As others have said and which I will unimaginatively repeat, as someone living 160 miles west of Chelsea and whose job now entails zero visits to London then the maps are really useful.
The maps are a huge help, as someone who has been to London exactly once, and lives on another continent a basic understanding of where lines go is immensely helpful
As someone not even living in the UK, the maps really help to get a sense of those proposals. Maybe in the future you can show the entire route on top of a google earth/maps screenshot?
Living in Chingford, a busy NE London suburb, it's always irked me that we are not on the tube, whilst some places like Acton and Ruislip have three or four each.😡
I liked the brief maps too👍 "Ministers are even more ignorant than me..." Too modest again sir😀. Anyone who can keep us nerds so abley entertained must be comparatively well informed. Keep up the good work
Definitely do the Hackney-Chelsea line proposal. I am suitably intrigued 🤔 There is a certain irony in that the line involved was called Victoria and the block came because the residents (literally and metaphorically) saw a tube station on their manor as ‘beneath them, because I am quite sure that had the actual Victoria said how much she wanted a tube station in Chelsea it would have happened and all the sycophant residents would have fallen over themselves to claim that they had wanted one all along 🙄 Ah well, that’s progress for ya 🤷🏻♂️ Cheers old fruit! Highly entertaining, informative and cuttingly witty as ever 👍🍀🍻
Yay, maps! Cheers, Jago. They make it SOOOOO much easier to understand! (Though that audio glitch at 2:02 when the second map is shown made me jump - or was that a deliberate ploy to test to see if I was awake?)
... How sensual some people are is bewildering / irritating / funny. Or is the reason I don't mind just that I think in terms of processes and that I know humans make mistakes. Only the dangerous ones need full attention 😉
There will be a station in Kings Road in Chelsea in the 2030s maybe (run by Crossrail 2). However, some people aren’t happy with the idea, and it’s possible that the plan could be scrapped, and therefore direct Crossrail 2 from Clapham Junction to Victoria. Oh, and one more thing. There have been two attempts of a Chelsea to Hackney line in 1974 and 1988, but both have been unsuccessful.
I live almost 6,000 miles from Dovehouse Green but once wandered within a hundred yards from it. It's a pain in the ass to walk from there to the next tube station I wanna go to (South Kensington), but I kind of understand why there's not a tube line through the place -- the locals would be quite unhappy with the construction I guess.
Recently I’ve had to travel from Enfield to Chelsea for work, the line would’ve been handy. Route C imagine what could’ve been though, a stop for Tottenham Hotspur Stadium and a possible extension to Edmonton, which apparently was a suggested terminus for Victoria and Piccadilly lines. Maybe that’s a video in itself.
What happened to the Chingford link? I'll also repeat my request for a video on the construction of the Victoria line that ended up being built and how it managed to connect so clean opposite existing platforms at Stockwell, Euston and Oxford Circus (and Highbury and Islington which I missed and any other platform connections I missed).
This is probably poor YT etiquette, but I have a request. My IG feed advised tours of the London tram tunnels were being organised, and I was hoping you might be able to partake, with the outcome hopefully being a video?
One little bit omitted.... was that the original planned northern terminus in was Wood Street. In the early 60's this was cut back to Hoe Street (now Walthamstow Central)
Speaking to my neighbours, there appears to be no interest in having a Crossrail station in Chelsea, in fact the campaign against it is led by Felicity Kendal.
Don't you love it when "celebrities" campaign against terrible things ....... like public transport? Much better to keep the streets of Chelsea crammed with 4x4s with clean tyres and bull-bars. Imagine, some residents might meet people who travel on Crossrail = eeew!!
Greetings XJ6. Regarding the work of the committee, I'm not sure if you realised it already but 3 anagrams (amongst many, some of which are very rude) of "London Plan Working" are "All doing known porn", " Noon gin plankworld" and "W*nking on porn doll". A little light "relief" for this subject you have presented to the usual high standard. Do keep up the good work in the community. Kind regards as always
I seem to remember one of the possible lines being referred to as the 'Wimbledon-Hainault Line' (WimHain Line doesn't really work, does it?) It would have used the District Line to Putney Bridge, and then veer east down a tunnel towards Chelsea, calling at 'Worlds End' (Sands End), Chelsea Town Hall, Sloan Square, Victoria and then points eastwards, eventually using the Central Line branch to Hainault.
You remind me of London Reconnections' maxim - the drama in the contents a report about London's Transport report are in inverse proportion to the drama in the title.
Another great video, thank you Mr Hazzard! I love the use of maps. Does nothing to detract from your great whit, humour and knowledge. In fact, they enhance it! Keep it up sir and look forward to seeing more videos!
What should actually have happened is the Victoria Line extension to Coulsdon North, where there was room for a depot. It should have followed the old London-Brighton road through Streatham, Norbury, West Croydon, Central Croydon, and then onwards, again following the road, to Stoat's Nest, surfacing, and terminating at Coulsdon North. Unfortunately, they have now demolished the station there and the depot area, replacing it with a much-un-needed bypass, but this could be removed fairly easily, displacing only a number of car dealers. The problem with BR services to Streatham, Norbury, and points south, is that they do not follow the road, and those are the places which most people want to connect with, so they prefer the bus, which is too slow. They therefore use their cars.
Coulsdon North station closed in the 1980's. Rather than build a new tube line, duplicating much of the excellent main line train service into London Victoria from East Croydon, I always thought that they should have extended the northern end of the M23 at Hooley to Coulsdon and then built a massive underground car park in Coulsdon possibly utilising the now closed Cane Hill hospital whilst building a big new station combining Coulsdon South, Coulsdon North, and Smitham/Coulsdon Town and then run frequent Park and Ride services from this new station to or from mainline London stations.
@@trevordance5181 You miss my point, which is that none of the existing stations between Coulsdon and London are well-placed close to local centres and do not therefore attract local traffic. London commuters locate their homes close enough to existing BR stations, which, frankly, is all they are good for. There is great scope for an Underground extension between Brixton and Coulsdon, provided it connects the centres on that route directly. Stations might be: Brixton Prison, Telford Avenue, Streatham Hill (BR), St Leonard's Church, Greyhound Lane, Norbury (BR), Pollards Hill, Thornton Heath Pond, Mayday, West Croydon (BR), Central Croydon, Swan & Sugarloaf, Red Deer, Royal Oak, Purley Fountain, Stoat's Nest, Coulsdon North. Possibly even tunnel into the North Downs (chalk: easy) to Farthing Down, Old Coulsdon, Happy Valley, Caterham-on-the-Hill. Since this follows almost exactly the old 709 Green Line route, and as we are all supposed to be “green” these days, I'd suggest naming this, and re-naming the rest of the Victoria Line, the “Green Line”.
@@trevordance5181 We moved to a house in Coulsdon that was served only by the 405 and 414 buses, and the 710 Green Line coach, which would be a useful way of getting to Croydon or Redhill. Within weeks they withdrew it!
@@allenwilliams1306 Yes, the 414 from West Croydon to Horsham via Dorking, and the 405 from West Croydon, at one time to Horsham via Crawley, then cutback to Crawley, and now it only goes as far as Redhill.
Indeed , but well connected to London with the Jazz Service to Liverpool Street - which had passenger and train number problems at the Liverpool Street end, hence the idea of reliving some of the strain on that and other routes. Really the Victoria should have gone Highams Park - Chingford then over toward Hainault area to improve links to the council estate there and take some strain off the Central Line.
@@highpath4776 and been impossible to get on anywhere west of Walthamstow Central. The existing line is crowded enough in normal times without passengers from further north east.
Hi Jago. I'd love to see a video (suspect it may be more than one) about why the tube is so top heavy. You have lines stretching out into Hertfordshire, Buckinghamshire and Essex and yet south of the river lines fizzle out still well within the bounds of greater London. I've read of moves by train company owners south of the river blocking plans to extend the underground going much further south to protect their investments, but don't know how much truth there is in these tales. Might make an interesting subject? If you've got a tube station at Amersham, why did one never appear in Weybridge or Bromley for example?
1. Geology, S of the river was once a marsh, difficult ground for tunnelling. 2. Consequence of this is that the city developed on higher ground N of the river. So, In the C19 there was still plenty of open ground to the south for surface lines, whereas to the N hills and the need to demolish existing building impeded surface rail.
I didn't realise that "Route D" became "Chealsea Hackney Line" and then "Crossrail 2". Given that the process is one going from undersized Victoria Line platforms (responsible for multiple short emergency closures of the entrances at Oxford Street) to full size National Rail trains on Crossrail 1, I think it is probably safe to say that the Era of "New Tube Lines in London" is officially over. (Extensions like the JLE, NLE and BLE: YES - but new lines: NO.) And I think that, moving forward, Crossrail-like projects that replace the need for people to get off of a National Rail train, cross London Underground Zone 1, and then get onto another National Rail train on the other side of Central London, are going to be the business case that makes Crossrail 2, Crossrail 3, Crossrail 4, etc happen. Edward Watkin didn't really want the Metropolitan Railway to be part of London Underground. I actually think that the future of the Chilten Railway from Aylesbury to London might be to replace Marylebone station with a Crossrail-style project that connects to somewhere in Kent. Logically, it might be good to take over the old South Eastern Railway lines to Dover and Kent and create a modern (more sensible) version of what Watkin was trying to do.
British Rail actually owned the tracks and stations from Wimbledon to Putney until the 1990s. It was their staff in the ticket offices. I think it was around the time of BR privatisation that it was agreed all round that London Underground would be the better owners.
I remember when we moved to Croydon in the early 70's there was all kinds of talk of underground railways running under our road, though as I was only 3 at the time I dont know whether they related to a Victoria line extension or the proposed Channel tunnel line.
The Victoria Line was cut back at the Northern end as well; it never got to Wood Street with a cross-platform Interchange with BR. Underground lines terminating one stop short of where they were intended to seems to have been a thing, Denham and Camberwell didn’t happen either, though Camberwell did appear as a destination on the old indicator at Warwick Avenue, covered over with black paint. Tramlink didn’t get as far as intended either, it was supposed to terminate at the library/swimming pool, though I’m not sure if this would have been an additional stop, or just a re-location of the existing one. The distance between them would have been very short.
What nice neat mapping. If I remember, the source maps as produced were an explosion in a spaghetti factory. It was just after the war so maybe colour was rationed because by the looks of it they were that overjoyed to get even just a couple but had little idea how to use it.
I spent my childhood about mid-way between Fulham Broadway and your Chelsea Station, so I walked this route hundreds of times, or took the 11 or 22 bus. Or 'got on my bike'.
My father for one would have been a fan of the Chelsea Station, as his daily commute to LT's Lots Road Power Station would have been improved. During his time as Power Supply Manager for the Tube in the 80s and early 90s he used to complain about the walk from Sloane Sq when it rained. I'm sure he would have been interested in your videos, from a professional point of view and as an enthusiast. His work as a junior electrical engineer included work on the 60s improvements to power supply on the Northern Line ( partly an implementation of the Northern Heights upgrades, part new works) and the design of elements of the Victoria Line power supply. I had a number of my toys repaired by the fitters at Coburg Street Substation when that was a manned workshop, as he had an office there for a while. Maps! Good! ;-)
Fortunately, my workplace was within 10 minutes of Sloane Square. However, there were many times when I had wished for a tube station further into Chelsea. It's a heck of a walk to Fulham and the 'buses never seemed any faster owing to heavy traffic.
In London transport days at least the District Line was not a "Tube Line" but a Sub-surface" Undergound line. (you can run a tube train on a sub-surface line but the other way round you take the roof off. :-)
On a vaguely-related note, at 4:22 onwards where you explain the problems that would arise if two lines were to share the same tracks, platforms and signalling - I guess this is why no "bright spark" has come up with the idea of the brand-new spur of the Northern Line from Kennington loop in tunnels to Nine Elms and the Battersea mega-development continuing : • southwest to Clapham Junct`n (just imagine an Underground station at rush-hour there 😮), • then west-south-west to Wandsworth Road and • then rise to come out in the open over a new light-rail bridge crossing the Wandle (Wandsworth Creek) to pick up the little(?)-used British Rail chord spur just west of Putney Bridge Road and [a] terminate at East Putney on the virtually-disused third platform there (5:39 - 5:47), or [b] share the District from just after East Putney through Southfields and Wimbledon Park to Wimbledon. I guess this flight of fancy wouldn't work because : 1. The stations in section [b] couldn't share the signalling load 2. TfL have no money for it/ need what little they can scrape together to modernise other lines 3. South-Western Railway or some freight operator will probably want to retain the East Putney chord to run the occasional train that is nothing to do with TfL round it, towards Clapham Junction and the big bad city, in the wee small hours. Many tens of thousands of tennis fans might though appreciate an alternative way (line - to the District out of Earl's Court) down to/ back up from Southfields for the Wimbledon Championships; OK, OK there are around 350 days a year where Southfields is not 'rammed', but, the above 'flight of fancy' might be an interesting link idea...
Considering from Jay Foreman's videos how completely stuck up and resistant Chelsea are to change (name changes and the Cycle Route) and the existing Underground Faculties are behind a veneer of a fake Mansion (from various CZcamsrs like Geoff Marshall and Half-Asleep Chris), it'll take some kicking and screaming for them to even accept an Underground Station.
"Hello, this is Captain Grrrr-Uhnnnrhh, MP for Chelsea. If you dig a tube tunnel under my garden I will come round and hurhhgh hrrrr ggrrrghghnnnekhhh..."
It's an old issue too - look at a map of London's former tram system and you will find a gaping hole where the Royal Borough refused to allow access to their territory
Chelsea resident of three decades here. Yes, you are right, residents are resistant to change. Personally I believe that a stop half way down the Kings Road makes a lot of sense, it's noticeable mostly by its absence. The residents are against it because of the soulless retail spaces bolted onto it in the proposals. The same is the case for the proposed redevelopment of the the Marks and Spencer site. If you look at Kings Mall across the road, it's been a retail failure for as long as I can remember: the argument is that mall style retail spaces don't work on the KR and thus become run down & neglected.
I went to school in Chelsea and worked in the heart of Chelsea in the 80s and 90s for 13 years and the lack of a tube station meant a rather long walk every day down Pelham Street and Sydney Street from South Kensington tube in the very North of Chelsea or along Kings Road from Sloane Square on the extreme east of Chelsea. BTW Knighstbridge station is also officially in Chelsea but again on the very edge. A station somewhere around Beaufort Street would have been ideal.
I think an extra branch of the Viking line from Victoria to Richmond via Putney intersecting with the Wimbledon branch of the District line there would be very useful.
I like the idea as sometimes the district is a bit delayed but that's also a issue with the idea, when it's delayed you can have all four platforms at Wimbledon, already full, they would probably of best running it underground, basically extending there tunnel to Wimbledon under all the district line stations, that would of meant making a lift to it, so it would of probably not got a go ahead.
The District wanted to go to Sutton, but the LSWR (Southern) were not happy, The C&SLR Wanted to Go to Sutton Too. With a bit of moving about in the end , the Wimbledon-Sutton Loop got built and the Northern Got Morden, and the District got running rights to Wimbledon. Personally I think Wimbledon needs better links to West London, so running the District alternate trains off at Parsons Greenish and off onto the WLL , reinstating the mainline Willesden Junction line and up to Watford. I think this would work.
5:20 Is that the Supperclub tube train restaurant at the Walthamstow Pumphouse Museum? Also, fascinating to see Angel Road proposed as a terminus. Great video as always. Thanks Jago.
Somehow I had completely missed that Sloane Square had had it's green tiles replaced by white ones. Even more weird is I was actually a commuter on that route when it happened. I must have been asleep. Such a shame to lose the character of the green ones, even if they were only put up in the 80s. They were much more interesting than those white ones.
A Chelsea station would be a godsend for those of us who live in Chelsea and actually rely on public transport but, alas, it will never happen as the history of the last 150 years and nimbyish opposition have demonstrated
If adding a station at Chelsea is a funding issue, just tell Roman Abramovich that there is a stunning Greek footballer available called Stationus Platformiakis, and the money will be there instantly!
Has Jago done an episode on Southfield's Station? The architecture is quite bizarre looking to my eye, a pyramid with chimneys. Would love to know more. 8:02
@@highpath4776 Wimbledon Park and Southfields were identical originally. The platform buildings are more or less the same, but the street level building at Southfields has been extended since LU took them over from BR in the 1990s.
You hit the mark with "does Chelsea want a station." Big No to that one. FT, 2016: “If a Crossrail station is built here, it will destroy Chelsea as we know it. We are not opposed to Crossrail 2, we just *don’t want a station in Chelsea* said Felicity Kendal, the actor, and one of the celebrity backers of a campaign against the station. I mean, the City of London was a lovely sleepy town not far from Stepney, then WHAM! Liverpool St, Canon St, Blackfriars, Fenchurch St and a gazillion tube stops and looked what happened?
Will there ever be a Chelsea tube station? While not technically a "tube" station, as you say Crossrail 2 proposals have included King's Road Chelsea. Well-healed locals have been against it: Felicity Kendal lives in Carlisle Square just down the road and is none too keen having all those extra proles about. I've lived in and around Chelsea for 30 years, and it's always been a bit of a desert for tube stops. For commuting, I switched to the riverbus some years ago to save the trek up to Sloane Square.
Not related to this video but wanted to point out LTM have got real heavy duty cast aluminium tube sliding door treadplates back in stock £95, I don't work for them
How about a vid covering the stations twinned with European stations abroad. I recall Victoria was twinned with Harburg. There was a roundel on the underground commemorating this.
My dad moved from Chelsea to Croydon... Then Sanderstead, now Hayes. I'm starting to think he's the tube station curse.
Do you know if he insulted any old gypsy women as a lad?
@@harbl99 The term is Roma now
@@jasonhaven7170Its a movie reference
As others have said and which I will unimaginatively repeat, as someone living 160 miles west of Chelsea and whose job now entails zero visits to London then the maps are really useful.
I live 250 miles north, but I'm very familiar with London. Nevertheless, I still find the maps essential.
The maps are a huge help, as someone who has been to London exactly once, and lives on another continent a basic understanding of where lines go is immensely helpful
As someone not even living in the UK, the maps really help to get a sense of those proposals. Maybe in the future you can show the entire route on top of a google earth/maps screenshot?
Really good to see the maps on this one :) Excellent stuff, as ever!
Keeping with the zeitgeist of Marvel’s current series, you could call it “Jago’s What If?…”
As a resident of Brixton, I am very glad the Tube came here!
Living in Chingford, a busy NE London suburb, it's always irked me that we are not on the tube, whilst some places like Acton and Ruislip have three or four each.😡
At least you are nearly on the Tube by changing at Walthamstow ...
@@iankemp1131 Buckhurst Hill and Woodford on the Central Line are nearest to me.
Does Chelsea want its own underground station?
Gawsh no darling, imagine all those oiks from the suburbs invading .
Is that the newest westwaunt or dithcotheque dahling?
Interesting to hear how the spaghetti junction of the London Underground could have been so different.
I liked the brief maps too👍
"Ministers are even more ignorant than me..."
Too modest again sir😀. Anyone who can keep us nerds so abley entertained must be comparatively well informed.
Keep up the good work
It still holds true that ministers are far more ignorant than Jago.
The maps really help, thank you! Interesting video as usual. 👍
With or without the river? 🤔 #contraversial
Definitely do the Hackney-Chelsea line proposal. I am suitably intrigued 🤔
There is a certain irony in that the line involved was called Victoria and the block came because the residents (literally and metaphorically) saw a tube station on their manor as ‘beneath them, because I am quite sure that had the actual Victoria said how much she wanted a tube station in Chelsea it would have happened and all the sycophant residents would have fallen over themselves to claim that they had wanted one all along 🙄
Ah well, that’s progress for ya 🤷🏻♂️
Cheers old fruit! Highly entertaining, informative and cuttingly witty as ever 👍🍀🍻
0:58 this guys rushing home to catch your latest upload
They want to do Hernes Hill for Victoria line too, but I actually heavily doubt that it'll happen within my lifetime (im 15 btw)
Yay, maps! Cheers, Jago. They make it SOOOOO much easier to understand! (Though that audio glitch at 2:02 when the second map is shown made me jump - or was that a deliberate ploy to test to see if I was awake?)
... How sensual some people are is bewildering / irritating / funny.
Or is the reason I don't mind just that I think in terms of processes and that I know humans make mistakes. Only the dangerous ones need full attention 😉
Great video! But no wombles joke? No underground overground wobling free joke, tsk you missed that one 😁😭
Ooh, diagrams! A wonderful addition to Lines That Never Were, innit?
There will be a station in Kings Road in Chelsea in the 2030s maybe (run by Crossrail 2). However, some people aren’t happy with the idea, and it’s possible that the plan could be scrapped, and therefore direct Crossrail 2 from Clapham Junction to Victoria.
Oh, and one more thing. There have been two attempts of a Chelsea to Hackney line in 1974 and 1988, but both have been unsuccessful.
Chelsea the place to retire to if you register on the NIMBY list
I live almost 6,000 miles from Dovehouse Green but once wandered within a hundred yards from it. It's a pain in the ass to walk from there to the next tube station I wanna go to (South Kensington), but I kind of understand why there's not a tube line through the place -- the locals would be quite unhappy with the construction I guess.
NIMBYism at its finest.
(Not In My back Yard)
@@OofusTwillip Surely absolutely everybody in Chelsea has an electric car now...well, anybody worth mentioning, that is.
To quote Elvis Costello. " I dont want to go to Chelsea, Oh No it does not move me".
Recently I’ve had to travel from Enfield to Chelsea for work, the line would’ve been handy. Route C imagine what could’ve been though, a stop for Tottenham Hotspur Stadium and a possible extension to Edmonton, which apparently was a suggested terminus for Victoria and Piccadilly lines. Maybe that’s a video in itself.
What happened to the Chingford link? I'll also repeat my request for a video on the construction of the Victoria line that ended up being built and how it managed to connect so clean opposite existing platforms at Stockwell, Euston and Oxford Circus (and Highbury and Islington which I missed and any other platform connections I missed).
This is probably poor YT etiquette, but I have a request. My IG feed advised tours of the London tram tunnels were being organised, and I was hoping you might be able to partake, with the outcome hopefully being a video?
I went on one and the filming of video is strictly prohibited, I assume to increase visitor numbers
One little bit omitted.... was that the original planned northern terminus in was Wood Street. In the early 60's this was cut back to Hoe Street (now Walthamstow Central)
Speaking to my neighbours, there appears to be no interest in having a Crossrail station in Chelsea, in fact the campaign against it is led by Felicity Kendal.
Don't you love it when "celebrities" campaign against terrible things ....... like public transport? Much better to keep the streets of Chelsea crammed with 4x4s with clean tyres and bull-bars. Imagine, some residents might meet people who travel on Crossrail = eeew!!
Felicity Kendall, that cautionary tale of cosmetic surgery, and arch nimby.
Greetings XJ6. Regarding the work of the committee, I'm not sure if you realised it already but 3 anagrams (amongst many, some of which are very rude) of "London Plan Working" are "All doing known porn", " Noon gin plankworld" and "W*nking on porn doll". A little light "relief" for this subject you have presented to the usual high standard. Do keep up the good work in the community. Kind regards as always
I seem to remember one of the possible lines being referred to as the 'Wimbledon-Hainault Line' (WimHain Line doesn't really work, does it?) It would have used the District Line to Putney Bridge, and then veer east down a tunnel towards Chelsea, calling at 'Worlds End' (Sands End), Chelsea Town Hall, Sloan Square, Victoria and then points eastwards, eventually using the Central Line branch to Hainault.
You remind me of London Reconnections' maxim - the drama in the contents a report about London's Transport report are in inverse proportion to the drama in the title.
Another great video, thank you Mr Hazzard! I love the use of maps. Does nothing to detract from your great whit, humour and knowledge. In fact, they enhance it! Keep it up sir and look forward to seeing more videos!
Again this channel has informed me of things I didn't know about despite an interest in the Underground. Thanks, Jago!
What should actually have happened is the Victoria Line extension to Coulsdon North, where there was room for a depot. It should have followed the old London-Brighton road through Streatham, Norbury, West Croydon, Central Croydon, and then onwards, again following the road, to Stoat's Nest, surfacing, and terminating at Coulsdon North. Unfortunately, they have now demolished the station there and the depot area, replacing it with a much-un-needed bypass, but this could be removed fairly easily, displacing only a number of car dealers. The problem with BR services to Streatham, Norbury, and points south, is that they do not follow the road, and those are the places which most people want to connect with, so they prefer the bus, which is too slow. They therefore use their cars.
Coulsdon North station closed in the 1980's. Rather than build a new tube line, duplicating much of the excellent main line train service into London Victoria from East Croydon, I always thought that they should have extended the northern end of the M23 at Hooley to Coulsdon and then built a massive underground car park in Coulsdon possibly utilising the now closed Cane Hill hospital whilst building a big new station combining Coulsdon South, Coulsdon North, and Smitham/Coulsdon Town and then run frequent Park and Ride services from this new station to or from mainline London stations.
@@trevordance5181 You miss my point, which is that none of the existing stations between Coulsdon and London are well-placed close to local centres and do not therefore attract local traffic. London commuters locate their homes close enough to existing BR stations, which, frankly, is all they are good for. There is great scope for an Underground extension between Brixton and Coulsdon, provided it connects the centres on that route directly. Stations might be: Brixton Prison, Telford Avenue, Streatham Hill (BR), St Leonard's Church, Greyhound Lane, Norbury (BR), Pollards Hill, Thornton Heath Pond, Mayday, West Croydon (BR), Central Croydon, Swan & Sugarloaf, Red Deer, Royal Oak, Purley Fountain, Stoat's Nest, Coulsdon North. Possibly even tunnel into the North Downs (chalk: easy) to Farthing Down, Old Coulsdon, Happy Valley, Caterham-on-the-Hill. Since this follows almost exactly the old 709 Green Line route, and as we are all supposed to be “green” these days, I'd suggest naming this, and re-naming the rest of the Victoria Line, the “Green Line”.
@@allenwilliams1306 I remember the 709 Green Line and the 710 also which used to have its southern terminus in Crawley.
@@trevordance5181 We moved to a house in Coulsdon that was served only by the 405 and 414 buses, and the 710 Green Line coach, which would be a useful way of getting to Croydon or Redhill. Within weeks they withdrew it!
@@allenwilliams1306 Yes, the 414 from West Croydon to Horsham via Dorking, and the 405 from West Croydon, at one time to Horsham via Crawley, then cutback to Crawley, and now it only goes as far as Redhill.
Thanks for this latest episode from the "Proposals and Rejections" series. Contractual obligation satisfied, algorithm ticked, revenue pending.
Until 1965 the the eastern boundary of London north of the Thames was the River Lea, so Chingford was possibly still Essex in 1949.
Indeed , but well connected to London with the Jazz Service to Liverpool Street - which had passenger and train number problems at the Liverpool Street end, hence the idea of reliving some of the strain on that and other routes. Really the Victoria should have gone Highams Park - Chingford then over toward Hainault area to improve links to the council estate there and take some strain off the Central Line.
@@highpath4776 and been impossible to get on anywhere west of Walthamstow Central. The existing line is crowded enough in normal times without passengers from further north east.
@@robertbutlin3708 I thought the number of trains beyond Seven Sisters was increased recently
@@highpath4776 indeed it was. But they are still pretty full.
And Enfield would of been in Hertfordshire and one time in Middlesex.
Im not from the uk nor am i interested in knowing subway routes, and yet here am i watching. Youtune recommendation strikes again
Blue n Gold? As in U of Del?
Hi Jago. I'd love to see a video (suspect it may be more than one) about why the tube is so top heavy. You have lines stretching out into Hertfordshire, Buckinghamshire and Essex and yet south of the river lines fizzle out still well within the bounds of greater London. I've read of moves by train company owners south of the river blocking plans to extend the underground going much further south to protect their investments, but don't know how much truth there is in these tales. Might make an interesting subject? If you've got a tube station at Amersham, why did one never appear in Weybridge or Bromley for example?
1. Geology, S of the river was once a marsh, difficult ground for tunnelling.
2. Consequence of this is that the city developed on higher ground N of the river. So, In the C19 there was still plenty of open ground to the south for surface lines, whereas to the N hills and the need to demolish existing building impeded surface rail.
First time watching this channel....this man sounds nearly exactly like the British man from the channel Lost in the Pond!!
2:25 my favourite south of the river station!! (spot the tennis fan)
"By 1953, the line between Victoria and Fulham"... which just one year earlier had its name changed from Walham Green to Fulham Broadway...
Love your videos in my area...you are the king's road to my Chelsea 🥰
I didn't realise that "Route D" became "Chealsea Hackney Line" and then "Crossrail 2". Given that the process is one going from undersized Victoria Line platforms (responsible for multiple short emergency closures of the entrances at Oxford Street) to full size National Rail trains on Crossrail 1, I think it is probably safe to say that the Era of "New Tube Lines in London" is officially over. (Extensions like the JLE, NLE and BLE: YES - but new lines: NO.)
And I think that, moving forward, Crossrail-like projects that replace the need for people to get off of a National Rail train, cross London Underground Zone 1, and then get onto another National Rail train on the other side of Central London, are going to be the business case that makes Crossrail 2, Crossrail 3, Crossrail 4, etc happen.
Edward Watkin didn't really want the Metropolitan Railway to be part of London Underground. I actually think that the future of the Chilten Railway from Aylesbury to London might be to replace Marylebone station with a Crossrail-style project that connects to somewhere in Kent. Logically, it might be good to take over the old South Eastern Railway lines to Dover and Kent and create a modern (more sensible) version of what Watkin was trying to do.
You should do a video of having dinner in the old tube restaurant in Walthamstow. Its pricey but worth it!
@Haris Holmes its usually a tasting menu of 6 small dishes, last I checked around £140 a head just on food
@@edencann5196 I knew Walthamstow had been gentrified but not to that degree!
For that sort of price, I'd want overnight accommodation and free beer included.
British Rail actually owned the tracks and stations from Wimbledon to Putney until the 1990s. It was their staff in the ticket offices. I think it was around the time of BR privatisation that it was agreed all round that London Underground would be the better owners.
I think it is in fact still part of Network Rail, it still has BR signalling
@@AndreiTupolev you’re right, thanks. I’ve just been looking, and it appears it’s still Network Rail signalling and power supply.
Loving the maps, helps us non Londoners with the geography!
I remember when we moved to Croydon in the early 70's there was all kinds of talk of underground railways running under our road, though as I was only 3 at the time I dont know whether they related to a Victoria line extension or the proposed Channel tunnel line.
"Are We Going To Have A Rootsy?" ....
"No, We're Going To Have A Route-C, That's "C" For Cat....."
Great to see the maps diagrams; they really help. I hope they don’t take too long to prepare.
Jago, I love that--even though you don't love maps--you've added some lovely maps for people like me who really do love maps.
The Victoria Line was cut back at the Northern end as well; it never got to Wood Street with a cross-platform Interchange with BR. Underground lines terminating one stop short of where they were intended to seems to have been a thing, Denham and Camberwell didn’t happen either, though Camberwell did appear as a destination on the old indicator at Warwick Avenue, covered over with black paint.
Tramlink didn’t get as far as intended either, it was supposed to terminate at the library/swimming pool, though I’m not sure if this would have been an additional stop, or just a re-location of the existing one. The distance between them would have been very short.
What nice neat mapping. If I remember, the source maps as produced were an explosion in a spaghetti factory. It was just after the war so maybe colour was rationed because by the looks of it they were that overjoyed to get even just a couple but had little idea how to use it.
ur voice is so soothing 😫😫😫
I spent my childhood about mid-way between Fulham Broadway and your Chelsea Station, so I walked this route hundreds of times, or took the 11 or 22 bus. Or 'got on my bike'.
My father for one would have been a fan of the Chelsea Station, as his daily commute to LT's Lots Road Power Station would have been improved. During his time as Power Supply Manager for the Tube in the 80s and early 90s he used to complain about the walk from Sloane Sq when it rained. I'm sure he would have been interested in your videos, from a professional point of view and as an enthusiast. His work as a junior electrical engineer included work on the 60s improvements to power supply on the Northern Line ( partly an implementation of the Northern Heights upgrades, part new works) and the design of elements of the Victoria Line power supply. I had a number of my toys repaired by the fitters at Coburg Street Substation when that was a manned workshop, as he had an office there for a while.
Maps! Good! ;-)
I guess there is enough abandoned ideas from the Victoria line to make it's own line.
Hope that dude got his train
And I thought the Chelsea Underground was a political movement
Thanks for including maps, as a Londoner it's impossible to know the whole place, especially those places the tube never made it to.
Loving your work Buddy
One intresting potential branch for me was the CLR creating a deep level station at Turnham Green then going down to Richmond with the District.
I imagine most Chelsea-ites would object to giving any easier access to their own little world.
Fortunately, my workplace was within 10 minutes of Sloane Square. However, there were many times when I had wished for a tube station further into Chelsea. It's a heck of a walk to Fulham and the 'buses never seemed any faster owing to heavy traffic.
In London transport days at least the District Line was not a "Tube Line" but a Sub-surface" Undergound line. (you can run a tube train on a sub-surface line but the other way round you take the roof off. :-)
On a vaguely-related note, at 4:22 onwards where you explain the problems that would arise if two lines were to share the same tracks, platforms and signalling - I guess this is why no "bright spark" has come up with the idea of the brand-new spur of the Northern Line from Kennington loop in tunnels to Nine Elms and the Battersea mega-development continuing :
• southwest to Clapham Junct`n (just imagine an Underground station at rush-hour there 😮),
• then west-south-west to Wandsworth Road and
• then rise to come out in the open over a new light-rail bridge crossing the Wandle (Wandsworth Creek) to pick up the little(?)-used British Rail chord spur just west of Putney Bridge Road and
[a] terminate at East Putney on the virtually-disused third platform there (5:39 - 5:47), or
[b] share the District from just after East Putney through Southfields and Wimbledon Park to Wimbledon.
I guess this flight of fancy wouldn't work because :
1. The stations in section [b] couldn't share the signalling load
2. TfL have no money for it/ need what little they can scrape together to modernise other lines
3. South-Western Railway or some freight operator will probably want to retain the East Putney chord to run the occasional train that is nothing to do with TfL round it, towards Clapham Junction and the big bad city, in the wee small hours.
Many tens of thousands of tennis fans might though appreciate an alternative way (line - to the District out of Earl's Court) down to/ back up from Southfields for the Wimbledon Championships; OK, OK there are around 350 days a year where Southfields is not 'rammed', but, the above 'flight of fancy' might be an interesting link idea...
Considering from Jay Foreman's videos how completely stuck up and resistant Chelsea are to change (name changes and the Cycle Route) and the existing Underground Faculties are behind a veneer of a fake Mansion (from various CZcamsrs like Geoff Marshall and Half-Asleep Chris), it'll take some kicking and screaming for them to even accept an Underground Station.
"Hello, this is Captain Grrrr-Uhnnnrhh, MP for Chelsea. If you dig a tube tunnel under my garden I will come round and hurhhgh hrrrr ggrrrghghnnnekhhh..."
They still don’t want Transport infrastructure- there’ve been court battles over them getting a Crossrail2 station
It's an old issue too - look at a map of London's former tram system and you will find a gaping hole where the Royal Borough refused to allow access to their territory
Presumably they don't want Chelsea to be somewhere from which 'new money' merchant bankers can travel easily to the City and Canary Wharf?
Chelsea resident of three decades here. Yes, you are right, residents are resistant to change. Personally I believe that a stop half way down the Kings Road makes a lot of sense, it's noticeable mostly by its absence.
The residents are against it because of the soulless retail spaces bolted onto it in the proposals. The same is the case for the proposed redevelopment of the the Marks and Spencer site. If you look at Kings Mall across the road, it's been a retail failure for as long as I can remember: the argument is that mall style retail spaces don't work on the KR and thus become run down & neglected.
I went to school in Chelsea and worked in the heart of Chelsea in the 80s and 90s for 13 years and the lack of a tube station meant a rather long walk every day down Pelham Street and Sydney Street from South Kensington tube in the very North of Chelsea or along Kings Road from Sloane Square on the extreme east of Chelsea. BTW Knighstbridge station is also officially in Chelsea but again on the very edge. A station somewhere around Beaufort Street would have been ideal.
I think an extra branch of the Viking line from Victoria to Richmond via Putney intersecting with the Wimbledon branch of the District line there would be very useful.
0:58 when you are running late you decide to leg it
As I understand it the plan for Crossrail 2 is for it to go through Chelsea but how it'll avoid all the "iceberg" houses I have no idea.
Very good, as always. Look forward to your video's
Sir, once again you have outdone yourself!
Great video as always!
I like the idea as sometimes the district is a bit delayed but that's also a issue with the idea, when it's delayed you can have all four platforms at Wimbledon, already full, they would probably of best running it underground, basically extending there tunnel to Wimbledon under all the district line stations, that would of meant making a lift to it, so it would of probably not got a go ahead.
The District wanted to go to Sutton, but the LSWR (Southern) were not happy, The C&SLR Wanted to Go to Sutton Too. With a bit of moving about in the end , the Wimbledon-Sutton Loop got built and the Northern Got Morden, and the District got running rights to Wimbledon. Personally I think Wimbledon needs better links to West London, so running the District alternate trains off at Parsons Greenish and off onto the WLL , reinstating the mainline Willesden Junction line and up to Watford. I think this would work.
If this version of the Victoria Line was built, It would have been particularly useful for Matchday's.
5:20 Is that the Supperclub tube train restaurant at the Walthamstow Pumphouse Museum? Also, fascinating to see Angel Road proposed as a terminus. Great video as always. Thanks Jago.
Hi Jago. I really liked the thumbnail for this video despite it being a headstone.
Im still here and still enjoying your content very much.
Thanks' Jago Looking forward to the next, Keep safe and well.
Somehow I had completely missed that Sloane Square had had it's green tiles replaced by white ones. Even more weird is I was actually a commuter on that route when it happened. I must have been asleep. Such a shame to lose the character of the green ones, even if they were only put up in the 80s. They were much more interesting than those white ones.
Streets of London! Do one on the Goldsmith’s Hall! (London Assay Office) that would be a treat! 😀
Thanks!
At 2:01 there is an "Oops !" (a distorting sound), otherwise 👍❗
All of which gave rise to the famous Elvis Costello track "(I couldn't go to) Chelsea (even if I wanted to)".
A Chelsea station would be a godsend for those of us who live in Chelsea and actually rely on public transport but, alas, it will never happen as the history of the last 150 years and nimbyish opposition have demonstrated
Are the drawings here deliberately using the visual format of Mini Metro? I like it!
If adding a station at Chelsea is a funding issue, just tell Roman Abramovich that there is a stunning Greek footballer available called Stationus Platformiakis, and the money will be there instantly!
2:29 a palm tree in London?!
Has Jago done an episode on Southfield's Station? The architecture is quite bizarre looking to my eye, a pyramid with chimneys. Would love to know more. 8:02
One on Wimbledon Park which is similar, but Southfields is nicer. Wimbledon had parts in a not dissimilar style
@@highpath4776 Wimbledon Park and Southfields were identical originally. The platform buildings are more or less the same, but the street level building at Southfields has been extended since LU took them over from BR in the 1990s.
Yeah i read all about that Chelsea hackney line I for one wouldn't mind if you covered it
You hit the mark with "does Chelsea want a station." Big No to that one. FT, 2016:
“If a Crossrail station is built here, it will destroy Chelsea as we know it. We are not opposed to Crossrail 2, we just *don’t want a station in Chelsea* said Felicity Kendal, the actor, and one of the celebrity backers of a campaign against the station.
I mean, the City of London was a lovely sleepy town not far from Stepney, then WHAM! Liverpool St, Canon St, Blackfriars, Fenchurch St and a gazillion tube stops and looked what happened?
They didn’t say they didn’t want one in the area at all, they just wanted it to be elsewhere like near Battersea Bridge or Chelsea Embankment instead.
The City Of London wanted and freely approved those hundreds of tube stations and lines though, Chelsea just wants one proper one.
Will there ever be a Chelsea tube station?
While not technically a "tube" station, as you say Crossrail 2 proposals have included King's Road Chelsea. Well-healed locals have been against it: Felicity Kendal lives in Carlisle Square just down the road and is none too keen having all those extra proles about.
I've lived in and around Chelsea for 30 years, and it's always been a bit of a desert for tube stops. For commuting, I switched to the riverbus some years ago to save the trek up to Sloane Square.
She's moved up in the world from Surbiton then!
That looks like a park worth saving.
Thanks for the maps.
0:53 Seeing as the shot was at Wimbledon I was hoping for "Underground and Overground"
Wombling free...
Superb
Not related to this video but wanted to point out LTM have got real heavy duty cast aluminium tube sliding door treadplates back in stock £95, I don't work for them
my,m,my best mate lived in a flat of dove house green, I used to live in Wimbledon and c]go to school in Battersea. how useful this would have been!
All the way to Croydon by Tube? That sounds like it would rival the eastern extremities of the Central line for out-of-townage.
Like this very much.
Great video😊
How about a vid covering the stations twinned with European stations abroad.
I recall Victoria was twinned with Harburg. There was a roundel on the underground commemorating this.
Like the Tube, Elvis Costello also said "I don't want to go to Chelsea"
Will Crossrail 2 ever get built? Remember all the problems with Crossrail! (And still not completely working as designed.)
I would like to look into this. I think it’s an interesting subject that of course is far from resolved.