Experimenting with pre-contact paint
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- čas přidán 12. 05. 2024
- A casual experiment that I decided to film. In which I mix fake ochre with fake sturgeon glue with fake bear grease to make fake authenti-paint.
If I were to try the paint again, I would use less of each base and more water. I also wonder if there are any period feasible emulsifiers to help things blend nicely.
Another idea I had is that maybe the paint could be allowed to harden into a block and then wetted before applying, like watercolour. This would circumvent the congealing issue by letting it congeal beforehand. No idea if that would work.
I see a lot of potential in the idea of the marrow brush, but my design is not very good. I think they should use more end grain rather than the sides, I really should have looked up some pictures beforehand, but laziness.
Here's a real example which should be a lot better. collections.rom.on.ca/objects...
Link to patreon if you are so inclined.
www.patreon.com/user?u=3998481
Pre-contact paint sounds like a pun for spraypaint
The hide glue is the binder and the grease slowed the drying time. I would guess that sturgeon glue was used because it is water resistant. I would make the paint the consistency of ink. Make the bone shape like a chisel and stamp your line with the edge.👍✌✌
Very cool concept! I'm jealous of that sweet coat.
Mortar and pestles are so useful, surprised they aren't a common part of kitchens anymore. I inherited one from my great grandmother and it's constantly come in handy.
Also reminds me over in Maidu park we have a ton of archaeological remnants of mortars carved into the rocks by the Maidu over the centuries.
Like seeing someone actually replicating the old way of doing things .
Suet vs muscle fat could be a further iteration. As far as I know the suet often comes from the kidney fat that is hard at a higher temperature than muscle fat
I hear its pretty hard to get suet in the U.S but can confirm its way harder than most fats at room temp
The internet consensus for a bear grease replacement seems to be pig tallow. Maybe try that for round 2.
What a rad experiment!
Try scoring the marrow to create resevoirs for the paint similar to a fountain pen nib. That may let the "serrations" act more like bristles and flex. This is pure speculation, but I'm a leatherworker so its not totally coming out of my ass. Really interesting stuff!
Very cool workswell
that's very interesting for ancient european experimental archeology, too. They had the same stuff at hand.
@@Another-Address of course. The only difference is the time. The middle east has around 7000 years as a head start against europe. And what we could see in america 400 years ago, we had in europe 4000 years ago.
The Inca empire just entered bronze age when it was destroyed. The aztecs and other north american tribes were copper age cultures with a heavy focus still on stone tools.
That means that native american technology is helpful in understanding our far past in europe and even older times of the middle east. There are of course differences, but they are similar enough to build a connection.
Look at the armor. Inuit, Beotuk, Algonquin, Sibirian and interestingly enough Mycenean dendra armor are very similar constructed (different material but the plates are put in similar ways, overlapping plates, skirts, back shields, lamellar helmets) and I think they have their origin somewhere in the mammoth steppe of central asia many thousands of years ago.
We have to remember that the Inuit of the Thule culture entered america only 2000 years ago, so there was a connection and a very slow exchange of knowlage between asia and america.
Sturgeon glue vs. hide glue... I watch a guitar luthier's channel and he prefers "fish glue" to hide glue because it doesn't set quite as fast. With guitar repairs you need to be able to get the glue on, get the pieces put together correctly, and then the clamps put on... all before the glue gets too hard.
Sturgeon glue hits different.
I have a project like this coming up myself. This is very informative. If you are wanting a dead sturgeon we have one in Scotland you could have.
Cool! Always like to see how older paints and pigments were made and applied, as we're so used to just going to like Home Depot or something and grabbing pre-made paints and brushes. I'm sure with practice and time you'll get the process down more, mate. :)
really interesting project. one question: do you think the paint recipe could have contained a “mordant” as well? usually, the mordant is in the form of a mineral, and it chemically binds the dye/paint molecules to the fibers, resulting in long-lasting color.
many minerals present in the Americas have this mordant effect; in some cases it might be a natural result of the pigment used.
one example of paint with a mordant would be “Maya Blue”, a long-lasting blue pigment from pre-Colombian Mesoamerica, which is made from indigo and a unique form of clay (today called palygorskite, found across Southern U.S.)
Very interesting experiment. I like this video. I would have used lard as the fat, pigs and bears are both omnivores.
I wonder if there are other fixatives you can either mix in or add in a second layer over the first to make the paint stick better.
Mind you, the second paint which was thinner, may have been able to permeate the leather a bit, which would help it stick tremendously, so multiple thin coats might be the trick.
If you decide to try some other ratios, or find any other paint recipes, I'd love a follow up to this video.
Maybe try half the charcoal, and half again to two times as much of your chosen fat substance. and make 2-3 coats with time to soak in between applications (it may be hard to keep the paint pot from setting up in that time) but leathers and hides absorb fat, so if that is a higher ratio in the mix, it should in theory help things set in. I think cornstarch might be able to help act as a fixative, but may lighten/dampen the color a bit. It's not part of the recipe, but is a material people would have access to. I have zero experience with this type of paint and am just trying to reason things out in my head, so I could be way off.
As always, love your work, thank you for the good video content.
I always enjoy your hands-on scholership. Although I must say, it's a pity you can't have a pack of female experimental acheologists working with you. That is a vital component of recreation that is sadly lacking across the board everywhere. They would have slightly dampened the hide, stretched it between a pair or so of hands, and chosen the one with the steadiest hand to apply the paint. Ah, well, excellently done as usual.
I wonder what was used for white paint? Chalk, shell, ash, etc
I don't know about the other two, but ash doesn't work, the paint ends up gray and caustic.
lime or zinc ore can make white as can lead. not sure what would be used in the northern americas
mineral-based paints (chalk, kaolinite, other white rocks) would be my guess. you can find some very vibrant colors in natural clay across the americas.
Don't cook your hide glue at such a high temperature. You are likely ruining it by boiling. The best temperature zone is between 140f -150f. Going above 180f will destroy the glue.
If you want some ochre, I'd be happy to mail you some from the other end of lake ontario just south of those bon echo paintings.
Thank you for the offer, but I wouldn't be comfortable with that.
Wouldn't you want to use a paint on something not flexible like wood or stone and a dye on something that is going to be worn? That being said the art on a tepee is always described as painted.
Could paint composition be determined from artifacts? even if the paint was long gone wouldn’t it leave a chemical residue?
The ingredients probably could, the ratios probably not.
What colors can you make it
There are a bunch of natural pigments available, but I don't know how to make them as they require a bunch of steps and some basic chemistry. I think most standard colours should be possible except purple.
If you are going to do this again, you might as well buy sturgeon glue, you can find it anywhere on the internet, and it is still used in a variety of ways. Bear Grease, know any hunters that hunt bear, see if they can get you some. Two ways that you can think of this but it will all lead to the same conclusion(meaning the ratios for the best paint) either keep experimenting or start with recipes that used glue and fat e.g. Cennini. What works, works and it works for a reason and everyone everywhere only got that point by experimenting.
No bears in southwestern Ontario anymore.
@@MalcolmPL Really, I had no idea. I would have thought that Ontario had the same black Bear density as the Appalachians. Anyway, I love the fact that you take a data point, you read and run with it. I am always amazed at how uninterested these authors were on what they they were witnessing. So we only get glimpses of how things were done.
@@Dresdentrumpet Southwestern Ontario is heavily disrupted, it's about two thirds agricultural land with very little wild space. It's also isolated as a result of the lakes. So no bears, no wolves, no moose, no cougars south of the Canadian shield since they were extirpated in the 1890s. Just little animals like deer and coyotes who can live in the margins.
Dear Sir, not really about this subject but I happened upon a video telling of the great removal of population that happened in the south west around the date 1400AD. One of the problems encountered by people who try to discover what happened is that the tribes that remain don't seem to like discussing their history with outsiders? Iwondered if your tribe had any memories or lore about what happened in the south at that time. I am hoping that being about other tribes, yours might not have any taboos about sharing? Thank you for your time and attention. As to this issue, just to show that I was listening,, maybe fish glue rather than hide glue. Sturgeon are fish after all.
Sorry, I've got nothing. Too far a distance.
@@MalcolmPL thank you so much for answering. It would be nice to find out though! May l just take this opportunity to say how much I enjoy your channel I really love the way you just try everything. As such you are a great example to both young and old alike. I live in England. I told my children most of your tribal stories and they loved them, even though they are now adults. Have you thought about putting them in a book? All the best for your future and l look forward to enjoying lots more of your videos to come.
can i send you some ochers, in case you'd like to continue these experiments?
No, I wouldn't be comfortable with that.
fair enough. i hope you do continue them! i'm about to start on a similar project, attempting to recreate rock paintings using paleolithic techniques and materials.