Tech Diver Reacts To Serious CCR Bailout Incident!
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- čas přidán 16. 10. 2022
- CCR Trimix Technical Diver and Deep Wreck enthusiast, Steve Luchon reacts to a video of a dive that happened in early Spring, 2021. Rebreather Diver Sam was doing a deep wreck dive, at night, with his buddy, when something went horribly wrong! Watch this scary incident unfold in this video and see how same has to fight for his life! Also, watch Sam's interview where he explains the whole thing!
Sam’s CZcams channel and Original video:
• CCR Bailout - KISS Reb...
At the Foot of the Sphinx by Twin Musicom is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. creativecommons.org/licenses/...
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@DIVETALK @TURSTY09 - Zábava
The highest performing teams can have the hardest conversations. Brilliant humility, I learned a lot. Thanks very much. 🙏
Thank you
Hey @Sailing Rattler - Diving KissCCR - Sam McD, fellow Kiwi KISS diver here. Thanks for sharing your story, and glad you made it out of this hairy situation safely.
I am diving a KISS Sidewinder, which has identical scrubber / ADV units to your Spirit. From personal experience I think you might want to consider re-adding the shut off to the hose supplying the ADV (but NOT to the one supplying the BOV!): The design of the ADV on this unit makes it quite sensitive to pressure difference and water movement, so that it is easy to get it to trigger and add unwanted Dil to the loop when going head down or sideways. If this happens while you are going head down through an opening it can quickly lead to a runaway buoyancy event at a time when this is most unwelcome. Since you are already using the BOV to add Dil you will probably find that the ADV can stay shut off for most of your dive anyway.
Also, hope to dive with you on the Mikhail Lermontov wreck one day. 😀
Thanks for the advice Michael. I will take a look at that, however I think it might be a challenge to get a slider on the ADV line independent of the BOV the way the spirit comes. The whip from the offboard tank runs up to a Y manifold that’s between the scrubber and the backplate so well out of reach. It’s all doable, but would require a total hose RE-run.
So far I had not had an issue with the ADV firing when I didn’t want it to and I’ve been in all kinds of orientations on it. But will definitely be aware of that.
I have actually heard of a story where having the ADV switched off would have killed two divers due to an uncontrolled decent after a boatman had to ditch the anchor with a buoy (that was far to small for the current and weight of two CCR divers), while two divers decompressed in current in the Solomons because a third diver lost the anchor line and drifted off under an SMB. So everything’s a trade off I guess.
The spirit comes (or at least this older version) out the box without a shutoff at all so that’s what I have returned the unit to. I figure Mike Young knows best right!!
I’m actually off to the Lermy in November!
@@TURSTY09: Interesting that the ADV isn't as sensitive on the Spirit as it is on the Sidewinder - maybe because it is closer to the diver's center mass.
The Sidewinder does not come as a 'ready to dive' unit - you have to add your own components like the Dil regulator and quick disconnect, or even the harness / wing, so I would not expect this to come with a shut off supplied in the factory configuration.
In general, for most CCRs, the factory configuration they come in is often geared towards no-decompression open water diving (probably to keep the catalogue price at a bearable level), and you will often have to add extras like shut offs in order to make it possible to conduct more challenging diving with the level of fault tolerance that you are comfortable with. So I wouldn't take 'this is the way the unit comes in factory configuration' as 'this is the way that makes most sense for the diving that I am doing'. Rather play through all the 'what do I do if X happens' game for all the scenarios you can come up, and make sure that your configuration allows you to get outcomes that you can accept.
Of course, if you have an ADV shut off (or any other 'control element'), it has to be in a place where you can easily and quickly reach it in order to operate it, and you need to practice this skill to develop muscle memory for it. Still, if using your ADV is the only way to stop a runaway descent then I suspect that something else was wrong before this situation developed, like the diver being way too much negatively buoyant.
Nice, I'll be on the Lermontov in October as well!
@@mikeller_nz This CCR thing is interesting ay. I'll continue to play the "what if" game and I'm sure I'll land on a configuration I'm happy with one day =P.
That story I mentioned has a heck of a lot more to it. Hopefully I'll manage to get the person on Steve's channel one day soon to explain it himself. Its a doozy of a story!!
Interesting video and reflection. Glad you are in one piece Sam - that's really all that matters . It was a situation that shouldn't have manifested in the first place - but it did, so there we go. Ultimately a simple solution (easy for me to say, sat at my desk) - but seconds can count in these situations and the communication / fix are not always obvious in the stress of the moment. Well done for dealing with it - and talking about it from your perspective. Some lessons here, particulary as none of us are infallible.
Thanks Niall! I think the most experience I gained out of this is learning how you bodies fight or flight response can impact rational decision making. The second I went to draw a breath on my BOV and got nothing, my heart rate doubled, adrenaline dumped and my mind started priortising as it obviously believed it was in imminent danger.
I could have checked my bailout presure gauge and realised it wasnt empty (but that would have taken a few valuble seconds). I didn't forget my training and not go for my bailout reg, I activly made a decision not to (remember I was assuming it was empty at that point) because my buddy was at that time the path of least resistance to reliable gas to breath. When that didnt work, I still assumed my tank was empty, so the next best thing is the loop, which could get me to my buddy etc etc. The fix was indeed very simple, it was the urgency that made the most impact when it came to bad prioritisation of options to go for.
Then again, looking back, it was the wrong priority beceause the bailout tank wasn't empty. But what if it was? Then my response would have been the right one correct?
@@TURSTY09 I was giving this some more thought earlier - so I did a few burpees, took a deep breath and exhaled. I lasted 17 seconds under no mental stress. I keep myself fit and live at 7000ft so I was a little disappointed! It does help put the stress and the fight to remain rational into context. In that moment, would I have done anything different to you? Pushing hindsight bias aside, and with such limited breath time available, I am not convinced I would have. Your course of actions gave you time to deal with the bailout and therefore my view is (whilst high risk), you did the right thing. I am glad you discussed the communication issue with your buddy - so important. In the mid 90's when I was a resort instructor, I was a whisker from loosing a good friend on a wall dive due to a small amount of prior bad practice and subsequent confusion when he got into trouble. Somewhat tongue in cheek - my takeaway from your story is my continued begrudging acceptance, yet utter disdain for inline shutoff's...
Great quality video
I don’t know where to start. Glad he is okay.
A bov is a personal opinion to use, I never did on my JJ GUE setup,
Also I don’t like the fact you leave yr BO bottles staged outside the wreck.
They did handled it great.
Nice video 👍
Thanks for the compliment Steve!
I think I mentioned in the interview that the bottle left at the bottom of the down line was just a bit of extra insurance. We were carrying enough bailout to get both of us to the surface if we exited the wreck and went straight up an SMB (rather then swimming a decent distance at depth like we did). I agree that if possible, you should carry enough BO to get you to the surface.
@@TURSTY09 you handled this great, you did had a bo bottle with you and loved the extra staged bottle on the shot line. Shit happened and you and a lot of others learned from this. Nobody’s perfect 😉
Thnx for sharing this
Holy Cow! Cons of a shutoff valve in combination with BOV explained by real life ...
I would say experience level on ccr is low. Problem solving could’ve fixed this relatively easy. I accidentally unplugged my o2 once. Caught the po2 dropping to about 1.12. Hit manual and didn’t work. Checked valve and o2 pressure and it was still good. Knew it had to be unplugged, fixed then continued the dive. This could’ve been solved similarly.
He bailed out because he was dizzy, he did not want to get back on the loop as it was compromised potentially. Thanks for your comment!
@@divecurrent I’m not familiar with the kiss units, but I’m sure there is a method for them to conduct a diluent flush?
@@techdiverpratt5899 you most definitely can do a Dill flush but due to the in-line shutoff being bumped off, I couldn’t get any Dill into the loop. Sure, after I solved that problem I could have gone back on the loop, done a Dill flush and waited to see if that solved the problem. But CO2 issues can put you to sleep fairly quickly right so I didn’t really want to risk it. I had lost faith in the loop at that point (assuming CO2 breakthrough some how) so followed my training and bailed out.
What response were you taught out of curiosity for a dizzy experience on a CCR? Like I’ve said before, I’m keen to learn from this.
@@TURSTY09 I want to make it clear that I don’t think you did anything wrong. You made a decision, there was a plan in place, and you live to dive another day.
In my mod 1 I was essentially taught to also just BO. Any kind of issue, BO.
In mod 2 we were taught to work through the problems first. hypercapnia is typically a slow onset, usually with an increase in respiratory rate. Sanity breath, seeing if the symptom resolves itself. If it does I at least know the issue is in the rebreather, but if I was for say skip breathing or really choppy short breaths a dil flush could vent the loop of bad gas and allow me to get back on it.
Great video! Thank you for sharing Steve & Sam! Just wondering, the computer displayed on the bottom right of the video belongs to who? Sam or his buddy? Is it a back up computer? and why is it in OC even though the divers were still on the loop? Noticed this when I wanted to find out the PPO2 in the loop when Sam pumped the O2 to breathe.
Thank you! Looking forward to your new videos!
That is not the actual computer, it is computer generated. It’s not designed to work with close circuit repeater so you’ll notice it looks kinda funny.
Yeah as Steve said, it’s a skin on the video that I loaded the log data from my wrist mounted, hard wired computer into, but I couldn’t get it to read “CC” which is frustrating. All the other data is correct, but I did forget to switch my computer to OC until I was outside the wreck.
Awesome interview and post accident review.
However the burning question I have prior to reading any of the comments is what mitigation if any was done to the inline sliding gas switch that was fouled?
Does he still use them, did he change the style or modify the location? Does his online gas switch need to be rotated or unlocked by twisting before changing state in either direction on or off position?
We are happy for his safe return home but I really wish there was more conversation regarding the gas switch.
Sam job well done mate so glad your still with us!
Cheers, #SeattleRingHunter
@seattleRingHunter - it’s safe to say that slider went straight in the bin after a bit of a conversation around why it was even there in the first place. My unit was set up like that when I purchased it (second hand) and the logic for it was to do with Trimix deco dives and having a bit of extra insurance no helium would get sucked into the loop via the DSV during an O2 flush at 6m. I’m not Trimix certified so have no need for it. Plus I think there are other ways to achieve the same thing.
Great assessment and thanks for providing your thoughts on this.
Cheers, #SeattleRingHunter
11:35 But he has a stage bottle, so why is going to be close? TTS of just 10 minutes
Shutoff valve I think it's to close the intake of diluent, I don't see how would create a problem with CO2, just see a problem if you go deeper and the counter lungs get squeezed.
Ok, after I see the all clip I understand. You think there is a problem with the gas in the loop, you take all the gas out by sucking, and when you come back to the loop, because the shutoff valve is closed, you have nothing to breath. That going to full O2, JESUS!!!! You should have your bailout with you, just take the regulator and breath, you would have no problems!
I have some observations about the info presented and maybe an oversight in one aspect concerning the final backup bottle.
First, while this diver (Sam) ends up using 3 completely separate breathing apparatus (CCR, BO, and backup bottle), the computer display in this video never changes to reflect this. We only see "OC21/00 ..." which while technically does not make a difference to the outcome for this particular dive, but for the viewer, does not help track the diver's current air configuration mode. Should the diver not configure the computer for all 3 modes and switch among those so he has a reminder of which he is using, regardless of him having only regular air in each for this dive?
Next, the backup bottle that is retrieved during the exit/ascent phase... clearly has a NITROX yellow/green label on it, while Sam has confirmed during the review that all tanks including this backup are regular 21% air. No mention of this oversight?
I do not claim to be an expert, but when reviewing scenarios such as this I hope to learn from them rather than experience first hand. I would appreciate constructive feedback on my comments for clarification if I'm not quite understanding this case. Regards.
Hey @bryanboldt887 thanks for the comment, and yeah, I welcome constructive criticism.
That computer overaly is a skin in the editing software I use that is a bit buggy as I mentioned in a previous comment. The OC/CC label doesn't seem to change based on the loaded in data from my computer. I did somewhat forget to switch my computer to OC until I was outside the wreck, so it would have been a couple of minutes out on its deco calc, hence the conservitive ascent. But there definitely was CC21/00 and both BO and Stage OC21/00 gases loaded into both of my computers (Nerd2 and Petrol). I didnt switch the computer from the BO to Stage when I did that gas switch which wasn't best practice I know, but being that I knew they were both 21/00, it would have made no difference. Plus I only had 1 minute left under water at that point so I was ok missing that step.
Re the tank lable - Yes the tank is maked with a Nitrox band indicating that if could have any mix of Nitrox in it. The tank (like all our tanks) was analysed before the dive, and the actual mix recorded on a lable on the tank neck (at least thats what we usualy do.....hard to see if there is actually a lable there or not in the vid). Same goes for my bailout tank. Thats labled "Custom mix", so anytime anyone intends to breath from a tank with any of those lables on them, then they should check for a lable on the tank neck that indicates exactly whats in it. If you dont know whats in it - dont breath from it.
Hope that clarifys those questions?
Why does his Perdix on OC Tec? Not CC tec??
That is only a display added to the video editing software. It is not his Perdix that was just for an example.
@@divecurrent ahhh gotcha! Thanks!
@@ReverseCard Yeah the computer overlay on the video is a bit buggy and the OC/CC label doesn't seem to change based on the loaded in data. I did somewhat forget to switch my computer to OC until I was outside the wreck, so it would have been a couple of minutes out on its deco calc, hence the conservitive ascent.
Can you use a ffm on a rebreather
Sorry… what is an FFM?
@@divecurrent full face mask
@@adhamhwomble8345 one of many issues I would have with this.. If I had an issue and needed to bailout, how would I do this quickly? With my setup it would be almost impossible to do effectively as I have a DSV not a BOV.
I don't know I was asking just bought my rebreather so I'm learning lol
@@adhamhwomble8345 You can buy them, but I know someone that did a full face mask course on a CCR and nearly died, so gave that up as fast as possible. I personally believe the benefits of a FFM are outweighed by the risks. Remember, you can talk to eachother under water on a CCR without comms 😉
I’m really, really curious why there is an inline shut off on his BOV gas supply. That really doesn’t make sense to me at all.
I’m starting to wonder more and more at MOD1 we’re just taught to BO anytime there is a problem, instead of working through the problem like we’re taught in MOD2 and 3.
I know for the Choptima, we use the inline shutoff to maintain optima loop volume. It stops the ADV from firing. We slide it on when needed. Some have switched this to a manual add.
@@divecurrent I have an in-line shut off on my ADV as well, but not on my BOV.
Hey guys, it’s basically just due to the way the hoses are routed out of the box. There is one line that runs from the offboard dill/bailout to a Y manifold that’s located between the scrubbers and the backplate. One of the Y outlets goes straight to the ADV via a very short hose, and the other around to the BOV.
Like I said in another comment, it would be possible to reroute the whole thing, but they come without a shutoff so I have returned it to how Kiss designed it. I have heard of others having issues with the ADV firing in error when head down etc, but I am yet to run into that issue, but will definitely keep it in mind and be aware of that being a potential problem.
Interesting to hear that the “if in doubt, bail out” idea might change in later training. Does that still apply to CO2/dizziness issues?
@@TURSTY09 do you have a Facebook? May be easier to talk that way.
@@TURSTY09
Bail out first is always the way to go, even if only for a sanity breath or two. Especially if you're confused, dizzy or suspect CO2. No matter what MOD, 1,2 or 3, you can't go wrong by bailing out first once there's a problem.
Ploughing on with a possibly faulty rebreather could leave one dead without one even realising it.
Bail out, calm down, figure things out, fix the problem and go back on the loop. Continue dive. If problem cannot be fixed, stay bailed out and abort dive.
high ppo2in the loop caused the dizziness seems most likely. could be co2 but it seems too coincidental. thoughts?
The log off my computer says I was at an average of 1.1, and a max for a brief moment of 1.3, and I calibrated the computer at the last sorb change/checked cell voltage before this dive. So unless the cells were not telling the truth, I dont think a 1.1 would cause dizziness??
Did you ever figure out what caused the dizzy spell? Im very curious. I also thought that loop volume could play a small factor
@@GIJeffpauze no, unfortunately I never found any evidence of any cause. I’ve had a bunch of dives on the unit since, even using sorb from the same container, so I can only really put it down to either shallow breathing or just a random head rush for some reason. Weird huh.
HI, Have you had any dizziness since? I have around 250 dives on my unit. at least every 10 dives at around 15 minutes into the dive (similar time to you in the video) I feel dizzy / slightly sick. I have come to expect it and relax and breath through it and then will be fine for the rest of the dive. @@TURSTY09
Poor dive planning and gas management. Should be carrying enough gas to do his OC deco and so should his buddy.
Hey Matthew, we were carrying enough BO to get to the surface if we exited the wreck and went straight up. That staged bottle was nothing more then extra insurance. I actually only swapped to that bottle a minute before surfacing beceuase I was low on my BO bottle. I wasn't out of gas. Factor that was after a long swim at depth to collect that staged bottle (because it was there and why not have more then you need), and I also had my buddies full BO available if I needed it. I fail to see how thats poor dive planning or gas management?
You did a lot better on this video
He woukdve gone straight to the top if he was in trouble. You dont do deco stops if youre avout to die. Stop dramatising it. He was fine. His buddy woukdve also has spare air. If they was 250m down then yes but they wasnt. And he also had open curvuit reg? He was no way near death!
See the all postage. He thought the gas on the loop was bad, so he take all gas from the loop out. When he tried to breath again, because shutoff valve was closed, he got nothing to breath! So he flushed pure O2 to the loop at 30 m!!! This was really dangerous, but not because of CO2 or lack of gas.