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Crazy War darts Nailed it!
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- čas přidán 1. 02. 2022
- I have a 'thing' about war darts - I love them and find them fascinating. So imagine how interested I was to find a drawing from 1433 by Mariano Taccola of a different kind of war dart.
Then imagine how annoyed I was to find that I couldn't throw them.
Now imagine how thrilled I am to have worked out how they work and that they are awesome!!!!
The first film on these darts is here • REALLY weird war darts
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I’m starting to think that with every throw, Tod is secretly hoping to hit his GoPro for that sweet, sweet footage.
I wonder if the views increase if he hits it offseting the cost of the go pro.
I think he'd start to want to hit it now to perpetuate the bit. It's a good bit. I love seeing how go-pros would fair in a medieval war.
The famous 300£ worth throw
In response to Blake. Can you imaging head mounted GoPros instead of crests, but in a general sense 'badly' I think
@@tods_workshop
"head mounted GoPros instead of crests"
'Running the gauntlet' as a public circus game for failed social engineers...
There needs to be a category on CZcams for Experimental Archaeology. Tod, Townsends, Tasting History, I wonder how many other channels I'm missing out on.
Check out Modern History TV
What a good idea. I'm searching for that now
I think we can hashtag it, #ExperimentalArcheology let's see if it works, if it does then spread it around all the relevant channels and videos.
Then we need to put Jorge on the job to create a reloading dart thrower
Historians of the 51st century trying to reproduce a "21st Century Slinged dart thrower" by using his videos as reference will be very mad.
They will surely focus a ot on his strange round helmet and the significance of placing a metal helmet on a stick somewhere near estimated target.
Do you think they'll read the comments tho ? :P
@@WBtimhawk How many will still understand written twentieth/twenty-first century English by then? It could be a rare language that you need special software or training for, or even a somehow-forgotten tongue.
@@WBtimhawk if history enthusiast of the renaissance scribbled comments on the books it would have helped contemporary researchers like Todd I guess.
@@princecharon they probably have super computers instantly translate everything for them :D
I'm sure it'd be especially dangerous, but, what about a really big one launched by the trebuchet?
Or, a large bundle of medium sized ones. Shotgun version.
I dunno, those things look really light, trebuchet might just launch itself into pieces.
Dude. You read my mind. Big ass spear launched from the trebuchet.
@@kanamisprs4330 a trebuchet ballista? Or is that just a huge ass balista?
Trebuchet needs heavy enough ammo for it's size as Mr.Tod explained in other videos. "Dryfiring" (or launching too light ammo) trebuchet puts huge amount of stress on the device's construction. The counterweight of a trebuchet needs proportionally heavy ammo for good balance and reducing the kick device receives.
We made these by wrapping a cord around (a few times) the shaft. Rotation means you dont need feathers. And we had a three foot throwing stick..we were told that they were 'celtic arrows'.
Bits of Nastiness is the name of my band.
Looks a lot like a "Swiss arrow" or "poacher's arrow". Fletching at the end rather than the middle, a notch just in front of the fletching for the string (no stick on the string, just a loop to go on your finger), arrow-sized head, slightly thicker and longer than arrow shaft. Supposedly used from ancient times until relatively recently by poachers in central parts of Europe.
Had cart loads of fun with them as a kid. (I still would and I'm 61 now).
@@acheface You'll put somebody's eye out!
yup made them as a kid , called them bobby arrows , different areas had different styles .
"A Swiss arrow (also known as a Yorkshire arrow, Dutch arrow, Scotch arrow, or Gypsy arrow) is a weapon similar to an arrow, but thrown with a lanyard, retained via a small notch close to the fletching. It is very similar to an amentum and uses the same principle as a spear-thrower. "
@@nowthenzen The times we were told that and it never happened! 😂
This was my initial thought to. Drop the stick. Or make it longer and the string shorter. Function like an atlatle
I have been fascinated by fletched javelins (war darts) for years now. It's wonderful to see someone satisfy so much of that curiosity in a real-world, practical way. Thanks for what you do Tod!
Thanks- I first saw them about 5-6 years ago and also have been fascinated since
Your enthusiasm to learn is partly why I watch your videos.
It's important to remember that during the late medieval and especially during the early renaissance period, the siege engineers (which were the weapon engineers during peace time) tried all kind of crazy things.
But these look rather like the kind of darts (often translated as "short spears" or "assagays") that lots or irregular infantry would have used in the post-Roman period, especially around the Pyrenees. We only have few undetailed mentions, it's unclear how they actually used them.
Would you please modify a couple darts,where the fletching is on the ends, just to compare. Also I would try a hook on the shaft,and a loop on the end of the string. I bet one could pull those suckers with more power behind, if the was a solid anchor point,like on a trebuchet.
And take a run up!
Lets try
stability would likely suffer. imagine lightly pushing against the end of a pen as opposed to the middle of it to get it to rotate around on a table. may also be to allow for throwing by hand in the event you lose your throwing stick
How did you add that caption at 8:00 after publication?
Good stuff, by the way - I wish I had somewhere I could throw sharp thngs like this.
Could use my place and you are very welcome, we could talk about ethics in crowdfunding while we throw.
Thanks for stopping by Lindy. I filmed this part 2 a few days after pt1, but before publication of pt1, and some very valid points were raised that I dismissed. For example, 'crew served' options or one person, two handed use and so trashed the drawing. In honesty I had not considered these options, so by the time I watched pt2, my own adamant comment was annoying me so I put up the card in the edit prior to upload.
@@Br1cht lol
@@tods_workshop Aha! I wish CZcams would restore that very useful feature. Thanks.
You report getting shorter ranges with a spinning dart, and yet other people report exactly the opposite. My old re-enactment group had some success with using thongs to spin javelins. Perhaps the fletchings are the key difference.
I think any solution that requires a second person to help is likely to count heavily against a weapon.
The principle difference is fletchings. They cause significant rotation drag if you try to spin it and so the energy gets lost doing that instead of going forward. Unfletched and the spin helps stabilise flight and so there is a net benefit to distance.
Thank you , Tod .
🐺
I love your enthusiasm in these videos Tod.
This video reminded me of something we used to do as kids. We used to make what we called "French arrows" using bamboo shafts with playing cards as flights and then just sharpened the end or wedged in a chip of flint.
To propel then we used a piece of string with a knot at the end wrapped around the shaft in the same way you are. Because the flights were at the end the string would be wrapped around the shaft just in front of the flights. The other end was just wrapped around your hand in order to keep tension on the string.
Initially throwing them would be a bit of a lottery and they'd go all over the place, but once you had worn the surface of the bamboo down a bit they would improve massively and you could really get a feel for them. You didn't have to wear a notch so much as just wear of the surface a little to roughen it up a bit to give the string a touch more grip.
They were never exactly pinpoint accurate but you could reliably hit a tree trunk from a short distance and get a pretty decent range (or a kids idea of decent range, say about a football field length) and they had enough power in them to penetrate skin, which I know from personal experience!
Thanks and I used to mess about with these too, but only when I got a bit older thankfully
I'm glad I and my friends never knew about these, for we would have ended up throwing them at each other.
Someone would have lost an eye, according to my mother.
MonkeyJedi. For so many projectile reasons I suspect mothers did not like their children coming round to mine. I particularly remember never getting boomerangs to return, so I just made loads of non returners and then my Friend Silas and I would throw them at each other and then it didn't matter if they didn't come back because there was always one lying around.
@@tods_workshop What do you call a boomerangs that doesn't come back?
A stick!
I love the way you dived into this, all from a drawing... brilliant. Thanks for your hard work, and dedication!
Thanks and I just find it interesting
@@tods_workshop I'm glad you do; it makes for some great, entertaining and informative videos.
when I was little. we used to make huge arrows out of bamboo, put a slight groove under the (cardboard flights) about 1cm down the shaft and use a string with a knot in the end to launch them in the same method you described.. The string would be wound around your fingers as you held the arrow near the tip, the effect was really much better than having the string attached to a little stick. Me and my brother would launch them from the top of an old quarry in Hellsby, the arrows would travel well over an acre.
Finally put in the Dutch arrow groove, but when I was a kid it was not straight across but at an angle. No idea if it made a difference it was just how it was done
People all over the ancient world are a lot smarter about this stuff than people give them credit for.
People forget they had the same brains as we do.
Were*
@@GaryHess not only that, but everything we know today is standing on the shoulders of thousands of years of people trying, experimenting, innovating, solving, failing and learning
They also had a bit more time to perfect their craft. "Ancient times" lasted for a couple of thousand years.
Modern times hasn't even lasted two centuries yet.
Tieing string around a stick and putting frogs in your mouth to cure a headache. Ancient people so smart, high iq.
Today Todd's tossing tons of tines with twine! Try not to twist, it takes the thrust.
With some changes you can double your range easily. Use a more flexible shaft, so it cart tails less, putting more energy forwad. Put the fletching at the end, the notch a little ahead of it and use a longer string for more leverage. Use the lightest stick you can find, the energy you waste on it isn't transfered to the dart.
I recently found a book about knife making from 1836.
I don't want to say that Tod needs to learn anything about Knife Making, I just thought it might be interesting to see how things where done back then.
That would be interesting
@@tods_workshop Unfortunatly it is in german... But I can translate it for you.
Aerospace engineer here. The central fletchings makes the dart less sensitive to changes in air direction, in exchange for being less stable (less accurate). While arrows, with fletchings at the back, will always angle along the direction of motion, the darts with their fletchings in the middle will "lag behind" the direction of motion, landing being pitched upwards (you can see this in the video).
This is why planes have their wings towards the center of the fuselage, it allows greater control of the aircraft, otherwise the plane would be unable to turn because they would be dominated by the wind direction. If the direction the dart is facing is different then the direction of its initial velocity, fletchings at the back will make the dart align with the velocity while fletchings in the center will align the velocity to the dart (as much as possible at least). This could potentially make them fly slightly further as well, as the dart will be fighting the change in direction and want to fly straight. This would have the side effect of increasing drag, which will slow down the projectile and weaken the impact.
Fletching in the middle suggests that the it's meant to act as wings, rather than as a stabilizer.
The dart appears to be gliding quite a bit. Not a coincidence.
I remember as kid in the 70s making French arrows (we called them) similar
Moving the fletching toward the middle makes the dart less like a rocket (where the center of lift+drag is far behind the center of mass to keep it pointed forward) and more like a plane (where the center of lift+drag is close to the center of mass for maneuverability). Rather than all the aerodynamic forces serving just to keep the point oriented into the windstream, now some of them can have other effects. Maybe the modified darts are "rotating" downwards more slowly and keeping themselves aloft with lift?
It would be interesting to play with the width of the fletchings, see if there's a glide component to the flight that gets greater with wider feathers.
I guarantee these would fly farther with the fletching at the back, and would hit harder when they get there. The drag and energy sap caused by having the tail wobbling around far outweighs any lift that might be produced.
@@IIDASHII if thers only so much thrust a short stick could do, would a longer stick and wrap to cause some spin help prevent wobble drag, we dont know what Tods spin method was.
A more boring explanation is " the misunderstood plumbata". Plumbata had length of bare shaft behind the vanes to serve as a handle.
@@JanoTuotanto This sounds like the most reasonable explanation to me. I would think if there was a large benefit to having the fletching in the middle of a throwing dart as opposed to the back, we would have seen more evidence of this occurring historically. That said I would be more than happy to be proven wrong with further experimentation / historical records.
Don't ever apologize for being a genius Tod
Tod's New Groove! Cool! 😎
8:03 That Disclaimer is nice to see; as it points to an open mind, more experiments and more fun videos.
True, but I'm not really sure how much more effective a two-handed or crew-served version of this would be. Especially a crew-served version. At that point, why not a ballista?
@@brycepatties I presume that a "crew served" version would be one person with the stick and one person carrying the darts and helping with loading. So, effectively, a quarterstaff and a bundle of javelins.
A ballista would, I presume, be more difficult to carry on a campaign. The ballista would be more effective in a defensive position or a siege, I suppose.
Dear Santa please let there be a dart throwing staffsling video coming soon.
Sometimes the smallest adjustments make all the difference! Nice work.
Brilliant channel Tod 🏴🏹
Always interesting and clever. Good Video.
I've commented all through your experiments on these, that these were used in Ireland and Scotland, my Grandfather showed my father, who showed me in the 1970's, and he had been showed in the 19th Century, by his Grandfather, the knot is the key, I like the bead, I use to make these as a Kid, I knew you would get there in the end, with a bit of practice you can even throw longbow arrows, with a flick of the wrist and the same arrangement.
As an astrophysicist: I cannot explain the central fletchings, but they seem to work!
Well. Seeing how your entire profession is based on relentless misinterpretation of the forces that drive nature and theories thought up before modern technology gave us the ability to see the electromagnetic spectrum, you not understanding simple aerodynamics makes a lot of sense.
@@ElectricalExistence and even then what they theorize and do tends to works on a practical level. Pretty fascinating stuff
@@Juanito_Pecados yea they arent the ones creating technology. Electrical engineers and structural engineers are.
@@Juanito_Pecados what they theorize doesnt even work in reality and they constantly have to rework their theories to try and account for new information.
@@ElectricalExistence isnt that how most technology progress works mate?
I find this kestros hypothesis very interesting and worthy of additional testing to find out whether such darts would work if thrown with a staff-sling (given an end-notch like on a proper kestros).
1:47 Tod celebrates his successful war dart throw, blissfully unaware that he threw the war dart with such vigor that it tore a hole through the space/time continuum, a void in reality consuming his cheers and leaving us with a horrifying David Draiman-like staccato noise.
These remind me of something my Dad once talked about, something he learned to make as a kid. No idea what they he called them but, basically they were arrows launched with a short stick.
Spider man meme of Tod and Taccola pointing at each other.
The fletching in the middle would make it easier to use as a last ditch short spear and we all we all know the weapon you got is better than the one you've not.
Having a few behind fixed positions could disrupt an advance or a staging area , a way of using new or untried troops (i.e. expendable) loss of a throwing stick which is easily replaced unlike a bow.
God. Imagine a hundred of them coming down at you off a hill or something. Cheers Tod.
What!? This look like close border between genius and crazy. I never seen projectiles like this
You may be the leading authority on war darts. There should be an honorary doctorate in it for you from someone.
That little notch & string with a knot looped around just once is exactly how our Dutch Arrows were thrown when i was a kid.
The only two differences was we'd have flights at the back end with that notch just in front of the flights and we'd have no stick. Just string taken from the notch down to the pointy end & we'd wrap the string around our first two fingers & then hold the dart in what's called a key grip.
The grip is just like you'd pinch a key to turn it.
The string was taught all down the shaft and you'd hold the dart in that key grip and throw. Ignoring the string. It works it's magic all on it's own.
It was a huge craze amongst us kids & i'm sure it's been handed down for donkey's years.
We'd use 60 or 70cm canes with heart shaped flights & fire hardened points. They were those green garden canes.
That little notch was all it took to launch & release every time! And they'd fly amazingly well. Huge distances!
Congratulations!!
Magnificent!
Can't wait for next episode!
Seems more like a fun game than something one would use on a battlefield.
I would love to see you try the two-handed version, if that's still on your list
How does one throw something like that two handed? Wouldn’t one hand cause problems with the other? Would there be any increase in range or accuracy?
@@seanlavoie2 It was discussed in the comments on the last video, but to summarize: historically there was a weapon like this named something used somewhere I've forgotten. The fletchings are moved forward so you can stick the back in the ground or perhaps held by an accomplice. That lets you use a longer staff and a two handed swing. Range is probably somewhat better and you can use a heavier projectile if desired. Moreover, it had similar proportions as the thing in the drawing.
I used to make various types slings when I was a teenager. I made both an atl-atl and an arrow sling. What I discovered was that the moment of inertia will help stabilize a spear or atl-atl when throwing, but it didn't work for darts and short arrows unless they were knocked at the front behind the arrow head. When done that way, I was able to get power, range, and accuracy with them, using a short, or even a long pole sling. The key was to keep a little tension or weight on the arrow at the beginning of the cast to keep it knocked. I would then cast like one does with a fishing rod. At the end of the cast, the arrow would fly free with great speed. I could easily get to 50 meters range that way. This may not be historically accurate, but I found it very effective.
Great work Tod.
I love it when Tod's excited!
Reminds me of the Australian Aboriginal woomera. Helps you throw a 2 metre spear very accurately and very simply, no fletches no string. Thousands of years old.
Tod's neighbor : "Tod's doing artillery exercises near my fence again. Please send helmets."
we used to make arrows like this when we were kids. we were told they were French arrows but can’t remember who told us this. we had the fletching's at the back but did the same as you with the small notch cut in the side of the shaft. This was way before Google, so we had to mess around for ages cutting notches at different levels until you found the best point for power vs flight path. we used to find twisting the string down the arrow helped also but only like 3/4 to one turn from the notch to the hand position. we didn't use a stick for the string just wrapped the string around the hand. Throw it like a spear and then follow through and down with the rope/ hand. We never got them to go far like we did from our home-made bows but we definitely got them to go much further than simply throwing them like a dart.
When I have used cords to throw spears (detaching amentum / ounep, and a hypothetical paleolithic baton de commandment plus cord) I put a fixed binding of string around the spear in front of the attaching point so that it formed a sort of 'thrust collar' that the cord would be snug behind. This worked very well and solved the slippage problem.
Thanks for the tip
This is my theory. The fletching in the middle gets it out of the way for use as a hand held anti-horse spear that can also be launched (or used by hand). Or when it is attached to inside of a shield the fletching are not getting scraped up. The long shaft though adds weight and balance.
That is what they call an experimental archeology!
* Waits for Jeorg Sprave to rig a magazine feed to that throwing stick^
That notch is smthing that was put in the french arrows we made with a pack of cards, metre lengths of bamboo and nails as a kid. That with 3 or 4 foor of string as the launcher. Send it a good 50m.
Thank you.
As always, awesome research and testing. I love to see cool things like this that would have otherwise been lost to history.
It's actually really interesting to see historical reconstruction from different eras. I've seen many people try to reconstruct kestrosphendone sling darts and, although I'm sure only one guy got it right, the amount of interpretations amazed me. Now seeing it done by medieval researchers reconstructing Roman times is also interesting - it shines a light on their times as well as the past.
The kestro is something I have always had an interest in
You have to love this man
Holy crap, good work Tod.
Great! Thx for your tests. ;)
This is very interesting. Thank you for the video 👍
Love your craftsmanship with whatever you put your hands to. Much respect from the land of the flightless birds nz
Brilliant!
"Sometimes it doesn't help to be too vigorous about it."
As with a golf swing: let the club do the work.
Hi Tod, really enjoing your work on these weapons and technics. Very entertaining, fun and educational. Thanks for your work.
Thanks - appreciated
Lawn darts take on a whole meaning.
Seems like a great skirmish weapon, if the enemy try to pick it up and lob it back chances are they will fluff it and barely get it half way.
I think it was Polybius who describes the missile as 2 cubits and fletched in the middle. I don't know I'd fancy swinging something 3ft long with a big broadhead on it around in case it caught on release and hit you, descriptions of the sling are quite vague, it may anchor behind the wooden flights explaining why they're in the middle. The best ones I've seen actually use a missile about the size of a plumbata thrown with a type of sling.
Yes, it's in Book 27 of the Histories. The description's as delightfully unclear as usual for Polybius.
I recall that this is from a mistranslation of the original text. The original states that it was 2 palms, not cubits.
Weight transfer. Tod, when you "put more effort in " you fell away go your left. This reduced the energy transfer to the dart and so the distance . Following through the throw in the direction of the target for 1 or 2 steps should allow you a good increase in range. Light troops with these may have thrown on the run allowing them to carry on moving back in to cover. Just a thought.
I love this channel Tod, watching you have so much fun is a joy. Thank you.
This reminds me a lot of a toy my uncle made me as a child in Norway
Looking forward to the staff sling.
From War Dart to today’s Lawn Jart. Oh, how the mighty have fallen. 😞
How about a dimple on the end for the knot to sit in with a channel for the string? The knot catches on the channel to hold it there. Then you could use a longer string and the string would just slip out of the channel as the dart leaves
I wonder if a consideration in the design would be that they may be harder to throw back by the enemy.
If you don't have the string and stick it certainly wouldn't make it all the way back to you if it was indeed thrown back.
I guess that the best way to make it hard to throw back is to embed it in the target. 😏
that is always a consideration, even in modern times. you dont want your enemy capturing a storehouse and shooting you with your own bullets, any more than you want your enemy pulling your dart you just threw at them out of their shield and sending it right back
before nato was a thing every nation had their own specific calibers different from every other nation
Now, on to the plumbata!
Cool video thank you Sir
There's room for the fletching behind where you wrap the string, I agree with you it should work better that way.
Tod, it makes me happy seeing you happy in your discovery.
Great video. Fascinating and educational.
Thank you
Perhaps the fletchings were put mid shaft to allow many darts to be easily stuffed into a quiver of sorts, or in order to allow an easy hand grip on the shaft if they needed to be thrown only a short distance at an approaching adversary.
Another thought concerning the two handed maori style whip spear that showed up last time. It also explains why the fletching would be in the middle instead of the end. with the kotaha, the butt of the spear appears to be planted into the ground at an angle to facilitate the two handed throw. If that's the case here, moving the fletching up the shaft would keep it from being fouled by dirt or mud before being launched.
Very interesting. Excellent presentation.
Thanks
Wonderful stuff Tod. As usual. I love this kind of experimental archeology. I think you've moved the ball forward.
looks like good excercise.
I made stuff like that in the 70s when I was in the cub scouts and they were called Māori throwing sticks
Very exciting, good job.👍
Thanks
Thank you for figuring that out. I must fire my forge and begin making dart warheads.
great video, tod cutler of tod cutler and tod cutler's workshop
Amazing work! Well done!
Thanks
Would be awesome to see a line of “warriors” to throw these at.
It's real now. They're also really cool.
It would be interesting to see a comparison between darts of the same length thrown the same way with fletchings in the middle and at the end.
Of course, even if Taccola mostly made it up, that doesn't mean that it was never used in battle.
It looks fun, I might try making these anyday too
The cool thing is that you could have gone through the exact same process of figuring out that groove in the 14th century as well as you did in the 21st.
For modern athletic javelins the centre of gravity was changed to reduce throwing distance, as athletes were close to exceeding stadium range (i.e. winding up on the running track, which they really didn't want - over 100m), without the aid of throwing straps. I think without analysing it in detail that it will rotate more the further away the CG is from the hold point, and the position of the hold point may affect the leverage applied to increase range.
Imagine them dropping 50- 100's of these on you as you advance