My head cannon was always just the doctor acts how the people acted at the time. Same reason as to why 11, 12 and 13 are very cringy sometimes because they’re sort of mocking us in the current day and age.
True though Moffat himself has actually come out and said he regrets that moment and how comedically he played. Doesn't make the moment any better of course but it is one of the few times he's apologised for a morally questionable decision so it doesn't bug me as much as the Pond Divorce or the Doctor assaulting Jenny in Crimson Horror in which there's been no apology
You're right. It's definitely a poorly framed clap of his hands together. And I also agree that Moffat writes some weird sexualization into his scripts, but this is not one of those times.
13:58 Yeah I hated that as well, it really gave the bowlstreks of the fandom something to work with because it kinda was a random smear against the 1st doctor who was never really openly sexist, actually I remember female companions back then being very active and progressive for the time
nah, wasn't the hands but it wasn't the bum either, Clara/Jenna would've reacted otherwise and by the looks of things even if it was an improv then she should've reacted at least, unless it was a gag between the two off screen and they tried to sneek it in each and every chance they get. *shrugs* who knows
It's definitely hard to tell definitively what's going on in that shot. Someone really oughta ask Matt or Jenna about it at a convention some time so we can hopefully get some closure.
@@un_known5895 I think it's an editing fluff. The Doctor's hand do collide before the sound, I think they put in a stock clap sound effect (it's very common with sound editing, everything from footsteps to sneezes can be added in post production if the recorded sound isn't satisfactory) and it's just out of sync, playing whilst he's behind Clara and causing some unfortunate assumptions.
@@TheBRDalek yeah, that's what i was thinking, many could presume that he's slapping her butt while others can say he's slapping the back of a chair (to which we know there's not one there as Clara is bending over)
I could be wrong, but I always assumed that Vastra’s veil had a type of perception filter effect. Like, if the heart of the person looking at Vastra was cold and hateful, they wouldn’t see her face. If the person’s heart was open and warm and kind, they would be allowed to see her face.
the way i read the into the dalek scene is that the shell is translating Clara's words into 'dalek', the dalek's don't have a concept of their own individuality, they are all just dalek, they have no concept of dalek emotion beyond hatred so any expression of emotion translates as 'exterminate'
Daleks have rebelled in the past (Rusty and The Metaltron), so it's possible that the Daleks have had to crack down on enforcing their ideals. Also, Daleks have converted other lifeforms in the past, such as "Revelation of The Daleks", "The Parting of the Ways", and "Asylum of The Daleks".
I really don't get the issue with the "Don't cremate me" line. It was pretty important to include as a way to legitimize the afterlife Missy created as something real. Is it extremely dark? Yeah, to a pretty severe degree. But it's also an absolutely fantastic bit of horror and a crazy good concept for the show to explore. I love that they went there.
It was horrifying to me, and almost made me stop watching. I had just lost my mother very recently before that, and she has been cremated. That was HORRIFIC to hear!!
@@MaryAnnNytowl That is really unfortunate timing, and you can call me insensitive, but I just don't think that people having similar experiences in real life should prevent entertainment media from tackling those stories. We'd run out of content very quickly if media had to limit themselves only to things no one has had a traumatic experience with.
I watched the ep as i was going to sleep and heard it half asleep whilst grieving someone who had been cremated one of the most triggered I've been by media
WRONG! Look more closely at the slap scene. He claps his hands to emphasize the line. A human body gets struck, the body feels it and responds, even if it's anticipated, even in a Newtonian scene. Clara's lack of ANY physical response backs this up. You may be able to make a case for the "horny" thing, but you can't use an ass clap that's not there.
10:40 But they do though! There are several Daleks who go almost good in the show. Metaltron, Rusty, Dalek in Echoes of War. This is 1984 and “newspeak”, making the people dumber, and in this case, having Daleks be more obedient. I still say you are reaching in this. Nothing implies Daleks were saying “I love you to Davros” EDIT: A lot of people on Twitter said: “The system reinforces the worldview”, and I fully agree with that. The shell isn’t just a tank to dalek, it’s their sole possession, considering they are NEVER bred with an ounce of free will.
That’s not the real problem. Here’s a “real-time” canon example: The 10th Doctor sees Rose and runs away from Donna & the TARDIS towards her. He is shot by a dalek. Dalek (inside the tank): “Oh shoot. We’re not here kill you. We love you. We need help to stop Davros’ insane plan to destroy the universe! I surrender! Please help us!” What everyone hears outside the tank: “Exterminate! Exterminate!” Captain Jack kills the dalek. If the suit translates everything said by a dalek into a threat or aggression, how many times were daleks trying to surrender, or join the Doctor, only for the Doctor/their companions to kill them? The scene changes *everything*. Everything. And does, in a way, turn the Doctor into exactly the monster that the daleks portray him as. It’s cute in isolation, but it’s incredibly dark if you follow the logic of it.
@@DneilB007 That's a logical fallacy. You're saying that because the Dalek shell translates a certain phrase ("I love you") into another ("Exterminate"), that means that every instance of "Exterminate" must be a translation of "I love you." That's like saying every river is made of water so all water is found in rivers. Which is wrong.
@@DneilB007 Except the Dalek shot at the doctor. In the scene with Missy, Clara got agitated about the shell, and started blasting at random. Daleks only shoot in anger and hate. And besides that, once again, before the scene, we've never seen Daleks who weren't rotten on the inside EXCEPT for Metaltron
All the instances of “good” Daleks though had very specific circumstances with no other Daleks present to then fix it later on. Witch’s Familiar’s point is to show that Daleks now have mercy embedded in their dna thanks to the Doctor saving Davros as a child, which means that every Dalek we see from then on, except the Emperor’s human-hybrids, now have a good emotion in it. The episode just forgets that it was Clara who was begging, not a Dalek, so the whole maybe a Dalek can be good thing doesn’t ring true because it wasn’t the Dalek begging in the first place. The big issue is that episode confuses the Dalek tank for the actual Dalek creature, overcomplicating something that never needed it. Now it’s a 50/50 chance that whenever a Dalek is threatening someone or killing someone it might actually be trying to fight its own conditioning, which kinda saps the menace and allegory from them.
The only thing that I can think of that slightly justifies the weird sexualisation going on, is that it was done so that her relationship with 12 would be even more changed up. Since a few scenes of deep breath highlight how Clara liked the doctor being young. So having the sexual tension there beforehand helps sell that she is put off by him being older. Still weird as fuck but there’s kind of something else going on maybe?
That feels quite generous! The 'romantic chemistry' - if it was even needed in the first place! - could have been much better executed, and not so weird or horny.
Okay on the dalek suit thing. Just because a dalek is unable to express alternative ideas doesn’t necessarily mean they would if they could. I would argue the dalek suit can’t say something like “I love you” because there’s no need for it to be able to say that, because the dalek mutant wouldn’t say that.
Moffat is just wrong. Dalek tanks don't alter their speech for them. That means the tanks invalidate the thoughts and words of the Daleks; it takes away their agency, makes them the Daleks less evil, and ruins the entire concept of the creatures.
Yes I agree with most of this a lot. The only stuff Chibnall did which gets to this level is some of 13's dodgy moral moments, especially that line in Kerblam.
First Doctor: Aren't all women made of glass, in a way? (Literally TWO episodes ago) Twelfth Doctor: We're the most civilized civilization in the universe. We're billions of years beyond your petty human obsession with gender and its associated stereotypes.
Honestly, that first clip, it looks to me like the doctor is clapping his hands together rather than touching Clara. She doesn't react to it whatsoever. Could be totally wrong but I've watched it a number of times and that's how it looks to me
Yeah, you right about the First Doctor... but this scene is so hilarious! In my headcanon he was pranking Twelfth Doctor whole time. Hartnell's character was kind of a prankster (not in the first stories) so it would make some sense.
I always thought that 'Ladies made of glass' should've come from Lethbridge-Stewart rather than The Doctor & merely have him visually acknowldege the metaphor.
The dalek machine translating thing is still one of the most stupid moments ever to me, and it's annoying because it could have been fixed with just ONE change to the script. Just show that Missy hacks or messes around with the controls first before letting Clara in so it's obvious that it's not that the Dalek machine tranlsates and fires on it's own, it's just that Missy messed aorund with it and caused it act that way for her own amusement. That would have been far more in character for Missy and more tragic knowing that Missy had this elaborate drawn out plan just to torture Clara
There is a definite crush between Clara and The 11th Doctor. But, much as I don't like several stories in Season Two, The Doctor and Rose do love each other, but neither went around slapping asses (as we call it in the States). And yes, Moffat really did a bad job in writing The First Doctor. David Bradley still had some wonderful moments though.
Every writer has their flaws and the nature of Doctor Who having one head writer will always eventually bring these flaws to the forefront. I'd like to see one of these for RTD as well because people like to think his first era was perfect but there's some very questionable stuff, Cringe moments and pretty bad political lines.
Definitely. Even the so-called "good" RTD episodes (IMO RTD is massively overrated) like "Dalek" are mired by bad writing. In Dalek, RTD showed a single Dalek as being a viable threat only to end the episode with said Dalek going emo and killing itself because it discovered that it was alone. >:(
@@TheBlackSeraph I agree RTD is overrated, but the Dalek killed itself because it was no longer pure, not because it was lonely. It kind of came to terms with that pretty quickly.
The Don't Cremate Me thing had to have been a last minute idea Moffat had since it never appears outside this episode. The cop from The Caretaker especially shows this: his body was charred to a crisp but never shows any pain despite apparently telling the whole story to Seb before realizing he didn't survive. And that's before remembering Danny Pink was hit with a car. Considering the potential damage done to his body from the impact, Danny doesn't feel anything but the cold from the morgue?
I mean those things would actually help support that the cremation thing was a lie merely to get people not to have their bodies burnt. I think one of the more weird aspects of the Promised Land arc is how people from way in the past AND the future are getting sucked in as well. Missy does have time travel that can kind of cover that but it feels a little extensive. Also, there was this idea of the Promised Land being reached by robots and being a planet that's never quite elaborated on, (like they wouldn't be a target demographic since they're robots, although the Half-Face Man got in so who knows).
The “afterlife” is under Missy’s control. Danny feels cold because Missy programmed the afterlife that way. This was done precisely to make the dead *think* it was because they were in the morgue, as a pressure to get them to consent to cybermanization. The same with the screams he hears. He hears screams because Missy wanted people like him to, in order to make him more likely to choose to become a Cyberman. Still a horrific simulated afterlife, but entirely the work of the Master, who’s a pretty depraved villain anyhow, and not some “natural” afterlife that was merely suborned for this purpose.
It doesn't matter though. The people have died and were tortured in some type of "after life." It doesn't matter if there is an actual afterlife or not. Missy is putting all of humanity, past and present, through torture for eternity. It's depraved beyond measure.
10:09 I always just assumed the dalek tanks are built to accommodate the mutants inside, if the daleks channel strong emotions then it would be built to be most suited to the way they’ve been genetically altered (we can see this in the genesis of the daleks story and the RTD era too with daleks using lingo like “pity isn’t registered in my vocabulary bank”. The tanks are just extensions of the mutant inside and so when Clara gets in it physically isn’t built to understand concepts like love, tolerance, etc because the mutants inside aren’t expected to have this traits
Moffat is just wrong. Dalek tanks don't alter their speech for them. That means the tanks invalidate the thoughts and words of the Daleks; it takes away their agency, makes them the Daleks less evil, and ruins the entire concept of the creatures.
RTD had the first revival dalek say “pity” when the doctor was shocking them. It was probably added in with “mercy” because of the magician’s apprentice
also the whole naked church thing in time of the doctor served absolutely no purpose to the story and was clearly just Moffat wanted to imagine Jenna Coleman was naked. It's very cringe. And creates a lot of uncomfortable questions...are Silence actually naked? Are their suits part of their skin or a hologram? No...it's just dumb.
My reasons for hating Moffat: obnoxious, superficial and solipsistic characterisation, contrived and anti-climactic plotting, plus the sheer hypocrisy and ego of the man: an ageing ageist (having Tom Baker, Lis Sladen and Katy Manning on to pretty much make digs about their ages - then his last Dalek story being a 'Legz Akimbo' level terrible mess on the theme), and a pandering two-faced misogynist - making the male-bashing gestures and shallow 'girl boss' tributes while apparently behind the scenes saying crap like Karen Gillan got the part of his Amy Pond because she was "skinnier than the actress who auditioned."
Honestly I think that the witches familiar covers it's own backside by the fact that no other dalek has said mercy suggesting that (hopefully) it's only a failsafe, even if as you said it shouldn't need one
@@MrTARDIS After realizing who River is and being scared of her. So yes, it's a failsafe, and that stone dalek is the only other dalek to say that. Besides, he was borked from being 1000s of years from Amy being closed in Pandorica. It's blaster didn't even kill the Doctor. Stone Dalek is an exception that proves the rule.
@@vcom741 the point of Witcher's Familiar was meant to be that the concept of saying 'mercy' would be so alien for a Dalek that it physically just wouldn't say it, hence the Doctor noting something is wrong. He even says the concept shouldn't exist in a Dalek's vocabulary banks. But as MRTARDIS points out, Moffat had written a dalek as saying that as exact word meaning It's not impossible for the Dalek to say it, meaning the Doctor would know that any Dalek would say it, meaning it shouldn't be a surprise when Clara Dalek says it... If it's not a problem for you, that's fine. Keep enjoying the episode. But it is undeniably just a writing oversight...
The Moffat line that always makes my skin crawl is when Bill says: “But hey. You know how I'm usually all about women - and kind of people my own age.” in The Doctor Falls. Like it’s meant to be a harmless jest in the ep but it’s one of those lines that just doesn’t need to be said. I love Moffat’s writing so it sucks whenever there’s a creepy or misogynistic lone. Truly the Hitchcock of our age
'Don't cremate me' is excellent, it's the only time New Who has been legitimately scary. We cremated both my grandparents less than a year before this episode aired (don't worry, they were already dead) so this episode really hit hard, it's fantastic. People who get squeamish over this need to get a grip. As far as the 'human afterlife across all of time and space' is concerned - Missy probably prioritised people the Doctor was associated with. Plus the cyberspace idea implies that the dead minds are digital copies that are then uploaded into the upgraded bodies of the people they're based on. Either way, it's a wonderfully morbid idea and Doctor Who should do stuff like that more often. Kids deserve to be scared without having to watch adult movies or shows!
Just pointing out, the suits replace the bodies. Danny's body in the morgue drawer, the bodies in the graveyard, the Brigadier. All showed up where the bodies used to be, digging out, if need be.
@@Jansenbaker I assume the bodies are legitimate, but the minds themselves are digital copies. Kind of like the data-ghosts from Silence in the Library - this is a recurring theme in Moffat's work. As Missy says - Cybermen from cyberspace
@@darlig.ulv.bakhjerne Oh, I thought you were saying the Cybersuits just deployed from somewhere. I misinterpreted "the people they're based on" to mean that.
6:03 Technically Adric isn't human and as far as we know, Missy's Cybermen have similar limitations as normal Cybermen when it comes to what species are compatible with being turned into Cybermen.
I must say everything Chibnall has done 'wrong', Moffat did 10x worse before. Particularly female roles being abusive. If Graham slapped Thirteen, the show would be axed
11 being awkward and asexual with the ONLY exception being river song was incredibly charming in my opinion, and his dynamic in series 7 with Clara is not only cringe but i feel ruins his doctor’s character for no reason
honestly everything that happens in asylum makes me so angry I can't watch it again. but there is nothing I hate more than the stupid dalek drones with eyestalks coming out their heads
@@defrostedrobot77 But because of that it creates a plot whole with the timeless child so its actually great If it was the first doctor who stole the tardis how does the fugitive doctor have it? Unless she actually came after
Honestly I HATE the entire episode of Twice Upon a Time. The entire joke is just "oop, isn't it funny when sexism happens? Isn't funny when homophobia?" No Steven, it isn't funny, its uncomfortable and makes Bill feel unwelcome. Making minorities feel uncomfortable isn't funny. Also it's complete character assassination like Mr Tardis said
I am literally watching old who from the beginning and we have gone from a companion whose only job is to scream to a companion in Clara who tells the doctor which tardis to choose, gets the timelords to give him extra regenerations, gets him to go to "hell" for her dead boyfriend and then has him trying to reverse her death
Honestly I love that, she's great but has such an ego and a reckless streak that she always makes herself the center of attention even when the doctor is there. Its very different from other companions. It also pays off in her 'death'. Say what you will about how thats rectonned though
@@benmiller3252 I know, but it still is muddied by the fact she got to run around with her own tardis a while, though I do think the interaction between her and 12 in the diner did make that a little worth it as I love how that scene is written not knowing who lost their memory until the end was really well played out
Moffat does just as many terrible retcons and self-inserts into the lore as chibnall did, if not more, but we were more charitable towards him because at least the characters were likable and mostly well-written. I’m glad this video exists to point to when people are blinded by their somewhat understandable Chibnall hate.
I want to watch this video, but I musn't watch this video until I've finished my binge of Moffat-era Who. Someone drop me a reminder in about 2 or 3 weeks.
A lot of Moffat’s stuff has the really weird sexual undertone to it, like he was trying to get out some kinks he had while writing. Now, I don’t mean to kink-shame but it’s just weird to me. I guess it’s supposed to be funny, you know, “one for the dads”, but it’s just a bit uncomfortable when this is meant to be a family oriented show.
Remember the mutant doesn't change, the casing often changes. So having a Dalek scientist sneak that in as a feature it makes perfect sense, particularly seeing as the Asylum of the Daleks establishes they sometimes convert other species.
@@Concreteowl both the dalek casing design and dalek mutant design have changed many times over the history of the show the reason why the asylum inmates converted oswin was that they were insane, it isn't a standard dalek strategy to convert non-Daleks - it goes against everything they believe in and the reason why people have issue with the Dalek casing doing the hating isn't that it's a bad idea on its own - it's the fact that it detracts from the notion that mutant itself is unflinchingly hateful. the fact that the daleks felt the need to add a system that makes the casing supplement the mutant's emotions with hate implies that the daleks aren't totally hateful, which contradicts the whole point of the daleks as they are supposed to be merciless murderers even outside of their casings
I actually think David Bradley's take on the first doctor is horrible, regardless of what lines he's given. He's a great actor and I've loved him in any other role (even Dinosaurs on a Spaceship - he was the only redeeming aspect of that entire episode) but his first doctor just has none of the charm that Hartnell brought to the role. That being said, Moffat's writing was exponentially worse than Bradley's acting in that episode. Sorry, I think Twice Upon a Time might be my least favorite episode in all of Doctor Who. Miles ahead of anything Chibnal put out. I'll take mediocre over a slap in the face to the entire franchise any day.
The "Don't cremate me" stuff is great. I was 10 when it broadcast and thought it was brilliant then. I really do not understand your problems with it, it's not at all "edgy", the idea is that The Master sets up the afterlife so that the dead will voluntarily choose to delete their emotions instead of suffering through whatever happens to their corpse. Is it dark? Yes. Is it one of the best ideas for a Cyberman story ever? Yes. Is it fully capitalised on in Death in Heaven? Not really. Is this story and concept fiction? Yes, it's ridiculous how much you attack that story over this one thing.
Big fan of how your argument is that it's fiction as if the suspension of disbelief isn't a thing. We choose to believe these characters exist in their own fictional world. So yeah it is kind of fucked up to imagine your favorite characters suffering horribly for eternity.
@@HowDoIMakeAUsername This is the same show where people die, usually horribly, every episode. I stand by that the concept is brilliant and if nothing else, I applaud the sheer balls on Moffat for doing it.
I don't think you can compare the two because they go into opposite directions: Moffat was often sexist ("I need to focus on a dress-size!" River Song when regenerating) who had too overcomplicated plans (The Silents), Chibnall often felt like doing inclusion for the sake of it (the companions were a diverse cast, but most of their traits like Yaz being a policewoman could have been used so many times!) or anti-men (Doctor: "I had an upgrade") and his episodes mostly seemed like first drafts that beat their morals into your head (Orphan 55).
I don't the "upgrade" line is anti-men - the line in hell bent where the general regenerates into a woman and goes "wow how do men deal with such an ego" is far more eye-rollinh
why literally no one talks bout how he made the Doctor a self-unaware groomer, three times? that alone was enough for me to know the guy has a problem and especially now that I know even more about the things he said
When it comes to the First Doctor, for my own peace of mind I just assume that he's acting sexist just so Mark Gatiss' soldier character doesn't feel too out of place. The guy's in shock, maybe that kind of language and attitude might just help him recover somewhat. It doesn't excuse it, though.
Given the choice of a writer who consistently delivers dull-to-above-average episodes and one who swings for the fences, I'll take the latter, as long as they hit the occasional home run. (I'm not naming names.)
I missed out on the stream for this and I've commented on some of these before but I guess I might as well throw in some thoughts on this. Nightmare in Silver 11 line: I think it's a little unfair to say with 100 percent certainty that Moff wrote that line at the end without some kind of confirmation. Like if we're sticking to lines Moffat himself wrote than we should stick to stuff that we know for sure. That being said I don't think the line is that bad given that 11 does at least seem to be aware it's not a great thing to think and smacks himself afterwards. I think it's fine that we can have characters be a little flawed like this if there's some acknowledgement of this. I also think that when it comes to the Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS and Crimson Horror examples of creepiness it's no small thing that those may have been improvised on set because it then means that Moffat didn't plan on them happening originally and you can't really lay the blame on him. As for the romantic stuff with Clara and 11 I guess that's pretty subjective because I think they have some pretty good chemistry and I can certainly see why both would find each other appealing. Also, I'm not sure if River Song is really a huge problem here given that a)it seems like Eleven was kind of moving on from her at this point given his attitude in Name of the Doctor b)we see in Husbands that River is in a pretty open relationship with other dudes even after she was married to the Doc so it seems like both of them are cool with having some folks on the side. Dark Water: This one I've definitely rambled on before but to try and be quick you can't use Danny feeling that he's cold as conclusive evidence of anything because he's in a simulation that's selling a lie to people. Also, it seems pretty clear that the whole point of DON'T CREMATE ME in the context of the story is to have the villains make sure they can still use the bodies of the dead as Cybermen (since you can't really convert a pile of ash with no DNA). And again the fact that this whole thing is run by a well-known liar brings at least some doubt to the whole thing. The only thing we can say with any certainty is that the dead were being taken throughout various periods of time and being made into Cybermen. While that's definitely not a great thing to happen that's a pretty separate issue from whether they are feeling being burned alive and so it would have to be a separate complaint from whether or not you can show that on Doctor Who. Asylum "never kill you": I feel like it's pretty obvious the Dalek is messing with the Doctor there when saying the Doctor's hatred has been what has been preventing them killing him. They've definitely tried to kill him a lot but there's a suggestion there that subconciously it's been preventing them from going through with it, but mainly it's to stick it to the Doctor that he's a bit of a hypocrite or a failure for revelling in hate when he's condemning the Daleks for it, obviously it's not the same thing but it makes sense why a villain would approach something like that. Witch's Familiar Dalek thing: I don't see why the Daleks being full of hate and the tank adding additional potential hate can't co-exist. The Daleks are shown to be plenty bad on their own in this story. Deep Breath Amy's legs line: I don't see how this is very problematic at all. 12's observation is that if Amy was in this situation Amy's legs would be long enough to help get them out. There's nothing sexual implied in the statement. It ends up being a dig on Clara being short but that's not too bad. Deep Breath Veil line: I feel like Vastra's point is not that she's literally saying the Veil went away when Clara stopped noticing it but rather she decided to take it off once it was no longer something Clara was making note of.
God the Series 9 opener is so utter shite. I hate to be a negative nancy but it really is the pits of Who. What was Moffat thinking with that Dalek retcon? And not letting Davros or the Doctor fundamentally change and evolve because "same old same old look deconstruction oh wait no it's not it's just the same shit again cause I dunno, poetry or something" was Moffat's entire writing style for 2015 Who. Chibnall is *very* flawed but at least he sticks to his changes and tries to move the foundations of the show forward instead of running around in circles wasting everyone's time.
I prefer what happened with Davros in Witch's Familiar, basically duping the Doctor and the audience for a bit on him having a change of heart for the sake of scheme, then basically what ended up happening with the Master and Chibnall where we went on a pretty big arc where Missy was trying to do better and sadly got killed...and then the Master returns in S12 going all crazy and stuff without any real mention of any of those events. I also think a lot of the Timeless Children stuff has had a lot of running around in circles with the Doctor basically learning the same lesson a couple times (as someone reminded me recently).
Also a canon fixer for the awful thing in the which’s furmillia missy made the dalek casing like that to trick Clara and said to her this is how the dalek casing works
I still think that steven or rtd's writing is nowhere near as bad as chibnall's. I personally think that comparing steven to chibnall is just reaching. No hate to chibnall but he really shouldn't have been chosen to write for doctor who.
Besides the stuff about the driving instructor, I honestly don't think Space and Time is that bad? The power dynamic between Amy and Rory as a married couple and the Doctor (who are pretty firm friends by this point in the series) is entirely different than Clara as the sole companion who doesn't seem fully comfortable with the Doctor until the very end of Series 7. I guess there's an argument to be made that it's problematic on a metatextual level, but to me it just comes across as banter between friends who probably have a good grasp of each other's boundaries. Also, it was written for Comic Relief which didn't shy away from more adult content (though usually later into the night) at the time.
the thing that makes me angriest about the dalek thing is that Moffat had almost got it right in Into The Dalek? the idea that the Dalek Machine is constantly feeding fascist rhetoric to the Dalek Mutant is good commentary on how fascist radicalisation happens IRL, tho Into the Dalek also messed up some stuff about that. But TMA/TWF basically made it so that the blame is *entirely* on the Dalek Machines
If you find that insulting, watch Moffats last Sitcom Coupling, the first three series (regarded by many fans as the peak), there is an annoying sexist Character called Jeff Murdock, whose seemingly only purpose is to crack sexist jokes (And he is regarded by many Fans as the best Character). Series 4 has no Jeff in it, and it's my favourite series of this Show.
have you ever thought that those things were done because they NEWE that someday in the future a youtuber would call everyone's attention to them for whatever reason.
Yes Clara has seen other faces of the Doctor but she hasn't lost hers before. That's the point. She isn't upset that the new Doctor looks old it's that he acts old and angry and doesn't have the child like wonder that the War Doctor and old 11 had. The Caretaker establishes that 11 isn't her type. Danny is.
You not being able to remember says a lot just like how this experience of mine says a lot: even in the very first episode of his era I was more like 'oh, this really is a damn 10 years old series'
OK I get that the 'don't cremate me' thing probably affected you personally, but your constant bashing of this episode is getting a bit tiresome now. It's been five years, let it go. There are those who actually enjoy when Doctor Who gets dark and gritty, especially where the Cybermen are concerned. If it didn't work for you, that's fine, just accept it and move on. But to keep coming back to that episode like you did in your Cybercember review is just beating a dead horse. Dark Water / Death in Heaven is a grim, unapologetically morbid episode, and that's why it's great. Get over it.
11:20 To be fair however, apart from newborn mutants (e.g. genesis of the daleks) i don't believe that we have seen a mutant be aggresive for no reason. if anything when the mutant directly comes into conversation with the doctor/ a companion they start to develop and change, generally betraying the still sealed off daleks. Picture it like the shell keeps their worldview narrow.
In Resurrection of the Daleks a Dalek mutant escapes it's casing and goes for one of the soldiers neck and in Rememberance of the Daleks one of the Imperial Dalek mutant strangles the Doctor with its organic pincer.
None of these really hinder my enjoyment of the show in any way, like yes I actually thought the first doctor being kinda sexist was funny i take as that he doesn’t really believe these things just adopts the attitude of the time period he had lived in to just blend in a bit more
Firstly, I think the line about Clara's skirt demonstrates one of two things: either there is still a bit of the cybertechnology in the Doctor's brain at that point, or the Doctor realises he's not as blind to Clara's attractiveness as he'd like to think. Also, can we please stop pretending there's something wrong with somebody fancying somebody else? Jenna Coleman's very pretty and there's nothing you can do about it, frankly. As to your comment about Michael Grade being a bad person purely because of his political beliefs... that's just not on, frankly. I'm not as left-wing as I used to be, but I'm still left of centre. However, I have friends and family who are on the right, and I love them dearly. Just because someone believes something you don't, it doesn't inherently make them a bad person. The 'don't cremate me' line, while near the knuckle, is a wonderfully dark piece of storytelling. Any opposition to it seems to hinge on the presupposition that children aren't clever enough to distinguish fact from fiction, which for the most part they are. Obviously, there will be children - and adults - unable to make that distinction, but Doctor Who is television for the masses, not specific groups within those masses. Women slapping men is not as acceptable these days as it was then, but it is a very useful way of displaying emotion. It's very much show don't tell. In fact, it's a trope used in other shows that children watch, in particular soap operas. Again though, it's flattering the audience that they can understand the difference between a TV programme and reality. There's no Dalek retcon, let's be honest. The idea that emotions drive the Daleks to exterminate as been implied since their early days. Certainly, their desire to explode another neutron bomb in the first story is driven by fear and a need to survive, both of which are emotional responses. The First Doctor in Twice Upon a Time is clearly written as a cipher to certain attitudes of the sixties, especially up to 1966. Women were expected to do certain things around the house, so the Doctor's lines reflect that. Twelve's responses to those moments are modern standards imposing themselves on history. It's a lot smarter than people give it credit for. As for Rory being distracted by Amy's skirt, why's that a problem? Again, it's this weird prudishness that's been growing in the last 10 or 15 years. I mean, how dare a man fancy his wife. Absolutely scandalous behaviour! The thin fat gay couple is most probably a comment on labels being more important than names in the future. It's a good sci-fi idea which sadly isn't explored enough, I don't think. Vastra's veil scene is beautifully written. Yes, she removed the veil herself, but only once Clara became unaware of it. She was no longer paying attention to what Vastra was doing, so the veil was removed - possibly by Jenny - during Clara's response. I do despair sometimes at people's seeming inability to infer something metaphorical from scenes such as that. It's common these days for people to not understand that a person can be in one scene and then in a completely different scene if they haven't seen them walk through a door, or drive to a location. That last one happens a lot in American dramas, I've noticed.
To be fair, 11 kissed Rory as well, a straight married man. However, I don't see anybody else calling that sexual assault. And also at 9:51, when you say that the timeless child doesn't affect the Doctor's character...well, it does. Otherwise, everything else I agree with.
This is the worst of 11, what is this writing? I do like Moffat but his worst series is 7 Bart b I like part A a specially for angels take Manhattan I really like that story but this? It’s terrible 11 is my second fave dr but his and Clara is toxic and disgusting the only doctor relationship I like is dr and river yaz and 13 and Charley and 8th dr (Charley is a big finish companion) also the hole dalek casing controls the mutant isn’t cannon it was only for the plot which wasn’t that good and makes no sense. Chibnall even acknowledged that it’s the dalek mutant not the casing that does all the hate.
I don 't like how you completely dismiss peoples opinions as wrong when they argue that Clara being put into the Dalek tank was never intended to be a retcon. It was clear to me that her being in the tank was simply there to create the scene at the end where the Doctor wants to shoot her. The whole translation thing is just there to explain away how Clara is able to control the Dalek when she isn't a Dalek mutant.
The First Doctor’s attitude was always more ‘Silly humans’ than ‘Silly women’
I think the 1st Doctor being sexist was retconned in the TUAT novel to him messing with 12. Although that seems a stretch.
My head cannon was always just the doctor acts how the people acted at the time. Same reason as to why 11, 12 and 13 are very cringy sometimes because they’re sort of mocking us in the current day and age.
@@thelegendthemyththeman4772 Tennant is the height of cringe
“You know, I am so constantly outwitting the opposition, I tend to forget the delights and satisfaction of the arts - the gentle art of trolling”
Ya actually i can believe that lol. Also man I really wanna see that like hour long cut of twice upon a time
@@fletcheragenda6014 Isn't Twice Upon A Time already an hour long?
Amy is sexually assaulting the Doctor at the end of Flesh an Stone, him fighting her off and saying no many times. Also treated as a joke.
Moffat timey wimy shit made it even worse because Amy basically attempted to rape her son in law before she got married and before she had her kid.
True though Moffat himself has actually come out and said he regrets that moment and how comedically he played. Doesn't make the moment any better of course but it is one of the few times he's apologised for a morally questionable decision so it doesn't bug me as much as the Pond Divorce or the Doctor assaulting Jenny in Crimson Horror in which there's been no apology
Moffat in general couldn't help himself from witholding his dominatrix fetish when it comes to writing the series.
And cheating on Rory on top of it
@@Joemama55122 Then she tries to do the exact same thing AT HER WEDDING! IN FRONT OF THE MAN!
That "spank" is 100% a clap at an unfortunate camera angle.
Yeah, especially as Clara doesn't even react in the slightest.
Exactly.
Agreed
You're right. It's definitely a poorly framed clap of his hands together. And I also agree that Moffat writes some weird sexualization into his scripts, but this is not one of those times.
Yes
13:58 Yeah I hated that as well, it really gave the bowlstreks of the fandom something to work with because it kinda was a random smear against the 1st doctor who was never really openly sexist, actually I remember female companions back then being very active and progressive for the time
He slaps his hands doesn’t he? He doesn’t slap Clara’s bum.
nah, wasn't the hands but it wasn't the bum either, Clara/Jenna would've reacted otherwise and by the looks of things even if it was an improv then she should've reacted at least, unless it was a gag between the two off screen and they tried to sneek it in each and every chance they get. *shrugs* who knows
It's definitely hard to tell definitively what's going on in that shot. Someone really oughta ask Matt or Jenna about it at a convention some time so we can hopefully get some closure.
@@un_known5895 I think it's an editing fluff. The Doctor's hand do collide before the sound, I think they put in a stock clap sound effect (it's very common with sound editing, everything from footsteps to sneezes can be added in post production if the recorded sound isn't satisfactory) and it's just out of sync, playing whilst he's behind Clara and causing some unfortunate assumptions.
@@TheBRDalek yeah, that's what i was thinking, many could presume that he's slapping her butt while others can say he's slapping the back of a chair (to which we know there's not one there as Clara is bending over)
I could be wrong, but I always assumed that Vastra’s veil had a type of perception filter effect. Like, if the heart of the person looking at Vastra was cold and hateful, they wouldn’t see her face. If the person’s heart was open and warm and kind, they would be allowed to see her face.
This. Definitely my take, too.
same
And I thought it was awful writing.
Nice headcanon.
That's a neat idea. How about if the show actually hinted or suggested that.
the way i read the into the dalek scene is that the shell is translating Clara's words into 'dalek', the dalek's don't have a concept of their own individuality, they are all just dalek, they have no concept of dalek emotion beyond hatred so any expression of emotion translates as 'exterminate'
Daleks have rebelled in the past (Rusty and The Metaltron), so it's possible that the Daleks have had to crack down on enforcing their ideals. Also, Daleks have converted other lifeforms in the past, such as "Revelation of The Daleks", "The Parting of the Ways", and "Asylum of The Daleks".
Anytime the words "impossible girl" are said throughout the series is a good candidate lol
Or Clara's Backstory interference arc in general
I really don't get the issue with the "Don't cremate me" line. It was pretty important to include as a way to legitimize the afterlife Missy created as something real. Is it extremely dark? Yeah, to a pretty severe degree. But it's also an absolutely fantastic bit of horror and a crazy good concept for the show to explore. I love that they went there.
So good in fact that Moffat used the exact same idea (and almost the same line) years later in the 2019/20 Dracula adaptation.
It was horrifying to me, and almost made me stop watching. I had just lost my mother very recently before that, and she has been cremated. That was HORRIFIC to hear!!
@@MaryAnnNytowl That is really unfortunate timing, and you can call me insensitive, but I just don't think that people having similar experiences in real life should prevent entertainment media from tackling those stories. We'd run out of content very quickly if media had to limit themselves only to things no one has had a traumatic experience with.
SCP-2718 was already more than I could handle in the SCP Wiki alone. Can we please not have Doctor Who copy that idea from them?
I watched the ep as i was going to sleep and heard it half asleep whilst grieving someone who had been cremated one of the most triggered I've been by media
WRONG!
Look more closely at the slap scene. He claps his hands to emphasize the line.
A human body gets struck, the body feels it and responds, even if it's anticipated, even in a Newtonian scene.
Clara's lack of ANY physical response backs this up.
You may be able to make a case for the "horny" thing, but you can't use an ass clap that's not there.
It is slightly obvious if you slow the footage and listen to the slap.
10:40 But they do though! There are several Daleks who go almost good in the show. Metaltron, Rusty, Dalek in Echoes of War. This is 1984 and “newspeak”, making the people dumber, and in this case, having Daleks be more obedient. I still say you are reaching in this. Nothing implies Daleks were saying “I love you to Davros”
EDIT: A lot of people on Twitter said: “The system reinforces the worldview”, and I fully agree with that. The shell isn’t just a tank to dalek, it’s their sole possession, considering they are NEVER bred with an ounce of free will.
Also who made the tanks? The daleks. They are still responsible for this.
That’s not the real problem. Here’s a “real-time” canon example:
The 10th Doctor sees Rose and runs away from Donna & the TARDIS towards her. He is shot by a dalek.
Dalek (inside the tank): “Oh shoot. We’re not here kill you. We love you. We need help to stop Davros’ insane plan to destroy the universe! I surrender! Please help us!”
What everyone hears outside the tank: “Exterminate! Exterminate!”
Captain Jack kills the dalek.
If the suit translates everything said by a dalek into a threat or aggression, how many times were daleks trying to surrender, or join the Doctor, only for the Doctor/their companions to kill them?
The scene changes *everything*. Everything. And does, in a way, turn the Doctor into exactly the monster that the daleks portray him as.
It’s cute in isolation, but it’s incredibly dark if you follow the logic of it.
@@DneilB007 That's a logical fallacy. You're saying that because the Dalek shell translates a certain phrase ("I love you") into another ("Exterminate"), that means that every instance of "Exterminate" must be a translation of "I love you." That's like saying every river is made of water so all water is found in rivers. Which is wrong.
@@DneilB007 Except the Dalek shot at the doctor. In the scene with Missy, Clara got agitated about the shell, and started blasting at random. Daleks only shoot in anger and hate.
And besides that, once again, before the scene, we've never seen Daleks who weren't rotten on the inside EXCEPT for Metaltron
All the instances of “good” Daleks though had very specific circumstances with no other Daleks present to then fix it later on.
Witch’s Familiar’s point is to show that Daleks now have mercy embedded in their dna thanks to the Doctor saving Davros as a child, which means that every Dalek we see from then on, except the Emperor’s human-hybrids, now have a good emotion in it. The episode just forgets that it was Clara who was begging, not a Dalek, so the whole maybe a Dalek can be good thing doesn’t ring true because it wasn’t the Dalek begging in the first place.
The big issue is that episode confuses the Dalek tank for the actual Dalek creature, overcomplicating something that never needed it. Now it’s a 50/50 chance that whenever a Dalek is threatening someone or killing someone it might actually be trying to fight its own conditioning, which kinda saps the menace and allegory from them.
2:20 i think he slaps his hands but its just horribly misplaced in the shot.
The only thing that I can think of that slightly justifies the weird sexualisation going on, is that it was done so that her relationship with 12 would be even more changed up. Since a few scenes of deep breath highlight how Clara liked the doctor being young. So having the sexual tension there beforehand helps sell that she is put off by him being older. Still weird as fuck but there’s kind of something else going on maybe?
That feels quite generous! The 'romantic chemistry' - if it was even needed in the first place! - could have been much better executed, and not so weird or horny.
What I find hilarious about The Witches Familiar retcon is that it contradicts what happened THE LAST TIME CLARA WAS INSIDE A DALEK.
Glad to see Mr. Tardis being a true patriot for equality. he doesnt stand for any group being abused or discriminated against. Big up Mr. Tardis
Okay on the dalek suit thing. Just because a dalek is unable to express alternative ideas doesn’t necessarily mean they would if they could. I would argue the dalek suit can’t say something like “I love you” because there’s no need for it to be able to say that, because the dalek mutant wouldn’t say that.
except we have seen cases where it has. like in dalek. or in evil of the Daleks.
Moffat is just wrong. Dalek tanks don't alter their speech for them. That means the tanks invalidate the thoughts and words of the Daleks; it takes away their agency, makes them the Daleks less evil, and ruins the entire concept of the creatures.
If the Dalek mutant wouldn't say that then why would the casing need to restrict it saying that? That makes no sense
Yes I agree with most of this a lot. The only stuff Chibnall did which gets to this level is some of 13's dodgy moral moments, especially that line in Kerblam.
First Doctor: Aren't all women made of glass, in a way?
(Literally TWO episodes ago)
Twelfth Doctor: We're the most civilized civilization in the universe. We're billions of years beyond your petty human obsession with gender and its associated stereotypes.
Honestly, that first clip, it looks to me like the doctor is clapping his hands together rather than touching Clara. She doesn't react to it whatsoever.
Could be totally wrong but I've watched it a number of times and that's how it looks to me
I think you’re correct. He’s always clapping his hands together.
Agreed!
Yeah, you right about the First Doctor... but this scene is so hilarious! In my headcanon he was pranking Twelfth Doctor whole time. Hartnell's character was kind of a prankster (not in the first stories) so it would make some sense.
the worst line EVER written is the one that begins the story of the timeless child.
I think in 'Journey' he is hitting his own arm or leg and it's just unfortunate framing.
I always thought that 'Ladies made of glass' should've come from Lethbridge-Stewart rather than The Doctor & merely have him visually acknowldege the metaphor.
The dalek machine translating thing is still one of the most stupid moments ever to me, and it's annoying because it could have been fixed with just ONE change to the script. Just show that Missy hacks or messes around with the controls first before letting Clara in so it's obvious that it's not that the Dalek machine tranlsates and fires on it's own, it's just that Missy messed aorund with it and caused it act that way for her own amusement. That would have been far more in character for Missy and more tragic knowing that Missy had this elaborate drawn out plan just to torture Clara
There is a definite crush between Clara and The 11th Doctor. But, much as I don't like several stories in Season Two, The Doctor and Rose do love each other, but neither went around slapping asses (as we call it in the States). And yes, Moffat really did a bad job in writing The First Doctor. David Bradley still had some wonderful moments though.
Every writer has their flaws and the nature of Doctor Who having one head writer will always eventually bring these flaws to the forefront. I'd like to see one of these for RTD as well because people like to think his first era was perfect but there's some very questionable stuff, Cringe moments and pretty bad political lines.
Definitely. Even the so-called "good" RTD episodes (IMO RTD is massively overrated) like "Dalek" are mired by bad writing. In Dalek, RTD showed a single Dalek as being a viable threat only to end the episode with said Dalek going emo and killing itself because it discovered that it was alone. >:(
@@TheBlackSeraph I agree RTD is overrated, but the Dalek killed itself because it was no longer pure, not because it was lonely. It kind of came to terms with that pretty quickly.
doesn't matter! whatever RTD did, still his era was the perfect and he has the higher ground compared to Moffat
The Don't Cremate Me thing had to have been a last minute idea Moffat had since it never appears outside this episode. The cop from The Caretaker especially shows this: his body was charred to a crisp but never shows any pain despite apparently telling the whole story to Seb before realizing he didn't survive.
And that's before remembering Danny Pink was hit with a car. Considering the potential damage done to his body from the impact, Danny doesn't feel anything but the cold from the morgue?
I mean those things would actually help support that the cremation thing was a lie merely to get people not to have their bodies burnt.
I think one of the more weird aspects of the Promised Land arc is how people from way in the past AND the future are getting sucked in as well. Missy does have time travel that can kind of cover that but it feels a little extensive. Also, there was this idea of the Promised Land being reached by robots and being a planet that's never quite elaborated on, (like they wouldn't be a target demographic since they're robots, although the Half-Face Man got in so who knows).
"don't let them cremate you"-Dracula series also made by Moffat haha he's got thing for it
The “afterlife” is under Missy’s control. Danny feels cold because Missy programmed the afterlife that way. This was done precisely to make the dead *think* it was because they were in the morgue, as a pressure to get them to consent to cybermanization. The same with the screams he hears. He hears screams because Missy wanted people like him to, in order to make him more likely to choose to become a Cyberman. Still a horrific simulated afterlife, but entirely the work of the Master, who’s a pretty depraved villain anyhow, and not some “natural” afterlife that was merely suborned for this purpose.
I really don't get how Mr.T continues to think that the cremation thing was legit after all this time.
It doesn't matter though. The people have died and were tortured in some type of "after life." It doesn't matter if there is an actual afterlife or not. Missy is putting all of humanity, past and present, through torture for eternity. It's depraved beyond measure.
10:09 I always just assumed the dalek tanks are built to accommodate the mutants inside, if the daleks channel strong emotions then it would be built to be most suited to the way they’ve been genetically altered (we can see this in the genesis of the daleks story and the RTD era too with daleks using lingo like “pity isn’t registered in my vocabulary bank”. The tanks are just extensions of the mutant inside and so when Clara gets in it physically isn’t built to understand concepts like love, tolerance, etc because the mutants inside aren’t expected to have this traits
Moffat is just wrong. Dalek tanks don't alter their speech for them. That means the tanks invalidate the thoughts and words of the Daleks; it takes away their agency, makes them the Daleks less evil, and ruins the entire concept of the creatures.
RTD had the first revival dalek say “pity” when the doctor was shocking them. It was probably added in with “mercy” because of the magician’s apprentice
You really need to watch the 'slap" again he is blatantly clapping as he walks past her.
It is not blatant but that is what happened
also the whole naked church thing in time of the doctor served absolutely no purpose to the story and was clearly just Moffat wanted to imagine Jenna Coleman was naked. It's very cringe. And creates a lot of uncomfortable questions...are Silence actually naked? Are their suits part of their skin or a hologram? No...it's just dumb.
My reasons for hating Moffat: obnoxious, superficial and solipsistic characterisation, contrived and anti-climactic plotting, plus the sheer hypocrisy and ego of the man: an ageing ageist (having Tom Baker, Lis Sladen and Katy Manning on to pretty much make digs about their ages - then his last Dalek story being a 'Legz Akimbo' level terrible mess on the theme), and a pandering two-faced misogynist - making the male-bashing gestures and shallow 'girl boss' tributes while apparently behind the scenes saying crap like Karen Gillan got the part of his Amy Pond because she was "skinnier than the actress who auditioned."
Honestly I think that the witches familiar covers it's own backside by the fact that no other dalek has said mercy suggesting that (hopefully) it's only a failsafe, even if as you said it shouldn't need one
A Dalek did beg for mercy in the Moffat-penned 'The Big Bang'.
@@MrTARDIS After realizing who River is and being scared of her. So yes, it's a failsafe, and that stone dalek is the only other dalek to say that. Besides, he was borked from being 1000s of years from Amy being closed in Pandorica. It's blaster didn't even kill the Doctor. Stone Dalek is an exception that proves the rule.
@@vcom741 the point of Witcher's Familiar was meant to be that the concept of saying 'mercy' would be so alien for a Dalek that it physically just wouldn't say it, hence the Doctor noting something is wrong. He even says the concept shouldn't exist in a Dalek's vocabulary banks. But as MRTARDIS points out, Moffat had written a dalek as saying that as exact word meaning It's not impossible for the Dalek to say it, meaning the Doctor would know that any Dalek would say it, meaning it shouldn't be a surprise when Clara Dalek says it...
If it's not a problem for you, that's fine. Keep enjoying the episode. But it is undeniably just a writing oversight...
@@lcoyle1998 I mean…11 was dying at the time lol. The only one who heard Dalek begging for mercy was River. Continuity maintained :p
@@MrTARDIS ah yes, nevermind, theres another plothole unless river just keeps her dalek murder escapades a secret
Can you do a video on worse RTD moments?
I suppose that seems fair
I can think of a few.
@@paulflint6254 I'd love to hear some suggestions. I'll definitely do a Chibnall one based on my Tweet-thread.
@@MrTARDIS RTD era, best and worst. Same with Chibnal. Also i like the timeless child concept, unpopular opinion i know
@@MrTARDIS the undo button in last of the time lords?
The Moffat line that always makes my skin crawl is when Bill says:
“But hey. You know how I'm usually all about women - and kind of people my own age.”
in The Doctor Falls. Like it’s meant to be a harmless jest in the ep but it’s one of those lines that just doesn’t need to be said. I love Moffat’s writing so it sucks whenever there’s a creepy or misogynistic lone. Truly the Hitchcock of our age
'Don't cremate me' is excellent, it's the only time New Who has been legitimately scary. We cremated both my grandparents less than a year before this episode aired (don't worry, they were already dead) so this episode really hit hard, it's fantastic. People who get squeamish over this need to get a grip. As far as the 'human afterlife across all of time and space' is concerned - Missy probably prioritised people the Doctor was associated with. Plus the cyberspace idea implies that the dead minds are digital copies that are then uploaded into the upgraded bodies of the people they're based on. Either way, it's a wonderfully morbid idea and Doctor Who should do stuff like that more often. Kids deserve to be scared without having to watch adult movies or shows!
Just pointing out, the suits replace the bodies. Danny's body in the morgue drawer, the bodies in the graveyard, the Brigadier.
All showed up where the bodies used to be, digging out, if need be.
@@Jansenbaker I assume the bodies are legitimate, but the minds themselves are digital copies. Kind of like the data-ghosts from Silence in the Library - this is a recurring theme in Moffat's work. As Missy says - Cybermen from cyberspace
@@darlig.ulv.bakhjerne Oh, I thought you were saying the Cybersuits just deployed from somewhere. I misinterpreted "the people they're based on" to mean that.
6:03 Technically Adric isn't human and as far as we know, Missy's Cybermen have similar limitations as normal Cybermen when it comes to what species are compatible with being turned into Cybermen.
The rules are really muddy there, however. The Half-Face man from 'Deep Breath' also wound-up in the Nethersphere and he wasn't fully human.
I must say everything Chibnall has done 'wrong', Moffat did 10x worse before. Particularly female roles being abusive. If Graham slapped Thirteen, the show would be axed
If it hadn't been for RTD coming back, it would be axed because of Chibnell and co
He claps his hands walking behind Clara, no spanking.
And… the ‘afterlife’ is Missy applying the Time Lord Matrix tech to humans…
11 being awkward and asexual with the ONLY exception being river song was incredibly charming in my opinion, and his dynamic in series 7 with Clara is not only cringe but i feel ruins his doctor’s character for no reason
I agree, as a person on the ace spectrum, I really related to that!
honestly everything that happens in asylum makes me so angry I can't watch it again. but there is nothing I hate more than the stupid dalek drones with eyestalks coming out their heads
The worst thing moffat did in my opinion was have clara being the one who chose the tardis
I guess you can make an argument that Clara was just rectifying the damage the Great Intelligence did to the timeline.
@@defrostedrobot77 But because of that it creates a plot whole with the timeless child so its actually great
If it was the first doctor who stole the tardis how does the fugitive doctor have it? Unless she actually came after
@@scotsoulgem Then maybe other moments of Clara messing with the Doctor's backstory are also gone.
@@llewelynshingler2173 Maybe? It's a plot hole either way though. He was still running away as his first incarnation
@@scotsoulgem she could be a Doctor in between 2 and 3. A season 6b Doctor, if you will.
Honestly I HATE the entire episode of Twice Upon a Time. The entire joke is just "oop, isn't it funny when sexism happens? Isn't funny when homophobia?" No Steven, it isn't funny, its uncomfortable and makes Bill feel unwelcome. Making minorities feel uncomfortable isn't funny. Also it's complete character assassination like Mr Tardis said
I've seen people complaining about Steven Moffat keeps giving Clara Oswald the spotlight in Series 8 and 9
I am literally watching old who from the beginning and we have gone from a companion whose only job is to scream to a companion in Clara who tells the doctor which tardis to choose, gets the timelords to give him extra regenerations, gets him to go to "hell" for her dead boyfriend and then has him trying to reverse her death
Honestly I love that, she's great but has such an ego and a reckless streak that she always makes herself the center of attention even when the doctor is there. Its very different from other companions. It also pays off in her 'death'. Say what you will about how thats rectonned though
@@scotsoulgem I think Ashilder returned her to the moment of her death
@@benmiller3252 I know, but it still is muddied by the fact she got to run around with her own tardis a while, though I do think the interaction between her and 12 in the diner did make that a little worth it as I love how that scene is written
not knowing who lost their memory until the end was really well played out
Moffat does just as many terrible retcons and self-inserts into the lore as chibnall did, if not more, but we were more charitable towards him because at least the characters were likable and mostly well-written. I’m glad this video exists to point to when people are blinded by their somewhat understandable Chibnall hate.
I want to watch this video, but I musn't watch this video until I've finished my binge of Moffat-era Who. Someone drop me a reminder in about 2 or 3 weeks.
idk if you've watched it already but... 1 year late is better than never i guess
A lot of Moffat’s stuff has the really weird sexual undertone to it, like he was trying to get out some kinks he had while writing. Now, I don’t mean to kink-shame but it’s just weird to me. I guess it’s supposed to be funny, you know, “one for the dads”, but it’s just a bit uncomfortable when this is meant to be a family oriented show.
RTD has women slapping men too. Jesus the Dalek casing turning any moment of mercy into more hate is chilling stuff. It an ingenious concept.
Remember the mutant doesn't change, the casing often changes. So having a Dalek scientist sneak that in as a feature it makes perfect sense, particularly seeing as the Asylum of the Daleks establishes they sometimes convert other species.
@@Concreteowl both the dalek casing design and dalek mutant design have changed many times over the history of the show
the reason why the asylum inmates converted oswin was that they were insane, it isn't a standard dalek strategy to convert non-Daleks - it goes against everything they believe in
and the reason why people have issue with the Dalek casing doing the hating isn't that it's a bad idea on its own - it's the fact that it detracts from the notion that mutant itself is unflinchingly hateful. the fact that the daleks felt the need to add a system that makes the casing supplement the mutant's emotions with hate implies that the daleks aren't totally hateful, which contradicts the whole point of the daleks as they are supposed to be merciless murderers even outside of their casings
He clapped his hands didn't touch clara in that scene she doesn't have any reaction
15:17 And Katarina, although she is there for a very short amount of time before she was ejected out the airlock.
The sexual stuff in general in anything Moffat makes I hate it either comes off as pervy or bad comedy
I actually think David Bradley's take on the first doctor is horrible, regardless of what lines he's given. He's a great actor and I've loved him in any other role (even Dinosaurs on a Spaceship - he was the only redeeming aspect of that entire episode) but his first doctor just has none of the charm that Hartnell brought to the role. That being said, Moffat's writing was exponentially worse than Bradley's acting in that episode.
Sorry, I think Twice Upon a Time might be my least favorite episode in all of Doctor Who. Miles ahead of anything Chibnal put out. I'll take mediocre over a slap in the face to the entire franchise any day.
The "Don't cremate me" stuff is great. I was 10 when it broadcast and thought it was brilliant then.
I really do not understand your problems with it, it's not at all "edgy", the idea is that The Master sets up the afterlife so that the dead will voluntarily choose to delete their emotions instead of suffering through whatever happens to their corpse.
Is it dark? Yes.
Is it one of the best ideas for a Cyberman story ever? Yes.
Is it fully capitalised on in Death in Heaven? Not really.
Is this story and concept fiction? Yes, it's ridiculous how much you attack that story over this one thing.
Big fan of how your argument is that it's fiction as if the suspension of disbelief isn't a thing. We choose to believe these characters exist in their own fictional world. So yeah it is kind of fucked up to imagine your favorite characters suffering horribly for eternity.
@@HowDoIMakeAUsername This is the same show where people die, usually horribly, every episode.
I stand by that the concept is brilliant and if nothing else, I applaud the sheer balls on Moffat for doing it.
I don't think you can compare the two because they go into opposite directions: Moffat was often sexist ("I need to focus on a dress-size!" River Song when regenerating) who had too overcomplicated plans (The Silents), Chibnall often felt like doing inclusion for the sake of it (the companions were a diverse cast, but most of their traits like Yaz being a policewoman could have been used so many times!) or anti-men (Doctor: "I had an upgrade") and his episodes mostly seemed like first drafts that beat their morals into your head (Orphan 55).
I don't the "upgrade" line is anti-men - the line in hell bent where the general regenerates into a woman and goes "wow how do men deal with such an ego" is far more eye-rollinh
@@cmbeadle2228 Youre right.
RTD also had 10 get sexually assaulted and the doctor gets hit several times too
0:52 “What can I say but yikes!”
Don't cremate me is an ingenious line.
How in what way is don’t cremate me a bad thing? It’s meant to be a bit of sci-fi horror which doctor who has always had and it works perfectly.
I've talked about it before, but I elaborate on it in my CyberCember review.
8:53 to 16:22
czcams.com/video/EPRIvSAgyr0/video.html
The ONLY thing Moffat did that was worse than anything Chibnall did was to pass his job to Chibnall.
Dont cremate me is literally so fine. Evil person does evil thing... oh my god. If it wasnt religious no one would care.
why literally no one talks bout how he made the Doctor a self-unaware groomer, three times? that alone was enough for me to know the guy has a problem and especially now that I know even more about the things he said
say what you will about the chibnall era, at least it didn't have any nudity gags.
When it comes to the First Doctor, for my own peace of mind I just assume that he's acting sexist just so Mark Gatiss' soldier character doesn't feel too out of place. The guy's in shock, maybe that kind of language and attitude might just help him recover somewhat. It doesn't excuse it, though.
About the ass slap thing
It’s a kitchen cloth
No no he definitely just clapped his hands in that scene
Given the choice of a writer who consistently delivers dull-to-above-average episodes and one who swings for the fences, I'll take the latter, as long as they hit the occasional home run. (I'm not naming names.)
One of the best running gags Harbo Wholmes gave us is saying Moffatt should go to horny jail
Nice vid! Again
I missed out on the stream for this and I've commented on some of these before but I guess I might as well throw in some thoughts on this.
Nightmare in Silver 11 line: I think it's a little unfair to say with 100 percent certainty that Moff wrote that line at the end without some kind of confirmation. Like if we're sticking to lines Moffat himself wrote than we should stick to stuff that we know for sure. That being said I don't think the line is that bad given that 11 does at least seem to be aware it's not a great thing to think and smacks himself afterwards. I think it's fine that we can have characters be a little flawed like this if there's some acknowledgement of this. I also think that when it comes to the Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS and Crimson Horror examples of creepiness it's no small thing that those may have been improvised on set because it then means that Moffat didn't plan on them happening originally and you can't really lay the blame on him. As for the romantic stuff with Clara and 11 I guess that's pretty subjective because I think they have some pretty good chemistry and I can certainly see why both would find each other appealing. Also, I'm not sure if River Song is really a huge problem here given that a)it seems like Eleven was kind of moving on from her at this point given his attitude in Name of the Doctor b)we see in Husbands that River is in a pretty open relationship with other dudes even after she was married to the Doc so it seems like both of them are cool with having some folks on the side.
Dark Water: This one I've definitely rambled on before but to try and be quick you can't use Danny feeling that he's cold as conclusive evidence of anything because he's in a simulation that's selling a lie to people. Also, it seems pretty clear that the whole point of DON'T CREMATE ME in the context of the story is to have the villains make sure they can still use the bodies of the dead as Cybermen (since you can't really convert a pile of ash with no DNA). And again the fact that this whole thing is run by a well-known liar brings at least some doubt to the whole thing. The only thing we can say with any certainty is that the dead were being taken throughout various periods of time and being made into Cybermen. While that's definitely not a great thing to happen that's a pretty separate issue from whether they are feeling being burned alive and so it would have to be a separate complaint from whether or not you can show that on Doctor Who.
Asylum "never kill you": I feel like it's pretty obvious the Dalek is messing with the Doctor there when saying the Doctor's hatred has been what has been preventing them killing him. They've definitely tried to kill him a lot but there's a suggestion there that subconciously it's been preventing them from going through with it, but mainly it's to stick it to the Doctor that he's a bit of a hypocrite or a failure for revelling in hate when he's condemning the Daleks for it, obviously it's not the same thing but it makes sense why a villain would approach something like that.
Witch's Familiar Dalek thing: I don't see why the Daleks being full of hate and the tank adding additional potential hate can't co-exist. The Daleks are shown to be plenty bad on their own in this story.
Deep Breath Amy's legs line: I don't see how this is very problematic at all. 12's observation is that if Amy was in this situation Amy's legs would be long enough to help get them out. There's nothing sexual implied in the statement. It ends up being a dig on Clara being short but that's not too bad.
Deep Breath Veil line: I feel like Vastra's point is not that she's literally saying the Veil went away when Clara stopped noticing it but rather she decided to take it off once it was no longer something Clara was making note of.
God the Series 9 opener is so utter shite. I hate to be a negative nancy but it really is the pits of Who. What was Moffat thinking with that Dalek retcon? And not letting Davros or the Doctor fundamentally change and evolve because "same old same old look deconstruction oh wait no it's not it's just the same shit again cause I dunno, poetry or something" was Moffat's entire writing style for 2015 Who. Chibnall is *very* flawed but at least he sticks to his changes and tries to move the foundations of the show forward instead of running around in circles wasting everyone's time.
I prefer what happened with Davros in Witch's Familiar, basically duping the Doctor and the audience for a bit on him having a change of heart for the sake of scheme, then basically what ended up happening with the Master and Chibnall where we went on a pretty big arc where Missy was trying to do better and sadly got killed...and then the Master returns in S12 going all crazy and stuff without any real mention of any of those events. I also think a lot of the Timeless Children stuff has had a lot of running around in circles with the Doctor basically learning the same lesson a couple times (as someone reminded me recently).
Dark water is in very poor taste
Also a canon fixer for the awful thing in the which’s furmillia missy made the dalek casing like that to trick Clara and said to her this is how the dalek casing works
I still think that steven or rtd's writing is nowhere near as bad as chibnall's. I personally think that comparing steven to chibnall is just reaching. No hate to chibnall but he really shouldn't have been chosen to write for doctor who.
The Witch's familiar contradicts itself - think of what the Doctor says about the Dalek sewer.
Besides the stuff about the driving instructor, I honestly don't think Space and Time is that bad? The power dynamic between Amy and Rory as a married couple and the Doctor (who are pretty firm friends by this point in the series) is entirely different than Clara as the sole companion who doesn't seem fully comfortable with the Doctor until the very end of Series 7. I guess there's an argument to be made that it's problematic on a metatextual level, but to me it just comes across as banter between friends who probably have a good grasp of each other's boundaries. Also, it was written for Comic Relief which didn't shy away from more adult content (though usually later into the night) at the time.
the thing that makes me angriest about the dalek thing is that Moffat had almost got it right in Into The Dalek? the idea that the Dalek Machine is constantly feeding fascist rhetoric to the Dalek Mutant is good commentary on how fascist radicalisation happens IRL, tho Into the Dalek also messed up some stuff about that. But TMA/TWF basically made it so that the blame is *entirely* on the Dalek Machines
when did you *take your veil off*? when you stopped "seeing it", metaphorically man., she took it off when Clara stopped judging her appearance
If you find that insulting, watch Moffats last Sitcom Coupling, the first three series (regarded by many fans as the peak), there is an annoying sexist Character called Jeff Murdock, whose seemingly only purpose is to crack sexist jokes (And he is regarded by many Fans as the best Character). Series 4 has no Jeff in it, and it's my favourite series of this Show.
have you ever thought that those things were done because they NEWE that someday in the future a youtuber would call everyone's attention to them for whatever reason.
Doctor Who is a fantastic show that sometimes gets held hostage by terrible sex jokes and a gross misunderstanding of feminism
Vastra says she took the Veil off. You are really nitpicking because you want to.
Yes Clara has seen other faces of the Doctor but she hasn't lost hers before. That's the point. She isn't upset that the new Doctor looks old it's that he acts old and angry and doesn't have the child like wonder that the War Doctor and old 11 had. The Caretaker establishes that 11 isn't her type. Danny is.
I don't remember a lot of Moffat's later work in Doctor Who
I think I repressed it lol
You not being able to remember says a lot
just like how this experience of mine says a lot: even in the very first episode of his era I was more like 'oh, this really is a damn 10 years old series'
If chibnall started with series 10 he would have got his og arc then done flux with covid so might have worked better
OK I get that the 'don't cremate me' thing probably affected you personally, but your constant bashing of this episode is getting a bit tiresome now. It's been five years, let it go. There are those who actually enjoy when Doctor Who gets dark and gritty, especially where the Cybermen are concerned. If it didn't work for you, that's fine, just accept it and move on. But to keep coming back to that episode like you did in your Cybercember review is just beating a dead horse. Dark Water / Death in Heaven is a grim, unapologetically morbid episode, and that's why it's great. Get over it.
Can you do the worst Chris Chibnall moments
He would have to do a week's worth of work.
@@leejones8582 Obviously, Dull/Underexplored would be dropped, they are not as bad as the Depths of Bad Moffat-ness
11:20 To be fair however, apart from newborn mutants (e.g. genesis of the daleks) i don't believe that we have seen a mutant be aggresive for no reason. if anything when the mutant directly comes into conversation with the doctor/ a companion they start to develop and change, generally betraying the still sealed off daleks. Picture it like the shell keeps their worldview narrow.
In Resurrection of the Daleks a Dalek mutant escapes it's casing and goes for one of the soldiers neck and in Rememberance of the Daleks one of the Imperial Dalek mutant strangles the Doctor with its organic pincer.
@@luckystardoomnjeraxivyurie5415 understandable, always glad to learn more and get corrected
It's just a bit of brilliant escapist entertainment to me, I don't take things too seriously. After all, the doctor flies about in a small phone box.
None of these really hinder my enjoyment of the show in any way, like yes I actually thought the first doctor being kinda sexist was funny i take as that he doesn’t really believe these things just adopts the attitude of the time period he had lived in to just blend in a bit more
I'd still rather take a Moffat era with lows and high than a chibnall era that's entirely poorly written and Ill conceived 🤷♂️
Firstly, I think the line about Clara's skirt demonstrates one of two things: either there is still a bit of the cybertechnology in the Doctor's brain at that point, or the Doctor realises he's not as blind to Clara's attractiveness as he'd like to think. Also, can we please stop pretending there's something wrong with somebody fancying somebody else? Jenna Coleman's very pretty and there's nothing you can do about it, frankly.
As to your comment about Michael Grade being a bad person purely because of his political beliefs... that's just not on, frankly. I'm not as left-wing as I used to be, but I'm still left of centre. However, I have friends and family who are on the right, and I love them dearly. Just because someone believes something you don't, it doesn't inherently make them a bad person.
The 'don't cremate me' line, while near the knuckle, is a wonderfully dark piece of storytelling. Any opposition to it seems to hinge on the presupposition that children aren't clever enough to distinguish fact from fiction, which for the most part they are. Obviously, there will be children - and adults - unable to make that distinction, but Doctor Who is television for the masses, not specific groups within those masses.
Women slapping men is not as acceptable these days as it was then, but it is a very useful way of displaying emotion. It's very much show don't tell. In fact, it's a trope used in other shows that children watch, in particular soap operas. Again though, it's flattering the audience that they can understand the difference between a TV programme and reality.
There's no Dalek retcon, let's be honest. The idea that emotions drive the Daleks to exterminate as been implied since their early days. Certainly, their desire to explode another neutron bomb in the first story is driven by fear and a need to survive, both of which are emotional responses.
The First Doctor in Twice Upon a Time is clearly written as a cipher to certain attitudes of the sixties, especially up to 1966. Women were expected to do certain things around the house, so the Doctor's lines reflect that. Twelve's responses to those moments are modern standards imposing themselves on history. It's a lot smarter than people give it credit for.
As for Rory being distracted by Amy's skirt, why's that a problem? Again, it's this weird prudishness that's been growing in the last 10 or 15 years. I mean, how dare a man fancy his wife. Absolutely scandalous behaviour!
The thin fat gay couple is most probably a comment on labels being more important than names in the future. It's a good sci-fi idea which sadly isn't explored enough, I don't think.
Vastra's veil scene is beautifully written. Yes, she removed the veil herself, but only once Clara became unaware of it. She was no longer paying attention to what Vastra was doing, so the veil was removed - possibly by Jenny - during Clara's response. I do despair sometimes at people's seeming inability to infer something metaphorical from scenes such as that. It's common these days for people to not understand that a person can be in one scene and then in a completely different scene if they haven't seen them walk through a door, or drive to a location. That last one happens a lot in American dramas, I've noticed.
Excellent post, and I agree with every point.
excuses
To be fair, 11 kissed Rory as well, a straight married man. However, I don't see anybody else calling that sexual assault. And also at 9:51, when you say that the timeless child doesn't affect the Doctor's character...well, it does. Otherwise, everything else I agree with.
wasn't this from the end of the bells of saint john? 1:32
Moffat fancied Sophia Myles.
The Eleventh Doctor cancelled
This is the worst of 11, what is this writing? I do like Moffat but his worst series is 7 Bart b I like part A a specially for angels take Manhattan I really like that story but this? It’s terrible 11 is my second fave dr but his and Clara is toxic and disgusting the only doctor relationship I like is dr and river yaz and 13 and Charley and 8th dr (Charley is a big finish companion) also the hole dalek casing controls the mutant isn’t cannon it was only for the plot which wasn’t that good and makes no sense. Chibnall even acknowledged that it’s the dalek mutant not the casing that does all the hate.
Still better that the Chinball era.
I dunno... Dull/Underexplored is arguably better than horny angstbucketing
I don 't like how you completely dismiss peoples opinions as wrong when they argue that Clara being put into the Dalek tank was never intended to be a retcon. It was clear to me that her being in the tank was simply there to create the scene at the end where the Doctor wants to shoot her. The whole translation thing is just there to explain away how Clara is able to control the Dalek when she isn't a Dalek mutant.
He dismisses everything that isn't his opinion.
I liked as of the Daleks and it has issues a lot not gonna deny