Did King Menes of Egypt Exist?
Vložit
- čas přidán 21. 07. 2023
- Egyptian lore points to a King Menes or Meni as the first king of the country, the unifier of north and south. But archaeologists have found no evidence for his existence? Was there really a King Menes, or are the legends invented?
►LEAVE A COMMENT
Be respectful and courteous to other commenters.
Challenge the argument, not the person.
Claims that are backed by evidence will get more traction.
If your comment does not appear, try again with different words. CZcams sometimes glitches and comments don't go through. Or they might flag your comment as potentially inappropriate.
►DOWNLOAD Professor Miano's free e-booklet: "Why Ancient History Matters":
mailchi.mp/a402112ea4db/why-a...
►SUBSCRIBE to the World of Antiquity CZcams Channel for regular ancient history content.
► SUPPORT THIS CHANNEL
Supporters get access to behind-the-scenes videos, early-release videos, course discounts and more! / worldofantiquity
FTC Disclaimer Notice: Some of the links here may be affiliate links, meaning that if you click on them and purchase something on another website, I get a small commission. It doesn't cost you any extra, but I thought you should know! It does help support the channel.
► REFERENCES
www.narmer.org/menes
amzn.to/3QduOhH
Professor Miano's handy guide for learning, "How to Know Stuff," is available here:
www.amazon.com/How-Know-Stuff...
Follow Professor Miano on social media:
►FACEBOOK: / drdavidmiano
►TWITTER: / drdavidmiano
►INSTAGRAM: / drmiano
I’m always blown away by how long ancient Egyptian civilisation ran on for.
Right! And people think in that amount of time they couldn't make stone jars and amazing statues, it's sad, ancient tech degrades them down to loin cloth wearing savages(uncharted x) they were amazing!
Yes. One thing that amazed me was when I read that the pyramids were as ancient to the Romans as the Romans are ancient to us.
Trouble for Egypt was that military tech was frozen in time till came the Hyksos with horses, chariots, sickle swords & composite bows. The later said by some to originated in China.
Which one?
The problem is, they are entirely separate entities that feasted on the corpse of the previous kingdoms.
It was quite a long long time
Love the always multi-faceted analysis and thorough explanation of existing theories and evidence. I prefer understanding the question to being given an unsupportable answer - channels that respect the truth to the degree you do are rare treasures.
Well said
Aw come on, you know its aliens!
Agreed. I love that when I read "did he exist" I know there's not a presupposed answer, just a legit look at the evidence
One thing appealing about Egyptian kings lists is that they seem interested in facts, and being accurate. Unlike certain Mesopotamian kings lists, they don't seem to claim that kings ruled for 76,000 years.
It seems to me that if Menes and Narmer aren't listed together in the same list, that they may be regarded as interchangeable. Forgetting a name and adding a place holder isn't a deal breaker.
Only pre Sargonic Kings are listed with ridiculous long reigns. From Sargon on the king list become Standard and the Assyrians even developed the eponym dating system who was used for centuries in different countries.
However, they did use propaganda, and the lists were manipulated. Hatshepsut reigned as Pharaoh, but was deleted and was only rediscovered because some later monuments contained things with her cartouche as filler. Then there are questions about the Amarna and immediate post-Amarna periods as well as the several periods of interegna.
@@JMM33RanMA They deleted heretic dynasties and usupers, and those who they regarded as illegitimate. Sometimes, their information was incomplete - three thousand years is a long time to be accurate - but what they included seems generally accurate, and there was no fantasy reign at the beginning of the list.
@@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526 Perhaps I am too harsh on the Mesopotamian kings lists. The one that sticks out is the fantasy list. My point is that the Egyptian list doesn't go into fantasy.
@@Carlton-B the dating systems for Mesopotamian were interpreted wrong. They were using a day count system (the turning of the stars/constellations/ecliptic... Or possibly months because of a lunar account system. But definately a lot of mystery surrounding the ancient past ... And just what we know? Or have discovered. We know nothing or have discovered very little since the flood? Or whatever cataclysms have affected earth. But I myself dont buy evolution ir millions of years... Very interesting though. I just learned there is over 60 ice age theories and that was an amazing ride...
The first Pharao was the Scorpion King, also called the Rock. But he was overthrown by a runaway Borg Drone.
They mixed historical and mythological figures who lived millenia apart in that film:
-The original Scorpion King was a pre-dynastic king of Upper Egypt (c 3200 b.c)
-The Rock's character is an akkadian.People who appeared in Mesopotamia c 2300 b.c.
-His main nemesis is Memnon,the same name of the Ethiopian prince of the trojan war (if he existed c 1250-1180 bc)
-The city in the film is Gomorrah (early iron age if it existed)
Obviously!...
The history of mayonnaise is complex. Who knew? Thanks for the video.
Goddamnit, you beat me to it 😂
But how do you pronounce it - that will never be agreed upon!
😂
Racists claim it's white!
That was easily the most comprehensive overview I've ever seen on this topic. Thanks, Doctor.
Thanks for doing these. You are providing a much needed service.
Really good video!!! One of the most in depth I've seen on Narma/Menes.
Kept giggling everytime I misheard mayonnaise and was waiting for this pic 12:46 to start rotoscoping. Great content as awlays. I bet your lectures would be epic without the disctractions of life surrounding a computer screen.
I am always so exited to see you’ve updated! This was wonderful
Thank you for the video. This is much more nuanced than my ancient history professor made it out to be. Of course, considering that I took that course about 30 years ago, I guess that qualifies as ancient history now.
Glad it was helpful!
Man I don't think most people truly appreciate quite how old ancient Egyptian culture is. Thank you for the videos
As always, very informative, engaging and professionally done, Prof. Miano. Thanks so much for your hard work!
I fully appreciate your patient and precise presentations. Thank you!
Thanks, Prof. Miano, as always this video is fascinating and is a necessary cautionary tale for those who would truly understand history.
Menes , no relation to mayonnaise. Do you think it has a connection? What does it all mean 🤔 lol
On a serious note. Wonderful video ! Learning more and more each post! Thanks!
We just need another find and everything changes, amazing. Thank you , great video as always
What a clear and scholarly exposition. BTW, I had the privilege of visiting the Petrie Museum, which made me think that a video explanation of the genre of "palettes" would be interesting.
Love these ancient mystery vids.
I've been waiting for this one! What an excellent summary of the Narmer/Menes mystery. This is why I subscribe to your channel, and keep coming back for more.
Thank you for another fantastic video... I can't help but wonder what valuable information has been lost/destroyed over the many thousands of years, and what surprises still remain to be found !!
I've always been fascinated by the ancient Egyptian culture, and the question of how it all began is quite intriguing. Thank you, Prof. Miano.
I'll have a cheeseburger, hold the Menes. ❤ the content, Doc!
I was hesistent to click on the link to your vid but am very glad I did. The last two Egyptian histories I've read, both publlished in the last 20 years, had put to rest Memes and replaced him with Namer. Good to hear a in depth discussion on the evolution of our knowledge on this. Thank you very much for the vid.
Menes and Narmer are the same person...
@@crimsonterror5795 manasse (massa) and nimrod (orion) appear both in the bible.
both represent a sinister type of destroyer, the same as appollos in the greek.
Such a detailed explanation. Thank you very much sir!
This was one of my faves from you!
Brilliant as always,made my day,thank you
Wonderful info thanks!
What a fascinating and multifaceted history! Then again, all of Egyptian history can be described that way. Thank you for taking us through each step of the way through this mystery, Dr. Miano. You always do this so well!
I'm leaving a like and comment for the Almighty Algorithm, in hopes it brings many more interested faces to your videos. 😊
❤❤
I wonder if king Algorithm the first king of CZcams?
@@rebanelson607 lol! Probably. I remember when CZcams first was created before G bought it. After they took control the heavy commercialization kicked in to see it flooded with infomercials/misinformation/disinformation/bots etc.. From that point on the almighty "click" geared towards advertising revenue became the name of the game and meaningful discourse took a distant backseat. 🤷♂
Amazing information 👏
Atlantis did it because I have a bar napkin from 1910, wake up sheeple
-Graham Hancock
Thank you Dr a very complete summary.Personally I would love to see a piece on the relationship or not between these first Egyptian kings and Sumer culture which also existed at the same time.I believe the intertwined necks of the mythical beast on the Narmer P is of Sumerian origin.
Fantastic video as always Dr. Miano. Do you have plans for any videos about ancient American cultures? I am so curious about the evidence for contact between pre-Columbian central and south America, and it's hard to find videos or papers about that topic.
ur fr a master of communicating info
thanks a lot as usual
Narmer Palette. Just found you through Pete K I love your channel.
The carving at about 9:30. Could you do a vid on that. I'd like to hear your ideas. Well done btw!
Your intro says to subscribe "for regular videos on ancient history". But I think your videos are actually quite good. Definitely better than just "regular"
Ha, thanks!
Best content on all of CZcams!
nice work and i hope it is cleared up.
Thank you for this extremely informative video! It really helped me piece the puzzles together regarding early Egyptian history and answered many questions I had about that period.
-From an Egyptian fan
Hello Dr Miano
I want to know🔱 ~ tfsharing~❤
Enjoy your weekend
Mr Wold of Antiquity i have three questions for you:
1. Who builted Memphis?
2. Who builted the first piramid? (Not who repaired it)
3. Who made the Delta of the river Nile? (I have heard it is artifisual)
Thanks!
And thank you!
Could Menes have been the famed Scorpion King?
Narmer has been put forth as the Scorpion King (which, presumably, would be his pre-unification name), so if Menes is Narmer, then the answer is maybe.
The Scorpion King was an earlier king from predynastic times who probably ruled only parts of Upper Egypt.
Always wanted to know how many kings have died by animals.
King John of England literally shit himself to death after eating too many lampreys, so that’s a collateral maybe?
Probably less then Animals died by Kings.
Yazid the second umayyad ruler fell of horse
@@Discotekh_Dynasty counts.
Someone always gets eaten by tigers in Nepal. It is probably never true, but it is reported that way. Hippos have been mentioned many times.
It's as simple as it gets, Menes is just another name for Narmer.
Menes (Kushitic name) = Nemes=Narmer . Applying honorific transposition standing. I think! The three set of Kings list are actually similar. It's the same names written in different versions. Linguistically you'll find the root words that are the common link
What are the chances of finding further direct evidence of that time, taking into consideration the level of destruction and exhaustiveness of the sites? And another question, even knowing that kings by then already used two names, what is the chance of both being clearly associated in a contemporary inscription? I thought that the uses of the names were more or less alternative, serving to different symbolic functions.
Personally, I would think very high. Consider that the majority of ancient Egyptian sites are still untouched or even unknown, protected by sand and time.
a side by side is the Narmer mace and the Moche tribute scene...the steps up to the canopy...
““Egypt” is known in the Hebrew Bible as Mitzraim or Mizraim; the ancestor of the Egyptians was Mizraim, son of Ham, son of Noah (Genesis 10:6). The nephew of the ancient Egyptian forefather, Mizraim, was a man named Nimrod. He was the first post-Flood city-organizer and despot (Genesis 10:8-12). Alexander Hislop’s book The Two Babylons explains that Nimrod and his wife, Semiramis, became the inspiration for the legends of the chief Egyptian gods Isis and Osiris.”
King Mayonnaise is still revered worldwide. He still tops the Burger King.
Amazing video.
In a way the problem of the identification of Menes is the same as the founder of the Hittite Empire: all later documents refer the 1st king as Labarna,but according to archaeology and earlier texts that should be Hattusili I.
Menes like Lanarna could well be a title.There is an exemple in Sumer itself: Sargon ("true king").
Strange that egyptian writer Manetho preserved the name Menes, but the babylonian Berossos who lived around the same time did not with Sargon the great.
Funny , greeks sources put another king in the same role as Sargon :Ninus of Assyria,who rullled circa 2100 bc,conquered all Mesopotamia (before the founding of Babylon itself) and ruled for more than 50 years.
It is really a shame both Aegyptiaca and Babyloniaca are lost.
He had at least two assumed names, including Ḫattušili, so sure why not?
King Mayonnaise and his issue, Hellman IV
What happened before the invention of writing that made Egypt divide into 2 kingdoms that also feel connected to one another and a need to unify.
It was obviously Dwayne the rock Johnson. Menes was half Scorpion.
I wonder if Menes is an attempt at saying "him who we have forgotten", rather than assigning a specific name. Kind of like the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
Yes, did you get this from wikipedia as I did?
Thank you.
Something that I keep wondering about, I read somewhere that there was a mythological "First King of Egypt" called the Scorpion King which the Mummy and Scorpion King franchises are incredibly loosely based on. Was there really a "Scorpion King" in Egypt's early years? Or was the Scorpion King just mythological, like Theseus or Jason in ancient Greece?
There really was a Scorpion King.
I love this video.
Fascinating!
Menes.... Minos...... Miano......
Ooooh is this a coincidence, I wonder.....
Maybe I'm the only one. But your CZcams playbutton award is a distraction with the ceiling fan running. Love the videos otherwise. Also your travel videos remind me of when the Discovery and History Channel weren't the garbage they show today. Well done❤
So, who was king "mayonnaise" then? ;0) Great video!
8:08 Recto? He nearly killedo!
is that a TARDIS top left???
Next to the Doctor Who bobble head? Interesting theory. 😉
Respect to you.
Is the muzak in the background intentional or did some neighbour turn up his radio? I honestly could not concentrate on the narrative and had to abandon it. Too bad.
I always thought the depiction on the namor stone was the sphinx not a people. What about the king statues that Herodotus saw on display and said that they were described as ‘gentlemen’? I thought that they kings before the first dynasty. I hope that I recalled that story correctly. And once again … great video
I love these educative videos... have you ever been told you kind of look like Ed Helms?
Interesting, I thought Narmer was considered the first ruler or pharoah of both upper & lower Egypt based on the evidence you showed in the video. 👍
I'll bet they told King Mayo..."look, if you can unite Egypt we'll change your name to Narmer" ...the opposing army couldn't hold the Mayo, thus a united Egypt was born.
Fascinating! I wondering if Menes could refer to the First KingS plural? Like we refer to our "Founding Fathers"?
Yes, I have been with this question, too, because of Egyptian chronology. Herodotus' flawed idea that Egypt is 11,340+ years old (which became the general Greek idea of Egyptian history) is anchored in king Menes as the first pharao of the united Egpyt. But I quickly concluded that the identity of Menes is not important for the problem of chronology, because the chronology does not change, whether Menes was real or not. Therefore, I decided to talk always of the "legendary" pharao Menes as the start of Egyptian chronology. Thank you for the video!
I would note that Herodotus like others seems to have related what was told to him - as opposed to formulating his own conclusions. Thus given how mythology played a prominent role in ancient societies it becomes less surprising that what is related can represent some verifiable fact - and some likely commonly believed myths.
So a possible myth as to the origin of a civilization - especially when it is related millennia after that civilization has come into fruition - is always a possibility. Egyptians of the day believing ancient stories about their culture relate that to subsequent individuals who are recording what they see.
Herodotus is considered _"the Father of History."_ Some of what he wrote has been validated by subsequent evidence. Some however is clearly mythological in nature - such as you alluded to. Thus one separates _"the chaff from the wheat"_ in discerning what might be accurate and what might be ancient lore accepted as fact by the people.
As an aside. An old culture desirous of portraying itself as great might create for itself mythical figures in its past to justify said assumptions. Think of the Sumerians whose own creation stories are clearly mythological as were say the Hindu myths. In so much as the Egyptians of the Late Period had a revival in belief in their "Old Gods" meaning the Old Kingdom Pharaohs when Egypt was strong it makes sense if they later during the time of Herodotus - following this period of revival - relate stories making themselves appear as great.
@@varyolla435 Absolutely correct. Yet in case of the flawed chronology of the 11,340+ years, I would like to make responsible neither mythology nor the tendency to make oneself appear as great, but a mistake in calculation / estimation on behalf of the Greeks. The Egyptians themselves did not have an idea of the summed-up periods of reign of all of their pharaos, it was only with the Greeks asking questions when this problem came up, and as we can see in Herodotus, the sum was produced by an estimation over the total number of pharaos, beginning with the legendary Menes.
Thanks
What do you make of the other lists that go back over 100 thousand years? I’ve always wondered why it exists
Another possibility is the transposition of the consonants. The only reasonable certainty about ancient Egyptian pronunciation are the consonants. There is never certainty about vowel sounds. For Narmer the only confidence we have is that his name was constructed from Nr...Mr. If these signs are transposed the result is Mr...Nr. If we use the same vowel signs that gives us Mernar which, given the vowel sounds are far from certain, is not far from Meni. How such a transposition occurred could be due to changes in the language between the early dynastic and much later periods together with the fact that signs were not always written in the order they were to be read. Such transpositions are not rare, we sometimes do it ourselves. Hence we have Raneb to Nebra or Radjedef to Djedefre. I'm not advocating this possibility as a solution but I believe it's a concept to be considered.
"Menes" in Egypt, and "Minos" of Crete. Sounds awfully similar to me...
So here's a conjecture: "Menes/Minos = some mythical first King"
manus and yanus, the twin from indo-european creation myth, a king-priest dual twin
It's always comforting to know (believe) that before Egypt there was something that we cannot yet name , that the Egyptians knew as we know them. Just thinking. ✌️
I fell into a nap and this video came on. Woke up confused as heck who is King Mayonnaise and why is he important
You should do the Scorpion King next (no bad CGI though).
I juat heard the good professor say "Aha! was mayonnaise" several times. I think I have sleep debt
I have only heard about Menes a few times being the first pharao of Egypt.
What about Narmer? Wasn't he considered the first pharao or do I confuse something here?
You are correct. Most Egyptologists agree they are the same person
“How many accomplishments did he have?”
“Menes.”
yea ;)) the very first 4 dynasties are crazy interesting...thank u David! u know what is strange? Neithotep Mastaba seems to be a bit too advanced compared to the 1st dynasty tombs, u know what I mean right? The first kings had their burial in Um El Qaab as u mentioned, but they were just pits in the sand with a dune on top, no sign of mastaba on top ever, but then here it comes the first (probably) queen of Egypt that we know of having a mastaba and not even in Abydos but in Naqada,,, how do you make your mind about this? cause Graham also on his website has an article asking a similar question and to me, this is quite a topic! would u like to address this in the future? ;))
Neithotep was a very interesting woman! A nod to this fact persisted throughout Egyptian history although in later times it became extinct but in the early dynastic period the kingship did pass down the female line and not from father to son. So mother's of kings or kings to be were incredibly important. Neithotep seems to have been powerful enough to order mining and trading expeditions and there is a possibility, a strong possibility, that she served as Dr facto Pharaoh during the earlier years of her son Hor Aha after the death of the king. So what we may be seeing is a tomb not built solely for a very powerful woman but also a woman who acted as Pharaoh until her son became of age. In the early dynastic period this seems to have been much more acceptable, even normal, than it was in similar circumstances for Hatshepsut in the New Kingdom.
de facto.....
King Mayonnaise must have been white.
I mean, with that name.
My complaint here is that even if the lists *definitely* agreed, that could just be because they copied each other.
I had no idea that the ancient Egyptians held mayonnaise in such high regard
If king menes somehow time traveled to current times and started reading batman comics I bet his favorite villain would be condiment king. Just how mayonnaise eventually separates, king menes also separated.... Separated from being king then separated from life by a Hippo. I wonder if he had a miracle whip, like really good whip for his slaves. If he only had a Chile named aoli...
Cool!
But what about Scorpion King from Lower Kingdom ?
If I remember.
Is this the guy at Hamunaptra?
@@lastofmygeneration
I am not sure.
There was a documentary on Scorpion King on Ancient Egypt.
I was placing the scorpion king as one of the first kings but not of unified Egypt.
@@SkyFly19853there was a movie about him too starred by dwayne the rock johnson.
@@neva_nyx
I think so.
Sounds like King Mayonnaise
It is frustrating to me that while history has always existed, the way ancient people thought about it was less about the absolute details (as we value them) and more about the value of the story for what it represents. By the time of the New Kingdom it is very possible that Menes real name had been forgotten, but I suspect it is equally likely that what Menes represents was far more important to them than his real name or real life, and that there could have been a kind of deliberate forgetting in order to reinforce the concept of Menes, and that using his real name might be frowned upon as reducing the actions of a god to a mere human activity. The king, by then, was considered a god walking among men, and therefore Menes could be considered a first god in that sense, too sacred to be reduced to mere human names.
Menes walking in Memphis, walking with his feet ten feet off the Nile,
Menes walking in Memphis, his story travels mile after mile.
Is he Narmer or Aha, or a name we've yet to unveil?
Menes walking in Memphis, his legend continues to sail.
Omg this was entertaining haha
menes = Tom Thumb ?
A-Ha was Mayonnaise. That explains it all! And this first King, was born 3000 years after the Pyramids of Giza were built by the Mustard Brothers, because it is written in Stone on a dung beetle scarab.🐞 Thanks for making the reading of all this graffiti, a clear Diamond.
Menes is King Minos of Crete. He had the largest navy and Crete is not that far from Crete. Which is why Egyptian directions are backwards North South from a Cretan point of view.
I always thought there wasn't a dispute and that Narmer was the first king. now I know better!
You are correct. Menes is agreed to likely be another name for Narmer.
I don't know who this Mayonnaise guy you're talking about is, but he is pretty famous for his potato salad.
3:38
Stonehenge dissagrees
Is it not possible that Narmer and Menes are the same name? Palindromic reversal is a common feature of African languages - perhaps Menes is a palindrome of Narmer in New Kingdom speak...the language changed and the name Narmer became harder to pronounce and so the syllables - either fully or partially - became reversed. This may have happened with other names too. Someone with the skills and the time needs to check.
What about the "r"s?