At 3:00, I actually experienced that state of mind once. I was playing at a local Smash tournament. Previously I had only played against casual friends and won without thinking beyond level 1. In this tournament I went up against a player who was *just* more skilled that I was challenged but I could win--I did manage to win one set. At a certain point in the match, time seemed to stop for me. Instantly Smash changed from a fighting game to chess--or to be more accurate Rock-Paper-Scissors. I carefully considered all of my approach options and all of his responses. I never experienced anything like that before, or since. I think that's the kind of state professional players experience all the time, and I can understand why they'd want to make a living using that state of mind.
This is called Yomi Levels Level 0 is analogous to level 4 even though level 4 is obviously a more complex thought pattern. This is because The answer given by Yomi level 4 would be the same as the answer given by Yomi level 0. You can expect everyone of tournament professional quality to already be at Yomi level 4, so the contest then is to be able to cycle the default move (The answer given by Yomi level 0) through the Rock-Paper-Scissors game slightly faster than your opponent. Too slow and they can read you and punish, too fast and you over-predict and do the move their move is good against. If an opponent isn't at Yomi level 4 (0-3) yet then they are unable to cycle at all and winning against them is mostly trivial. Note that Yomi level 0 players can throw off an expert momentarily because their answers are the same as level 4, with the exception that they can't cycle so they are still easily beaten. --- The Rock Paper Scissors Tournament Meta actually makes decisions in groups of threes. As in, you choose a set of three hands every three hands then do those three hands no matter what. While this does mean you could lose three hands in a row off of a single decision, the benefit strongly outweighs the risk. Now you're making a much more nuanced size-27 decision which makes yourself much less vulnerable to being read since your behavioural tells don't as strongly correlate to a single one of 27 decisions as it does to one of three decisions.
I used to play a game which enforces a Rock-Paper-Scissors and Coin Side Game (ie: 3 choice with a "triangle" or "two choice game" where they have to pick what you picked) and used this type of thinking mixed with the conditioning clause. The game had earlier matches lose much less "currency" than later ones, and so I would normally choose say, Scissors or Tails my first try. If I win, I carry on with the switching so that I choose what beats what I picked, as they are more likely to switch off of a loss from the first try. If I lost, I then choose the same to read my opponents level of thinking. If they still pick the same, I know they are likely choosing off of conditioning and switch. If they switched, they expected me to switch off of a higher level of thinking. I then switch either way on the next but decide the one after based on this thinking. If it was conditioning, I choose the original. If by thought process, I stay on the new one (or in the case of RPS, I switch to what beats the new one.) I actually never thought of it as a theory, but it's great to finally know the name of it.
This is also why fighting a CPU, even a high leveled one, isn't beneficial after a certian point. If you've ever went for an airdodge read against the computer you'd know it seldom work; as a level 9 will airdodge an attack if you do one and wont if you dont. As a result; players fighting a cpu will ignore these conditions and mindgames, and by the time they fight an actual player they will only have the skill of a level 10 CPU, with the repetetive actions and movements just like one.
This is the problem I face as a player that only had time to practice alone. I thought I was pretty good at Smash after watching pro games (I certainly didn't think I was anywhere as good as them, but at least I knew most of what I was doing) and beating level 10 CPUs - it does not translate in the real world.
This video series is nothing short of amazing content, I truly get hyped whenever I see these in my sub box. I know it takes you a long time to make these, so I appreciate the hard work you put into them; keep it up!
Once, I was playing against a friend of mine. He chose Bowser and I chose Robin. I noticed that he always used his down special whenever he was in the air and I was below him, so I began to go beneath him in purpose so he uses the down special, dodge and use Arcfire on him before he could move, which gave me an opportunity to combo him. We were doing it over online, so he didn't realise that was what I was doing and continued doing it as a result. I won without losing any stocks.
Missing a tech and doing regular get up works a lot more than people think and can put you in less dangerous spots than rolling where the opponent can attempt to read and punish. Dem invincibility frames can also be used to avoid getting punished with a projectile with the right timing.
Back Pack Well, competitive Sm4sh is mostly a game of matchup and character knowledge, rather than reads and mind games. There's a lot of truth to what you just said...
This is a really well detailed video about mind games, thank you for creating something like this! I just want to clarify something though, you talked like the range and neutral mind game presented in the video is different from other fighting games, although the concept exists in all of them as well. Take any competitive match of Tekken to watch, and you will see that during most of it players are at a long range doing nothing but backdashes and forward dashes figuring out how to approach their opponent and how to get into their ideal range. The same goes for a match of Street Fighter, when you are in a full range a fireball is not much of a threat to you, but if you are in mid range, then the mind games begins, where you have to guess if they are going to throw a fireball so then you can read it and jump, or if they are not going to throw a fireball and you have to play footsies because if you jump then, you are going to get hit by an anti air move like Shoryuken.
Speaking of conditioning, I was playing against a Mario as Luigi, and I conditioned him to air-dodge after I grabbed him multiple times. It got to a point where all I had to do was down-throw, wait for him to come back down after air-dodging, then up-b. He left the game soon after that. Needless to say, that was some of the funniest shit I've ever done in Smash.
It's honestly pretty self explanatory... The reason I said it was a meme (I wasn't just being ironic) is because nobody uses the term in a serious context. It doesn't actually mean anything because its not an important fighting game term... Like okay...I got killed by Ganon's Side B off the stage...I just got *DISRESPECTED* How is that different from dying in any other way? You see where I'm getting from this... Though I would LOVE to see a video of that title made by a less serious smash tuber than this one, it would be funny to see what qualifies as "disrespect" and what doesn't lol!
+Daviator el Quesillo so would using a quick, but weak attack against a shield stunned opponent rather than winding up a more powerful attack be considered disrespect?
Just a nitpick. Smash 4 actually has higher Shield Stun than Melee. However, dropping your shield in Smash 4 is much faster than in Melee and also aerials in Melee generally have lower landing lag due to L cancelling existing. In addition, the existence of buffering makes it very easy to always act on the first frame that shieldstun ends in Smash 4, whereas in Melee you generally always act a frame or two late. The result of these factors is that despite Smash 4 having higher shield stun, shielding is a much safer option than it is in Melee.
I'm only watching to stay ahead of my friends who I know watch this channel to improve, since they don't seem to study as it is, and as a result, this channel is their only intake of smash info. Thank you for providing me a way to essentially stomp out a friendship.
Mr.choke is the greatest mind game of all time, intentionally losing nationals so he can catch everyone by surprise when the next EVO rolls around. I got him all figured out.
I don't play smash much anymore, but this really helped me understand the whole "levels deep" thing more intuitively. It's not just a matter of "is my opponent currently at level 2, 3, or 4?" guessing game stuff, instead it's based on real human tendencies, immediate wants, behavior patters, and etc, and it happens without even thinking about what level you're currently on.
Mind games in psychology is used to define three forms of competitive human behaviors: a largely conscious struggle for psychological one-upmanship, often employing passive-aggressive behavior to specifically demoralize or dis-empower the thinking subject, making the aggressor look superior; also referred to as "power games". the unconscious games played by people engaged in ulterior transactions of which they are not fully aware, and which transactional analysis considers to form a central element of social life all over the world. mental exercises designed to improve the functioning of mind and/or personality; see also brain teasers or puzzles. The term mind games was first used in 1968. Mind games in the sense of the struggle for prestige appear in everyday life in the fields of office politics, sport, and relationships. Played most intensely perhaps by Type A personalities, office mind games are often hard to identify clearly, as strong management blurs with over-direction, healthy rivalry with manipulative head-games and sabotage.The wary salesman will be consciously and unconsciously prepared to meet a variety of challenging mind games and put-downs in the course of their work. The serious sportsman will also be prepared to meet a variety of gambits and head-games from their rivals, attempting meanwhile to tread the fine line between competitive psychology and paranoia. 1In intimate relationships, mind games can be used to undermine one partner's belief in the validity of their own perceptions. Personal experience may be denied and driven from memory; and such abusive mind games may extend to denial of the victim's reality, social undermining, and the trivializing of what is felt to be important. Both sexes have equal opportunities for such verbal coercion, which may be carried out unconsciously as a result of the need to maintain one's own self-deception. Eric Berne described a psychological game as an organized series of ulterior transactions taking place on twin levels, social and psychological, and resulting in a dramatic outcome when the two levels finally came to coincide. He described the opening of a typical game like flirtation as follows: "Cowboy: 'Come and see the barn'. Visitor: 'I've loved barns ever since I was a little girl'". At the social level a conversation about barns, at the psychological level one about sex play, the outcome of the game - which may be comic or tragic, heavy or light - will become apparent when a switch takes place and the ulterior motives of each become clear. Between thirty and forty such games (as well as variations of each) were described and tabulated in Berne's best seller on the subject. According to one transactional analyst, "Games are so predominant and deep-rooted in society that they tend to become institutionalized, that is, played according to rules that everybody knows about and more or less agrees to. The game of Alcoholic, a five-handed game, illustrates this...so popular that social institutions have developed to bring the various players together" such as Alcoholics Anonymous and Al-anon. Psychological games vary widely in degrees of intensity, ranging from first-degree games - socially acceptable - to third-degree games that are played for keeps. Berne recognized however that "since by definition games are based on ulterior transactions, they must all have some element of exploitation",and the therapeutic ideal he offered was to stop playing games altogether.
So let me get this right, Mind games are games you play in your mind so games play mind games that mind the mind games allowing games to play games in the mind games while actualy mind games mind a game with the mind games in a game. That means games play mind games in minds where games give mind games to the mind so games can be mind games in the mind from the game. Huh, I thought mind games where just games in the mind being mind games for the mind in the game. Right?
What does my opponent think I think my opponent thinks I think my opponent thinks I think my opponent thinks I think my opponents thinks I'm going to do? (Level 9 CPU thinking)
Chike Esedebe Ikr? I remember getting mad at people who said CPUs were nothing but a punching bag, but after playing with humans for a while, I now understand them lol. It's ridiculous how they can respond perfectly every time, and yet you don't improve since M.G. don't work or they fall into the same many times.
Dude amazing video. You made something that's the definition of confusing into an understandable topic. I knew that they were options based on past experiences, but the examples you threw out there were great! It's awesome to see you include every smash game as well. Great work as always
One of my favorite mindgames is to randomly throw out strong moves, and follow up with a quick attack. For example, as Dedede, I throw out an F-smash, and then immediately follow win a down tilt. People always run in for a punish, not expecting such a quick move to come out.
5:41 Shield stun is actually higher in Smash 4 than melee (according to formulas on Smash Wiki) What makes shield pressure so much safer in Melee and 64 are the options used for shield pressure have far earlier FAFs than that of 4, allowing some moves to be more frame positive or neutral. Largely due to L cancelling and Z cancelling respectively. edit: Shield stun in 64 is ridiculous though.
SomeWildGaming I think it works in a parabola, meaning -3 is the same as 3. -3 is what does my opponent not think I won’t think they won’t do, meaning “what does my opponent think are the options I won’t use”, basically.
For anybody that thinks that smash is all RPS, know that the better players get better not only by figuring out the pattern and picking good options, but more importantly by risk reward. You want to set yourself up in RPS positions that favor you, and the risk reward should skew what you pick. Take the shield/grab/attack. If you are fighting an opponent with a kill combo off a grab, such as the cargo kill with DK, you want to generally play around that strongest option more. But at the same time your fear of that option and want to avoid it makes you more predictable, but that isn't always a bad thing. As the DK you want to go for the grab more often than not, whether or not it's predictable, because you want the opponent to respect your good options. Be willing to show that you will spam it if you need to, and when they are convinced you want the grab and you are in a position to gain a lot off reading said avoidance of your grab, then you make your move and do something like a short hop dair to cover their grab on your shield. Being better means being willing to understand not only how much risk reward affects the gameplay, but also being really good at putting yourself in those strong positions. This is how PPMD is so good at neutral despite playing almost entirely around fast hitboxes and movement, the advantages he gets in neutral are a bunch of little strengths like taking space that rarely risk him getting hurt but always giving him more and more advantageous positions. Also the movement options in melee are the reason people in the community call it deeper or harder, it's not that it's faster it's that there are more things available to you at all times making the average neutral game mix up much more complex. You can essentially use your whole tool kit almost anywhere and control what space you play at on a whim if you master it, moving in and out of places where you threaten an unreactable move or decide to just back up instead and Jebait the fuck out of them. No ish to smash 4, it's amazing, but I just wish stuff like not being able to immediately shield out of run didn't exist. It alone limits way too many characters.
This is actually a fantastic tutorial! I find myself watching CZcams tutorials and occasionally losing track because I don't understand, or I sort of zone out for a bit or get distracted, but this tutorial had a decent amount of engagement and perfect information flow, making for a video I understood perfectly, and I can apply this knowledge very easily! Also, Feesh's art is indeed very good. 9/10 cookies.
low-key super glad you have a shout-out to the artist. my first thought seeing it was, "oh who did he take this uncredited work from" but then you came out in the end. good man. rare stuff to see online.
Love me some mind games, nothing is more satisfying than having a fire fight or dodging snipers in tf2, then suddenly stopping dead still and staring whoever you're fighting down until they try something. Really throws them off and hasn't failed me yet!
Something interesting i thought you guys should know is that fear makes people take less risks and anger makes people take more risks. Zoners should capitalize on making the opponent angry and exploiting their opponent angry and punishing unsafe approaches and grapplers and heavy hityers can focus on countering options that make players feel safer like rolling, shielding, and dodging by using patience and mindgames like tomahawks
Fun fact: Reading the mind of the opponent is used for the Japanese word Yomi. People used to describe things in Yomi layers like Yomi layer 1 is “I’m gonna throw you and your gonna block.” Layer 2 is “You know that I’m gonna throw you so your more likely to jump.” Layer 3 is “I know that you know that I’m gonna throw you so instead I’m just gonna do a normal.” It keeps going up like that.
Definitely one of my favorite videos by you. A lot of my friend say "why do you play smash or any video game? It seems pretty easy, all you have your do is press the good buttons." I feel this video can show people why I (and others) love smash as a game, and why the complexity of these things are much more than performing the right series of inputs (oh wait... Bayoneta mains...) jk, bao is bae.
i want to thank you smash corner, ive been playing smash since 64 but never bothered tryin to go pro or learn any advanced techniques and thanks to you my knowledge on not just smash but other fighting games has increased significantly.
1:25 But then you have to think "Does my opponent think I'm overthinking it?", and then "Does my opponent think I think he thinks I'm overthinking it?", and then you have to think "Does my opponent think I think he thinks I think he thinks I'm overthinking it?"
That reminds me of a story back from the Smash for Wii U days, I was on For Glory and facing against a Link. I was Falco. The match was really heated and eventually lead to Sudden Death. The Link kept his arrow on max and I was really close, one wrong move and I'm dead. I dash dance for a split second, fast fall and use down-b, pulling out my reflector, the Link thought I wouldn't react quick enough and shoots, which ends the battle with a reflected arrow, killing the Link. The mind games were REAL
My personal hints on mindgames: - if it's getting too complex, do something simple - save your reads until you can take the stock - it is likely, that a player under pressure will chose the opposite of what he/she normally does
I'm trying to get into competitive smash and your msc special series is really helpful I've been playing for glory for about a year now but when I got into it I didn't realize how complex the competitive scene was this series really is great by starting with a simplified version and slowly getting deeper keep up the good work
Conditioning isn't a necessary part of resets (though it helps). Resets are done because they allow someone to drop their damage and use the positional advantage to put their opponent in a mixup for more potential damage. Even if your opponent knows where your reset is, they still have to eat that mixup (not counting reversal options out of it, which can usually be baited).
wow. you made this so painstakingly clear. this is so well-edited, and it's clear you put a lot of research into this. lots of respect towards to the makers of this video.
That was a great video! I remember getting pissed at people making once-successful tactics into always-failures. The video helped me understand more behind the scenes of the actual movements on the screen and how most of them have a reason. Oh, and that Critical Distance concept really helped me improve my M.G. Love your work. Keep it up!
I think normally rolling is the best option if someone is advancing to me because no matter if it is an aerial, grab or shield. You get the choice to counter attack or move back. Might just be my play style.
i think shulk's monado arts keep the opponent on there toes , they don't know what your going to pick so they have to : 1: just deal with it or 2 : go in and attack you which can be easly punished by a vision
This video... It's an actual demonstration of how much I think about the current match I'm in. Whether it's smash or any other competitive game. Believe or not, I never knew that the level of mind games transcend this deep. And that's what makes it all better too.
Your explanation of the levels reminded me of an episode of samurai jack where jack and aku keep trying to justify their thinking by going like "I knew that you knew that i knew that you knew that i knew that..."
Smash 4 actually has more shield stun than Melee does. Pressuring shields in melee is just easier because there's no buffering and shines and l-cancelling allow for quick successive attacks.
On the topic of soft and hard reads, I've always defined a hard read as heavily committing to punish certain options, not necessarily a single option, but its involves using a move that will put the player in a bad position if it doesn't work. A soft read would be covering an option in a way that is non-committal, or just safe to use even if it doesn't land. Nice video regardless.
a good mind game is short hopping, then doinga counter, as my local tournament had loads of bayos and shieks up smashing when they thought I was going for a fast fall neutral air
Great video! In retrospect, I've done these things without necessarily realizing what terms they fell into. Great job! I'll definitely do my best to keep this in mind the next time I'm Smashing.
the only mindgame I am good at is deep into a match I suddenly use an otherwise bad (but not slow) move to catch them off guard. Examples of this are Dedede's inhale, links grounded up B, etc.
the only thing I am thinking off by mindgames is Sonic fighting Metal Sonic: "you might know everything I am gonna do, but thats not gonna help you since I know everything you are going to do! Strange isnt it?!" Nice video as usual MSC!
Love the video. Pokemon VGC is another game which is a great example of mind games because the mind games in fighting games are sometimes masked by fancy tech or even just the overwhelming amount of options available.
Inconsistency is a pretty good mindgame. Sometimes players who make tiny mistakes that make them difficult to predict are tougher to deal with than people who've memorized every setup combo their character has. Having no idea what your opponent is thinking is much more terrifying than knowing the 2 or 3 optimal courses of action a pro WILL take in any given situation. I find upstarts with a great grasp on fundamentals and little else are harder to deal with than semi-pros with a lot of experience. I've lost more stocks to someone doing something absurd and unexpected than I have to making bad reads.
I learned about mind games the hard way. I always used to dash towards the opponent and he'd simply shield and grab and it took me years to figure out what I did wrong.
I've been waiting for a video like this for a while and hope that the players watching this will either implement this into gameplay or new players realize this area of fighting games is important to victory.
I learned all of my mind game skills by playing a ton of competitive pokemon. It's crazy how much a turn-based RPG can have in common with a platformer-fighter. It's too bad I sink into autopilot so easy.
Warning: CPUs don't give a f0ck about M.G.
Cchainsaw West cpu's already know your every move anyways
Terrence Dinnall that's the point bro.
Cchainsaw West ya I know. These cpu don't care lol
And that's why dodge roll-> up Smash is a true combo.
DJ Kent HARD READS!
YOUR UPLOADING SCHEDULE IS THE HARDEST MINDGAME OF THEM ALL FAM
Lmao
LOL
COMBO WOMBO That's his secret: he has no upload schedule.
COMBO WOMBO Talk about Camila Cuevas Glitchtale season 2 episode 4.
Hi 👋 Kirby person
Shield < Grab
Grab < attack
Attack < Shield
It's the Smash Bros weapon triangle!
what about counter tho, grab beats counter, waiting beats counter, atacking loses to counter and shielding does nothing.
TheMrDanieloco that another!
Shielding is basically waiting.
+controllerFreak Shieldbreaker beats shield, that's another one
And it all loses to Shine.
At 3:00, I actually experienced that state of mind once. I was playing at a local Smash tournament. Previously I had only played against casual friends and won without thinking beyond level 1. In this tournament I went up against a player who was *just* more skilled that I was challenged but I could win--I did manage to win one set. At a certain point in the match, time seemed to stop for me. Instantly Smash changed from a fighting game to chess--or to be more accurate Rock-Paper-Scissors. I carefully considered all of my approach options and all of his responses. I never experienced anything like that before, or since. I think that's the kind of state professional players experience all the time, and I can understand why they'd want to make a living using that state of mind.
Daniel Royer it's like what Mango said. smash is chess but in the fastest way possible. and there are no turns
You entered The Zone
You just summarized my paragraph into a single sentence lol
toki wo tamare
Daniel Royer It made you think of it as chess or rock paper scissors... mindgames are everywhere wow 😁
Picking Dedede is the biggest mind game of all.
Mr. Bo
That's a sad mind game against ZeRo.
This is called Yomi Levels
Level 0 is analogous to level 4 even though level 4 is obviously a more complex thought pattern. This is because The answer given by Yomi level 4 would be the same as the answer given by Yomi level 0. You can expect everyone of tournament professional quality to already be at Yomi level 4, so the contest then is to be able to cycle the default move (The answer given by Yomi level 0) through the Rock-Paper-Scissors game slightly faster than your opponent. Too slow and they can read you and punish, too fast and you over-predict and do the move their move is good against. If an opponent isn't at Yomi level 4 (0-3) yet then they are unable to cycle at all and winning against them is mostly trivial. Note that Yomi level 0 players can throw off an expert momentarily because their answers are the same as level 4, with the exception that they can't cycle so they are still easily beaten.
---
The Rock Paper Scissors Tournament Meta actually makes decisions in groups of threes. As in, you choose a set of three hands every three hands then do those three hands no matter what.
While this does mean you could lose three hands in a row off of a single decision, the benefit strongly outweighs the risk. Now you're making a much more nuanced size-27 decision which makes yourself much less vulnerable to being read since your behavioural tells don't as strongly correlate to a single one of 27 decisions as it does to one of three decisions.
Glad I'm not the only one who thought of Yomi during this video.
This is actually how I think the case is with certain (mosly offensive) top players such as Zack and Marss
I used to play a game which enforces a Rock-Paper-Scissors and Coin Side Game (ie: 3 choice with a "triangle" or "two choice game" where they have to pick what you picked) and used this type of thinking mixed with the conditioning clause. The game had earlier matches lose much less "currency" than later ones, and so I would normally choose say, Scissors or Tails my first try. If I win, I carry on with the switching so that I choose what beats what I picked, as they are more likely to switch off of a loss from the first try. If I lost, I then choose the same to read my opponents level of thinking. If they still pick the same, I know they are likely choosing off of conditioning and switch. If they switched, they expected me to switch off of a higher level of thinking. I then switch either way on the next but decide the one after based on this thinking. If it was conditioning, I choose the original. If by thought process, I stay on the new one (or in the case of RPS, I switch to what beats the new one.) I actually never thought of it as a theory, but it's great to finally know the name of it.
· 0xFFF1 I guess this is why I find it hard to get past 100000 Online
This whole thing can be demonstrated in one meme.
DID HE JUST WALK UP SLOWLY AND DOWN SMASH?
lol tru
The Waffle Guy dont you mean she?
Akeem Taylor no
@@akeemtaylor8375 no
This is also why fighting a CPU, even a high leveled one, isn't beneficial after a certian point. If you've ever went for an airdodge read against the computer you'd know it seldom work; as a level 9 will airdodge an attack if you do one and wont if you dont. As a result; players fighting a cpu will ignore these conditions and mindgames, and by the time they fight an actual player they will only have the skill of a level 10 CPU, with the repetetive actions and movements just like one.
This is the problem I face as a player that only had time to practice alone. I thought I was pretty good at Smash after watching pro games (I certainly didn't think I was anywhere as good as them, but at least I knew most of what I was doing) and beating level 10 CPUs - it does not translate in the real world.
My favourite notifications are the ones that start with
"My Smash Corner uploaded a video"
Same
Oof, guy hasn't posted in a year ;-;
This video series is nothing short of amazing content, I truly get hyped whenever I see these in my sub box. I know it takes you a long time to make these, so I appreciate the hard work you put into them; keep it up!
You forgot to talk about that taunting your Enemy can also be used to mindgame them to force a Aggressive option.
Defensive characters can abuse taunts so hard because of this reason.
Once, I was playing against a friend of mine. He chose Bowser and I chose Robin. I noticed that he always used his down special whenever he was in the air and I was below him, so I began to go beneath him in purpose so he uses the down special, dodge and use Arcfire on him before he could move, which gave me an opportunity to combo him. We were doing it over online, so he didn't realise that was what I was doing and continued doing it as a result. I won without losing any stocks.
I matched into someone online and they did the exact same thing your friend did
The only true mind game is missing a tech and not doing anything the whole time.
Jeckup or slowly walking up and down smash the opponent
Missing a tech and doing regular get up works a lot more than people think and can put you in less dangerous spots than rolling where the opponent can attempt to read and punish. Dem invincibility frames can also be used to avoid getting punished with a projectile with the right timing.
Who needs mind games when you have spin dash!
gotta go fast
Back Pack
Yo the Keef references
Back Pack
Well, competitive Sm4sh is mostly a game of matchup and character knowledge, rather than reads and mind games. There's a lot of truth to what you just said...
This is a really well detailed video about mind games, thank you for creating something like this!
I just want to clarify something though, you talked like the range and neutral mind game presented in the video is different from other fighting games, although the concept exists in all of them as well. Take any competitive match of Tekken to watch, and you will see that during most of it players are at a long range doing nothing but backdashes and forward dashes figuring out how to approach their opponent and how to get into their ideal range.
The same goes for a match of Street Fighter, when you are in a full range a fireball is not much of a threat to you, but if you are in mid range, then the mind games begins, where you have to guess if they are going to throw a fireball so then you can read it and jump, or if they are not going to throw a fireball and you have to play footsies because if you jump then, you are going to get hit by an anti air move like Shoryuken.
Speaking of conditioning, I was playing against a Mario as Luigi, and I conditioned him to air-dodge after I grabbed him multiple times. It got to a point where all I had to do was down-throw, wait for him to come back down after air-dodging, then up-b. He left the game soon after that. Needless to say, that was some of the funniest shit I've ever done in Smash.
If they're offstage just jump next to them, 90% will air dodge then just punish with a spike
*still wonders why he watches these videos despite not having the game*
To fill that empty void
glitch hunter i love you
glitch hunter I wonder why I watch this even though I can't perform a thing he says
Same I want it bad tho
*still wonders why he isn't just playing on Netplay.*
You're videos have gotten so good lately. Keep up the great work.
Am I the only one who's gonna say how the jack in the box animation was adorable?
I have an idea for a video, how about "What is Disrespect?"
It's a meme you dip! :P
Let me rephrase it, What is Disrespecful?
It's honestly pretty self explanatory...
The reason I said it was a meme (I wasn't just being ironic) is because nobody uses the term in a serious context. It doesn't actually mean anything because its not an important fighting game term...
Like okay...I got killed by Ganon's Side B off the stage...I just got *DISRESPECTED*
How is that different from dying in any other way? You see where I'm getting from this...
Though I would LOVE to see a video of that title made by a less serious smash tuber than this one, it would be funny to see what qualifies as "disrespect" and what doesn't lol!
+Daviator el Quesillo so would using a quick, but weak attack against a shield stunned opponent rather than winding up a more powerful attack be considered disrespect?
Killing your opponent AND yourself with a Falcon Dair I guess would also count...
Just a nitpick. Smash 4 actually has higher Shield Stun than Melee. However, dropping your shield in Smash 4 is much faster than in Melee and also aerials in Melee generally have lower landing lag due to L cancelling existing. In addition, the existence of buffering makes it very easy to always act on the first frame that shieldstun ends in Smash 4, whereas in Melee you generally always act a frame or two late. The result of these factors is that despite Smash 4 having higher shield stun, shielding is a much safer option than it is in Melee.
I'm only watching to stay ahead of my friends who I know watch this channel to improve, since they don't seem to study as it is, and as a result, this channel is their only intake of smash info. Thank you for providing me a way to essentially stomp out a friendship.
Mr.choke is the greatest mind game of all time, intentionally losing nationals so he can catch everyone by surprise when the next EVO rolls around. I got him all figured out.
I don't play smash much anymore, but this really helped me understand the whole "levels deep" thing more intuitively.
It's not just a matter of "is my opponent currently at level 2, 3, or 4?" guessing game stuff, instead it's based on real human tendencies, immediate wants, behavior patters, and etc, and it happens without even thinking about what level you're currently on.
My smash corner... the only channel that can make Rock Paper Scissors seem like a professional sport
It’s not a professional one tho.
Mind games in psychology is used to define three forms of competitive human behaviors:
a largely conscious struggle for psychological one-upmanship, often employing passive-aggressive behavior to specifically demoralize or dis-empower the thinking subject, making the aggressor look superior; also referred to as "power games".
the unconscious games played by people engaged in ulterior transactions of which they are not fully aware, and which transactional analysis considers to form a central element of social life all over the world.
mental exercises designed to improve the functioning of mind and/or personality; see also brain teasers or puzzles.
The term mind games was first used in 1968. Mind games in the sense of the struggle for prestige appear in everyday life in the fields of office politics, sport, and relationships. Played most intensely perhaps by Type A personalities, office mind games are often hard to identify clearly, as strong management blurs with over-direction, healthy rivalry with manipulative head-games and sabotage.The wary salesman will be consciously and unconsciously prepared to meet a variety of challenging mind games and put-downs in the course of their work.
The serious sportsman will also be prepared to meet a variety of gambits and head-games from their rivals, attempting meanwhile to tread the fine line between competitive psychology and paranoia.
1In intimate relationships, mind games can be used to undermine one partner's belief in the validity of their own perceptions. Personal experience may be denied and driven from memory; and such abusive mind games may extend to denial of the victim's reality, social undermining, and the trivializing of what is felt to be important. Both sexes have equal opportunities for such verbal coercion, which may be carried out unconsciously as a result of the need to maintain one's own self-deception.
Eric Berne described a psychological game as an organized series of ulterior transactions taking place on twin levels, social and psychological, and resulting in a dramatic outcome when the two levels finally came to coincide. He described the opening of a typical game like flirtation as follows: "Cowboy: 'Come and see the barn'. Visitor: 'I've loved barns ever since I was a little girl'". At the social level a conversation about barns, at the psychological level one about sex play, the outcome of the game - which may be comic or tragic, heavy or light - will become apparent when a switch takes place and the ulterior motives of each become clear.
Between thirty and forty such games (as well as variations of each) were described and tabulated in Berne's best seller on the subject. According to one transactional analyst, "Games are so predominant and deep-rooted in society that they tend to become institutionalized, that is, played according to rules that everybody knows about and more or less agrees to. The game of Alcoholic, a five-handed game, illustrates this...so popular that social institutions have developed to bring the various players together" such as Alcoholics Anonymous and Al-anon.
Psychological games vary widely in degrees of intensity, ranging from first-degree games - socially acceptable - to third-degree games that are played for keeps. Berne recognized however that "since by definition games are based on ulterior transactions, they must all have some element of exploitation",and the therapeutic ideal he offered was to stop playing games altogether.
mind if i use some of this info in a research paper?
So let me get this right,
Mind games are games you play in your mind so games play mind games that mind the mind games allowing games to play games in the mind games while actualy mind games mind a game with the mind games in a game. That means games play mind games in minds where games give mind games to the mind so games can be mind games in the mind from the game. Huh, I thought mind games where just games in the mind being mind games for the mind in the game.
Right?
Exactly
🤯
I think this post is a mind game in of itself.
What does my opponent think I think my opponent thinks I think my opponent thinks I think my opponent thinks I think my opponents thinks I'm going to do? (Level 9 CPU thinking)
But instantly lol
Ivan Flannigan with a frame perfect response every time haha
Chike Esedebe Ikr? I remember getting mad at people who said CPUs were nothing but a punching bag, but after playing with humans for a while, I now understand them lol. It's ridiculous how they can respond perfectly every time, and yet you don't improve since M.G. don't work or they fall into the same many times.
Dude amazing video. You made something that's the definition of confusing into an understandable topic. I knew that they were options based on past experiences, but the examples you threw out there were great! It's awesome to see you include every smash game as well. Great work as always
Funny thing is to me all this was super basic info that I already knew lol :P
One of my favorite mindgames is to randomly throw out strong moves, and follow up with a quick attack. For example, as Dedede, I throw out an F-smash, and then immediately follow win a down tilt. People always run in for a punish, not expecting such a quick move to come out.
5:41 Shield stun is actually higher in Smash 4 than melee (according to formulas on Smash Wiki)
What makes shield pressure so much safer in Melee and 64 are the options used for shield pressure have far earlier FAFs than that of 4, allowing some moves to be more frame positive or neutral. Largely due to L cancelling and Z cancelling respectively.
edit: Shield stun in 64 is ridiculous though.
After watching the video, I can conclude that I'm below level 0.
SomeWildGaming Same lol
"There is now a level zero."
-Shifu
autopiloting
SomeWildGaming I think it works in a parabola, meaning -3 is the same as 3. -3 is what does my opponent not think I won’t think they won’t do, meaning “what does my opponent think are the options I won’t use”, basically.
For anybody that thinks that smash is all RPS, know that the better players get better not only by figuring out the pattern and picking good options, but more importantly by risk reward. You want to set yourself up in RPS positions that favor you, and the risk reward should skew what you pick. Take the shield/grab/attack. If you are fighting an opponent with a kill combo off a grab, such as the cargo kill with DK, you want to generally play around that strongest option more. But at the same time your fear of that option and want to avoid it makes you more predictable, but that isn't always a bad thing. As the DK you want to go for the grab more often than not, whether or not it's predictable, because you want the opponent to respect your good options. Be willing to show that you will spam it if you need to, and when they are convinced you want the grab and you are in a position to gain a lot off reading said avoidance of your grab, then you make your move and do something like a short hop dair to cover their grab on your shield. Being better means being willing to understand not only how much risk reward affects the gameplay, but also being really good at putting yourself in those strong positions. This is how PPMD is so good at neutral despite playing almost entirely around fast hitboxes and movement, the advantages he gets in neutral are a bunch of little strengths like taking space that rarely risk him getting hurt but always giving him more and more advantageous positions.
Also the movement options in melee are the reason people in the community call it deeper or harder, it's not that it's faster it's that there are more things available to you at all times making the average neutral game mix up much more complex. You can essentially use your whole tool kit almost anywhere and control what space you play at on a whim if you master it, moving in and out of places where you threaten an unreactable move or decide to just back up instead and Jebait the fuck out of them. No ish to smash 4, it's amazing, but I just wish stuff like not being able to immediately shield out of run didn't exist. It alone limits way too many characters.
The best mind game is a taunting Greninja preforming a Shadow Sneak.
I'm bad at Mind Games
Fucking liar
Erebus Why ;_;
Nice edit!
TheOneWhoPlays clever
My Mind Games are crisp
This is actually a fantastic tutorial! I find myself watching CZcams tutorials and occasionally losing track because I don't understand, or I sort of zone out for a bit or get distracted, but this tutorial had a decent amount of engagement and perfect information flow, making for a video I understood perfectly, and I can apply this knowledge very easily!
Also, Feesh's art is indeed very good. 9/10 cookies.
low-key super glad you have a shout-out to the artist. my first thought seeing it was, "oh who did he take this uncredited work from"
but then you came out in the end. good man. rare stuff to see online.
Love me some mind games, nothing is more satisfying than having a fire fight or dodging snipers in tf2, then suddenly stopping dead still and staring whoever you're fighting down until they try something. Really throws them off and hasn't failed me yet!
Something interesting i thought you guys should know is that fear makes people take less risks and anger makes people take more risks. Zoners should capitalize on making the opponent angry and exploiting their opponent angry and punishing unsafe approaches and grapplers and heavy hityers can focus on countering options that make players feel safer like rolling, shielding, and dodging by using patience and mindgames like tomahawks
The quality of your videos is impeccable as always. Thank you for working so hard for the entire Smash community.
Fun fact: Reading the mind of the opponent is used for the Japanese word Yomi. People used to describe things in Yomi layers like Yomi layer 1 is “I’m gonna throw you and your gonna block.” Layer 2 is “You know that I’m gonna throw you so your more likely to jump.” Layer 3 is “I know that you know that I’m gonna throw you so instead I’m just gonna do a normal.” It keeps going up like that.
You should check out B.F. Skinner's work on Operant Conditioning if you haven't already. Lots of professional studies on stuff you touched on here.
I will, thanks for sharing.
I just want to say thank you so much MSC for keeping up this content. I find it incredibly valuable.
Definitely one of my favorite videos by you. A lot of my friend say "why do you play smash or any video game? It seems pretty easy, all you have your do is press the good buttons." I feel this video can show people why I (and others) love smash as a game, and why the complexity of these things are much more than performing the right series of inputs (oh wait... Bayoneta mains...) jk, bao is bae.
While I've always been familiar with the concept of mind games, this video gives the depths of it that's much needed. Thanks for this.
Appreciate the videos. Even if I have some idea as to what something you cover is, you manage to go so indepth that I always learn something new.
I managed to scare a Cap Falcon enough with the possibility that I counter him that we ended up standing still for a solid 30 seconds
MCS: Attack beats grab
Me: But I just tried to DORIYAH someone and got grabbed. :(
i want to thank you smash corner, ive been playing smash since 64 but never bothered tryin to go pro or learn any advanced techniques and thanks to you my knowledge on not just smash but other fighting games has increased significantly.
1:25 But then you have to think "Does my opponent think I'm overthinking it?", and then "Does my opponent think I think he thinks I'm overthinking it?", and then you have to think "Does my opponent think I think he thinks I think he thinks I'm overthinking it?"
I love your voice, it's so calm and collected, but you also get your point across without boring me and you're able to teach us a lot of good stuff.
i read this video was coming out today, was that a mind game?
Nah that was a sick read bro
thx mate
That reminds me of a story back from the Smash for Wii U days, I was on For Glory and facing against a Link. I was Falco. The match was really heated and eventually lead to Sudden Death. The Link kept his arrow on max and I was really close, one wrong move and I'm dead. I dash dance for a split second, fast fall and use down-b, pulling out my reflector, the Link thought I wouldn't react quick enough and shoots, which ends the battle with a reflected arrow, killing the Link.
The mind games were REAL
My personal hints on mindgames:
- if it's getting too complex, do something simple
- save your reads until you can take the stock
- it is likely, that a player under pressure will chose the opposite of what he/she normally does
I'm trying to get into competitive smash and your msc special series is really helpful I've been playing for glory for about a year now but when I got into it I didn't realize how complex the competitive scene was this series really is great by starting with a simplified version and slowly getting deeper keep up the good work
Conditioning isn't a necessary part of resets (though it helps). Resets are done because they allow someone to drop their damage and use the positional advantage to put their opponent in a mixup for more potential damage. Even if your opponent knows where your reset is, they still have to eat that mixup (not counting reversal options out of it, which can usually be baited).
neat
damn look at those mind games
You know what you need? More mind games
*More* mind games?! There're millions mind games all around us!
wow. you made this so painstakingly clear. this is so well-edited, and it's clear you put a lot of research into this. lots of respect towards to the makers of this video.
Dude these aesthetics, illustrations, and visuals are amazing!
I've never seen an explanation on mindgames as comprehensive as this. Great work once again, MSC.
That was a great video! I remember getting pissed at people making once-successful tactics into always-failures. The video helped me understand more behind the scenes of the actual movements on the screen and how most of them have a reason. Oh, and that Critical Distance concept really helped me improve my M.G. Love your work. Keep it up!
I think normally rolling is the best option if someone is advancing to me because no matter if it is an aerial, grab or shield. You get the choice to counter attack or move back. Might just be my play style.
4:16 “-It’s impossible to react”
Me: *watches the startup of charge shot*
Me: are you absolutely sure?
i think shulk's monado arts keep the opponent on there toes , they don't know what your going to pick so they have to : 1: just deal with it or 2 : go in and attack you which can be easly punished by a vision
Sophia's art and your editing is amazing!
This video...
It's an actual demonstration of how much I think about the current match I'm in. Whether it's smash or any other competitive game. Believe or not, I never knew that the level of mind games transcend this deep. And that's what makes it all better too.
You can definitely tell why this has taken a while, you clearly put a lot of work into getting this to work, and you did a fantastic job!
Your explanation of the levels reminded me of an episode of samurai jack where jack and aku keep trying to justify their thinking by going like "I knew that you knew that i knew that you knew that i knew that..."
Smash 4 actually has more shield stun than Melee does. Pressuring shields in melee is just easier because there's no buffering and shines and l-cancelling allow for quick successive attacks.
On the topic of soft and hard reads, I've always defined a hard read as heavily committing to punish certain options, not necessarily a single option, but its involves using a move that will put the player in a bad position if it doesn't work. A soft read would be covering an option in a way that is non-committal, or just safe to use even if it doesn't land. Nice video regardless.
a good mind game is short hopping, then doinga counter, as my local tournament had loads of bayos and shieks up smashing when they thought I was going for a fast fall neutral air
Great video! In retrospect, I've done these things without necessarily realizing what terms they fell into. Great job! I'll definitely do my best to keep this in mind the next time I'm Smashing.
the only mindgame I am good at is deep into a match I suddenly use an otherwise bad (but not slow) move to catch them off guard. Examples of this are Dedede's inhale, links grounded up B, etc.
this has been one of the best lessons i have ever listend to, including school. fantastic job
the only thing I am thinking off by mindgames is Sonic fighting Metal Sonic:
"you might know everything I am gonna do, but thats not gonna help you since I know everything you are going to do!
Strange isnt it?!"
Nice video as usual MSC!
This was extremely interesting and helpful, you hit the spot between simple and complicated. Thank you
Love the video. Pokemon VGC is another game which is a great example of mind games because the mind games in fighting games are sometimes masked by fancy tech or even just the overwhelming amount of options available.
4:04 Considering how small that shield was, you can still get shield broken.
I like how his idea of the rock paper siccors was utilized in Smash Ultimate
The MSC specials are so amazing
THIS EXPLAINS MIND GAMES LITERALLY PERFECTLY
This is why My Smash Corner will always be my favorite smash channel. Such quality content keep up the good work!
These are at such a nice level of quality, keep it up!
All of your videos are so interesting and informative. It puts such a good spin on smash and makes me love this game more than I already do.
This channel is my sole reason for playing smash bros at all competitively, thank you for all the help MSC!!
Inconsistency is a pretty good mindgame. Sometimes players who make tiny mistakes that make them difficult to predict are tougher to deal with than people who've memorized every setup combo their character has. Having no idea what your opponent is thinking is much more terrifying than knowing the 2 or 3 optimal courses of action a pro WILL take in any given situation. I find upstarts with a great grasp on fundamentals and little else are harder to deal with than semi-pros with a lot of experience. I've lost more stocks to someone doing something absurd and unexpected than I have to making bad reads.
I learned about mind games the hard way. I always used to dash towards the opponent and he'd simply shield and grab and it took me years to figure out what I did wrong.
level 1 - aerial attack
level 2 - tomahawk grab
level 3 - tomahawk uptilt
There's also shield breaking moves.
I've been waiting for a video like this for a while and hope that the players watching this will either implement this into gameplay or new players realize this area of fighting games is important to victory.
I usually do level 2 or 4 in the mind game thing. It depends on how smart they are.
FINALLY, someone who realizes how intense Rock-Paper-Scissors is!
i know how to counter something, if mario jumps after rob used his down smash, rob needs to wait for mario to get down closer then do his up smash
I think very few of us can describe mind games, but this man did it
I learned all of my mind game skills by playing a ton of competitive pokemon. It's crazy how much a turn-based RPG can have in common with a platformer-fighter. It's too bad I sink into autopilot so easy.
This happens extremely unconsciously for me and has been for every game I've ever played
2:01 "My opponent thinks that I think that my opponent thinks I'm gonna attack, so I'm gonna attack"
I play Robin quite a lot, and I find that people have a hard time predicting when I do Thoron, even though I'm out of the, "Critical Range"
4:09 -Rob's "critical range and pressure game"-
I love these specials so much.