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The Downfall of Cloverfield & Abrams' "Mystery Box"
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- čas přidán 4. 09. 2024
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I dont like the way you say "Aliens" its rather annoying, you're lazy on the "A" part, could you plz stop it thanks.
+Logan Gunnoe I agree, he did M.I:3 like a stretched out episode of his Alias series. Super 8 was basically a greatest hits of all of Speilberg's sci fi classics of the 70s and 80s, and Star Trek Into Darkness was a rip off of Wrath and TOS space Seed episode mixed together. Abrams is a imitator and copy-cat director.
+Logan Gunnoe I guess you could say they are and the first Cloverfield movie is basically a rip-off of Godzilla and the Kaiju movies, but i do like Cloverfield and JJ never directed that movie.
Ryan Hollinger Fuck you!
There's a difference between withholding actual information and pretending to have information. The Mystery Box doesn't work if you have absolutely no idea what's in it, or if it really is completely hollow.
that's a really good point. thanks for pointing this out
Or you could even say that the mystery box doesn't work if there is nothing inside
Imma save this for later, thanks
fuck loot crates
*coff coff* Force Awakens *coff coff*
I really hated in The Rise of Skywalker when Finn said he had something to tell Rey but then he never says what it is. Then JJ goes on Twitter and says he was gonna tell Rey he is force sensitive. Like WTF, why wouldn't you put that in the movie if you are just gonna say it on social media. Pointless "mystery".
That case is different. Its not mystery. It got cut due to studio meddling. TLJ is bascially just a frankenstein's monster of 7 different films butchered together due to the fights between Abrams, Kennedy and Iger. And if the Bad Robot leaks are true it was specifically Kennedy that threw a massive shitfest and erased Flyn's plotline because, well, "the force is female", and he isn't. No I'm not kidding the leaks claim she literally wanted to kill or erase all male non-dark-side force users by the end of TLJ as part of her feminist message. So it's not Abrams fault he had to explain it on twitter when his higherups just straight up censored it from the film for petty political reasons. (And for the record I am a second waver/Egalitarian, but even if I was a hardcore third waver. Kennedy is fucking deranged.)
The Spanish Inquisition what? That is such a bad an lazy feminist message. And it’s not like anyone was gonna count the genders of the left Jedi.
Also it sends the message that all men should die for a female to stand out, and that’s pretty not feminist. I’m trying to wrap my head around why anyone thought that was a good idea.
This is why people shouldn’t follow ideologies blindly without understanding them.
@@thespanishinquisition4078 Crazy if true but, honestly, it sounds... extremely fake
I've always said this. Anything that has to be explained after the fact doesn't work. Audiences didn't love Citizen Kane because Orson Welles wrote an opinion piece about the ending. It either works in context or it doesn't.
Rise of Skywalker was a shitshow as is. They tried to fit too much in and it just felt like a repeated slap in the face. I legit couldn’t keep up with new things (that fucking dagger was driving me mad) being added to the plot.
Like, I have my criticisms for The Force Awakens and the Last Jedi, but while I was in the cinema for both I could just switch off and enjoy it. I could find my problems with it later, TLJ in particular (I don’t have a hate boner for Rian Johnson as much as others, I appreciate what he was trying to do but it was not executed well). With Rise of Skywalker I was scratching my head all the way through.
There were good scenes and some good ideas, but you had to wade through the swamp to get to them.
The mystery box may have infinite possibilities, but at the end of the day, whether you open it or not, it's still just filled with a couple dollars worth of cheap crap.
Yeah, I mean there's a lot you can do with the AUDIENCE knowing something that the characters do not - like what Hitchcock said about the bomb under the table. We know it's there, but the characters around the table do not. You can build all kinds of tension and suspense with actually giving knowledge as opposed to withholding it.
The 2 "sequels" are too clean. The best moment in the first movie was, when they see the monster a few blocks in the distance and suddenly 50 soldiers, 2 tanks and a fucking mobile missile launcher rock up and start firing at it. The scene looks so spectacular because smoke from the gunfire, screams from the protagonists and rubble from the monster just create this horrifying environment. It felt so much more real, even though there was a skyscraper sized octopus lizard in it
rob the moment you over analyze a movie scene, is the moment you take the wonder out of it. And If you always think like that, all movies are shit... don’t take yourself too seriously when you’re watching a Hollywood blockbuster. I learned that watching Batman lol
@rob of course they're out of formation there's a giant fucking monster
Honestly, they should have just slapped "cloverfied" on top of that Skyline movie. Honestly, it might have worked better connected to Cloverfield.
@@dbirch8160 that is some reductive advice right there, don't think just consume, okay buddy....
@@snatchadams69 Think about the stuff that matters, not why a soldier is holding a gun besides a standard military issue weapon.
A mystery should still have an interior solution. When a writer says "it's a mystery, not even *I* know the answer!" that's them giving up because script editing is too hard. No, even if the audience doesn't know everything, the story should be solid enough so that if the audience *did* know everything (say, in the sequels) it wouldn't break the story.
So basically have a possible answer WITHOUT answering it?
Pepper Millers Better to have a hidden plot than to have hidden plot holes.
Yes, but what about Who Killed Captain Alex? Not even the director himself knows who did it!
@@thatlonelygiraffeinc.6989 Not everyone can match the genius of Wakaliwood.
The audience had guessed the ending of Lost after the first episode!!! J J's a HACK!!! Lost Season one was phenomenal TV but the moment he had to extend the mystery he went off the rails {Season 2} then even further off {Season 3} then finally gave up and gave us the AWFUL ending so many had guessed at right from the start!!!
Abrams strikes me as the type of guy who would cheat off someone's paper in school, but purposely make a couple answers wrong so it didn't look like he cheated.
I like it when I couragely save people. I would never cheatly plagiarise somebody’s story. I surely don’t want to neglectly leave the stove on. I love skilly performing a difficult skating trick too. I love when I wordly state something in a correct manner. Luckly, I don’t have to worry about that anymore.
You can only directly anex ly into a word that is an adjective. Purpose is not an adjective, so you need something to bridge the concept of purpose and ly, and people commonly choose full to do that, so the word becomes purposefully. I implore you to stop using the thing that doesn’t exist that is “purposely” as a word. It doesn’t productively transform the language.
Now I feel a sudden urge to connect Pulp Fiction, Panic Room and Ace Ventura.
TheHitherto id watch it lol
If anything movie-wise should be connected, its Pulp Fiction and Reservoir Dogs.
That shouldn't be too hard. I always assumed Tarantino's movies played out in the same universe.
It's easy, dude. Just make a 4th movie where you claim that all 3 of those movies are connected via a paradox.
Raiken Xion no shit
He's a really bad writer but a good director. He'll make a movie look top notch, captivating, and beautiful. His writing will make you frustrated, annoyed, and unsatisfied.
Same with Shyamalan. I really love the look and feel to his movies, but there's always something dumb in the plot that makes it flawed.
Producer, not director. Abrams is a good producer.
@@CinnamonGrrlErin1 The greatness of Shyamalan's films seems to be inversely proportional to that film's budget.
@@razorednight thanks for the correction. I was basically just getting at him being better off steering clear of the plot/storyboard.
@@trequor 😭😭💀💀💀
Okay, but 10 Cloverfield Lane is amazing as a film on its own
Really great movie, but a terrible Cloverfield movie. It would've been even better if they scrapped that ending and hadn't tried to integrate it into some "Cloverfield Cinematic Universe". Also, sorry for reviving this old discussion. Just saw this video now.
But the entire story is a rip-off of a Metal Hurlant story/short film!
It was really, really good as a PSYCHOLOGICAL horror, and then it was completely ruined at the end
Brady Ward meh. To m and I’m not sure why I was wondering why I didn’t really enjoy it
Jason Mick ohh yeah maybe it was just the shitty ending 😂
When I first saw 10 Cloverfield Lane and heard that it was actually "connected" to Cloverfield, I figured that the Cloverfield movies were gonna be like an anthology series (like what John Carpenter wanted to do with Halloween which is why Halloween 3 happened) and would just have different stories for each film that somewhat relate to each other through those little easter eggs and through similar science fiction type scenarios (the giant monster in the first and the aliens at the end of the second). But *DAMN* they really botched the shit out of this "franchise". Like, seriously, all three of them probably should have been their own movies.
"I won't say JJ Abrams is a bad writer..."
I will... or rather, he's a very middling storyteller, at best, hiding behind gimmicks.
JJ Abrams hasn't had an original idea in his entire life.
Gimmicks can be interesting and exist for a reason. JJ Abrams is not that reason.
@@dorianl7294 uh... Lost?
@@dorianl7294 alias was amazing though. Maybe not original but i loved his take on spy-fi.... thought it was unique if a bit convoluted. Im generally not a fan of spy stuff except alias so maybe im wrong. But alias was gold until ABC started meddling with it in season 4.
JJ always has been and always will be a hack. There I said it.
If you never reveal what's inside the mystery box, then it's empty. And at that point it's no longer a box. It's a hook.
JJ is the cheap birthday party "magician" who thinks himself on the same level of expertise as Houdini.
JJ: Pulls a quarter out from behind your ear. "A good magician never reveals his secrets!"
I wish there was a direct sequel where it shows the different perspective of someone during Cloverfield. Like there was obviously dozens of people filming during the disaster, so seeing a different view would be awesome
there was all this online tie in stuff that went nowhere li think jj abrams knows how to sart something but doesnt know how to continue or end it.
There is actually a direct sequel currently in development
@@philhartman1948 I've heard it won't be found footage, but as long as it's about a giant monster and maybe following up some of the mystery aspects from the marketing campaign I'll for sure enjoy it
Wish we could've just gotten a giant monster franchise.
The MonsterVerse and Pacific Rim exists.
DarkEmpire626
Yeah me too.
They could have done it before Pacific Rim, but they definitely missed that boat now.
It just seems they are trying to over complicate a simple premise.
Sadly, the Pacific Rim sequel looks like another cash grab without any passion behind it like the original.
Just another random person on the internet, except Guillermo Del Toro fought like hell for a sequel to be made. So, it can't possibly be simply a cash grab.
George Daugherty Yeah but from the trailers it looks nowhere near as exciting as the original was. I hope I'm wrong though.
JJ Abrams must be hard of hearing. You're supposed to "show not tell" not "pretend you've got something cool to show and then disappoint everybody"
The golden box in Pulp Fiction was just a cheap gag Quinton threw in to play madlibs with the audience; it doesn't actually matter what's in there, and it's definitely not worth making a discombobulated franchise over it.
The briefcase is my favorite mcguffin in cinema. It's literally as empty of a plot device as you could possibly have, but that's the point.
@@maxhydekyle2425maybe thats the point? These characters fight and die for something that probably does not matter.
Jose Sosa for all we know it could've been an egg mcmuffin.
@@josesosa3337 I feel like that would be a very Tarantino move honestly.
I think the difference between the box in pulp fiction and, say, the mystery in lost is that while we don’t technically know what’s in the box, we know everything important about it. It’s an important thing that people want. The solution to lost on the other hand, we know nothing about because it’s the central focus of the show.
He uses mystery as a gimmick to the point it becomes empty and meaningless as we all now know that any mystery he sets up is nothing more. There is nothing to discover, no answers to earn by paying attention and taking in all the details.
I don't think he uses it as a gimmick, though. Watch that TED talk he gave. He genuinely believes every goddamn word he says. He's not some money shark that makes cash grabs and uses it as a gimmick in that sense. He uses it because he legitimately thinks it's a good plot device and makes for a better story.
George Daugherty He may be both.
He may not think he's using it as a gimmick but that's what it's become now because he uses it so much with no substance. When ever he isn't using mystery as a gimmick he just copies what's come before (Star Wars)
What in LOST didn't make sense? I've watched that series twice and about 95% of questions are answered. They should've kept the whispers as a mystery in that show tbh.
Lost made sense in terms of yes, they explained everything (which they made up as they went along) however it didn't make 'sense' as in the explainations all seemed like BS and were either underwhelming, contrived or down right dumb.
In short: Once you realize that JJ's mystery boxes are empty, they stop to be intriguing. Since Lost I thought of him as a snake oil merchant who tries to pull the same trick every time, but providing empty spectacle and just likes to have mystery for the sake of it. That is why I was not too interested in the "mysteries" of Force Awakens, because I knew there were no answers defined, so searching for clues makes no sense...
1. Monsters
2. Energy crisis
3. Paradox
4. ??????
5. Profit
Don't forget stealing people's underwear. (This is a South Park reference in case you were unaware)
“I wouldn’t say JJ Abrams Is a bad writer by any mean-“
Well I would.
I'll scream it proudly from the rooftops.
The thing with the "mysteries" is that I WANT there to be answers, with the director at least. I want them to have an idea and rules in their mind because it gives purpose to the story. I don't want things to just be happening for the sake of it.
Sarah Poynter yeah like how did Maz get Luke's lightsaber?
You talk about two completely different things here as if they're the same, but they're not. The WRITERS having an idea of what's going on is important. The VIEWER having all the answers is not, and is often detrimental to the story. Good writers never reveal ALL the information to the audience; trust me. You don't want that. It's a whole lot of worldbuilding and character sheets. We know what our protagonist's favourite colour is; doesn't mean it's relevant to the story.
JJ is not a magician, he is the guy standing outside the tend, yelling at everybody trying to get people inside to see the magician... Once people walk inside, they realize there is not magician...
He's like the man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz. He gives this illusion he's something great, but pull away the curtains and you realize it is all an act.
After finding out that 10 Cloverfield Lane was actually a standalone film in the beginning, I got a little pissed. The last 10 minutes, although not awful, destroyed a bit of the movie's complexity and mystery at the end.
Korbin Jones agreed
Was a good movie, but I suppose it's little to no promotion was why they slapped the cloverfield name on it so confirming people would go see it.
I actually think that the last 10 minutes suck not because it involves aliens, but because of the goofy fight scene. The fact that there really was an apocalypse, and that John Goodman wasn't completely lying, actually adds to the movie IMO - and if in the last scene she simply saw the alien ship coming, jumped in a car and drove away, that would have worked great.
Instead we got a ridiculous hollywood fight sequence that grates against the realistic tone of the rest of the movie (which was actually already damaged by the acid sequence, in my opinion).
This is why it's such a shame that, as Ryan points out, without the Cloverfield name attached, the film would have struggled financially. Ryan breezes right past that, but it's the entire issue in a nutshell: we can argue the various artistic merits of what we got, but the film wouldn't exist at all, and most of you would not have seen it, if it didn't have a "brand" attached to it. If you want films like that but better, you have to actually take risks on indie films that are entirely new to you. And most people just don't do that. You can't separate art from money in the film world, and 10 Cloverfield Lane is a perfect illustration of why.
Would have been better without that ten minutes of CGI grossness at the end, ruined the film.
After seeing 10 Cloverfield Lane, I was incredibly excited about the idea of Cloverfield becoming a low-budget horror anthology series...
Then Paradox came out and my hopes were crushed.
I dont get how the first Cloverfield is related or vice versa to C Lane...
@@n.b.l.5709from what little information I can comprehend, it’s multiverse theory
Ironically, trying to explain the mystery in Paradox was the worst thing he could have done. Just keep releasing a bunch of movies called Cloverfield and see how crazy the theories will get.
Man, that would have been awesome
Nah if he's gonna keep baiting me with true sequels with true explanations to the questions I was left with after the first just to give me another almost completely detached mystery riding on the name to catch attention he can go fuck himself
Ricky Nelson exactly. Answering a fictional mystery is not gonna be satisfying if it feels like something the audience could come up with. Reveals are satisfying when they’re planned or inspired. JJ was giving answers because he felt he had to not because he had thought if a satisfying or poignant answer
I hate what they did, I just wanted a sequel of a monster movie full of mysteries and what we got is two totally random movies that have nothing to do but they have the same name for some fucking reason.I didn't wanted a cloververse, I wanted just a sequel of a monster movie!
I felt the same way. Like idk how Hollywood fucked that up.
I feel that as we see more of abahms work the more apparent it becomes that this mystery box formula isnt working. And it hits most with the star wars, im a big theorizer, but knowing that the bread crumbs lead to nowhere is both insulting and as you said ryan, makes the movie as a whole feel disingenuous, give me mystery, give me intrigue, but also... Make sure that this mystery has an answer, it doesnt need to be handed to us, but it needs to be there, and it shouldnt just a plot convince to be thrown about, it should be important to your expression, otherwise it is just a pointless void tossed in to be filled as you wish.
Really, Abrams can't plan for shit. I would guess he's one of those people you hold up as the lesson to the often excepted, "Write what you know" and "Get some freaking real world experience."
You want to see how handles a setting, look at the overarching setup he put into the Star Wars Universe to justify the state of the setting for The Force Awakens. The Galactic Disarmament and The Battle of Jakku. Because the New Republic can rule a nearly galaxy wide Empire with only 10% of the forces the Empire had to control it, which included 25,000 Imp and Imp-II Star Destroyers,. That's purely Abrams.
Johnson is just as bad and worse. He's a postmodern deconstructionist. Someone who wants to rob the value and worth out of anything that he doesn't view as in line with "postmodern" values.
If the author doesn't know what's in the mystery box, then it ceases to be a mystery box and just becomes an empty ass box.
Small nitpick (as a massive fan of Lost), but JJ had nothing to do with Lost after about halfway through season 1. He developed the Pilot with Damon Lindelof, and then he helped set up the first few episodes, but then he left to go work on Alias. The rest of the show (S2-6) was all Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse. So he didn't really have any input on any of the resolutions despite people always attaching his name to the show.
Yup, JJ helped create the shows setting and mysteries but almost immediately Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindlof took over to create answers. They should get most of the credit I think because they did a good job at keeping the show intriguing enough to watch it to the end.
Also, it gives you so many answers.
You are absolutely right Jorgino. He actually has admitted it to a certain extent during interviews while at the same time doing press for Lost. It's the same with Westworld. Creatively he pretty much has nothing to do with that show. Not to take away from his talent but JJ is also very much a Brand. So u could say he's justified in taking the credit because it's his production company and fans now know him and want to see him on this or that talk show. His wife is a master at PR and is in charge of all of his promotions. And his career would not have taken off with out the good press. Pure branding. That's the way of the world these days.
Leilani Lee It's not really the same. In Westworld he is just the Executive Producer. Everyone can see that in the credits. Also, he never went on a solo press run about it. While in Lost he was the creator and face of the show.
MFJon777 Not sure what your point is? Mine is that JJ does jump in when a show under his production company banner is in trouble but otherwise pretty much stays out of it except when press and awards time come. He doesn't have much to do with the story lines or anything else going on with day to day production of Westworld. He gets production updates and sees the episodes when they are pretty much finished. (He's too busy working on a movie which he is completely involved in.) And that was the same on Lost with the exception of the pilot he co-wrote/directed and one other episode that he wrote for fun. After they finished the pilot he famously joked to the writers "you guys should put a hatch on the island" and they did. He wasn't being serious but they ran with it. Not to take anything away from him but Creator simply means coming up with the initial idea, not necessarily the ongoing fleshed out ideas. But to the public he seemed much more involved, thanks to the press & the nature of branding, when that is simply not the case. Also fun fact he & Damon were hired to rewrite the original pilot. So to some small degree technically the core idea around the island wasn't his either. Despite many flaws it's still one of my favorite shows.
i think everyone wanted the slusho drilling and waking up the monster theory to be the case. not this stupid shit parallel universe teleporting monsters through all points in time. it's stupid and a massive cop out
I know this comment is 2 years old, so ignore me, but it also isn't even an original idea. Stephen King's "The Mist" was all about portal monsters and parallel universes spilling into each other. I 100% agree it's a cop-out.
Agreed. They spent so much time and money on the Tagurato stuff, why not use it in the films?
I am now actively avoiding any story that builds itself around the "mystery box" structure. It is fun to try and gusse where a story is going but only if you know the author of the story knows. Most of the time these days writers do not have an idea what the broader structure of thier episodic story is. In the old days of single episode stories, writers were tasked with writing a complete story every episode for a show like Star Trek for example it must have been very challenging. Now writers do not commit to defined story elements, choosing to remain vague about the details while focusing on character drama. The vagueness of story details cause the viewers to get the false impression that they are watching a story that is so large in scope that the details of the story will be slow to reveal, this is all an illusion and a cheap way to not actually have to commit to the hard work of having authorial mastery of your story. J.J. started lost but had no ending in mind or even purpose to the mysteries he put on screen. It is a betrayal of your audience to offer up visual and narrative gibberish and then lie about there being deeper meaning. All J.J. ever does is make the box, he never puts anything in the box, he just makes the box and makes it look cool.
That's unfortunate. You'll be missing many great films.
I started avoiding this stuff after getting badly burned as a viewer by Battlestar Galactica (the remake). I spent a lot of time debating it with other fans in a Usenet group but as the last season progressed it became apparent that we'd wasted our time. The "mysteries" we were puzzling over had no answers in the writers' minds; the cobbled a few together for the finale and just let some go because they were unanswerable.
That was before the "mystery box" thing from Abrams but it was, indeed, a mystery box with nothing inside.
I'm actually thankful that A Quiet Place is NOT part of this universe. That movie is so well made.
I hate the mystery box. I WANT to know things. If the answers are lackluster, that's the fault of the people behind it for not having any ideas beyond making a mystery.
To me it depends how its done, making a mistery can be done right and so it can be a story that gives all the answers, its all about the execution.
depends. in some cases the mystery makes the story better, just check out junji ito's work. you get to know just as much as the characters do in his work.
but you never get to know how things actually work. wich is for the better. as if you knew how it all worked it would take away from the horror in his works.
theres this short story he made called "the long dream" wich is my favourite short story ever.
its simply about a guy who has dreams that progressively become longer. starting by a few hours and ending in dreams that feel like 100 years went by.
in his works it would actually ruin the whole story if he lingered on the idea of how everything works.
I wish that I never had answers for the alien and the Space Jockey in Alien
The question that needs to be asked with every mystery is: How would revealing the answer benefit the story, or how would withholding information benefit the story?
Depending on the story, either would work better.
The Mystery Box is actually scary simple. It's always a gun. What is the mystery box in Star Trek: Into Darkness? A dreadnought that Khan helped design. A weapom against the Klingons. A gun.
What's in the Mystery Box of The Force Awakens? Rey's parents. Rian Johnson says they are nobodies, used against Rey. A weapon against the main character. A gun. Star Trek Beyond? Main villain's identity. Used to combat the main villain, a gun for Captain Kirk this time. Gun. What is the mystery? Gun.
Aw man... I want the original Cloverfield 2 idea to happen, I love the idea of seeing the point of view of multiple people around the monster and slowly explaining the monster with each point of view story!!!
But LANE is still a better movie than the original because it has interesting and compelling characters AND it can be enjoyed outside of the original.
I wouldnt say its a better movie, but i would say its very good.
Interesting is such a boring word.
Michael Rodda personally I never see lane as a connected movie, I ignore the fact that clover field in the title (like the writer of the film does). I love the movie, solely judging it on its own and would rate it above the original
Michael Rodda if you stop watching the moment she SPOILERS gets out it improves tenfold
You know, the ending of lane would've been better if they end it with her escaping and spotting the UFO and then boom ended...
I think the idea of making multiple stories of the same event from different point of view with small intersecting points could be an amazing series.
JJ looked rather buff in that Ted Talk
His peak
Lol I thought the same thing
No?
He literally looks like George Constanta lol
Possibility is infinite, but it has to be used. Far too often, the mystery box is empty, at least until they are forced to open it(ex: rey's parents), and that potential is wasted.
I'm still mad about that stupid mystery box which IMO doomed that train wreck of a trilogy and whatever Rey's arc was supposed to be right from the beginning.
I really hated Cloverfield Paradox.
Like you, I enjoyed watching Cloverfield. It’s no masterpiece but for what it was, I enjoyed it. It was a thrilling found footage monster flick.
It did leave me with a few unanswered questions like “What is that monster?”
“Where did it come from?”
“What is it’s purpose?”
“How did it get here?”
“Are the couple still alive?”
“What was the world like after this attack?”
“Will more monsters show up? If so, are they different or similar?”
Precisely none of these questions will be answered because Paradox does not feel like it has any attachment to Cloverfield whatsoever!
Because it just feels like they are making up the rules and lore of this universe as they go along!
You can’t just stick the monster at the end and call it a Cloverfield movie!
It’s like if Darth Vader appeared at the end “This was a Star Wars movie all along!” That’s how jarring it felt for me!
The bad thing is that Cloverfield, for all the unanswered questions, was a realitively simple concept. Now it just feels like they are over complicating something they don’t need to over complicate.
If Paradox is taking place before or during the events of the first film, why aren’t the characters in the first film talking about the whole energy crisis? Or the fact that apparently the Earth is loosing all of its power?! Or that countries might go to war over this?!
You think someone at that going away party would mention that. Or at least make it a priority over whether or not the two main leads are together!
It makes things seem so incoherent and over complicated.
I’m ranting too much. My point is, Cloverfield Paradox does not feel like a Cloverfield film. Or a film that has any links to the first film whatsoever besides shoving the monster in there with still no explanation about it!!! We could have had a simple, yet enjoyable, monster franchise. But nope! JJ Abrams wanted to make his own Event Horizon movie and claim it as a prequel!
MsAbixxx Those characters occupy a different universe. Maybe. I didn't like Paradox, but it certainly made that a possibility, which is why Abrams is a hack.
That said, I haven't liked any film he's directed. He didn't direct any of the Cloverfield films. But did he have as much involvement as the directors? Paradox certainly feels like a half arsed Abrams film, but then I expect many films do.
MsAbixxx I didn't like paradox either, but different dimensions was the whole point of it, answering why no one talks about it in the original. It's stupid, but that's the reason
I honestly don't think that any of those "unanswered questions" actually matter. I guess the answers would be interesting to know but the answers aren't "the point" or relevant to the movie. At least I think so.
redshirtscum
I can understand that. If this was a lone film and the possibility of any of these questions being answered was zero, then of course. The answers don’t matter.
But when you try and expand the universe in some way, be it a prequel or a sequel, the fans of the original will at least wonder about those unanswered questions. I know I did. Because the creature was the mystery! I of course want to know more about it.
Plus, they just stuck the creature in there as the only recognisable link Cloverfield Paradox had to Cloverfield. To me, if some of the questions aren’t answered then what’s the point? It just makes things even more confusing!
MsAbixxx the thing is, it's not a prequel or a sequel. I'm pretty sure they've been described as "sister flilms". they're related , but not the same thing if that makes sense. The answer is literally "different dimensions"
“Life” was the film that “paradox” wanted to be. It was fantastic horror/sci-fi.
omg yes!
¿Life? Ew, is just a Alien movie clone with a final fantasy monster design lol Not a bad film tho but nothing special to be praised at that level.
Fantastic? Omfg please weight your words
Life is a great film
More of a Venom prequel
"Life" actually does seem like it would work as a Cloverfield prequel movie. More than Paradox at least.
It's funny how you mention that A Quiet Place could be a Cloverfield movie because it was about to become one.
Also, I'm with that fun theory that briefcase in Pulp Fiction has Marcelus Wallece's soul in it.
The Mist could have probably been retitled 'The Cloverfield Fog' or something. The suspense and mystery of that film has a feel that would tie in better than either of the other two but also has the 'dimensional overlap' theory of Paradox but never really explains it.
But then I suppose it could have also been set in a town near Black Mesa. Just idle shower thoughts.
The mist is based off of a book though
JJ is a bad writer because he just makes questions without any answers planned
ContentOverStyle mystery is the catalyst for imagination
That exactly what he does and now hes going to do this closing the starwars sequel trilogy.
Anthony Martensen yeah, but when you write a mystery you need an answer planned, like Cloverfield was planned around the idea of not figuring it out and it works, but Star Wars? He just was like "we don't know Rey's parents, we don't know what Snoke is here for, we don't know where Luke's lightsaber was discovered" and then Rian Johnson has to make some shit up because there was no idea for an answer, that's just lazy and bad writing
+ContentOverStyle It truly is, and this is in "Star Wars" a beloved franchise, the most successful franchise of them all really; i mean its like a slap in the face to the fans.
Then they feminize the hero's journey, cram it full of PC and SJW bullshit and expect everyone to like it. Also remember how Rian was it? How him and that fat dude tried to make all the fans feel stupid by making them "Your Snoke Theory Sucks!" Cards?? Lol looking back at that now, knowing what we all know, it kind of makes them look like they were jealous they never came up with the intriguing ideas many fans thought of, behind exactly who/what Snoke could have been.
JJ is the worst writer out there, he should just be made to shoot commercials cause thats about all hes good for. He really should not be in the movie-making business.
Raiken Xion I just want the film industry to give a shit about art, I'm tired of Star Wars and I'm tired of Superheroes I just want more original stuff and less sequels and remakes
Everything he does is like a Sherlock episode with the last 8 minutes missing.
Ok, ya gonna hate me for that.
Stand user: J.J Abrams
Stand name: Mystery Box
Ability: gets people invested in pointless things
10 Cloverfield Lane was a wonderful little story that was butchered by having Cloverfield Frankenstein'd onto it.
10 cloverfield Lane was the first one I watched and I actually love it. It is chilling.
John Goodman shouting inches from the girls face legit shook me 😶
When I heard about Abrams “mystery box” technique everything made so much more sense, or rather, the lack of sense made sense.
12:43 If he was honest he'd say, "It's because we'd get more money if 'Cloverfield' was slapped on the title, even if it has nothing to do with the original." Hollywood Hacks.
I feel like many films with great concepts that churn out sequels fall victims to their own "mystery box" in the same way that some 80s slasher giants did. Did we need to know why Michael Myers is evil? Did we need to know how Freddy Krueger became a dream demon? What made them scary was not knowing why. Fans will eventually want to know more as the series goes along, it's just that the explanations are usually quite meh.
I like the Twilight Zone style the Cloverfield franchise is trying to do so I'm going to continue watching but I'm not getting my hopes up too high.
Yes, sometimes not knowing the monster's origin is best.
I'm looking at you Alien Covenant.
The Mystery Box, Abrams’ way of saying he has no idea how to properly structure a story. He can start them but not finish them.
I look at these Cloverfield sequels the same way I look at Blair witch 2 but at least that movie started development as a sequel. 10 Cloverfield lane is a good movie but its not a sequel, I love the original and I'm still waiting for a real sequel.
dominick darper I loved the first film since I was a kid and if I ever _do_ become a filmmaker and the Cloverfield series is still going on and still bullshitting around, _I_ want to be able to make an entry and also give it a proper send off. I want to make a film that actually _belongs_ in the series with an actual plan (I would probably even include things that they would add in later films if I like them and find them interesting like whatever’s going to happen in Overlord, if it’s good anyway), turn the negatives into positives and not just take the easy way out and pretend they never happened (like the ending to 10 Cloverfield Lane), have the world building and ideas make sense and please the fans. About the finale, if I want to give the series a proper ending with what they’ve added, it would have to be a miniseries, possibly a trilogy or more. If they want to take the parallel universe route, then I’ll go full on “Crisis on Infinite Earths,” or “COD Treyarch Zombies,” with it. Winstead’s character would return as one of the main characters (she expressed interest with returning to the series), and making her more like Ripley after all the character development she had, giving Teddy from the first film’s ARG a more starring role and expanding on his character, making Tagruato the main antagonist like they’re usually portrayed but giving them a gigantic role and presence in the films (not just the ARGs), showing more of the monsters and aliens, including fights between them, giving each of the parallel universes distinct identities, giving T.I.D.O. Wave a significant role since the first film’s ARG (and veerrrrrryyyyy briefly with the third film’s), giving them more of an antihero, vigilante vibe who have moved on from destroying Tagruato for the sake of the environment and are now destroying them for the sake of the multiverse itself (“This isn’t about protecting Mother Earth anymore,” as they would probably say). I’ll probably post my ideas in the form of stories on Fanfiction.net to give people an idea about what I want to do, but I want to wait a few more films first before I figure out what I want to do. I think experimenting with fan fiction is a good place to start if you want to be a writer but aren’t ready to make original stories (and I mean legitimately _good_ fanfiction that’s as good as a novel or short story and not just porn or random nonsense, though others can do what they want).
Troin Good luck with that. A lot of people try to make complex fan fiction and it turned out to be shit.
ADP1998 While I haven’t read any “complex,” fanfictions, I bet most of them focus on quantity over quality and have no idea what they’re doing. While some good fanfictions _do_ exist, even very high quality ones, they seem to be few and far between amidst all the random nonsense and lemon.
ADP1998 Because I actually _care_ about what I do, If I want to write fanfictions, I put thought into them first before I upload them. I have no interest in writing shipfics or porn, most of my ideas stem from crossovers, rewriting bad stories to make them better and what-if scenarios.
As far as Blair Witch 2, it should be noted (if you're unaware), the movie we got was far from the movie the writer/director wanted to give us. The producers totally fucked up everything, including adding all of the psyc-ward scenes. The movie, originally, was going to be a meta-Scream-take on its own genre and be more directly related than the chopped up shitty distant cousin that was Book of Shadows.
I got to say that I LOVE the idea of taking a found footage style film and retelling it from three different perspectives for a trilogy to get a complete narrative.
J.J. Abrhams: I have no originality, so I change certain nouns and fill the rest of the plot holes with excessive CGI
I don't know, LOST, Felicity, and Alias are pretty damn original.
George Daugherty He was only involved in Lost for about half of the first season.
Potato Priorites JJ Abrams: I want to create a monster that will be better than Godzilla because I’m unoriginal.
Like, seriously. Godzilla is better.
The unique thing he did with these movies, he's using websites and social media to tie them together as one big cooperate cover up.
The movies by themselves are, eh.
BUT add the online videos, cooperate websites, memos, hidden Easter eggs and more. It makes the whole thing an interactive sci-fi mystery. Awesome!
His mystery box usually fails in the payoff, he is great at setting up a cool question, but then no good answer to that question lol.
Creating mystery just for the sake of it sometimes works but it gets old fast, people want that moment of catharsis where all the elements of a mystery combine with that one piece that brings it all together in a satisfying revelation
It's doing a Troll 2 basically.
my god that's an excellent observation. troll 2 had barely any connection or none at all with the original troll, but they gave it the title despite this,
I couldn't said it better myself sir
I would have started my comment with “OH MY GODDDDDDDDDDD...” instead of “my god”
Walrus is in the Matrix bingo
MadGameBoy it didn’t have anything to do with it it just stole the name to get more views at the box office
I just keep losing faith in JJ Abrams.
This is why the New Star Wars trilogy doesn’t work and why there’s so many conflicting feelings.JJ doesn’t have a style, he scrap books bits and pieces from the original and hopes something new will come out and instead it’s a mess with ideas and stories we’ve already seen. And yet when Rian Johnson takes over The Last Jedi, a director with distinct style and new ideas, it’s met with extreme criticism because it doesn’t resemble the Lucas formula that JJ tried to duplicate. Say what you want about the trilogy, but at least we remember everything that happened in The Last Jedi and it actually has enjoyable moments. That’s more than I can say for the mess that was Skywalker Rises and JJ’s quick and shallow twist after he realized that he actually needs to have something in the mystery box.
One of the best examples I've seen of this is the Doctor Who episode "Midnight" (season 4 episode 10) it's not related to any other episode and functions more like a twilight zone episode so feel free to watch it with out fearing not knowing whats going on.
God, it's nice to see someone finally criticize J.J.
This is very interesting. I really like the idea of Cloverfield being simply a name for Twilight Zone-like films that are only connected by tone and style-unfortunately, Paradox ruined that by trying to force all three films into the same universe while simultaneously being uninterested in telling a compelling story. Personally, I think 10 Cloverfield Lane is an underrated masterpiece of Hitchcock-level tension and suspense, and I wish there would be more films that focused on telling as engaging stories as 10CL rather than trying to desperately tie together completely separate stories.
When you have Schrödinger’s cat, there still needs to be a cat and uranium inside that box. Can’t leave it empty and pretend there’s a cat in there
Oh really because it worked for Blair Witch 🤓 jk that movie sucked
13:32- That was the only part of the entire movie (plus her sudden bleeding + screaming building up to it) that legitimately scared me and stuck with me afterward. It made me more frightened of the small creatures than the giant one.
'The journey is more impactful then the ending' I interpret this as I have half baked ideas and screw the audience
You have a bad ending, it makes the journey worthless. Not that Abrams would know. He's notorious for being unable to stick the landing.
JJ Abrahams talking about his mystery box for hours on end
me: JUST TELL ME WHAT'S IN THE BOX !!!
That mystery box is nothing more than m night shmalamalan's cockiness effecting other writers.
JJ Abrams is like the Stephen Molyneux of films, they always get crushed by their own hype and the payoff never lives up to its build up
Peter Molyneux. Stephen is a Neo-Nazi.
Interestingly enough, I hated Cloverfield when I saw it in theaters; I found most of the characters just unlikable, so I had no investment in their story--so I ended up bored. I avoided 10 Cloverfield Lane when it came out in theaters (despite hearing good things), because I had disliked the original movie so much--when I finally sat down and watched it, I loved it. Perhaps it was because it was more character driven, perhaps because the style was more quiet and allowed me to think/speculate while watching the movie (instead of shakey-cam, 'WHAT WAS THAT' reactions)--and I found the 'what was it about' to be really compelling to me. That final shot of our hero making her decision was really fulfilling for me.
I haven't watched Paradox yet, and I have a feeling I won't enjoy it, given the mess it seems to be....but hey, Daniel Bruhl is in it. I've watched his handsome face in worse. ...well. Hopefully worse.
Well, 6 months later, did you see it ? What do you think ?
For me it was quite similar. I watched 10 Cloverfield Lane when it was in theatres, and I really loved it. (Besides the last 10 minutes that where a huge letdown for me) At this point I haven’t heard anything about Cloverfield at all, I just thought that the concept of 10 Cloverfield Lane was interesting. So I probably still would have watched it if it was called “The cellar” and had nothing to do with Cloverfield. When I watched the 2008 “Cloverfield” then I was rather disappointed. Not also because I didn’t liked the movie, but also because I than understand why the last 10 minutes of 10 Cloverfield Lane felt so added on and unfitting to the rest of the movie. If this connection to Cloverfield in the last 10 minutes wouldn’t have been made “10 Cloverfield Lane” could have been one of my favourite movies of all time. With that last 10 minutes and that connection its really just a “very good” movie for me.
Aren’t we lucky the movie wasn’t called “20 Cloverfield Lane”? 20 min of that added abomination would have killed me.
Abrams already announced an “official” sequel to the original Cloverfield is in production
And they just announced they’re working on a direct sequel the other day.
Please watch Fringe if you haven't, it's a show that was great from start to finish (very underrated sadly).
Even a small stuff that happened way back on S01 ended-up having some significance on the final episodes, which seems like a rarity on recent years.
The clover field story and lore are incredible.
Cloverfield 1 and Lane are phenomenal... paradox was absolutely nuts and maybe over the top but i can Appreciate it
I always felt that the connection between the movies were they were different stories in the same sci-fi anthology magazine called Cloverfield. I never needed any more connection than that. They could turn it into a new Heavy Metal magazine, or Outer Limits TV show and just keep it a place where talent both great and small could get together to make the sci-fi/creature features they want to make.
Mystery box? LMFAO I just keep thinking of that Family guy episode where you can get a boat or take the Mystery box...... "Lets get the Mystery Box it could be anything, even a boat."
The scene in Paradox where that lady is literally inside the walls of the ship gave me nightmares for weeks. Scariest part of the whole franchise tbh
omg TJ miller was in cloverfield
Tychoxi good ole Hud (rip)
Didn't he play the Meh emoji?
noodle, the role that will be his legacy
JJ Abrams doesn't even know what's in his mystery boxes, that's why LOST had so many questions left unanswered, and although I loved Cloverfield it ended so abruptly like they just got tired of shooting them running away from the monster.
Love this video but I want to remind Ryan that in the same way Jaws is thematically about a midlife crisis and ET is about divorce, Cloverfield has character drama waiting to be interpreted as well; the whole movie is "being filmed" over the footage of the main character's Island trip video with his girlfriend - the old footage nearly book ends the film.
To quote wikipedia: "...the entire movie was taped over Rob and Beth's Coney Island trip video... A final scene shows the ending of Rob and Beth's Coney Island video. In the backdrop, an unknown object crashes into the ocean. Rob points the camera back in their faces, where Beth says, "I had a good day.""
I'd love to hear Ryan's (or anyone's) analysis on this in the context of the movie.
I saw it as the end of the relationship by both life and the monster itself
Plus the object was put there to make you doubt the origin of the monster as that implies it's alien in origin while the websites and shit gave it more of an earthly origin
When I was 18, my dad took me to Watership Down on a roadtrip, lo and behold we spotted two rabbits scurrying along the trail. Hazel-rah’s legacy lives on to this day :)
This was very intelligently argued, and very sincere too. Thank you. Thank you for trying to hold filmmakers accountable for bad movies that happen to have good hype. We, the fans (an admittedly very loose-knit group) need to demand better movies, or we'll just get more of the same.
It's like a game my brother and I would play when we couldn't get to sleep at night. Taking random stuff that didn't happen together and slapping all together by a single plot thread I.E. El Dorado and Star Wars or something like that.
Episode IX is going to suck.
the entire new trilogy is forced and sucking people off through their nostalgia, it sucks and it isn't even over yet.
I have MUCH more interest in Rogue 1 and Solo than Episodes 7, 8 or 9. I mean, in the space of little more than a generation we go from "RETURN Of The Jedi" to "The LAST Jedi"? Check, please...
Yep absolutely
@@usmcfutball Bro, did you see The Last Jedi? The whole point is that it _isn't_ the end of the Jedi.
You were right
10:03 Higurashi: When They Cry and Umineko sort of does this, its really interesting to see. In Higurashi's anime adaption's case, each four episodes is a "loop" where different murders take place each time for different reasons, but are all caused by a single mystery.
I doubt this will be seen a year+ after this video went up, but I strongly recommend diving into Fringe. I have very mixed feelings about most of Abrams' work, but Fringe was the Magnum Opus that never got due respect. The series uses *concepts* inspired by classic sci-fi stories (occasional nods to X-Files / Twilight Zone ideas) but never a full re-hash of their plots - the rare times you think you know where a plotline is going, based on past stories you've seen, typically evolve into something far more intriguing (and typically more emotionally impactful - which Fringe absolutely shines in). There are also overt references, like casting classic sci-fi actors (Leonard Nimoy, Peter Weller) for minor roles, but each of those cases feature characters that are either inversions of the roles the actors behind them were known for, or fascinating juxtapositions of related ideas from a different perspective. I don't think it would make anyone an Abrams fanboy, but I do believe that Fringe is the case where Abrams' talents for writing and directing play out at their best: a marvelous mix of intrigue, incredible character development, and genre references that don't rule the narrative, which together come across as a beautiful love letter to science fiction storytelling.
I need to re-watch E.T. I missed the part where he turned into a huge monster, and collected people for food.
I simple thought, as I heard his "Mystery Box"-Stuff; Oh, he read HP Lovecraft or at least somebody explained his work to him.
I use to do restoration work on vintage cars and vintage race cars. To get paid I would have to write down everything I done. I turned in receipt of 8 hours of prep sanding for a paint job of an old Jaguar E-Type. The Accountant, my boss and my manager got on me because I wasn't descriptive enough. My manager pulled me aside (who had a better understanding of what was going on in the back shop than the other two) and gave me a piece of advice. "Dazzle them with brilliance or baffle them with bull$#!+." "Mystery Box", is the "Baffle them with bull$#!+".
"a magician never gives away his tricks." - JJ. Abrams
"Anyway I'll tell you all my gimmick" - JJ Abrams
I, for one, hate it when movies propose mysteries and don't provide answers simply because its more interesting to have it be mysterious. Its just frustrating to me.
I've always said Abrams is overrated and his "mystery box" style is an excuse for lazy writing and an inability to close a story.
Totally agree about how good mystery boxes are formed and maintained. I think another thing worth mentioning about mystery boxes is how they contextualize themselves when they are indeed planned out with a pre-conceived answer and then, for whatever reason, don't get to conclude (or if they do, it's much later or in a form different from how they were originally intended to end; cases in point that I'm thinking of are The OA, Aaron Guzikowski/Ridley Scott's Raised by Wolves, and Mervyn Peake's unfinished Gormenghast books). There's this weird tension that exists in situations like that between knowing there's an answer (and even seeing the clues indirectly showing to eagle-eyed viewers that that is indeed the answer), seeing how such a story has an unconventional structure that could do something totally different with that, and wondering how well the story can stand as an unanswered mystery box vs. how well it could (or could have) stood if it was allowed to do something genuinely original.
This was stellar and well-thought-out. Thank you for pointing out the good as well as pointing out the asinine cash grab, " mystery " that Loosely ties together these films the way JJ does the Cloverfield movies. Great video!
don't call it a 'mystery box' if there's nothing in it to garner our attention.
Long story short: v-jj is over rated.
Regardless of the weak connection between the three films, I think 10 Cloverfield Lane is a freaking masterpiece. Great performances, smart writing, realised characters, and tension-packed storytelling. It’s a near-perfect thriller.