Jordan won 3 rings in 3 seasons. Retired for a couple years, then came back and won 3 more CONSECUTIVELY. He never let a Finals series even GO to a game 7. Jordan is GOAT
@@Geraldamyawhat are you talking about? Did you watch these games? Or you just talking about the highlights you've seen? Go watch every game of these series that you're talking about. I personally have watched every game multiple times You don't know what you're talking about.
Nobody ever brings up the fact that there are only 2 guys that are in the top 25 all time in Usage, and bottom 50 in Turnover Percentage(meaning lowest TO%), those 2 guys are Michael Jordan and... Anthony Davis 😮 the difference? AD is 25th in Usage and a big not asked to handle the ball as much, Jordan is 1st in Usage, and was the primary ball handler for his team 💯
There's another reason why LeBron isn't the goat and no one seems to be talking about it, and that is his shooting efficiency by distance. Here's LeBron's career stats by distance: 3pt: .348% (below league average) 16ft-3pt line: 386% (below league average) 10ft-16ft: .365% (below league average) 3ft-10ft: 429% (below league average) 0ft-3ft: 740% (above league average) free throw: .736% (below league average) To summarize, LeBron James is a below average shooter from everywhere on the court, except dunks and layups (in an era where the driving lanes are open). Nobody that poor at shooting from anywhere on the court should be in the discussion for goat
@@bigkev9539 First, I don't consider Jordan or Kobe the goat. Second, at least both of them were better shooters from midrange, free throw, short jumpers. So again, LeBron is a below average shooter from anywhere on the court except dunks and layups. That's it. BELOW AVERAGE, meaning below your mediocre NBA joe
@@leebrandt8597 *So because LeBron doesn't jack up inefficient mid-range jumpers, he's worse at scoring?* *Also, EVERY NBA player's FG% goes down the further away from the basket they shoot, so that's a dumb argument.* 😂😂😂
@@bigkev9539 We could've had a discussion if you didn't make that last sentence. But because you did, imma have to school you. The argument, since I have to spell it out for someone unintelligent like you, is that LeBron isn't as good as the average, mediocre player from anywhere on the court: 3-10 feet (that's inside the paint), midrange, 3pt, free throw, EVERYWHERE. He's does worse than second-rate players from all distances, except dunks and layups (0-3 feet). Not the goat
@@leebrandt8597 *ONCE AGAIN, the argument that LeBron isn't a top 3 player ever because he doesn't settle for inefficient mid-range jumpers is STUPID because the "better" players almost all have LOWER career FG%s than him (ex: Allen Iverson, Paul Pierce, Kobe Bryant, MJ, etc.).* *In both the regular season AND playoffs.*
5:16 I think that most basketball players (men and women) would say that the worst statistic for any basketball player and/or basketball team to be connected to, is the TURNOVER statistic. Candace Parker said that the one thing that she learned about Diana Turasi, from playing with her in the Olympics, is how much she hates turnovers. And when you play basketball recreationally or organized, I think that turnovers do seem to completely drain you and your team, as well as demoralize you and your team, more than missed shots or bad calls from the referees.
I mean… the guys averages 7.8 assists for his career is gonna be 3rd all time probably… has generated 15k more points than anybody ever… How many Turnovers should he average? Cause he’s on 3.4 and Jordan is on 2.7. So would it better acceptable if he was at 2.7? Lol y’all are to invested in Jordan to see how ridiculous your arguments are
@@jaysandi88 So Jordan averages more points than any player in NBA HISTORY - 30.1 to LeBron’s 27.1 and Michael Jordan has more scoring titles than any player in NBA HISTORY - 10 to LeBron’s 1. So from your comment, LeBron has more longevity points because he has played 6 years longer than Jordan….LeBron James is shamefully refusing to retire, playing longer than any human being plays a professional sport because even after 21 years, 6 years longer than Jordan, LeBron James is still chasing Michael Jordan. You talk about his assists average PROBABLY taking LeBron to 3rd or 4th All-Time yet your biases are only outmatched by the amount was in your ears or house-dirt in your eyes, since I did not say that Jordan was PROBABLY 3rd or 4th in scoring average nor PROBABLY 3rd or 4th in Scoring Titles. So your Queen is playing longer than anybody in history just to be 3rd or 4th best, while Jordan played 6-10 years less to become 1st aka GOAT in the aforementioned categories. LeBron James refusing to retire because is too far beneath and too far behind Michael Jordan is sad and pathetic…..and I would describe your LeBum fans with the exact same two adjectives. 😅🤷♂️🔥💯
@@rollandcurtis874 you have problems dude… real ones… Lebron is not your enemy… the dude doesn’t even know you, let go of this hate. MJ was a scorer, that was his job. Lebron had to be a scorer in that one season cause his team sucked. His assists were down that season as well. MJ played a system game where the ball would go to him as the best option, probably because he’s a top 2/3 scorer of all time. So help me understand why it’s shameful to play a sport that you’re great at even at 39? Why exactly is it shameful even when you’re still better than the vast majority of SUPERSTARS in the league? At 39 you’re still in the playoffs, people STILL have expectations. Have you forgotten that MJ unretired and joined the Wizards? at 38? Was he shameful for returning? Y’all need help man… or just admit that hating Lebron is what gives you purpose… maybe then you’ll realise how ridiculous your hate is. Jesus. Lebron played 6 years longer cause he’s able to. He did the work to still be jumping out of the gym at 39. He’s still good enough… he’s still competitive… MJ wasn’t. And it’s ok… MJ isn’t Lebron and Lebron isn’t MJ. If you stopped hating and just watched basketball, you just might enjoy watching him
The rebuttal to the finals competition is that if LeBron's teams were simply placed into the Western Conference, he only makes the finals 4 times because the team that beat him in the finals would have knocked him out mid playoffs
And the 5th-best scorer in the 2011 Finals. MJ was the top scorer in every series he played, and never lost more than 2 games in a row throughout his entire 90s Bulls tenure. LeBum is not in the same galaxy.
I think anyone who uses logic and not narrative will tell you that longevity is a double edged sword… Lebron is at the top of most lists because he has been a constant performer for decades. When you play the amount of minutes he does, you are very likely to rack up turnovers. MJ had 2.7 a game Lebron has 3.4… fact in how many assists he has… factor in how many touches he has… factor in how often he’s is double and triple teamed…
For a pass first player, which everyone likes to claim about Lebron. The assist to turnover ratio is the worst in league history. 2 assists to every turnover. Magic who actually is a pass first player averaged around 12 assists so his ratio is 4 assist to turnover.
The LeBron media machine covers up all of his flaws and inconsistencies. Since he came into the league. Lies and narratives have been forced down our throats
LeBron James is afraid to retire because he knows that he’ll be forgotten or placed in the background, especially when the next challenger to Jordan’s GOAT position arrives. When MJ retired the first time, Scottie himself got on TV to beg Jordan to return. The Air Jordans are more popular & successful now than they were while Jordan was playing.
Bron won't be forgotten. But he's obsessed with being worshipped as the "GOAT" because HE used to worship MJ that way as a kid. At least, that's what I gathered from how he comes off. And he's been trying and failing to one up Mike for years. We'll keep seeing him even after he retires, like how we see Isaiah Thomas but more, and worse.
@@trowabarton321 This is what people said about Kareem-Abdul Jabar….and now look at him. People said that they’ll never forget him, and now he’s hardly ever mentioned. 🤷♂️
@@rdogletree4543 This is what people said about Russell and Chamberlain….and now look at them. People said that they’ll never forget them, and now they’re hardly ever mentioned. 🤷♂️
I'll never forget this. I remember after the Cavs lost to Dwight's Magic. And Lebron walked off without shaking Dwight and anyone else's hand. He was criticized for it. Afterwards, he said that he didn't feel like he should have to shake anyone's hand after losing. And then he double downed on it months later, saying he'll apologize for skipping the media session but not apologizing for not shaking hands after losing. That's when I started to notice the kind of dude he was cause I had no opinion of him until after that series. I just thought he's a great player at the time.
@@rdogletree4543 Only player to get 200+ steals and 100+ blocks twice. Defensive player of year. Only player to get DPOY and scoring title same season. Went 626 games without losing 3 in a row. Still leads in career ppg in regular, playoff, and finals. Most clutch shots in history. The only player to get Scoring title, All defensive award, MVP, Championship, and Finals MVP. (Did this 4 times) Led the more lowest scoring playoff supporting cast to titles than anyone. Bonus: Olympic Gold medalist, All American twice, NCAA champion, and considred to have the best mid range game of anyone. No one has a better career in this sport than him.
Unfortunately the argument against LeBron isn't that he turns the ball over it's when he turns the ball over, and he tends to turn it over at the worst moments at end of games.
Most TOs all time, Most missed shots all time, shoots 37% for his career outside of 3 feet, below avg freethrow shooter, takes waaaayyyyy to many plays off on defense, provides no off ball offense, cant be coached, etc. Can't call this type of olayer the GOAT.
Here's the reality, if the bulls lost in one of those finals, that team is going to be considered one of the best teams ever. When you beat a team that dominated a decade, you're going to be considered one of the best ever. Why don't we say how great Duncan is then? He lost to great teams and we're not sitting here putting him in the goat conversation. Iggy got the mvp because Steph wasn't extraordinary. Jordan always wins when he is favored to win in the playoffs, LeBron not so much.
He quit against the Celtics the year after he lost to the Magic. He constantly leaves his team on the floor while they’re losing. The East was the weakest while he went to the finals so many times. These are important things. And he no showed against Dallas in 2011. At least one of these things gets you disqualified from the conversation. Add them all up.
Name the teams MJ played to get to the finals… then the teams he actually played in those finals… then do the same for Lebron side by side… don’t be shocked with what you find
@@jaysandi88 first MJ played more 60 win teams than Lebron so your argument is ridiculous, then actually read what I wrote. The East was super weak for Lebron to make the finals. This is why he made it so many times in a row and yet got destroyed in the finals. MJ had to play in the strongest conference of his time and had to fight through the best Celtics teams, best Pistons teams, best Cavs teams, the best Magic teams, the best Knick teams just to make the finals. Then when he got there he won. Pretty sure the Sonics, Jazz, Lakers and Suns were all great teams at the time MJ played them since they had won a ton of games to get to the finals. They all had great duos who were at the top of their games. Lebrons competition except for the warriors has not been better than those teams.
@@JayDay32 😂😂😂 mhm… did you read all this back to yourself after you wrote it? I think not. I actually don’t think you read what I wrote… do this… of all the losses Lebron had… 6… take all the teams that he played against from round 1 to the finals… then take MJs 6 wins… and do the same thing. If you do that objectively, comparing Rosters, win probabilities, season records, number of all NBA players in the team, even number of all stars. Hall of famers also if you want… do that comparison. Just for Lebrons losses and MJs wins. See what you find. MJ started winning in an expansion league just FYI… first series win was in his fourth year… Lebron went to the finals in his fourth year. Beating a Top 10 defence of ALL TIME in the conference finals… lol. Being as 60 win team doesn’t mean you’re good… it might just mean you’re in a weak conference… Lebron swept a 60win team… lol. You Jordan fans have a blind spot when it comes to Lebron… it’s a mystery to me how far you will go to pretend like he’s a scrub compared to MJ. It’s ok to think MJ is the GOAT… but this toxic hatred of Lebron is REALLY alarming.
@@jaysandi88 you clearly weren’t actually alive during that time which is why you never actually saw how great the teams were. Amazing how you lebroes always try to bring out all these weird metrics to try to prove a point. Facts are facts. Lebron lost to a Mavs team where his team was clearly the better team and played like a child. That loss alone is enough to show he just isn’t that great, but then to lose to the Spurs when his team was favored as well is embarrassing. He also lost with the Cavs in his first stint with what a 63 win team and got blown out. Second fact, MJ never lost to a team with a worse record, Lebron has multiple times. That shows MJ was better and played that way, while Lebron was better and played bad.
@@JayDay32 lol… I was very much alive… but this has nothing to do with me… lol… so because Lebron had a terrible series he’s not great… forget all the other incredible series…. Even ones where he lost… because of that one he’s a scrub 😂😂😂 you folks need help… or you need a dose of reality… Lebron was not favoured in 2014… Wade had was injured and so was Bosh… they came into that series banged up… and Lebron was still BY A MILE the best player in the series. Like I said… winning 63 games doesn’t always mean your team is good… the playoffs are about exposing weaknesses and maximising strengths, if your team has a glaring weakness, teams will beat you. That’s true for everyone and not just Lebron. Lemme ask you. Leaving MJ aside, which player would you say is clearly better than Lebron all time?
Let’s not forget that when MJ was getting to Finals he was going through Bad boys, Knicks, Pacers, Shaq/Penny Magic. Lebron was on Superteams beating who in his East? Absolute cake walk to the Finals with his OP teams. Also MJ’s didn’t have the tablet around like Lebron has. MJ’ s final opponents averaged 61 wins a season. So they were not chumps either.
People say "he didn't have enough help." They had the best record, were the favorites, and still lost. And they lost, because of James piss poor performance.
The turnover point want really a good one. Isaiah Thomas & Magic Johnson were both above him in topg, as well as Allen Iverson. & His again to turnover ratio is right on part with Jordan & way better than Kobe with far more assists. I'm not the biggest LeBron fan, but that was a weak point imo
i understand but his role is definitely different than jordan's or kobe's.... honestly one of the few players playing in this generation that tries to take care of the ball as much as getting an assist is chris paul and hes been like that his entire career... end of a dying breed tbh
20:19 my counter argument to them saying that is, before that Bron eith the super team heat was the 2017-18 warriors. Cant knock teams because once again like the spurs did they figured out how to beat Lebron and use his own game against him. You cant knock KD who had to go up against Bron and and his super team for doing the same shit bron did. Because not sure you noticed but a lot of lebron fans hate KD for doing the same shit bron did, literally. KD took his talents to the bay area and won 2 titles like lebron did when he took his talents to south beach. Aint that funny to think about? To me in the video the giy makes a lot of great points but what ultimately disqualifys Bron from beijg in the GOAT debate is those finals losses. Not to mention before he left Cleveland for the first time, and despite having the best record in the nba, lost to two teams in the 2009-10 seasons that kobe turns around and beats and wins his 4th and 5th rings. That to me just puts a stain on his career, that kobe won more with less. Then you add the fact that this dude cant win without creating super teams on top of that. He literally makes Kobe look better. Only ppl who dont think so is lebron fans.
There’s entire communities of people who spend time making videos about why Lebron isn’t great… Lol I think that says quite a lot about how great he really is
@@xcvsumextra Correct. Idk why I read your comment as a question, instead of a statement of fact, which it absolutely is. You are correct, sir. Steve Kerr would put Iggy on either Harden or CP3.
Lebum had to call for help had to join forces had to create superteams had to take steroids they had to stop hand checking to make it easier and still lost more than he won SMFH..everything else u can add on but u should start off by the superteams he needed to create to win..PATHETIC...but it's so many reasons which make him not even close that's why there's others that's better..Mike name should've NEVER been brought up with this FRAUD...I'll give him top 20-25 his mentality n always quitting on his team if shiidd dnt go his way another MAIN FACTOR it's just CRAZY some ppl even think he 2nd...those dnt REALLY know bball or sweep alota of his weaknesses under the rug
*only recently started watching basketball closer the last year or so, and the conversations around it boggle my mind a lot of the time* Maybe a lot of what I'll say has been talked about already so sorry if i repeat some idea someone has had; to me they're my novel thoughts. A lot of the points made are great and raise some questions; but it feels like they're stopping 2 questions short of 'real' answers. The glaring elephant in the room not being talked about is the issue of a team game and looking at individual statistics. If you've played team sports you know there are things you can't do about it. Even gamers who haven't played traditional sports know if you play great you don't necessarily win (think of the response any professional of any team sport has when asked why they didn't win - "i needed to play better isn't the answer - its 'we' did not play well (even if they take the self righteous lie and say 'its on me', its not - its almost always its on us) - There are times where individuals do "fumble" or "choke" and disappoint but every great player has been carried for moments by others and to rest an argument on "this individuals team record is 6-0" when a different player on the team could have easily missed a shot and lead to a loss, is irrational. A ring is an objectively arbitrary threshold for greatness. It presupposes the importance of a stretch of winning, while downplaying consistency: which is especially confusing to ignore in a game where there is high variance. Injuries, teammates, coaches, match ups all of these things come into play for a team winning or losing. Which is fine if you want to structure the conversation around "the only thing I care about is a finals record" then you can have that conversation. If hypothetically there was a game close enough that if Jordan missed one more shot in the playoffs and it caused his team to lose, why would his "goat" argument get any worse? Realistically he should be one shot worse than the alternate universe where he hit it. - in my mind 5-1 and missing one shot wouldn't be a big difference, but from the conversation it seems like that basketball player would be waaay lower ranked in your minds, which is very confusing. Its like we used statistical lenses and then fail to see that we are looking at the trees and not the forest. If we use statistical analysis we should be looking at what would be likely to happen if that game was played out a large n number of times. If we want to use statistics in basketball we should carry the statistical arguments and talk about how 6-0 is not a sample size where any confidence could be gained about and individual on a team. We are many layers of abstraction away from an individuals skill and performance being responsible for winning. What percentage of a win do you give to a teams best player? Is it 100%, 50%, 25%? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that question. In golf, or tennis, I could argue its still not even 100%, because the opposition has a lot to do with it, but when you start adding in having to deal with teammates on both your and the other team, the level of complexity to answer that question goes through the roof. Lets go back and push that one missed shot to the logical extreme: if Jordan never got into the finals because his team was so ass, but by eye test was the best player, how many would say he's a goat? Or is basketball a game where if he is the best player on the worst team he's still able to go 6-0 in the finals? I don't think its that game from watching but what do i know. Maybe the conversation has already been had but perhaps a useful thought experiment would be to take the players and swap them for each run of the playoffs (in this case Jordan/Lebron) would the outcome have changed? If your answer is MJ wins 10/10 in LeBron's shoes and and LeBron doesn't win 6/6, you've got your answer, but personally I highly doubt those are the numbers you'd come to. Remember thought you can't even be deterministic when you say X player would win in their shoes, it should be X player has a 10% better shot of winning. Which just shows you that some championships/rings are not about the player and are more about the situation around them. Its not 100%, id be very surprised its even around 50%. A lot of people might hate the example, but the goat argument from an outsider does seem a lot like "dude flipped a coin and got heads 6 times in a row - he's the best," "the guy who flipped the coin 10 times only got 4 heads, he sucks". Its nice to live in a fantastical narrative that allows us to attribute winning to individual people because it dumbs down the conversation but team games are incredibly complex to analyze. TLDR: The goat argument should be structured around "if Jordan was in this spot X would have happened, and if LeBron was in the same spot X wouldn't have happened." or some equivalent if you want to talk about rings If you want to talk about aggregate statistics for who's best, you need to stick to aggregate statistics, you can't suddenly switch the convo to talk about championship wins. That shifts the conversation from a team award to an individual award. Which hopefully your answers to the above questions should point out.
6 chips 6-FMVPs, never lost as the favorite, never choked or outplayed by a role player in the Finals, better per game and advanced stats, better accolades, led a dynasty and did it in less time. Jordan is simply better/greater at basketball. LeBron has played longer.
The East was not as strong as y’all try to make it out to be either. LB is a threat to your favorite player favorite player that’s why bringing him is irrelevant!!!!
Lebron is a great player all time but he has too many weaknesses and too many uh weird ghings in his game. Lol that flopping and that cry baby epic crying to the refs is very cringe to watch. I also think that his creation of this age of player empowerment aka Superteams trying to stack his team with multiple allstars then jumping ship whenever he thought his allstars couldnt win for him anymore hurts him as well. I dont even have Lebron in the top ten of all time list.
Losing brain cells listening to this logic. Funniest one is… the mid range shot is prettier than a layup. Lol the midrange shot is a more difficult shot… Lebron has perfect the art of getting easy shots at the rim and yup… we penalise him for that… 😂😂😂. MJ stans are getting too silly
ummm the point isnt that its pretty, its that its effective and shifts the defense and is more unstoppable than attempt clogged lane layups... btw mj is a better finisher at the rim and freethrow line than lebron. kobes just better at the ft line
Lmao this narrative about team hopping. Lebron James has finished EVERY SINGLE CONTRACT that he has signed in the league…. EVERY SINGLE ONE. can someone explain to me why doing it the Michael Jordan and Kobe way is the only way? For 3 marks
why does he leave teams? maybe the early cavs he had somewhat of a legit reason with the management sucking but leaving miami? old d wade? how about cleveland part 2? no kyrie? is he a mercenary or a basketball player?
@@ArtIsDeadish why shouldn’t he leave?? Who decided that the only way to do it is to stay with one franchise? Lol… he’s doing a NBA tour… winning everywhere. Help me understand what wrong with finishing your contract and moving on?
@@johnnythekid4601 yeah… I love MJ… I wouldn’t care what he did… Jordan fans need to realise that liking Lebron doesn’t mean hating MJ… MJ probably wins it all playing woth Olajuwan… or another great defender and rebounder.
Lebrons aasist to turnover ratio is better than mj and kobe. Also if magic playes as long he would have more turnovers. Cappin out the gate. Bad shot selection is just as bad as most turnovers. Also a turnover isn't always on the passer. And i guess mj gone avg 30 in those 5 extra years and play 82 all 5 huh. 1🤣 only thing i guarantee is that he would shoot more shots than Bron.
of course bronsexuals like you do EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO JUSTIFY AND SPIN LEBRONS TURNOVERS INTO A POSITIVE STAT. IF JORDAN HAD 5000 TURNOVERS WOULD YOU ALSO SPIN IT THE SAME WAY OR JUST GO BY HIS TOTAL NUMBER OF TURNOVERS????
Man u dnt know basketball. Even john stockton turnovers went up when he scored more points. When u are responsible for the majority of the ball handling, shots and offense initiation, logisticly turnovers will go up. Also some loses were without another all nba player. Defense, man please. Lets stop the cap
Let’s put a bit more context. If Lebron attempted as many mid-jumpers and 3’s as MJ did, he won’t even get close to the scoring record. If they both played the same amount of years, it would look worst for Lebron.
after 21 seasons, lebron still can't pass Jordan's scoring average. Lucky for your king, Jordan only played 15 seasons: Jordan after 15 seasons: 32, 292 lebron after 15 seasons: 31, 038
@@WitNest.. it took lebron 18yrs to take as many shots as jordan did in history career. I want you to think about. And why you so impressed with mid range??? Why would lebron take so many mid range shots when he can’t be stopped from goin to the basket
@@DJRonnyRon1200 That’s the problem, he can’t drive to the basket. He can’t cross-over, he can’t back people bigger than him down. If you actually watch his games, he is far away from the basket almost all the time. And why am I impressed with mid-jumpers? Coz they’re effective. Jordan won 6 with it. Kobe won 5. Lebron won 4.
@@DJRonnyRon1200 And what is there to think about? Lebron was afraid of the ball in crunch time. You can watch game breakdowns and actually see Lebron staying far away from the ball even in his prime. He even has 4th quarter games where he scored 0. That’s what a GOAT is supposed to be?
Haven't seen any dismantling. I gave everyone the opportunity to argue from all angles as to why Lebron is the greatest, and all i get is emotion and Jordan put downs. Arguments for why MJ is GOAT involves MJ. Arguments why LBJ the GOAT involves MJ.
@@EarthlyGods Lebron couldn't even win when he had the best team and were the favorites with the best record.. Lol. Its why he's 4 and 6. Thus why you keep saying "he needs more help." Jordan had the right players around him, not the best. Jordan only had one all star in Pippen 4 of 6 years they won. Jordan won in 98 with the oldest, lowest scoring playoff supporting cast, and an injured sidekick against a stacked Jazz team that beat Olajuwon's superteam. Again, more lies and media parroting from you. Back then, we all knew Jordan's team was among lowest scoring playoff supporting cast. Stop trying to change history. Jordan's competition was serious.Lebron has never led more lowest scoring uipporting cast to titles. Jordan led the most. You're a hypocrite ignoring facts and you're a liar.
@@EarthlyGodsJordan had 0 all star teammates during his first championship. LeBron is the one that always recruits the best players to try and stack his team.
All this lebron hate is out of control. The goat debate is irrelevant since you can never compare. Different time, different game and different competition. MJ fans can say some stuff they think to be true and isn’t. You guys use longevity to harm his legacy but don’t let it be a bonus? MJ never beat the prime pistons or Celtics. Go check clutch stats. Lebron is actually better in the clutch. Turnovers happen from passing the ball and sometimes isn’t the passers fault. czcams.com/video/qjjW1l9KjXQ/video.htmlsi=d7F1jcdjt4QEyXH-
who was jordans finals opponents again? 1991: washed up magic johnson and james worthy 1992: clyde D trash 1993: charles barkley (loser non champ) 1996:gary p, shawn kemp 97: john stockton, karl malone 98:karl malone lebron has faced up against dynasties like the Tim D spurs and Warriors and multiple hall of famers like OKC squad.
So has MJ, playing against teams that actually won a lot of matches, unlike LeBron who played against teams that had very few wins throughout the season and playoffs. And when his team needed him the most, LeBron faltered and showed how flawed and weak he is mentally. He's nothing but an over grown high schooler with a massive ghetto ego.
LMAO Duncan was 40 when LeBron and his superteam beat the Spurs. But Magic was 2nd in mvp behind Jordan but was washed 😂 The baby Thunder barely had 2 All-Stars. Warriors became a dynasty on LeBron's watch. The Suns were a 50+win team that made the WCF before Barkley joined them. Imagine calling Drexler and the stacked Blazers trash. What are Al Horford Hawks or Lowry Raptors if Drexler Blazers are trash 😂 Watch games
It's amazing how illogical mj fanbase has become since bron starting getting comparisons to their false idol. I grew up a huge bulls/nba 90s fan,long before kobe & bron were ever UTTERED,I watched every finals all 3 were in. Coaching,rules,competition,personal lives,etc & I easily have bron over both,I even barely have kobe over mj. I refuse to be sheep minded in any aspect of life,its just a silly basketball opinion based discussion folks usually take WAY to serious but ignoring what bron has been doing longer than anyone is beyond foolish. If we only posted personal playoff stats,career totals in all categories,playoff wins,& longevity,& competition BLINDLY. There's no way any person who knows quite a bit about basketball would say mj is flat out better than bron,mj just came 1st,he never beat a great team in any aspect. If we wanna talk WINNING,bill russell & kareem easily have mj beat in being the best winners. Mj wore 4 jerseys in his entire career,high school,college & 2 in pro,he won titles in 2 of them but he was only the best player in one jersey DA BULLS. High school won nothing & with the wizards didnt even SEE the playoffs,let alone the finals. Bron won 4 jerseys in his career & won titles in every single JERSEY as the lead dog. St Vincent-St Mary's,Cleveland,Miami,& LA,so it can't be about WINNING as to why mj is better than bron,logically that doesn't work!
Jordan is clearly better at basketball. Jordan has better per game and advanced stats, better accolades, more clutch, more skilled, better defender, two-way player, and led a dynasty. And he did it in less time. LeBron played longer 6-0 with 6-FMVPs, no losing as the favorite or getting outplayed by a role player in the Finals.
@@sideshowbobsaget8876 TO YOU,i seen jordan way too many years in my household long before bron was ever heard of. Jordan is just overrated,great,but not the goat folks speak of. A great team,coach & gm can make anyone seem UNBEATABLE! He quit twice before finally retiring,thats a lot of rest & a weak mentality
@richardhardy8815 The Bulls were great because of Jordan. Jordan elevated his team and created a dynasty. When did Phil and Krause become great? LeBron has played with multiple great franchises, coaches, and players. Jordan retired after a 3peat to go play baseball. Retired after a 2nd 3peat at 35. Jordan coming back as a Wizard after yrs off worked against him. It's Harder to work yourself into shape, especially basketball shape. Nothing was weak about Jordan retirements. Jordan is considered the GOAT by a landslide. Jordan was recently voted the GOAT athlete LeBron didn't make the top 10.
@@sideshowbobsaget8876 You can believe what you WILL,thats your opinion. Bron has played for some good teams most of his career,but it hasn't been consistent,he's been consistent since high school. Jordan was a quitter who took off time & his team was still a top 5 team in the league,but you saying HE made them 😂😂
During Jordan era Jordan took by far the most shots in the nba. That’s prolly why he got all them titles. This video proves a lot why Lebron is better than ppl not understanding their own arguments
That’s his role and he was successful at it. Lebron tried it, but failed. So he went to being pass first then give it back to me so I can score open layups and dunks. MJ was creative and simple with his go-to moves, Lebron is just waiting for scraps.
Thats because MJ led more of the lowest scoring supporting cast than anyone else in history. And he did it with efficiency. Jordan took the most shots on the team, but he did it efficiently. And he had to.
@@alfasiger4178 Let’s look at it this way. MJ was a phenomenal scorer even when he was being hacked and tackled, he had a way to score. So, he had that scoring task, his crew provided the other essentials. Lebron on the other hand, even with his size and strength opted to play as a passer, coz he can’t dribble, he can’t shoot reliable mid-jumpers and 3’s are just lower percentage shots. He would’ve been more effective inside the paint, but he always stays far, making his supposed to be advantage useless.
@@WitNest.. I always noted that lebron would be better at the 4. Because of his bad shootinng, he would run the #4 offense which would force a smaller guard on him. He didn't have the skills that MJ had shoot against someone bigger, faster than him. Or his equal size. MJ had to take the most shots: cause he was the only efficient scorer the Bulls had against defense. LBJ just cannot do what MJ does.
@@alfasiger4178 He’s an over-glorified role player who doesn’t and can’t play his role. Imagine being that tall and athletic but play like a point guard without the creativity to back it up. No wonder he does those childish antics to appear stronger.
Magic Johnson is #1 in turnovers per game and LeBron never lead a season in turnovers or missed shots or most attempts lol y'all like totals that you think hurt Bron but ignore all the other WAY MORE GREAT total records lol😂
And y'all ignore MJs great total records. The mere fact that you have to downplay and dismiss everything Jordan did to make lebron look good is telling of who is GOAT. Lebron wasn't even considred the greatest because he fell short. Nick Wright and the media is who started this debate to keep fans engaged. Then all lebron fans do is parrot the media, while the media re-writes history to make lebron look good. Its all for views.
@@alfasiger4178 LeBron is considered the greatest and people use facts to prove it and y'all hate it no argument made on that video made Jordan the greatest 🤷🏽♂️
@@WitNest.. total turnovers don't make Jordan better lol top 5 in assists to turnover ratio more efficient than Jordan magic Johnson more turnovers per game YALL MAKE NO DAMN SENSE LOL
LeBron James is the Goat 🐐 and has been since 16yrs old. Kareem is 2nd. Damn Trump and right-wing nuts hatin on this man. If Jordan was the Goat you wouldn't have trash podcasts like this putting out videos EVERY WEEK TRYING TO CONVINCE PEOPLE JORDAN IS THE GOAT 😂😅😅 GET OVER IT ALREADY
LMFAO! Your GOAT airballs free throws, dribbles off feet, and puts up shots that hit nothing but the side of the backboard. Has 15+ minutes of Shaqtin a fool highlights . Chokes in the clutch, flops,travels, and is just lazy nowadays. Good luck with that
Jordan is not the GOAT!!! Stop using the stupid unintelligent championship argument!! Jordan had the best team all 6 times He won the championship. Stop pretending like He took a bunch of bums to championships!!! Jordan was supposed to win. All the other all time greats get disrespected due to the stupid championship argument. Every time Jordan had the best team He won a title. When He didn't have the best team He couldn't get to the Finals!! It's that plain and simple!!!
😂😂😂😂😂you lack of knowledge son dont be DELUSIONAL. In 91 lakers were favorite, 93 suns, 98 utah. Stop pretending lebron brought a bunch of drugs addicted in 07.he faced no one and in the game 3 and 4 he had a chance to win but he MELTDOWN. Jordan never did even when he lost in the first round thats all the difference !! You think a guy who is ''so big so strong and fast'' and who FLOPS deserve to be named GOAT ???😂😂😂😂😂 GTFO you like mediocrity thats fucked up !!!
The 73 wins warriors aint the best team EVER 😂😂😂they were down 3-1 in WCF VS HOUSTON !!! A LOT OF UNNECESSARY WINS THO. LEBUM DOMINATED THE LEAGUE FROM 2011-2012 TO 2014.😂 CURRY IS 3-1 VS HIM TIM DUNCAN 2-1 DURANT 2-1 DIRK 1-0 ... BIGGEST FRAUD EVER
I always thought that Koby was a ball hog but you just showed me LeBron is the ultimate ball hog, the King of all ball hogs. Now he stands around on offense and complains. What a douche.
MJ doesn't even qualify to rake goat 🐐 James leaves. Jordan wouldn't be 💩 without Nike shoes and Scottie Pippen. MJ is the most overrated player ever of all time. LeBron is light years better than that overrated bum.
It’s only basketball That’s why he is not the guy The guy that has “IT” He has never been a leader. Constantly passing the buck and moving somewhere else.
Jordan won 3 rings in 3 seasons. Retired for a couple years, then came back and won 3 more CONSECUTIVELY. He never let a Finals series even GO to a game 7. Jordan is GOAT
And the only player to get MVP, scoring title, All defensive award, Championship, and Finals mvp.
He did it 4 times.
Exactly
LeBron James is just Scottie Pippen with longevity. Except Scottie played way better defense.
Stop sayin “he never let a series go to game 7” sorry but he literally was ass in multiple game 6s yet HIS TEAM is the reason they didnt go to game 7
@@Geraldamyawhat are you talking about? Did you watch these games? Or you just talking about the highlights you've seen? Go watch every game of these series that you're talking about. I personally have watched every game multiple times You don't know what you're talking about.
Lebron ain't on the same level as MJ and will never be.
He didn’t even mention LeBron being a coach killer and needing MORE help every year.
Coach killer? Didn’t he take 3 coaches to the finals for the first time and win with em?… i dunno… I heard sumn like that
15all stars teammates
Nobody ever brings up the fact that there are only 2 guys that are in the top 25 all time in Usage, and bottom 50 in Turnover Percentage(meaning lowest TO%), those 2 guys are Michael Jordan and... Anthony Davis 😮 the difference? AD is 25th in Usage and a big not asked to handle the ball as much, Jordan is 1st in Usage, and was the primary ball handler for his team 💯
Great stat
he didnt really play point guard though. if he did i would assume his turnovers would go up but so would his assists
@@ArtIsDeadish I didn't say he did, but he was clearly the primary ball handler... he is #1 in Usage lol
@@ArtIsDeadish he did play point guard for 11 games and look how good he was.
There's another reason why LeBron isn't the goat and no one seems to be talking about it, and that is his shooting efficiency by distance. Here's LeBron's career stats by distance:
3pt: .348% (below league average)
16ft-3pt line: 386% (below league average)
10ft-16ft: .365% (below league average)
3ft-10ft: 429% (below league average)
0ft-3ft: 740% (above league average)
free throw: .736% (below league average)
To summarize, LeBron James is a below average shooter from everywhere on the court, except dunks and layups (in an era where the driving lanes are open). Nobody that poor at shooting from anywhere on the court should be in the discussion for goat
*That's a stupid argument because LeBron is a better 3pt shooter than Jordan and Kobe.*
😂😂😂
@@bigkev9539 First, I don't consider Jordan or Kobe the goat. Second, at least both of them were better shooters from midrange, free throw, short jumpers. So again, LeBron is a below average shooter from anywhere on the court except dunks and layups. That's it. BELOW AVERAGE, meaning below your mediocre NBA joe
@@leebrandt8597
*So because LeBron doesn't jack up inefficient mid-range jumpers, he's worse at scoring?*
*Also, EVERY NBA player's FG% goes down the further away from the basket they shoot, so that's a dumb argument.*
😂😂😂
@@bigkev9539 We could've had a discussion if you didn't make that last sentence. But because you did, imma have to school you. The argument, since I have to spell it out for someone unintelligent like you, is that LeBron isn't as good as the average, mediocre player from anywhere on the court: 3-10 feet (that's inside the paint), midrange, 3pt, free throw, EVERYWHERE. He's does worse than second-rate players from all distances, except dunks and layups (0-3 feet). Not the goat
@@leebrandt8597
*ONCE AGAIN, the argument that LeBron isn't a top 3 player ever because he doesn't settle for inefficient mid-range jumpers is STUPID because the "better" players almost all have LOWER career FG%s than him (ex: Allen Iverson, Paul Pierce, Kobe Bryant, MJ, etc.).*
*In both the regular season AND playoffs.*
LeKaren isn’t even Top 10
Facts !!
5:16 I think that most basketball players (men and women) would say that the worst statistic for any basketball player and/or basketball team to be connected to, is the TURNOVER statistic. Candace Parker said that the one thing that she learned about Diana Turasi, from playing with her in the Olympics, is how much she hates turnovers. And when you play basketball recreationally or organized, I think that turnovers do seem to completely drain you and your team, as well as demoralize you and your team, more than missed shots or bad calls from the referees.
I mean… the guys averages 7.8 assists for his career is gonna be 3rd all time probably… has generated 15k more points than anybody ever…
How many Turnovers should he average? Cause he’s on 3.4 and Jordan is on 2.7.
So would it better acceptable if he was at 2.7? Lol y’all are to invested in Jordan to see how ridiculous your arguments are
@@jaysandi88 So Jordan averages more points than any player in NBA HISTORY - 30.1 to LeBron’s 27.1 and Michael Jordan has more scoring titles than any player in NBA HISTORY - 10 to LeBron’s 1. So from your comment, LeBron has more longevity points because he has played 6 years longer than Jordan….LeBron James is shamefully refusing to retire, playing longer than any human being plays a professional sport because even after 21 years, 6 years longer than Jordan, LeBron James is still chasing Michael Jordan. You talk about his assists average PROBABLY taking LeBron to 3rd or 4th All-Time yet your biases are only outmatched by the amount was in your ears or house-dirt in your eyes, since I did not say that Jordan was PROBABLY 3rd or 4th in scoring average nor PROBABLY 3rd or 4th in Scoring Titles. So your Queen is playing longer than anybody in history just to be 3rd or 4th best, while Jordan played 6-10 years less to become 1st aka GOAT in the aforementioned categories. LeBron James refusing to retire because is too far beneath and too far behind Michael Jordan is sad and pathetic…..and I would describe your LeBum fans with the exact same two adjectives. 😅🤷♂️🔥💯
@@rollandcurtis874 you have problems dude… real ones… Lebron is not your enemy… the dude doesn’t even know you, let go of this hate. MJ was a scorer, that was his job. Lebron had to be a scorer in that one season cause his team sucked. His assists were down that season as well. MJ played a system game where the ball would go to him as the best option, probably because he’s a top 2/3 scorer of all time.
So help me understand why it’s shameful to play a sport that you’re great at even at 39? Why exactly is it shameful even when you’re still better than the vast majority of SUPERSTARS in the league? At 39 you’re still in the playoffs, people STILL have expectations.
Have you forgotten that MJ unretired and joined the Wizards? at 38? Was he shameful for returning? Y’all need help man… or just admit that hating Lebron is what gives you purpose… maybe then you’ll realise how ridiculous your hate is. Jesus. Lebron played 6 years longer cause he’s able to. He did the work to still be jumping out of the gym at 39. He’s still good enough… he’s still competitive… MJ wasn’t. And it’s ok… MJ isn’t Lebron and Lebron isn’t MJ. If you stopped hating and just watched basketball, you just might enjoy watching him
The rebuttal to the finals competition is that if LeBron's teams were simply placed into the Western Conference, he only makes the finals 4 times because the team that beat him in the finals would have knocked him out mid playoffs
Would have knocked him out?
How exactly do we know that?
Swept twice 4-1 twice,and 4-2 twice.. BUMM 🤣
I think LeBron got swept 4-0 twice and also lost 4-1 twice, is that what you meant? either way, it’s not a good look for LeBron…✌️
@@stevenaleman7454 yes
And the 5th-best scorer in the 2011 Finals.
MJ was the top scorer in every series he played, and never lost more than 2 games in a row throughout his entire 90s Bulls tenure. LeBum is not in the same galaxy.
@@shaft9000 let’s say Jordan is out of the conversation.
Who’s better than Lebron if you’re calling him a bum?
The thing is, if lebron fans don't care if the longevity got him the 40k, then they can't use it when it comes to the turnovers either for an excuse.
...and he secured that TO record before he teamed up with AD, 4 years ahead of the points record.
I think anyone who uses logic and not narrative will tell you that longevity is a double edged sword… Lebron is at the top of most lists because he has been a constant performer for decades. When you play the amount of minutes he does, you are very likely to rack up turnovers. MJ had 2.7 a game Lebron has 3.4… fact in how many assists he has… factor in how many touches he has… factor in how often he’s is double and triple teamed…
@jaysandi88 are u saying lebron gets doubled and tripled team 🤔
@@unpopulartruth8829 almost always
@jaysandi88 yea u not be serious 🤦🏾♂️have a nice day
For a pass first player, which everyone likes to claim about Lebron. The assist to turnover ratio is the worst in league history. 2 assists to every turnover. Magic who actually is a pass first player averaged around 12 assists so his ratio is 4 assist to turnover.
The LeBron media machine covers up all of his flaws and inconsistencies. Since he came into the league. Lies and narratives have been forced down our throats
Lol you forgot to mention he’s almost 3rd all time in assists
LeBron James is afraid to retire because he knows that he’ll be forgotten or placed in the background, especially when the next challenger to Jordan’s GOAT position arrives. When MJ retired the first time, Scottie himself got on TV to beg Jordan to return. The Air Jordans are more popular & successful now than they were while Jordan was playing.
Bron won't be forgotten. But he's obsessed with being worshipped as the "GOAT" because HE used to worship MJ that way as a kid. At least, that's what I gathered from how he comes off. And he's been trying and failing to one up Mike for years. We'll keep seeing him even after he retires, like how we see Isaiah Thomas but more, and worse.
He won't be forgotten but he knows his GOAT case would be forever closed without him achieving it.
@@trowabarton321 This is what people said about Kareem-Abdul Jabar….and now look at him. People said that they’ll never forget him, and now he’s hardly ever mentioned. 🤷♂️
@@rdogletree4543 This is what people said about Russell and Chamberlain….and now look at them. People said that they’ll never forget them, and now they’re hardly ever mentioned. 🤷♂️
Lebron will be forgotten about within 5 yrs of leaving the league.
I'll never forget this. I remember after the Cavs lost to Dwight's Magic. And Lebron walked off without shaking Dwight and anyone else's hand. He was criticized for it. Afterwards, he said that he didn't feel like he should have to shake anyone's hand after losing. And then he double downed on it months later, saying he'll apologize for skipping the media session but not apologizing for not shaking hands after losing. That's when I started to notice the kind of dude he was cause I had no opinion of him until after that series. I just thought he's a great player at the time.
😂😂😂😂 y’all invent these narratives in your heads to hate on a guy you don’t know
Well No# 1 MJ was undefeated in the Finals. Case Closed
He did a lot more than, in less time, in a tougher league. What he did on the bulls alone, no one has done.
@@alfasiger4178Right, it's not just the 6-0 record but 6 finals MVPs, 10x scoring champion, 9x All-Defensive First Team, 3x steals leader.
@@rdogletree4543 Only player to get 200+ steals and 100+ blocks twice.
Defensive player of year.
Only player to get DPOY and scoring title same season.
Went 626 games without losing 3 in a row.
Still leads in career ppg in regular, playoff, and finals.
Most clutch shots in history.
The only player to get Scoring title, All defensive award, MVP, Championship, and Finals MVP. (Did this 4 times)
Led the more lowest scoring playoff supporting cast to titles than anyone.
Bonus: Olympic Gold medalist, All American twice, NCAA champion, and considred to have the best mid range game of anyone.
No one has a better career in this sport than him.
@@alfasiger4178 Yes Sir, this man's resume is off the charts
He never Lost in Finals.
6xNBA finals&6xchampion
1xNCAA finals&1xchampion
2xOlympic finals&2xchamp.
9wins 0losses in Finals!!!!!
Never got to a game 7 in the Finals… against 60 + win teams…. Let that sink in
Unfortunately the argument against LeBron isn't that he turns the ball over it's when he turns the ball over, and he tends to turn it over at the worst moments at end of games.
Without Context : Jordan >>> Lebron
With Context : Jordan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lebron
Lebum about 20 shots away from all time leader in missed shots lol so l know this video is old 😅😅😅
Lebron fans are emotional. They act like not calling him the goat is the same as calling him trash. Trash person. Great player. But overrated player.
Not even close. Lebron is the most overrated athlete of all time
Mad Facts bro
Thank YOU
Amen
THIS...Perfectly valid arguments that he is not even top-10 All-Time are many.
Most TOs all time, Most missed shots all time, shoots 37% for his career outside of 3 feet, below avg freethrow shooter, takes waaaayyyyy to many plays off on defense, provides no off ball offense, cant be coached, etc. Can't call this type of olayer the GOAT.
_Greatest of Accumulating Turnovers_ is what "goat' actually stands for in his case
Don't forget all the games he takes off...way more than MJ
Lebron to shortcuts to winning championships. That's not GOAT material.
Now, now...LeBron *is* the _Greatest of Accumulating Turnovers,_ at least.
Most points in a NBA PLAYOFF Game is 63.... MJ 💯
Swept by Spurs, Swept by Warriors, Swept by Nuggets in Western Conference Finals. I'm only commenting because I heard 5-1 and 3 sweeps.
Here's the reality, if the bulls lost in one of those finals, that team is going to be considered one of the best teams ever. When you beat a team that dominated a decade, you're going to be considered one of the best ever.
Why don't we say how great Duncan is then? He lost to great teams and we're not sitting here putting him in the goat conversation.
Iggy got the mvp because Steph wasn't extraordinary. Jordan always wins when he is favored to win in the playoffs, LeBron not so much.
He quit against the Celtics the year after he lost to the Magic. He constantly leaves his team on the floor while they’re losing. The East was the weakest while he went to the finals so many times. These are important things. And he no showed against Dallas in 2011. At least one of these things gets you disqualified from the conversation. Add them all up.
Lebron isn't even better than Kobe.
LeBron not even in the top 5, maybe he is in the top 10. MAYBE! To put him in conversations with MJ is disrespectful
There is an undisputed goat, but it isn't Lebron
Lebron played the weakest competition to get to the finals, then hit real teams and lost.
Name the teams MJ played to get to the finals… then the teams he actually played in those finals… then do the same for Lebron side by side… don’t be shocked with what you find
@@jaysandi88 first MJ played more 60 win teams than Lebron so your argument is ridiculous, then actually read what I wrote. The East was super weak for Lebron to make the finals. This is why he made it so many times in a row and yet got destroyed in the finals. MJ had to play in the strongest conference of his time and had to fight through the best Celtics teams, best Pistons teams, best Cavs teams, the best Magic teams, the best Knick teams just to make the finals. Then when he got there he won. Pretty sure the Sonics, Jazz, Lakers and Suns were all great teams at the time MJ played them since they had won a ton of games to get to the finals. They all had great duos who were at the top of their games. Lebrons competition except for the warriors has not been better than those teams.
@@JayDay32 😂😂😂 mhm… did you read all this back to yourself after you wrote it? I think not. I actually don’t think you read what I wrote… do this… of all the losses Lebron had… 6… take all the teams that he played against from round 1 to the finals… then take MJs 6 wins… and do the same thing. If you do that objectively, comparing Rosters, win probabilities, season records, number of all NBA players in the team, even number of all stars. Hall of famers also if you want… do that comparison. Just for Lebrons losses and MJs wins. See what you find. MJ started winning in an expansion league just FYI… first series win was in his fourth year… Lebron went to the finals in his fourth year. Beating a Top 10 defence of ALL TIME in the conference finals… lol. Being as 60 win team doesn’t mean you’re good… it might just mean you’re in a weak conference… Lebron swept a 60win team… lol.
You Jordan fans have a blind spot when it comes to Lebron… it’s a mystery to me how far you will go to pretend like he’s a scrub compared to MJ. It’s ok to think MJ is the GOAT… but this toxic hatred of Lebron is REALLY alarming.
@@jaysandi88 you clearly weren’t actually alive during that time which is why you never actually saw how great the teams were. Amazing how you lebroes always try to bring out all these weird metrics to try to prove a point. Facts are facts. Lebron lost to a Mavs team where his team was clearly the better team and played like a child. That loss alone is enough to show he just isn’t that great, but then to lose to the Spurs when his team was favored as well is embarrassing. He also lost with the Cavs in his first stint with what a 63 win team and got blown out. Second fact, MJ never lost to a team with a worse record, Lebron has multiple times. That shows MJ was better and played that way, while Lebron was better and played bad.
@@JayDay32 lol… I was very much alive… but this has nothing to do with me… lol… so because Lebron had a terrible series he’s not great… forget all the other incredible series…. Even ones where he lost… because of that one he’s a scrub 😂😂😂 you folks need help… or you need a dose of reality… Lebron was not favoured in 2014… Wade had was injured and so was Bosh… they came into that series banged up… and Lebron was still BY A MILE the best player in the series.
Like I said… winning 63 games doesn’t always mean your team is good… the playoffs are about exposing weaknesses and maximising strengths, if your team has a glaring weakness, teams will beat you. That’s true for everyone and not just Lebron.
Lemme ask you. Leaving MJ aside, which player would you say is clearly better than Lebron all time?
Let’s not forget that when MJ was getting to Finals he was going through Bad boys, Knicks, Pacers, Shaq/Penny Magic.
Lebron was on Superteams beating who in his East?
Absolute cake walk to the Finals with his OP teams.
Also MJ’s didn’t have the tablet around like Lebron has. MJ’ s final opponents averaged 61 wins a season. So they were not chumps either.
People say "he didn't have enough help." They had the best record, were the favorites, and still lost. And they lost, because of James piss poor performance.
MJ is the GOAT. Always was, still is. This is just fact. Like saying the sun is hot.
The BUMM was blown out in all six finals losses😂😂gwoat(greatest waste of all time)🤷
Lebron has lost to teams with a worse record than his teams in the playoffs. MJ has never had that happen.
Imagine his fans when he retires,i guarantee they stop watching the nba
Michael has no LEFT, Lebron has no BRAINS...
When did lebron pass magic or duncan??? There is no Jordan debate
This BUMM now less than 30shits away from passing Kobe on all time list.bumm made up for 500 misses in one season.. amazing 😍
The turnover point want really a good one. Isaiah Thomas & Magic Johnson were both above him in topg, as well as Allen Iverson. & His again to turnover ratio is right on part with Jordan & way better than Kobe with far more assists. I'm not the biggest LeBron fan, but that was a weak point imo
Jordan had a harder road to the finals. Every year.
Jordan's Bulls teams were the best team in their Finals series by record, I believe, except once
Lebron did have ball in his hand more, but he also averaged fewer assists and had the worst assist to turnover ratio.
i understand but his role is definitely different than jordan's or kobe's.... honestly one of the few players playing in this generation that tries to take care of the ball as much as getting an assist is chris paul and hes been like that his entire career... end of a dying breed tbh
20:19 my counter argument to them saying that is, before that Bron eith the super team heat was the 2017-18 warriors. Cant knock teams because once again like the spurs did they figured out how to beat Lebron and use his own game against him. You cant knock KD who had to go up against Bron and and his super team for doing the same shit bron did. Because not sure you noticed but a lot of lebron fans hate KD for doing the same shit bron did, literally. KD took his talents to the bay area and won 2 titles like lebron did when he took his talents to south beach. Aint that funny to think about? To me in the video the giy makes a lot of great points but what ultimately disqualifys Bron from beijg in the GOAT debate is those finals losses. Not to mention before he left Cleveland for the first time, and despite having the best record in the nba, lost to two teams in the 2009-10 seasons that kobe turns around and beats and wins his 4th and 5th rings. That to me just puts a stain on his career, that kobe won more with less. Then you add the fact that this dude cant win without creating super teams on top of that. He literally makes Kobe look better. Only ppl who dont think so is lebron fans.
There’s entire communities of people who spend time making videos about why Lebron isn’t great…
Lol I think that says quite a lot about how great he really is
If you lose the ball while flopping, does it count as a turnover?
Y’all excuses are hilarious, even with facts in your face.
When you have to grasp so much to make a case for your goat, he ain’t the goat
Hey I’d contend that if Iggy wasn’t hurt in wcf against Houston then there is no way that harden and cp3 force a game 7
Thank you sir. I can't stand how many times the defensive impact of Iggy is forgotten or ignored.
@@ManOfYah-work-in-progress he would be the main guy to guard harden or cp3!
@@xcvsumextra Correct. Idk why I read your comment as a question, instead of a statement of fact, which it absolutely is.
You are correct, sir. Steve Kerr would put Iggy on either Harden or CP3.
You doubt that he won't win five chips in a row? Really? Lol. He will be lucky if he wins 1 more chip before he retires
The 3s thing is a product of eras
i agree
Lebum had to call for help had to join forces had to create superteams had to take steroids they had to stop hand checking to make it easier and still lost more than he won SMFH..everything else u can add on but u should start off by the superteams he needed to create to win..PATHETIC...but it's so many reasons which make him not even close that's why there's others that's better..Mike name should've NEVER been brought up with this FRAUD...I'll give him top 20-25 his mentality n always quitting on his team if shiidd dnt go his way another MAIN FACTOR it's just CRAZY some ppl even think he 2nd...those dnt REALLY know bball or sweep alota of his weaknesses under the rug
Not top 10 ln my opinion you can't rank a cheater 💯🤷
LEBRON JAMES IS THE GOAT IN CRYING, ARGUING AND COMPLAINING IN THE BASKETBALL COURT... 😂😂😂
*only recently started watching basketball closer the last year or so, and the conversations around it boggle my mind a lot of the time*
Maybe a lot of what I'll say has been talked about already so sorry if i repeat some idea someone has had; to me they're my novel thoughts.
A lot of the points made are great and raise some questions; but it feels like they're stopping 2 questions short of 'real' answers. The glaring elephant in the room not being talked about is the issue of a team game and looking at individual statistics. If you've played team sports you know there are things you can't do about it.
Even gamers who haven't played traditional sports know if you play great you don't necessarily win (think of the response any professional of any team sport has when asked why they didn't win - "i needed to play better isn't the answer - its 'we' did not play well (even if they take the self righteous lie and say 'its on me', its not - its almost always its on us) - There are times where individuals do "fumble" or "choke" and disappoint but every great player has been carried for moments by others and to rest an argument on "this individuals team record is 6-0" when a different player on the team could have easily missed a shot and lead to a loss, is irrational.
A ring is an objectively arbitrary threshold for greatness. It presupposes the importance of a stretch of winning, while downplaying consistency: which is especially confusing to ignore in a game where there is high variance. Injuries, teammates, coaches, match ups all of these things come into play for a team winning or losing. Which is fine if you want to structure the conversation around "the only thing I care about is a finals record" then you can have that conversation.
If hypothetically there was a game close enough that if Jordan missed one more shot in the playoffs and it caused his team to lose, why would his "goat" argument get any worse? Realistically he should be one shot worse than the alternate universe where he hit it. - in my mind 5-1 and missing one shot wouldn't be a big difference, but from the conversation it seems like that basketball player would be waaay lower ranked in your minds, which is very confusing.
Its like we used statistical lenses and then fail to see that we are looking at the trees and not the forest. If we use statistical analysis we should be looking at what would be likely to happen if that game was played out a large n number of times.
If we want to use statistics in basketball we should carry the statistical arguments and talk about how 6-0 is not a sample size where any confidence could be gained about and individual on a team. We are many layers of abstraction away from an individuals skill and performance being responsible for winning.
What percentage of a win do you give to a teams best player? Is it 100%, 50%, 25%? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that question.
In golf, or tennis, I could argue its still not even 100%, because the opposition has a lot to do with it, but when you start adding in having to deal with teammates on both your and the other team, the level of complexity to answer that question goes through the roof.
Lets go back and push that one missed shot to the logical extreme: if Jordan never got into the finals because his team was so ass, but by eye test was the best player, how many would say he's a goat? Or is basketball a game where if he is the best player on the worst team he's still able to go 6-0 in the finals? I don't think its that game from watching but what do i know.
Maybe the conversation has already been had but perhaps a useful thought experiment would be to take the players and swap them for each run of the playoffs (in this case Jordan/Lebron) would the outcome have changed? If your answer is MJ wins 10/10 in LeBron's shoes and and LeBron doesn't win 6/6, you've got your answer, but personally I highly doubt those are the numbers you'd come to. Remember thought you can't even be deterministic when you say X player would win in their shoes, it should be X player has a 10% better shot of winning. Which just shows you that some championships/rings are not about the player and are more about the situation around them. Its not 100%, id be very surprised its even around 50%.
A lot of people might hate the example, but the goat argument from an outsider does seem a lot like "dude flipped a coin and got heads 6 times in a row - he's the best," "the guy who flipped the coin 10 times only got 4 heads, he sucks". Its nice to live in a fantastical narrative that allows us to attribute winning to individual people because it dumbs down the conversation but team games are incredibly complex to analyze.
TLDR: The goat argument should be structured around "if Jordan was in this spot X would have happened, and if LeBron was in the same spot X wouldn't have happened." or some equivalent if you want to talk about rings
If you want to talk about aggregate statistics for who's best, you need to stick to aggregate statistics, you can't suddenly switch the convo to talk about championship wins. That shifts the conversation from a team award to an individual award. Which hopefully your answers to the above questions should point out.
6 chips 6-FMVPs, never lost as the favorite, never choked or outplayed by a role player in the Finals, better per game and advanced stats, better accolades, led a dynasty and did it in less time. Jordan is simply better/greater at basketball. LeBron has played longer.
what movie clip was that in the beginning???
its the end credit scene for the matrix 4
@@ArtIsDeadish thanx
The East was not as strong as y’all try to make it out to be either. LB is a threat to your favorite player favorite player that’s why bringing him is irrelevant!!!!
Dude reaction to this video stop capping for this BUMM BUMM BUMM 👎🤷
Not undisputed? 😅😅😅😅 he's not the GOAT PERIOD!! MJ #23 GOATED
That thumbnail is funny what about Abdul jabbar All 2s???
Lebron is a great player all time but he has too many weaknesses and too many uh weird ghings in his game. Lol that flopping and that cry baby epic crying to the refs is very cringe to watch. I also think that his creation of this age of player empowerment aka Superteams trying to stack his team with multiple allstars then jumping ship whenever he thought his allstars couldnt win for him anymore hurts him as well. I dont even have Lebron in the top ten of all time list.
Undisputed goat? Wtf? Man, these are some casuals over here. Undis... fucking really?
Lebalco james is the baby goat MJ IS the GOAT 🐐
Losing brain cells listening to this logic.
Funniest one is… the mid range shot is prettier than a layup.
Lol the midrange shot is a more difficult shot… Lebron has perfect the art of getting easy shots at the rim and yup… we penalise him for that… 😂😂😂.
MJ stans are getting too silly
ummm the point isnt that its pretty, its that its effective and shifts the defense and is more unstoppable than attempt clogged lane layups... btw mj is a better finisher at the rim and freethrow line than lebron. kobes just better at the ft line
@@ArtIsDeadish stats say that Lebron finishes better at the rim and from beyond the three point line…
@@jaysandi88 more excuses please
@@KoufalKoufax lol show me the excuse
This shit was wack af
BUT TRU G.O.A.T.S STAY ON ONE TEAM GOOD TIMES AND BAD.
Lmao this narrative about team hopping.
Lebron James has finished EVERY SINGLE CONTRACT that he has signed in the league…. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
can someone explain to me why doing it the Michael Jordan and Kobe way is the only way? For 3 marks
why does he leave teams? maybe the early cavs he had somewhat of a legit reason with the management sucking but leaving miami? old d wade? how about cleveland part 2? no kyrie?
is he a mercenary or a basketball player?
@@ArtIsDeadish why shouldn’t he leave??
Who decided that the only way to do it is to stay with one franchise? Lol… he’s doing a NBA tour… winning everywhere.
Help me understand what wrong with finishing your contract and moving on?
@@jaysandi88 so if jordan went team hopping would you have the same attitude towards him that you do lebron doing it?
@@johnnythekid4601 yeah… I love MJ… I wouldn’t care what he did… Jordan fans need to realise that liking Lebron doesn’t mean hating MJ… MJ probably wins it all playing woth Olajuwan… or another great defender and rebounder.
@@jaysandi88 lol you clearly dont love MJ stop capping you sound stupid AF
Lebrons aasist to turnover ratio is better than mj and kobe. Also if magic playes as long he would have more turnovers. Cappin out the gate. Bad shot selection is just as bad as most turnovers. Also a turnover isn't always on the passer. And i guess mj gone avg 30 in those 5 extra years and play 82 all 5 huh. 1🤣 only thing i guarantee is that he would shoot more shots than Bron.
of course bronsexuals like you do EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO JUSTIFY AND SPIN LEBRONS TURNOVERS INTO A POSITIVE STAT. IF JORDAN HAD 5000 TURNOVERS WOULD YOU ALSO SPIN IT THE SAME WAY OR JUST GO BY HIS TOTAL NUMBER OF TURNOVERS????
Turnovers and no defense = loses.
Man u dnt know basketball. Even john stockton turnovers went up when he scored more points. When u are responsible for the majority of the ball handling, shots and offense initiation, logisticly turnovers will go up. Also some loses were without another all nba player. Defense, man please. Lets stop the cap
Leclown is. AJoke
If lebron took the same amount of shots Jordan took. Lebron would of passed Jordan scoring looooong ago
Let’s put a bit more context. If Lebron attempted as many mid-jumpers and 3’s as MJ did, he won’t even get close to the scoring record. If they both played the same amount of years, it would look worst for Lebron.
after 21 seasons, lebron still can't pass Jordan's scoring average. Lucky for your king, Jordan only played 15 seasons:
Jordan after 15 seasons: 32, 292
lebron after 15 seasons: 31, 038
@@WitNest.. it took lebron 18yrs to take as many shots as jordan did in history career. I want you to think about. And why you so impressed with mid range??? Why would lebron take so many mid range shots when he can’t be stopped from goin to the basket
@@DJRonnyRon1200 That’s the problem, he can’t drive to the basket. He can’t cross-over, he can’t back people bigger than him down. If you actually watch his games, he is far away from the basket almost all the time. And why am I impressed with mid-jumpers? Coz they’re effective. Jordan won 6 with it. Kobe won 5. Lebron won 4.
@@DJRonnyRon1200 And what is there to think about? Lebron was afraid of the ball in crunch time. You can watch game breakdowns and actually see Lebron staying far away from the ball even in his prime. He even has 4th quarter games where he scored 0. That’s what a GOAT is supposed to be?
This is dumb all these arguments are so easily dismantled lol
Haven't seen any dismantling. I gave everyone the opportunity to argue from all angles as to why Lebron is the greatest, and all i get is emotion and Jordan put downs.
Arguments for why MJ is GOAT involves MJ.
Arguments why LBJ the GOAT involves MJ.
@@alfasiger4178 you will deny all facts lol Jordan only could win when he had the best team and players lol ZERO WINNING WITHOUT IT 🤷🏽♂️
@@EarthlyGods Lebron couldn't even win when he had the best team and were the favorites with the best record.. Lol. Its why he's 4 and 6. Thus why you keep saying "he needs more help."
Jordan had the right players around him, not the best. Jordan only had one all star in Pippen 4 of 6 years they won.
Jordan won in 98 with the oldest, lowest scoring playoff supporting cast, and an injured sidekick against a stacked Jazz team that beat Olajuwon's superteam.
Again, more lies and media parroting from you.
Back then, we all knew Jordan's team was among lowest scoring playoff supporting cast. Stop trying to change history. Jordan's competition was serious.Lebron has never led more lowest scoring uipporting cast to titles. Jordan led the most.
You're a hypocrite ignoring facts and you're a liar.
@@alfasiger4178 Jordan ZERO WINNING without best team and players ZERO WINNING he was t even competitive 🤦🏽♂️
@@EarthlyGodsJordan had 0 all star teammates during his first championship. LeBron is the one that always recruits the best players to try and stack his team.
I just wanted to hear the jokes you guys would make. Lol
the excuse you guys make are hilarious, even facts were handed right on your faces LOL
All this lebron hate is out of control. The goat debate is irrelevant since you can never compare. Different time, different game and different competition. MJ fans can say some stuff they think to be true and isn’t. You guys use longevity to harm his legacy but don’t let it be a bonus? MJ never beat the prime pistons or Celtics. Go check clutch stats. Lebron is actually better in the clutch. Turnovers happen from passing the ball and sometimes isn’t the passers fault. czcams.com/video/qjjW1l9KjXQ/video.htmlsi=d7F1jcdjt4QEyXH-
LeBron isn't better in the clutch. Jordan is the consensus GOAT.
who was jordans finals opponents again?
1991: washed up magic johnson and james worthy
1992: clyde D trash
1993: charles barkley (loser non champ)
1996:gary p, shawn kemp
97: john stockton, karl malone
98:karl malone
lebron has faced up against dynasties like the Tim D spurs and Warriors and multiple hall of famers like OKC squad.
So has MJ, playing against teams that actually won a lot of matches, unlike LeBron who played against teams that had very few wins throughout the season and playoffs. And when his team needed him the most, LeBron faltered and showed how flawed and weak he is mentally. He's nothing but an over grown high schooler with a massive ghetto ego.
LMAO Duncan was 40 when LeBron and his superteam beat the Spurs. But Magic was 2nd in mvp behind Jordan but was washed 😂
The baby Thunder barely had 2 All-Stars. Warriors became a dynasty on LeBron's watch.
The Suns were a 50+win team that made the WCF before Barkley joined them. Imagine calling Drexler and the stacked Blazers trash. What are Al Horford Hawks or Lowry Raptors if Drexler Blazers are trash 😂
Watch games
It's amazing how illogical mj fanbase has become since bron starting getting comparisons to their false idol. I grew up a huge bulls/nba 90s fan,long before kobe & bron were ever UTTERED,I watched every finals all 3 were in. Coaching,rules,competition,personal lives,etc & I easily have bron over both,I even barely have kobe over mj. I refuse to be sheep minded in any aspect of life,its just a silly basketball opinion based discussion folks usually take WAY to serious but ignoring what bron has been doing longer than anyone is beyond foolish. If we only posted personal playoff stats,career totals in all categories,playoff wins,& longevity,& competition BLINDLY. There's no way any person who knows quite a bit about basketball would say mj is flat out better than bron,mj just came 1st,he never beat a great team in any aspect. If we wanna talk WINNING,bill russell & kareem easily have mj beat in being the best winners. Mj wore 4 jerseys in his entire career,high school,college & 2 in pro,he won titles in 2 of them but he was only the best player in one jersey DA BULLS. High school won nothing & with the wizards didnt even SEE the playoffs,let alone the finals. Bron won 4 jerseys in his career & won titles in every single JERSEY as the lead dog. St Vincent-St Mary's,Cleveland,Miami,& LA,so it can't be about WINNING as to why mj is better than bron,logically that doesn't work!
Jordan is clearly better at basketball. Jordan has better per game and advanced stats, better accolades, more clutch, more skilled, better defender, two-way player, and led a dynasty. And he did it in less time. LeBron played longer
6-0 with 6-FMVPs, no losing as the favorite or getting outplayed by a role player in the Finals.
@@sideshowbobsaget8876 TO YOU,i seen jordan way too many years in my household long before bron was ever heard of. Jordan is just overrated,great,but not the goat folks speak of. A great team,coach & gm can make anyone seem UNBEATABLE! He quit twice before finally retiring,thats a lot of rest & a weak mentality
@richardhardy8815 The Bulls were great because of Jordan. Jordan elevated his team and created a dynasty. When did Phil and Krause become great? LeBron has played with multiple great franchises, coaches, and players. Jordan retired after a 3peat to go play baseball. Retired after a 2nd 3peat at 35. Jordan coming back as a Wizard after yrs off worked against him. It's Harder to work yourself into shape, especially basketball shape. Nothing was weak about Jordan retirements.
Jordan is considered the GOAT by a landslide. Jordan was recently voted the GOAT athlete LeBron didn't make the top 10.
@@sideshowbobsaget8876 You can believe what you WILL,thats your opinion. Bron has played for some good teams most of his career,but it hasn't been consistent,he's been consistent since high school. Jordan was a quitter who took off time & his team was still a top 5 team in the league,but you saying HE made them 😂😂
Ppl who think jordan is better than Lebron needs HELP!
Nah, it’s Lebron who always needs help.
Can you prove that statistically, please, sir? How do you measure that? Is it accolades? What, I'm honestly curious.
@@BakStreet_Mreen What? Who?
LEBRON is the only one who always needs HELP.
@witnest1287 That 🤡 boy who posted that comment needs to prove why we need " HELP " for stating facts 😂
During Jordan era Jordan took by far the most shots in the nba. That’s prolly why he got all them titles. This video proves a lot why Lebron is better than ppl not understanding their own arguments
That’s his role and he was successful at it. Lebron tried it, but failed. So he went to being pass first then give it back to me so I can score open layups and dunks. MJ was creative and simple with his go-to moves, Lebron is just waiting for scraps.
Thats because MJ led more of the lowest scoring supporting cast than anyone else in history. And he did it with efficiency.
Jordan took the most shots on the team, but he did it efficiently. And he had to.
@@alfasiger4178 Let’s look at it this way. MJ was a phenomenal scorer even when he was being hacked and tackled, he had a way to score. So, he had that scoring task, his crew provided the other essentials. Lebron on the other hand, even with his size and strength opted to play as a passer, coz he can’t dribble, he can’t shoot reliable mid-jumpers and 3’s are just lower percentage shots. He would’ve been more effective inside the paint, but he always stays far, making his supposed to be advantage useless.
@@WitNest.. I always noted that lebron would be better at the 4. Because of his bad shootinng, he would run the #4 offense which would force a smaller guard on him. He didn't have the skills that MJ had shoot against someone bigger, faster than him. Or his equal size.
MJ had to take the most shots: cause he was the only efficient scorer the Bulls had against defense.
LBJ just cannot do what MJ does.
@@alfasiger4178 He’s an over-glorified role player who doesn’t and can’t play his role. Imagine being that tall and athletic but play like a point guard without the creativity to back it up. No wonder he does those childish antics to appear stronger.
Magic Johnson is #1 in turnovers per game and LeBron never lead a season in turnovers or missed shots or most attempts lol y'all like totals that you think hurt Bron but ignore all the other WAY MORE GREAT total records lol😂
Well people celebrate his 40k total so why not criticize his negative totals?
And y'all ignore MJs great total records.
The mere fact that you have to downplay and dismiss everything Jordan did to make lebron look good is telling of who is GOAT.
Lebron wasn't even considred the greatest because he fell short. Nick Wright and the media is who started this debate to keep fans engaged.
Then all lebron fans do is parrot the media, while the media re-writes history to make lebron look good. Its all for views.
@@alfasiger4178 no we don't his records just no where near better or more than Bron 🤷🏽♂️
@@alfasiger4178 LeBron is considered the greatest and people use facts to prove it and y'all hate it no argument made on that video made Jordan the greatest 🤷🏽♂️
@@WitNest.. total turnovers don't make Jordan better lol top 5 in assists to turnover ratio more efficient than Jordan magic Johnson more turnovers per game YALL MAKE NO DAMN SENSE LOL
LeBron James is the Goat 🐐 and has been since 16yrs old. Kareem is 2nd. Damn Trump and right-wing nuts hatin on this man. If Jordan was the Goat you wouldn't have trash podcasts like this putting out videos EVERY WEEK TRYING TO CONVINCE PEOPLE JORDAN IS THE GOAT 😂😅😅 GET OVER IT ALREADY
LMFAO! Your GOAT airballs free throws, dribbles off feet, and puts up shots that hit nothing but the side of the backboard. Has 15+ minutes of Shaqtin a fool highlights . Chokes in the clutch, flops,travels, and is just lazy nowadays. Good luck with that
lol at 16?
Jordan is not the GOAT!!! Stop using the stupid unintelligent championship argument!! Jordan had the best team all 6 times He won the championship. Stop pretending like He took a bunch of bums to championships!!! Jordan was supposed to win. All the other all time greats get disrespected due to the stupid championship argument. Every time Jordan had the best team He won a title. When He didn't have the best team He couldn't get to the Finals!! It's that plain and simple!!!
😂😂😂😂😂you lack of knowledge son dont be DELUSIONAL. In 91 lakers were favorite, 93 suns, 98 utah. Stop pretending lebron brought a bunch of drugs addicted in 07.he faced no one and in the game 3 and 4 he had a chance to win but he MELTDOWN. Jordan never did even when he lost in the first round thats all the difference !!
You think a guy who is ''so big so strong and fast'' and who FLOPS deserve to be named GOAT ???😂😂😂😂😂 GTFO you like mediocrity thats fucked up !!!
The 73 wins warriors aint the best team EVER 😂😂😂they were down 3-1 in WCF VS HOUSTON !!! A LOT OF UNNECESSARY WINS THO. LEBUM DOMINATED THE LEAGUE FROM 2011-2012 TO 2014.😂 CURRY IS 3-1 VS HIM TIM DUNCAN 2-1 DURANT 2-1 DIRK 1-0 ... BIGGEST FRAUD EVER
The 3-1 thing was against the Oklahoma City Thunder
I always thought that Koby was a ball hog but you just showed me LeBron is the ultimate ball hog, the King of all ball hogs. Now he stands around on offense and complains. What a douche.
MJ doesn't even qualify to rake goat 🐐 James leaves. Jordan wouldn't be 💩 without Nike shoes and Scottie Pippen. MJ is the most overrated player ever of all time. LeBron is light years better than that overrated bum.
LMAO, Jordan made Nike and Pippen. Jordan was called the GOAT before he stepped foot in the NBA
It’s only basketball
That’s why he is not the guy
The guy that has “IT”
He has never been a leader. Constantly passing the buck and moving somewhere else.