EASY Fuel Injector Testing | Automotive Oscilloscope Diagnostics | Mechanic Mindset
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2024
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How to test a fuel injector using an oscilloscope; this video looks at the voltage waveform. We look at fuel injector waveform analysis where we can identify resistive circuit faults and see pintle movement. I am using the PicoScope 2204A, a super affordable oscilloscope set up (links below).
Link to PicoScope Waveforms: www.mechanicmindset.com/share/76
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0:00 How to test a fuel injector with an oscilloscope
1:13 How to identify fuel injector circuit wiring
1:49 How to connect the oscilloscope to a fuel injector
2:08 How to test the fuel injector power supply
3:22 How to obtain an injector waveform
3:37 Do you need an attenuator to test an injector
4:00 Setting up the oscilloscope for a fuel injector waveform
5:33 How to test the injector ground
6:05 How to analyse an injector waveform
6:50 Installing a fault on the injector circuit
7:13 Adjusting vertical resolution on PicoScope
7:52 Identifying mechanical pintle movement inside the injector
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The Mechanic Mindset channel is here to help you improve your automotive diagnostic skills. We upload regular, easy to understand, automotive training and tutorial videos covering topics such as; oscilloscope diagnostics, PicoScope, CAN bus, waveform analysis and much more! Subscribe to stay up to date! - Auta a dopravní prostředky
I understand your way of explaining these things more than the actual courses i have completed at manufacturer training centres.
Thank you Darren, for this excellent and very informative video!
Thanks, glad you enjoyed the video! 👍
Wow! Great info here! Thanks so much for sharing that information about how to get that pintle hump to show up on the fuel injector by adjusting the scale, the resolution, and the time. That was very helpful!
It’s a great test, I have seen people jam injectors closed on purpose and the hump is gone! Glad you’re enjoying the channel! Cheers
Thank you Darren. Good job again. God bless you and your family.
Thanks Billy, glad you enjoyed the video!
Thanks so much for taking the time to make these videos Darren.
You do a great job explaining yourself in a non intimidating manner. Was really happy to see your notification of new content as I'm in Covid isolation and going stir crazy.
Keep up the good work and take care!
Thanks for the feedback John, glad you are enjoying the videos! Been quite busy with work and house move this last few months, so hopefully I will be able to post more as I have lots of content to share 🤞👍
I love your video, I started using oscilloscope and you help me a lot thank you. Кeep up the good work and take care!
Great to hear!!
Another great video... easy to follow . Easy to understand as always.
Thanks for the feedback Trevor, glad you enjoyed it!👍
I follow you with passion ❤️ from IRAQ🇮🇶
Great to have you on the channel 👍
Hello Darren, happy new year to you, looking forward to watching this tonight.
Happy New Year Billy, hope you enjoy!
Thank you so much from France !
I love your videos and your particular style.
You help me a lot.
Thanks for the feedback! You might enjoy our online training platform and mobile app too. Structured training courses with subtitles if required 👍 You can see the free access area to test it out
Exceptional instruction. Consistent and detailed in every video. Top notch.
Thanks!
Thanks Darren, your videos is what I always looked for for using Oscilloscopes on Automotive.
Glad you are enjoying the videos! What oscilloscope are you using?
@@MechanicMindset I have old model Pico with parrallel to USB Adapter, ADC200, but it got a little bit outdated.
@@AMGTOM If it works……. 👍
excellent and very informative video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
excellent video, thanks for sharing. Cheers
Excellent video
Love this video.
Thank you very much for the very interesting video
great video and nice explanation Mate . thanks friend hopefully we can see the current waveform next time
Glad you enjoyed it! Current waveform video dropping tomorrow 👍
@@MechanicMindset great i am exciting to watch it .
Going to check it out now
New subscriber and an excellent informative video. Thank you for sharing. Everyone starts with the big expensive scopes glad to see your using what I have. Yes it’s two channels but it’s very good. I’m a retired aircraft mechanic Diyer so I will be following your channel. Very easy to follow and understand. Thanks for sharing Artie 👍😊
Great to have you on the channel. Yeah the 2204A is a great little scope. Hope you enjoy the channel!
I’m sure I will. Everybody keeps pushing the big expensive one but for a normal everyday diyer and a channel like yours I’m sure it should work just fine. Thanks for your reply and thanks for sharing your knowledge and videos Artie
@@arthurfricchione8119 It’s like cars, you buy a cheap one and learn to drive it to its limits and appreciate it for what it is. Then when it’s time to upgrade you know what you are looking for and understand why you are paying the extra money. 👍
love these vids im going to join up for the corses ,
Awesome thanks! Let us know if you have any questions 👍
Nice and simple. We'll done.
Glad you enjoyed the video 👍
Sweet, good videos mate
Cheers John, glad you’re enjoying the channel!
nice and quick
It’s Funny I got my A 2204A on Sunday I was outside on Wednesday doing my own injector waveforms and got the same image, the extra settings are handy as I didn’t think I was getting the pintal move movements showing up I will try again when I’m next off. I got a cam crank correlation but I setup the scope wrong and got a ton of data on the screen you really have to zoom in a lot to get the detail. I will try again with this just not been the weather lately as you know. Keep up with the great videos I have learned a lot from you already. All the best. Steve.
Haha, yes it was cold making this video, 1degC I think! Once you start playing you can find all the right settings. For cam/crank I prefer to reduce the time setting rather than zoom in; give that a go. Congrats on the scope purchase, they’re hard to get at the minute! 👍
Thank you sir for sharing your knowledge very informative video Happy new year Darren.
Happy New Year to you too! Glad you enjoyed the video 👍
Great video Bud.
Cheers George 👍
KNOWLEDGEABLE Mechanic Mindset
Very helpful tutorial video thank you very much 👍
Mechanic Mindset
From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧
Great video.
A colour wiring diagram? Damn! Last time I saw that was about 15 years ago and around 500 dollars AUD for a Toyota hilux. Subbed and liked 👍. Cheers from Australia 🙂
Great video now we need an injector wave form analysis on gdi injectors
Nice video mate,
Learnt some new info in this one.
Thanks for sharing & happy new year to ya 👍
Happy New Year Gerard. Glad you enjoyed the video! 👍
Muy buena la explicación
Pregunto que está sucediendo si al arrancar el motor funciona bien el inyector, pero al acelerar unas 1300 rpm el motor deja de trabajar el inyector, será fallo en el motor o el ECU.
GRACIAS
Thank you very much.
You’re welcome, hope you enjoyed!
well explained.
Thanks!
good vid
Fab videos really informative. struggled a bit with the 100 volts on the scope image ? Thanks Rick
Cheers Rick! Happy to help with understanding the 100V. Can you clarify your question a bit further?
Always such good content in the videos you do. Great work.
Question for you though. Would this same test work on direct injectors also? Piezoelectric?
Great question, it kind of applies to GDI injectors, a bit harder to notice. Not for diesels. Not for piezo 👍
I do love my Picoscope once I've got it set up. If I wasn't a mobile tech I'd have it permanently set up on a mobile cart. I find it much easier to get out my Fluke 190-204. But even that becomes a hassle because of its size. It seems a bit silly of me complaining about its size, when I started in the late seventies the scope I used was too tall to see over and was nearly as wide as the car I was working on. I just ordered the Owon HDS4202M-N 2 channel 200mhz 1gsa scope. It's a bit pricey compared to a lot of handheld offerings, but it still pales in comparison to the Fluke (ouch, that hurt). We'll see, the channels aren't isolated so hopefully I don't send any smoke signals with it.
My Grandad had a Sun machine that took up the whole of the van at the back; he did mobile tuning. Just trying to think of a convenient set up for mobile PicoScope.
I like the Owon 👍
A simple electrical model of an high impedance fuel injector is a series R-L circuit which will have the classic exponential current waveform if operating properly, or at least electrically operating properly. Most of the injector electrical failure modes can be identified by capturing the injector current waveform with a clamp on current probe and viewing the current waveform on an oscilloscope. For auto applications I like to use a Fluke Scopemeter and Fluke Clamp on current probe, although not an inexpensive option. Both are battery operated.
Just clamp on the injector ouput low side wire and observe the waveform. In identifying a misfire, injectors have a tendency to short out the coil internally which will change the current waveform from exponential to linear (resistance only). So move from injector to injector and the one with the linear (or strange in some way) current waveform is the one that has failed. When one injector shorts, it is best to replace all of them. Injectors which fail electrically due to heat have a tendency to come in batches. Which means if one fails others may follow on the same engine original from the factory. If the failure is in the ECM low side driver then you will see no current event. However, this type of failure is part of the module on-board diagnostics and will usually register a DTC.
The clamp on current probe is easy to connect and directly measures current (current in a coil is directly related to its magnetic flux, which is how it works).
Thanks for the insights! We followed up with this very test 👍 Let me know what you think! I simulated the short. czcams.com/video/6yaox9b9M5A/video.html
Great video. You have a very good presentation style. What do you think about grounding scope at battery vs engine block? Doesn’t pcm usually use engine block for grounds? I would assume ground measurements would be lower.
Great question; it depends. If the battery is right there, I will ground on negative terminal. If not, the engine block is fine. Chassis is better, as it doesn’t move and shake when the engine is running. As for PCM, it varies - most sensor grounds and switched grounds go back through the PCM and in my experience, most PCMs ground to the chassis. I would say the engine ground is mainly used for the starter motor, alternator and spark plugs. 👍
Could you use an oscilloscope to measure & compare injector dead time (mechanical opening and closing time) for fuel injectors off an engine but in receipt of a common current?
Someone else asked this; I suppose theoretically you could, in conjunction with the current ramp to see the open point. I am not sure the information is clear cut enough to define the reference-points on the waveform as true closed to open. It seems engine tuners have no true method to define unknown dead times. Do need the figure for performance tuning?
I had an 'aha moment' when I realized why they use a zener diode inside the pcm to protect from the voltage spike. Most of the time for a coil that is abruptly turned off, a flyback reverse polarity rectifier diode is used in parallel with the coil. Here all the protection is inside the PCM, simplifying circuitry inside the injector.
Clever stuff! Check out my video ‘ECU Killer’ we look at relays and the resistor used to ‘soak’ the spike 👍
I really like your videos. I like the way you explain things and I use the exact same scope. One problem I have is sometimes I get really boxy looking wave forms. Like instead of waveform lines across the screen with curves and ramps, my lines across the screen are sometimes little spiky triangles. I'm not sure if I've just got some setting wrong or what is causing it.
Hi, check this video out on sample rate, this might explain the triangles:
czcams.com/video/DIzGPeFtpLw/video.html
If you get a pattern like a staircase, that’s vertical resolution. There is a vertical res enhancement feature, you can increase it one at a time, but it will eventually flatten out your waveform. Glad you’re enjoying the channel! 👍
@@MechanicMindset thanks!
Hey Darren,
Thanks for the detailed explanation!
I'm just about to purchase the new PicoScope 4425A with BNC + for my business.
Gotta be honest - little bit excited.
Well done on the video - you've given me more detail to present to the apprentices at the college.
Great use of the Pico, yet again! 😉
MiracleMAX
Glad you enjoyed the video, hope your students use the info well 👍
You won’t be disappointed with that 4425A, awesome bit of kit! Cheers
Hello, great videos really enjoying them. Please can answer a question im looking all over for the answer. I wanted to buy a hantek 3 in 1 oscilloscope 2c42 but I want to measure injector and ignition waveforms, so I need an attenuator ht201 but I can't find anywhere is that is compatible and will work and show me what I wish to see. Appreciate a reply and maybe you could do a video about the hand held oscilloscopes with screen built in vs a unit connected to a pc or tablet. Many thanks
Hi, Sorry, I’ve not got that oscilloscope so not sure how an attenuator is fitted (or any BNC adapter). Something I will look in to 👍
Hello Darren. Wish you can do test and checks on diesel CR injectors, pressure rail sensor and pressure or flow regulator. Thanks Master.
On the list 👍
Two great videos. Will you do a piezo diesel one in the future?
Yes I will do a video for piezo when I can. Need to find a car with them on. Most manufacturers reverted to an improved solenoid injector some years back. But some of the larger Diesel engines still use them. Cheers!👍
So for solenoid type injectors when scoping the voltage you want to be on the ground side switched wire? And for current you can be on either wire is this correct?
my 4-cyl Tracer 1.8 engine has lost power & been running rough. so a plan is to use a
1054 Rigol 4-ch scope and view the f-i signals.
seeing your vid has saved me some possible damage by your pointing out the sizable
coil inductive spike.
the rigol 1054 has a Vin max rating of about 300V. so with using all 4 probes at 10:1 setting i ought
to be ok. but will 1'st use a 100:1 hi-voltage probe and see just what each f-i actually is.
plan is later to capture all 4 at once. so that any obvious differences show up.
the 1054 is about 5 yrs old and cost some $400. and its 'zillion' of features comes
with a considerable learning curve. the model i have now has all of its 30-day trial
features un-locked. speed, memory depth , decoding etc. its a heck of a
deal for the cost
all of its use until now has been to view the ignition signals of my 2 motorcycles.
where it has proved invaluable in identifying fault location. most recently that the
timing coil signal off the flywheel is the problem for my 100crf honda. not the cdi module
Awesome, how did you get on?
SO helpful! Why did you need the attenuator? I thought you only needed that when dealing with coils/spark.
It’s because the induced voltage spike goes higher than 20V; max measured input is 20V for this scope. Cheers!
Thanks nice video,,, diesel injectors????
Thanks for your detailed explanations, Darren, I am torn between the 2205a and 2204a. Same bit resolution but not sure if the 25 vs 10MHZ is going to help much since there still 8 bit, what do you think? I would like to move up to a 2408a eventually but would like to get some experience with the Pico first, then decide whether it is worth the upgrade or not. Thanks for any suggestions. Currently using the Autel mp408 but the Pico Software is really looking good for a lot of reasons.
The big difference you’ll notice is the sample rate increase for the 2205 - get the 2204A, play with it a bit, then you’ll want a 4425 👌
This was brilliant, very informative and helpful. Would a diesel injector perform in a similar fashion?
Glad you enjoyed the video! In a way, yes although it depends. There are a few main different types; old 12V solenoid, new solenoid (60V I think) and piezo
@@MechanicMindset thanks for replyingand putting out the great content. Cheers.
I just wanted to say I picked up a Pico because of your videos....which are great. I would like to check the voltage/current of all 6 injectors by using a fuse loop wire at the fusebox, since 3 of them are buried under the intake. Would I have to change any settings in the software?
Awesome! You would just have to adjust the time settings to see them all. I have just launched a course which covers all the settings for Pico! Check it out here: www.mechanicmindset.com/oscilloscope-masters
@@MechanicMindset Thanks...will do
Hello! Very informative and easy to understand videos! What about diagnostic tools? What do you use most often?
Glad you enjoyed the video. I mostly work on BMWs in my spare time and have access to Dealer Diagnostics. I have had a play with some aftermarket solutions and cover in more depth soon. Can you recommend anything that is good value?
@@MechanicMindset Thank for your answer!No, I cannot advise. I haven’t dealt with cars professionally for a long time. I’m just interested, I want to buy an inexpensive multi-brand device for myself and my friends’s cars. But there are too many questionable offers and the choice is difficult ... Waiting new videos!
@@alexorlov7737 Launch I think is a good affordable option. But not used it 👍
I have been looking at oscilloscopes and it seems by the time you pay for attenuators amp clamps and other attachments it would be close to the cost of a Hantek DSO2D10 or similar that can handle the amperage and high voltage that has better specs. What is your opinion?
It’s such a difficult decision with all the choice! Personally I recommend the Pico 2204a to start. The software is 99% same as the top range automotive. I am not a fan of Hantek software. The Pico are also easy to sell if you chose to upgrade. Either way, all the BNC probes will cross over to other scopes 👍
Hello Darren, I'm a new subscriber and have been working to educate myself on oscilloscope usage for automotive diagnostics. I'm glad I found your channel as your videos are very well done!
If I may ask a question: does the non-automotive Pico scope have the same resolution as the more expensive automotive model? I read that the software license for the automotive scope has pre-configured settings and math channels than the standard software license which makes it easier (and faster) for diagnostic work. Would you know if this is indeed true?
I would love to buy a Pico scope but the auto version is outside my price budget.
Cheers from Ohio!
Hi Dave, great to have you on the channel! Glad you’re enjoying the content 👍
The cheapest ‘non automotive’ PicoScope with specs close to the 4425 range would probably be the 2405A (4 channel version of the scope I use). My 2204A is bottom of the range but fairs up pretty well as you can see. Sample rate and vertical resolution are the key specs here.
Yes, the auto version has a few preset probes and math channels, but nothing you can’t import or replicate for free.
A big advantage of the Auto scope is the waveform library access and the separate diagnostic software. I would say these focus more on being ‘guided diagnostic’ aides, where as what we have to do with the non automotive scopes is learn how to use and interpret the oscilloscope; which is what we are all about on this channel!
So if you are pro mechanic, the auto scope can be a great investment. If you want to get in to the world of scopes, go for whatever Pico you can afford; everything you learn is transferable and you can sell second hand PicoScopes easy.
Hope that helps!
@@MechanicMindset Thank you, Darren. I greatly appreciate your reply and the information you've shared! I believe the 4-chanmel scope is only $150 more than the 2-channel here in the U.S. so that'll be what I budget for. It'll be a great tool to learn from and I can always sell it later on and upgrade to the automotive unit.
Best regards!
New subscriber!
Man how can i find a beautiful wiring diagram like yours?!
Great to have you join the training too!
I found this wi I got diagram online by searching Google. It is the original Suzuki diagram. Good isn’t it! 👍
Very well explained, let us say if the both the injector wires are directly coming from all the ECU, can i use same method to check the injectors?
Hi, yes. But it will look different. This is the same set up for direct injection injectors right? Thanks!
@@MechanicMindset i was checking a wiring diagram on Porsche SUV long ago, that had a dfi system & both the wires comes from ECU....you mean the waveform will look different..?
Thanks
@@vicky-nc3to Yes the waveform will look different 👍
Will you do a video on diesel injectors?
Hopefully soon 😅
Stay tuned 👍
You can increase your sample rate also it will give you good pic
For someone starting out in osciloscopes, would you suggest pico 6 or 7?
Pico 7 for sure. So much easier to learn 👍. It’s all I use now
Hi. Is the picoscope software free? Does it work with hantek 1008b?
Hi, yes it’s free. No, not for Hantek
The 500mV are from the voltage drop of the driver transistor inside the ECU. Transistors always have this kind of drop, mosfets don't.
This is a good point! Thanks for sharing 👍
Ok you said if the signal voltage does not go back to zero then you have a resistance problem... And with the attenuator you got 500 mv so how can I not mistake this for a resistance faut on the ground?
Great question; if you had a fault and were concerned that it could be a resistance issue, the line could be double checked with an ohm meter. But to be honest, 500mV in a ground is just about acceptable anyway. In training we say 500mV drop on live and 300mV on a ground. I can’t say I recommend this (but I do it all the time 😬), you could do the measurement without the attenuator. The tolerance issue disappears then. Hope that helps! 👍
@@MechanicMindset i agree 200mv to 500mv is acceptable,even with no attenuator . In the ' real world ' , at the workshops, it is not a problem at all🤣
Hi , Darren! Attenuator 100:1 for diesel injector will be OK ?
Hey! 20:1 is fine. 20V x20 make you good for 400V. Solenoid diesel around 50V, piezo between 100-200V depending 👍
@@MechanicMindset AC or DC voltage, it's doesn't matter?
@@alexorlov7737 The injectors are DC; most voltages on a car are DC 👍
@@MechanicMindset Thank you very much!
I have a Ford 460- 7.5 liter engine in my motorhome. It has bank injection, where 4 injectors are fired at the same time. It is a V-8 engine. And it fires the 4 corner cylinders at the same time and then the 4 middle cylinders..It is not sequential injectors..So I wonder how that will look on the scope..And How can I test the injectors individually ..
Interesting, I’ve not come across this system but I am aware of it. You should be able to test them individually with an amp clamp; check the wire at the injector. I have another video after this for injector current 👍
@@MechanicMindset What I was thinking to test each injector is to remove the wire harness from the injector..Make a test harness that has the plug that fits the injector..2 wires to it..
12 volts+ and then just touch the ground as quickly as possible..I would not be able to create a 2-5ms ground time as the computer can make, but maybe 100ms with just a quick tap of the neg wire to ground and see what the wave form looks like ..
If I used the amp clamp, wouldn't that measure the whole, all 4 ,injectors..??
Looking seriously at the 2204 and 2205..About 100 dollars difference here in the States..
@@MichaelJohnson-cm4wp That would work for the voltage. You’d be surprised how quick you could activate it.
Yes, measure with clamp at injector will only measure that one; measure with amp clamp at fuse where all the wires join you’ll measure them all.
Parallel circuit 👍
Hey what is the best budget scope for a new tech
Check this out. Pico 2204A; because once you like it you can upgrade and carry over your learning czcams.com/video/A0wwhPJNDKk/video.html
Okay thanks man
And you do diesel injector diagnosis , thanks
Hi, sure. I will look at diesel injectors in another video. Piezo or solenoid?
@@MechanicMindset piezo!
@@MechanicMindset piezo please
What was the difference between the blue and red graphs .
One is voltage, the other is current 👍
@@MechanicMindset Thank you even though i don't know enough about voltage and current i still enjoyed your video. You have a natural talent to explain things.
Check out the second part where we look at injector current! czcams.com/video/6yaox9b9M5A/video.html
Hello all, just wondering is that pulse width about 3ms?
I just can't see it too well
@@alanw5879 Yes it is 👍
@@MechanicMindset what's the highest pulse width you've seen on a 4-6cylinder Petro engine? I mean with no upgrades or tuning packages.
I only ask because I've been seeing some higher ones lately, I know the average is around 2.5ms, but I'm seeing real high numbers.
@@alanw5879 Ah ok. I’ll be honest, I can’t remember and I’ve never looked in to it. Sorry!
Im a total novice with this side of diagnostics. Im still stuck on the oscilloscope limit is 20v so why increase it upto 400v. Surely that would damage it.
This video might help explain 👍
czcams.com/video/eXiUQ1QjPFI/video.html
@@MechanicMindset It did thank you
what car was used?
Suzuki Swift 1.5L
Automotive Oscilloscope Masters training now live: www.mechanicmindset.com/oscilloscope-masters
The page can not be found😲
@@taskhunters5245 Thanks for raising, updates link 👍
@@MechanicMindset no wories mate.
I am getting in to scopes slowly. I have an old e30 with swap m50b25 from mix of e36 and e34😃 unfortunately for me the obd does not reply on it when i try to connect, therefore i will have to use scope to test mfs o2 coils ect and rhis channel has pop up. I have seen the vid where you were talking about common groind on 2204A and this will have to be addres and will have to remenber. In tje comments and on one of your other videos has been mentioned to use baterys ground as a safe way to use the scope. Will this be enough to prewent car or the scope issues?
Ill be looking at some other of your videos and then decide to go for a course i desire.
Thanks mate for all your input already👌
@@taskhunters5245 Cool! E36 engine with E34 sump right? 😬 I had a ton of E30s some years back; couple 318is, 325i, also had a 316i Estate with Hartge H27 full swap 😁 They are all gone now.
Yes, just always use the ground. It may be a simple problem for the communication, the early stuff just used a single wire. Might have been before OBD regulation though, what tool are you using to connect?
@@MechanicMindset
The tool i have used is an adapter to connect to old type obd. But i have no comunication at all I've tried few option by now.
Now my hope is to use scope and your help to get to know how to use it.
👍👏👏
Is this measured in AC?
Hi, this is measured in DC mode 👍
@@MechanicMindset thanks for the info! very informative video btw, keep it up!
@@pyrorenegade4983 Cheers! Glad you’re enjoying the channel!