Man Lu I was so hyped to see you post another D2 vid again. Your experience and nuance on the intricacies of the sandbox have been sorely missed. We need this game in the community. Not to mention your QP streams were some of the best places to chill. You should definitely consider playing again when checkmate is back around. 😅
@@solo_va5492 Was the shell of its former self even all that great anyway? It never really felt like it was, but I suppose I'm just being a Negative Nancy!
This video is very well-thought-out. The radar is definitely a huge issue, and I enjoyed how you expressed the player knowledge problem. The players are like 3 metas ahead of the devs and it wont matter what they do...
Gotta agree on the early D2 PvP experience. Whenever I would get killed it would give me this feeling of 'damn, if I could aim better I'd perform better' which gave a serious reason to improve my skills and keep playing. Now everything just feels so powercrept, abilities and weapons alike. Love your vids and streams, I do hope to catch you more often as streams are just super chill
Near the end of the video, your sentiment of not being complacent and wishing for a better future in Destiny certainly resonated with me in terms of opposing my feelings regarding the game. I've always been of the opinion that the game doesn't have much in the way of a brighter future, especially once Beyond Light hit. Truthfully, there's so many issues with this game, even at its core, that I've thrown any hope of it improving by the wayside.. but things really could be so much better, and deep down I wish for things to get there. Thanks for always sharing your thoughts, analysis, and critiques--this kind of discussion is paramount to steering this mess of a game in any positive direction.
The things you said about radar slowing down gameplay are certainly true and IMO that's amplified in checkmate, especially now that it is no longer cbmm but sbmm. No one pushes anyone. Everyone sits back and lanes. You get curious and peek a corner, you get gunned down by at least three players hugging it out in a rift. It's like pretending to play 18th century war with firing lines always keeping their innitial distance. Just extremely boring to play imo and that's why I don't see this modifier as the saviour of pvp, especially since it also tends to snowball once one team begins getting special ammo transmats (for sitting in the back so they can now sit in the back more efficiently with a sniper to get even more ammo transmat). IMO what made sure the game has been solved is sbmm though. It's no fun to always play your exact twin, to always encounter the same players until you know their every move, to always have to run hard meta if you don't want to spend most of the game in the respawn screen. Variety is the spice of life... and the fun in gaming. Sbmm kills that variety. Max Hoberman, the creator of the Halo ranked mm system, knew that and acted accordingly. (He recently made some very interesting posts concerning sbmm in modern games on twitter.)
I think even if sbmm wasn't cranked through the roof players still woulda cracked the code. There is so many guides and endless hours of high level pvp footage out there now that it would have been inevitable. Sure sbmm did speed that up and it killed match variety for sure, but I would argue the code already cracked years before sbmm
Imo I did enjoy checkmate pvp, with only one serious pain point… 1) instead of current special ammo method, I feel it would be better if per every zone cap, 2 kills(not assists) you get one special ammo for shotty sniper… 4 for forerunner you get the picture and on death you start again with no ammo. On capping all points you get 2 special ammo shots. Pushing players to not only cap zones, but also to play their lives…. Instead of the instant run at you because I don’t lose shotty ammo when I die and they trade with you that happens in current checkmate. I prefer my enemies to try and outplay or out think me. Would make it feel a tad more competitive. As in, hit your primary shots, rotate properly, know when the trade is worth losing your ammo… if you can stall three from capping a zone, costing you all your special ammo, but stopping 3 people from getting special until your team can catch up… that’s a good trade. Just think it would be a better system because you feel rewarded based on your own merit. Could potentially be a snowball method…. But special doesn’t solve everything… so I feel it could work
I agree about the primary game play, it’s one of the main reasons why I’ve been using Ace a lot more lately. I love hitting the 3 tap and getting rewarded with an explosion.
Loved the video as always and figured I would leave a comment to answer some questions. I've been playing Destiny since Rise of iron and D2 since the beta. I am a big fan of the original checkmate idea. Currently the special ammo bar is a really interesting way to obtain ammo especially because enemies dont drop their green if they have any. While the gamemode is a lot of fun heavy ammo spawns way to often (personally I dont think heavy should be in the gamemode at all) and special weapons are still extremely strong such as sniper and fusion rifles, otherwise it plays pretty interestingly with there still being an objective although its just another slayer variant. Although the current ability sandbox is horrible with strand and void titan being absolute must haves for higher level play it can still be a lot of fun while scrimming or playing the occasional faceit game. Your radar point was very interesting and not something ive heard talk of for a while. Radar in D2 is super strong and does provide a lot of free information, it would be interesting to have another gamemode without radar similar to momentum control although without the extremely fast ttk and fast ability regen. My only explanation for why removing or limiting radar would be a bad idea would be that it would make gameplay even more passive and force players to use mods such as radar booster or knucklehead just to gain a little more information than the opponent or something like gemini jesters to gain exact player locations. Destiny 2 still has a lot of potential but the current mess that is is in is just downright awful.
Frequent heavy ammo spawns have always been an issue in pvp, but heavy has to exist because there isn't a real objective to play for that incentivez players to engage with different areas of the map. I think the idea of radar comes from a good place, but it just plays so horribly and with special weapons being as strong as they are, the gameplay will slow down off of virtue of that anyways.
As a slayer gamemode brain myself, I personally hate zone trials. But when I play comp and see countdown, im instantly happy, because that gamemode is so fun
I didn’t necessarily hate year 1 of d2 pvp. I thought it was different in terms of the double primary. I liked the additions of new weapon types, but I believe in the higher end, it eventually became just rotating together as a group and teamshotting. It just wasn’t what made destiny fun for me, so that why I didn’t enjoy it. I think something like forsaken era with movement added and specials being back made the game a lot more fun.
Fair. I remember Tocom stated in a bungie interview that Destiny 2 year 1 was a good game with the wrong name attached to it. Now I'm imagining an alternate timeline where that game was not under the destiny name and it flourished.
All things considered, it would be best thing bungie could do if some people don't like Destiny 3, Destiny 2 will still be there just like D1 was when D2 at launch sucked ass.
Gotta say when I saw that you uploaded I got so hyped and you delivered another well thought out banger as per usual. You made me realize the truth about why I disliked D2Y1. I was a pretty mediocre player at the time so deathballing was always a problem for me. Looking back I'd be honestly pretty willing to try it out again even tho I didn't like how long the ttks were. Also I don't think you'd enjoy countdown rush. They did what they usually do and made an obj mode essentially slayer which gives the attackers a huge advantage. Outside of that, I think you'd like checkmate. Super heavy focus on primary gun fights and the limited special keeps people from crutching a shotgun or sniper.
The no radar was only in season 3, Warmind, which itself was plagued with Wormhusk, on demand free health regen. But it was the only time I felt actual accomplishment and risk when playing pvp, comp specifically. Going for, and claiming, Redrix's Claymore, was probably the most rewarding thing I've ever done in Destiny as a whole. Even moreso than Not Forgotten in Forsaken or any day 1 raid emblem I have. During that no radar, double primary, 4v4 comp sandbox there were of course win streaks, there were also loss steaks, extremely unforgiving ones. That added actual risk to re-queing if you and the boys were having an off night, or were tilted from the quad wormhusk, quad Gravaton/Antiope team you just lost to in sudden death the previous game. I can actually still remember specific games from that climb, and specific plays and even conversations I had with my teammates during those games, something I can't say for any other matches I've played in Destiny. Not only were the games in the upper ranks some of the most strategic I've ever had in the franchise(and nerve-racking) there was a real reward I was chasing when all was said and done. Something Bungie wasn't just gifting to the rest of the playerbase(something they immediately went back on in Forsaken and gave Broadsword, a better Claymore, to everyone) that was actually unique and powerful yet not absolutely broken like NF was on release. Claymore rewarded skilful aim. Too bad the rest of the game was an absolute bore. Double primary fixed rolls does NOT work for pve whatsoever, and neither does not having a Redrix equivalent for pve. Also Prestige raid lairs were ass lol. And the playerbase as a whole didn't like y1 pvp(hell less than 1% of ppl got Redrix and probably because less than 10% even tried) and Bungie has to have those more casual players to keep a game like Destiny going, and they like their cheesy 1 shot weapons and space magic. Cammycakes has made videos on this subject saying he loved Y1D2 but understood it was bad for the game as a whole and had to change otherwise the game would have died. Oh well, at least I have the emblem I can use from that time(when I can force myself to take my Bungie Bounty emblem I tried for 4 years to get off) obtained from hitting fabled, I wish legend would have given one as well and not just a Redrix ornament, which was cool at the time but is inconsequential now with the sunsetting of weapons, something an emblem doesn't have to worry about.
Yeah I still remember how brutal warmind comp was. If you wanted to climb at a reasonable rate (still super slow at the time)you had to go on 5 streak and if you lost you had to win like 3 games to make up for that L. Even if the player count was high, I would imagine it would be the same case of less than %1 of the population getting 5500. If you weren't an exceptional player with people to grind it out with, that goal of 5500 was unrealistic. With my sbmm at the time all I matched were sweats or pvp streamers like pure,zk or OneSecondKill. There were no bad players in my bracket so I had stay locked in
@@2011manchu if I remember correctly it was something like only 8k ppl got Redrix's, so the amount that got the skin was probably around 1k, across all platforms. And you're right, same ppl game after game, back when ZK and OSK still played on PS. As much as I appreciate the experience now it was extremely stressful at the time and it would be a mistake for them to go back to that. The Forsaken comp felt much better, it was still hard to hit legend and get NF, but it didn't require selling your soul lol.
I thoroughly enjoyed checkmate, with the exception of weapon outliers. For instance bows, smgs, etc. I know these are only outliers however with bungies previous track record I do t see any changes with if the next coming months.
I agree with 99% of your thoughts, but I feel in the competitive mode spawns need to competitive to the mode(not spawn Narnia/not spawning opposite from your team) with the newly added modes spawns haven’t been adjusted. But some things have higher priority than spawns.
I understand that sometimes people will get a BS spawn, but spawn logic generally works as intended, what happens is that the sporadic locations of players influences spawns greatly. In hindsight, the unlucky spawns might be BS, but if you actually analyze what happened in the moment, one could discern the cause of such spawns.
I didn't mind double primary, I agree that the radar should have a range nerf. I do like slayer modes only, control is okay, but with all the abilities and special weapons not mention mindless blueberries, obj modes like countdown are terrible for a solo like me.
25:22 100% agree. I'm finding satisfaction in shatterline. It's gotten a bit stale but at least the weapons are fairly balanced and it gives me passion to improve. thanks for the videos bro, you're inspiring a lot of ppl out here! 🙏
Missed the videos. Glad you’re back even if it’s just for one. I’m surprised to hear you like the objective based game modes. They sound like a good idea but actually promote most of what you’re complaining about. It’s run to a section of the map, sit behind a barricade, get free over shield, and use an ability or sniper to get a pick. Repeat. It also leans so heavily into the Titan, smg, and over shield meta that’s been going on way to long. I haven’t seen anyone enjoy countdown rush being added to comp this season and dominion trials is old for the same reason.
That stale gameplay you see in objective modes is more of the fault of the sandbox than it is the actual obj modes. I know this because this was not a common occurrence years ago in forsaken or warmind even against top teams. There is more flow to objective modes and there is actual thinking behind what to do and how to play it, this will not be case if you play solo or you still have slayer conditioning
I've heard these sorts of comments regarding other games and their metas, be it fighting games or chess. I don't know the first thing about Destiny, but this video seems so thoughtful and informed that I think I'll study it for game design in general.
I agree with a lot of what you’ve said. Although I do like special ammo, I understand why you’re not in love with it. I also seek meaningful knowledge skill gaps and gameplay. I was actually saddened by removal of 3v3 variant of rift from comp bc it, as you said, made people play the game differently vs pure slayer without thought. I feel in love with Destiny bc it was a thinking man’s game in addition to just twitch. It has definitely changed from this but I’ve yet to find another game to replace it to fill that void. I went flawless over the weekend and it was defensive super (🙄 bubbles + well) city but the uptake in time to reach the super this season made them less prevalent. Also, I think the super is the thing that makes Destiny unique and it shouldn’t never not be important in any game mode. I say this as someone who grunts loudly when I play zone trials and see defense titans so 🤷🏾♂️. Good video on the game I truly love like no other sans Halo.
I want to mention that's why players play destiny for different reasons, all I ask for is for bungie to meet in the middle with something that we can all tolerate in harmony. It's either one extreme (Year 1) or the other extreme (Forsaken up until now). Maybe the closest pvp had gotten to that was 30th anniversary, but I would say it's more just the novelty of the gameplay changing drastically than it was actually being really good.
The main reason I and other people who hate 3 player rift do so is mainly because of how if the enemies get too close it spawns you on the other side of the map witch just feels bad
@@Johnmaloney1962 Yeah it feels bad, but thats spawn logic working as intended, rift is a mode with big emphasis on life value, if your team gets wiped cleanly then you will be a disadvantage as punishment for getting wiped. The respawn timers used to be a lot longer and they shorted them in favor of the lesser skill players. Atleast if you got wiped quickly you still had a chance to stop the spark detonation if the enemy team was converting to your spawn fast enough.
Also, to answer your question about D2 Y1, I think most good players coming from D1 (remember No Land Beyond and sidearms being the main issue weapons at the time) just want cheese. Hell even I wasnt the biggest fan back then just because I sucked ass in PvP, however, now that I'm way better, I i wished I could have the same experience, so I could have the skill expression that I desire. Checkmate does this to a degree.
I completely agree with your viewpoint about D2 year 1. There were multiple awful metas with antiope/gravlance coming to mind and Wormhusk Invis hunters, where it wouldn't give you aimassist on console. However, once I came across Cammys channel and his PvP Commentaries I enjoyed the 4v4 back then way more than any Era of PvP after. Even Forsaken seemed awful to me, since on console you couldn't use anything besides Luna's Howl/NF/Last Word for its whole lifetime, until Joker's Wild when Recluse came out. There was way more variety in viable playstiles back in double primaries. The Ability/Exotic Powerlevel and uptime were the best in its history though imo, besides Outliers like Flawless Execution and OEM.
Also yeah…. Remove radar from checkmate… if they try it there to see how it works out, that’d be awesome. Momentum I think has it, but it’s the opposite of checkmate where some weapons are super tuned to fry people. Funny how many people I see who don’t use radar as it is though. Free info
happy to see another destiny video! it often times feels like destiny doesn't respect intelligence or effort on the part of the player: there's no cultivation of game sense with radar, no cultivation of actually thinking for a number of reasons. i'm happy to have an objective gamemode like countdown, but i can certainly see the frustration from the average player. the gulf in quality of gameplay between an organized team and an average solo q comp lobby is massive, and i can't fault people for being frustrated when 80% of players are playing countdown like it's clash. i think the endless issues of a huge number of sandbox pain points and bad maps will continue to cripple the crucible, even in the face of things like comp rework/checkmate. checkmate's a great first step, but i can still crutch builds like bowswap in comp or trials any day of the week. even though i was complete ass at the time, i honestly miss the trials of the nine era even tho i was much much worse at the time, and i think you're right about double primary and competitive integrity. hope to see more vids in my notifs soon :)
I get your point about snipes, but imo fusions are just as egregious when you can precharge around a corner upon seeing some red on your radar, which makes competitive settings feel slower and more boring because taking a risk may mean getting one shot. I feel like quickplay specifically was slower in year one, though, because I have vivid memories of teams just holding hands with graviton lance in the back of meltdown lol.
All specials are egregious in PvP..sniping across the map, aping, hiding with a shotty around the corner while hawking the radar, melting with fusions and trace rifles..slap some stasis or strand on that and yea..you get the picture.
Bungie should hire this guy. Seriously, you absolutely get what's going on. BTW, I have a question. You mentioned about some things under the hood that can actively play against you. Destiny is the only game that I feel there's a huge variability in my performance and I think there's something dynamic in the P2P connection architecture. Is there something baked in their system that gives an advantage to another player in some situations?
Can't disagree with anything you said. Completely agree about the radar and game sense, it's a real leveler without it and stops the sit back and wait mentality. I used to love crucible/PvP but it hurts my soul now.
Really interesting and insightful takes, you brought up, a lot of stuff I’ve never even thought about. Really interested in a no radar/reduced radar mode now. Especially if it added some checkmate elements. Gotta love when a video is so good you sit down and watch all 27 minutes without starting another task.
An issue with checkmate is handcannons still 3 tap while most other weapon types have had their ttk lengthened. And while Bungie lowered body shot damage of them to reward only crits, hitting 3 crits with a hc is something almost the entire pvp community can now do in their sleep. I love hcs, but I also like many other weapon types and using only hcs gets old fast for me. Also when a team gets special before the other, they can then use that special uncontested to get their next special drop and it snowballs to an unsurmountable deficit for the other team. Maybe Bungie changing it so special kills don't contribute to getting more could help. I don't envy the devs who are trying to balance pvp with how many weapons, exotics and abilities we now have because it seems near impossible at this point. I see no real way out but a fresh restart with D3, or I guess Marathon which is where most of the dedicated Destiny pvp team went. But extraction shooters aren't really my thing but we'll see how that plays out(it's releasing the year of GTA6 which means bad news for it, and anything else releasing that year imo).
Yeah this new pvp strike team has a big mountain to climb because they gotta somehow undo several years of damage to the pvp environment. I saw that they tried to make handcannons a 4 tap, but the HC enthusiasts weren't too happy with that. Like I mentioned it still looks like it needs hella work, but in an ideal circumstance where it's actually tuned properly, i don't see how this couldn't be normal crucible.
I actually think radar should be implemented in other games. I believe It speeds up gunplay along with adding a whole different skill gap. The other skill gap I am referring to is spacing. An smg or fusion player can space a shotgun player and win the fight through good use of the radar or vice versa. This is not to say you cannot space players without a radar but more so that the radar makes it less likely to die to a shotgun player holding a wall when you try to slide it for example. I look at it more so as a different form of game sense rather than free game sense. For me, spacing is the bread and butter of destiny gunplay.
Radar speeds up gunplay for those at a lower level than most, but in those high brackets, not so much. Sure there is the spacing element, but other games without free game sense of radar has spacing too. Look at Halo or valorant. It's about getting a good read on the situation and predicting what will likely happen next
D2Y1 is my favorite era of destiny period. At first I hated the pvp because of the handholdy deathballing gameplay, but I kept playing because I wanted to find a way to be better than those people. More than half my playtime in d2 to this day(I stopped playing during the last season of witch queen) was from Y1. being able to out think and out aim enemies without them just ending the gunfight with a cheesy ability or forcing the favor on themselves with overshields or knockout lunge was just so satisfying. I was ok in D1 but I really shined in D2 regardless of the skill gap. I genuinely miss Y1. A big issue with d2 as well is the radar having too much range and info. d1 was a game on a smaller scale so it makes sense that the radar had less range but d2 radar shouldnt have anywhere near as much range as it does.
Objectives gamemodes will never work in Destiny because the average player and even some above average players don't know how to play the objective. That is also compounded by defensive abilities like barricades and well/bubble.
Thats a playerbase problem more than it is an objective mode problem, some of these modes are generally well thought out, but players dont know how to play the objective because Bungie never made it an important skill to learn, just look at all the brainrot slayer modes or variations of slayer we have
I’m very curious how you feel about Halo. That was the game that changed my life and why I gave Destiny a chance. In short I initially felt that Destiny was Halo with supers. Ultimately, I still feel this way to an extent but D2 far differentiates itself from Halo. Vehicular fun aside, Halo exceeded Destiny in terms of meaningful ways to win/become a good player through various actions such as controlling spawns, map control, understanding of gameplay. CTF in Halo is so dynamic in general that nothing in D2 is like this game mode. However, I think in moment to moment combat, I feel D2 surpasses Halo bc of D2 unique meta game of ability, exotic, subclass management with counters. For examples to win in D2 I need knowledge of opposing teams subclasses, exotics, legendary items + unique perks, plus map knowledge, etc. this meta game of knowledge management + skills + situational awareness, all the things you mentioned in your video have me hooked on the game still. Halo seems closer to what you believe D2 should be, at least in theory anyway. Also, I didn’t discover you until late. I learned of Tony and you through him. It seems you two see the only content creators who are articulating on PvP in the way I would, so I say thanks for y’all doing that.
I liked Halo infinite, but I wanted to play MnK and that was unrealistic with how much controller invalidated MnK. It's shame because it generally is what I would look for in a arcade shooter, but the bag was tossed super early on with soured my outlook on halo. It was my first Halo too
I dont even start Trials anymore. We get Steamrolled so hard. I didnt even bother with getting better. I liked Destiny 2 Vanilla PVP on release more then the PVP now. Checkmate seems to be going there again. But dunno.
Year 1 definitely was boring for me and it was partially because I was getting destroyed by the slow pace of the game. I was nowhere near as good at the game as I am now
Lunar I was literally just thinking about you the other day like damn I miss listening to your takes. But god this game is going down man. I played ib and it’s just team shooting wells and bubbles with crazy passive play, then I tried clash to get something more upbeat but it was the same thing, just no crests to pick up. The game is based on who has the most cheese/meta load out or who just has the more unlucky matchmaking which isn’t fun for anyone at all
Too much heavy ammo in comp countdown rush, too many lines in survival… yet again, survival needs to be dropped back to 4 revives. And also why not cap lives in count down rush to 4 as well?
Honestly think that if d2 year one was JUST in crucible with slightly faster ttks, it would have been a good pvp experience. Only reason I didn't play was because titanfall 2 existed and if there were special weapons in pve it would have been so much better.
I don’t think players hate objective based modes. It’s more so how bungie treat those modes and how they poorly implement those in the likes of comp that made those unfun. Partially the map selection is at fault but it’s clear they use the slayer modes notions and shove it in obj modes
I dunno. I think people hate obj modes because they aren't even given a chance to go from poor iteration to gradually seeing the process of it becoming better through feedback and playtime. Instead of the former, players would rather just do away with it altogether in favor slayer brainrot
@@2011manchu Maybe I’m still somewhat optimistic but I do believe with a new map or two and pushing more objective base modes would definitely benefit to changing the minds of players instead of shoving some made up domination iterations and call it new
@@NemNamz New maps in an awful sandbox is like buying furniture in a house with a hole in the roof and mold everywhere. Like at best, it's a brief moment of novelty before you realize it won't change the game in meaningful way. And they need to hire actual map designers to make good maps and not outsourcing it to artists because while the visual flair is cool, every new map the has got, has only played horribly. They need to be designed with symmetry and flow first. Not environment first.
Lol always had fun playing against you in those early days. Great insight & perspective on the state of crucible which is why i stopped playing around Beyond Light.
antiope the goat. I didnt see a problem with vanilla d2, i liked combining smgs with pulses/scouts back then on titan. ive played the same way just more refined now since then. might be boring to some people but playing that way is the way i enjoy the game. the fun weapons i use are dual cascade point smgs on PK. fun mini game. checkmate is on the right path, it just throws me off because ive gotten used to certain weapon ttks, i think i would actually like primary damage the same as core and special weapon damage tuned down maybe. the ability nerf in there is amazing, but for special weapons it begins to get out of hand at the middle to the end of the match.
So there is a "Special O Clock" in checkmate it seems. Like I said, I find reward in using primaries so by virtue of that, I naturally have a bias towards year 1 but it was far from perfect.
antiope is my weapon i stg, it still is so powerful in 6's, i have 25,000 on one of them and 5k on another, slowly building up the new one to 50k. gun never ever gets old.
Just saw this video, glad to see you back making content. I do disagree with your statement that HoW/TTK/Forsaken would be unplayable, but I don't have the time to go deeper into it atm. Hope you make more videos PS. idk if you remember me but we played in the past.
I remember you and I still stand on my opinion. Those times periods were playable only because everyone was bad and lacked hella knowledge. Put current day player skill in those sandboxes and it would play out so horribly. If you want an example of how bad the game can get just watch Calico's no rule tournament
@2011manchu Glad to see you're still responding to older comments. I'll leave my full response later, but one thing I'll bring up is for example, primary vs. special balance. IIRC, you didn't play d1y1. Specials were absolutely wild back then, + you geniunely had infinite ammo. And yet, primary weapons dominated the kill chart. Even auto rifles, which were pretty horrible, had more kill than specials. The reasoning IMO is the sandbox: radar didnt have the same range as D2, we moved slower and you couldnt hide behind abilities (barricade, Overshields, etc) and weaker perks (no opening shot on snipers, for example) to cheese OHKs. I'll collect my thoughts better in the future. Till then, Godspeed.
Calio's tournament was funny to watchcbut yes, its bad because D2 sandbox is bad. A lot of old d1 players hated class abilities as a concept, but as annoying as it was its nothing compared to now. Barricades had much longer cooldowns + werent tied to resilience nor granted you buffs suspend, woven mail armor or overshield. Personally, d2 pvp went downhill starting with Shadowkeep. Introduction of artifact affecting PvP + stronger abilities and gradually reducing cooldowns. And even then its a slope. Like the OHK knife was cool and takes more skill than freezinf someone but its still not something i wanted to see back in season of dawn (December 2019), yet Bungie continued to add more and more dumbshit to Destiny. I still play the game, usually rumble, and its boring. I either get noobs to stomp or i get titans using cronus spamming barricades the moment they're shot at.
And one more thing: A lot of people played sweats. Even if pubs were insufferable in old sandboxes, i enjoyed playing against simklar skilled opponents in that sandbox. I enjoyed two tap tlw and blink quickdraw, or not forgotten dust rock blues + ace of spades beloved.
To your point at the end; I think Destiny will (and should) "always be Destiny" but I think they can do a lot of things to improve the PvP experience that will make it more fun/rewarding/skillful while still keeping the Destiny feeling. Appreciate your thoughts on the game as always man, hope you're doing well.
i feel like the new checkmate mode is a good change. gives me some hope for the game. i would love to see a version w no radar at least in trials and comp
Joe saying there are plans to move over successful elements to primary crucible is the worst news I've heard from the studio this year. The only thing I can get behind (with some tweaks) is how it handles special ammo. Otherwise it's the most dreadful experience in the game for me. I'd rather relic and mayhem be the mainstay modes that they attempt to balance rather than checkmate.
@@Zevox144 i think we just enjoy different things about the crucible. I feel like it should be more about gunplay. I like checkmate because your abilities are still very powerful but you cant spam them as much so you have to be good with your primary.
Damn the talk about radar is something no pvp content creators actually try to talk about (at least not recently) and tweaks to it would change so much and is one of the key pieces checkmate needs and why it feels so bad (mostly in 6s) to play, as always love the Destiny pvp talk its always interesting to hear especially as D2 heads into its final stage and looking back on the game on the good times as well as what could have happened is more enjoyable then actually playing it
Damn, being 4th most reported player, for a year? That's insane. I wonder how many Bungie devs/staff have came into your stream, assuming that you're cheating, and then just be corrected by what they're watching and hearing. And, if things do actually get better, I may get back in myself. You're probably one of the most chill streamers, let alone, FPS player Ive met, aside Wormy and Gleaux.
Only several including Tocom used to frequent my stream, the others went by very odd aliases that I don't even remember unless I really dig through the logs. Appreciate your kindness.
@@2011manchu I played Checkmate with Wormy a bit when it was released, I liked it, but everyone noticed how uniquely strong Hand Cannons were in the gamemode. You basically never found a lobby without like at least 6 of them.
@@leafyisnthere9396 yeah I heard that was the main complaint of the mode, if handcannons is the main thing of concern then I'd for Bungie's standards the mode has a really good foundation, but I would rather wait and played a refined version of checkmate instead of the prototype version because if the modifier goes away, I defo wouldn't be interested in playing the vanilla game and that abomination of a sandbox
@@2011manchu Yeah the base sandbox is a nightmare ive been hearing from friends and checking into Wormy's stream from time to time. Looks like its so unfun that Wormy and everyone he games with have all moved onto MWIII.
Oh, and about the radar mechanics. Theres a F2P game Ive played off and on for years and it has a wonderful radar, you're only on the radar for moments(theres a different duration for every type of weapon) after shooting, or if youre like right on top of a player.
not gonna lie, in a comp setting, i got pssy pounded in year one, ut i loved using graviton (before it ever got buffed) to try to get as many multi kills and we rans if they happen, i just love sniping, so i hated the power ammo system, but yes i can see your points quite vividly
Rewarding gameplay for me is no ability just gun play cause that abilitystuff is cheese and not only it’s cheese imagine going against a cheater using consistent ability uptime or better yet a player that just sits back and wait for their ability to come up to mess your streak up like bro bungie need to just make a game mode where you just use guns
honestly think that checkmate being the core mode is the best thing that bungo has done for pvp in a long time, my only problem is that without special crutching some people have turned to very cheesy strats, this is expected but god is it annoying
Yeah, the reason I mentioned that you can't really find an improvement based environment in regular pvp is because there are too many outliers. It's why comp rework didn't do anything lol. Bungie is too afraid to ban or restrict stuff
5:59 you literally just described my entire youtube channel lmao. that hit of dopamine from a seventh column is on par with a heavy dose of morphine. the stealth nerfs to golden gun have killed any motivation to play, especially when people bombard my videos with hate comments. Also, the way you speak is incredibly articulate and astute, and you seem to have spent a lot of time preparing what you want to say, especially when your sentences flow so coherently. 22:01 As a momentum control player I think radar should be removed. Destiny spawns and player locations are so predictable that 80% of the time I can confidentially pre aim someone behind a wall. You build enough game sense to have wall hacks built into your brain. Momentum control forces you to learn every possible spawn point, every possible angle of attack, and ALSO allows you to take advantage of cool things like throwing a stasis grenade up high and using it as a height advantage or hiding inside of a Salvations Grip crystal and watching people run by. 23:25 respectfully I think the brain rot comes from playing the competitive modes and using the same weapon setup and fighting the same loadouts match after match after match after match. In momentum you can use ANY gun you want and be competitive. You have to earn your abilities, they do not recharge unless you get kills or capture zones. The fact that I can use a standing tall ( a green 340 pulse) or home again (a green auto rifle) and be competitive against any other gun really brings out the fun side of destiny.
This video would be a lot better if you had actually played checkmate, people actually enjoyed the lower ability spam and focus on primaries. The issue was the imbalanced weapon sandbox it presented because of the ttk changes, the meta was figured out to be hand cannons immediately
The video and my opinion on checkmate would have likely been the same. Just like my opinion on sbmm. "How can you comment on it if you haven't tried it?" I don't need to eat shit to know it tastes bad.
@@2011manchu in the video though you point out some pain points like a lack of primary gunplay, to me it sounds like you are prime candidate for checkmate. So it’s just interesting that you made this video but won’t try it. To me that’s the major issue with destiny, is even if something comes out that competitive inclined players would enjoy, Destiny is at the point that they won’t even give it a shot.
@@jake93 It's more so the fact that it isn't a permanent thing. Why get attached to a modifier that isn't there long term. If it goes away that means that if I wanna play pvp, I gotta play the vanilla game and that horrid sandbox. So I will just spare myself the annoyance
@@2011manchu I think it’s supposed to be permanent for now, they said it’ll be checkmate control for 5 weeks then go into labs, not sure if that’s rotating though. Then checkmate trials is coming at some point this season, we had checkmate comp at one point. It’s almost always available currently. They did do a round of ability nerfs but they are still pretty potent in vanilla
Honestly at this point I would just be content with removal dominion in trials, pure solo queue for all the mods and no SBMM. Really dont care about anything else at this point
as for radar? imagine if you had to pull up the radar in its own animation in order to get information, or in a funny idea, if it was audio only radar, soft bleeps that increase in pitch kind of like in the iconic alien movies, lol but you have to know where they are coming from via game sense
Imo I think the biggest reason why checkmate won't become the pvp default is because 1) For a lot people skill expression = extraordinary performance (high kills, high KD) with moderate or low effort 2) better players are able to figure out minor advantages and smaller details much faster than worse players. This gives them an overall leg up on others and allows them to adapt to new environment faster Overall, good players step in and dominate essentially immediately and don't have to practice forever to do so. As you go down the skill ladder, players struggle more and for longer despite doing their best and that resentment and envy suppresses their desire to enter a new environment, essentially because it means that they won't "feel as good" as they normally get to in normal pvp, even if normal pvp is objectively less balanced.
That's a fair point that I didn't consider for sure. Base crucible just allowe for a string of kills really quickly, but in checkmate things do look a lot slower for reasons you outlined.
I really like that they recently added a no abilities mode. I love the thought of hunters struggling without their dodge spam. I agreed with everything except your view that being aggressive in this game is a disadvantage. That's not 100% true. There're plenty of players and teams that are insanely aggressive and incredibly successful at it.
THERE IS NOTHING ELSE TO PLAY no game comes close to the feel and power fantasy that Destiny has. No game can scratch that movement itch for me. And that feeling you get when you finally get the weapon roll you’ve been chasing for hours or days, it’s literally a high. Destiny is special but it’s being ruined by greedy out of touch suits. GTA 6 can’t come soon enough
I wrote two seperate comments, went to edit them and they both got deleted, this is annoying. I'll summarize them, year 1 was too slow (movement sliders too), lanes were too heavily camped, and it was too stale without special. I compared it to Halo 3's MLG playlist, but no weapons on the map, or power-ups. It would get boring. Cool to see you upload, I still recommend your "controlled aggression" video to people who ask how to get better. I'm not editing shit in this message, so it stays.
I'm sorry that youtube is on the nonsense lol, but yeah year 1 being boring and slow and stale is a valid critique, but I felt like more of not understanding the gameplay than it was boring, but its easier to say boring. I think this insane amount of powercreep and these ridiculous builds and weapons are what makes the game stale to me. If people enjoy that, fine but I'm not gonna play the game. And appreciate you sending people over my way even though I don't play anymore 🤝
@2011manchu yea, I definitely see how it would be less fun at your level, and the methodical team nuances are more your style. I did play Year 1 Trials of the Nine, I went 47-1 with a 2.28 k/d (IGN - Strategicat, Xbox.) For me, it was just too little of reward back then, now it's too cheesy lol. I will say though, point trials is bad and countdown was way more intense.
These are excellent points. Though, I would argue that the top 10% of pvp players in this game probably don't affect Bungie's bottom line. Which is why pvp is no longer part of the monetization for D2. Without money to be made, there's no reason for massive overhauls, like what you suggest. About that very last bit... Not the "Destiny will continue being Destiny" part specifically, but rather your reason for dismissing it out of hand. This is very much a strawman argument. You want the game to be a certain way, but the game has always been this way. To say that it will "continue to bleed players" because "destiny will continue being destiny", doesn't actually have anything to do with what you talk about for 90% of the video. Bleeding players is something that happens every year in D2. Getting them back is also something that happens every year in D2. What makes it different this time, isn't the fact that PVP has been neglected (like it has been for years, point of fact) or even that there's a stale seasonal content model (which there absolutely is), it's about changes that were made in the name of quality of life improvements. The game fundamentally changed when they removed pinnacle pursuits. The game fundamentally changed when they removed leveling. The game fundamentally changed when they added crafting. Players have nothing to pursue. They have no to height to reach. The game has changed to maximize returns for lower engagement. Yes, there was a problem with FOMO, but the way they chose to handle that was to gut the core experience. You can't call your game an MMO or MMO-lite, then take out the elements that make it an MMO. Destiny will, in fact, continue being Destiny. Because every aspect of the game, whether it's PVP or PVE, will continue to be dumbed down so that anyone off the street can come in and get everything they want. That's the way it's always been with this game, from this developer. But hey, they still have the best feeling shooting mechanics in he history of video gaming...
I respect your opinion, but only time will tell if my argument of the mediocrity is a strawman. The infinite money glitch seems to be no more so we will see what comes of it
Thst radar talk was interesting but we are so far away from reaching that point. Bungie would have to properly balance their game in order to even reach that point. From broken abilities likes decoys and the ark warlock melee which by the way they still havent balanced properly have 3 times 😂. Weapon outliers would be target lock smgs and high impact pulses still. Before they can get to the nitty gritty. They must first address all the bullshit first wich they have failed to fo so over years now. (By the way checkmate does fix alot of these for example high impact pulses cant 2 burst and less ability spam. However, that is still not enough for the game to be playable at your standards.)
i didnt enjoy deathballing teams idk what he's talking about. That shit was boring af nothing to accomplish other than getting hate mail for being too good.
I'd say the biggest problem that Destiny has for pvp is the playerbase. Over 80% are the space magic 1 hitter quitters whom main special and cheesy shit and the other 20% who value gunplay and awareness over cheesy bullshit. If Bungie moves to support that 20%, the other 80% bitch and moan and then they leave. When the 80% leave, the 20% don't like sweating their ass off every game since they've constantly fighting the same teams over and over again because of the SBMM and such. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Destiny's pvp is overly casual and it seems like even when players get what they want, they don't like it and tell bungie to turn it back. 🤷
Destiny is not destiny unless there’s 1HK special weapons in PvP. Yes it can be obnoxious, but it’s not boring. Team shooting is both boring and obnoxious. The best middle ground is only getting special from ammo spawners around the map like in D1.
Man Lu I was so hyped to see you post another D2 vid again. Your experience and nuance on the intricacies of the sandbox have been sorely missed. We need this game in the community. Not to mention your QP streams were some of the best places to chill.
You should definitely consider playing again when checkmate is back around. 😅
Appreciate it cuzza, but I'm having a hard time convincing myself to even reinstall the game lmao
@@2011manchu lmfao same this game is a shell of its former self
@@solo_va5492 Was the shell of its former self even all that great anyway? It never really felt like it was, but I suppose I'm just being a Negative Nancy!
@@doyoufeelathomehereseason of opulence and black armory ❤ easily some of the most fun I've had playing a game I deadass have nostalgia for it
This video is very well-thought-out. The radar is definitely a huge issue, and I enjoyed how you expressed the player knowledge problem. The players are like 3 metas ahead of the devs and it wont matter what they do...
Gotta agree on the early D2 PvP experience. Whenever I would get killed it would give me this feeling of 'damn, if I could aim better I'd perform better' which gave a serious reason to improve my skills and keep playing. Now everything just feels so powercrept, abilities and weapons alike.
Love your vids and streams, I do hope to catch you more often as streams are just super chill
Babe wake up, new lunarz just dropped
Near the end of the video, your sentiment of not being complacent and wishing for a better future in Destiny certainly resonated with me in terms of opposing my feelings regarding the game. I've always been of the opinion that the game doesn't have much in the way of a brighter future, especially once Beyond Light hit. Truthfully, there's so many issues with this game, even at its core, that I've thrown any hope of it improving by the wayside.. but things really could be so much better, and deep down I wish for things to get there. Thanks for always sharing your thoughts, analysis, and critiques--this kind of discussion is paramount to steering this mess of a game in any positive direction.
The things you said about radar slowing down gameplay are certainly true and IMO that's amplified in checkmate, especially now that it is no longer cbmm but sbmm.
No one pushes anyone. Everyone sits back and lanes. You get curious and peek a corner, you get gunned down by at least three players hugging it out in a rift.
It's like pretending to play 18th century war with firing lines always keeping their innitial distance. Just extremely boring to play imo and that's why I don't see this modifier as the saviour of pvp, especially since it also tends to snowball once one team begins getting special ammo transmats (for sitting in the back so they can now sit in the back more efficiently with a sniper to get even more ammo transmat).
IMO what made sure the game has been solved is sbmm though. It's no fun to always play your exact twin, to always encounter the same players until you know their every move, to always have to run hard meta if you don't want to spend most of the game in the respawn screen. Variety is the spice of life... and the fun in gaming. Sbmm kills that variety.
Max Hoberman, the creator of the Halo ranked mm system, knew that and acted accordingly. (He recently made some very interesting posts concerning sbmm in modern games on twitter.)
I think even if sbmm wasn't cranked through the roof players still woulda cracked the code. There is so many guides and endless hours of high level pvp footage out there now that it would have been inevitable. Sure sbmm did speed that up and it killed match variety for sure, but I would argue the code already cracked years before sbmm
Man, oh man, how I missed your vids. Gameplay and commentary are always a pleasure to watch.
Appreciate it o7
Imo I did enjoy checkmate pvp, with only one serious pain point…
1) instead of current special ammo method, I feel it would be better if per every zone cap, 2 kills(not assists) you get one special ammo for shotty sniper… 4 for forerunner you get the picture and on death you start again with no ammo. On capping all points you get 2 special ammo shots. Pushing players to not only cap zones, but also to play their lives…. Instead of the instant run at you because I don’t lose shotty ammo when I die and they trade with you that happens in current checkmate. I prefer my enemies to try and outplay or out think me. Would make it feel a tad more competitive. As in, hit your primary shots, rotate properly, know when the trade is worth losing your ammo… if you can stall three from capping a zone, costing you all your special ammo, but stopping 3 people from getting special until your team can catch up… that’s a good trade.
Just think it would be a better system because you feel rewarded based on your own merit. Could potentially be a snowball method…. But special doesn’t solve everything… so I feel it could work
I agree about the primary game play, it’s one of the main reasons why I’ve been using Ace a lot more lately. I love hitting the 3 tap and getting rewarded with an explosion.
Loved the video as always and figured I would leave a comment to answer some questions. I've been playing Destiny since Rise of iron and D2 since the beta. I am a big fan of the original checkmate idea. Currently the special ammo bar is a really interesting way to obtain ammo especially because enemies dont drop their green if they have any. While the gamemode is a lot of fun heavy ammo spawns way to often (personally I dont think heavy should be in the gamemode at all) and special weapons are still extremely strong such as sniper and fusion rifles, otherwise it plays pretty interestingly with there still being an objective although its just another slayer variant. Although the current ability sandbox is horrible with strand and void titan being absolute must haves for higher level play it can still be a lot of fun while scrimming or playing the occasional faceit game. Your radar point was very interesting and not something ive heard talk of for a while. Radar in D2 is super strong and does provide a lot of free information, it would be interesting to have another gamemode without radar similar to momentum control although without the extremely fast ttk and fast ability regen. My only explanation for why removing or limiting radar would be a bad idea would be that it would make gameplay even more passive and force players to use mods such as radar booster or knucklehead just to gain a little more information than the opponent or something like gemini jesters to gain exact player locations. Destiny 2 still has a lot of potential but the current mess that is is in is just downright awful.
Frequent heavy ammo spawns have always been an issue in pvp, but heavy has to exist because there isn't a real objective to play for that incentivez players to engage with different areas of the map. I think the idea of radar comes from a good place, but it just plays so horribly and with special weapons being as strong as they are, the gameplay will slow down off of virtue of that anyways.
Momentum control mentioned (hi norf)
As a slayer gamemode brain myself, I personally hate zone trials. But when I play comp and see countdown, im instantly happy, because that gamemode is so fun
I didn’t necessarily hate year 1 of d2 pvp. I thought it was different in terms of the double primary. I liked the additions of new weapon types, but I believe in the higher end, it eventually became just rotating together as a group and teamshotting. It just wasn’t what made destiny fun for me, so that why I didn’t enjoy it. I think something like forsaken era with movement added and specials being back made the game a lot more fun.
Fair. I remember Tocom stated in a bungie interview that Destiny 2 year 1 was a good game with the wrong name attached to it. Now I'm imagining an alternate timeline where that game was not under the destiny name and it flourished.
people dont want to admit it but a Destiny 3 is the only real way to save this franchise
All things considered, it would be best thing bungie could do if some people don't like Destiny 3, Destiny 2 will still be there just like D1 was when D2 at launch sucked ass.
Gotta say when I saw that you uploaded I got so hyped and you delivered another well thought out banger as per usual.
You made me realize the truth about why I disliked D2Y1. I was a pretty mediocre player at the time so deathballing was always a problem for me. Looking back I'd be honestly pretty willing to try it out again even tho I didn't like how long the ttks were. Also I don't think you'd enjoy countdown rush. They did what they usually do and made an obj mode essentially slayer which gives the attackers a huge advantage.
Outside of that, I think you'd like checkmate. Super heavy focus on primary gun fights and the limited special keeps people from crutching a shotgun or sniper.
The no radar was only in season 3, Warmind, which itself was plagued with Wormhusk, on demand free health regen. But it was the only time I felt actual accomplishment and risk when playing pvp, comp specifically. Going for, and claiming, Redrix's Claymore, was probably the most rewarding thing I've ever done in Destiny as a whole. Even moreso than Not Forgotten in Forsaken or any day 1 raid emblem I have. During that no radar, double primary, 4v4 comp sandbox there were of course win streaks, there were also loss steaks, extremely unforgiving ones. That added actual risk to re-queing if you and the boys were having an off night, or were tilted from the quad wormhusk, quad Gravaton/Antiope team you just lost to in sudden death the previous game. I can actually still remember specific games from that climb, and specific plays and even conversations I had with my teammates during those games, something I can't say for any other matches I've played in Destiny. Not only were the games in the upper ranks some of the most strategic I've ever had in the franchise(and nerve-racking) there was a real reward I was chasing when all was said and done. Something Bungie wasn't just gifting to the rest of the playerbase(something they immediately went back on in Forsaken and gave Broadsword, a better Claymore, to everyone) that was actually unique and powerful yet not absolutely broken like NF was on release. Claymore rewarded skilful aim. Too bad the rest of the game was an absolute bore. Double primary fixed rolls does NOT work for pve whatsoever, and neither does not having a Redrix equivalent for pve. Also Prestige raid lairs were ass lol. And the playerbase as a whole didn't like y1 pvp(hell less than 1% of ppl got Redrix and probably because less than 10% even tried) and Bungie has to have those more casual players to keep a game like Destiny going, and they like their cheesy 1 shot weapons and space magic. Cammycakes has made videos on this subject saying he loved Y1D2 but understood it was bad for the game as a whole and had to change otherwise the game would have died. Oh well, at least I have the emblem I can use from that time(when I can force myself to take my Bungie Bounty emblem I tried for 4 years to get off) obtained from hitting fabled, I wish legend would have given one as well and not just a Redrix ornament, which was cool at the time but is inconsequential now with the sunsetting of weapons, something an emblem doesn't have to worry about.
Yeah I still remember how brutal warmind comp was. If you wanted to climb at a reasonable rate (still super slow at the time)you had to go on 5 streak and if you lost you had to win like 3 games to make up for that L. Even if the player count was high, I would imagine it would be the same case of less than %1 of the population getting 5500. If you weren't an exceptional player with people to grind it out with, that goal of 5500 was unrealistic. With my sbmm at the time all I matched were sweats or pvp streamers like pure,zk or OneSecondKill. There were no bad players in my bracket so I had stay locked in
@@2011manchu if I remember correctly it was something like only 8k ppl got Redrix's, so the amount that got the skin was probably around 1k, across all platforms. And you're right, same ppl game after game, back when ZK and OSK still played on PS. As much as I appreciate the experience now it was extremely stressful at the time and it would be a mistake for them to go back to that. The Forsaken comp felt much better, it was still hard to hit legend and get NF, but it didn't require selling your soul lol.
I thoroughly enjoyed checkmate, with the exception of weapon outliers. For instance bows, smgs, etc. I know these are only outliers however with bungies previous track record I do t see any changes with if the next coming months.
I agree with 99% of your thoughts, but I feel in the competitive mode spawns need to competitive to the mode(not spawn Narnia/not spawning opposite from your team) with the newly added modes spawns haven’t been adjusted. But some things have higher priority than spawns.
I understand that sometimes people will get a BS spawn, but spawn logic generally works as intended, what happens is that the sporadic locations of players influences spawns greatly. In hindsight, the unlucky spawns might be BS, but if you actually analyze what happened in the moment, one could discern the cause of such spawns.
Damn man, thanks for talking about this seriously. You have been missed ngl
Thanks for the kind words!
I didn't mind double primary, I agree that the radar should have a range nerf. I do like slayer modes only, control is okay, but with all the abilities and special weapons not mention mindless blueberries, obj modes like countdown are terrible for a solo like me.
Yeah shoutout to Tony for all he does for the super small scrim community! So many cool people over there.
Destiny makes me feel bad when I play it. Used to literally dream of playing pvp, but that disappeared a little after stasis.
25:22 100% agree. I'm finding satisfaction in shatterline. It's gotten a bit stale but at least the weapons are fairly balanced and it gives me passion to improve. thanks for the videos bro, you're inspiring a lot of ppl out here! 🙏
Shatterline has seen better days, but I can't keep giving the developers grace when they make changes that are opposite of what players want
Missed the videos. Glad you’re back even if it’s just for one. I’m surprised to hear you like the objective based game modes. They sound like a good idea but actually promote most of what you’re complaining about. It’s run to a section of the map, sit behind a barricade, get free over shield, and use an ability or sniper to get a pick. Repeat. It also leans so heavily into the Titan, smg, and over shield meta that’s been going on way to long. I haven’t seen anyone enjoy countdown rush being added to comp this season and dominion trials is old for the same reason.
That stale gameplay you see in objective modes is more of the fault of the sandbox than it is the actual obj modes. I know this because this was not a common occurrence years ago in forsaken or warmind even against top teams. There is more flow to objective modes and there is actual thinking behind what to do and how to play it, this will not be case if you play solo or you still have slayer conditioning
I've heard these sorts of comments regarding other games and their metas, be it fighting games or chess. I don't know the first thing about Destiny, but this video seems so thoughtful and informed that I think I'll study it for game design in general.
I agree with a lot of what you’ve said. Although I do like special ammo, I understand why you’re not in love with it. I also seek meaningful knowledge skill gaps and gameplay. I was actually saddened by removal of 3v3 variant of rift from comp bc it, as you said, made people play the game differently vs pure slayer without thought. I feel in love with Destiny bc it was a thinking man’s game in addition to just twitch. It has definitely changed from this but I’ve yet to find another game to replace it to fill that void. I went flawless over the weekend and it was defensive super (🙄 bubbles + well) city but the uptake in time to reach the super this season made them less prevalent. Also, I think the super is the thing that makes Destiny unique and it shouldn’t never not be important in any game mode. I say this as someone who grunts loudly when I play zone trials and see defense titans so 🤷🏾♂️. Good video on the game I truly love like no other sans Halo.
I want to mention that's why players play destiny for different reasons, all I ask for is for bungie to meet in the middle with something that we can all tolerate in harmony. It's either one extreme (Year 1) or the other extreme (Forsaken up until now). Maybe the closest pvp had gotten to that was 30th anniversary, but I would say it's more just the novelty of the gameplay changing drastically than it was actually being really good.
The main reason I and other people who hate 3 player rift do so is mainly because of how if the enemies get too close it spawns you on the other side of the map witch just feels bad
@@Johnmaloney1962 Yeah it feels bad, but thats spawn logic working as intended, rift is a mode with big emphasis on life value, if your team gets wiped cleanly then you will be a disadvantage as punishment for getting wiped. The respawn timers used to be a lot longer and they shorted them in favor of the lesser skill players. Atleast if you got wiped quickly you still had a chance to stop the spark detonation if the enemy team was converting to your spawn fast enough.
Also, to answer your question about D2 Y1, I think most good players coming from D1 (remember No Land Beyond and sidearms being the main issue weapons at the time) just want cheese. Hell even I wasnt the biggest fan back then just because I sucked ass in PvP, however, now that I'm way better, I i wished I could have the same experience, so I could have the skill expression that I desire. Checkmate does this to a degree.
I completely agree with your viewpoint about D2 year 1.
There were multiple awful metas with antiope/gravlance coming to mind and Wormhusk Invis hunters, where it wouldn't give you aimassist on console.
However, once I came across Cammys channel and his PvP Commentaries I enjoyed the 4v4 back then way more than any Era of PvP after.
Even Forsaken seemed awful to me, since on console you couldn't use anything besides Luna's Howl/NF/Last Word for its whole lifetime, until Joker's Wild when Recluse came out.
There was way more variety in viable playstiles back in double primaries.
The Ability/Exotic Powerlevel and uptime were the best in its history though imo, besides Outliers like Flawless Execution and OEM.
Also yeah…. Remove radar from checkmate… if they try it there to see how it works out, that’d be awesome. Momentum I think has it, but it’s the opposite of checkmate where some weapons are super tuned to fry people. Funny how many people I see who don’t use radar as it is though. Free info
Keep in mind, they did experiment trials without radar, it was a complete failure, never tried it again.
happy to see another destiny video! it often times feels like destiny doesn't respect intelligence or effort on the part of the player: there's no cultivation of game sense with radar, no cultivation of actually thinking for a number of reasons. i'm happy to have an objective gamemode like countdown, but i can certainly see the frustration from the average player. the gulf in quality of gameplay between an organized team and an average solo q comp lobby is massive, and i can't fault people for being frustrated when 80% of players are playing countdown like it's clash.
i think the endless issues of a huge number of sandbox pain points and bad maps will continue to cripple the crucible, even in the face of things like comp rework/checkmate. checkmate's a great first step, but i can still crutch builds like bowswap in comp or trials any day of the week. even though i was complete ass at the time, i honestly miss the trials of the nine era even tho i was much much worse at the time, and i think you're right about double primary and competitive integrity.
hope to see more vids in my notifs soon :)
I discovered your channel while you were gone and listening to your various points, awesome to see you here again lol
I get your point about snipes, but imo fusions are just as egregious when you can precharge around a corner upon seeing some red on your radar, which makes competitive settings feel slower and more boring because taking a risk may mean getting one shot. I feel like quickplay specifically was slower in year one, though, because I have vivid memories of teams just holding hands with graviton lance in the back of meltdown lol.
All specials are egregious in PvP..sniping across the map, aping, hiding with a shotty around the corner while hawking the radar, melting with fusions and trace rifles..slap some stasis or strand on that and yea..you get the picture.
My biggest issue with D2 Y1 was not the double primary, it was the TTK. Had the TTK been faster, I would’ve been fine with DP.
Bungie should hire this guy. Seriously, you absolutely get what's going on. BTW, I have a question. You mentioned about some things under the hood that can actively play against you. Destiny is the only game that I feel there's a huge variability in my performance and I think there's something dynamic in the P2P connection architecture. Is there something baked in their system that gives an advantage to another player in some situations?
Possibly though I can't be too specific.
love to see your perspective on the game, I haven't even played since a little after witchqueen but still gotta keep up with lu
we used to face eachother all the time, seeing those lobby names i remember like 6 of them
Can't disagree with anything you said. Completely agree about the radar and game sense, it's a real leveler without it and stops the sit back and wait mentality. I used to love crucible/PvP but it hurts my soul now.
Really interesting and insightful takes, you brought up, a lot of stuff I’ve never even thought about.
Really interested in a no radar/reduced radar mode now. Especially if it added some checkmate elements.
Gotta love when a video is so good you sit down and watch all 27 minutes without starting another task.
Glad you enjoyed it appreciate you watching all the way
An issue with checkmate is handcannons still 3 tap while most other weapon types have had their ttk lengthened. And while Bungie lowered body shot damage of them to reward only crits, hitting 3 crits with a hc is something almost the entire pvp community can now do in their sleep. I love hcs, but I also like many other weapon types and using only hcs gets old fast for me. Also when a team gets special before the other, they can then use that special uncontested to get their next special drop and it snowballs to an unsurmountable deficit for the other team. Maybe Bungie changing it so special kills don't contribute to getting more could help. I don't envy the devs who are trying to balance pvp with how many weapons, exotics and abilities we now have because it seems near impossible at this point. I see no real way out but a fresh restart with D3, or I guess Marathon which is where most of the dedicated Destiny pvp team went. But extraction shooters aren't really my thing but we'll see how that plays out(it's releasing the year of GTA6 which means bad news for it, and anything else releasing that year imo).
Yeah this new pvp strike team has a big mountain to climb because they gotta somehow undo several years of damage to the pvp environment. I saw that they tried to make handcannons a 4 tap, but the HC enthusiasts weren't too happy with that. Like I mentioned it still looks like it needs hella work, but in an ideal circumstance where it's actually tuned properly, i don't see how this couldn't be normal crucible.
I actually think radar should be implemented in other games. I believe It speeds up gunplay along with adding a whole different skill gap. The other skill gap I am referring to is spacing. An smg or fusion player can space a shotgun player and win the fight through good use of the radar or vice versa. This is not to say you cannot space players without a radar but more so that the radar makes it less likely to die to a shotgun player holding a wall when you try to slide it for example. I look at it more so as a different form of game sense rather than free game sense. For me, spacing is the bread and butter of destiny gunplay.
Radar speeds up gunplay for those at a lower level than most, but in those high brackets, not so much. Sure there is the spacing element, but other games without free game sense of radar has spacing too. Look at Halo or valorant. It's about getting a good read on the situation and predicting what will likely happen next
D2Y1 is my favorite era of destiny period. At first I hated the pvp because of the handholdy deathballing gameplay, but I kept playing because I wanted to find a way to be better than those people. More than half my playtime in d2 to this day(I stopped playing during the last season of witch queen) was from Y1. being able to out think and out aim enemies without them just ending the gunfight with a cheesy ability or forcing the favor on themselves with overshields or knockout lunge was just so satisfying. I was ok in D1 but I really shined in D2 regardless of the skill gap. I genuinely miss Y1. A big issue with d2 as well is the radar having too much range and info. d1 was a game on a smaller scale so it makes sense that the radar had less range but d2 radar shouldnt have anywhere near as much range as it does.
You gave the destiny 2 Lunarz glazers a bone 💔💔💔💔
I miss your smg vids dude
Objectives gamemodes will never work in Destiny because the average player and even some above average players don't know how to play the objective. That is also compounded by defensive abilities like barricades and well/bubble.
Thats a playerbase problem more than it is an objective mode problem, some of these modes are generally well thought out, but players dont know how to play the objective because Bungie never made it an important skill to learn, just look at all the brainrot slayer modes or variations of slayer we have
I’m very curious how you feel about Halo. That was the game that changed my life and why I gave Destiny a chance. In short I initially felt that Destiny was Halo with supers. Ultimately, I still feel this way to an extent but D2 far differentiates itself from Halo. Vehicular fun aside, Halo exceeded Destiny in terms of meaningful ways to win/become a good player through various actions such as controlling spawns, map control, understanding of gameplay. CTF in Halo is so dynamic in general that nothing in D2 is like this game mode. However, I think in moment to moment combat, I feel D2 surpasses Halo bc of D2 unique meta game of ability, exotic, subclass management with counters. For examples to win in D2 I need knowledge of opposing teams subclasses, exotics, legendary items + unique perks, plus map knowledge, etc. this meta game of knowledge management + skills + situational awareness, all the things you mentioned in your video have me hooked on the game still. Halo seems closer to what you believe D2 should be, at least in theory anyway.
Also, I didn’t discover you until late. I learned of Tony and you through him. It seems you two see the only content creators who are articulating on PvP in the way I would, so I say thanks for y’all doing that.
I liked Halo infinite, but I wanted to play MnK and that was unrealistic with how much controller invalidated MnK. It's shame because it generally is what I would look for in a arcade shooter, but the bag was tossed super early on with soured my outlook on halo. It was my first Halo too
I dont even start Trials anymore. We get Steamrolled so hard. I didnt even bother with getting better. I liked Destiny 2 Vanilla PVP on release more then the PVP now. Checkmate seems to be going there again. But dunno.
Year 1 definitely was boring for me and it was partially because I was getting destroyed by the slow pace of the game. I was nowhere near as good at the game as I am now
What a great video. As a Semi PVP casual, this was very insightful. Thank you.
I saw the post, and thought I had to be getting a 2yr old vid rec
When the playbase shrinks, your chances of players ximmers, cronus users, aim assist on pc with m&k and outright cheaters is higher. Just how it is.
Lunar I was literally just thinking about you the other day like damn I miss listening to your takes. But god this game is going down man. I played ib and it’s just team shooting wells and bubbles with crazy passive play, then I tried clash to get something more upbeat but it was the same thing, just no crests to pick up.
The game is based on who has the most cheese/meta load out or who just has the more unlucky matchmaking which isn’t fun for anyone at all
Too much heavy ammo in comp countdown rush, too many lines in survival… yet again, survival needs to be dropped back to 4 revives. And also why not cap lives in count down rush to 4 as well?
Honestly think that if d2 year one was JUST in crucible with slightly faster ttks, it would have been a good pvp experience. Only reason I didn't play was because titanfall 2 existed and if there were special weapons in pve it would have been so much better.
I don’t think players hate objective based modes. It’s more so how bungie treat those modes and how they poorly implement those in the likes of comp that made those unfun. Partially the map selection is at fault but it’s clear they use the slayer modes notions and shove it in obj modes
I dunno. I think people hate obj modes because they aren't even given a chance to go from poor iteration to gradually seeing the process of it becoming better through feedback and playtime. Instead of the former, players would rather just do away with it altogether in favor slayer brainrot
@@2011manchu Maybe I’m still somewhat optimistic but I do believe with a new map or two and pushing more objective base modes would definitely benefit to changing the minds of players instead of shoving some made up domination iterations and call it new
@@NemNamz New maps in an awful sandbox is like buying furniture in a house with a hole in the roof and mold everywhere. Like at best, it's a brief moment of novelty before you realize it won't change the game in meaningful way. And they need to hire actual map designers to make good maps and not outsourcing it to artists because while the visual flair is cool, every new map the has got, has only played horribly. They need to be designed with symmetry and flow first. Not environment first.
Lol always had fun playing against you in those early days. Great insight & perspective on the state of crucible which is why i stopped playing around Beyond Light.
cooking ❤🔥
antiope the goat. I didnt see a problem with vanilla d2, i liked combining smgs with pulses/scouts back then on titan. ive played the same way just more refined now since then. might be boring to some people but playing that way is the way i enjoy the game. the fun weapons i use are dual cascade point smgs on PK. fun mini game. checkmate is on the right path, it just throws me off because ive gotten used to certain weapon ttks, i think i would actually like primary damage the same as core and special weapon damage tuned down maybe. the ability nerf in there is amazing, but for special weapons it begins to get out of hand at the middle to the end of the match.
So there is a "Special O Clock" in checkmate it seems. Like I said, I find reward in using primaries so by virtue of that, I naturally have a bias towards year 1 but it was far from perfect.
antiope is my weapon i stg, it still is so powerful in 6's, i have 25,000 on one of them and 5k on another, slowly building up the new one to 50k. gun never ever gets old.
@@yhellohYup, antiope has been my consistent hackusation farm weapon
Just saw this video, glad to see you back making content.
I do disagree with your statement that HoW/TTK/Forsaken would be unplayable, but I don't have the time to go deeper into it atm. Hope you make more videos
PS. idk if you remember me but we played in the past.
I remember you and I still stand on my opinion. Those times periods were playable only because everyone was bad and lacked hella knowledge. Put current day player skill in those sandboxes and it would play out so horribly. If you want an example of how bad the game can get just watch Calico's no rule tournament
@2011manchu Glad to see you're still responding to older comments. I'll leave my full response later, but one thing I'll bring up is for example, primary vs. special balance.
IIRC, you didn't play d1y1. Specials were absolutely wild back then, + you geniunely had infinite ammo. And yet, primary weapons dominated the kill chart. Even auto rifles, which were pretty horrible, had more kill than specials. The reasoning IMO is the sandbox: radar didnt have the same range as D2, we moved slower and you couldnt hide behind abilities (barricade, Overshields, etc) and weaker perks (no opening shot on snipers, for example) to cheese OHKs.
I'll collect my thoughts better in the future. Till then, Godspeed.
Calio's tournament was funny to watchcbut yes, its bad because D2 sandbox is bad. A lot of old d1 players hated class abilities as a concept, but as annoying as it was its nothing compared to now. Barricades had much longer cooldowns + werent tied to resilience nor granted you buffs suspend, woven mail armor or overshield. Personally, d2 pvp went downhill starting with Shadowkeep. Introduction of artifact affecting PvP + stronger abilities and gradually reducing cooldowns. And even then its a slope. Like the OHK knife was cool and takes more skill than freezinf someone but its still not something i wanted to see back in season of dawn (December 2019), yet Bungie continued to add more and more dumbshit to Destiny. I still play the game, usually rumble, and its boring. I either get noobs to stomp or i get titans using cronus spamming barricades the moment they're shot at.
And one more thing: A lot of people played sweats. Even if pubs were insufferable in old sandboxes, i enjoyed playing against simklar skilled opponents in that sandbox. I enjoyed two tap tlw and blink quickdraw, or not forgotten dust rock blues + ace of spades beloved.
And in the final hour, the GOAT returns!
To your point at the end; I think Destiny will (and should) "always be Destiny" but I think they can do a lot of things to improve the PvP experience that will make it more fun/rewarding/skillful while still keeping the Destiny feeling. Appreciate your thoughts on the game as always man, hope you're doing well.
i feel like the new checkmate mode is a good change. gives me some hope for the game. i would love to see a version w no radar at least in trials and comp
Joe saying there are plans to move over successful elements to primary crucible is the worst news I've heard from the studio this year. The only thing I can get behind (with some tweaks) is how it handles special ammo. Otherwise it's the most dreadful experience in the game for me. I'd rather relic and mayhem be the mainstay modes that they attempt to balance rather than checkmate.
@@Zevox144 i think we just enjoy different things about the crucible. I feel like it should be more about gunplay. I like checkmate because your abilities are still very powerful but you cant spam them as much so you have to be good with your primary.
The goat is backkk
Missed your vids youve got a lot of talent but still so underrated
No radar in comp would be amazing.
Damn the talk about radar is something no pvp content creators actually try to talk about (at least not recently) and tweaks to it would change so much and is one of the key pieces checkmate needs and why it feels so bad (mostly in 6s) to play, as always love the Destiny pvp talk its always interesting to hear especially as D2 heads into its final stage and looking back on the game on the good times as well as what could have happened is more enjoyable then actually playing it
Destiny has seen better days that's for sure. As well as the community
Man always speaks logic and backs it up with facts. Still one of the best Desting players to touch the game. Miss the content my dude.
Damn, being 4th most reported player, for a year? That's insane. I wonder how many Bungie devs/staff have came into your stream, assuming that you're cheating, and then just be corrected by what they're watching and hearing.
And, if things do actually get better, I may get back in myself.
You're probably one of the most chill streamers, let alone, FPS player Ive met, aside Wormy and Gleaux.
Only several including Tocom used to frequent my stream, the others went by very odd aliases that I don't even remember unless I really dig through the logs. Appreciate your kindness.
@@2011manchu I played Checkmate with Wormy a bit when it was released, I liked it, but everyone noticed how uniquely strong Hand Cannons were in the gamemode. You basically never found a lobby without like at least 6 of them.
@@leafyisnthere9396 yeah I heard that was the main complaint of the mode, if handcannons is the main thing of concern then I'd for Bungie's standards the mode has a really good foundation, but I would rather wait and played a refined version of checkmate instead of the prototype version because if the modifier goes away, I defo wouldn't be interested in playing the vanilla game and that abomination of a sandbox
@@2011manchu Yeah the base sandbox is a nightmare ive been hearing from friends and checking into Wormy's stream from time to time.
Looks like its so unfun that Wormy and everyone he games with have all moved onto MWIII.
Oh, and about the radar mechanics. Theres a F2P game Ive played off and on for years and it has a wonderful radar, you're only on the radar for moments(theres a different duration for every type of weapon) after shooting, or if youre like right on top of a player.
not gonna lie, in a comp setting, i got pssy pounded in year one, ut i loved using graviton (before it ever got buffed) to try to get as many multi kills and we rans if they happen, i just love sniping, so i hated the power ammo system, but yes i can see your points quite vividly
I was literally just binging your vids u are a beast at pvp games bro
Rewarding gameplay for me is no ability just gun play cause that abilitystuff is cheese and not only it’s cheese imagine going against a cheater using consistent ability uptime or better yet a player that just sits back and wait for their ability to come up to mess your streak up like bro bungie need to just make a game mode where you just use guns
All in this video needed to be said and I’m glad you said it Lu 🖤
many amazing points but I just randomly havent watched you in a while and so I looked up your channel for some d2 content and just now you post lol.
Interesting timing haha
What’s the instrumental called
I missed these videos. More content creators need to stop sugarcoating the problems with the game. You are the only one being real with bungie
honestly think that checkmate being the core mode is the best thing that bungo has done for pvp in a long time, my only problem is that without special crutching some people have turned to very cheesy strats, this is expected but god is it annoying
Yeah, the reason I mentioned that you can't really find an improvement based environment in regular pvp is because there are too many outliers. It's why comp rework didn't do anything lol. Bungie is too afraid to ban or restrict stuff
5:59 you literally just described my entire youtube channel lmao. that hit of dopamine from a seventh column is on par with a heavy dose of morphine. the stealth nerfs to golden gun have killed any motivation to play, especially when people bombard my videos with hate comments.
Also, the way you speak is incredibly articulate and astute, and you seem to have spent a lot of time preparing what you want to say, especially when your sentences flow so coherently.
22:01 As a momentum control player I think radar should be removed. Destiny spawns and player locations are so predictable that 80% of the time I can confidentially pre aim someone behind a wall. You build enough game sense to have wall hacks built into your brain. Momentum control forces you to learn every possible spawn point, every possible angle of attack, and ALSO allows you to take advantage of cool things like throwing a stasis grenade up high and using it as a height advantage or hiding inside of a Salvations Grip crystal and watching people run by.
23:25 respectfully I think the brain rot comes from playing the competitive modes and using the same weapon setup and fighting the same loadouts match after match after match after match. In momentum you can use ANY gun you want and be competitive. You have to earn your abilities, they do not recharge unless you get kills or capture zones. The fact that I can use a standing tall ( a green 340 pulse) or home again (a green auto rifle) and be competitive against any other gun really brings out the fun side of destiny.
It’s wild how every destiny vid you drop has wildly higher view count
miss ya bud
Appreciate ya sir Castle o7
This video would be a lot better if you had actually played checkmate, people actually enjoyed the lower ability spam and focus on primaries. The issue was the imbalanced weapon sandbox it presented because of the ttk changes, the meta was figured out to be hand cannons immediately
The video and my opinion on checkmate would have likely been the same. Just like my opinion on sbmm. "How can you comment on it if you haven't tried it?" I don't need to eat shit to know it tastes bad.
@@2011manchu in the video though you point out some pain points like a lack of primary gunplay, to me it sounds like you are prime candidate for checkmate. So it’s just interesting that you made this video but won’t try it. To me that’s the major issue with destiny, is even if something comes out that competitive inclined players would enjoy, Destiny is at the point that they won’t even give it a shot.
@@jake93 It's more so the fact that it isn't a permanent thing. Why get attached to a modifier that isn't there long term. If it goes away that means that if I wanna play pvp, I gotta play the vanilla game and that horrid sandbox. So I will just spare myself the annoyance
@@2011manchu I think it’s supposed to be permanent for now, they said it’ll be checkmate control for 5 weeks then go into labs, not sure if that’s rotating though. Then checkmate trials is coming at some point this season, we had checkmate comp at one point. It’s almost always available currently. They did do a round of ability nerfs but they are still pretty potent in vanilla
Honestly at this point I would just be content with removal dominion in trials, pure solo queue for all the mods and no SBMM. Really dont care about anything else at this point
as for radar? imagine if you had to pull up the radar in its own animation in order to get information, or in a funny idea, if it was audio only radar, soft bleeps that increase in pitch kind of like in the iconic alien movies, lol but you have to know where they are coming from via game sense
Maybe, but thats too far out because they gotta fix this sad excuse of a sandbox first.
Welcome back lunarz
I missed you so much
You always have solid, well thought out and interesting takes. Hoping bungie can take a couple notes and maybe make Destiny the best game it can be!
Imo I think the biggest reason why checkmate won't become the pvp default is because
1) For a lot people skill expression = extraordinary performance (high kills, high KD) with moderate or low effort
2) better players are able to figure out minor advantages and smaller details much faster than worse players. This gives them an overall leg up on others and allows them to adapt to new environment faster
Overall, good players step in and dominate essentially immediately and don't have to practice forever to do so. As you go down the skill ladder, players struggle more and for longer despite doing their best and that resentment and envy suppresses their desire to enter a new environment, essentially because it means that they won't "feel as good" as they normally get to in normal pvp, even if normal pvp is objectively less balanced.
That's a fair point that I didn't consider for sure. Base crucible just allowe for a string of kills really quickly, but in checkmate things do look a lot slower for reasons you outlined.
Incredible for you to be so goated that you’re reported for cheating relentlessly. Incredible video.
I really like that they recently added a no abilities mode. I love the thought of hunters struggling without their dodge spam. I agreed with everything except your view that being aggressive in this game is a disadvantage. That's not 100% true. There're plenty of players and teams that are insanely aggressive and incredibly successful at it.
THERE IS NOTHING ELSE TO PLAY
no game comes close to the feel and power fantasy that Destiny has. No game can scratch that movement itch for me. And that feeling you get when you finally get the weapon roll you’ve been chasing for hours or days, it’s literally a high. Destiny is special but it’s being ruined by greedy out of touch suits.
GTA 6 can’t come soon enough
Power fantasy? do heroin. But if you enjoy power creep games, play warframe.
I wrote two seperate comments, went to edit them and they both got deleted, this is annoying.
I'll summarize them, year 1 was too slow (movement sliders too), lanes were too heavily camped, and it was too stale without special. I compared it to Halo 3's MLG playlist, but no weapons on the map, or power-ups. It would get boring.
Cool to see you upload, I still recommend your "controlled aggression" video to people who ask how to get better. I'm not editing shit in this message, so it stays.
I'm sorry that youtube is on the nonsense lol, but yeah year 1 being boring and slow and stale is a valid critique, but I felt like more of not understanding the gameplay than it was boring, but its easier to say boring. I think this insane amount of powercreep and these ridiculous builds and weapons are what makes the game stale to me. If people enjoy that, fine but I'm not gonna play the game. And appreciate you sending people over my way even though I don't play anymore 🤝
@2011manchu yea, I definitely see how it would be less fun at your level, and the methodical team nuances are more your style. I did play Year 1 Trials of the Nine, I went 47-1 with a 2.28 k/d (IGN - Strategicat, Xbox.) For me, it was just too little of reward back then, now it's too cheesy lol. I will say though, point trials is bad and countdown was way more intense.
@@RawrasaurRS Yeah it's either one extreme or the other
@2011manchu good luck in the Finals, it would be sick to see you pop-off on that game and get the recognition you deserve for your skills!
I missed these
Glad to see you here man
These are excellent points. Though, I would argue that the top 10% of pvp players in this game probably don't affect Bungie's bottom line. Which is why pvp is no longer part of the monetization for D2. Without money to be made, there's no reason for massive overhauls, like what you suggest.
About that very last bit... Not the "Destiny will continue being Destiny" part specifically, but rather your reason for dismissing it out of hand. This is very much a strawman argument. You want the game to be a certain way, but the game has always been this way. To say that it will "continue to bleed players" because "destiny will continue being destiny", doesn't actually have anything to do with what you talk about for 90% of the video. Bleeding players is something that happens every year in D2. Getting them back is also something that happens every year in D2. What makes it different this time, isn't the fact that PVP has been neglected (like it has been for years, point of fact) or even that there's a stale seasonal content model (which there absolutely is), it's about changes that were made in the name of quality of life improvements.
The game fundamentally changed when they removed pinnacle pursuits. The game fundamentally changed when they removed leveling. The game fundamentally changed when they added crafting. Players have nothing to pursue. They have no to height to reach. The game has changed to maximize returns for lower engagement. Yes, there was a problem with FOMO, but the way they chose to handle that was to gut the core experience. You can't call your game an MMO or MMO-lite, then take out the elements that make it an MMO.
Destiny will, in fact, continue being Destiny. Because every aspect of the game, whether it's PVP or PVE, will continue to be dumbed down so that anyone off the street can come in and get everything they want. That's the way it's always been with this game, from this developer.
But hey, they still have the best feeling shooting mechanics in he history of video gaming...
I respect your opinion, but only time will tell if my argument of the mediocrity is a strawman. The infinite money glitch seems to be no more so we will see what comes of it
Holy fuck new Lunarz video
Oi bruv
OG knock ‘em down, how I’ve missed you :(
Oh yes, i missed her too :c
Based take on the Radar tbh, too much informations kiils pvp
Thst radar talk was interesting but we are so far away from reaching that point. Bungie would have to properly balance their game in order to even reach that point. From broken abilities likes decoys and the ark warlock melee which by the way they still havent balanced properly have 3 times 😂. Weapon outliers would be target lock smgs and high impact pulses still. Before they can get to the nitty gritty. They must first address all the bullshit first wich they have failed to fo so over years now. (By the way checkmate does fix alot of these for example high impact pulses cant 2 burst and less ability spam. However, that is still not enough for the game to be playable at your standards.)
True lol
Lunarz uploads
ITS 27 MINUTES
2:50 my boy with the flex ohh
And honestly (unrelated) but battlefield 2042 has really been hitting the spot for me. Highly recommend!
Mouse input is bugged so that's an immediate no from me lol. The gameplay itself looks fun, but not having agency over my mechanics is not fun.
i didnt enjoy deathballing teams idk what he's talking about. That shit was boring af nothing to accomplish other than getting hate mail for being too good.
I'd say the biggest problem that Destiny has for pvp is the playerbase.
Over 80% are the space magic 1 hitter quitters whom main special and cheesy shit and the other 20% who value gunplay and awareness over cheesy bullshit.
If Bungie moves to support that 20%, the other 80% bitch and moan and then they leave. When the 80% leave, the 20% don't like sweating their ass off every game since they've constantly fighting the same teams over and over again because of the SBMM and such.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Destiny's pvp is overly casual and it seems like even when players get what they want, they don't like it and tell bungie to turn it back. 🤷
Destiny is not destiny unless there’s 1HK special weapons in PvP. Yes it can be obnoxious, but it’s not boring. Team shooting is both boring and obnoxious.
The best middle ground is only getting special from ammo spawners around the map like in D1.