad.
the best thing is to create air ducts by 3d printing as example giving fresh air at 25c to all rads and same duct to suck each rad hot air out of the case on another direction away off the intake.
if you are interested, make someone comment back to me, i can give you some drawing or 3d drawings for printing based on your rad dimensions
"Ive never done a side by side comparison" Then goes on to NOT stack radiators for a side by side comparison, and has the first rad in the loop from the MB as a exhaust and second as intake. Completely different than what he had done previously, and not at all what Corsair was saying.
Exactly what I was thinking!
Watch from 6:40 and he makes the change to the same machine they were commenting on, and the temp also increased
@@Jonno12345 All he did was remove a rad, should of just not stacked them and used them all as intake. Probably barely cooler that way, and probably impossible to actually put back in the system in that configuration.
Corsairs comment wasn't about stacked radiators though - It was merely about utilising more than one radiator in a system, though.
Did you even watch the video?
@@christoffermaintz781 No i just commented on something from the video without watching it, cause im magic like that.
Linus: “Do your own benchmarking”
Me: “okay, let me order what I need“
My Bank Account: “Bruh, not even close”
But wait... he said it's free though... no bank account needed right? (Except for all the spare parts needed to test all different configurations...).
@@fayenotfaye aliexpress waterblocks are absolute garbage and not worth using in a water cooling loop.
@@fayenotfaye They perform like ass, you might as well be on air because they lack the microfins to efficiently get heat from the CPU into the water. Which makes them perform no better than an air cooler that's still much cheaper than buying a whole custom loop, which makes them pointless.
My bank account: "lol no, are you nuts?"
true
Corsair: Buy less of our equipment, might help
Linus: Nope, buy everything they have, will help
Weird marketing strats.
Well it got LTT to talk about em... from what I have purchased from them they do not make terrible products at least.
any publicity is good publicity, right
But Lunus got what Corsair were saying wrong. Corsair didn't say you couldn't run two rads in a system. They were saying that you need to make sure all the rads are either sucking air into the system or blowing air out of the system. By having one sucking clean air (thermally) into the system and one blowing dirty air (thermally) out of the system, you reduce the capacity of the second rad to dump heat in the air. Remember, heat always travels from areas of high heat densities to areas of low heat densities until an equilibrium is reached. That's one of the rules of thermodynamics, and you can't violate it. While I don't think they're correct in that the second rad is functionally useless, I'd have to guess it's running at half it's functional capacity.
I’ll just stick with whatever the Verge tells me
Well done on the testing and proof! Always love the content!
"It's Easy, Cheap, and Free!" if you have a warehouse of liquid cooling parts laying around.
Linus! Let me play in your warehouse!
the benchmarking is free! the components to bench, not so much
Yeah let me go buy 20 rads and 500 fittings so I can do my own research on the subject like Linus asked.
When the beard goes, I go.
joe jerrard-adams I’m also now used to bearded Linus
joe jerrard-adams It’s gone. Check his Instagram
Im with you
I give you my word that we will all pretend to miss you.
LinusBeardTips
Hey Linus, I reckon it would be great if you could write a paper on this with a research question that falls along the line of effectiveness versus efficiency. 😊
He can't, he didn't even consider heat capacity, despite how obvious it was in the data.
The main reason that stacking rads works is not just to do with the airflow. It also has a lot to do with water flow rate and surface area. When you had one rad, you were heating that rad up to a specific equilibrium temperature, let us say 55C so the air leaving it was 55C, but when you stacked rads, both rads are seeing a new equilibrium water temperature across double the surface area since the water flow in the loop is high enough to keep both rads within a few degrees of each other. So if your room air is 20C you might reach an equilibrium temp of 35C because the air leaving rad one maybe picks up enough heat to increase the air temp by 10C and then that same air goes through the second rad and gains another 5C before exiting the second rad at 35C. The efficiency of the second rad is diminished by the warmer air but that warm air is still far cooler than the single radiator because you have the air spread across a larger surface area so each rad contributes something to the cooling and also increases the overall capacity of the cooling loop.
Still waiting for water-cooled linus
they actually could do that with a watercooling suit
Blood cooling
@Supreme-485 Nah. That's what sweat does. If anything blood is a heat spreader
It's called sweating son, and there are racing shirts/suits that give you extra water cooling
Water-cooled Lie-nus
Linus should hit up Engineering explained and look up the Honda Civic modding community to do some research into the physics of stacking radiators
This one /watch?v=Ldfuzy_JJUo
@ömer kahyaoğlu I doubt all that many physicians are watching :-P Think the word you're looking for is physicist
YES 😂
Yes while the principles are there, its actually not even remotely the same, nor is it under ideal conditions. A car Radiator, and A PC radiator are 2 separate kinds of beasts due to environmental factors - We have a thing called Scientific Method that we use to establish Fact and Theory and the amount of variables to apply must be limited and controlled before establishing facts or theories.
czcams.com/video/WpwnCfB9URs/video.html - here is the video
The problem with using a car as an example is the Fans are there to ensure there is a level of minimum air movement through a radiator, the faster you force the air through the radiator the cooler the air needs to be for max heat exchange or delta as the air does not have enough contact with the surface area of the radiator to pull off the heat.
Honda Civics are cheap cars, not racing performance cars, they are not designed for continual high speed applications without reengineering and even then they are still subject to a certain level to the original engineering, air speed is at a constant variable hence their data really is invalidated by them not understanding this.
As an example a 3000GT VR4 had stock Radiators, Oil Coolers and an intercooler not stacked but separated with only slight overlap because the car was engineered as a performance level vehicle from the get go at the engineering level, and then you have the crappiest engineering like the 470Z that liked to overheat because Nissan didn't make the car properly and did not design the front nose and radiator system to handle track use, causing owners to immediately upgrade the radiators to handle the V6 under the hood with the air moving too fast for max delta thus causing overheating.
Nocturnal101 Ravenous 470z? That exists ? I thought it was a 370z? I’m getting old
Thia is a suggestion if you have enough time please try.
While stacking radiators arrange the loop in such a way that the rearmost radiator is where hot water reaches first. The semi cooled water from the rearmost one flows next to the one in front and so on. And cool water from the radiator in front to the heat source.
This will make sure air flowing though first radiator is cooler than water in the second and same for the next.
I had a couple of configurations with two rads in the Phantakes Evolv ATX and X. with intake fans on the front and outtake fans at the top I was getting really bad performance, like if the second radiator was actually pointless, not completely, but nearly there.
I then set all the fans as exhausts and the water temperature dropped significantly. I would guess that the water temperature would drop even more if I set all the fans as intakes, but I don’t feel like dumping all the hot air inside the case would be beneficial.
Generally speaking in builds with multiple radiators I always found out that all the fans on the radiators should be pushing air in the same direction to prevent feeding hot air to the other rads.
It feels kinda awkward for the airflow, but we talking about watercooling so it does have a logic if you think about it.
"just like in the simulations" -Cosair
Linus: You're gonna have to sit through this segue.
You underestimate my skip button.
@@AngryMobYT Just quoted what he said.
double tap... and boom... gone
@@johnnyxp64 There are extensions that skip them automatically even
@@Gamer-df9xt How would you know what he said if you skipped it?
@@DankoleClouds I quoted what he said before the ad.
1. if stacking is necessary, hot inlet last, cool outlet first
2. internal ducting is an option, put those old rh board Dell shrouds to use
3. if one shrouded and one case air, route the hot water to case vented first
4. if you split flow, one pump on each fork if possible
Yeah, I just went through this with the case being in the way of the rad and fans. I put the fans on the outside of the case, Rad inside the case. Didn't work well. I cut the top of the case grille out, the remounted the Rad on the outside of the case. Then out the fans on top, drawing air out of the case, got +3c to cooling, even more significant at higher Temps.
Its all about airflow over the rad. More Flow, more cool.
Also, cooler air = more cooling and heat Transfer/exchange.
"You're gonna have to sit thr-"
*Hits right arrow 3 times*
:)
lmao same
that smiley got me
Yeah I was boutta type the same thing 😂😂 swear the sponsors only pay for 10 second slots lmaooo
*taps 3 times
They prey on the apathy of people whose hands are too far from the keyboard or too not on a PC to bother for 10 seconds saved.
“to find out what they said, you’re gonna have to sit through this seg-“ *skips ahead 15 seconds*
10 secs is enough actually, I just skip 10 secs and iam like at start of the intro :)
@@LinuxUser123 and then another 5 seconds to skip the intro.
Shit man I'll skip a good minute or two just in case sometimes, and not caring if I miss actual content at this point. I just spam the L key.
@@Maccaroney Big brain move.
2 words, sponsor block
Interesting and good information. I'm about to install and operate a liquid cooling configuration similar to how a commercial airplane cooling system works. I've installed both types of systems and interestingly AIO system is similar to one of them.
The main issue is the airflow rate, if you pull air through the radiator too fast the air leaving the radiator hasn't absorbed the heat as efficiently as it could, therefore it is still able to cool the next radiator/device better with a greater differential than if it was tuned to its radiator. The results you have perfectly demonstrate this.
Now if you were run the fans at their most efficient for the radiator they were mounted on they would regulate speed to get the most efficient differential across that radiator and the leaving air temperature would represent the Corsair model. Try measuring your radiator off-air temperature and slowing them down to get the peak off temperatures according to ambient (this is the most efficient way to use them, and of course consider the minimum speeds the fans will run at being their lowest load matching ability, sometimes you stop fans and run a single at low loads too etc.)
Corsair seem to be basing their data on running radiators and fans as efficiently as can be (as industrial applications do) and not just pumping air across at higher than required efficient speeds, otherwise lots of equipment around the world would just have massive fans mounted, running too fast and running less efficiently sapping up more energy than required.
So, to recap, your setup is flowing too much air and is inefficient, you've not even considered minimising energy usage and these factors all need to be considered in designs so you aren't losing energy and costing more for no gain. Granted the few pounds on a domestic setup is not going to break the bank, but it is wasted energy and money.
So I am with Corsair and their model is correct, running the fans efficiently and correctly to match the radiator load, the leaving temp is higher and therefore has less cooling potential afterwards on the second radiator.
...I'm surprised this was never considered as you are normally a bit better at the lateral thinking, maybe Steve (GN), Jayz, and/or Der8auer can get involved ;) (just check for thermal paste on the CPU Jayz :P)
Love all you lot and keep up the good work.
LTT: has been water cooling wrong for years
Manufacturers: *_that's because you're doing it wrong_*
ok
You know what is right this video 😘
Check it out
czcams.com/video/EFQYnMk0PuU/video.html
Dinusha Jayaranga no
ok
Dinusha Jayaranga stfu
corsair: "using rads behind each other in a airflow starved case is bad"
corsair: "using rads stacked on top of each other is bad"
linus putting another rad in a case with a completely open back: "look how much it improves cooling!"
He did address it tho :/
it still makes it a bad example to adress the whole issue.
@@infi84
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this pretty much the scenario Corsair criticized them with their Hack Pro build?
Plus he stated that even in the server removing one of the stacked radiators resulted in a rise of temps of 5 degrees.
Yeah I don't know if they're just trolling Corsair now
Keep in mind he a) did state that this wasn't the system design Corsair simulated and b) that they *did* take out one of the stacked radiators from the system Corsair simulated, and found that the temperature increased 5C, so the stacked radiator was having some effect. In the end, he was advocating for you to test for yourself, and use some critical thinking and reasoning, rather than just go with whatever the manufacturer states.
I do not know about stacking radiator cooling performance but I know industry scale 100kW water coolers. There was very little tweak to make system way more efficient. We increased the circulating water capacity. Even tiny external 200l barrel on intake changed everything. If you can make outside PC case the nice little water tank then you can increase the water capacity. How little or big external tank, it depends about materials, design etc. I could use the polycarbon from side by side tank. Lets say random number 450x450x50 internal dimension, it gives to your system 10 liters extra water capacity. Any small leak, no big deal thanks for external design.
EDIT: Also you use the coolant hose too wrong. Why you need the all same size? It is better if you use the pressure side the smaller diameter and return line the wider diameter hose.
Another way to test this theory is to take the incoming air temp vs exhaust air temp. My setup does that and the air coming out of my case while warmer than ambient is only a few C higher. Now I do have a lot of rad space which results in really low DeltaT of my water. The point is though that even 3 rads all dumping hot air into my case and out of another rad doesn't raise the temps to my water temp level. I would say it is about middle of the difference between the 2. So with a deltaT of 5-6c you would see air temp at the exhaust side around 2-3 c higher than ambient
They were critizing you running hot air over hot rads....and if you were gonna remove a stacked rad make sure you still had the same amount of pump flow and coolant volume. And they were trying to point out the push pull configurations for example cpu coolers don't apply in the case for radiator probably
The reason why using the same air for multiple radiators does work is simple and has likely less to do with those additional case holes: When cool air passes through a hot radiator, it only carries a portion of the heat away, slightly decreasing the radiator/water temperature while slightly increasing the air temperature. Unless the air moves really really slow, air and water/rad will not reach equilibrium. So while using a 2 stack radiator doesn't double cooling performance, it certainly does still improve it over a single rad. Keep adding rads for less and less improved cooling in return.
The slower the air moves through each radiator, the lower the additional cooling performance per radiator stack will be. The higher the temperature delta, the more effective cooling (transfer of heat) is.
What might be interesting, is whether these additional holes in the case are actually hurting or helping cooling performance. These holes might cause warm air that has just recently been released from inside the case to be sucked right back, essentially forming some small invisible "air loops". It might be better to seal off the holes near the exhaust of the air to make sure there is no suction happening near it, pulling in that warmer air again. Tho, it might be even too negligible for any kind of measurement? Who knows...
You up for some duct tape (test)cases, LTT?
By having a radiator on the intake, the heat it dissipates goes INTO the machine. Putting it on the exhaust means it's drawing hot air across it. You're fighting yourself both ways. You keep thinking "inside the box". Boxes need to change. Sticking the fan on top was actually a step in the right direction. Mount the radiator outside the box too if you want it work the best.
Perhaps someone could build a case designed for water cooling. With a separate compartment just for radiators and fans. Main compartment, intake and exhaust fans blowing through front to back and top. Your water cooled components run lines to the separated bottom compartment of the case which has it's own front to back airflow and radiator mounts.
Both compartments only get fresh outside air coming in. Your case would just be a few inches taller. A little dead air cavity or some insulation between the two compartments.
My old rig at home uses Freon and a compressor. ( I stuck a window AC unit in the room and my case is right in front of it).
This is why both my front and top radiators are intake, with a 120x38 exhaust fan in the rear. works great.
Process engineer here, I often do chemical simulations involving heat transfer. I think I kind of get Corsair's point, even if the wording is not correcto IMO: if you add more dissipation surface, the temps will always be lower. However, for a fixed exchange surface if the temperature profile is flatter (or DTLM as is known in heat exchanging), the total exchanged heat will be lower, leading to less bang for your buck. You can even get a reduction in heat exchange if your temperature profile difference is too high depending on the exchanger thermal approach (the effect is less wanky and counterintuitive if there is no fluid phase change, like here).
Also there will be some effects on the boundary layer size impacting the boundary layer conductive and convective coefficients, but I'm not going to touch that with a ten foot pole as it's way outside my field of expertise.
Yeah, it did sound more like Corsair saying "this is less efficient/good-value" (with an implication that you should just get a bigger rad or keep them separate). But I've only got the screenshots of stuff shown.
It's probably because they've got a person with a similar knowledge background working as Linus' contact. It is very possible that the guy merely looks at the numbers in simulations without the addition of the multiple potential variables that can completely throw your predictions off.
Although same note as you. The entire field of thermal dynamics is completely outside of my realm of expertise at the moment. I'll let those with more knowledge handle that, simply because I lack the time to build the base of knowledge to trade any blows... as of this moment.
I wonder how much of the advantage is just based on more water in the system with the other radiator.
@@testlap7951 Not much. Let's over-estimate the water in the second rad. Ball park puts it at about 130 ml, so let's call it 150. That means an extra 6100 Joules to reach a 10 degree delta, or about 15 seconds at 400 watts.
Corsair had an interesting point which seems to suggest it's better to place the rad at an intake. Because the steady state water temperature going into the rad will be much less than the component temp, it is possible for outtake air that has already air-cooled some components to rise above that. (Of course this would just push up the hot water temp closer to the component temp and the cooling would still work, but it would lower the exchange.)
I think maybe Corsair was trying to make a diffrent point here .... cooling would be better having the radiators side to side than face to face.
Also,
what if you put both radiators taking fresh air from outside and the vents just taking the hot air out?
PS:Are you conecting the radiators in parallel so the IN of the second one is connected to the OUT of the first one?
Is the hot water going into the 1st radiator first or into the 3rd radiator first?
I love you guys but sorry, your experiment is not very scientific. Not a really good empirical test I beleive
True. nothing to do with what corsair meant.
Couldn't have said it better, not a good empirical test.
As he said in the video, took what he said with a grain of salt.
"Also,
what if you put both radiators taking fresh air from outside and the vents just taking the hot air out?"
This.... This will create positive pressure on the inside, bringing cool air from the out-side, over the rads, picking up a little heat, then forcing the warm(er) air out of all openings and gaps, also preventing dust ingress through said openings and gaps... this is how I setup my PC's 99% of the time...
Air Cooled components often vent into the case also (such as Asus GPU's have an outside>in configuration) - so forcing this warmer air out, faster is better...
@@Ghozer I mention that in my comment. Agree with you
@Obi Dark no, thanks
"Staking radiators is bad".... tell that to the auto industry that has stacked AC condensers, oil coolers, transmission coolers and aftercoolers in front of radiators for decades with no issues. ;)
People are having issues with the civic type r. the inter cooler dumps its hot air into the cold side of the rad. Swapping the upper an lower rad hoses and having the coolant flow the opposite way through the rad helps with engine temps
Would you prefer all cars be 10' tall like semi's so you could single stack all your radiators?
Would be really awesome if you measured the air temp or coolant temp after the radiators with a thermocouple, especially for like a stacked radiator setup to test how much cooling the 2nd and 3rd rads added
The big thing is, from what i can see in the emails from corsair is that they are critiquing the stacked radiators with fans not a case with multiple radiators in different places.
They removed a radiator from the stacked Minecraft server which the second email was about, increased temps by 5 degrees
That proved an inefficient radiator is better than no radiator. What would the temps be if the 2 rads were separated?
@@brye5235 Well, that's over $150 of radiator for 5 degrees...
What corsair is saying is that 1mm thick radiator would be just the same as infinitely thick radiator. the radiators wont heat the passing air to the same temperature as the water. Nothing is that efficient at heat transfer. Therefore having the air pass through more radiator will heat the air more and cool the water more. There is diminishing returns as the exhaust air temperature gets closer to the water temperature and it would be more efficient to have all radiators get fresh air but there is literally NO scenario where adding more radiators would hurt the performance as long as the pump can pump water through all of them.
@@chrisbm Well when you get to near peak quality, you need to spend increasing amounts of money for a minimum amount of improvement; this is seen everywhere, the price of a 2080 ti, sports cars, high-end clothing.
Actually Corsair is right. WHEN YOU stack radiators and DON'T CONFIGURE them in COUNTERFLOW, meaning when you hot water enters the coolest part or your radiator (the first radiator). In this case ur water is cooled down and the air is warmed up. So far so good. But at the next radiator ur cooled water is forced to deal with the already warmed up air. This Effekt faster gets to a point where your cooled water can no further be cooled because of your warmed up air. You will better prevent this when you feed your hot water into the hot end,meaning the last radiator. Then your hot water is cooled with the already warm air from the other radiators. Then the cooled water is further cooled by less hot air. And at the first radiator your chilled water is cooled by the most possible cool air, ambient temperature. Using this called counter current model provides the best temperature differences between water and air regarding the complete cooling system. Because ur coolest point of water is at the coolest point of your air. That's why counter flow models are widely spread in the chemical industry, where cooling efficiency is lots of money and a security issue.
bruh
*Acthyooally
I was hoping they'd test this, I thought that was the point of this video. More heat exchangers with ambient air is obviously going to cool better
This comment was better than the video. Science!!!!
That doesn't make corsair right, at best it means they're not completely wrong.
I reversed the top mounted fan to blow air DOWN into the case. I got around 4 degrees lower CPU temps simply because the 120mm radiator fan which is positioned at the rear, gets fresh air, with no "thermal load" from any other components. Also got much cooler RAM.
When i set it to pull hot air out of the case, CPU temps go UP because it pulls how air coming up from the GPU and other stuff, but GPU temps go down just a little bit, around 2 degrees.
For maximum cooling efficiency without compromises, you should modify your case. Make a separation between the CPU/RAM and the GPU. Give both sides one intake and one exhaust and you're golden.
"you are going to have to sit through this se-"
me - KING CRIMSON
*intro starts*
It just works
"It is not efficient to stack radiators" i think this is the correct statement
i believe so too, i think the real reason, why the test setup ran cooler is because of the second radiator. there is more water in the system which is hardern for the cpu and gpu to keep at a high temp. (imagine cooking pasta with one liter of water and compare it with cooking 10 liters of water. if you dont change the heat source it will take much much longer for the 10 lieters to start boiling)
@@jakobwehrstein1302 You have NO idea what you're talking about. What you're talking about is TIME TO REACH STEADY STATE, which is something they addressed IN THE VIDEO, but it still EVEN AT STEADY STATE was 20c cooler than without the second rad.
Not to mention if EITHER of you idiots would actually LISTEN to the video, he said they removed 1 of the 3 STACKED in the minecraft server and saw temps go up 5c.
@@jakobwehrstein1302 Not completely, since it was clear from the graph that the second setup wasn't going to reach the temperatures the first one did. The second one never got to 'the boiling' point. The more the water the longer it takes, but it would eventually reach the same temperatures if that were the case.
@@shawnpitman876 Umm yea thats what they said, cooling a radiator with warm air isnt as efficient as cold air. And of course the cooling system for the server ran hotter, Jakob made that point. Less water means less heat distribution means hotter water, exactly what the second comment said.
@@robertmaldonado2819 Less water means less time to hit steady state, nothing more. You're only proving how little you know about the subject trying to claim otherwise.
ambient temperature: 21°
Me in Chennai,India: "Oh my! These guys must run some pretty ballin industrial grade AC at full blast for these tests!"
Yup pretty much same in kolkata 😂
Yup it's a massive one for sure, It gives on average 10-20*c lower themperatures in summer and can go as low as -30*c in the winter. So it's really fantastic, and it doesn't even focus only on the house. Nah they use this thing on their entire country. It's sometimes so cold that some individuals use what we call heaters in their houses, it's ridiculus.
It does give some fantastic temps for cooling your PC though...
no one gives a shit bout india
@@Saj123 we don't want your shit.
@@sayanghosh622 oh yeah Kolkata is also additionally much MUCH more Densely packed 😅
6:03 that fan in the back is obvoiusly blowing the air out based on which way its blades are curved. Which doesn't necessarily mean the air doesn't flow in through there, other fans may pull more air and do so against this one. But generally you do want to have the aitr coming out of the top anb back of the computer, because that's where the hot air would naturally accumulate (the fans working with convection instead of against it, and a computer usually stands against a wall from behind, so no fresh air there), and enter through the bottom and the front. And that's where the rads would ideally go if there's enough room for them. There can also be holes in the sides to avoid the interior heating up from the rads on all intakes.
It makes me wonder if it was the second radiator or rather the extra air flow from the additional fans. Have you tried any tests where you left the extra fans but not the extra radiator?
There’s one other possibility: the assumption that radiators are near 100% efficient and effective is wrong.
yeah thats just obviously wrong to me. im sure there exists a radiator somewhere in the world which is nearly 100% effective, but like...watercooling radiators come in all shapes and sizes, and one of the benefits of open loops is that you can use thicker and larger radiators than closed loop coolers tend to favor, thus resulting in better cooling. that wouldnt be the case if all rads were nearly 100% efficient.
And its in fact a open system. Not a closed system. For a closed system also stacking up is fine as long as temperature gradient exists
They almost certainly would have never assumed that though in their simulation
@slashbashin they state that with a water temp of 40° you'd get the air to 39° after passing through just one rad, which is bs
@@tobymarol7329 did you test it?
I'd like to see Corsair do an experiment and made a video call: $h!t that Linus said
Imagine every brand making "$h!t Linus says" video on every bad review linus does XD
@@zarmaanful ikr, I really what to know what $h!t Linus said. Come on guys, proof that Linus have no idea what he is talking about!
@Advocatus Diaboli Correct. They took for granted that any fan speed/size/type together with any rad (size, thickness, FPI) will transfer 100% of the heat that goes through it. That's veeeeeeery ignorant and honestly can't really imagine having an engineer saying such a dumb thing.
@@ReHWolution I build cars for a living... you wouldn't imagine the stupid shit engineers say every single day...even when presented with irrefutable real world proof that they're wrong, 'well the computer says...'
You should do a countercurrent exchange to improve efficiency. If you put the radiators in series and have the hotter one as the exhaust, that should work.
I have lots to learn when it comes to computers and I hope not to insult, I really like your videos. I am left with a bigger question, would 1 radiator of equal size of the 2 used in second test run cooler? It didn't appear to me as a fair test. I am going to be attempting to build my first water loop soon and that answer would help me decide which case to go with.
Linus: "Do a little benchmarking on your phone"......
Having a hard time trying to find a phone big enough for a triple rad setup.
Nice profile pic
In the 80's, we had some big enough.
Double rad is all you need.
Hahahahaha
Asus : " hold my beer"
I’ve been water cooling wrong for YEARS.....says the guy who water cooled his whole room
...with zero effect.
Linus: I myself am watercooled "drinks out of an LTT water bottle" and brings up LTT store
Well.... He did that wrong. In multiple aspects
Anyone who's got experience with water cooling and plumbing could have seen the problems he had with WRW temps and growth AS he was building the system in the vids.
ThrashingBasskill false. The effect was creating a loop that is perfect for propagating microscopic organisms in water!
Watercooled chair, what's next? A watercooled mouse pad?
I would be interested to know the coolant temps entering and leaving each radiator. I would be willing to bet that the exit coolant temp of the first radiator is still higher than the exit air temp. on the stacked setup I would bet the best config would be to have the air exit side be the coolant hotside and the air entrance be the coolant cold side.
true, opposed flow or watever it's called. Works borth for fish gill blood flow and heat exchanger coolant flow
I didn't get it :(
Corsair was talking about stacking radiators one onto another so that the heat from the first radiator goes through the second radiator (not cooling it as result).
So you would need to compare two stacked radiators vs two "chained" radiators to see how much stacking affects cooling efficiency, no?
At the end of the video he talks about how they removed one of the three radiatiors from the mc server rig and it increases the temps by 5c this proves that if you stack radiators you get better results. You can even do more than two.
@@RoaldBosman not if you attach radiators one to each other. That will not improve anything. And this is what Linux did in his previous experiment. Which is dumb for the reason I have explained in another commnet.
@@RoaldBosman it only really makes sense if you can supply fresh, ambient air to the radiators. If you can’t, because you are stuffing way more crap into a 1U server case then is reasonable, it quickly becomes a matter of diminishing returns.
He starts off the video talking about the temp differences between ambient air and the coolant temp and how the overall heat carrying capacities are dependent on that - then pretty much ignores it for the rest of the video :/
@@biomorphic what do you mean by attaching them to each other? Stacking radiators against each other? Having the same water run through radiators stacked against each other? If so it does work it's similar to increasing the thickness of a radiator, it's just not as effective at cooling compared to putting it somewhere it gets fresh air.
@@NeoKingArthur it depends on your situation. In server rack cases a lot of the time you don't have the space to get clean air intakes for every rad so you work with a suboptimal situation. The point wasn't to get the best cooling solution, it was just to say this does work you can get more cooling. The rep at corsair was saying that you get no increase in cooling capacity or could actually decrease your capacity. That is what they are talking about, not what is actually the best way to get the most out of each rad.
“I’ve been water cooling incorrectly the whole time” LIEnus confirmed
#LIEnus
What I thought
illuminati confirmed 😂
czcams.com/video/EFQYnMk0PuU/video.html
Dinusha Jayaranga stfu
is it much of a LIEnus moment when the title is a "Shit Manufacturer's Say"
It's kinda like the "Water cooled ram" you know immediately that ram ain't water "cooled" before the episode starts.
This will probably get lost in the comments, but I'd like to see what happens when you equalize the number of fans on the radiators. What I mean by that is; In the first test there was two fans mounted to the radiator, and two fans mounted to the top of the case to exhaust heat for a total of four fans with only two of those fans mounted to radiators. In the second test there was two fans mounted to the front radiator and two fans mounted to the top radiator for a total of 4 fans with all 4 fans mounted to radiators. We already know that setting up fans in a push+pull vs a push OR pull results in lower temps across the board with lower fan rpm. While theoretically, putting two fans up top to exhaust heat would result in the same temps as 4 fans mounted on one rad in push+pull, for the same reasons as stated in this test those fans are also drawing in cooler air from the openings in the case and not just pulling more air through the rad. Long story long, I'd like to see this test again where the first test has 4 fans running off a single rad in push+pull, and the second test has the 4 fans split between two rads. I'm willing to bet that the 4 fans in push+pull actually do an equal or better job of cooling than when split between two rads, more similarly resembling the models seen by corsair. Why is this worth testing? 4 fans mounted on 1 rad is a lot cheaper than 4 fans mounted on 2 rads...
A big reservoir helps a ton unless you have prolonged work loads (gaming sessions, with appropriate rads and pump are not that bad). Many times people simply have a crap pump, crap or inadequate fans, or just too much stuff for the radiator(s) to handle. I am shocked at the performance of systems I have seen with a CPU and graphics card with a single 240 or 280 rad and they are wonderful. Most systems with tons of radiators run silent (low fin density, ultra-low RPM fans). That is cool if you need that, but custom loops are far more impressive than people seem to think.
Most of us stopped using them out of pure laziness.