The Top 9 Starting Pitchers of the Modern Era
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- Mike Fisher from Codify Baseball and PitchingNinja discuss MLB's Top 9 Pitchers of the Modern Era.
Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux Tom Seaver, Roger Clemens, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan Clayton Kershaw
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After looking at stats, Warren Spahn might be most underrated ever, no one ever talks about him
He doesn't get talked about much, and that's unfortunate... But as great as he was, I don't see him in the top nine
Problem with him is the same with Seaver, they crossed eras.
Spahn missed several prime years to WW2 then came back to win 20 or more games 13 times (several times for mediocre Boston Braves teams) including 23 at age 42. Started 665 games and completed 382 of them.
Now we see guys going 11-10 winning big awards and they have a complete game once every two years. Spahn wasn't under-rated then and he shouldn't be now by today's stat nerds and those punks defending trash like Bauer.
That slow mf would lul batters to sleep as he carved up your lineup. Before you knew it you were 0-3 going into your last at bat and you felt like you had the edge. 0-4. The most comfortable outs. You caught the 0fer and you didnt know how he played you for a confident fool. A pitcher in the most pure sense. Speed, movement be damned. The inverse of a Ryan at bats.
Thank you for putting Bob Gibson on the list! MLB Network is crazy for not putting him in the top 10! He’s my favorite all time Cardinals pitcher! Loved his attitude too!
He’s #1 for forcing mlb to lower the mound.
Gibson # 1
Gibson had the best pitching season of the modern era. It was ridiculous. 22-9, 1.12 ERA, 304.2 IP
I feel like some people don't put him on there bc he purposely threw at guys heads to get ppl out. Not pitch inside but tell them they're going for the head and doing it
There's been a lot of Nolan Ryan hate lately and I just don't understand. Every hitter from the 70s and 80s will tell you the one guy they never wanted to face was Nolan Ryan. He was special, and it means something to have done it for 27 years. That just doesn't happen. He's one of the greatest straight up. It can't be denied
I feel that Ryan is getting a renewed sense of appreciation lately. No matter what his k's are undeniable to anyone
Top 10 all time is hating??? 🤣🤣🤣
What I don't understand is why people think pointing out that Ryan wasn't the best pitcher ever is in any way "hate."
Nobody will ever equal his K and no hitter records. EVER. Nobody will ever approach his walk record either.
I don't hate Nolan Ryan. I watched him every chance I could get. I still have my ticket stub from his 298th win (1990 in Detroit). He wouldn't be in my top 9 though. Maybe not my top 20 (though he'd be close)
He was never the best pitcher in his league in any season. On any given night, of course, he stood a chance of being the best pitcher in the world. Did so 7 times. Twice after his 40th birthday. If anything, he learned to be a better pitcher after he lost a couple MPH on his fastball; which says all you need to know about his competitive nature.
Not only was he not the best pitcher in his league, he wasn't even always the best pitcher on his team (Frank Tanana on the Angels and Mike Scott on the Astros were frequently more reliable run stoppers than Ryan).
But that's not hate - that's just facts. If you think the potential of a no-hitter and knowing the other team is going to be intimidated as hell every time they step in the box, you'll rank him higher than I do. If you think walking 4.7 batters per 9 is absolutely unforgivable, you'll rank him lower than I do.
There have been over 20,000 pitchers in MLB history. To say 20 of them were better pitchers than Ryan isn't hate. It's massive respect for the Express.
Calling 7th all time is not hate @@VinceWhitacre
@@MrRJC1991uhhh I'm not the one talking about "Ryan hate." I'm the one saying knocking him down a few pegs is NOT hate.
Randy Johnson is my #1. A case could be made for any in the top 5, but for me it’s Randy Johnson. For hitters, his long reach and step must’ve felt like he was releasing the ball 5ft from the plate. His arm angle was nasty, those sliders coming from outside the batters box had to be ridiculous. That World Series run he had was magic, a playoff run Pedro wasn’t able to match. I don’t recall a playoff run where Pedro carried a game like Johnson did, Longevity means something and Unit had that too.
For 1-3 year periods I have randy too. When he was 97-99 with the control in Arizona that's just hard to even hit physics wise.
Also pedro had his postseason moments... 3 of the best of all time it's just in 2 of those years they lost to the Yankees in the lcs
For me peak Pedro will always be the GOAT.
Peak Pedro Vs Peak Clemons… we got a game there!
Hard to argue bro. Pedro is the reason a lot of pitchers are playing today and with a lil swag to pitching too
Just seeing Greg Maddux is awesome to see. I have always loved high powered pitching like Randy Johnson, but Greg's command and his ground ball outs has always been really cool to watch. Great video guys!!
Seaver, the darling of the NY media, underrated and unknown? My God, how quickly they forget. The '69 Mets were the biggest baseball story of my lifetime -- not just for being in the NY media market, but the arc from lovable losers to World series champs, and Seaver got most of the credit for turning them around. (And the biggest football story of my lifetime happened in the same year, also featuring a NY team -- Jets over Colts in Super Bowl 3.) Seaver probably led MLB in endorsements for several years. Until Rivera surpassed him, he had the highest vote percentage for the HOF. He was Tom Terrific, the all-American boy back when that image had considerable currency, especially juxtaposed against the backdrop of '60s cultural turmoil. No athlete had a bigger media presence in his day.
Can't argue with any of your nine -- or that '99-'00 Pedro took pitching to the highest level ever achieved -- but three close also-rans come immediately to mind: Lefty Carlton, Jim Palmer and Whitey Ford (arguably the greatest post-season pitcher of all).
Good comment. Maybe a little extra nostalgia but fair points. As someone who wasn't alive for several, I would say the red Sox comeback in 04 and 98 hr race were in the conversation of biggest baseball stories of your lifetime. But not arguing your claims. Thanks for the extra info on seaver
@@kenw2225 Agree about '04 Sox and '98 HR chase, and I would add the 2016 Cubs to the list. But the NY media blow everything up to an extra level of hype -- witness "the shot heard round the world," Bobby Thompson's HR, also (just barely) in my lifetime. The Met's '69 Series win didn't have the impact on baseball that the Jets' Super Bowl win did, bringing the AFL to parity with the NFL, but it was one of the biggest upsets in Series history against a truly great Orioles team, and the three-year arc from total ineptitude to WS winners was even more dramatic than the ascent of the Sox and Cubs from decades of losing. The Mets were a national joke -- "come see my amazin Mets," said Casey Stengel ironically. Then Seaver joined the club.
Seaver was "The Franchise"
69 had New York over Baltimore in baseball and football.
It should be factored in pitchers that faced pitchers on NL for about 3 at bats per game vs DH which was likely a premier hitter vs a pitcher. When Ryan went to the angels in 72, that incredible historic 72 to 74 stretch was against line ups with DH. Also, with lower mound I believe. Facing pitchers 3x per game vs DH is a huge edge to NL pitchers in the DH era.
No Sid Finch was a snub 😂 at least his greatness was mentioned
Does Michael know that there are people out in the world who will exchange hair cuts for money
Oh that is funny. 😂😂
Sometimes, saving money can be a Pyrrhic victory.
Youse guys have such an excellent grasp of baseball stuff, in general. Your picks, while obviously subjective, are extremely well reasoned. Great job.
a 258 era+ in a year with a league wide sub 3 era is insane, Bob gibsons 1968 was amazing even with the context of the season
Finally Pedro gets his due at number 1. He could come in today and dominate if he were in his 20s. Amazing pitcher amazing mechanics and pitches.
“Come in and dominate today”
You say that as if today’s hitters are better than the ones Pedro faced.
Kershaw is so great his post season choke stuff is blow up , he’s had some great playoff games as well as his bad games he had a great 2020 post season and had a great 2017 game one Snd was having a great game 5 till cheating . Kershaw is best at run prevention which is what it’s all about and he ate innings thank you for putting him on here
Love how knowledgeable and passionate you both are. Keep it up!
Satchel Paige pitched 50 years. I saw Bob Gibson pitch a lot, he belongs on the list. An amazing competitor. He was a Very scary guy every four games.
Satchel Paige isn't on the list because this list because it is only the 'modern' era.
The fact Paige did well in the MLB well into his 40s tell us he would have absolutely dominated baseball.
Segregation robbed us of seeing Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson play atbthe highest level.
In September 1965, he threw 3 innings for the Athletics against the Red Sox. He faced Yastrzemski among others. Seems to be modern to me.. ..I was alive at least, so maybe antique modern?
It's insane that Steve Carlton is no where to be found on any of these lists (MLB, fan voting or either of the on air personalities)... Look him up, he's easily in the top 9 pitchers in Major League history. No, I'm not saying he's the GOAT, but I truly think that he's the second best LHP since WWII (no disrespect to Seaver, but Carlton was better)
I have no problem at all with Steve Carlton being on someone's Top 9 list, as I mentioned in the video. Certainly one of the best pitchers of all time.
By all measures Tom Seaver was better than Steve Carlton. For starters, just check their head to head records. Seaver 12-3 against Carlton.
I truly wish Carlton had retired after 1984. Playing until 1989 added a 16-36 record to his resume and upped his ERA badly.
I like Carlton, too, but c'mon. He was not better than Seaver.
@@venalleader2909bad as some of seavers teams were carltons phillies were worse and he still eked out wins. Made his teams better
I think one guy who wasn't mentioned who should get some love is Juan Marichal. 2.89 career ERA, always won a bunch of games, could strike guys out, great control. He always seems to get overlooked
Seen some old Satchel Paige videos on you tube and it made me absolutely love his pitching style. I played on a crap mound with a hole in middle of mound & only way I could pitch was off right side of rubber. Made it harder for right hand hitters to see the ball. Going to switch to left side when facing a left handed batter see how it works this year. Still an old 44 year old man playing in a 18 & over league
While ranking pitchers across eras is hard, I think we can all agree that Ichiro is the true hit king! :)
Very enjoyable. Had to be hard to leave off the likes of Jim Palmer, Don Drysdale, Steve Carlton but I don't disagree with your picks.
People could say Gibson had an easier environment but he would take losses after throwing the first nine innings scoreless. He would commonly pitch in extras whilst giving 3 runs or less. He had 9 world series complete games in a consecutive span. Also two games with 10Ks, a game with 13Ks, and a World Series record 17Ks in one game during the 9 consecutive complete games. Easily in the top 7 pitchers since having close to 60 complete games in 2 seasons is insane
LOL an easier environment. People saying that are insane. He pitched in a time of horrible open racism and no doubt under death threats from the repugnant amongst us. He also pitched to batters who didn't strike out 100 times in 200 AB's. No clue what morons means by easier environment.
If we’re talking 1947 & after I’ll have to go
1. Pedro
2. Randy
3. Maddux
4. Clemens
5. Koufax
6. Kershaw
7. Mariano
8. Seaver
9. Scherzer
Wish I could put Nolan but realistically he’s top 15-20
The thing that killed me was Gaylord Perry on the 75+ game score list. Whaaaaat?!? I feel like he just snuck up behind me and gave me a wet-willie with some icy-hot.
He might not be a top 10 pitcher ever but to me Justin Verlander is highly underrated
●The last pitcher to win MVP
● Cy youngs
●multiple time world series
champion
● career 3.24 ERA
● 3,346 strikeouts (and counting)
Sure 1st ballot hall of famer type of resume
Man... Tom Seaver from '67 to '78 was great. That's 12 seasons of sustained greatness. Clemens was great from '86 to '92, and then had four meh seasons until he joined the Canseco-tainted Blue Jays and the writing is on the wall with that.
Kershaw IS a post-season legend. His post-season choking is legendary, truly so.
Pedro Martinez is the GOAT imo 🐐
This kinda stuff ALWAYS creates controversy. So many tops talents get left out.
Love the inclusion of Sandy! I'm Jewish and the fact that he took the World Series off to celebrate Yom Kippur (one of our two most important holidays) means more than I can say
Because of that, there were many Koufax fans, that weren't even baseball fans.
List is shit if Nolan Ryan is not top 2. Idk or understand how he is overlooked on a lot of these lists. He’s numero uno for me
You’re entitled to be wrong.
As a lifelong Braves fan love some Maddux, pefect control, also fortunate to see the Big Unit's perfect game against the Braves, awesome watching fans realize what was going on and applauding him. Pedro most dominant in my youmg life of 46 years. Would have loved to see older guys on the list. If Sandy Kofax could have played longer would have been top 3!
Was there in Atlanta for Big Units perfect game .Awesome Spectacular Memories
If you’re going back to Koufax and Gibson, what about Juan Marichal? Don Drysdale? Tom Seaver? Kershaw vs Seaver?
Yes, especially Marichal.
Blylevin probably deserves a mention -- one of only four modern era guys w/ both a top-five all time RA9-WAR and fWAR.
The other three are Clemens, Maddux, and Johnson.
Surprised you guys left Bert Blyleven off this list. Not to mention Gaylord Perry and Steve Carlton...
It's incredible how one playoff game has changed the narrative of Kershaws career! He could be number 1.
I agree, I feel like the problem with Kershaw is that he would never change his approach in the postseason, everyone knew he was going to be throwing first pitch strikes so they just ambushed him hoping to get lucky and it worked, also a lot of times he’d be doing great but was left in too long. I’m not sure some of the other pitchers on this list would fare as good against today’s competition.
It’s not just one playoff game, it’s his postseason career as a whole. The numbers aren’t great, but he still deserves to be on here for his dominance in the regular season in his Era.
@@thekingofpingas Kershaw 12-12; Maddox 11-14; Ryan 2-2! The competition is just a little bit better! Oh Koufax 0.95 World Series ERA!
@@SonicCollectionsPS2Noisesz are you including in Kershaws ERA game 5 vs Houston? Take away those runs and see where his ERA is? Post season stats are crazy - two innings changed everything! He had many quality starts in "must win" games! Take away 7 earned runs against a team who knew every pitch!!
@@SonicCollectionsPS2Noisesz understand! Where are the good, clutch performances? We know he has 12 playoff losses.
This just made me think for the first time about today’s pitchers, and their chances of getting in with how few innings a lot of them throw. What will their stats look like at the end of their career? Or will this make more HoF players because era’s and other stats looking better because of the shorter outings? It definitely makes a lot of records permanent unless things go back, and nothing ever takes a step back, even if it’s for its own good.
one thing about Pedro he wont necessarily peak but he was still damn good his first year with Mets. people often forget this because but the injuries really started in year 2. In year one he had ERA+ 146 in 31 starts. Led the league in WHIP with under 1. He wasn't peak so his K/9 was down but his WHIP and H/9 rivaled some of his best Boston years. Threw a couple of 1 hitters with the Mets. I know why its rightfully overshadowed by his peak but as a Mets fan I remember fondly Pedro time with Mets.
I think Mariano Rivera, even though he was a closer, deserves a longer look
But the lust is for😢 starters.
I choose Greg Maddux as the best because not only could he pitch but he was an elite fielder and could hit as well. Of course Pedro and Randy were fantastic but to me Maddux was the best
Roger Clemens is the mark McGuire of pitching. Yes! Love Tom Seaver!
I wish I got the chance to watch even just one of these guys in their peaks.
Thank you Rob, I like this kind of program, is always difficult to define the ranking.
In my opinion one of the least talked about primes of a pitcher has to be Denny McLain. I mean his 1968 barley gets talked about because of how good bob Gibsons was but I mean man a 154 era+ and to maintain that while throwing 336 innings and also with 31 wins. Is crazy in my opinion.
Pedro 1999 all star game. Every game he started for that matter was must watch t.v.
Roy Halladay 6.9 K/9, nice.
I’ll take Steve Carlton over Ryan.
Go kick rocks
No argument
I wonder if we may be going too far the other way in judging Sandy Koufax? No, I don't agree with him being the Best Pitcher in the Integration Era (Randy Johnson is my own personal choice not just because I saw him win his 300th in person, but just because he has so many fantastic seasons outside of his seven-year peak). However, I do think that it's also ludicrous putting him down near ninth. Yeah, his bWAR isn't all that impressive, but you do have to consider the fact that it gets dragged down by his abysmal hitting stats, and if you isolate his pitching stats he'd be much better suited for where Ninja ranked him.
And I have no idea how Bob Gibson missed the Prime 9 list. I do feel that Warren Spahn got an "OMG lookit da winz" bump.
These are in no specific order, as I did not put on anyone who is still active. I also left off someone like Spahn who played before the 1950’s so he should be put with the classic era pitchers of the early 20th century list.
Sandy Koufax
Bob Gibson
Steve Carlton
Tom Seaver
Nolan Ryan
Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
For anyone to leave Steve Carlton off their list is baffling. I almost feel that people forget how great he was, as he was the last pitcher to pitch regularly on 3 days rest (into the 80’s). He had 4 Cy Young Awards, 2 World Series Rings, 329 Wins, 4,000+ strikeouts, and that 1972 season is just as good as Gibson’s 1968 season (Carlton was on a last place team and still won 27 games).
As for Clemens, he definitely deserves to be on the list. But he was juicing as people forget the RedSox let him go in 1996 because it looked like he was past his prime. Then he goes to Toronto and all of the sudden is this dominant pitcher again? He was best friends with Pettite and Pettite admitted to steroids. You don’t think they were both juicing together? Also, he got steroids shipped to his house under his wife’s name, as you really think she was juicing? I love Clemens and he was dominant in his day, but there is no doubt he was juicing from 1997 to when he retired.
If I were doing this exercise, I'd be looking at sustained greatness. How many years was a pitcher great? That, to me, doesn't necessarily penalize a pitcher for an early career end or some post-prime lacklustre years. I guess you could call that 'peak', but I don't think of it like that. I think of it as a player being sustainably great. Peak is a different deal. Like 'peak' Nolan Ryan was 72-74 with the Angels, but man... 1975-1992 were also versions of good to great. That's amazing.
As far as Koufax's Cy Young titles, keep in mind, at that time, there was only one winner, for both leages.
The fact that you listed Nolan Ryan this low…… lost me…. I am afraid to see who you rated higher
Imagine if Koufax had lasted as long as Nolan Ryan…
Warren Spahn: "Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting timing." - something has been lost in the last few decades on how to play baseball, every time I hear about some rookie that throws 100mph I think they should take bets on when his first Tommy John will be.
They are taught to do that too, it don't make sense to me @@SonicCollectionsPS2Noisesz
Putting Pedro above Maddux seems wrong. Maddux had 5000 innings under his belt, compared to Pedro's 2800. Maddux essentially threw 11 more seasons of baseball than Martinez. On top of all of that he was one of the best defensive players of all time.
@29:13 is the most ridiculous strike ever. He swung to save his own life and avoid getting hit by that pitch that seemed to heat-seek him hahahaha
how is steve carlton not on any of these lists?!?
I was wondering the same.
I spent $400 to watch Kersh hang a 6-spot before I finished my hotdog in the NLDS G1, so bear that in mind. No joy there.
A great pitcher is one who can pitch himself OUT of bad spots. Can’t count the times I’ve seen Kersh w loaded bases & 1 or no outs rise up and smoke the last batters to walk back unscathed. THAT is a factor rarely considered when evaluating great pitchers. 🤷♂️
@pitchingninjas Can you guys do a break down of 2005 White Sox pitching staff during the playoffs and World Series? I would love to hear some intelligent conversations on one of the most incredible performances of my lifetime.
Pedro was APPOINTMENT viewing during those summers. APPOINTMENT
Pedro faced batters in the steroid Era and came out on top
But Nolan faced hitters in an Era with Pete Rose, Ricky Henderson, Bo Jackson, Barry bonds and countless other skilled and scary hitters
Ask hankaaron and norm cash trying to hit ryan. Theyre on video. RIP BOTH
Great list! I'd probably put King Felix on my list at 9 or 10 but can't argue with the picks. Bob Gibson might be higher on my list, he was my Dad's favorite player growing up. Johnson would be my #1, he was a thrill to watch in person and he lasted so long. Other than that awesome discussion of some true greats.
If you're looking at Felix, Johan Santana has a better resume. Santana is not that different from Koufax as a comp, other than postseason stats, just because the Twins stunk during his career. Johan fell off the HOF ballot after one year, so I don't think he deserves to be in the top 9.
@@stevendeckert6373saw felix in the rain in boston. Fantasic
Nolan Ryan is Numero Uno! The Best!
Unless you look at his stats
I know relievers are different, but Mariano Rivera is so far ahead of everyone else that he deserves consideration.
205 ERA+ is best all time by 41 points (min 1000 IP). He threw basically the same number of innings as deGrom. He has the "legend" factor. Greatest postseason pitcher of all time without question. And did it with one pitch; everyone in the stadium knew what was coming and they still couldn't hit him.
That's why a Top 9 Closers of all time would really be a Top 8. There's no argument that Mariano wasn't the greatest.
too bad they didn't put him in the rotation.
In terms of currently playing pitchers, I’d put Scherzer over Kershaw.
Kershaw is way better than Scherzer
For this conversation, let's compare Koufax' '62-66 seasons to Pedro's best seasons during his dominant period (1997, 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2002).
Koufax' best WHIP was .875 in 1963; Pedro's was .737 in 2000. Koufax' best ERA+ was 190 in 1966; Pedro's was 291 in 2000. During the periods of dominance, Koufax had an ERA+ over 200 zero times, while Pedro had an ERA+ over 200 four times from 1997-2002. Koufax had a WHIP below 1.000 four times, Pedro five.
As someone from the DR, yes Pedro was better but remember, Koufax was playing sick with a degenerative problem, he retired at 30, and even with that he was a beast, just for that Koufax is better. When injuries started to attack Pedro we al notice he's declination.
Spahn had a lower K rate than anyone on your lists, but *compared to league average* he had a slightly higher K rate than Maddux.
Still would barely miss my top 9, but he did strike out more batters than the average pitcher of his time.
Spahn actually led the league in K's 4 times. Add in 92.4 WAR with 3 4+ WAR seasons in his 40's and there is a pretty compelling argument to be made for him.
@@jamesspanglet6702 good hitter, too.
K-rate and spin-rate are on the tier of wins, theyre cool numbers but there are a ton of other factors that make a pitcher effective
@@VinceWhitacre .287 OBP is solid for a pitcher. Check out his 195 batting stats.
I would sub out Warren Spahn for Kershaw. He had 150 more wins than Kershaw, after fighting in WWII for several years.
Two thoughts: MLB leaving Bob Gibson off is insane. I’m really thankful that I was able to watch Pedro pitch. I was 13 years old at that All Star Game in Boston. 🥹🥰
I would put Sandy first. I think when you consider how poorly he was handled by the Dodgers after being signed at 17, the scope of his career is more complex. They had to keep him on the 40man roster because of the old rules and so he wasn’t developed properly and he permanently injured himself overthrowing before his career really began. He would later pitch all those great seasons through untold pain. The end result was a press conference at 30 years old at which he said goodbye to the game. He left with such enormous grace and class and fortified the notion that walking away in one’s prime is clear and present wisdom.
His 4 no-hitters are probably an equal accomplishment to Ryan’s 7. His World Series starts were simply astonishing, often closing out series on short rest. He K’d 15 at Yankees in the Bronx against a lineup that included Mantle. It was a shutout rewarded by a standing ovation from YANKEE FANS.
His refusal to pitch on his sabbath shouldn’t be overlooked. He put higher meaning before sports.
All the old timers and lifers who saw him thought him the greatest there ever was, and so did all the young players that faced him and were able to compare him against everyone who came thereafter. There was nearly 100 years of intimate baseball consciousness believing him to be above all others. Casey Stengel was the first to publicly declare him the best. “You can forget about the other fella (meaning Johnson). You can forget Waddell. The Jewish kid is the best of all of them.” - Casey Stengel on Sandy Koufax.
Al Campanis said there were two times in life during which all his hair stood on end. Once when he saw the Sistine Chapel. The other was when he saw a 17 year old Koufax throw a baseball.
At 50 he was throwing batting practice for the Dodgers and was asked to stop by the manager when it was discovered that the players couldn’t hit him.
Until very recently, he was the only one to throw an immaculate inning 3 times. The newest pitchers to do it need to be discounted because of the prevalence of Ks in today’s game.
As a dodgers fan, I can’t help but think that if the 2017 WS went the other way the sentiment around Kershaw would be different.
I like the list but probably would have put Roy Halladay instead of Kershaw. As you say its hard to argue with Kershaw regular season stats but Halladay does have multiple Cy Youngs and the magical postseason run.
Mike has me reexamining Gaylord Perry and holy smokes, he really is underrated
Unfortunately he admitted and almost flaunted he doctored the ball, and that’s the first thing many think of him and his legacy.
Ummm, how is Steve Carlton not on here???
I mean... Spahn was objectively good to great from '46-'63. That's nuts. 17 years of being a premier pitcher. I think that's why MLB put them where they have him.
Carleton, Palmer, Ford and Marichal are 4 who could/should be on this list. Carleton is an obvious snub.
Where would you guys put Halladay?
Nolan was a warrior
Pedro❤
I don't quite understand why Tom Seaver is rated so much higher than Jim Palmer. The two had extremely similar run prevention through the whole of the 1970s... Just WAR seems to favor Seaver a lot more (I assume due to the much lower FIP).
If Seaver is top 5, I can't see how Palmer isn't.
Palmer was a great pitcher but also had a much better defense behind him than Seaver and pitched on better teams overall. Also he wasn’t a real strikeout pitcher and gave up a decent amount of walks for a guy who wasn’t a strikeout pitcher. It’s a matter of opinion obviously (and not being in the top 9 doesn’t mean you’re not great) but that’s why. Lots of discussion here. www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/17h8qvx/why_does_tom_seaver_have_so_much_more_war_than/#
@@PitchingNinjaVideos I'm just trying to figure out the rationale is all. Obviously both are all time greats and I wouldn't take away from either of them. Trying to find a top 9 is ridiculously difficult and I dunno how I'd even go about it. These top 9 do feel right, though I'd probably swap Ryan out for Carlton. I feel like either or can be there. I'd definitely have Ryan at 10 though.
Orel Hershiser was basically unhittable for about 4 straight years in the 80s.
It’s crazy to not have Steve Carlton on this list
Carlton was great. Easy to say that but who would you drop?
If you knock any modern pitchers for steroids, how much do you knock hitters in the 50s, 60s, 70s for greenies?
Yeah there really is no one bad on this list, hard to argue with any of them. Just curious how far off would you consider Steve Carlton, he has to be close if not quite making the list.
You have to include Ryan. He pitched in 4 decades and the 7 no hitters will never be topped.
And you could even have a band named “Nolan Ryan!”
Seaver is #1 in my book
1. Nolan Ryan
2. Bob Gibson
3. Tom Seaver
4. Warren Spahn
5. Randy Johnson
6. Steve Carlton
7. Sandy Kofax
8. Pedro Martinez
9. Greg Maddox
top pitchers for me:
1)clemens
2)maddux
3)pedro
4)randy
5)ryan
5)pascual perez
7)jose lima- lima time- believe it
8)anyone drafted by the expos in the 80's and 90's (including outfielders)
9)john rocker
10)juan agosto/bob knepper/danny darwin (im torn)
Jim Palmer is top
10 to me
Pedro was also allowed to throw at people on purpose and the batter would be reprimanded for getting mad. He could throw inside without worry of being ejected. He was protected unlike any pitcher I ever watched.
even in Montreal before he was a star??? he threw inside then in the NL when he had to hit...
Comment is absurd.
@@pickettmandi Look at the difference between how Schilling was treated and Pedro when a batter was hit. Same team and same catcher. They didn’t immediately jump on the batter when Schilling hit someone.
@@jondukes7025 He pitched the same way in the national league when he had to bat.
Randy Johnson #1
While I agree that Bob Gibson was great, I would have Warren Spahn in the lower part of the list instead of Gibson. The 363 wins and 13 20 win seasons by Spahn are undeniable.
I agree that Tom Seaver is underrated. He and Nolan Ryan were my favorite pitchers in my childhood. A way to look at it is Greg Maddux is Tom Seaver with less gas and Roger Clemens is Tom Seaver with more gas. I would bet Seaver was one of their idols too.
No mention of Jim Palmer?
Guess Satchel was too far back? Or not as easy to confirm with validatable stats?
Too far back. He'd definitely be on a list of all time great pitchers, if we included other eras
Satchel, despite being around post-integration, doesnt have a ton of footage confirming his dominance and the league where he set the most records was considered a barnstormer league for much of its existence.
Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Christy Mathewson, and Addie Joss have similar significance as legends but definitely arent "modern era".
Patrick Corbin?
He just missed lol
Any list that doesn’t include Bob Gibson isn’t worth anyone’s time.
Son caballos caballos !! 🐴🐴🐴 superstars!
Strike zone also changed cause Gibson
I know it’s hard to put him on there because of all the injuries but I think peak DeGrom has to be an honorable mention