How to get feedback out of choir mics
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- čas přidán 17. 09. 2019
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Watch live while I use an RTA to help cut the feedback from choir mics!
Update: I posted a short clip of the actual performance on my Facebook Page. Be sure to like and follow me there, too! / 516683272225309 - Věda a technologie
I uploaded a short clip of the actual performance on my facebook page! Check the description above for a link
1990's awesomeness! Great is He, We Exalt Your Name, Lord I lift your name on high..... Now that was a worship era to remember! Great job.
Thanks! My phone ran out of space before they could get to the Ihopkc classics 😭
Attaway Audio Yes we have choir mics and I just can’t seem to get this one mic to stop having a static like sound. Any suggestions to how to fix it?
Some people don't know how to teach, but you have a natural gift to explain things well! Well done, love learning from you!
Thanks! Thank you for serving on your sound team!
❤️❤️
You’re walking in the Lord’s timing!! Lol
We had choir this past Sunday and I used this! Thank you for your sensitivity to the Spirit, sound pastor.
Amazing! The Lord works in mysterious ways. Because I definitely didn’t plan the timing of having a choir either 😂
I love how you use SMAART to visually point out these trouble frequencies and explain clearly each step that you are doing as you are doing it. I tend to keep use graphic EQs for outputs (FoH, Wedge) not inputs (mics) but I see whatchya doin! Definitely subscribing!
Thanks James, I'm a corporate AV specialist but I still need to understand all the basic nuances of production AV so you're helping me a lot! I really appreciate it!
Iv always had problems with the choir mics. This just opens up. Whole new world to me
Careful - you might trigger someone's musical Tourette's
Dank je wel voor alle tips welke U geeft. Ik heb helaas niet zo'n mooie mengpaneel als de uwe ter beschikking en ik treedt niet op in zo'n grote hallen maar dank zij uw uw aanwijzingen ook van uw andere video's kan ik met onze apparatuur veel beter geluid produceren dan voorheen met beduidend veel minder feedback. U doet het prachtig voor en legt het zeer duidelijk de materie uit. Mijn oprechte dank hiervoor.
Thank you for the kind comment Rob! Glad you're getting better!
This is incredible!!! I've never seen this before! I'm a choir teacher trying to run sound and this is a huge tip. Thank you!
God bless the choir teachers. My high school choir teacher is the person who introduced me to musicality in phrasing, and it stuck with me through many albums of vocal production.
Thanks for sharing! Great tips. I like that you explained what to do if you don't have the time to ring everything out.
Hey that’s reality. You don’t always get all the time you need #realworld
just getting back into sound. Love these new digital mixers. I used to bring the system up to the brink of feedback and then move across the GEQ boosting each freq. to find the hot ones, and then cut those..... this capability is way better!!!! channel PEQ for the win!!!! Thanks for this demo.
You're welcome! Nothing like ringing out feedback with a room full of people (working, obvs.) AND doing a live video!
What a great video. Thank you for perfect and amazing points .
great info. excited to hear the fruits of your labor tomorrow!
Me too! But ssshhhhh! It's a secret 😂
Thanks , going to need this for our Christmas special this weekend 🎄
It's definitely tricky. Let me know how it goes/went!
Very good information thank You for what you do
Thank you so much sir for your packaged information.
Awesome vid. Always easy to follow you.Thanks.
Thanks Vince! 🙌🏼
This was so helpful man thank you!
You’re very welcome Brec!
Best knowledge for pro audio on whole you tube!!
🙌🙌🙌
I‘ve a lot of methods to elevate feedback of choir Mic. You have a natural db limit.
The most feedback come from Monitors
1. To get no choir mics to Monitor.
2. If it is possible you can work with In ear Monitoring.
3. Or you give Dynamic mics for the 4 Voice Soprano Alt, Tenor for the best singers to get only to the Monitor.
4. Look for the room, what is possible to Place the front. Eventually work with delay Lines.
5. Sometimes it is helpful to work with compressor. But you must have experience.
6. You can cross the Pan. Left Mics to Right Boxes.
7. To work with feedback eliminator. This is like make in the video manually.
8. Look to decorate the wall, and didn‘t have no hard walls.
9. Eventually work with Gate, to reduce the open mics.
All this steps are first to to until you eliminate Feedback manually. The feedback Frequences changes with temperature. With people full room. Mostly it will be better. But you must have headroom of loudness. For Soundcheck in an empty Room, you must have 30% more loudness in a full people room.
I‘ll hope with this tips you have a well concert.
God bless you.
Thanks for the pointers. I hadn't thought of 6) "crossing the pans"... That makes a lot of sense.
Thank you so much - this demonstration is very clear!
What are you thoughts if our church only has some spare Beta 58s (dynamics...) to do a spaced pair for choir in front of the main speakers?
Thanks for video! Helpful tips! Newbie question: how do you adjust Gain for choir mics?
Thanks for this! X-FDBK is good for this too.
That was great. Thank you
Wow this is a big help! Just wish I would’ve discovered it long ago lol
Fanstastic! I have to get an RTA corresponding somehow to my analogue mixer...
If you have an iPhone I found an app called sonic tools. It is not even close to smart in any way but I was able to use it to do this with out an rta. It works the same in a very rudimentary way.
You are a good tutor. I see you are for guys who already know about mixing live sound.What is the name of that spectrum screen? Big up.
Super helpful!
Amazing tutorials, well done sir. However, I want to know how do you setup up Smaart with a digital console and with an analog console. Please do a step by step tutorial on how to connect, setup and configure Smaart with a digital console and an analog console. Thanks
Have you seen this video? czcams.com/video/B5j9t1JwfJ4/video.html
Like a boss! Plenty of gain feedback under control!
Thanks man! It’s so fun to get it that loud 😀
Awesome!!! Thank you!!!
You're welcome!
I'll take that mic placement any time. I have 2 suspended over our choir loft but the loft is on the left side of the array and somewhat out front. I've rung these things out over an over but I still can't get much gain into them unless I pan it more to the right side. Unfortunately there's no moving the choir. Any suggestions would be great. Thanks for the videos...they help greatly.
Thanks James
So helpful! Thanks!!
You're welcome Mike! Thanks for watching!
Thanks for this video sir
You’re welcome Veerababu!
One issue I ran across with our choir mics is that once each mic was rung out and I turned them all back on, I was getting feedback on frequencies that I had reduced on some of the mics. Our eight choir mics were acting as an array. (It's clear the architect of our worship center didn't know much about acoustics.) My solution was to zero the mics back out and tune them together. I found that when I started to get a frequency feeding back, I could usually turn off a couple of mics and turn down the frequencies on those mics. The next frequencies I would find a couple of different mics to turn down. I a frequency came back at a higher level, I would have to find a couple of different mics and turn them down part way. I went through this going back and adjusting which mics were taking care of which frequencies in order to optimize frequencies for the different parts of the choir. That's probably not the solution everyone needs, but if you are having a problem turning all the mics on after having rung out each one, consider treating them as an array.
My explanation for how an array works in feedback: take two microphones in an array. Mic A hears a resonant frequency in its part of the room, but doesn't hear it coming back from the mains. However, Mic B hears the frequency in the mains and feeds it back into the system. Reducing the frequency in either mic will eliminate the feedback. Just multiply this dynamic by however many mics you are using to cover an area, and you have a fairly complex system. Do you use less mics each covering a greater area, or more mics each covering a smaller area? In the first scenario, more gain will lead to more feedback. In the second scenario, more mics will lead to more feedback. You just have to play with it to get into a sweet spot.
Another way to try this would be to EQ each individually, and then make a group to EQ out the frequencies that would bump up from the combination. Each time you add a mic, you add to the total gain, so it makes sense that there would be additional freq's that want to ring.
@@AttawayAudio Thanks! I'll have to try that. It's not as easy to do on our current board, but we are due for an upgrade and the system our consultant recommends would do this pretty easily. We use so many mics to combat the room's drawbacks, and use Astatic variable polar pattern mics to narrow the area each mic covers. That helps out some, plus alternating polarity and panning troublesome mics away from the side they are closest to. I'm using every trick I know and I'm open to tricks I don't know yet.
Did you route your smaart to the console or was the signal going to smart from a microphone?
What did you have the gain on the mics set to? We have hanging chior mics that I'm struggling to get volume out of.
Do you have a link to the smart plugin? You may want to add it to the description. Also, your website "about us" and blog are both down.
Also, have you heard of using choir mic's for congregation mic's? Is that a bad Idea?
Hey man this is very helpful. Just a quick question. Are you EQing the mic channel or the monitor channel?
How high do you low cut choir mics? I used this trick with an rta app on my phone and already has made a huge difference. I’m micing a K thru 8th grade chorus so it doesn’t even have to sound good. I just need it to not feed back! Thanks for this video James, four years later it’s still helping.
200 Hz is a good starting place. Move it up until it sounds thin, then back it off.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. I have had allot of trouble with choir mics. Our church has Shure SM81s which are recommended for choirs by Shure. I have tried multiple methods and cannot seem to get enough signal to mix the room properly. It's just weak. The SM81s just always seem weak. I have the mics set at 0 DB (no pad) and used the 18 DB high pass filter roll off setting. I was able to set gain very high and used your method of ringing out the mics, which I like better than scrolling with the parametric EQ points. What mics are you using, do they have integral pre-amps built in? They sure sound great in the choir video. I am miking a 15 person choir, two rows deep, 7 in front and 8 behind staggered. Shure says to use three mics at six feet apart, two feet from the from singers (3 to 1 rule). Our budget will not allow for different mics at this point. Suggestions for better signal levels at the mixer?
For now, just forget about the 3:1 rule. Place 2 mics at the 1/3 point of the choir, and back it up JUST enough so the person who's right in front of it isn't louder than everyone else.
Great vid. Thank you. What brand/model console are you using?
Also have you used any of the Lake eq’s?? They work very well
Hey thanks! I haven’t used the Lake EQs before, I’ll have to check them out! The console I’m on is the SSL L200
Sir do you place mic towards pa and cutting feedback? Or where do u place it
Thank you for the video! Did you EQ directly on the mics Equalizers or on the EQ for the speaker? Also, do you do the same on the lead?
I put the EQ on the mic channels that were most likely to feed back, so just the choir mics. If I did have a lead vocal mic that was prone to feedback, I'd try the steps in this other video first, and then, if all that didn't work, I'd do the process above for that mic. But that should only be one or two frequencies if everything else is working properly. czcams.com/video/X0sf2ZuQKGM/video.html
James thanks a lot for the video! Can you indicate some mic models to be used with choir in church?
Depends on your budget! DPA is amazing, but Shure makes some good ones too
great video! How much is the preamp gain turned up on the choir mics so that you can effectively ring them out?
Thanks Andreas! The gain is turned up until... it feeds back. You want as much gain as you can get, and with sensitive mics near the front of the PA, it's not going to need much before it starts to ring. Gain is gain, no matter which stage it comes from.
Thank you, Sir, 😇🙏🌺
😇🌺🙏
Hi. Nice video and well explained, but If you use the peq to avoid feedbacks....what do you use to eq their voices?
If you choose the right mic and put it in the right spot, it's likely it won't need much EQ. I talk about that more in this video here: czcams.com/video/puPgZ3f8VWc/video.html
Hello! say you do on the master channel?
Thank you very much for this video, the question i have is; is this the same as vocal eq?
Not exactly. You're just trying to get it to not feed back. Choir mics are supposed to just sound good, honestly.
Or on the input channel of the microphone?
THANKYOU VERY MUCH
You're welcome Shaiju!
Hi James - is their a live stream I can watch of the service with the choir and band? Thanks
Also. To tune out frequencies. Do you select each mic and use its own RTA to show. Or a over all RTA for the whole sanctuary?
No I just have a single mic at FOH feeding the RTA
one by one equing right thanks
In my church every Christmas we have a big musical with choir, vocals, band and a big orchestra! It's very challenging to put the choir in the front mix without feedback! And they still need monitors!! Witch mics you use for choir?
I typically reach for a small diaphragm condenser, and the flatter the response, and the more off-axis rejection (and smoother off-axis rejection) the better. If the choir sounds good, and the mic sounds transparent, you won't have to use EQ bands to fix the tonality. The ones in this video were some Audix miniatures that I found... not even sure of the model. 🤷♂️
Hello. Do you do this thing on the microphone channel eq or on the master eq? do you eliminate problematic frequencies with the soloist's microphone or the small rta on the master? thanks
I try to make my EQ as non-destructive as possible, so I EQ individual channels first, then maybe group them to EQ some more if I have to, and then POSSIBLY EQ the main output, but I try to avoid that
How often do you ring out your mics
Where is the mic pre set to on each channel?
Hi! Can I ask what app are you using on your PC?
Hello! I was wondering if these frequencies need to be adjusted every Sunday? Our church is pretty small and the mics and speakers don't move much do you think we will have to do this process every Sunday?
No, but changes in temp/humidity might make things change.
only question I have is how did you set the pre amp before raising the faders and ringing the mics out.?
As I'm starting, I put the fader around -5 or -10 or so and roll up the preamp til it starts to feed back. As I get rid of more frequencies, I'll push up the fader more. Gain before feedback doesn't care if the gain comes from the fader or the preamp, and if you know where the highest point you can put your fader before it feeds back, that'll help you adjust your whole mix around that element to keep it from feeding back, but stay in front
helpful thank you
You're welcome Shiji!
Sorry if I'm wrong but isn't graphic eq in essense a parametric eq but with fixed state? And those other bell shaped ones are state variable but both are parametric...
A graphic EQ is in essence a fixed bandwidth, fixed point EQ. But if you're not careful, there can be phase shifts between the bands (that's how EQ does its job - it varies the phase for that frequency to cancel it out some or cause constructive interference). So if your graphic EQ is has too much change between two bands, it can cause phase issues and make it sound weird. Parametric EQs can be smoother phase-wise. And on the SSL, the parametric EQ has such fine controls, I could really dial in what exact frequency it is, much closer than I could with a 1/3 -octave graphic EQ.
Thanks!!
You bet! 🙏🏼
Hi! Thanks for the tutorial! How much you hipass mics?
For choirs that don't have bass singers, you can go up to about 200 Hz without any repercussions. But definitely play with it and see if that makes it too thin and back it off.
What is the freqency of your HPF?
Great video! Just curious, what mics were you using?
Two were some audix condensers, and I don't remember the other two
Question for Attaway Audio: Can you use the spectrogram to remove frequencies that create feedback to vocal and instrument mics as well as choir mics? Is this good practice or no? I typically reduce 350 - 400Hz & 1,200 - 1,400Hz on vocals since those are frequencies that can get obnoxious. Which is better practice or both?
Great video! I have a question: Once we scooped those frequencies do we keep everything as it is or we do boost (EQ)other freqs to eq vocals or any other source?
I typically don't boost again in live sound. If I'm EQing surgically in the studio and notch something out in a similar fashion, you can add a wide boost at the same spot to "make up" for what you cut out.
@@AttawayAudio Thank you! Keep it up!
Hi i follow ur great videos ..got some questions..1. Do u perform this step after calibre the pre amp level ?
2. Is it the same mic ringing after cutting the feedback frequency, if so why a single mic has multiple feedback frequencies ?
3. Whats da software used for the spectrum analysis ,or its built in for mixer ...Thanks
1. I do it as I’m setting my mic pre levels, because I want my fader to live around 0 with a few more dB of headroom before it rings. This way I know visually how far I have before it’ll feedback. So the steps go hand-in-hand.
2. Every mic will have more than one frequency that will feed back, but you start with the “loudest” one, and pull it down, and then you can push the level up further to get to the next one, and turn that down. You have to get one out of the way before you can isolate the next one. At least if you’re working methodically.
3. This program is Smaart by Rational Acoustics. But a bunch of mixers have an RTA built-in to the EQ screen, which is SUPER helpful.
Thanks for the questions Indika!
@@AttawayAudio thanks for taking time to answer my questions and it was really helpful 😎
Thanks a lot
You bet!
dang it. I really could have used this video on Christmas eve a few days ago 🙈
Do a video on crowed and ambience mic with differences in sound with different mic placement.
Thx.
Sounds like a great topic! Thanks Diego!
Attaway Audio
Yes it is. That is what im currently working on that at my church. Trying to balance both for musicians and broadcast feed and along with what eq or Processing. Just curious what your input is
Love all the content
Thx.
D’oh! I used a graphic eq 😅 wished I would’ve seen this video sooner. Next time I’ll use the parametric eq.
Either one works, and that’s the important part. Everything else is baby steps to better quality
I am just awed by how narrow that EQ can go. Can i get that narrow on a Midas M32?
Yeah it’s really surgical! That’s one of the things you get when you buy a more expensive board... much more expensive 😬 the M32 is great, but it’s eq doesn’t go that narrow
What were you using to capture the signals, an output from the mixer or an rta mic out in foh
RTA mic at FOH... but either one works
Hey what happens now that you used all yr bands and now dont have any more bands for TONAL BALANCE
Use a great mic in the right spot so you don't need to. Or you can bus them all together and use the EQ on the bus.
Great content, I really enjoy your videos, but something is bugging me about this one, since you use the parametric eq of each mic to get rid of the feedback and they are limited, then you cannot eq the mics, am I correct? Is this part of the compromise or you have a solution for that? I'll be waiting for more videos :D
Great observation! Yes, using the channel’s parametric EQ limits what I can do to EQ the signal musically, but the key here is to choose a mic that, without the feedback issues, sounds good on the sound source in the first place. You don’t HAVE to EQ everything just because it’s there 😀
@@AttawayAudio found my answer lol
Where is the gain set before pushing up the fader..? Do you ring out the monitor feedback before the microphone(s) feedback..?
Great question! If I'm doing this before any talent arrives, I may go ahead and set gain by putting the fader at 0 and then rolling up the preamp until I get feedback, notch it, and then keep rolling up the preamp. This way I know that above 0 on the fader is the edge of how loud I can put it, but I'm safe below there. Then if the talent arrives and I need less preamp, I can always turn it down.
Good video
Thanks Vitor! 🙌🏼
I realize that I am watching this 3 years from when you posted the video. I am curious as to what software where you using to show you the frequencies for the choir mics feedback that allowed you to cut those freqs.
Smaart in RTA mode is what's showing me the frequencies.
Hey brother
I wanted to ask which microphones do you recommend for amplifying a children's choir?
Thank you, Ehud
any small diaphragm condenser or a miniature...
@@AttawayAudio thanks you
Just to be clear, are you ringing out the mic channel or the monitor (aux) feed?
The feedback is coming through the main speakers, and I'm EQing the input channels
How were you able to isolate the choir from the full band with the mics and choir where they were located?
Stage is relatively quiet. Amps underneath stage, drums in a cage, no monitor wedges for band.
If I may ask, what do you think about the dbx AFS2? On paper this device should work awesome regaring filtering out nasty frequenties.
I haven't actually used one, but I think it is great, but has its limitations. What if you have 4 mics but only two channels of processing, and each mic feeds back at 3 different frequencies? Eventually it runs out of processing power.
@@AttawayAudio I would use the device as insert processor on a "speech" bus. Sending all the same type of headsets to one of the two inputs. Thanks for your answer.
Isn't that the exact same process for every mic (and not only for choir mocs)? 🤔
When is better to eq monitors beside mics?
Great question! It depends if the feedback is coming from the mics going through the main speakers or the monitors. I try to avoid putting the choir mics in the monitors like the plague, and if it's POSSIBLE use baffles behind (or even above) the choir to help them hear themselves acoustically. But if you have to put the choir mics into the monitors, then you would put the EQ on the monitors themselves, and if you run out of bands and still don't have enough gain before feedback, then go on to EQ the input channels on the mics. Thanks Matheus!
Is it feedbacking on the PA or mons?
Were you applying the EQ to the choir mics or to the wedges?
Thanks for sharing!
It's feeding back through the PA, and I'm putting the EQ on the mics themselves.
@@AttawayAudio great tip but if I am using the bands to ring out, how am I going to EQ the mic if I have no more eq bands to use?
@AttawayAudio What Mics are you using?
Audix SCX-One and some other little Audix mic I found. I’m kinda scrappy, so sometimes I just throw whatever I’ve got up there and make it work 🤷🏻♂️
Thanks for the Video. I have some questions.
1. I Think you cut the frequencies of the microphone channels. Why didnt you cut those frequencies on the monitor channel instead of Microphone channel? Wont that change the Sound of Voice?
2. If there are 3 to for frequencies to be cut. then after using the PEQ how can one EQ the voice to Attenuate or boos some freqiencies of the voice to make it sound sweeter or nicer?
Thanks in Advance
The mics were close to the mains, not the monitors. The narrow cuts don't change the tone much. And hopefully the choir just sounds like they should, and the mics don't have weird tonal things that need correcting, so you don't have to EQ more. If it was a close-mic'd vocal, that's not usually the case.
@@AttawayAudio You mean in case of Close Mic's should we eq the Monitor to Ring out?
How do you use the same Graphic EQ to knockout problematic frequencies and be able to also us it to fine tune the Mics at the same time?
Great question! Beyond changing mics to get the base sound you want without EQ, you could patch in another EQ on the insert from a rack, route them through a group and use EQ on that, or just make a compromise between gain-before-feedback and tone.
Attaway Audio I always wondered how to get both.... Thx much 👍🏾
James, can you explain a bit about what type of input is your SMAART spectograph is reading. Is it channel PFL from the desk or a reference room mic?
In this instance, Smaart has a reference-style mic as the input, but a PFL would work, it just takes an extra step. And I mostly use Smaart while mixing to quickly identity problem frequencies in the room, so the mic is more effective for that
@@AttawayAudio So should you connect the reference mic direct to the PC running Smaart or is patched from the mixing desk? Sorry for the basic questions!
No problem! We have an audio interface with a mic input that feeds the computer, so it doesn’t take any channels or routing on the console. If we were taking a Transform measurement (comparison of signals), then I would route a mono-summed signal from the console to a second input on the interface so they could be compared at the same time.
@@AttawayAudio Thanks James. Just got back from this week's worship rehearsal. What you explained worked a treat!
That’s awesome!!! Way to crush it!
So good. Now I know you have to cut multiple frequencies for feedback, not just one
it's all about how MUCH gain you want/need before it feeds back. If I had those same mics on a loud sound source, and they didn't have to be in front of a loud PA, I might not have to cut all those other frequencies. But I wanted to be able to push those choir mics HOT in front of a big sounding band and a full room of people singing. So I pushed harder and harder to get more gain before it'd feed back.
OTHER QUESTION WHAT IS THE PRICE OF THE MIXER YOU USED
$60-90k depending on the model
Hi from Romania 🇷🇴
Can you explain my you ring out the microphone 🎤 one by one separate?
Thank you 👍
Each one is going to ring at different frequencies, and I want to use the least severe EQ across the board to get the results I want and need.
@@AttawayAudio
Oh ok
Thank you so much.
what I’m doing and I think I did wrong is I am ringing out all the mics together .
an thing I cut too much from the Graphic EQ .
What I understand from you is to ring out the mike one by one.
thank you so much again and God bless you.
What RTA would you recommend as far as an APP, we dont have the set up for SMAART yet and I need to do this on a couple of mics?
Any RTA app can work, but the higher number of bands available means you can be choosier about which exact frequency you're notching out
@@AttawayAudio I found out that our Si Performer isn’t great for notching out frequencies. But thanks to your video I was able to get rid of a couple of feedback frequencies.
attaway is the ringing out done on FOH eq or on the choir mic channel channel eq. thanks
EQ is on the microphone inputs, not the FOH EQ.
@@AttawayAudio will the Equalization not affect the mic output quality? thanks
What about compression on Choir mics/ condensers?
Great question! Compression reduces the dynamic range, which also brings up the noise floor, so on really feedback-prone inputs, I'll just use a touch of compression or limiting to keep the peaks from giving me problems (high threshold, higher ratio), but leave it mostly uncompressed.
Hi Wanna ask. Monitors are Eq d according to Microphone feedback.
What happens to the band (Music) tone. Or you only Eq Vocal Aux?
I put the EQ on the mics, not the speakers, so only those particular inputs are affected. Hopefully the eq notches are narrow enough that it doesn’t affect the tone. Your ear can tolerate a big narrow cut and not notice it
@@AttawayAudio so do you ring out only choirs or do you do it with all other mics as well cause usually while ringing out, one will eq the monitors or mains and not the mics to prevent tonal changes of the source. What is it that you do?
Thanks.