History of Half Orcs in Fantasy
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- čas přidán 10. 09. 2024
- In this video I talk about the history of half orcs for the years, and I cover all of their major developments throughout fantasy. I talk about dungeons and Dragons, Lord of the rings, critical role, World of Warcraft, and every other major fantasy that includes half orcs. So rousingly this is not just a tirade about how terrible they are. I also have a special announcement at the end for my fans.
#orc #dnd
Links:
History of Orcs in Fantasy: • History of Orcs In Fan...
History of Kobolds in Fantasy: • History of Kobolds in ...
How to World Build with Orcs: • How to World Build wit...
Music:
Orc Music by my friend Neil
Castle crasher Soundtrack: • Mudholes - Castle Cras...
A KÁOSZ SZAVA: Skandar Graun, a half-blood from a human father and an orc mother, warrior-priest of the god of Chaos, vows to exterminate all humans from the world, especially Peltár, the murderer of his parents. But over time, Peltár became a powerful wizard, while Skandar Graun remained a dirty monster. The half-orc fervently prays and makes sacrifices to ask for his god's help in his revenge, but Yvorl, the god of Chaos, will only help if he first obtains the Word of Chaos, the much-researched magic potion that disappeared in ancient times. An original style, humorous, epoch-making series in which the protagonist even develops his character pretty well. He vows to exterminate all humans from the world, especially Peltár, the murderer of his parents. Skandar Graun sets out with his motley crew to complete the task and exact his revenge, but he soon discovers that the road to his goal is bumpier than he imagined.
Skandar Graun is an interesting figure. As a half-orc, he hates everyone who isn't his kind OFF, not a little sneaky and evil. He says, but the story shows his normal self in several places. He likes to drink, steal, swear and is a bloody adventurer. We get several references to this, which are explained in more detail in later anthologies. He is joined by a gang of twelve angry humans and other species, with whom exciting and sometimes humorous adventures take place. The characters were a bit too many for me, I don't know if any of them will return in the sequel, but I thought a few were quite unnecessary. Just as a few adventures could have been left out, because although they are fun, they are a bit much. The book's humor is very specific, sometimes the jokes are a little lame, in others they are quite disgusting. Skandar Graun's basic nature and smell contribute to this.
The action scenes are quite bloody, with body parts flying everywhere. We also get a few monsters that may be familiar from several fantasy films.
The story is a rather simple light fantasy novel, but the twist and turns make up for it.(is what some people said) Nothing serious, nothing burdensome, Druid, magician, illusionist, fairy, orc, human, dwarf... The parade of races is endless.This is a terribly easy read, with an incredibly simple thread, not too complicated at all, easy to digest and the story itself is easy to read
Our main character does not count on friends or women, he still goes and falls in love and recruits a team. A little unfortunate, a little cruel. Sometimes funny, sometimes pitiable, but in his imperfection he is a perfectly written character.
not much is said about the book outside of hungary but not surpised. i will say this now i DID not read the book since there are many parts and well..id get bored too fast and give up so what i did do is do some digging and read some hungarian reviews. im fluent in hungarian so i read through the translations and it all fits well together to what they have said.
Thank you so much for this. This is more information than I can find anywhere else online about him. I'm excited to see that a lot of what I was gathering and inferring was true about him. They seem like fun non-complicated stories and I wonder if they would be a hit in the West right now? I would bet this story would have crushed it if it came out in the '90s and 2000s. The style of humor sounds very early South Park
In regards to half-races, I like how in Pathfibder 2e Half-Orcs/Half-Elves aren't their own races, but instead they are a "mixed-heritage", as in you choose one race to be the "base" and add Half-Orc or -Elf to the mix.
If I were to make a system, I'd probably make it so that you can choose which two races to combine. Perhaps the "base" race is based on the mother (like in your system) or the player chooses.
The weird thing about "half" races that no one ever seems to suggest, is that once you establish the races are biologically compatible there is no reason there wouldn't be a massive spectrum of half-tint mixes.
Why aren't there people who are 1/8 orc on their materal great-gradfather type and a 1/4 elf on their paternal grandmother side of the family. And this guy looks something like he's part dwarf, but he's actually 1/4 halfling and 1/4 orc, and I'm 1/16th fire-giant although half of my family is mostly tiefling. You know what I mean? It would be "shades" of races everywhere, rather than pure cut and "half" versions.
I completely agree. There is an old crusader Kings mod called Lord of kings that had some really indepth race mixing. Like a half fairy quarter goblin quarter dark elf was one of the starting characters. The mechanics were super indepth and neat but alas the mod is no longer being worked on
Unless half breeds are sterile. Horses and mules breed to make donkeys, but all donkeys are sterile.
For me, I came to the conclusion that Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are either mules, sterlie hybrids, or that genetics wise half elves and half orcs pass on what they are by making their kids half - elves or orcs, with the implication that Half Elves and Orcs have some variety but also have some kind of commanality in terms of looks. So like a half-elf of teifling descdant would be a half elf, but say have red or pink skin and a half - elf of halfling descent would be shorter than expected of half elfs, but still much taller than halfling.
Either those or we need that supplement that Ginny Di mention in one of her videos about making a multi racial/species characters.
On a separate note this is why I like the lineages from Van Rechitant's, in 5e. As it makes it where being a dhampir, reborn or hexblood, your race it more or less overwrites you're original race. So you'd still look human, teifling, half orc, whatever, but all your features and skills/abilities look the same.
I think half- orc should just be a smaller, more intelligent breed of orc. Half-orcs are huskies; orcs are wolves.
I can get behind this. However, what happens if a Goliath (Giant) breeds with an Orc? or an Elf and an Orc? These are the questions that Keep me up at night.
They cant interbreed. Easy solution
@@kid9893See, that’s the kind of thing I wrote into my book. I have a half-elf/half-goblin, her sister a half-Orc/half-goblin. It was so fascinating to me I had to mess with it in narrative form
@danielbuday1895 I agree with your sentiment about intelligence and I don’t wanna come across as hostile but I gotta call you out on the example you gave lol, in my opinion animals that can survive in the wild without the help of humans are markedly smarter than their domestic counterparts, I guess it just depends on what metric your using to determine how “smart” they are
There's a prominent Half-Orc woman in the Sellswords trilogy by RA Salvatore. Her name is Arrayan Faylin and hails from a Half-Orc village called Palishchuk. The book in which she features is called Promise of the Witch King.
Thats super cool! I didnt come across her during research but I will check her out now. Thank you my friend.
In The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, the arena champion is titled The Gray Prince, whose mother was an orc and whose father was a human vampire. The game lore says he is half orc, despite mechanically not being different. TES seems to give half races primarily the traits of one parent though
Yes he is just an Orc. I think the book is called racial phylogeny which explains how it is just based on your mother.
There are no true “half-“races in The Elder Scrolls, as the offspring of all interracial relationships merely come out the race of the mother in that Universe. Which is an interesting twist!
Half-Orcs are like a blank canvas for amazing characters to create.
One could say that they could be the next generation of Warriors!
They can be. I think the fact that they are a blank Canvas is why they are not used. They dont have any unique features others can point to as iconic.
Or, if you’re me, the main character of a fantasy novel 😊
I can dig it. I always want more half orc fiction
@@kid9893 I can’t send a link on YT comments. Are you on twittwr?
I plan on writing a book about a mage and his Half-orc bodyguard/lover.
The Half-orc is from further north where half-orcs are more common.
But the story takes place in a kingdom where orcs are considered big, violent savages.
That could work as a story. Falling in love with your bodyguard happens a lot in media since you spend so much time together
Man, I never knew Half-orcs had such a tipsy-turvy history.
Thanks for sharing.
Me either man. When I found out I had to make a video and share.
This was the first time I heard the take about "unfortunate encounters" be about accidentally sleeping with an "ugly" woman after a night out. Honestly, that take makes a lot a sense considering how playful and mischievous those early edition books seemed to me.
I'm subscribing to this channel and hope to see you grow.
Edit: Based on your preference on having being a half-orc an option on top of your race, what is your opinion on Pathfinder 2e having "half-orc heritage", renamed in the Remaster as Dromaar heritage, instead of being an ancestry option on its own?
I really appreciate the subscription my friend. I think the mechanics behind it are great. They have a good idea since that allows anyone to mix. I just wonder if someone can play an orc half orc, purely for mechanical reasons of course. I honestly hate the renaming thing they are doing. I understand why they are doing it but they are going way overboard in a way that feels less like protecting themselves and being able to copyright it themselves. Games workshop has done this with Orks, arguing adding the K makes them a distinct race.
@@kid9893 from my understanding, choosing the half-orc heritage as an orc gives you the option to take half-orc and human feats whenever you gain an ancestry feat. Meanwhile, choosing the Dromaar heritage as an orc only gives you the option to take Dromaar feats whenever you gain an ancestry feat which aren't a lot. So, you actually get less options when going with the Remastered version. This was probably done to remove the "human" in half-orc since the original was made as a heritage for human characters first unless the GM decided to allow non-humans to take it.
Thanks kind of lame. They already seemed to have a good system before the remaster, why change it? The entire Remaster confuses and scares me TBH. Maybe i should do a deep dive and see all the changes for a video?
@@kid9893 That would be a cool video idea. I know I'm going to into it.
Funny enough, I'm actually writing two stories that feature half orcs or orc derived hybrids as prominant characters. Part of the fun has been ironing out the history of the settings and how the mechanics of the world allows such crosses to exist.
That does sound like it would be a very fun task. I just think D&D went overboard with mechanics tied to all these combos.
Excellent video. I'm especially glad you took a stab at untangling the mess of Tolkien's orc/Uruk-hai that always left me confused as a movie watcher. In Fellowship (movie version), someone mentions Saruman crossbreeding orcs and goblins to create an army that can move in sunlight. To me that always implied they were naturally different, so Moria was full of goblins not orcs. The natural step after that would leave Uruk-hai to be the human/orc crossbreeds.
Yes, it's very strange that two races who cannot look at the Sun equal a race that can. I think the film's wisely avoided this entire debacle. I also was always confused in the films and I'm really glad that I did this video so I could try to figure out this mess.
@@kid9893 I never thought about the fact that neither race can tolerate the sun, so now it suddenly makes less sense. The scene in The Two Towers where the party of "orcs" and Uruk-hai meet up in broad daylight and argue over the hobbits was always strange.
Yeah because they did it in the sunlight. Which is very strange considering how they feel when gandalf flash bangs them.
@@kid9893 If memory serves, the line from the movie mentioned orcs and goblin-men. Given goblin = orc in Tolkien's work, goblin-men could be another of saying Orc-Men implying the Uruk-hai could have been a backcross between an orc and half orc.
That is a great point! Thank you.
The Pathfinder 2nd edition Remaster transforms the half elf and half orc into a versatile heritage which can be applied to any ancestry(race). Which I think fits better with such characters anyway.
I agree completely. Although another commentor said they made it all weird in their remaster so maybe they ruined it?
@@kid9893 the reason is that it’s not as fleshed out as before so it feels like your adding on an additional ancestry and accessing its feats rather that having their own unique set. But that to me should be what you get being a child of two worlds.
Don’t remove half orcs because of controversy: remove them because half races shouldn’t be handled as full separate races. There shouldn’t be half-orc or half-elf statblocks, there should be rules on how to take partial mechanics from 2 separate races and make a half blood. That way you can truly get creative, with DMs & Players alike being able to mix & match as their storied imagination allows, and the need be no word in world explanation for why only elves & orcs are fertile with humans but not with each other
I totally agree with your thoughts on half races. I never saw half elf as something worthy of being a unique thing because it didn't prove it was unique enough. Instead it should have just been "oh my mom is a elf and my dad is a human" and choose one of the races to use the rules for which basically is the idea you suggested and play around with flavor stuff. Like having a orc dwarf maybe be shorter or wider than average orcs. The half concept is way too human focused and feels like "we don't want you to play that but everyone wants it so here is a compromise". People want to play orcs, especially after warcraft, so either make them playable or not. None of this "real orcs are blood thirsty monsters but luckily half orcs can be good" because we don't say the thieves and bandit humans we fight are a different race for mechanical reasons so do the same if you want playable orcs. That yeah some orcs do evil things and you will be fighting them but that doesn't stop you from playing as one. Just imagine if we made all the evil human wizards that are the end boss for storylines a separate thing so it is justified why those ones are evil and okay to kill unlike the players' wizards who are good.
I agree completely. I think one of the things holding this back is the fact that designers dont seem to know which type of Orc they want in their setting.
@kid9893 is brave like ODD Wizard for making scholarly work about taboo. May the algorithm spread this VOD to all seekers of knowledge and truth.
Haha thank you my friend. Wait until I get brave enough to tackle religion or slavery in this series
This guy replies to almost every comment. Now that's dedication right there. Respect.
Thanks man. I try to read every comment and see the interesting stuff people are saying
nah i got here first, GET PRANKED
There's one half-orc character who's actually kinda interesting and I think you even used one of the panels from the comic he appears in your video: Greldinard from the 90s french fantasy comic Blackmoon Chronicles. He get's his backstory in the Blackmoon Arcana side series where it's revealed that he was born as human but taken in by an orc witch as a baby after elves killed his parents who then proceeded to magically fuse him with the dead body of her own orc baby making him a half-orc. It's an interesting take for sure.
And Pathfinder 2nd edition, even before the remaster, actually does half races pretty well by making them more of a bonus element to the character as opposed to an actual race.
In case you haven't checked out PF2E: the player race is basicly split into Ancestry, the classic race with ability score bonuses and traits, and heritage, more akin to a culture wich gives additional benefits and skills. The Remaster makes half-orcs and half-elves versatile heritages accessible to all ancestries but even before that there was a little blurp on their pages sidebar wich suggested that onje could make a gnomish half-elf or a dwarven half-orc.
When I first read the DnD5e players handbook I also disliked that Tieflings, Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are seperate races because it always assumed a human as the baseline but what if someone wan'ts to play a Dwarven Tiefling?
That is an absolutely awesome backstory. I will definitely have to check him out.
I have heard that Pathfinders second edition has done some really cool things with them and I'm glad that they have moved in a direction similar to my own home game.
It absolutely drives me up the wall how it's taking 50 odd years for people to realize they might want to be a dwarven tiefling. Imagine how powerful his head butts would be lol
Have not seen many Orc or Half-Orcs in my D&D games in 5th addtion. Different from the 3rd edition games I played, that had plenty of orca as antags or people playing half orcs. When it comes to the half human half something else, I can agree with what you said.
Yeah i think thats because 3rd edition Orcs were mechanically much worse than Half-Orcs whereas now they are more better.
Orcs were Created by Morgoth, Sauron just ccontined to breed them after Morgoth was finally Defeated
Yes but in his letters Tolkien talked about several other origins that he considered possibly canon too.
15:55 HOLY MOLY I MADE THAT MEME! FOR REAL I ACTUALLY MADE THAT MEME!
Really? That is super cool! I loved it when I saw it and I wanted to show more people. Now a few thousand have seen your meme my friend.
Your suggestions line up almost exactly with versatile heritages in Pathfinder 2e, down to the point where post remaster any ancestry can be half orc
That is super cool actually! I am glad my ideas are good enough that professional game designers are also coming up with them on their own.
Excellent video sir! Love the book references in this one
I am glad you enjoyed it my friend!
Handled very well. Bravo and thanks for sharing.
Thank you my friend. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Great video, even as a regular 5e player it was still plenty informative.
I'm glad it was helpful to you my friend!!
I think the mixed races of fantasy are important to keep. They reflect real world border cultures, races and ethnicity in exaggerated form.
Of course there are ignorant ways to showcase this, but there are clever ways too.
But mainly, I think, in a world populated by various humanoid types, intermixing would be inevitable, and across the spectrums. I personally have a half orc descended from a grand father who was himself half orc half Goliath, because to me, there would be a lot of cultural and geographical exchanges between those parties.
I just wish there was a better mechanical method of reflecting these potential realities. Because there’s a lot of story in these spaces
I think from a story telling perspective you are correct. Thats why in my setting the races can intermix without restrictions. However I think adding mechanics to them and making them a separate race actually removes the nuance since many people will be looking for purely mechanical benefits.
@@kid9893 that’s probably true. I’m not much of a minmaxer, I just want to concretize the concept. More like a pool of options than a distinct race. But yeah. I’m not looking for a mechanical advantage so much.
In my own worlds there are no restrictions either. Custom lineage is sometimes the path for that, sometimes not
7:50 yikes, I must have "blocked" that ...
Lol, its okay my friend.
In Warhammer Fantasy Battles 3e Armies pages 152-153 has the Half-Orc Mercenary Contingent List, plus, they are also included in the Orcs & Goblins Army List proper…w/ a notification that they are referred to as Scabbies by Orcs & Goblins for not being proper “Goblins”. They are also listed in the Warhammer Fantasy Battles 3e core book on page 121. Half-Orcs were first introduced in Warhammer Fantasy Battles 2e on page 17 of the “Warhammer” Book 3 - Battle Bestiary. They are also listed on page 225 of the 1e Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay as Orc Half-Castes, they are of Neutral or Evil in alignment.
Ive been playing a half orc wizard named Groggy in DnD
He's more or less running away from his racial identity issues of being a crossbreed by studying magic
I can dig it. Sounds like a fun backstory to play.
The Grey Bastards series is based around a half orc society.
Is it now? I have not heard of it beforehand I will have to check it out
An excellent and thorough exploration into this topic. Great job. I'm subscribing now.
Thank you my friend, I hope I can continue to put out content that you will enjoy.
you got my interest with this topic, i like your narration and you got a sub! i hope your channel grows
Technically there is one is the Elder Scrolls though I dont know how true it is but in oblivion there is a orc gladiator named Agronak gro-Malog who claims his mother is was an Orc while his father is was an Imperial Noble check the wiki on him
In the D&D boxed set (the one NOT authored by Gygax) they had half-elves, but they were considered either normal humans or normal elves with only cosmetic links to their mixed heritage. But whatever, I think of the fantasy genre as just that: fantasy. The DM/GM can do whatever they want with their game as long as the players are cool with it. It doesn't matter because it's just fantasy. People do things and act in a certain way that they would never do in real life, and really what's the harm. I also feel that a lot of people use certain words too often either because they don't know the meaning of the word or that they've changed the definition simply to try to win an argument without going through the labor of actually constructing an argument with counter-points. It's just a game, so people can do whatever floats their boat. The "rules" are just a guideline anyway. The important objective is to just have fun.
I love playing a half-orc. I especially like to undermind any stereotypes and go with wizard or cleric. My dm has a 1/8 or 12.5% house rule for half races. The parent half race is 50%, their kid would be 25%, but their grandchild would be 12.5% making them mostly human with human traits, but still a half race. The opposite is true too. If a half-orc has a child with a full orc, the child would be 75% orc but still a half orc and the grandchild. 87.5% orc but still half-orc. 3 generations removed would make that character fully one or the other. So interestingly a barbarian tribe of humans meets a barbarian tribe of Orcs, eventually you would have one big tribe of half orcs with different degrees of half-orc. My dm has also made the probability of a child from two different half races to be very low mainly to avoid min/maxing and canonically most races dislike eachother and humans are the most populus and the in-between. Some people may dislike it but making humans the default other half makes everything easier and simple.
OK, who knew half orcs were such a mixed bag of Sh*t! I always thought it was simply an orc mated with another race. As Tolkien fan, I'm somewhat embarrassed I didn't know Tolkien switched his description of a half orc so many times. Way more info than I thought there was. Where do I learn Hungarian?
I know! And the best way to learn Hungarian is get a hot Hungarian wife and have her teach it to you.
Check for an author named David Daglish. He wrote a series of 8 books with a pair of Half Orc brothers as the leads.
Nice to see more Black D&D CZcamsrs :)
19:07
Hmmm. While I understand your viewpoints on the Various races from a World Building mindset.
From a DM and Gamer Mind, I don’t see having these characters as a Problem for the World/Campaign.
Mostly, Because they Are Optional! OPTIONAL. As DM, you can decide what is or Isn’t part of the Work! This is why Sessions Zeroes are set and even Pre-Session Zeroes!
“I would tell my players so of the ideas and offer a summary about the campaign. And then I would Ask my players what would they Like, and then build the campaign around their characters.”
But yeah, the point is, the majority of these races are Sold in books because it is material that the DM can use to set up the adventure. And how that material is used is up to the DM and the players to figure out.
Yeah I personally think we the designers should put in the effort to make them work though. Its in the core book and we paid for it right?
I've always enjoyed playing a half orc both narratively and mechanically. I'm removing them from my homebrew setting because I'm removing orcs entirely. They are being replaced and altered slightly like in Ravenloft by the Caliban. My games are primarily humanity focus in a folk horror setting so this transition is natural.
That is super cool, I always love to hear when people have special settings. If you want to keep them around mechanically you might make the mechanics for them classify under a human type. Like a group of powerful warriors who can resist death better than others. I cover things like that in my how to world build with orcs video from a year ago if you want more details.
@@kid9893 watched your orc video as well a few weeks back very well done. I appreciate the work you're doing on the channel.
Half orcs get mentioned in warhammer fantasy battle 3rd edition (Old hammer), they become brighter and faster moving at the expense of physical toughness. Other options for 'half' races, Craster's off spring (GOT)? or imagine if john snow was half orc instead of half targarian... Or like twins, the trait may not follow every generation. Or maybe the ferral kid in mad max. Any half orcs (or other halfs) could be used as spies against gobliniods etc or reverse. Like (Tolkiens) half elves, they should be few and far between and be more than just the beastman stereo-type.
I want more. And I know I shouldn’t. - anakin
Those Kids were armed - Anakin Probably
My universe, "The Ten Thousand Islands - a world of Vikings and Greeks" , sees the Greeks overrun and enslaved by The Horde of Evil until the Norsemen were sent by their gods to turn the tide. There are a significant number of half-orcs as a consequence of the generation of occupation before the War of Liberation.
Elves and dwarves are not much present in The Ten Thousand Islands, their civilizations are remote and mysterious, consequently Elves and Dwarves are not allowed as starting PC's.
Disappointly, most of my players are reluctant to run Half-Orcs or Half-Ogres.
My campaign is 1E/2E mostly, over the years I have run a few groups/sessions with The Fantasy Trip or full out GURPS.
That sounds like a super cool setting, I wonder why so many people don't want to play half orcs? Maybe you made the lore for the other guys way too cool lol
Also noting I haven't been able to find a group willing to play an Evil party in over a decade.
"To all things there is a season"
Discworld features an Orc in the book "Unseen Academicals" as main protagonist, but not an half-orc, so you didn't exactly miss that. In case of recent novels, I would suggest Viv in "Legends & Latte".
Loved the idea of a smart, charismatic half-Orc so much I made one the protagonist of my debut fantasy novel The Black Crown.
Great video. Take my sub
On warcraft technically retcon but was more they added more story to the orcs and decided they wanted to keep up that the first game was the first meeting so when they made the dranei that lives alongside the orcs it made sense. Warcraft stopped caring about mixed race by the time of world of Warcraft because they only did mixed characters to make them stand out. So rexar is half orc half ogre so he is more different than the other orcs in the campaign. But I think they dropped it because it could lead to headaches and having my thought focused on a subject they don't care about. They don't care if goblins came from trolls making babies with gnomes or not. They just wanted to have little green guys with pointy ears. They didn't want to figure out a breeding chart for what happens with everyone. That is why there is only one dranei mixed orc. The rest is orc and ogre which was a evolutionary ancestor, and humans with blood elves where they look the same except glowing eyes, pointy ears, big eyebrows, and lanky body. They didn't want to figure out what happens if a dwarf slept with a tauren so they never bring it up and the only really show relationships between races that already are similar. So goblins + gnomes and blood elf + humans
I think that's for the best to be honest. Having all of these different combinations gets weird after a while. Especially if you consider second generation, what does a half orc have dwarf who has a kid with a half human half tauren look like? Lol
Medan isn't canon anymore, which most likely due to negative fan reception + Medan been a Mary sue.
The best example of Medan not been canon is the events in Return to Karazhan during the Legion expansion where, Khadgar takes Atiesh from Medivh corpse. (Confirming the Last Guardian novel as been canon).
Note: I seem to recall Medan been mention in Warcraft Chronicle, do haven't read them since they released.
Paizo is still using Half-Orc's in there works.
Yeah when I was trying to read up on him it really seemed like he was hyper important for 30 seconds and then disappear from everything lol.
They are still using them but paizo has done some strange things to them from what I have heard
@@kid9893 They change their name to avoid WotC sending the Pinkertons
So you take the elder scrolls path. Where the offspring of a mix couple that look like the mother.
Yes, I find that to be the most satisfying result in my own setting I have about 20 playable races which would mean I would need a minimum of 400 hybrid races. And that's assuming that only two pure parents had a kid. The moment to mixed people had a child it would get so incredibly complicated so quickly. I also don't want to restrict people from having relationships because I think that makes the settings more complicated and interesting
History of robots in sci if/fantasy?
You missed fighter as a primary class for half orcs in (1e) AD&D.
I find that the mechanistic reductionist view lends itself to the biological understanding of "race". If you have a spiritual genesis you can come at the understanding differently. You might look at the "tripartite understanding of race" from our own history. See, Indo-European (I'm trying to avoid someone crying mid-century German here) people held that man is not a horse or a dog where blood is the only factor in "race". More or less, one can be born to a Brahman, but without transcending he will not become a Brahman.
Why people want to bring their modern understanding into a fantastic environment is beyond me.
Thanks for the video.
I did not see them as fighters in the pre first edition dungeons & dragons stuff. They were definitely supposed to be rogues and the fighter stuff got added in later on. I think fighters works really well for them.
@@kid9893 yeah, I meant to indicate the 1e PHB & UA. I believe they were unlimited in level for thief and assassin. As far as fighter/thief multi class... look out. It was a very minor omission. Idk about half orcs in pre-1e stuff. They weren't in any official products as pc classes. I had read an interview that Gary argued against them in AD&D because it brought up the subject of rape, but I can't source this atm. Fun discussion though, thanks again for the video.
i never heard about the druken night stand origin for half orcs, this is really intersting, maybe the blame for the fixation on sexual violence it's the 90s edgyness and the mechanichal transposition between the critic of the the "rapist black men" myth that the kkk spread with the birth of a nation movie, and the for some reason Orcs being compared to black people by racists instead of the original mongol steriotype penned by the anti asian racism.
Orcs have a more complex lore outside of games than in the game itself.
I never considered the '90s edginess to be a factor but that completely makes sense. The old books were written so much more from a " guy at the pub explaining stuff" perspective and people take it super seriously. I also find it frustrating that so many people want to make orcs black people, if you really want to associate them with a human people group the Mongolians / the Turkish are your best bet. They are specifically referenced by Tolkien and fit the idea of a raiding culture way more.
I was really surprised when folks came out about orcs being subhuman and representing any native, tribal, or aboriginal stock.
I always felt they represented the thuggish brutes that supported dictators or extremist factions.
I've always portrayed my NPC orcs and half-orcs as ignorant hillbilly types that listen to power over over reason rather than tribal savages. Living in the southern US at one point in my life steered me this way. But bigots, racists, and zealots of all types have made perfect archetypes for low-brow savages that are willing to attack anyone not like them.
I think it's interesting that you have moved them from one stereotype to another. I agree that they are usually thugs and bullies. It makes them so much easier to despise and fight.
@@kid9893 spent a few years growing up in Texas prior to being introduced to D&D. I was bullied by jocks and hicks because I was small for my age and I liked different things. The pattern of abuse really never stopped once I moved away. So there's a foundation for my orc bias of a culture where the strong rule the weak.
Hey
Wanted to say I do appreciate this video as a person who is of the genetic makeup that people talk about when it comes to orca and half or a in fantasy. This was a nice bit of history and the presentation was good.
I will say, though, that the slight aside about 'keeping politics out of fantasy' was a little off putting, especially since it was followed up by a legitimately interesting example of how a half orc could exist that delved into unfortunate stereotyping. It is that reason nobody wants to touch half orcs, since even if it was out of being uninformed it's still hella distracting.
Im.not Goin fto talk your ear off about it, but to explain: Speaking as someone with indigenous and black American heritage (and a woman, yay), the idea of Thanksgiving happy ending or having a savage mate does lean into the 'white savior' side of things. It's sweet, but a little one sided and assumes the origin is more wholesome than the historical reality.
All told, this is said after watching the whole video and getting the full context. You have good takes all around and clearly aren't a bad person in fact, I'd love to hear more about Enoss and everything else you do, since you don't even tend to duck witbt he half orc concept. I'd like to see your channel grow, too, since you know your stuff.
Sorry to be a downer.
🤓
There is a half-orc in Oblivion in the arena.
Yes he is there but he really is just an orc. In elder scrolls lore there are no mixed races since you are just the rave of your mother. It's kind of weird because they break that rule a lot though.
GREAT VIDEO!
Thank you so much my friend. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Its crazy that people think half orcs are racist and its controversial
Rexxar is probably the most famous Warcraft half orc, but he was half ogre.
And yeah, I could see thw racism. I had a friend that went.... Strange.
Is he? I know that he was not in the Warcraft movie so I assumed he was more of a world of Warcraft thing.
It's always unfortunate when politics ruin friendships. I'm sorry to hear that my friend.
@@kid9893 In WC3's Frozen Throne expansion, they didn't include a normal Orc campaign. It was an RPG starting Rexxar, along with Jaina Proudmore, the pandarian brewmaster that the old WC3 website claimed was the writer (originally it was a different character who was a tauran) among a few others.
Said RPG campaign had Rexxar help establish the Horde capital city and later fight Jaina's father, Admiral Proudmore.
If I recall, they later retconed part of Rexxar's story. I believe he originally was half orc half human and later half orc half ogre.
Bonus campaigns were kind of a thing Bliz did back then. There was a bonus/demo prequel campaign for WC3 that actually had voice acting in the demo version and StarCraft had a bonus campaign and a nearly forgotten demo campaign, only one coming on the discs. Unfortunately both the SC campaigns had no voice actor support.
I love 1e/2e half-orcs, and absolutely hate what was done to them from 3e onwards. The 1e/2e half-orc was an ugly anti-hero probably born of rape, who looked human enough to pass for human in most human communities. They were the only race aside from human with unlimited advancement in the Assassin class, and the only race thar could multiclass as Assassins. The 3e half-orc is essentially just a 2e half-ogre; a tall, stupid brute who sucks at everything except fighting, because 3e apparently needed a "Barbarian" race. Go ahead and read the description of the typical half-orc in the 1e DMG and contrast it with the description of half-orcs in the 3e PHB. These are not the same character. At all.
I also dislike the equation of orcs and orcish culture to the Barbarian class, as this not only lends fuel to those who wish to interpret all humanoids races as stand-ins for people of color, it's also antithetical to orcs as both Tolkien and Gygax understood them. Orcs in Middle-Earth were Tolkien's critique of industrial warfare, who could make clever things, like traps and siege engines, but not beautiful things. They loved technology, and they were often dull and miserable beings, but they weren't stupid. Gygax's are a cruel and hateful culture of fascistic slavers and expansionists, not a barbarian tribe. In fact, they were lawfully aligned, and the half-orc race was actually excluded from the Barbarian class in the first edition of Unearthed Arcana.
Both of these visions make sense if you view orcs in a mythological context and not an anthropological one. In other words, they do not represent "the other" (as POC already exist in D&D) but the very worst aspects of human nature. Orcs are the shadow archetype to humanity itself.
Uruk is also just the name for orc in the black speech.
This is true and adds more complicated issues with the Uruk-Hai. Are they half orcs or something else
@@kid9893 also Elder Scrolls orcs have more in common with the depiction of half orcs in D&D than orcs.
Yes but they elder scrolls orcs pull most from Warcraft orcs. I talk about that in my history of orcs video.
@@kid9893 Do u mean the other way around? I assume the lore for eso orcs came before world of watcraft.
No actually, Elder Scrolls orcs existed before but were just monsters in Arena and Daggerfall. Morrowind changed them into playable in 2002 and by that point the Warcraft RTS was 8 years old. I go over this here if you want more information my friend.
czcams.com/video/b7vzRJVJXI4/video.htmlsi=rlzlRZkud_Yuwqje
Half Orc = One drunk a$$ night
That's my favorite half orc origin. No tragedy or dark angst, just a few beers 🍺
It doesn't hurt that orc women all look like She-Hulk.
Oh yeah. Very pretty Big Green ladies are popular.
I like the half-breed species, although I agree that they are routinely handled poorly and add little in most instances.
Based on the keeping politics separate. Politics are inherently divisive and most people come to fantasy specifically to get away from that sort of thing.
I think that they have a good concept behind them and if they got a little bit more love and effort put into them they would be fantastic.
I'm glad that you also appreciate keeping politics away from fantasy. It just gets so tiring that every hobby becomes a battleground.
@@kid9893 Indeed.
Speaking of, I held off last time I checked because there were so few videos before that I was unsure if you were going to continue doing these fantasy trope historical/development investigation videos. Now that it is clear that you are, and especially with keeping politics out of it, I have subscribed.
Yeah I had to take a small break around the holidays due to some family stuff, but I'm back now and I'm trying to make videos more frequent
Orcs in 1st edition were Lawful Evil. So Lawful Evil Clerics.
Half-orcs are: half orc and half...... nearly anything else, really. Half dragon, elf, dwarf, ogre, elemental, nephilim (celestial or fiendish), tengu, lizardfolk...
The list goes on and on.
yes and no. Mechanically they are just half humans. which is the issue i have with them. It gets strange when you have an extra skill point from human heritage by youre half Dwarf and half Orc.
@@kid9893 Orc/Dwarf with CON/STR flaws, high DEX/CHA. It doesn't matter what their ancestry is. Put the points where you want.
Read the Grey Bastards series its like sons of anarchy half orcs its really good
In my setting, half-orcs and half-elves are not the result of two individuals having children. They have emerged over several generations of interbreeding. Half-orcs are almong others descended from hobgoblins and humans. While the half-elves are usually found in cities in an empire where human and elven nobility intermarried frequently. In general the nobility tends to live longer whatever race they are because of the tendency of intermarriage.
However, both half-orcs and half-elves are human. Half-elves sleep, they aren't reincarnated, and they don't trance. Half-orcs live to be about the same age as humans.
When it comes to the source books, I see them as having human authors, and that they are full of stereotypes about the different peoples and the world.
Wooooahhhhhhhh
Yeah it's pretty interesting isn't it?
It sounds like the way you run mixed heritage characters is really close to the way WOTC is redesigning them, for much of the same reason (i.e., making humans the necessary default doesn't make sense).
It is similar to the redesign yes. However I believe the mechanics behind it are different as I have a system that allows the mixed heritage player to play into the mixed heritage more or less. For example a tiefling would start with fire resistance but can add wings and claws and a tail if they choose.
16:22 image? artist?
www.deviantart.com/hypertarget/art/orc-human-love-989424518
This is the source and artist. Or at least where I got it from.
Well cool Video..
But Back in a Day when i Used to Play Table Top..
Orcs and Goblins never were Playable Races and btw they reproduce in the Worst Way possible..
Maybe they Changed but Yu know The Anime Goblin Slayer ?!
so yeah that was how they Increase there Numbers..
By Taking womans from all other Races so i never actually felt anything other then Hate for those both Races from the Start..haha
Oh yeah back in the day they were like total monsters. I talk about that in my History of orcs in fantasy video. I have a soft spot for just terrible evil things we should just kill. My dad also says this is his preferred orc
Half Orcs are in Elder Scrolls.
Yes and no. A person with only one orc parent exists, half orcs as a separate entity don't exist. Also elder scrolls lore says you are the race of your mother, which means they are technically full orcs by this lore
@@kid9893 The Gray Prince from Oblivion
I have an oc, and i made a world around him. Orcs are a thing in that world. In that world orcs look more like half orcs mostly cus all races are genetically modified humans. Traditionally orcs in that world are under the broader race/tribe of Fey. The fey in their society are the ones that try to use science to analyze magic and find different applications for it. Orcs themselves cant use magic, they are actually resistant to it, so they have an advantage when researching especially when it comes to volatile magic. Outside of traditional jobs, they have a culture of being fishing folk and divers. Homes are usually decorated with bones of large sea beast n what not. They also have very good relations with seafolk and mermaids. Maybe a spat here and there due to rulings on various physical challenges but aside from that, very amiable. Human, dwarves and giants in that world are classified as basic humans. And cus of past issues with slave labor n what not, orcs dont like human. But that really it. I like orcs n i think them just being war hungry beast are boring lol im sure someone can look at what i wrote and say this is boring or i took the fun out of their race but ehh, to each their own i guess, do whats fun for you lol.
Vin when
I dont think he would appreciate it lol
In warhemmer fantasy half orcs actually exist they are a chaos dwarf creation however they are not allowed to have much lore spot light because how they are made. To put it simple a chaos dwarf will put orc spores in a woman belly and after a while a half orc is born where they will serve their dark masters however you can already see the problems with all the rape in it lol😅
In honesty, The fan made half orcs I've seen on google images seem more of an impact of a race and look more normal within the mystical race. 🤔
i would read the hungarian book but id probably get bored of it lol
Maybe? I know there are a whole bunch of them so they can't be too bad. I can't read it myself so I can't say if it's boring or not.
@@kid9893 I'll give it a read when I do I'll get back with you.
I don't think humans and orcs should be able to breed
I think it works for older versions of D&D but since orcs have been changed from pure monsters I believe it's unnecessary now.
@@kid9893 I think orcs are too foreign genetically to be able to successfully impregnate or be impregnated by humans, I also think orc dck would be too big and would kill women unfortunate enough to be captured by them.
You hate Human & Orc couples. I bet you wouldn't say the same with Human & Elf couples.
@@futurewario9591 I would say the same about human/high elf couples THOUGH
I never liked green orcs.
Why? Orcs look best in green 💚.
As a player from the earliest times, we always viewed Half Orcs as an extreme rarity, and they were never accepted by either society. Consider the term "Mulatto" for mixed race persons in a "Civilized" real world society (a pejorative term for the most part), and that is among the same species (Human) . I discourage Half Orc characters in my world, but don't outlaw them. For me, they are like mules (a cross between horse and donkey), in that they are sterile and so can't reproduce.
I think this is a good way to play it based on the old DND rules and world. I also haven't heard many people adopting the mule infertility aspect but that's a really good idea.
In my setting, half orcs are fertile but not widespread. Humans and orcs don't really overlap geographically but they're not banned from each other's lands unless they're being troublesome. And the half orc features often breed out in the next generation. Children of half orcs with one full blooded parent always take after the full blooded parent. So there's a lot of families with a history of adventuring and a tusked grandparent and no one pays it any mind.
I can see that. What happens with two half orcs breeding? I assume a Half Orc?
Yeah. If two half orcs get together their child will be a half orc. But as I said in my setting it's just not a big enough deal that half orcs will only carry on with other half orcs. Some people, human and orc alike, prefer the muted orcish human blend features. And some like the distinct full blooded features of the other race so there's always going to be new half orcs.
@@kid9893 I know, I know! That would be a Quarter Ork, right? (Sorry Dad joke)
0:10 NGL she's kinda hot
There are lots of Hot Orc girls in the video dont worry my friend.
:{ D
According to Wotc, half orcs do not exist.
BOYCOTT WOTC
I simply don't like theae half species.
At least not without magic or something, but never a fan.
I prefer the hybrids to be removed. Different species shouldn't cross breed.
Zamn dog 💀
dude we're talking about a world that has magic. I'm pretty sure a human can't crossbreed with a being that made out fire in real life. But with magic it possible.
@@judeduval5724 Wizards do magic. Animals breed and it's natural. Nature ≠ Arcane
Hybrids born from natural pregnancy should probably be removed because the different races might not be biologically compatible.
However then there are hybrids like Vampire+Werewolf which is fine because they are humans with unique supernatural conditions which they can spread like an infection rather than separate biological species.
First
I think youre technically third but youre first in my heart.
The half options are being removed because they suck mechanically. No reason to waste page space on a middle ground choice a dm and player can work out in about 30 seconds at character creation.
Secondly, the politics of a thing are present whether you notice it or not, so complaining about it just makes it look like you oppose reflecting on what good or bad ideas are baked into your hobby.
I agree that they suck mechanically.
I also completely reject this notion that politics are present whether you notice it or not. I understand that everybody will be affected by their own underlying politics but there's a difference between being colored by your worldview and kicking in the door to the hobby and demanding everybody understand your political manifestos. We have seen far too much of the latter and that's what I'm not trying to do.