They did indeed form the neck of the cartridge after they put the BP pellet in it, and they continued to do this with cordite as well. If memory serves the LE was designed from the ground up to be smokeless. The issue was coming up with a propellant they could make domestically. So they went whith BP. In order to get as much power out of it as possible, until they had smokeless figured out, they made the compressed pellets. The 303 Mark I actually had higher chamber pressures than all the other Marks of 303-including Mk VII. So no worries shooting MKVII or commercial ammo out of the older Lee Metfords, MLEs, and Martini Enfields-assuming they're in good condition that is.
The Lee-Enfield action is practically impossible to blow up - part due to their metallurgy with relatively soft, ductile but tough steel and the fact they’ll elastically deform before letting go and by then the barrel is often split. I’ve witnessed guys putting serious deliberate overloads in one and it wouldn’t quit.
@@ThreenaddiesRexMegistus You might find it difficult to blow to pieces, but that doesn't mean an overcharge won't wreck it. When the British Army went over to 7.62 NATO, they found that the SMLE was not safe to fire it continuously, but the No.4 would take it. The Indian Ishapores are made to locally available SMLE plans from higher-grade steel and can take 7.62 indefinitely without breaking.
You are forgiven for not fully translating British ordnance hieroglyphics. Had to do that once on a No 4 MkI-II. Made at Long Branch and re-arsenaled at Fazarkley to a MkII and restocked with a stock from a rifle taken out of service. Took a while to figure it all out.
I have a No4 Mk1, and I've never thought of reloading for it with black powder. Well, next time I do a batch of .303 I'm going to try this. Thanks, Jake.
Very interesting. You are correct the SMLE Mk III* was approved on 2nd January 1916 in order to speed manufacture, the most obvious items omitted were the magazine cut off, the long range sights, the rear sight windage adjustment, the shape of the cocking piece was altered from button shaped [like yours] to a flat sided [similar to the No 4]. Although this depended upon parts already stocked in the factories, not all Mk III*'s came out of the factories conforming exactly, although some parts may also have been replaced during repair in the last 100 years depending what the unit armourer/gunsmith had in their spares inventory.
The original .303 black powder rifle would have been the lee metford(metford rifled barrel). The reason for the change to enfield rifling was because of the change to cordite causing erosion to the metford rifling rather quickly. Erosion still occurs with cordite and enfield rifling but not as quickly. The British loaded cordite .303 the same way un-necked cartridge and then necking it after the charge was thrown.
It is interesting to me that you say that they loaded the cordite this way, too, because I have pulled apart .303 Mark VII cartridges and I was able to get most of the cordite out without breaking it (I removed some sticks from the middle and then the rest just came out). I wonder why they couldn't have loaded it that way, in reverse?
Very interesting about the case being sized after the black powder pellet was in. That sounds like a super compressed loading. I've always wanted a full length .303 Enfield and have often thought of reloading rounds in black powder for it.
This was one of your best and thank you for attempting to replicate "Compressed Black Powder" I think the Lee's rifling, originally Metford was designed for black powder. I always considered my Lee Enfields, 1 through 5 to be true EOTWAWKI guns, just wich there was more ammo around. Now we know we can use black powder if necessary.
The important thing to remember about the 1850fps .303 Mk1 BP ballistics is that the Lee-Metford had a 30 inch barrel. The SMLE is closer to 26 inches, so you might be losing a bit there.
Indeed, there is a reason why the SMLE is called the *'Short"* Magazine Lee Enfield, as it was a 'Short Rifle", between the Full Length Infantry Rifle Musket and the Shorter Carbine issued to Cavalry.
The Lee-Metford also had different rifling which was borrowed from the Martini Henry and was designed for black powder loads. Not sure if that makes a different at all. But my hunch is that the majority of the velocity gap is coming from the 20gr difference in powder charge. Awesome video.
I have actually reloaded 303 British with the 70 grains of compressed black powder for a Martini-Enfield carbine that I own. Regularly loading the cases like he did in the video, it will only take about 55 grains of powder. The way I managed to fit 70 grains is, a bit crude, but it did work and there is a noticeable difference in performance. To fit 70 grains of powder, (I used 3f, shouldn't matter given you're compressing it) I would load the powder in thirds. 1 third, shake and or vibrate it so the powder would settle down, then, I would take a priming rod from an old lee loader kit, and a plastic mallet and simply crush that powder down. Again, crude for sure. Do that 3 times and the powder will be compressed all around the case and there will be just enough space just below the neck to seat the bullet all the way. I did this all originally with a lee loader kit, but now have a press. The only issue when doing it with the lee loader was that there was a risk of the bullet being hard to seat and ballooning out the neck, but other than that, this method does work for me.
@WillardMcBain it fired just fine, no slower to go off than a regular charge and I didn't find it fouled the bore too badly at all. I used FMJ bullets as well so no grease to soften it. I didn't exactly test a grouping for it but I was able to make some consistent hits out to 100 meters on a regular sized steel silhouette. Casings were left much dirtier as a result however.
FYI, my chrono is realty sensitive to dust & dirt on the sensor windows. Cleaning them with a Q-Tip makes all the worlds difference. Easy box to check. Interesting stuff as always. Many thanks.
I’m glad you commented on the ‘rules’ of powder granulation….that, there ain’t none! I’ve been using 3F in everything for over 50 years with perfect success.
I've heard of a lot of guys that reload buffalo type guns using a drop tube in order to get more black powder into the cases. The longer the tube the more powder you can get in. I heard of one guy that reloaded with a 36" tube. He would put the cartridge on the floor so the charging end of the drop tube would be easy to get to as he was seated. Thanks for the great videos.
as a reloader with 44years of knowledge and experience in many calibers I thought about my old military surplus rifles with black powder but I think it's a good option in the state of our country and it's only going to get much worse.as far as firearms, ammunition and reloading supplies. with barrels kept properly cleaned it can't be no worse than mercury based burden primers .I have data for substitute black powder for cowboy action shooting for rifles and pistols. although I don't shoot them it's good to have the option if necessary. I enjoyed the video. Papa wishing you well 😊
@@Everythingblackpowder So he should know the basics of Vietnamese (language). I was in the Marine Corps at the time and shooting use of the sling was not taught as much as just mentioned. But I learned the value of a sling from the decent gun magazines of the time. Not the poorly camouflaged commercials currently issued
I love the smell and the taste of the black powder smoke and how it hangs around a little while!! Id like to try this in my old Stevens single shot 30-30!! Nice video!!
The .303 British was designed as a smokeless powder cartridge. The only reason black powder was used for a couple of years, is that a decision as to which smokeless powder to use was slow in coming. There wasn't a lot of pressure data for this newfangled powder, so they erred on the side of caution until more data was available. Smokeless development proceeded rapidly for a couple of years, and in 1891 they switched to smokeless powder, and later to cordite.
@@Everythingblackpowder yes, I said it was a black powder round for the first two years, but it was never intended to be a black powder cartridge. It was conceived as a smokeless powder cartridge from the jump. Circumstances prevented the use of smokeless, as the designers intended.
The main reason it was black powder (although designed as a smokeless round) was the rifle at the time was the Lee Metford. They found that the new smokeless rounds eroded the Metford rifling so switch to a black powder load until this could be addressed.
@@kirkstinson7316 well, you are partially correct. The erosion problem didn't manifest itself until the switch was made to cordite. First was black powder, then loose smokeless powder, with no problems. When the military switched to cordite, it became apparent that the somewhat shallow rifling of the L-M was eroding away much too quickly, due to the higher combustion temperature of that propellant.
Excellent. Thank You. I scrolled through some of the the comments & the Medford vs. Enfield rifling has already been explained. Also, there was no 25" barrels until 1903. These were Short Rifles, the barrel length being in between a Rifle & Carbine. This was probably explained also, but I was to lazy to read all of the comments. I recommend "Small Arms Of The World" or "Military Small Arms Of The Twentieth Century". Both make excellent reading. Thank You again for an interesting video.
I recently made up three .303 cartridges for my #1 Mk3 using ~52 grains of 3F under a 150 HDY spire point. Afterwards I started wondering how safe they would be to shoot. Wasn’t sure if I had enough compression for the GOEX powder I used. Another question I had was why couldn’t I get more than 55 grains of powder in the case when the original load was 70. Eventually broke them down. Seeing your video gives me confidence that my loads were safe.
Because BP produces much lower pressures than smokeless across the board, it should be safe in any smokeless proofed rifle or shotgun. Even modern BP guns will handle as much as you can cram in the case.
There are videos on how people fire cases in other weapons to produce .410 shells from .303. You could do that to open the case mouth, then make your compressed pellets and re-form the .303 case mouth by using a full length sizing die or step it down if necessary with other dies until it can be reformed with a .303 die.
Nice video. I know you spend a lot of time making and testing loads plus your normal job. We appreciate it. Maybe you could try triple 7 in the bottle necks like 303 and 30-30. Supposedly is hotter so might get you more speed.
The only actual rule with a basis in fact regarding grain size for a rifle is to pick the one it shoots the best. Amazingly it's the same rule for pistols and smoothbores as well.
Very informative! I had no idea they were originally black powder cartridges, and made that way. I suppose you could make a barrel to blow out the case after annealing, then insert your pressed pellet, lube her up and run into a full length size die….🤔😬😁
I haven't watched many of your videos yet but I like the content so far. I was always curious about the bullet velocity difference in black powder vs smokeless powder. Phil
Blackpowder and the bullet construction 100 years ago really went hand in hand with each other. Cast bullets were limited in velocity for obvious reasons. Early jacketed bullets tended to fail at higher velocities, especially if they hit solid bone. Also, the lower velocity minimized bullet deformation, which allowed for better penetration at lower velocities. The 25-20 & 32-20 are still some of my favorite short range (
Did anyone look if the original black powder cartridge had a larger primer hole in the cartridge base? This is the often-overlooked issue with getting the original sights to register correctly on trapdoor Springfields because they originally had larger primer flash holes to give more ignition energy (about 0.016" bigger on 45-70 cartridge if my memory is correct). The compressed powder is commonly used and is topped with a thin card at times.
Sounds a lot like the pressed black powder charges that been around back then to load 8.15x46R Stutzen. The target loads had a reduced charge that fit down the neck of the case but hunting loads been formed around the load and then necked down in factory. Guess it been a common trick at the end of the black powder era, thanks for digging it up again.
Yes, the Mk III* eliminated the magazine cutoff, It also removed the "indirect fire" sights that were mounted on the left side of the gun on the regular Mk. III
Wrong barrel for black powder. The Metford barrel was for the black powder, but wore to f a st with the cordite. That's when they changed to the Enfield barrel to suit the cordite.
That rifle has Enfield (conventional) style rifling, one turn in 10"... the original load was for a Lee-Metford rifle with Metford rifling (also 10" twist), not suitable for smokeless powders as the extra velocity caused accuracy issues (stripping?). That's why the Enfield armoury changed the rifling to make the Lee-Enfield with it's square cut rifling. I believe the idea with the rounded Metford rifling was to ease fouling and aid cleaning, which of course is not an issue with smokeless. Very interesting results with just ordinary loading techniques. I'd give it a go with 3F if I were you, using your "case full and squish it with the bullet" technique, which makes a lot of sense. Perhaps with the faster powder you could get within 100fps of the original Metford load. Great video... 🙂
Good show thanks like it.i used the left over dust from my powder i mean it look like sand in a 357 and 45 long colt .in the 357 i used 158 grain flatt nose with gas check and bullet lube .holy cow .it sounded like a m80 but shot just fine.thank you like your show.
Nice maybe you should try it with cast just for comparison. Based on my Cap and Ball Revolvers you might be able to get another grain or two of powder with FFFg. It would be an interesting test just for comparison. Love these videos.
That’s really cool, I read about the early 303 black powder rounds. I just couldn’t get beyond the jacket, the copper must scrape the fouling better than lead. I would like to try 32 special bp, been toying with that for a few months. I would think 3f be the right choice, especially with a 20” barrel.
I really enjoy your videos and I have learned a lot from them I hope to learn a lot more so please keep them coming. I have a 1927 model 94 Win. chambered in win. 32 special and a Marlin 336 made in 1950 both good rifles so I would really appreciate you doing a video on black powder loads for the Winchester 32 special, the twist rate in the model 94 is slower, I would like to learn more about it and how well it would preform using black powder. Thanks
I do note that the British had used hollow solid black powder pellets earlier in buckshot prison guard Snider ammunition. Straightish case not bottle necked.
That's interesting that they used that method in a brass case. I'm reproducing the hazard solid cartridges with a nitrocellulose glue or dextrin binder. Compressing the powder will slow the burn rate down the more it is compressed. For pistol cartridges I use 4F for rifles 3F.
Hence the role of the hole. It adjusts the rate of burn and the rate of change of burn. Packing loose powder into a squashed lump is a very different thing entirely.
It did NOT suck very interesting. Beautiful gun too. My SMLE is a typical MK 4 No. 1 but I still love it. Not sure if I'll try this but at least I may give them Speers a try.
Great video! You have almost re-kindled my former passion for BP! When I was in my twenty and thirties, ALL my hunting was black powder. What killed it was when fish and wildlife permanently mandated the use of steel shot for waterfowl which was NOT recommended for my Navy Arms English double shotgun. I would likely start using BP again although where I live it is difficult to obtain. BTW your videos never suck!
Hey, Jacob, you can get bismuth shot now. Safe for muzzleloaders, and legal for waterfowl. Also the closest of all the non-toxics to the same characteristics of lead.
My idea for duplicating the original loading would be putting a smaller diameter decapping pin into a lee Enfield die, but not protruding far enough to pop the primer out, then add bp to the cartridge and run it in so that the decamping pin presses it sideways against the case walls in the die to compress it, while leaving a hole in the middle like the original loading. Then adding more into the empty center hole to get it to pack tighter/get more powder in. Vertical expansion into the case mouth may be a problem though, would have to experiment.
Ups .. I'm back.. another idea - for start - just disolve as much as it will take (we know...bkt much) KNO3 in hot destiled/demi water, and add 1-2% by weight to Your 3F powder, after 30 minutes mix gentle again powder to equilase humidity , and pour in the casings. Then, with wooden stick, that have diameter same as case neck, and rubber/wooden mallet, compact it inside the case (forces go arrround 60°) so it will take more powder that way...and as said before, it will burn a lot faster, ( I know ...even without the hole, tunnel, or space between grains..). Waiting for Your report... Regards ;)
Please try with 3f and 4f to see any differences in velocity is.. My understanding is that when england went from muzzeloading to loaded shells some off the old timers would not switch as the loads were to mild , the die hards were using 4f in there 12 gauge guns and were not happy with the week shells that were loaded
That’s still good, a consistent high 1500’s to low 1600’s. Maybe compressing the charge in the case might let a few more grains in but likely would be inconsistent. Maybe going to FFF might add something but I don’t know.
Actually, I read somewhere (don't recall where) that the first 303's held 80 grains of black. 80 vs 70, it still is hard to wrap my mind around that much compression in a case that size.
Early cartridges had balloon head cases where the case heads were not as thick as more modern case heads which allowed for more powder space. These cases were also weaker in regards to pressure compared to more modern case head designs.
Earlier posters have noted that the round was designed for smokeless and that the pressure was higher than the following cordite rounds. You did say it was almost unique but similar methods were used elsewhere for similar reasons at the time eg Danes and Austrians.
Nice demo. Hard to believe this is what the British stuck with (transitioning to smokeless) all the way up until the 1950s through the Boer War and two World Wars. But it served them well.
I really appreciate this video, Jake! I have an almost identical rifle, but not a huge supply of ammunition. I *DO* have a bucket of hard cast .311 projectiles that would be perfect to experiment with in this platform. Thank you! 😃
If you really wanted to do the pellet thing you could pack an unprimed case full of very lightly dampened ho-made meal up to where the bullet base will seat, form a hole through the middle from the flash hole end with a bicycle spoke, dry it out with vacuum/dessicant for a few weeks, very carefully prime them behind a blast shield, and load as usual. Basically like solid rocket motors are made. The single, hollow kernel might extend the burn rate somewhat and increase velocity compared to granulated powder.
Where I live in England is an old military shooting range that has been there for hundreds of years and I found an old round nose 303 projectile and I have also found numerous casings that just crumble when you pick them up😂 nice to see what that round did 100 years ago.
Might take some experimentation, but you could make a slurry with the powder and wet cast pellet using the casing as a mold and a rod down the middle. Then remove the rod after it has dried. I'm not sure about drying it safely, I don't know how hot might be too hot to encourage faster drying without the risk of ignition. So air drying or freeze drying would be safer. Could be a fun experiment. Might not be able to compress enough powder in though?
Willard - thank you for the tour around .303. I have often played with BP in my P14 and have had "OK" results using 170 GC home cast-n-crimped pure lead. QUESTION: Have you done anything with BP and PINFIRES yet?
You can squeeze inside more powder, in the way like You are pressing it before corning, but considering short(er) barrel, more pressed will burn slower, so no need for that .. try to use that "powder dust" that You throw away after corning, because is less granular than F3/F2... And press it with wooden rod, that have diameter same as neck of the case, with rubber/wooden mallet ... Leave only space for bullet to sit in .. before add some 1-2% by weight water. That can assist to compact it better, but also humidity will increase welocity of the burn by heat transfer (and will not evaporate soon, because its sealed). Another option, use faster BP, as You already mentioned - ad more KNO3, and more S, and less Carbon ...say 78 + 10 + 12 (just for test).. and clean barrel after nicely. Regards from Serbia ;) P.S. - did You tryied cast lead bullets? Could be gamechanger ...
I've never understood why most of the civilian shooters and some younger military shooters never use the sling for shooting which helps in accuracy tremendously. I was taught to use the sling by a lot of WWI guys and my dad who was in WWII. My preference would be the FFFg powder. I can tell by the sound that your rounds aren't up to snuff as they say. It should have that CRACK sound with proper loading. I hope you cleaned that gun before shooting more with the black powder. I've always had to because bad things started.
The US pretty much stopped teaching the use of the sling when the switch over to the AR (M16) happened. I don';t know why. I had been taught it in JROTC, but when I actually enlisted we weren't taught the technique in Basic. For what it is worth Plunging Fire was also dropped as a machine gun technique.
The old MK6 round, 215gr cupro nickel bullet, i actually have 30 rounds of the original stuff.. 215 gr loads. Also have cordite charged rounds. All. I also have some of those bullets your testing with. My Lee Enfield is a #4mk1 savage built rifle with the 2 groove rifled barrel..i wonder how that would do...🤔🤔 Maybe a project for a rainy day..
The .303 started with the Lee Medford, the predecessor to the Lee Enfield rifle. The Black Powder Medford had a slightly different rifling. But with most modernized militaries now developing and fielding Smokeless Rifles, they were developed into the .303 Smokeless Lee Enfield and slowly phased out by the Boer war
As I’m new to both (recently acquired) I can’t find a single video or instructions on how to. So I deeply appreciate. But even if you don’t Thanks for what you bring to us.
Very good video. I want to ask. Im from South Africa and things are scarce here. I want to make my own BP but do not have a hydrolic press. If I make BP with the screen will it shoot the same as the pucked with volume by weight or will velocity differ. I don't mind using more to get better velocities. Thanks. Keep up the great videos
the brits did their cordite rounds the same way! charged then the necking! i know they changed the rifling between the blackpowder and smokeless from a rounded shallower groove (Metford)to a sharper deep groove (Enfield) because the smokeless was burning the old style grooves out particularly at the throat! they changed the twist rate a couple times with cartridge changes too if i remember right, by the way Will, have you had it out of the stock? i've seen some ratty barrels on Enfield's and one blow out on the range where a rust canker ate into the bore the guy shooting almost got his burnt good from it!!
They did indeed form the neck of the cartridge after they put the BP pellet in it, and they continued to do this with cordite as well. If memory serves the LE was designed from the ground up to be smokeless. The issue was coming up with a propellant they could make domestically. So they went whith BP. In order to get as much power out of it as possible, until they had smokeless figured out, they made the compressed pellets. The 303 Mark I actually had higher chamber pressures than all the other Marks of 303-including Mk VII. So no worries shooting MKVII or commercial ammo out of the older Lee Metfords, MLEs, and Martini Enfields-assuming they're in good condition that is.
The real problem was developing a smokeless propellant that would retain stability in the tropics.
The Lee-Enfield action is practically impossible to blow up - part due to their metallurgy with relatively soft, ductile but tough steel and the fact they’ll elastically deform before letting go and by then the barrel is often split. I’ve witnessed guys putting serious deliberate overloads in one and it wouldn’t quit.
@@ThreenaddiesRexMegistus You might find it difficult to blow to pieces, but that doesn't mean an overcharge won't wreck it. When the British Army went over to 7.62 NATO, they found that the SMLE was not safe to fire it continuously, but the No.4 would take it. The Indian Ishapores are made to locally available SMLE plans from higher-grade steel and can take 7.62 indefinitely without breaking.
Steel bullet. Good work! Been reloading 303 brit for 50 yrs. Have 4 of them. Ross. 2 mk111s and a 54 Canadian longbranch. Cheers!
Lee used Metford rifling and black powder .
You are forgiven for not fully translating British ordnance hieroglyphics. Had to do that once on a No 4 MkI-II. Made at Long Branch and re-arsenaled at Fazarkley to a MkII and restocked with a stock from a rifle taken out of service. Took a while to figure it all out.
They are hieroglyphics. I have a mk1** webley revolver with navy broad arrows
I have a No4 Mk1, and I've never thought of reloading for it with black powder. Well, next time I do a batch of .303 I'm going to try this. Thanks, Jake.
I was impressed with the accuracy and lack of problems with that rifle using black powder.
Very interesting. You are correct the SMLE Mk III* was approved on 2nd January 1916 in order to speed manufacture, the most obvious items omitted were the magazine cut off, the long range sights, the rear sight windage adjustment, the shape of the cocking piece was altered from button shaped [like yours] to a flat sided [similar to the No 4]. Although this depended upon parts already stocked in the factories, not all Mk III*'s came out of the factories conforming exactly, although some parts may also have been replaced during repair in the last 100 years depending what the unit armourer/gunsmith had in their spares inventory.
Thanks for the info!
Shooting the Enfield with that lovely cloud of black powder smoke looks extremely historical!
The original .303 black powder rifle would have been the lee metford(metford rifled barrel). The reason for the change to enfield rifling was because of the change to cordite causing erosion to the metford rifling rather quickly. Erosion still occurs with cordite and enfield rifling but not as quickly. The British loaded cordite .303 the same way un-necked cartridge and then necking it after the charge was thrown.
Might have to give it a try with the hatful substitutes maybe 777 will give some better velocity. I have a 1896 mle that I could try it in.
Had no idea that was how they loaded the cordite. Interesting info
@@OntarioBearHunter yup couldn’t fit it all any other way think they did something similar with the .577/450 cordite ammo too.
It is interesting to me that you say that they loaded the cordite this way, too, because I have pulled apart .303 Mark VII cartridges and I was able to get most of the cordite out without breaking it (I removed some sticks from the middle and then the rest just came out). I wonder why they couldn't have loaded it that way, in reverse?
@@sbreheny it was all done by machine even back then so had to be able to drop the entire charge into the casing.
Very interesting about the case being sized after the black powder pellet was in. That sounds like a super compressed loading. I've always wanted a full length .303 Enfield and have often thought of reloading rounds in black powder for it.
This was one of your best and thank you for attempting to replicate "Compressed Black Powder" I think the Lee's rifling, originally Metford was designed for black powder. I always considered my Lee Enfields, 1 through 5 to be true EOTWAWKI guns, just wich there was more ammo around. Now we know we can use black powder if necessary.
The important thing to remember about the 1850fps .303 Mk1 BP ballistics is that the Lee-Metford had a 30 inch barrel. The SMLE is closer to 26 inches, so you might be losing a bit there.
Excellent point
Yes, I was thinking the same thing
Indeed, there is a reason why the SMLE is called the *'Short"* Magazine Lee Enfield, as it was a 'Short Rifle", between the Full Length Infantry Rifle Musket and the Shorter Carbine issued to Cavalry.
Medford had different rifling as well
The Lee-Metford also had different rifling which was borrowed from the Martini Henry and was designed for black powder loads. Not sure if that makes a different at all. But my hunch is that the majority of the velocity gap is coming from the 20gr difference in powder charge. Awesome video.
I have actually reloaded 303 British with the 70 grains of compressed black powder for a Martini-Enfield carbine that I own. Regularly loading the cases like he did in the video, it will only take about 55 grains of powder. The way I managed to fit 70 grains is, a bit crude, but it did work and there is a noticeable difference in performance. To fit 70 grains of powder, (I used 3f, shouldn't matter given you're compressing it) I would load the powder in thirds. 1 third, shake and or vibrate it so the powder would settle down, then, I would take a priming rod from an old lee loader kit, and a plastic mallet and simply crush that powder down. Again, crude for sure. Do that 3 times and the powder will be compressed all around the case and there will be just enough space just below the neck to seat the bullet all the way. I did this all originally with a lee loader kit, but now have a press. The only issue when doing it with the lee loader was that there was a risk of the bullet being hard to seat and ballooning out the neck, but other than that, this method does work for me.
Interesting. How did it perform?
@WillardMcBain it fired just fine, no slower to go off than a regular charge and I didn't find it fouled the bore too badly at all. I used FMJ bullets as well so no grease to soften it. I didn't exactly test a grouping for it but I was able to make some consistent hits out to 100 meters on a regular sized steel silhouette. Casings were left much dirtier as a result however.
@@Harrison2610 well one of the primary reasons for jacketed bullets was to prevent fouling, so it makes sense it wouldn't have fouled your bore much.
FYI, my chrono is realty sensitive to dust & dirt on the sensor windows. Cleaning them with a Q-Tip makes all the worlds difference. Easy box to check. Interesting stuff as always. Many thanks.
I’m glad you commented on the ‘rules’ of powder granulation….that, there ain’t none! I’ve been using 3F in everything for over 50 years with perfect success.
Thank you
I've heard of a lot of guys that reload buffalo type guns using a drop tube in order to get more black powder into the cases. The longer the tube the more powder you can get in. I heard of one guy that reloaded with a 36" tube. He would put the cartridge on the floor so the charging end of the drop tube would be easy to get to as he was seated. Thanks for the great videos.
Fill the case to the top and take a .310 dia punch and press to compress the powder and then add more to tamp in the case
That's kind of what I was thinking too
as a reloader with 44years of knowledge and experience in many calibers I thought about my old military surplus rifles with black powder but I think it's a good option in the state of our country and it's only going to get much worse.as far as firearms, ammunition and reloading supplies. with barrels kept properly cleaned it can't be no worse than mercury based burden primers .I have data for substitute black powder for cowboy action shooting for rifles and pistols. although I don't shoot them it's good to have the option if necessary. I enjoyed the video. Papa wishing you well 😊
I enjoyed the older gentleman's protocol of using the sling. A proper rifleman.
He’s a Vietnam vet
@@Everythingblackpowder So he should know the basics of Vietnamese (language). I was in the Marine Corps at the time and shooting use of the sling was not taught as much as just mentioned. But I learned the value of a sling from the decent gun magazines of the time. Not the poorly camouflaged commercials currently issued
I love the smell and the taste of the black powder smoke and how it hangs around a little while!! Id like to try this in my old Stevens single shot 30-30!! Nice video!!
The .303 British was designed as a smokeless powder cartridge. The only reason black powder was used for a couple of years, is that a decision as to which smokeless powder to use was slow in coming. There wasn't a lot of pressure data for this newfangled powder, so they erred on the side of caution until more data was available. Smokeless development proceeded rapidly for a couple of years, and in 1891 they switched to smokeless powder, and later to cordite.
It was still initially a black powder cartridge. 🤷♂️
@@Everythingblackpowder yes, I said it was a black powder round for the first two years, but it was never intended to be a black powder cartridge. It was conceived as a smokeless powder cartridge from the jump. Circumstances prevented the use of smokeless, as the designers intended.
lol. No need to repeat yourself, Friend. I’m not disputing what you’re saying. My point is simply that it doesn’t matter.
The main reason it was black powder (although designed as a smokeless round) was the rifle at the time was the Lee Metford. They found that the new smokeless rounds eroded the Metford rifling so switch to a black powder load until this could be addressed.
@@kirkstinson7316 well, you are partially correct. The erosion problem didn't manifest itself until the switch was made to cordite. First was black powder, then loose smokeless powder, with no problems. When the military switched to cordite, it became apparent that the somewhat shallow rifling of the L-M was eroding away much too quickly, due to the higher combustion temperature of that propellant.
Excellent. Thank You. I scrolled through some of the the comments & the Medford vs. Enfield rifling has already been explained. Also, there was no 25" barrels until 1903. These were Short Rifles, the barrel length being in between a Rifle & Carbine. This was probably explained also, but I was to lazy to read all of the comments. I recommend "Small Arms Of The World" or "Military Small Arms Of The Twentieth Century". Both make excellent reading. Thank You again for an interesting video.
I recently made up three .303 cartridges for my #1 Mk3 using ~52 grains of 3F under a 150 HDY spire point. Afterwards I started wondering how safe they would be to shoot. Wasn’t sure if I had enough compression for the GOEX powder I used. Another question I had was why couldn’t I get more than 55 grains of powder in the case when the original load was 70. Eventually broke them down. Seeing your video gives me confidence that my loads were safe.
Because BP produces much lower pressures than smokeless across the board, it should be safe in any smokeless proofed rifle or shotgun. Even modern BP guns will handle as much as you can cram in the case.
They certainly formed the case after loading with cordite strands.
There are videos on how people fire cases in other weapons to produce .410 shells from .303. You could do that to open the case mouth, then make your compressed pellets and re-form the .303 case mouth by using a full length sizing die or step it down if necessary with other dies until it can be reformed with a .303 die.
That was a really good bit of information in this video!
Thankyou for doing it.
Thank you
i love the SOUND of BP... more a chumph than a bang.
Nice video. I know you spend a lot of time making and testing loads plus your normal job. We appreciate it. Maybe you could try triple 7 in the bottle necks like 303 and 30-30. Supposedly is hotter so might get you more speed.
The only actual rule with a basis in fact regarding grain size for a rifle is to pick the one it shoots the best. Amazingly it's the same rule for pistols and smoothbores as well.
Well said
You guys aren't allowed to have that much fun.!! God bless.
I have some Cordite loads. I didn't realize they started with BP. Very informative video thanks.
Thank you
Very informative! I had no idea they were originally black powder cartridges, and made that way.
I suppose you could make a barrel to blow out the case after annealing, then insert your pressed pellet, lube her up and run into a full length size die….🤔😬😁
I have always used 3f in all my rifles. Never had a problem, and ignition seems to be slightly more consistent. If it works well, don't fix it.
I haven't watched many of your videos yet but I like the content so far. I was always curious about the bullet velocity difference in black powder vs smokeless powder. Phil
The original Lee Medford had a 30 inch barrel. The later short magazine, Lee Enfield. SMLE. Short, referring to barrel length came out about 1907
That is a nice SMLE. Great video!!
Thank you
Blackpowder and the bullet construction 100 years ago really went hand in hand with each other. Cast bullets were limited in velocity for obvious reasons. Early jacketed bullets tended to fail at higher velocities, especially if they hit solid bone. Also, the lower velocity minimized bullet deformation, which allowed for better penetration at lower velocities. The 25-20 & 32-20 are still some of my favorite short range (
Did anyone look if the original black powder cartridge had a larger primer hole in the cartridge base? This is the often-overlooked issue with getting the original sights to register correctly on trapdoor Springfields because they originally had larger primer flash holes to give more ignition energy (about 0.016" bigger on 45-70 cartridge if my memory is correct). The compressed powder is commonly used and is topped with a thin card at times.
That was cool. Interesting. Thanks 👍👍
Thank you
Sounds a lot like the pressed black powder charges that been around back then to load 8.15x46R Stutzen. The target loads had a reduced charge that fit down the neck of the case but hunting loads been formed around the load and then necked down in factory. Guess it been a common trick at the end of the black powder era, thanks for digging it up again.
Yes, the Mk III* eliminated the magazine cutoff, It also removed the "indirect fire" sights that were mounted on the left side of the gun on the regular Mk. III
It's amazing how much modern powders change the game
Thank you for the info
Fun video! I wonder if you could get more powder in using a drop tube, unless you did already and didn't mention it.
I could probably squeeze 5 more grains in there with a drop tube.
Wrong barrel for black powder. The Metford barrel was for the black powder, but wore to f a st with the cordite. That's when they changed to the Enfield barrel to suit the cordite.
So what? This rifle still shoots great
That rifle has Enfield (conventional) style rifling, one turn in 10"... the original load was for a Lee-Metford rifle with Metford rifling (also 10" twist), not suitable for smokeless powders as the extra velocity caused accuracy issues (stripping?). That's why the Enfield armoury changed the rifling to make the Lee-Enfield with it's square cut rifling. I believe the idea with the rounded Metford rifling was to ease fouling and aid cleaning, which of course is not an issue with smokeless.
Very interesting results with just ordinary loading techniques. I'd give it a go with 3F if I were you, using your "case full and squish it with the bullet" technique, which makes a lot of sense. Perhaps with the faster powder you could get within 100fps of the original Metford load.
Great video... 🙂
Good show thanks like it.i used the left over dust from my powder i mean it look like sand in a 357 and 45 long colt .in the 357 i used 158 grain flatt nose with gas check and bullet lube .holy cow .it sounded like a m80 but shot just fine.thank you like your show.
fantastic video I never thought about using black powder in my lee Enfield if you had used 150 grain Speer with FFF I wonder how that would have gone.
Thank you
Who would've thought that Lee Enfields efficiently run black powder.
Every puff of smoke reminded me of Volley Fire, Present. . .i thought about trying black powder in '03.
Excuse me that's an '03 Springfield.
Nice maybe you should try it with cast just for comparison. Based on my Cap and Ball Revolvers you might be able to get another grain or two of powder with FFFg. It would be an interesting test just for comparison. Love these videos.
303 cartridge is the most weird looking cartridge
jake is the best person to follow for black powder shooting
Weirdest looking? Nah nah, that award goes to the 7.62 Nagant cartridge. ^.-.^
Id love to see more experimental loads with the 303 British maybe some interesting targets like gel or ham bones
I load a few calibers in BP, I use normally 3F and a 30” drop tube to get the most in the case.
That’s really cool, I read about the early 303 black powder rounds. I just couldn’t get beyond the jacket, the copper must scrape the fouling better than lead. I would like to try 32 special bp, been toying with that for a few months. I would think 3f be the right choice, especially with a 20” barrel.
Looked good.Bet it smelt good too. Cheers from Australia.
I really enjoy your videos and I have learned a lot from them I hope to learn a lot more so please keep them coming. I have a 1927 model 94 Win. chambered in win. 32 special and a Marlin 336 made in 1950 both good rifles so I would really appreciate you doing a video on black powder loads for the Winchester 32 special, the twist rate in the model 94 is slower, I would like to learn more about it and how well it would preform using black powder. Thanks
Thank you but I don’t own a 32 special
I do note that the British had used hollow solid black powder pellets earlier in buckshot prison guard Snider ammunition. Straightish case not bottle necked.
That's interesting that they used that method in a brass case. I'm reproducing the hazard solid cartridges with a nitrocellulose glue or dextrin binder. Compressing the powder will slow the burn rate down the more it is compressed.
For pistol cartridges I use 4F for rifles 3F.
Hence the role of the hole. It adjusts the rate of burn and the rate of change of burn. Packing loose powder into a squashed lump is a very different thing entirely.
It did NOT suck very interesting. Beautiful gun too. My SMLE is a typical MK 4 No. 1 but I still love it. Not sure if I'll try this but at least I may give them Speers a try.
Great video! You have almost re-kindled my former passion for BP! When I was in my twenty and thirties, ALL my hunting was black powder. What killed it was when fish and wildlife permanently mandated the use of steel shot for waterfowl which was NOT recommended for my Navy Arms English double shotgun.
I would likely start using BP again although where I live it is difficult to obtain. BTW your videos never suck!
Would some mylar wraps help?
(sold at midway or any reloading supply)
Hey, Jacob, you can get bismuth shot now. Safe for muzzleloaders, and legal for waterfowl. Also the closest of all the non-toxics to the same characteristics of lead.
Great video as always! Could I put in a request for a video on black powder .357 magnum?
Greetings from Poland! ❤❤❤
Howdy
I have wanted a SMLE for quite some time. Now i real want one. Thats a pretty good setup with blackpowder.
It worked pretty well
🇨🇦 THANK YOU,,VERY USEFULL INFO
Thank you. I was able to squeeze 71.5gr in a 303 case and tested some yesterday. I’ll be doing a video on that as well.
Man, you gotta try that with 3F and 4F I liked it
We just might do that
My idea for duplicating the original loading would be putting a smaller diameter decapping pin into a lee Enfield die, but not protruding far enough to pop the primer out, then add bp to the cartridge and run it in so that the decamping pin presses it sideways against the case walls in the die to compress it, while leaving a hole in the middle like the original loading. Then adding more into the empty center hole to get it to pack tighter/get more powder in. Vertical expansion into the case mouth may be a problem though, would have to experiment.
Ups .. I'm back.. another idea - for start - just disolve as much as it will take (we know...bkt much) KNO3 in hot destiled/demi water, and add 1-2% by weight to Your 3F powder, after 30 minutes mix gentle again powder to equilase humidity , and pour in the casings. Then, with wooden stick, that have diameter same as case neck, and rubber/wooden mallet, compact it inside the case (forces go arrround 60°) so it will take more powder that way...and as said before, it will burn a lot faster, ( I know ...even without the hole, tunnel, or space between grains..). Waiting for Your report... Regards ;)
Nice shooting Jake my friend and the 303 black power was okay......Thanks 👍
Old F-4 Phantom 2 fighter pilot Shoe🇺🇸
Thank you
Please try with 3f and 4f to see any differences in velocity is.. My understanding is that when england went from muzzeloading to loaded shells some off the old timers would not switch as the loads were to mild , the die hards were using 4f in there 12 gauge guns and were not happy with the week shells that were loaded
Mark 111* has mo magazine cutoff, no volley sights, no piling swivel, and no windage adjustment on rear sight
That’s still good, a consistent high 1500’s to low 1600’s. Maybe compressing the charge in the case might let a few more grains in but likely would be inconsistent. Maybe going to FFF might add something but I don’t know.
Actually, I read somewhere (don't recall where) that the first 303's held 80 grains of black. 80 vs 70, it still is hard to wrap my mind around that much compression in a case that size.
Early cartridges had balloon head cases where the case heads were not as thick as more modern case heads which allowed for more powder space. These cases were also weaker in regards to pressure compared to more modern case head designs.
Earlier posters have noted that the round was designed for smokeless and that the pressure was higher than the following cordite rounds. You did say it was almost unique but similar methods were used elsewhere for similar reasons at the time eg Danes and Austrians.
I said the power level was similar to a 3030 round loaded with unique powder. Unique is a brand of powder made by Alliant.
Ah! Fair enough.@@Everythingblackpowder
Could have an early Lee Medford barrel, basically polygonal rifling designed to reduce fouling.
Nice demo. Hard to believe this is what the British stuck with (transitioning to smokeless) all the way up until the 1950s through the Boer War and two World Wars. But it served them well.
It sure did
I really appreciate this video, Jake! I have an almost identical rifle, but not a huge supply of ammunition. I *DO* have a bucket of hard cast .311 projectiles that would be perfect to experiment with in this platform. Thank you! 😃
Thank you
@@Everythingblackpowder Keep On SMOKIN! LOL
If you really wanted to do the pellet thing you could pack an unprimed case full of very lightly dampened ho-made meal up to where the bullet base will seat, form a hole through the middle from the flash hole end with a bicycle spoke, dry it out with vacuum/dessicant for a few weeks, very carefully prime them behind a blast shield, and load as usual. Basically like solid rocket motors are made. The single, hollow kernel might extend the burn rate somewhat and increase velocity compared to granulated powder.
Where I live in England is an old military shooting range that has been there for hundreds of years and I found an old round nose 303 projectile and I have also found numerous casings that just crumble when you pick them up😂 nice to see what that round did 100 years ago.
Might take some experimentation, but you could make a slurry with the powder and wet cast pellet using the casing as a mold and a rod down the middle. Then remove the rod after it has dried.
I'm not sure about drying it safely, I don't know how hot might be too hot to encourage faster drying without the risk of ignition.
So air drying or freeze drying would be safer. Could be a fun experiment. Might not be able to compress enough powder in though?
Willard - thank you for the tour around .303. I have often played with BP in my P14 and have had "OK" results using 170 GC home cast-n-crimped pure lead.
QUESTION: Have you done anything with BP and PINFIRES yet?
Not yet
@@Everythingblackpowder ....waiting patiently and optimistically :)
You can squeeze inside more powder, in the way like You are pressing it before corning, but considering short(er) barrel, more pressed will burn slower, so no need for that .. try to use that "powder dust" that You throw away after corning, because is less granular than F3/F2... And press it with wooden rod, that have diameter same as neck of the case, with rubber/wooden mallet ... Leave only space for bullet to sit in .. before add some 1-2% by weight water. That can assist to compact it better, but also humidity will increase welocity of the burn by heat transfer (and will not evaporate soon, because its sealed). Another option, use faster BP, as You already mentioned - ad more KNO3, and more S, and less Carbon ...say 78 + 10 + 12 (just for test).. and clean barrel after nicely. Regards from Serbia ;) P.S. - did You tryied cast lead bullets? Could be gamechanger ...
I've never understood why most of the civilian shooters and some younger military shooters never use the sling for shooting which helps in accuracy tremendously. I was taught to use the sling by a lot of WWI guys and my dad who was in WWII. My preference would be the FFFg powder. I can tell by the sound that your rounds aren't up to snuff as they say. It should have that CRACK sound with proper loading. I hope you cleaned that gun before shooting more with the black powder. I've always had to because bad things started.
The US pretty much stopped teaching the use of the sling when the switch over to the AR (M16) happened. I don';t know why. I had been taught it in JROTC, but when I actually enlisted we weren't taught the technique in Basic. For what it is worth Plunging Fire was also dropped as a machine gun technique.
The old MK6 round, 215gr cupro nickel bullet, i actually have 30 rounds of the original stuff.. 215 gr loads. Also have cordite charged rounds. All. I also have some of those bullets your testing with. My Lee Enfield is a #4mk1 savage built rifle with the 2 groove rifled barrel..i wonder how that would do...🤔🤔
Maybe a project for a rainy day..
Very Paul Harrell-esque
Thank you
You know, you could really piss some folks off by loading up some fffg in it and see the comments section go crazy. Food for thought.
I wonder if Starline would sell you un-necked 303 for experimentation.
Then he's gotta neck it though.
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine As long as it is annealed beforehand, it should form easily.
I have some old cordite rounds for .303 British but I never knew they loaded it with black powder.
The .303 started with the Lee Medford, the predecessor to the Lee Enfield rifle. The Black Powder Medford had a slightly different rifling. But with most modernized militaries now developing and fielding Smokeless Rifles, they were developed into the .303 Smokeless Lee Enfield and slowly phased out by the Boer war
You can try pressing your homemade meal powder directly inside the case in similar way like you make pucks.
Really Cool.
I might try this in the future sometime. I have all the stuff!
I used a vibrating toothbrush and a small nail to settle the bp just to get as much as possible seams to work out fine
Nicely done.
Thank you
I know it’s a boring topic but any chance getting a cleaning video on the 1873 and snider?
Oh I suppose there’s a chance
As I’m new to both (recently acquired) I can’t find a single video or instructions on how to. So I deeply appreciate. But even if you don’t Thanks for what you bring to us.
Polasonto wood seems perfect for black powder it's left to season for years and smells nice when burned what do you think?
I’m not familiar with that one
good presentation, thanks again. Did you have much trouble with the necked down cartridge?
I don’t think so
Looks like you have a smokeless HV barrel. The black powder was lastly used in the No.1***.
Very good video. I want to ask. Im from South Africa and things are scarce here. I want to make my own BP but do not have a hydrolic press. If I make BP with the screen will it shoot the same as the pucked with volume by weight or will velocity differ. I don't mind using more to get better velocities. Thanks. Keep up the great videos
It’s not quite as good but it’s better than nothing.
Worse case, it won't be the fastest or cleanest boom dirt, but still well within the realm of 'dropping baddies" velocities.
The good old smoke of war
Good video
Thank you
the brits did their cordite rounds the same way! charged then the necking! i know they changed the rifling between the blackpowder and smokeless from a rounded shallower groove (Metford)to a sharper deep groove (Enfield) because the smokeless was burning the old style grooves out particularly at the throat! they changed the twist rate a couple times with cartridge changes too if i remember right, by the way Will, have you had it out of the stock? i've seen some ratty barrels on Enfield's and one blow out on the range where a rust canker ate into the bore the guy shooting almost got his burnt good from it!!
Thank you. This rifle is in really good shape
Refreshing break from the shit show of the last couple weeks. Many thanks.
what shit show?
Thank you