Great video Chuck. The LE admin / instructors who are still afraid of magnified optics because they think their guys are going to start shooting dudes 300 yards away need to realize it's actually about that scenario you described. From my experience, it can also give guys on perimeters more options on where to set up - farther away, better concealment and cover - which can buy them more time, and more options. Combine that with better target ID, their need to use deadly force may actually decrease because of an LPVO.
The description you gave for using a LPVO on a patrol is exactly the way I got it sold to use at work. I run a Razor-E on my patrol rifle and get the best of both worlds while only giving up a little bit in weight.
Excellent information. It's good to hear someone acknowledge the fact that "there is no free lunch". For everything gained there will be something lost. Its up to the end user to overstand if what's gained is more valuable that what is lost. Also, the truth is most people in the roles of LE that make decisions truly don't have a clue about performance shooting and or do not trust their officers. The second half of that I fully agree with. When it comes to LE being proficient with firearms, we will just say their reputation as a whole far exceeds their abilities. You know the level or training that comes with truly being proficient and the penny pinchers spend just enough on training to give an illusion of professionalism. They are just simply not willing to spend what it takes for the training. Thats why any officer you know that takes their skills seriously, has to take it upon themselves to train. With that being said, its supported by taxes so every department cant have a training budget of HRT.
Excellent info on the red dot/3x combo. That was a great explanation on SA (situational awareness for the others reading this) and being able to hit what’s available to you. Another gold nugget for many.
I'm really liking the Vortex Micro 3x. Also what is mentioned @ 1:34 about zeroing with magnification.. fairly certain one would want to zero the dot itself, then the magnifier is just centered.
im not sure about other red dots, but On my eotech I zeroed with magnifier first. then confirmed unmagnified with tennis balls at 100 yards. there is less parallax shift with eotechs, and the newer aimpoints, or so I've heard. also with eotechs magnifiers your just centering the reticle. The dials stick out and rotate freely. and my rifle in a soft bag will move those dials sometimes. But it has never shifted my point of impact. But with the vortex it looks more like you have to zero that with the optic of your choosing because of how the adjustments are done more like a scope with caps. Maybe because it is intended for a larger range of optics than the eotech magnifiers where shifting of zeros is more of a concern. I think especially with smaller red dots.
More excellent information. This was extremely valuable info for me. I’ve wondered about this for a longtime. I always make sure I thank you Chuck for your time. I know your time is valuable and you could be doing other things. So I’m very grateful that you would take the time to give us all this free info. Thank you so much!
Spot on Chuck. For me personally, I've developed an astigmatism in the past several years, so I am actually gravitating more towards LPVO and less with red dot optics (with a few exceptions). My patrol rifle is a 12.5 inch LMT Defense build with a Nightforce NX8 1-8. Although I am not exactly a huge fan of the size of reticle with it on 8 power, the clarity of glass and me being able to get pinpoint PID on my targets is a game changer.
Lpvo with a 45 degree offset red dot. Use the one you need when you need it. For those situations, or a kinda end all solution that's best of both worlds. Lpvo rocks but also has limits in real world application. Bad eye relief, hard to use from weird angles. Not a problem if your on a line during practice. But run drills from barricades and cover and you start to notice these things. And cranking from 1x to 6x can be a pain on some optics without a throw leaver. And even then takes some time not looking down sights well because it's hard to adjust one handed. So they all have tradeoffs. Red dots are amazing at short to medeum range. Lpvo owns them at range and target id. That's why both is my answear.
the lvpo with offset red dot is the most versatile for sure. But I find myself loving the eotech magnifier combo. I think the reticle gives you some means of rangefinding, without being too crowded. But past 400, hit probability drops as your finding the right hold, and as wind starts to drift the round. Than the BDC of an lvpo really changes the game. One thing that does bridge the gap a little are red dots with BDCs and magnifiers.
I don't know why my videos from my computer will add the autp description with tags, FB and patreon link, but my mobile app doesn't. So any videos I upload from my phone are not getting the love.
I don't need "long range." That's why I went "red dot and 3x magnifier." My next move will be to cut out the middle man and just go with a "3x Prism." But I just dont see an LPVO in my immediate future
I never knew about the POI shift on magnifiers until this video. For me that's a complete non-starter. In my brain the gun should hit where I point it, and I don't want to play games with zero shift.
@@presscheckconsulting3449 That's one of those statements that would go into an article without intending to be funny, but here we are. Good stuff Chuck, keep it comin'.
Great execution. Unity showed me the prototype at SOFIC in spring of 2018. I have not live fired the final production model with an Aimpoint magnifier so I don't know where its at on zero shift. I do know that the G33 magnifier is NOT compatible with the Unity magnifier mount. There is space conflict between the knobs on the G33 and mount. Trent Zimmer (owner of Unity) was non committal about designing a seperate mount for the G33 in the future. He might if he thinks there is a market for it, or it might be too hard from an engineering standpoint. Who knows. I will end up setting up a rifle with a T2 or M5 and a 3X later part of this year or next year.
You told me swavorski was better than the kahles. I would a z6i. Is that the model you would suggest over the kahles. Also how to I find your podcast ?
Yeah I'm going to drop the money later this year for a z6i and a z8i later this year after I recover from the money I'm dumping into my 4Runner buildout.
When you used magnifiers, had you zeroed the magnifier itself as well? Cowan just made a video about how you need to do that so there is no zero shift.
Some guys don't have an issue OR are grouping within the shift tolerance. RDS/magnifier combos are polarizing. Dudes either love them or hate them. I used them on night fighting guns because if I used them during daylight, it was inextremis. The magnifier wasn't even on the rifle during missions, it was added afrer sunrise. If I went out during daylight, I was using LPVO and a longer barrel.
For DMR I'm leaning towards NF ATACR 1-8 for patrol rifle The Vortex Razor HDII "E" which is the lighter version of the Razor. I played with the Khales and it's good but more expensive than the Vortex. I had a Steiner, the stadia lines of the reticle were too fat. Leupy Mk6 1-6 has a tight eye box and the dot is not bright enough, but it's light. I'm also using a Leupy Mk5 3.5-18 on a DMR and will add an offset MRDS for that rig. Dollar for dollar the boat anchor (razor HD II) has no equal IMHO.
Do you think the weight difference between the razor gen 2 and the gen 2 "e" is significant enough to trade up. Also what reticle do you prefer and why?. Thank you in advance for your response @@presscheckconsulting3449
@@markfrenzel9107 I would, when I had the money. I would NOT take a hit selling the old one unless you got a great deal on it, I would throw it on another AR and put the E model on your goto gun.
Appreciate the response sir. Whats your feeling on the mrad vs bdc reticle. My current optic has the bdc but I think the mrad may be more versatile (wind holds and ranging). Thankfully Vortex has a solid LE discount so the hit is bearable for increased capability. @@presscheckconsulting3449
Aaron from sage dynamics talk about zeroing RDS + magnifier properly. He says to zero RDS first then add magnifier and shoot groups. If there's a shift, zero the magnifier. It seems like your guys did the backwards. Zeroed with magnifier first then noticed zero shift. I think that's the problem. Check out this video czcams.com/video/fryJ4DQ0Lxc/video.html
When I was still working I did operations by day and at night. I hade the ability to select uppers based upon the mission and time of day. When going out at night the limited visibility of night vision really meant that the velocity advantage of a longer barrel was not necessary, especially suppressed where the overall length could be problematic. During day operations visibility opened up for myself AND the enemy and engagement distances increased GREATLY. So a longer barrel was more practical and capable than an SBR.
VORTEX strike fire red dot paired with VMX-3T magnifier is pretty damn accurate up to 100yds. Driving nails at 60yds and that's with 8in barrel. Baseball size targets with my fuzzy eye sight is doing pretty well. Not bragging, just saying. 🇺🇸🇺🇸
Great video Chuck. The LE admin / instructors who are still afraid of magnified optics because they think their guys are going to start shooting dudes 300 yards away need to realize it's actually about that scenario you described. From my experience, it can also give guys on perimeters more options on where to set up - farther away, better concealment and cover - which can buy them more time, and more options. Combine that with better target ID, their need to use deadly force may actually decrease because of an LPVO.
#RazorHDlife
The description you gave for using a LPVO on a patrol is exactly the way I got it sold to use at work. I run a Razor-E on my patrol rifle and get the best of both worlds while only giving up a little bit in weight.
I love me some Razor-E MRAD....
Excellent information. It's good to hear someone acknowledge the fact that "there is no free lunch". For everything gained there will be something lost. Its up to the end user to overstand if what's gained is more valuable that what is lost. Also, the truth is most people in the roles of LE that make decisions truly don't have a clue about performance shooting and or do not trust their officers. The second half of that I fully agree with. When it comes to LE being proficient with firearms, we will just say their reputation as a whole far exceeds their abilities. You know the level or training that comes with truly being proficient and the penny pinchers spend just enough on training to give an illusion of professionalism. They are just simply not willing to spend what it takes for the training. Thats why any officer you know that takes their skills seriously, has to take it upon themselves to train. With that being said, its supported by taxes so every department cant have a training budget of HRT.
Excellent info on the red dot/3x combo. That was a great explanation on SA (situational awareness for the others reading this) and being able to hit what’s available to you. Another gold nugget for many.
Love these little Q + A vids man.
I'm really liking the Vortex Micro 3x.
Also what is mentioned @ 1:34 about zeroing with magnification.. fairly certain one would want to zero the dot itself, then the magnifier is just centered.
im not sure about other red dots, but On my eotech I zeroed with magnifier first. then confirmed unmagnified with tennis balls at 100 yards. there is less parallax shift with eotechs, and the newer aimpoints, or so I've heard. also with eotechs magnifiers your just centering the reticle. The dials stick out and rotate freely. and my rifle in a soft bag will move those dials sometimes. But it has never shifted my point of impact. But with the vortex it looks more like you have to zero that with the optic of your choosing because of how the adjustments are done more like a scope with caps. Maybe because it is intended for a larger range of optics than the eotech magnifiers where shifting of zeros is more of a concern. I think especially with smaller red dots.
More excellent information. This was extremely valuable info for me. I’ve wondered about this for a longtime. I always make sure I thank you Chuck for your time. I know your time is valuable and you could be doing other things. So I’m very grateful that you would take the time to give us all this free info. Thank you so much!
Once again just pure gold. This is the kind of LE training we need. Real world experience
Love this video in light of the Phoenix hostage situation. Keep up the good work
Best explanation i have ever heard on this subject.
Spot on Chuck. For me personally, I've developed an astigmatism in the past several years, so I am actually gravitating more towards LPVO and less with red dot optics (with a few exceptions). My patrol rifle is a 12.5 inch LMT Defense build with a Nightforce NX8 1-8. Although I am not exactly a huge fan of the size of reticle with it on 8 power, the clarity of glass and me being able to get pinpoint PID on my targets is a game changer.
Lpvo with a 45 degree offset red dot. Use the one you need when you need it. For those situations, or a kinda end all solution that's best of both worlds. Lpvo rocks but also has limits in real world application. Bad eye relief, hard to use from weird angles. Not a problem if your on a line during practice. But run drills from barricades and cover and you start to notice these things. And cranking from 1x to 6x can be a pain on some optics without a throw leaver. And even then takes some time not looking down sights well because it's hard to adjust one handed. So they all have tradeoffs. Red dots are amazing at short to medeum range. Lpvo owns them at range and target id. That's why both is my answear.
the lvpo with offset red dot is the most versatile for sure. But I find myself loving the eotech magnifier combo. I think the reticle gives you some means of rangefinding, without being too crowded. But past 400, hit probability drops as your finding the right hold, and as wind starts to drift the round. Than the BDC of an lvpo really changes the game. One thing that does bridge the gap a little are red dots with BDCs and magnifiers.
Was always wondering about that zero shift when using magnifier/red dot combo.
I don’t think anyone could put that any better.
Sweet! I run that same xps and g33 combo. Love em! Cheers Chuck dawg!
Linking your socials and Patreon in the description would be helpful.
I don't know why my videos from my computer will add the autp description with tags, FB and patreon link, but my mobile app doesn't. So any videos I upload from my phone are not getting the love.
Thanks for the details
Solid advice as always. Thanks.
Well that just saved me money. I like it.
Guess who has that Eotech/Wilcox setup?
I don't need "long range." That's why I went "red dot and 3x magnifier."
My next move will be to cut out the middle man and just go with a "3x Prism."
But I just dont see an LPVO in my immediate future
You see the new mini 3x magnifier out and that dope unity tactical flip DOWN center line shit 🤤
Good shit. Thank you 👍
Again, So Good!
I never knew about the POI shift on magnifiers until this video. For me that's a complete non-starter. In my brain the gun should hit where I point it, and I don't want to play games with zero shift.
Zero Shift goes unreported because most shooters are shooting larger groups than the impact shift.
@@presscheckconsulting3449 That's one of those statements that would go into an article without intending to be funny, but here we are. Good stuff Chuck, keep it comin'.
Precision all things.
Chuck said dog balls like that was a bad thing?
Damn I was having this discussion in my head literally this morning...
why don't you adjust the magnifier to remove zero shift?
Have you tried a Holosun 510C 3mag Combo?
Yas.
I know we can't have links to products but can you list the part numbers of things you reference in the discription please?
I can try to do some google searching at the L3 and Wilcox websites and and see what I can come up with.
@@presscheckconsulting3449 it's easy enough to Google G33 but Wilcox shit is a bit tougher :P. Rock on.
Do you have any interest in the new Unity Tactical magnifier mount?
Would like to know too
Great execution. Unity showed me the prototype at SOFIC in spring of 2018. I have not live fired the final production model with an Aimpoint magnifier so I don't know where its at on zero shift. I do know that the G33 magnifier is NOT compatible with the Unity magnifier mount. There is space conflict between the knobs on the G33 and mount. Trent Zimmer (owner of Unity) was non committal about designing a seperate mount for the G33 in the future. He might if he thinks there is a market for it, or it might be too hard from an engineering standpoint. Who knows. I will end up setting up a rifle with a T2 or M5 and a 3X later part of this year or next year.
You told me swavorski was better than the kahles. I would a z6i. Is that the model you would suggest over the kahles. Also how to I find your podcast ?
patreon.com/presscheckconsulting
Yeah I'm going to drop the money later this year for a z6i and a z8i later this year after I recover from the money I'm dumping into my 4Runner buildout.
When you used magnifiers, had you zeroed the magnifier itself as well? Cowan just made a video about how you need to do that so there is no zero shift.
Well. I have my mind made up. I cannot think of a better source. No 3X for me
If you could only have one gun, EOTech or LPVO?
LPVO, no question.
@@presscheckconsulting3449 thank you sir!
Presscheck Consulting FFP or SFP?
I must be lucky or a terrible shot if I never noticed a poi shift with magnifier/no magnifier
Some guys don't have an issue OR are grouping within the shift tolerance. RDS/magnifier combos are polarizing. Dudes either love them or hate them. I used them on night fighting guns because if I used them during daylight, it was inextremis. The magnifier wasn't even on the rifle during missions, it was added afrer sunrise. If I went out during daylight, I was using LPVO and a longer barrel.
Hey Chuck. Whats your choice for LPVO? Thanks.
For DMR I'm leaning towards NF ATACR 1-8 for patrol rifle The Vortex Razor HDII "E" which is the lighter version of the Razor. I played with the Khales and it's good but more expensive than the Vortex. I had a Steiner, the stadia lines of the reticle were too fat. Leupy Mk6 1-6 has a tight eye box and the dot is not bright enough, but it's light.
I'm also using a Leupy Mk5 3.5-18 on a DMR and will add an offset MRDS for that rig. Dollar for dollar the boat anchor (razor HD II) has no equal IMHO.
Thanks for the detailed answer.
Do you think the weight difference between the razor gen 2 and the gen 2 "e" is significant enough to trade up. Also what reticle do you prefer and why?. Thank you in advance for your response @@presscheckconsulting3449
@@markfrenzel9107 I would, when I had the money. I would NOT take a hit selling the old one unless you got a great deal on it, I would throw it on another AR and put the E model on your goto gun.
Appreciate the response sir. Whats your feeling on the mrad vs bdc reticle. My current optic has the bdc but I think the mrad may be more versatile (wind holds and ranging). Thankfully Vortex has a solid LE discount so the hit is bearable for increased capability. @@presscheckconsulting3449
LPVO, what kind?
I'm a fan of the Vortex Razor HD gen2 E 1-6× with MRAD reticle.
Aaron from sage dynamics talk about zeroing RDS + magnifier properly. He says to zero RDS first then add magnifier and shoot groups. If there's a shift, zero the magnifier. It seems like your guys did the backwards. Zeroed with magnifier first then noticed zero shift. I think that's the problem. Check out this video
czcams.com/video/fryJ4DQ0Lxc/video.html
If money wasn’t a factor, would you buy the kahles 1-6 or the new razor e series.
Swarovski...... lol
Lol ok money was not an issue on the two lol
Kahles probably, but a lot of it has to do with personal preference.
Thanks.
👍🏻🇺🇸
Why do you call 14.5 in guns Day Time Guns?
When I was still working I did operations by day and at night. I hade the ability to select uppers based upon the mission and time of day. When going out at night the limited visibility of night vision really meant that the velocity advantage of a longer barrel was not necessary, especially suppressed where the overall length could be problematic. During day operations visibility opened up for myself AND the enemy and engagement distances increased GREATLY. So a longer barrel was more practical and capable than an SBR.
@@presscheckconsulting3449 makes sense. Thank You!!
VORTEX strike fire red dot paired with VMX-3T magnifier is pretty damn accurate up to 100yds. Driving nails at 60yds and that's with 8in barrel.
Baseball size targets with my fuzzy eye sight is doing pretty well.
Not bragging, just saying. 🇺🇸🇺🇸