A Revolution Betrayed: How Egalitarians Wrecked British Education (Peter Hitchens)
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- čas přidán 19. 11. 2022
- Peter Hitchens returns to our #SWYSI sofa to discuss his new book: "A Revolution Betrayed: How Egalitarians Wrecked the British Education System", which also provides an in-depth look at what will happen if things don't change radically.
There are few subjects that cause parents more stress than the education of their children. Peter Hitchens describes the misjudgements made by politicians over the years that have led to the increase of class distinction and privilege in our education system. This is of course the opposite of what was intended.
Given that the cost of private secondary education is now in the region of £200,000 and the cream of Comprehensive Schools are now oversubscribed, parents are spending thousands on private tutoring and fee-paying prep schools in order to get their children into these academically excellent schools. Meanwhile hypocritical Labour politicians like Diane Abbott send their children to expensive private day schools. So, what alternatives - if any - are there?
Peter Hitchens argues that in trying to bring about an educational system which is egalitarian, the politicians have created a system which is the exact opposite. And what's more, it is a system riddled with anomalies - Sixth Form Colleges select pupils on ability at the age of 15, which rules out any child who does not have major educational backing from home (heavy involvement by working parents or private tutors, for example) and academies also are selective, though they pretend not to be.
Peter Hitchens new book may be purchased here: www.amazon.co.uk/Revolution-B...
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I once had a chat with a retired member of teaching staff at one well known University. At the time he had just retired (2015) and we discussed the variation of teaching standards over the years and compared to the modern era. He was a experienced engineer who moved into University teaching during the late 1970s. The subject area we discussed was the mechanical and electronic engineering areas and he said the main problem is the students are not learning properly at school and college.
The variation of knowledge is so wide now that the students are spend the first year crash learning material they should have learnt at college (A Levels, NVQ and OND/C), science and mathematics based subjects.
So what happens is the first year of the degree has become essentially the equivalent to teaching A levels to get all the students at the same level and then the second year of the degree has become the combined traditional first and second year together.
To compensate for the condensing of the material, the exams, the scoring system and assignments have been pulled back to a level the students can cope with and yet still meet the traditional University term 1 and term 2 teaching periods. Also much more help is given for the exam itself. In the past a student would never know what was in the exam.
He did say that recently the third year of the degree has also been pulled back and the final year projects are not to the same level as the traditional student would have been expected to have undertaken.
Anyway thankyou for the video.
I moved to the UK when I was 16, from South Africa. One of the starkest memories I have of that period was the realisation that I was by far more educated than pretty much all of my peers in my new school. In some cases, I was almost 2 YEARS ahead of my fellow pupils that I was attending classes with. And I wasn’t being sent to a standard St. Bogs comprehensive school either, oh no - I was actually attending what most people would consider an elite public school on a cricket scholarship. I remember thinking to myself at the time; “Well, if PRIVATE schools are like this then God only knows what the state equivalents are like”. Ask the average state educated Brit how long WW1 lasted, or why the English Civil War was fought, or what side the Roundheads and the Cavaliers were on respectively. Ask them to to do a Speed=Distance/Time calculation, or name a piece of classical music and its respective composer, or quote ONE poem, or even just write and speak in complete sentences - you’ll find that most simply can’t do it.
The ruination of the education system is a travesty, not only to the economy and society as a whole, but to human dignity itself. I feel so sorry for people who as Peter once said “Haven’t had their minds furnished with beauty” as I have.
Another nail in the coffin of Britain I think, I worry for the future of this country. God’s speed everyone x.
I can vouch for one aspect of your experience, I ask young professionals I work with for the years of WW1 and WW2.... only foreign educated people know the dates....the British 20 somethings say that they didn't study History and therefore the question was unfair....proving both your point that they were failed by a weak education system and the fact that they have an abnormal sense of fairness and zero shame of ignorance...how many millions need to die before it becomes general knowledge rather than an academic historical fact??
Nothing compared to the destruction of tge south African education system
I couldn’t agree more with you. A deliberate act of sabotage in our education system is treason. Young people have been used and abused at universities and most institutions. I know we can turn this round. Unlike Peter, who is entering the third trimester of his life and has given up hope, young people have the strength and heart to continue this fight. It’s sad he will not be at our side to encourage and advise us along the path we have to tread. I will buy his book at Waterstones- they will tell me they don’t have it. But I will order it none the less from them as I did with Roger Scruton’s books. And as always the assistant will tell me with sarcasm that my choice of literature is interesting. The left indoctrinated graduates are everywhere. They are angry young people I have found. They don’t know what they don’t know. They will have nothing and be happy is the sentence I leave the assistant with. If only their lecturers at uni had loved teaching instead of manipulation of young minds young people would have the world at their feet. We will turn this round.
As part of the counter-terrorism regime we live under we DO NOT learn about history. It would form a point of comparison and context that could lead to rebellion. Besides, dumbing down the population works, you can't argue with success.
@@golfbulldog That's strange, because WWI was the one thing I did study in depth for my History O-Level in the 1980s, that and a bit of the Tudors. Hundred Years War; Wars of the Roses; English civil war - nada. What I know about those events is self taught since leaving school. My primary education was better than secondary for history, but that only went up to the medieval period. The downward slide has been happening for some time.
Peter Hitchens should be given a peerage and made Minister of Education.
He doen't tick the right boxes.
Just don't ask him about drugs or he'll throw a tantrum and storm off.....
A lot of Britons now have the feeling that we have lost a war and we are now occupied.
D Day, Jaby.
We did - to America. But we almost deserved to lose, for all the reasons we are now crumbling.
@@megafootyclips9457 'the duke report' book selections.enjoy&suffer.haveaniceday.
From a working class family, I attended a dire local comprehensive and left education before my 16th birthday with virtually no qualifications.
I was determined my children would not have the same experience so I moved house to live in an area which still had a selective grammar school.
My children passed the 11 plus and went to university, the first to do so in our family. They achieved good degrees one gaining a first at Cambridge.
Ditto.
i dont give a shit
@@rodneyhull9764 You obviously do. And mind your language please.
@@CS-cn6bh Pair of snobs
Cambridge and Oxford are amongst some of the most woke and problematic issues that are causing modern problems that are talked about here lol
I was chatting to my GP several years ago about our Grammar School days. At the time my daughter was interested in becomming a medical doctor. He had qualified in about 1979. Many of his peers were from poorer backgrounds but had received a Grammar education. He told me that this was now almost unheard of. Doctors were almost all from well off middle class backgrounds. Usually the children of doctors.
the grammar schools helped a generation or two and that was it. It identified and plucked the bright but poor kids and moved them onwards and upwards,. what remains in the working class are those without the genes to go higher. Assortative mating ensures that both groups are now set in position, 'the top of today breeds the top of tomorrow'
So very true ⬆️
Because at that time there wasn't a big match between intelligence and wealth, since social class was mostly hereditary. Then, when chances for social mobility increased, the clever managed to reach the top and the stupid remained at the bottom.
It is a disgrace. As a 29 year old Englishman I am quite perturbed by the deliberately dismantling of the country.
Probably explains why a lot of them are just c**nts in it purely for the money and career advancement rather than vocational, and that many would rather not ever have to see us lowly plebs again in person.
Sadly, as Mr. Hitchens points out, the greatest obstacle to a return to state grammar school education on a par with standards set before the demise of the former one is not political. It is practical. Where would we find enough teachers of sufficient quality to deliver those standards of state education?
Hong Kong....they need the freedoms we used to have and might yet regain, and we need their brains and ambition. Either that or retired professionals who do a 1 year conversion course to learn a syllabus and they receive tax free pension income.
@@golfbulldog Yes, you may be onto something there.
@@anonnemo2504 something about educated ex-colonial immigrants to the UK, they have an idea of Britain as it was... a place of laws and decency and respect. They soon become "educated" to this falsehood, but at least they still know that it once existed which is more than most kids know now.
Sadly, it is even worse than that: standards across the board -- at the fee-paying schools and at the universities -- have fallen so far that no recovery is possible without some sort of major social revolution.
You can start with one good man thou cant we!
Peter's been a Rock these past couple of years, he's an absolute treasure.
Both Peters! 😊
My education was so poor that I nearly - nearly! - missed your classical reference.
@@orsoncart802 witting
@@rachLXXVII witless
This is what I've wanted Peter Hitchens talking about the demise of western education ( I'm totally serious) I'm deeply interested in this subject.
Indeed! I realised how appalling our education system is after leaving school with no qualifications and then deciding to get into computer programming, this was in 1985. Of course I had to actually learn calculus, trig, algebra and all number of other concepts. I was utterly dismayed that I could teach myself all these things in mere months and was writing database applications for local business within a year. I never excelled in any subjects in school. I hated it.
Later in life I was equally amazed that school did not teach me how the political system worked, what my rights are, how to research and interpret the laws of the land, the dramatic effect of compound interest has on our lives, etc.
Why was I at school for so many years with this diluted mush of a curriculum. I never had any real respect for teachers (save one or two)? We can easily teach kids to read fluently, crunch numbers and logically and decisively solve problems in so little time as well as deeply understand how to function in our political, legal and financial systems...in half the time and a fraction of the cost. The benefits for everybody would seismic.
@@Kefuddle You sound like the sort of person who would make an excellent teacher. Why don't you try it?
@@mikeoglen6848 Ha! Thanks Mike. They would not want people like me in their ranks...
We had A,B and C classes at our school and I was in C class. I went for a job at M&S in 1961 and was given a maths test. To my horror, I had never seen any of this type of maths before and consequently got every one wrong, the interviewer was horrified, and said that in all his time he had never had anyone get all the questions wrong; I was so ashamed I cried!! Then I realised that instead of the maths teacher showing us all how to use the telephones by putting 4 pence in and pressing A to continue with the call or B to refund your money: she should have been teaching us fractions, decimal etc. My aim from that day was learn maths properly. O level Maths had just come out as I left school so I missed them. Now I have a B in GCSE, I am 75 years old and still work in education as a adult learning support assistance: all I needed was the opportunity spoken about here 😢
@@Kefuddle Calibans mirror.
I'm so glad I went to a Catholic boys grammar in the late 60's onward.
It was full of working class kids who needed a culture to lift our horizons up. Strict, fair, sporting. A classical education. Aspirational.
So many of us went into the professions, industry, academia.....whilst our parents worked in factories, building sites, school canteens etc.
That happens much less frequently now, trapped as kids are in their locations and cultures unable to move on and up. The %age of working class kids in university is lower than in the 70's !
I still remember a couple of kids from my junior school class who's parents refused to let them go to a grammar despite having passed the exams and having a good academic record.
I get your overall point, but I don't see how the percentage of working-class students in universities can be lower than the '70s, given 50 per cent of school leavers go to university.
There are less working class people now than in the 70’s! By a lot
@@jimmybobby4824 That was my point.
Whose is this ptarmigan?
Who's lost a ptarmigan?
Who's coming with me to go ptarmigan shooting?
A grammar lesson.
@@jimmybobby4824 It depends how you define working class in todays society.
Crosland and Williams - performed the most monstrous political act in modern British history . . .apart from all the others but they are up there with Heath and Blair.
The King Alfred School was set up by a group of parents who wanted their children to have a classical education in a small, loving yet disciplined environment. There is still the option for parents to get together, take back control and set up their own schools.
The fact that I was able to attend university shows that there is something wrong with the education system in this country.
Great programme Peter. I failed my 11 plus but still believe grammar schools were the best system. My secondary modern taught ‘o’ levels and I did well enough to have a visit from the local Education Authority who offered me a transfer to a grammar school. I actually did ‘A’ levels at a technology college and later obtained an Open University degree in Literature. I think I failed the 11+ because my village school at the time was inadequate. Barbara Ray
WOMEN! Only 'female' behaviour is seen as acceptable, in schools. Masculine behaviour is all seen as a 'threat'. 'Happiness' is the goal of the teachers: 'achievement' without substance. Keeping 'mummy teacher' happy is instilled into all pupils. 'No-one left behind' means that everyone goes at the slowest speed and intellectual level.
What do you consider "female behaviour" and "male behaviour"?
@@apebass2215 Male and female behaviuour has a common core throughout the ages. That is what I mean. But this of course is influenced superficially dependent on the pevalent mores. Currently, we are living though a 'woman can do no wrong' plague where masculinity is seen as unnecessary.
@@patricka.crawley6572 but what do you mean by "female behaviour" only being acceptable? Can you give an example of what you mean? I agree masculinity is under attack in society, but I don't necessarily agree with the idea that women and girls have a blame-free existence. Femininity is also under attack, particularly when you see women being referred to as 'birthing parents' while men who say they are women are being treated as if they are.
@@apebass2215 90% of all audible oral communication in schools is from a female source (primary education). Boys are led to communicate in the same manner as the females and this is counter to boys. nature. Boys a are inculcated with the social mores that female behaviour is the correct behaviour e.g. how to speak, when to speak, following idiosyncratic rules. Thus, their oral development is 'autotuned' and of course this leads to 'thought' being 'autotuned'. Any 'rough' behaviour is deemed 'unacceptable' and frequently punushed inappropriately. Then there's 'role-play'...but that's worth a book.
@@apebass2215 how many lifes have you got.
As a life-long Tory voter this party must be wiped out.
I was a council estate kid who benefited from passing my 11+ and going to a good Grammar School back in the seventies.
A truly fair system that should never have been scrapped.
These two have such a brilliant intellectual and personal chemistry and it is always a pleasure listening to Peter and Peter discussing the angst and turmoils of the day.
One of the very few commentators worth listening to.
‘People imagine that bookshops are neutral places, the same as research …. But that’s not true!’
*well said Peter*
I had my local bookshop order it in. They don't stock many (if any) centre-to-right authors, they're rather lefty in their stock choices, Peter is correct, as he very often is!
The stupidity of our system since the demise of grammar schools is that pupils are streamed by ability
Home Schooling is the future. Grants should be given to parents to incentivise this as an alternative to left wing indoctrination in the ‘educational (sic) establishment.’
@Van Brighouse Factually incorrect. Also your Labour party replaced selection by ability grammar schools with selection by money private schools...
typical Labour gammon trying to lie his way out of facts. Next thing you'll be claiming that WMDs are only days away from being found in Iraq... leftwingers and their illegal wars costing millions of lives, yet wonder why no one votes for the Liebour far-left.
@Van Brighouse Comprehensive schools are an abject failure and, at best, they aspire to mediocrity . Grammar schools are far more driven towards excellence and offer working class students a means of educating themselves out of their social situation. Having taught for fifteen years in Medway (where grammar schools still exist), anybody who supports the comprehensive system over grammar schools fails to grasp how the pursuit of excellence improves the social mobility of students and their life chances. In comparison, comprehensive schools are terrible learning environments riddled with bad pupil behaviour, low expectations, ineffectual (and frequently inexperienced) management and poor teaching: a recipe for mediocrity, failure and stagnation. Although there are some successful comprehensive schools, the top performing students from a comprehensive school are generally lesser able than their grammar school peers and are deeply affected by learning environments that focus on lower ability and 'challenging' students rather than on supporting gifted students, which - and this is almost always forgotten - is itself a special educational need.
@Van Brighouse Liebour lies! Your liebour fantasy of WMDs,a leftwing Labour lie resulted in millions of deaths. Leftwing Labour liars with blood on their hands far left politicians.
@@jakeforder9435 Thank you. The far-left Liebour supporters are very quick to point the finger, and absolve themselves of blame, but illegal utopian wars (supported by Christopher Hitchens) far-left use of Ukraine as a pawn by Nato speaks for itself. Disgusting far-left policies have led us to the disaster we now suffer through.
One indication I noted about British Higher Education, which Peter Hitchens sparked, was the old Open University that ran one BBC2 late at night.
When I did my IT degree back in the 90s I remember watching the IT lectures through the night and being astounded over how difficult and advanced they were.
The OU was often frowned upon as a lower class degree, but my experience was the quality of their learning and knowledge.
I mention this as my current opinion of education is very poor and, as Peter suggests, is as worthless as “Zimbabwean dollars”.
Unfortunately we seem to be sleep walking into an increasingly ignorant society in which there will reach the rubicon and be unable to reverse the rot.
Sadly we may already be at this point.
Interesting. I left school without going to uni in the mid 80s. Still managed to work my way into a pretty successful career as an analyst programmer, which is what I'm still doing now. I decided to get qualified a few years ago (was thinking of migrating and needed the pts). While I realise I already had a wealth of experience, the level people were expected to achieve to pass each module was frankly pathetic. You could buy any teach yourself book and be at the required level by chapter three. Blocks of code were all provided with a minor mistake on one line. There was no attempt to get people to write code from scratch. Even the year long projects that were supposed to be individualised were scrapped, with one subject being followed. The tutors basically did the work for everyone and just had them apply their own coloured backgrounds to 'individualise'. To top it all, after the mocks, everyone was taught to answer the mock questions for the last three months. I learned why when I sat the actual exams and found they were the very same questions set in the mocks.
So you've got a load of students walking around, some with first class degrees, that have absolutely no idea how to write the most basic program - and this was before they started indoctrinating students with CRT.
@@soothsayer1964 I too am, or was, an analyst programmer and found my Uni course pathetic in itself, but it gave me access to learn what I needed to do.
Four of us entered the course able to program and design and four us left the course (in my humble opinion) able to provide any benefit to our discipline.
I totally agree with you.
We even had a student rebellion in my year where they formally complained over the programming tutor not teaching them to programming.
What they failed to realise was Neil Baker was a genius that gave us beta access to unreleased Windows 95 and enabled us few actual programmers the best insight into the (then) leading edge OO operating system (in talking about the elements like Hawaii and Chicago etc). Yet my girlfriend and her mates at that time couldn’t even write a GSBasic or Modulo2(Pascal) routine to literally perform basic arithmetic.
You sound like a coder from my own heart.
Agree, I went on to teach and trained IT but before doing so, did a few Units with OU, and in my opinion were some of the best training materials and lecturers I ever came across, including my own B.Ed and later working in several Universities delivering MCSE courses.
My wife spent two years at OU, this enabled her to apply to university as a mature sudent and submit a written paper to the Uni. Some years later she has a masters degree in liguistics. So if you missed out on uni direct from scholl try the mature student approach.
@@garybrindle6715 I actually started on a YTS scheme after being kicked out of the lower sixth form as a trainee computer programmer. I then went to university as a mature student with a fear that I would be backward compared to my younger fellow students.
Boy was I wrong! They did not even know what the "third person" was or how to use a comma. I was 25 and they were 19, but the decline in education within those 6 years was astounding.
I actually believe university should be delayed until the early twenties and used to stude a subject rather than fill a CV.
Fascinating points made by Peter , All of which I find myself wholeheartedly agreeing with .
Thank goodness for this channel , where open and uninterrupted discussions can take place .
Great work the whole team .
Also some great comments on here as well .
My parents were born in the early 1920’s, I was born in the early 1950’s and they both had a far better education than I did.
@John Weedon: My aunt taught Economics and General Principles of English Law at a Borstal near Cambridge in the 70s. Inmates who opted for education as opposed to, say, working on the farm studied those subjects to RSA level III along with English and History. French and History of Art were other options. And this in a Borstal! There's no way you could expect that level of education in a modern comprehensive. Elitist, innit?
Although I failed my " eleven plus" while my brother, passed we both decided, having lost our father when children, that an engineering apprenticeship was the way forward. At the age of thirty I was a chartered Marine Engineer and a member of two professional organisations. My brother finished up in the USA and at retirement was a senior engineer in the space programme. So sometimes our education can be the result of later development if the ability is there.
To both Peters I can tell you that back in 1981 when I and about 40 other guys (mainly parents) all from industry, did our first teaching practise week in secondary schools during the second year of a government scheme inviting people from industry to retrain as Maths and Science Teachers (B.Ed) that on meeting up, we ALL could not believe what we had seen and experience in the schools we went into. About a third of us dropped out, not because of discipline issues but the hostility and opposition we found from mainly very left wing and pro-politically correct teachers which became the bedrock of Woke.
After qualifying, most of us kept in touch but even though we got on with the kids, mainly had good discipline and good exam results it was mainly a 'battle' in fighting 'Equalitarian' zealots more concerned with promoting ideology than actual teaching.
I was one of the last to go, doing 14 years and obtaining DH status primarily on the back of IT, record-breaking exam results and even though I could be very strict I was very popular with pupils and parents - which led to my downfall as I was set up, a pupil gave false evidence and thanks to the child's mother stating her son had lied as another teacher had told them to do so, I kept my job.
But the ever present stress and constant undermining by left-wing teachers eventually wore me and putting my health and family first, left a job I loved and was good at.
I went in commercial IT training for 12 years but on retiring spent 8 years as a Private Tutor teaching A-Levels which allowed me to witness the incredibly 'dumbing down' and decline of the standard of Maths, Science and Business Studies exams for all the major exam boards.
I have kept my GCE Maths paper on leaving school in 1969, without any doubt when comparing it with my last year of being a private tutor when comparing it with the A-Level paper one of my pupils came back to show me, was of a far lesser standard of the 1969 GCE paper.
I could not agree more Peter Hitchins and next time I am in town, will go to our main street bookshop and ask if they have it. Unfortunately even though what he states is true, sadly the damage has now been done, as we see every day in the decline of general intelligence, skills, maturity and the death of excellence.
I still have my two O' Level maths papers from 1979. What you say is true. My son attended the A-level maths course in the early noughties and admitted that his course was less rigourous than my O' Level of 25 years previously.
@@WG1807 Interesting you mention that. I recall someone saying that O-Level questions from the 1970s had turned up in A-Level papers in the 2000s. A friend who stuck it out in academia (rather than leaving as I did) said that he ended up teaching a lot of his old A-Level stuff to the new undergraduates, because without doing it. they were lost!
Peter says that in 1953/54, 65 per cent of pupils in grammar schools came from working-class homes. What he doesn't say is that in 1953/54, a far larger percentage of the country's population were working class. I agree with his overall point, though.
As a retired teacher, I am depressed at falling educational standards being dressed up as 'higher standards'. I attended a grammar school in the '60s. I am glad I did.
Peter is right when he questions where we could find the teachers for grammar schools now. A levels are a shadow of what they were. As a teacher, I saw the fall in standards for myself. It is now perfectly possible for a semi-literate to get a 'good' university degree.
Excellent video.
I am thinking the same. As a long retired teacher in the sciences, much of the politics did not occur in the science faculties at University and later when teaching in a New Comp. I have been staggered by the lack of basic all round education of many of today's young teachers.
@@gbentley8176 Absolutely. They simply do not know their subjects. No one studies properly anymore.
I'm unhappy as I am working towards making England non-English, I am deemed racist for wanting to see an English future, I am forced to feel happy that 250,000 new people (larger than most armies) are coming here a year. This country's past is nonsensed while its future is destroyed what is the point of me trying to build anything when it is to be enjoyed by foreign hands and minds.
My wife, who got her educational qualifications after the children left home, educated our 3 boys at home for 3 years using Christian Education books. When they went back into junior school, they were far ahead of their peers; they could do long division and had knowledge of English grammar way beyond anyone.
My children go to a trades school which is parent and business. The school is run on traditional values and very selective. But it works. Parents and children go through a selection process.
We weed out potential disruptive woke ideology. The children are far more advanced than that of state schools.
Grammar Schools should be expanded so that every local government has at least one!
Surely one issue that needs addressing is our system of accreditation, which narrows subject matter within schools and reduces achievement down to how to pass an exam in rather abstract conditions. I realise exams have their place, but the contemporary approach seems to be more about tactics in passing a test rather than having a deep understanding of content. A policy that I believe has been driven by ‘big education business’ rather than any concern for the maintenance of an educated population.
This same system also favours girls over boys because it focusses on just applying knowledge you have been taught, rather than understanding the topic of which you are being quizzed on. Girls are very good at regurgitating information but not very good at understanding *why* something is the way it is (they make up ideas in their head as to what it could mean instead of objectively looking at what is in front of them/doing research: i.e the feminist theories are prime examples of this. I say this as a woman myself). While boys are the opposite. This is why I'm all for gender segregating schools again to tailor the teaching style to each gender and pushing the boundaries of their comfort zone (mentioned above) to expand their ideas.
Thank you, Gentlemen. I was a working class lad who passed the dreaded eleven plus exam and attended a Grammar School in North London. Class of '67. A year or two above me was a handsome lad called Peter Mandleson who helped free us from the tyranny of the School Prefects who were empowered to dish out punishment (3 sides on the inside of a ping-pong ball by tomorrow sort of stuff). He went and spoke to the Head Master and this practice ended. Our Hero! Admittedly, times were changing, but it must have been one of his first political successes.
Peter certainly thought he was handsome. preening & lovingly smoothing his hair on house of commons tv. he made quite the impression.
For gods sake be strict with your kids, suffer in the here and now, save money and send your kids to a grammar or private school. Comprehensive schools/Academies are are akin to the jungle and catastrophic bad habits are transferred by association. England is in decline - vote reform and sign the petition called withdraw from the european convention of human rights if you are so inclined.
Two unmentioned factors, neither particularly egalitarian. One, the middle class whose children failed the 11+ wanted an alternative to a crappy secondary modern education; two, the elite did not like working or lower middle class children getting the type of education their own children were getting at private schools. Hence, comprehensives.
With Peter all the way, I understand his frustration, I've been talking to a brick wall for as long if not longer than he has! This government is totalitarlian. I know, I bang on about it but someone needs to!
I know what happened in the 1970s to children who went to comprehensive schools who were perceived to be middle class. I can remember her now, Pat she was called. She was in my class. Despite being severely injured in a car accident, she was relentlessly bullied and ostracised. I remember her distress vividly. Thankfully her parents removed her. Others were less lucky.
15 lots of bullying a day is hardly likely to cultivate academic interest, particularly in a child who had discovered T Rex ( the group not the dinosaur) I was never interested in Roman pieces getting layed, anyway. One teacher, ONE, saw potential in me. He actually said " He will be a great writer one day" bless him. ML.
Yes, bullying is one of the fundamental human reasons why comprehensive education will never work. The bright children either have to pretend they're not, and ruin their own education (as a cousin of mine did), or expose themselves to relentless bullying for being a swot, or whatever the modern term is.
Sadly several of my colleagues' children have been bullied in comprehensives because they're too bright, and the schools have sided with the bullies, pointing out that they come from 'disadvantaged backgrounds'. They've had no choice but remove them, and the bullies win every time.
Fundamentally, intelligent children and thick ones don't mix, and shouldn't be forced to in order to satisfy some kind of 'blank slate' political ideology.
This was very interesting. I was educated at one of the comprehensive's that Hitchens alluded to; that is one with streaming, houses and the odd gown. I received a high quality, academic education alongside others who would be looking for work in heavy industry at sixteen. It was pretty good. There was very little mixed ability except at games (at which I was rubbish). If comprehensives had generally been like this, I don't think we'd have the same problems.
Yes. For some decades now, progressively, governments have been more interested in resetting the 'bars' of education & qualification; lower & lower, rather than investing in higher standards for the educators & their institution.
There's no way any A~B passing grade today could pass at that level from exams 30+ years ago; & many of that period would struggle with the requirements & standards of the 60s & 70s in the same way.
The passing requirements have been lowered so very much. (And especially since the transition to gcse from A & O level; & the abominable introduction of yts schemes over apprenticeships.)
I'll point out too that only conformity in the educational system is awarded, now, over excellence.. & excellence is punished, the 'educators' just can't handle the extra work.
This is a simple fact.
I agree with Peter on proportional representation. I live in New Zealand, we switched from first past the post to proportional representation. You can get good government under either system but the MPs are more accountable under FPTP. Under MMP voters cant get rid of an undesirable MP, as long as they have the support of their party and 5% of the vote they are untouchable and they know it. The other bad thing about MMP is that voters don't directly control who becomes the government. Who becomes the government is decided by negotiations to form coalitions after the elections. Voting for a moderate party is very risky because they might decide to go into coalition with the government you are trying to get rid of. We have even had a situation where a supporter of one party gave big donations to pay the legal bills of the leader of another party while they were negotiating to form a government.
I went to a catholic secondary school in the 1980s and I can recall the cap and gown headmaster on certain days, usually when a significant figure (Bishop for example) was in school.
The whole structure of the school changed around the time it went from GCE Ordinary Level exams to GCSEs. I recall taking the first set of GCSE exams and they had a sticky label over the GCE Ordinary Level writing at the top of the exam paper. The exam board simply added a label saying GCSE Southern Exam Group or whatever at the time, but the exam paper was the O level paper as we in class had learnt material for the O level exam.
GCE Advanced Level were still the same as they had been in the 1960s, but all that changed through the 1990s and now they don't appear resemble the A levels I did in 1993.
Some subjects I was good and others I found deeply boring. For example I was good at the technical subjects - Maths, Physics, Tech Drawing. But hated Geography, History, English Language and Literature.
I now have a degree in Electronic Engineering and work in a technical job.
I went to a Grammar school in the 70s. Truth is the Middle classes didn't want top class education for smart working class kids.
Yep, got it in one. They still don't, which is why the UK will continue to languish behind more enlightened places.
Neither do the elite. They don't like competition.
'Where would you find the teachers?' asks Mr Hitchens. Indeed. Teachers today know nothing worth passing on to the next generation. It doesn't bode well for the future.
I went to a secondary modern school and transferred to a comprehensive when my parents moved house. The comprehensive school was about 2 years behind the secondary modern school.This was in 1960.
I won't mention any names, but my year at grammar school in the 1970s now boasts one retired admiral, one retired colonel, a cricketer capped for England, two university professors (one in classical philosophy, one of medicine), a slack handful of PhDs (small fry, including yours truly) and an FRS. [Edit] and I forgot, a household name comedian. Not bad for a small-town selective school.
My comprehensive school which was an ex Grammar school, I won't mention any names but whilst I was there boost of 3 ex premiership footballers, 5 rappers (English Scholars), 2 gang leaders (CEO potentials), a fraud genius (a maths whiz), a couple of bank robbers(could have been civil servant tax men), a number of pharmaceutical entrepreneurs and a arms dealer. Nothing like the achievements of the previous alumni from the Grammar school era.
The country is crying out for a party who will put the native British first and not any old foreigner who slips in, or breaks in, or jets into the country. The country is crying out but the politicians are refusing to even offer that as an option, let alone do as the British people - in majority - want.
Stand outside any school and watch what type of people arrive to teach. It's difficult to decide if they are greenham common peace campaigners or on the game.
I was borderline at 11+ and having been for an interview it was decided I should attend a fairly new local Comprehensive School for GCE O level's. There were two top streams in the Comprehensive School who sat for GCE exams. In the mid 1960s I transferred to a girls' Grammar School to do A levels. I didn't want to go to University, but have since studied with the Open University and gained a Doctorate. At the Grammar School, it was expected that you continued on to University, or went into Nursing, or went into Local Government. While the education system did not fail me, privately funded piano tuition and music learning helped enormously.
borderline. there's a pill for that.
@@wand_ERRer 😀 There is? In my case at the 11+, they thought I would do better as a bigger fish in a smaller pool, that a minnow in the large (grammar school) pool - they were probably right.
@@coffeebreaktheology2634 all big fish were once titchy. most forget tho'. they have the attention span of an average human.
It's not misjudgement. It's by design!
miss judgement. MIfav!
‘Tribal loyalty trumps thought.’ Indeed
I'll definitely buy this book for Christmas! I'm sure it'll be money well spent. Thanks, Peter Hitchens!
I passed the 11plus, went to a "good" grammar school. I remained in the middle of the academic scale. (If I had gone to a secondary modern, I would have been in the middle). I did not stay on to A levels but took an apprenticeship in a small, unionised printing company. Part of the deal was the requirement to attend "day release" at the London College of Printing. In those days, the 1960s, it was a truly incredible place. I took the Ordinary National at the LCP and then, rather than go in to the trade went to Watford College of Technology to take a degree. These Colleges changed my life and the destruction of such places is a national disgrace!
i went to an old fashioned style of grammar school from 1979; i am glad that i did; it is evident from where i live that social mobility was far greater under the previous system than now; ie, te previous system was more meritocratic, and more aspirational.
Always love Peter Hitchens interviews on this channel. Never interrupted.
Before I was born my Father was a housemaster at the biggest Comprehensive in the country. A change of job and move to the other end of the country later, he decided to send me and my younger brother to a private primary. Then we went to the local Grammar, although I was the last year of 11+ intake and the school was on a downward trend.
Hitchens and Whittle: Defenders of the Realm!
The 'First past the post' system only works if you have good governments who can effectively make positive changes given the time and freedom to implement their policies. HOWEVER, we are way past the time when our current political class are capable of good governance. Therefore our next best option is to limit the power of all parties seeking to form a government, in order to be a check and balance on the corruption that is now endemic in the corridors of Westminster and beyond.
FPTP needs to go, it is undemocratic and has created a political deadlock making voters apathetic. I completely disagree with Peter Hitchens on that point.
I was in secondary School in the 90s in Ireland, and let me tell you, if you didn't have your homework done you would be HIT with a Cane any cheek and bang with the cane. My maths teacher threw the maths book at my head ( was a very big book). We didn't imagine how to complain, but I know my tables and poems verbatim even today. Bring back the Cane.
Brilliant interview.
Mine went in 1970 and the local Secondary Modern became a High School. There were lots of nice new buildings which sweetened the bitter pill for the pupils. The Grammar School got turned into a housing estate.
I went to a Grammar School-destroyed by the enemy within.
I had a superb education at a Grammar School way back when but my children had no choice but a Comprehensive 1000 pupils no comparison at all
Same fore me, fortunately my daughter did well despite the the education system rather than because it.
@@youngoldboy3430 thankyou one of mine did well but sadly not the other
I so agree with Peter Hitchens. I had both Grammar and Secondary education in the early 60's, yes there was a difference, but I have to say that some Secondary schools had great teachers who taught more than one subject and the standard of education back then was very high.
Brilliant again.
Well i am happy. i am self educated. in all sorts of things. a truther. a prepper. a patriot. and wising up about God[s]. self reliance thats the thing.
@ Gerry Stevens Same here, 75 years of determination and success. It took a local builder to explain to me the application of subjects learned at High School. Every day full, learning new things.
I saw Peter’s new book on display at Hyndland bookshop which is an independent bookstore in West End of Glasgow.
Comprehensive school Liverpool 1970s.
Headmaster's philosophy: You are the working class that is no longer needed. We need to prepare you for the new age of progress and leisure.
Mixed ability general science classes 14 years old. Flashes and bangs in test tubes. Chewed up gobs of soggy paper being launched across the lab by bored kids. What is an atom? Teacher shouting at top of her voice. A sea of bored eyes. Big lad swaying on his stool chewing a bunsen burner. Teacher has an O'level in biology (grade unknown) - studies for A'level at weekends. Headmaster sweeps in. Loves science. Science should be knowledge for all. Teacher blushes. I look at the clock. Another 50 minutes of numbness before the lunchtime playground cruelty. Teacher talking about planets - wants everyone to memorise the law of gravity. That is the single educational goal for the year.
300 pupils in the year - University admissions 2.
Spot on Ian. My experience too. Total waste of time and money for most kids, and it's only got worse - much worse.
Another good interview.
You should do one on the wrecking of education in the university particularly the socialist and communist obliteration of facts etc
Went to St. Columb’s in Derry; got a kicking, left Norn Iron and picked a PhD big deal. Wee Toe’s English lesson is where we got the grammar. That’s what I remember.
so you the one one with an iron skull i bust my toe on.
In Germany they have technical/engineering secondary schools for pupils who are less interested in the more academic/theoretical subjects. Why were these schools not introduced here?
Maybe Peter should go to Singapore and talk with head teachers over there and try to brainstorm ideas to solve the school issue
I am just a couple of years older than Peter and went to school in the England he described. The remarkable period of grammar schools in the late 50s 60s is the one I remember. Stephen Hawking in his early autobiography note that when he went to Oxford in 1959, he was a rarity as a grammar school boy and mocked by the majority from public schools. When I went to Cambridge 10 years later, this had completely reversed. As a grammar school boy I was easily the majority and those who were mocked where are the guys from Eton who were suspected of not being a smart.
Well, they weren't as smart - lol
In September 1978 I was among the first flush of boys to attend a new mixed high school after converting from a girls grammer. It was pretty appalling and the feeling was we were guinea pigs.
Social mobility !? What were your chances? Football, boxing or Grammar School. I lived through the chaotic transition to Comprehensive. They poured them all into one pot where they all settled to the bottom. Without Grammar Schools there was no where for the cream to rise to.
Teaching became crowd control with any extra capacity used to manage the poorly performing /behaved at the cost of excellence. So sad, cruel and short sighted. Great to hear Peter presenting the case so eloquently. I’m afraid it stands no chance of being heard against the background noise of woke.
I had the misfortune to spend some time at John Roan school as a supply teacher a number of years ago. There no sign at all of ever having been a grammar school, apart from the look of the buildings!
Two questions
1/ How many students eash grammar school used to take in every year(1955-60)
2/How big was the population of briton in 1955-60
Population then in 1950 about 50 million now 70 million largely due to Immigration.
@@paulmatthews7963 and how many students one grammar school used to take in every year???
maybe we have to look upon that era between 1944 and the sixties as a golden era where working class children could get a good education and do well. but Peter is also correct in what he says about getting it wrong with secondary moderns when it was realised that they were a failure and spent the next few years pretending they weren't. this is how Government works. Pretend it is really OK rather than admit they made a mistake. They then continue to build on the bad situation, making changes that make it worse, instead of going back to what actually worked.
the major difference between sec. modern & comprehensive was that sec. moderns taught you how to think comprehensives teach you what to think.
As always a interesting subject , and one close to my heart . Governments are never happier than messing with the education system . And always with a negative impact , but I would ask as is now the case with more and more people going to university has it really lead to the opportunity’s it once did . More and more companies are struggling to find real talent , because most have come through a educational program that has failed to educate them to a better standard . And of course separate the gifted from the less so , yes I except this sounds non inclusive but I feel this has to be said . I my self left school at 15 without a single qualification , not even been put forward to take the eleven plus such was the lack of ability . But I had the opportunity to go into a manual trade . I have never felt I was let down by my school which I left in the summer of 1968 , having spent my entire time in the bottom C classes . But now everyone is supposed to succeed and go on to university , sounds wonderful yet in reality it’s just not working
We should never have focussed on inclusivity because that breeds mediocrity. Exclusiveness breeds excellence. Never apologise for not being inclusive.
@@peachesandcream8753 thanks for your kind and informed comment , as you have probably guessed I’m a product of the early 1950s 53 to be precise . And I’m afraid being apologetic is ingrained into my very being . Having said that it doesn’t mean I’m afraid to stand up and be counted , far from it . Best wishes and kind regards to your good self , I’m afraid I could not give you a formal title but I’m sure you will forgive my indiscretion 😀👍👍👍
@@Mc674bo Don't be sorry. I'm afraid that you, and my aunt's generation (60's-70's), were whipped into submission when it came to gender and racial ideology to no fault of your own. The accusations of racism, sexism, and discrimination are more likely to work on someone pre-90's thanks to the post-war period and the fear of Hitler-esque ideas of racial superiority coming back. My generation (90's-2000-'s) are less scared because we've seen it being thrown around to the point of irrelevance. I just shrug now when I'm accused of racism.
Very interesting. However, when comparing grammar to sec mod schools from personal I would like to add another category. Sec Mod on a large council estate. 1962 I went to a Sec Mod on such an estate on the outskirts of Croydon. Whilst I failed my 11+ my future brother-in-law passed and got into a Grammar school. Great you might think but sadly no because his parents could not afford to buy the specific uniform required o the requisite gym kit, let alone the bus fares to get to the school and back home. So although he was proven to have been a smart lad he ended up at the Sec Mod I attended. Destined to be what was described then to be Factory Fodder rather than an academic. It was more than a coincidence that the estate had many factories on it as well. A comparison for Peter given he comes from Oxford would perhaps be the Blackbird Leas estate. In my opinion the specific problems on these estates are that the school's catchment areas determine that the school are made up of pupils mainly from parents who have manual jobs or maybe these days long term unemployed and therefore have fewer aspirations for their kids than the parents whose kids go to the other two types of school I mention. Given Peters intellect he's not someone I could talk to, but I will certainly be buying his book.
love Peter
it's painful. that's how you can tell.
You can't educate people that want to tell you "their truth".
39:00
An extension of the equivalency of "A-Levels at the same level of a US undergraduate degree", was the accepted acknowledgement that a UK undergraduate degree was, in academic terms, at the same level as a US postgraduate degree.
But those days have gone.
Peter's arguments are perfectly stated, but I don't think they will ever revive grammar schools, or even question the existence of the private ones, unfortunately.
The world is changing far too quickly and the west (especially the uk) is now so idealistic and ideological that such notions would be attacked vociferously and brutally by powerful, vested forces.
A personal point about the late 60's: I remember pupils joining grammar and other selective schools from sec moderns. None eventually did well enough to justify their move - and I couldn't justify my initial selection either. I'd just about scraped in to a school whose curriculum and values were above my outlook and abilities.
I went to a Secondary Modern school without knowing what one was. It seems to have had some grammar school pretentions, as there were different houses. Alcuin (mine, Blue) Fairfax (red), Cadman (green) and Wilberforce (yellow). Only after leaving did I learn I was being prepared to as factory fodder. Yet there were no factories where I lived.
I agree with Peter when he talks about education being lost and what happened to grammar schools was wrong because the motives to destroy them were political. However, aptitude in Latin, Greek or indeed French should not have been used as a measure of someone’s ability or intelligence. Grammar schools were elitist and it was this that got up the noses of the Leftists & Socialists.
No, Brit socialists send their own children private.
Excellent point that Amazon may actually be, counter-intuitively, a boon to the likes of Peter. There's no doubt that, lovely that old traditional bookshops are, they very much display the preferences of the staff that work there.
Peter's absolutely right of course and Comprehensive schooling ruined State education. What's usually missed though in this debate is that the Grammar schools rarely picked up the kids from the most educationally deprived backgrounds - the underclass. For working class kids with aspirant parents and a functional home life, Grammar schools were a wonderful opportunity and a leg-up to a better future. But that still left many kids who never stood a chance in any system. Grammar schools will never come back, but even if they did, that underclass has only grown in recent decades.
How to engineer an inevitable slide in values and standards - first, ignore the error of ever expecting rules of proof applicable to logic to apply to social and cultural standards; second, once categorical proofs for cultural judgments are found not to apply, assert as the only alternative an egalitarian environment for making cultural, moral, aesthetic judgments; third, assert the consequence, that having equality in this realm can only be admission of purely personal preference; fourth, assert a low bar in all areas in order to include equally the fullest range of personal preferences; fifth, enjoy exploiting the degradation of the society while you can.
Could you have Peter debate a Taliban leader on absolute morality?
"...who is doubtless a nice person and is kind to animals...", nearly spat out my drink at that one! 😆
The English language has been totally dumbed-down over the past 20 years by America. Even Mr. Hitchens partakes in bad American grammar.
bitter than bard coco a.i. ne.
My dad was a plumber, both my parents left school at 14. Me, Grammar School, Chartered Engineer. My kids education has been abject. Even sending my daughter to a fee paying school did not result in a brilliant education - all it did was allow her to get straight As without either the school or her really trying. "Degrees are like Zimbabwe dollars" Love it!
My son is an engineer too. He went to a comp. Would never have gotten to a grammar school 🤔
@paulwilliams5108 I wouldn't be so sure about that, (assuming you mean he is a genuine engineer registered with the Engineering Council, as opposed to a technician, as the terms are frequently interchanged in the UK.) BEng degrees are acknowledged to be among the most academically demanding of all university degrees. If he is clever enough to obtain a BEng, or BSc & MSc, he would have been clever enough to go to a grammar school.
Bring back the Tripartite system
Quite right what Peter is saying - I did an "AS level" in Chemistry in 2004 and found it easier than an "O Level" in Chemistry back in 1976. Much too much "multiple choice" and nothing like enough testing hard chemistry knowledge.
What Subject? Because none of my AS Levels in 2018 had any multiple choice.
@@Hypnopotimus27 If that's true then that's the work of Micheal Gove, God bless him, who has been desperately trying to stop the rot at the heart of the UK education system. Back in 2004 I walked into a night school classroom having not done any Chemistry for 25 years and rose quickly to the top of the class - there only seemed to be me and a couple of others putting in a decent effort. And then shock, horror or delight - whatever there I was being given an AS mock exam - nearly half of which was multiple choice.
People are trained just enough now to keep their vices maintained.
if you don't discipline their thumbs they tend to suck them.
Intro was hilarious 😂
The fruit of of Gramsci's long march through the education institution?
it's how you know know 'em.
i have just educated my kid through to eighteen, to be honest, exept for the covid, i was fairly impressed. Maybe because it's Bath.
They also wrecked our education system here in Flanders, Belgium.