Music links for those interested (current as of Jan/30/2018) Wim playing Chopin on a period piano czcams.com/video/AhlyRrZzkTU/video.html Wim's Well Tempered Clavier series (still ongoing) czcams.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWUol-RL_afcLg4Eyd2G7sV7.html Playlist of Wim's Beethoven playing czcams.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWWBRcIS328l5aQd8PkzmO61.html Wim playing Mozart czcams.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWXP9ml6qsDt1bMv7QFpvbaM.html Videos of Wim's pianoforte currently still under construction, a copy of a Viennese Fritz c. 1816. Wim is planning to do a Beethoven sonata cycle and more on this piano once it's finished! czcams.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWVmL5HeEuF-LemxgtOC3RLH.html Works from Pachelbel's Hexachordum Apollinis. Wim is releasing a CD/vinyl recording this April of the Hex. czcams.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWUS09cafZvhZCR-1k8OhZm-.html Wim's also releasing a big Vinyl box/CD set of Bach's Partitas later this year. Check his Partitas out here (the upcoming release will be a whole new recording) czcams.com/video/gE-0Ux1PYiU/video.html At last, a full playlist of Wim and Gadient exploring the tempo issue, for those interested czcams.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWU1zXuo_Qx-YrCCtaJcBiPO.html Cheers :)
I very much like how you present Czerny in the context of his influence on Chopin. You're right, relatively less people know that Czerny was held in high esteem both before and after Chopin's lifetime (in fact, I believe Czerny even raised funds to have Beethoven buried in a respectful way). This was clearly an important individual in the context of the Classical and Romantic musical periods. I really appreciate your lecture.
Your channel is a true goldmine, the type of content I've been looking for. Really changed my way of seeing the 19th century musical landscape after watching a few of your videos!
Hi, Wim, I just this day discovered your fantastic channel. As a piano teacher and trained musicologist (Northwestern Univ. 1970s) I have always felt as you do that tempos for most Classical music have become way too fast to be musical. I originally thought that this was merely a personal bias. Since I was not a piano performance major but a mere historian I figured I just didn't have the "chops" to play the repertoire at the "proper" tempo. Since I retired seven years ago I have, for the first time since college, been able to devote hours a day to practicing and studying Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Chopin, etc. This intense study has only strengthened my musical instinct re. tempo. I was very happy when I first listened to your videos to find that I am not alone; that there was someone else who agreed with what I had always felt and was working to find the proof! Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
The problem is - an ambiguous aim in the title. It can either mean 1) I will focus on actual music FC played, and show you what was special about his interpretation of JSB. or 2) I will explain how FC’s career in music interacted/entangled with what JSB wrote. The first question is for interested amateurs, the second for musicologists and budding professionals! We amateurs were thus looking for music which was never going to eventuate, and felt cheated by our misinterpretation of the aim in the title.
So, put simply (and if I have understood correctly...) the dotted crotchet 92 given by Czerny, and by extension Chopin, implies an actual tempo, for one bar, of approximately half the speed i.e. 46 dotted crotchets per minute? I was reading a paper by Robert Marshall recently (from 2008) and basically it asserts an 'ordinary' tempo for a 3/8 piece (with prevailing 16th notes) to be within the parameters of 40-c.53 dotted crotchets per minute. This would tie in exactly with Czerny's tempo. (I say 'ordinary' tempo, meaning a first point of reference. Should there be shorter or longer note values used, or the harmonic rhythm is shorter or longer, the tempo would be modified one way or the other.) Fascinating stuff!
This is very very interesting. Not being a pianist, I had never linked Chopin with Bach until today. Now, all is clear. I feel stupid that I'd never seen this before. I believe that Czerny collaborated with Chopin to help create one of the most amazing pieces ever. The Hexameron for 6 pianos & orchestra, such a shame this work is so rarely performed.
I found this gem, unknown to me at www.bach-cantatas.com/NVD/PT-Chopin-F.htm Fugue in A minor, for piano by Chopin. Duration: 2:40 min Publisher: Peters International Published: 1898 B. 144 KKIVc/2 1840-1841 Even though Chopin always gave the highest appreciation to J.S. Bach, he did not devote to this classical form without any modification. Chopin did not have a fugue part after each prelude in his series of preludes Op.28. This unique Fugue has two voices. Unlike Robert Schumann or Felix Mendelssohn who was obsessed with fugue usage in piano quintets and symphonies, Chopin attempted this only fugue to pay homage to J.S. Bach, not to promote or develop it into another stage. However, Chopin's fugue was less structured and more melodic like in F. Mendelssohn's and other post-classical's fugues. Source: Chopin, The Poet of Piano: Music Analysis: Fantasias, Fugue, Funeral March, Galop Marquis This simple piece composed by Chopin in circa 1840 to 1841 is what many musicians consider as Chopin's only fugue that he wrote in his lifetime, and that the fugue was Chopin's homage to J.S. Bach after finding J.S. Bach's 48 Preludes and Fugues enjoyable. Chopin was an admirer of J.S. Bach, apparently intending the work as an exercise. The work contains a hidden BACH motif in mesasure 12:"
Hi Ray, I can help you with that, you might want to see this video then: czcams.com/video/fAx1Rkn6HUE/video.html (and more is coming on the subject). Best wishes, Wim
You do hear a few samples of the speaker's music, to be fair. I think what is more valuable about this video is how the speaker is presenting a perspective on Chopin that would sincerely require hours of research. He is serving as a musical historian, helping others to reproduce as closely as possible Chopin's music in the way it was originally performed (we must remember that no recordings exist of Chopin playing his music from that time. In fact, we scarcely have photographs of Chopin). P.S. not to be hurtful or anything, though you can always click a new 'tab in your browser and listen to virtually any Chopin opus, simultaneously.
Unfortunately I only read your comment after listening to 5 minutes of blabber. Thanks anyway. Someone should really tell this Authenticsound guy to stop blathering.
I like your presentations very much, they are really inspiring. I learned a lot about the sources you presented, and I very like that you find so many very interesting stuff! I found here wonderfull how Chopin respected Czerny. I also discovered that many other WTC editions are based on the Czerny one, even including that of Bartók (which I like very much, because he is giving a full formal analysis with the phrasing signs). I do not share your views about the tempi however. Let's not forget that there is tradition: for example, Czerny demonstrated the tempi (that HE himself intended in his editions) to Liszt and Leschetizky for example, who tought the same tempi (more or less) to Thomán (teacher of Bartók, Dohnányi and others), and Padarewski, Schnabel etc. So Schnabel tempi are two steps in tradition from the Czerny tempi, his teacher learned it from Czerny himself (and also gave a concert withg Mozart's son, etc); Bartók tempi are three steps distance. These great interpreteurs must have known about that the tempi has to be halved at least in some cases. This is a kind of very important information that cannot disappear in 2 generations, and in all schools. And let's not forget, Bartók in his WTC edition still mostly follows Czerny. In cases, he slows down the tempi a little (10%), in few cases, slows down by 50% roughly (Prelude B flat major, WTC1 - still very fast in Bartók's tempo), and in many cases, literally preserves the Czerny tempi (b flat minor WTC1 eg). The fugue of this b flat minor piece is in quater=120, and has no verbal tempo indication in the Czerny edition. Bartók copies the quater=120 tempo, and adds the tempo indication "Lento"! So it is not a problem that qu=120 is not an Allegro, but a Lento; the character of the music is _still_ lento-ish in this tempo of this piece. (Note that the tempo that people play today, beginning with Richter, Yudina etc. is very slow, around qu=70, but this is in a big contradiction to how Chopin, Liszt, Bartók played this piece and how they were inspired by this!) Since Batrók was a rigorous metronome guy, I just cannot imagine that his "Lento (qu=120)" indication would mean qu=60 instead. It is qu=120. You can hear his performance, his own pieces and other composers, and always reads the metronome numbers in our traditional way (and still plays a bit more faster usually). So I think the early metronome numbers can (mostly) be taken seriously, and still think that people really played _this_ fast (also recall the fastly played Haydn menuett of the clockwork that you presented, and was an astonishingly interesting presentation to me). We seem to be a bit farther from "how Chopin played Bach", but may be only virtually: I bet that Chopin played Bach fast, according to the "traditionally" red metronome numbers of Czerny, and so did Brahms, Liszt, Schumann etc. (Also note that Chopin's Preludes are also very fast.)
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! As pointed out several times, and in today's video I'll do it again, the tradition was not kept by copying the style of the teachers, but building upon it, following the stream of the 'improvements'. That generation of around 1900 destroyed (in our eyes) historical buildings by 'improving' their style while at the same time being proud of keeping the tradition alive; They had something else in mind than we do. They even demolished Bach house in Leipzig, so be careful to assume these traditional lines that in fact never existed (and still do not exist: Jos van Immerseel does not play like Flor Peeters...)
Thank you for your response! I think the main question here is not the "style" but how to read the score. Which is more about information, and has less to do with the taste, and can be more preserved. Even this C sharp major Prelude you show in this video is played in the "today's widespred" tempo around qu=55 or so (or at least as now I am hearing it inside) and there is the Czerny tempo indication, almost about two times faster. But on the other side, Czerny says that he follows the tempi of Beethoven, and people hearing Beethoven playing all say that he played everything much faster than his contemporaries. For me, qu=46 would not be the "wah, this IS fast" tempo for this prelude, and qu=92 would really be. So may be Czerny's 92 is a real 92 here. (And there may be examples where the tempi has to be slowed down, because of the things you are saying in many videos, but I do not think this was absolutely general...) Anyways, I really like your research around the tempi and all your historical work (which I followed since this spring), so you can account me to your "fan club". :)
Great video. Most people - even many pianists - are unaware of Bach’s influence on Chopin and what a conservative composer he was. Many pieces are so Bachman - the 4th Etude, the 1st and 3rd Preludes, etc Enjoy your research and videos. I’d love to see Chopin hearing Gould.
Interesting. Performance practice of Bach is so diverse these days that you can only wonder what Bach himself would make of it all. None of the 19th century composers have are performed with such wide tempo margins as Bach. Maybe this because Bach's music stands almost impervious to such extremes. You hear Gould who often takes quite extreme approaches be it slow or fast. Or maybe Wolfgang Rubsam's lovely rubato phrasing. If it is played with a musical sensibility it is convincing regardless of tempo. Czerny or otherwise. Thank goodness we have Urtext editions these days.
Found this tidbit in an article on Performing Bach's WTC, "By Beethoven's day a new way of playing the fugues had taken hold. As Matthew Dirst shows in his forthcoming The Iconic Bach, this Beethovenian style suited concert performance - something Bach probably didn't envision for the WTC - by emphasizing the main entries of fugue themes in a dramatic way (as Bach probably didn't). Beethoven used the full range of expressive devices available on then-modern fortepianos."
Interesting. I haven't seen those elements of change though myself, but that's not saying they weren't there. Certainly the way Bach played the fugues will forever by a mystery. Mozart however once wrote similar performance guidances for fugues to his sister, so that brings us already deeper in the 18th c. We keep diving :)
In an April 10, 1782 letter to his father, Leopold, Mozart wrote, “I go to the house of Baron Van Suiten [Swieten, Emmanuel Bach's Patron] every Sunday at 10 o’clock and nothing is played there but Händel and Bach. I am making a collection of Bach’s fugues, those of Sebastian as well as Emanuel and Friedman [Mozart knew of the Bach family well enough to know the middle names that family and friends referred to the respective family members].-Also of Händel’s, and I don’t have those. I expect that you know that the ‘English Bach’ is dead? What a loss to the musical world!” Here is the letter from Mozart to his beloved sister for the benefit of your viewers: ''April 20, 1782: I composed the fugue first and wrote it down while I was thinking out the prelude. (my comment Prelude, some times called Fantasie, and Fugue in C Major, K 394). I only hope that you will be able to read it, for it is written so very small; and I hope further that you will like it. Another time I shall send you something better for the clavier. My dear Constanze is really the cause of this fugue’s coming into the world. Baron van Swieten, to whom I go every Sunday, gave me all the works of Händel and Sebastian Bach to take home with me (after I had played them to him). When Constanze heard the fugues, she absolutely fell in love with them. Now she will listen to nothing but fugues, and particularly (in this kind of composition) the works of Händel and Bach. Well, as she has often heard me play fugues out of my head, she asked me if I had ever written any down, and when I said I had not, she scolded me roundly for not recording some of my compositions in this most artistically beautiful of all musical forms and never ceased to entreat me until I wrote down a fugue for her. So this is its origin. I have purposely written above it, Andante Maestoso, as it must not be played too fast. For if a fugue is not played slowly, the ear cannot clearly distinguish the theme when it comes in, and consequently, the effect is entirely missed. When I get the time and opportunity, I will make another five and deliver them to Baron van Suiten; because I have to say, he really owns, while admittedly very small in quantity, but in regard to quality, a very great treasure of good music. And therefore, I ask you to promise me not to take back your promise, and let no man see them. Learn them by heart and play them. A fugue is not so easy to play after only hearing it. - If father has not yet had the works of Eberlin (Johann Ernst Eberlin, possibly the 9 Toccatas with Fugues for organ, imslp.org/wiki/9_Toccatas_and_Fugues_(Eberlin%2C_Johann_Ernst)) copied, then I would be very pleased- - I have gotten hold of them and - because I could no longer remember that, with a closer look, they are far too trivial, and truthfully, do not deserve a place beside Händel and Bach..." E Power Biggs included a piece by J E Eberlin in his A treasury of shorter organ classics collection, which I once possessed but gave away as a gift. E Power Biggs was a major force in the 1940's-1950's in the HIP movement (although not called such) and was involved in playing historical or historical based instruments. When Biggs was growing up, the frequently held opinion was the Organ works of J S Bach finally found the perfect instrument as played on the Organs of Aristide Cavaillé-Coll, the Symphonic Organs built in the 19th century. which an analogy to the J S Bach keyboard works only sound at their best on the Piano, a oft repeated opinion which has become an entrenched tradition. From wikipedia, (for what it's worth) Johann Ernst Eberlin (27 March 1702 - 19 June 1762) was a German composer and organist whose works bridge the baroque and classical eras. He was a prolific composer, chiefly of church organ and choral music. Marpurg claims he wrote as much and as rapidly as Alessandro Scarlatti and Georg Philipp Telemann, (a claim also repeated by Leopold Mozart, my comment L. Mozart moved to Salzburg in 1737 before starting his musical career in 1740 as violinist and organist) although ultimately Eberlin did not live nearly as long as either of those two composers. Eberlin's first breakthrough was in 1727 when he became the organist for Count Leopold von Firmian (then Archbishop of Salzburg). He reached the peak of his career when he was the organist for Archbishop Andreas Jakob von Dietrichstein. By 1749 he held the posts of Hof- und Domkapellmeister (Court and Cathedral chapel master) simultaneously, an achievement which his successors Michael Haydn, Leopold Mozart, and Wolfgang Mozart himself were not to match. Despite Mozart's father Leopold's great opinion of Eberlin, and having sent the young Mozart some of Eberlin's best known works, his keyboard pieces, the young Mozart later tired of them (wikipedia references the above letter which contradicts wikipedia's article).
Sadly, a lot of what he says would be clearer if he just made his points more succinctly, and more clearly instead of jumping back and forth, repeating what he said moments beofre and then making the same point again in a different way. Point 1. Chopin copied Czerny's metronome marks. (2) Cxerny was respected. (3) Some of the metronome markings are too fast to play. -So where does that leave us????. I still have no idea idea how Choping played Bach.
Dear Sir, This is absolutely wonderful. I am thrilled by your passion and enthralled by this inside knowledge of key figures of music history and this mid 19th century period performance practice. Absolutely fascinating. Sincerely, A Fellow Musician
Can imagine, of course I made over a 150 music recordings, but here it would be a welcome addition. End of May, the fortepiano will be here, and that will allow me to expand
As I've said before, your theories and ideas are correct. Your critics can hang on to their beliefs as long as they want. History will prove right right. Your work is of great importance.
Thanks Tristan, I wish I had three days in one... how cool would it be to have musicians on this channel helping demonstrating all of this, it's an idea that we're working on!
Before the advent of wax rolls, vinyl, CDs, MP3s, etc. people were the instrument for duplication of pieces of music. And therefore teachers and publications would be precise about how a piece needed to be played. A similar development occurred in portrait painting. After the advent of photography, personal interpretations by the artists took off.
In the early 19th century polish musicians, and we know Chopin too - imported scores mostly from Vienna and Berlin. That's why Chopin was so familiar with music of Hummel and stille brilliant. So that almost sure that in his early years he had and played from the Czerny edition of DWK.
By definition that would be impossible...:). i have made several videos on tempo, with digital examples as well, here's one you'll find interesting I guess: czcams.com/video/fAx1Rkn6HUE/video.html
I think the headline is a misnomer. We don't talk about how Chopin played, but rather how he possibly did NOT play and only tempo is considered. However, Wim's passion is contagious. You can hear him play (not in the metronome markings he talks about) here: czcams.com/video/AhlyRrZzkTU/video.html
Fascinating. Ok, I'm confused by your concluding comments about metronome tempi. If Czerny knew Beethoven's speeds with Bach's music, then how could he have transmitted metronome indications which you say are unplayably fast? You imply that we have either failed to understand what Czerny is saying or you imply that he was crazy with his tempi markings. I just can't figure it out. What? Beethoven zoomed through Bach faster than Mark Andre Hamelin could rip up the keys? Or, Beethoven played at a sane tempo and somehow Czerny has made an error? I can't figure it out.
Hi Fred, I'll give you a video to start with, think about it this way: the metronome ticks back and forth and both together were considered as one count. So basically those metronome marks make total sense (as the other thousands early 19th c. metronome marks), if you take them metrical. So quarter note 120 is every eight note a tick in 120MM. Here is a video to start: czcams.com/video/2yd7LWi4wus/video.html
Ok, so I watched it for the 2'nd time. What I think I concluded is that an idea of "half time" appears to approximate or best describe a tempo marking that otherwise would result in ridiculous speeds. I was confused by your comment in the video above by what Czerny said about Beethoven's performance speeds. I suppose that these days most performers will adopt a speed that "feels" right. This would be a projection of the performers aesthetics. I am always reminded of Gould's speeds on some of the Mozart works and of course he knew perfectly well how to play them as if he was Wilhelm Kempf. He purposefully went out of his way to play at twice the tempo, mostly to shock his listeners. He knew that it was just ridiculous and he was highly amused by the reactions. What speed Beethoven would have played the WTC, I just don't have a grasp. I can't quite figure it out.
I couldn't help but smile when I read a lot of the comments. Apparently the opinionated are not relegated to the rock genre...ie: who is the best guitarist. Like or dislike Gould, he was a formidable figure in classical music.
he was... imagine he would have lived a few years longer. if there is one thing I would be allowed to change, is to install a listening culture in which an artist is not judged on how much he/she corresponds with the listening habits/opinions of the listener, but on the musical story that is being reveled. Though I do have the impression that more and more people are in for this.
Hi Paul, it's called Tempus Inaequalis, i demonstrate this from time to time, but here is a video with Lorenz on the topic: czcams.com/video/d4Ke5nvftZg/video.html&index=9&list=PLackZ_5a6IWU1zXuo_Qx-YrCCtaJcBiPO
Fascinating, thanks for the lecture. Would love to hear Chopin on clavichord with some octave rearrangements to account for range. I tried some easy Chopin on harpsichord which sounds good to me.
Thank you very much for these interesting videos. You talk a lot about the topic tempo im music. This is actually for me the most interesting topic now. I would like to lead an interesting conversation with you about this topic. By the way, I hear from your accent something russian. Do you speak russian? Where are you from? I noticed from your video, that you also speak german? I am from germany and I am a biggest fan of J. S. Bach. I am a musician,too. I would be very thankful, if I get an answer from you. Thanks.
BTW, I am totally amazed that you were a lover of Chopin in your younger days. We can't remove Chopin from the standard repertoire. Far too important and despite all the negativity that Gould heaped on Chopin, I and millions of others enjoy playing him and listening to his tunes.
Gould did record a single Chopin sonata, so judge for yourself: czcams.com/video/UYUpTgl5VQM/video.html Apparently he was also a great admirer of Robert Casadesus's recording of the same sonata.
I guess the tradition of polemic buffoonery stretches back quite a long way, from Mozart calling Clementi a charlatan, to Leonhardt (furthest from a "clown" I know!) refusing to play Handel because he was not the "best", then. And some could argue that being stylistically informed isn't always a prerequisite to making a valid interpretation -- think Vaughan Williams conducting the St. Matthew passion. I've always found the discussions surrounding Gould's playing, and the surprising vehemence of his defenders or detractors, to be interesting. Reactions to a performance tell us more about the listener than about the performance itself.
Very surprised to learn that Chopin extensively used the metronome. This has great relevance regarding the question of rubato. Lizst famously said that rubato should only happen within the measure. If Chopin played his own music to the beat of a ticking metronome the rubato would have to take place within a constant beat. We just do not hear Chopin played that way today.
This proves one of my points: that Czerny is undervalued! People dismiss his student works as a series of exercises that have to be overcome while moving up the piano technique ladder. However compare them with any other similar opus and it should be clear to anyone with a modicum of musicality that they are so much more. I for one have spent endless hours on his opus 139 which is afill with little musical gems!
Hello my name is clavizzao and I was trying to get some information about the clavichord I found out recently my family and ancestors name came from this is there anything you can tell me about it I would appreciate it thank you
How would you interpret the metronome marking in the example in this video (dotted quarter = 92) in the double beat theory? I also wonder about other pieces in compound meter, such as the F major prelude from book 1. I’m also curious about your opinion on the marking on the C major fugue from book 1 as to why Czerny would mark an eighth note on a piece Bach wrote in 4/4. Does the double best also apply here? Thanks for your videos!
Allow me to reply with some videos: on the 3:2 thing, there is this video: czcams.com/video/d4Ke5nvftZg/video.html (in that playlist right before there is another one on that topic), and on Czerny Bach: yes, you need to read them metrical, the 4/4 is one thing, the notation is the second layer of importance, with harmonic structure that goes over the 'common' use of 4/4, here is a vid on that that I need to redo soon : czcams.com/video/fAx1Rkn6HUE/video.html&list=PLackZ_5a6IWVP1Nb_Zxr-RfFHX62Nz9iQ&index=7
Great video ,but i would have expected a proposal of a Chopin rendition in your view.Somehow.Like get into some phrasing etc.as you reed it on the scores you have.Anyway it was very interesting and instructive.To say the least.
Thanks Adrian, today I'll have Chopin on my clavichord (...), but that's not really an experiment with Bach. I have a video though where you'll find some aspects and make a new one next Wednesday. here's the 'old' one: czcams.com/video/fAx1Rkn6HUE/video.html
well, it put you on the way of trying to understand what impacted Chopin for his Bach interpretation. It's obvious I'd say the title has not the claim of knowing how Chopin exactly played, nobody really knows, but it shapes the context.
Czerny's preface does refer to some of his tempi being "exceedingly rapid". To speak purely in terms of aesthetics, I have found that some of Czerny's slurrings and articulations only make sense in his rapid tempi-the C sharp major prelude is a prime example...Interesting that the Chopin copy doesn't reproduce those marks!
+Nick Williams You should try the Czerny tempi once, also the original ones of the inventions and sinfonias (they were changed in later editions without mentioning). Most of the fast mov. make no sense in single beat or are impossible to play but work great in double beat. Chopin did copy Czerny's mm marks! Best wishes, Wim
I think the case of Chopin's op10 no1 potentially provides some good circumstantial evidence for your double beat theory being correct. Some performers can play it at the stated 176 tempo (single beat) - though for most it's more like 152/164 - but without exception, they all lose the accents on the first note of each set of sixteenth notes, instead producing a uniform torrent of notes. I doubt that it's really possible for anyone to play these accents meaningfully at the full tempo if interpreted as single beat.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts here Stuart. I'm working slowly on some of the opus 10/1 - on the Erard now. e.g. the f minor (10/9), has these 16th quintols at the end, no ritard. mentioned, is also a very good clue.
Some further thoughts on this, after trying a few of these at the piano. (I'm not Chopin scholar by any means and not familiar with the sources, so take this with a pinch of salt.) Interpreting the tempos as double beat (i.e. equivalent to 88 for op10 no1, 72 for op10 no2, 50 for op10 no3 etc), it does seem that these are a *little* too slow to make musical sense. I also agree that it's absurd to claim that the composers themselves are somehow getting the metronome numbers wrong in a systematic fashion. But do we have any clear knowledge of how the metronome numbers exactly arrived in the proofs? I've seen one person (here: www.angelalear.com/interpretingchopin/interpretingchopin/the_etudes.html ) claim that the original Chopin manuscripts contain very few metronome numbers and that those that appear in the first editions are often additions by other parties (the publisher, the copyist, Chopin's sister?). If so, is it possible that these other people are getting it wrong and e.g. Chopin is perhaps simply not reading the proofs with attention? Or not seeing the proofs? Certainly Czerny's studies sound perfectly sensible when played at the double beat tempo, which provides good evidence for the double beat theory for Czerny - but in the case of Chopin, the "musically sensible" tempos seem somewhere between those given by either a single beat or double beat interpretation - closer to those given in my Edition Peters copy of 104 for op10no1, 108 for op10 no2, and 60 for op10 no3 (where presumably the editors have ignored the MMs on the first edition and gone with what sounds good/what they think sounds good).
We cannot use Czerny's metronome markings from one Century later to prove Bach as a "double-beater" - It makes no sense. Apart from the fact 92 dotted crotchets per minutes still are feasible on modern pianos, let alone on the much lighter, faster-action historical ones (same goes for clavichords and harpsichords as well), as Fritz Rotschild demonstrated in his masterful volume "The Lost Tradition in Music" up until Bach's times (mid-18th Century) a Piece written in crotchets, quavers and semiquavers like the one analyzed in the video, Prelude and Fugue n.3 in C sharp major from the First Volume of the Well-Tempered Clavier, should have been played at a moderately fast pace: so, Czerny's metronomes are for sure a bit too fast; but for sure we cannot draw the conclusion we have to half the speed! Also, having in mind Vivaldi's violin concertos (and Bach was a fervent admirer of him, drawing lots of influence from his Music), the Piece in question is written in quite a similar way, and as such we should have also in mind how a violinist, or any string player indeed, would approach such a Piece: to fit those semiquavers sextuplets while making all of the notes "speaking" you'll need a moderately fast tempo, not so fast as to get a rushed, confused sound, but not as slow and dragged to even not having enough bow for a whole sextuplet: Bach would have probably played this Piece not as fast as Czerny wrote in his edition, but for sure not at "double-beat" speeds! It not even would be musical...
Absolutely we can. I'm not talking on Bach's tempi, but the tempi as taken by Beethoven/Czerny. And you may have noticed I have several of those 'light' instruments ... only people who've never played on those (really) make such claims. You point to Rotschild, well, he is not far from what I'm saying in this video
@@AuthenticSound Problem is, as proved in the same volume, Bach still had a certain tradition in regard, but still it was being lost yet at his time, and we cannot project the categories and practices a composer from the Renaissance (the "Old Tradition" Bach still had his roots into) had into Czerny and Chopin: if Bach yet was one of the very last bystander of one certain Tradition, how can we use him as a reference point for composers having lived one Century later? Also, while as a "rule-of-thumb" the shorter the values, the slower the tempo might have a validity in the "Old Tradition" and as such to play Bach and contemporaries, we absolutely cannot say the same holds true for 19th-Century Music. And basing researches on Czerny's revision of the "Wohltemperierte Clavier" is at very least disputable, it represents the way Music from the past was perceived at a time when the idea of fidelity to its intention wasn't such a priority.
Well, I suppose seen the fact that he copied every tiny bit of information, even cresc etc, I believe chances are really big he accepted Czerny as an authority. people were less individual than we are today, and Czerny was a giant name at the time.
If you listen to Paul Barton's recording on CZcams, he plays Prelude III in C sharp major at exactly Czerny's tempo, dotted crotchet = 92. Im not saying this is the correct or best speed to play it at, but it's certainly possible. czcams.com/video/vGdV4mJhaKU/video.html
I had hoped you would demonstrate it, not just talked about it. Chopin felt a pianist should play Bach as a daily routine. He also said that the left hand should be extremely regular and the right could float a bit relative to that, in time. As many music formats then and before were named after dances - mazurka, waltz - I feel pianists should consult with musicians performing to dancers about the latters' reaction to not being on time like a metronome.
What Chopin meant was the 18th century meaning of rubato: where you had a long ornament, not in strict mathematical devision, but with figures containing 9,11,... notes per count, that gives the impression of playing in two movements (which is actually very difficult indeed), you'll find that also in Beethoven, even in Mozart it starts. You'll find some sound examples in this video (and I'll make new ones): czcams.com/video/fAx1Rkn6HUE/video.html
This guy is Brilliant. Without English subtitles, I have no idea what he's saying, because his accent is so strong. But to think that he's not a native English speaker, and contrives such complex sentences in English with such aplomb, along with no self-conscientiousness for his lack of pronunciation prowess, is in itself amazing. Combine that with his advanced knowledge of the historical context in which the classical composers intertwined their careers, and experiences with each others' music, and this monologue is nothing short of brilliant. I can't wait 'til I hear him play an example of Chopin's expression of Bach's playing.
+dwiedemann thanks for watching and sorry I let you down with my English. You're the first who tells me he cannot understand my Euro speak. I guess I'll have to work harder! best, Wim
I certainly will Mirec, certainly when the pianoforte is here, that sonata still works on my clavichord, but really on the edge, it is a beautiful work, with a notation that can be said so much about
Hello wim just thought I’d write to you. I subscribed to your channel months ago. I just thought I’d tell you I’m interested in your double beat theory. I’m not a musicologist or historian. And from your videos I genuinly personality wise differ from you. I’m messy lol But my 2 cents. I’m not big into classical music. I come from a traditional Irish music family. My musical influences are really from early rock music in the 50s 60s Also from the grunge movement of the 90s specifically Kurt cobain I think you would find him a curious person his ideas on music. But from an amateur I find you very interesting. And for what it’s worth for classical music your one of my favorite performers I have a lot of anxiety. So it is a challenge for me to concentrate and listen to anything. And like I said my musical interests are in pop or rock and roll I actually own a clavichord. Anyway I’d love a chance to talk with you someday I hope you read this
Music links for those interested (current as of Jan/30/2018)
Wim playing Chopin on a period piano
czcams.com/video/AhlyRrZzkTU/video.html
Wim's Well Tempered Clavier series (still ongoing)
czcams.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWUol-RL_afcLg4Eyd2G7sV7.html
Playlist of Wim's Beethoven playing czcams.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWWBRcIS328l5aQd8PkzmO61.html
Wim playing Mozart czcams.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWXP9ml6qsDt1bMv7QFpvbaM.html
Videos of Wim's pianoforte currently still under construction, a copy of a Viennese Fritz c. 1816. Wim is planning to do a Beethoven sonata cycle and more on this piano once it's finished! czcams.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWVmL5HeEuF-LemxgtOC3RLH.html
Works from Pachelbel's Hexachordum Apollinis. Wim is releasing a CD/vinyl recording this April of the Hex. czcams.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWUS09cafZvhZCR-1k8OhZm-.html
Wim's also releasing a big Vinyl box/CD set of Bach's Partitas later this year. Check his Partitas out here (the upcoming release will be a whole new recording) czcams.com/video/gE-0Ux1PYiU/video.html
At last, a full playlist of Wim and Gadient exploring the tempo issue, for those interested czcams.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWU1zXuo_Qx-YrCCtaJcBiPO.html
Cheers :)
I very much like how you present Czerny in the context of his influence on Chopin. You're right, relatively less people know that Czerny was held in high esteem both before and after Chopin's lifetime (in fact, I believe Czerny even raised funds to have Beethoven buried in a respectful way). This was clearly an important individual in the context of the Classical and Romantic musical periods. I really appreciate your lecture.
Your channel is a true goldmine, the type of content I've been looking for. Really changed my way of seeing the 19th century musical landscape after watching a few of your videos!
Authentic Sound, your passion is infectious.
Great to read, thank you so much!
Hi, Wim, I just this day discovered your fantastic channel. As a piano teacher and trained musicologist (Northwestern Univ. 1970s) I have always felt as you do that tempos for most Classical music have become way too fast to be musical. I originally thought that this was merely a personal bias. Since I was not a piano performance major but a mere historian I figured I just didn't have the "chops" to play the repertoire at the "proper" tempo. Since I retired seven years ago I have, for the first time since college, been able to devote hours a day to practicing and studying Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Chopin, etc. This intense study has only strengthened my musical instinct re. tempo. I was very happy when I first listened to your videos to find that I am not alone; that there was someone else who agreed with what I had always felt and was working to find the proof! Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
That is great to read Patrick, and nice to know you! Don't hesitate to share elements of your findings on the channel or, through mail
Chopin memorized the entire Well Tempered Clavier.In the Romantic era, one was viewed as an odd fish if one said that he liked Bach's music.
I like how youtube's subtitles always makes your "Chopin" as "Japan" lol.
:-) Must shoot a remake of this video with some sound examples
Love this channel - so glad to have come across it! Brilliant to hear a specialist who's so passionate freely sharing information :)
Thank you so much, great to read and welcome here!
I agree! Please know your information AND your playing ability is VERY much appreciated, sir!
It is a terrible death to be talked to death.
I learn so many new things every time I watch your videos.
That's what energizes me, great to read, Matthew.
The problem is - an ambiguous aim in the title. It can either mean 1) I will focus on actual music FC played, and show you what was special about his interpretation of JSB. or 2) I will explain how FC’s career in music interacted/entangled with what JSB wrote. The first question is for interested amateurs, the second for musicologists and budding professionals! We amateurs were thus looking for music which was never going to eventuate, and felt cheated by our misinterpretation of the aim in the title.
Excellent.
Interesting to see how metronome markings have affected music since Chopin's time
So, put simply (and if I have understood correctly...) the dotted crotchet 92 given by Czerny, and by extension Chopin, implies an actual tempo, for one bar, of approximately half the speed i.e. 46 dotted crotchets per minute?
I was reading a paper by Robert Marshall recently (from 2008) and basically it asserts an 'ordinary' tempo for a 3/8 piece (with prevailing 16th notes) to be within the parameters of 40-c.53 dotted crotchets per minute. This would tie in exactly with Czerny's tempo. (I say 'ordinary' tempo, meaning a first point of reference. Should there be shorter or longer note values used, or the harmonic rhythm is shorter or longer, the tempo would be modified one way or the other.)
Fascinating stuff!
This is very very interesting. Not being a pianist, I had never linked Chopin with Bach until today. Now, all is clear. I feel stupid that I'd never seen this before. I believe that Czerny collaborated with Chopin to help create one of the most amazing pieces ever. The Hexameron for 6 pianos & orchestra, such a shame this work is so rarely performed.
Hi David, yes that's true, with Moscheles! Changing perspective only a bit is opening such wonderful new insights. Fascinating!
I found this gem, unknown to me at www.bach-cantatas.com/NVD/PT-Chopin-F.htm
Fugue in A minor, for piano by Chopin.
Duration: 2:40 min
Publisher: Peters International
Published: 1898
B. 144
KKIVc/2
1840-1841
Even though Chopin always gave the highest appreciation to J.S. Bach, he did not devote to this classical form without any modification. Chopin did not have a fugue part after each prelude in his series of preludes Op.28. This unique Fugue has two voices. Unlike Robert Schumann or Felix Mendelssohn who was obsessed with fugue usage in piano quintets and symphonies, Chopin attempted this only fugue to pay homage to J.S. Bach, not to promote or develop it into another stage. However, Chopin's fugue was less structured and more melodic like in F. Mendelssohn's and other post-classical's fugues.
Source: Chopin, The Poet of Piano: Music Analysis: Fantasias, Fugue, Funeral March, Galop Marquis
This simple piece composed by Chopin in circa 1840 to 1841 is what many musicians consider as Chopin's only
fugue that he wrote in his lifetime, and that the fugue was Chopin's homage to J.S. Bach after finding J.S. Bach's 48 Preludes and Fugues enjoyable. Chopin was an admirer of J.S. Bach, apparently intending the work as an exercise.
The work contains a hidden BACH motif in mesasure 12:"
Thanks for sharing, didn't know that!
For anyone tuning in hoping to hear some music: there is none.
Hi Ray, I can help you with that, you might want to see this video then: czcams.com/video/fAx1Rkn6HUE/video.html (and more is coming on the subject). Best wishes, Wim
Thank you for saving me time searching for the music, Ray. Huge disappointment. Music is about sound not talk.
You do hear a few samples of the speaker's music, to be fair. I think what is more valuable about this video is how the speaker is presenting a perspective on Chopin that would sincerely require hours of research. He is serving as a musical historian, helping others to reproduce as closely as possible Chopin's music in the way it was originally performed (we must remember that no recordings exist of Chopin playing his music from that time. In fact, we scarcely have photographs of Chopin). P.S. not to be hurtful or anything, though you can always click a new 'tab in your browser and listen to virtually any Chopin opus, simultaneously.
Unfortunately I only read your comment after listening to 5 minutes of blabber. Thanks anyway. Someone should really tell this Authenticsound guy to stop blathering.
He's giving an intelligent lecture about history. Go back to your Classical Music for Relaxation playlists if you don't like it.
Came across this channel by chance, but you've now got a new subscriber. Intriguing lecture!
So great to read, Christopher, and welcome here, looking forward to reading you in the future!
This channel is gold!
a better appreciation of what surrounded the Bach music from here. Thanks.
Thanks for watching, Tom!
I like your presentations very much, they are really inspiring. I learned a lot about the sources you presented, and I very like that you find so many very interesting stuff! I found here wonderfull how Chopin respected Czerny. I also discovered that many other WTC editions are based on the Czerny one, even including that of Bartók (which I like very much, because he is giving a full formal analysis with the phrasing signs).
I do not share your views about the tempi however. Let's not forget that there is tradition: for example, Czerny demonstrated the tempi (that HE himself intended in his editions) to Liszt and Leschetizky for example, who tought the same tempi (more or less) to Thomán (teacher of Bartók, Dohnányi and others), and Padarewski, Schnabel etc. So Schnabel tempi are two steps in tradition from the Czerny tempi, his teacher learned it from Czerny himself (and also gave a concert withg Mozart's son, etc); Bartók tempi are three steps distance. These great interpreteurs must have known about that the tempi has to be halved at least in some cases. This is a kind of very important information that cannot disappear in 2 generations, and in all schools.
And let's not forget, Bartók in his WTC edition still mostly follows Czerny. In cases, he slows down the tempi a little (10%), in few cases, slows down by 50% roughly (Prelude B flat major, WTC1 - still very fast in Bartók's tempo), and in many cases, literally preserves the Czerny tempi (b flat minor WTC1 eg). The fugue of this b flat minor piece is in quater=120, and has no verbal tempo indication in the Czerny edition. Bartók copies the quater=120 tempo, and adds the tempo indication "Lento"! So it is not a problem that qu=120 is not an Allegro, but a Lento; the character of the music is _still_ lento-ish in this tempo of this piece. (Note that the tempo that people play today, beginning with Richter, Yudina etc. is very slow, around qu=70, but this is in a big contradiction to how Chopin, Liszt, Bartók played this piece and how they were inspired by this!)
Since Batrók was a rigorous metronome guy, I just cannot imagine that his "Lento (qu=120)" indication would mean qu=60 instead. It is qu=120. You can hear his performance, his own pieces and other composers, and always reads the metronome numbers in our traditional way (and still plays a bit more faster usually).
So I think the early metronome numbers can (mostly) be taken seriously, and still think that people really played _this_ fast (also recall the fastly played Haydn menuett of the clockwork that you presented, and was an astonishingly interesting presentation to me).
We seem to be a bit farther from "how Chopin played Bach", but may be only virtually: I bet that Chopin played Bach fast, according to the "traditionally" red metronome numbers of Czerny, and so did Brahms, Liszt, Schumann etc. (Also note that Chopin's Preludes are also very fast.)
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! As pointed out several times, and in today's video I'll do it again, the tradition was not kept by copying the style of the teachers, but building upon it, following the stream of the 'improvements'. That generation of around 1900 destroyed (in our eyes) historical buildings by 'improving' their style while at the same time being proud of keeping the tradition alive; They had something else in mind than we do. They even demolished Bach house in Leipzig, so be careful to assume these traditional lines that in fact never existed (and still do not exist: Jos van Immerseel does not play like Flor Peeters...)
Thank you for your response! I think the main question here is not the "style" but how to read the score. Which is more about information, and has less to do with the taste, and can be more preserved. Even this C sharp major Prelude you show in this video is played in the "today's widespred" tempo around qu=55 or so (or at least as now I am hearing it inside) and there is the Czerny tempo indication, almost about two times faster. But on the other side, Czerny says that he follows the tempi of Beethoven, and people hearing Beethoven playing all say that he played everything much faster than his contemporaries. For me, qu=46 would not be the "wah, this IS fast" tempo for this prelude, and qu=92 would really be. So may be Czerny's 92 is a real 92 here. (And there may be examples where the tempi has to be slowed down, because of the things you are saying in many videos, but I do not think this was absolutely general...)
Anyways, I really like your research around the tempi and all your historical work (which I followed since this spring), so you can account me to your "fan club". :)
So grateful for having found this video and channel. Thank you for sharing such interesting topics with a passionate and humble attitude.
Another fascinating talk. Thanks, Wim.
Thanks Scott, great to have you here on the channel!
Who came here after seeing the songs name on the famous novel it and wanted to witnessed the scary atmosphere by listening to this music😂
5:10 "what are you doing? that's not how you play my nocturnes,you will never be able to play the études"
Great video. Most people - even many pianists - are unaware of Bach’s influence on Chopin and what a conservative composer he was. Many pieces are so Bachman - the 4th Etude, the 1st and 3rd Preludes, etc
Enjoy your research and videos. I’d love to see Chopin hearing Gould.
indeed, the 1st one one (C Major) is a kind of inverted version of the WTC 1 of Bach (also interesting to compare tempi here!)
Interesting. Performance practice of Bach is so diverse these days that you can only wonder what Bach himself would make of it all. None of the 19th century composers have are performed with such wide tempo margins as Bach. Maybe this because Bach's music stands almost impervious to such extremes. You hear Gould who often takes quite extreme approaches be it slow or fast. Or maybe Wolfgang Rubsam's lovely rubato phrasing. If it is played with a musical sensibility it is convincing regardless of tempo. Czerny or otherwise. Thank goodness we have Urtext editions these days.
Found this tidbit in an article on Performing Bach's WTC, "By Beethoven's day a new way of playing the fugues had taken hold. As Matthew Dirst shows in his forthcoming The Iconic Bach, this Beethovenian style suited concert performance - something Bach probably didn't envision for the WTC - by emphasizing the main entries of fugue themes in a dramatic way (as Bach probably didn't). Beethoven used the full range of expressive devices available on then-modern fortepianos."
Interesting. I haven't seen those elements of change though myself, but that's not saying they weren't there. Certainly the way Bach played the fugues will forever by a mystery. Mozart however once wrote similar performance guidances for fugues to his sister, so that brings us already deeper in the 18th c. We keep diving :)
I have missed Mozart's letter to his sister, thank you for that gem of information.
In an April 10, 1782 letter to his father, Leopold, Mozart wrote, “I go to the house of Baron Van Suiten [Swieten, Emmanuel Bach's Patron] every Sunday at 10 o’clock and nothing is played there but Händel and Bach. I am making a collection of Bach’s fugues, those of Sebastian as well as Emanuel and Friedman [Mozart knew of the Bach family well enough to know the middle names that family and friends referred to the respective family members].-Also of Händel’s, and I don’t have those. I expect that you know that the ‘English Bach’ is dead? What a loss to the musical world!”
Here is the letter from Mozart to his beloved sister for the benefit of your viewers:
''April 20, 1782:
I composed the fugue first and wrote it down while I was thinking out the prelude. (my comment Prelude, some times called Fantasie, and Fugue in C Major, K 394). I only hope that you will be able to read it, for it is written so very small; and I hope further that you will like it. Another time I shall send you something better for the clavier.
My dear Constanze is really the cause of this fugue’s coming into the world. Baron van Swieten, to whom I go every Sunday, gave me all the works of Händel and Sebastian Bach to take home with me (after I had played them to him). When Constanze heard the fugues, she absolutely fell in love with them. Now she will listen to
nothing but fugues, and particularly (in this kind of composition) the works of Händel and Bach.
Well, as she has often heard me play fugues out of my head, she asked me if I had ever written any down, and when I said I had not, she scolded me roundly for not recording some of my compositions in this most artistically beautiful of all musical forms and never ceased to entreat me until I wrote down a
fugue for her. So this is its origin.
I have purposely written above it, Andante Maestoso, as it must not be played too fast. For if a fugue is not played slowly, the ear cannot clearly distinguish the theme when it comes in, and consequently, the effect is entirely missed. When I get the time and opportunity, I will make another five and deliver them to Baron van Suiten; because I have to say, he really owns, while admittedly very small in quantity, but in regard to quality,
a very great treasure of good music.
And therefore, I ask you to promise me not to take back your promise, and let no man see them. Learn them by heart and play them. A fugue is not so easy to play after only hearing it. -
If father has not yet had the works of Eberlin (Johann Ernst Eberlin, possibly the 9 Toccatas with Fugues for organ, imslp.org/wiki/9_Toccatas_and_Fugues_(Eberlin%2C_Johann_Ernst)) copied, then I would be very pleased-
- I have gotten hold of them and - because I could no longer remember that, with a closer look, they are far too trivial, and truthfully, do not deserve a place beside Händel and Bach..."
E Power Biggs included a piece by J E Eberlin in his A treasury of shorter organ classics collection, which I once possessed but gave away as a gift. E Power Biggs was a major force in the 1940's-1950's in the HIP movement (although not called such) and was involved in playing historical or historical based instruments. When Biggs was growing up, the frequently held opinion was the Organ works of J S Bach finally found the perfect instrument as played on the Organs of Aristide Cavaillé-Coll, the Symphonic Organs built in the 19th century. which an analogy to the J S Bach keyboard works only sound at their best on the Piano, a oft repeated opinion which has become an entrenched tradition.
From wikipedia, (for what it's worth) Johann Ernst Eberlin (27 March 1702 - 19 June 1762) was a German composer and organist whose works bridge the baroque and classical eras. He was a prolific composer, chiefly of church organ and choral music. Marpurg claims he wrote as much and as rapidly as Alessandro Scarlatti and Georg Philipp Telemann, (a claim also repeated by Leopold Mozart, my comment L. Mozart moved to Salzburg in 1737 before starting his musical career in 1740 as violinist and organist) although ultimately Eberlin did not live nearly as long as either of those two composers.
Eberlin's first breakthrough was in 1727 when he became the organist for Count Leopold von Firmian (then Archbishop of Salzburg). He reached the peak of his career when he was the organist for Archbishop Andreas Jakob von Dietrichstein. By 1749 he held the posts of Hof- und Domkapellmeister (Court and Cathedral chapel master) simultaneously, an achievement which his successors Michael Haydn, Leopold Mozart, and Wolfgang Mozart himself were not to match. Despite Mozart's father Leopold's great opinion of Eberlin, and having sent the young Mozart some of Eberlin's best known works, his keyboard pieces, the young Mozart later tired of them (wikipedia references the above letter which contradicts wikipedia's article).
Sadly, a lot of what he says would be clearer if he just made his points more succinctly, and more clearly instead of jumping back and forth, repeating what he said moments beofre and then making the same point again in a different way. Point 1. Chopin copied Czerny's metronome marks. (2) Cxerny was respected. (3) Some of the metronome markings are too fast to play. -So where does that leave us????. I still have no idea idea how Choping played Bach.
Dear Sir,
This is absolutely wonderful. I am thrilled by your passion and enthralled by this inside knowledge of key figures of music history and this mid 19th century period performance practice. Absolutely fascinating.
Sincerely,
A Fellow Musician
Thank you so much for the nice words, they are so encouraging to read!
Please make more videos on Chopin!
i will, over the coming months! Certainly when the pianoforte is here : czcams.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWVmL5HeEuF-LemxgtOC3RLH.html
Kept expecting to hear music performed for some reason.
Can imagine, of course I made over a 150 music recordings, but here it would be a welcome addition. End of May, the fortepiano will be here, and that will allow me to expand
As I've said before, your theories and ideas are correct. Your critics can hang on to their beliefs as long as they want. History will prove right right. Your work is of great importance.
I was hoping you might play it on the piano... But I deeply admire your insight nonetheless. :)
Thanks Tristan, I wish I had three days in one... how cool would it be to have musicians on this channel helping demonstrating all of this, it's an idea that we're working on!
Before the advent of wax rolls, vinyl, CDs, MP3s, etc. people were the instrument for duplication of pieces of music. And therefore teachers and publications would be precise about how a piece needed to be played. A similar development occurred in portrait painting. After the advent of photography, personal interpretations by the artists took off.
always interesting to hear or read comments about distant cousin Hans and Cosima
O wow... would love to read more on your family relation ship. Von Bülow is such intriguing person to me (also in the research on tempo)!
In the early 19th century polish musicians, and we know Chopin too - imported scores mostly from Vienna and Berlin. That's why Chopin was so familiar with music of Hummel and stille brilliant. So that almost sure that in his early years he had and played from the Czerny edition of DWK.
Thanks for an interesting presentation, Wim. I must say I would have liked to hear you play an example of those unplayable metronome numbers :)
By definition that would be impossible...:). i have made several videos on tempo, with digital examples as well, here's one you'll find interesting I guess: czcams.com/video/fAx1Rkn6HUE/video.html
Yes, I was saying it in jest, of course and I have already seen the video you suggested, as well as the one where you discuss Anton Schindler.
Ooh, I really am amazed! It makes so much sense, when you explained it!!
Great to read!
Very educational posts. Thanks a lot. It helps me more as a musician studying The Well Tempered Clavier.
Great to read!
Letters are absolutely great.From many points of view.
Did I read well on the 3rd prelude 92 = 1/8 notes plus a dot? So how do you divide that by two beats (the double beat theory) Ciao, Wim! Dario
As always, very informative!
Would be nice if you played more
what about the 279 recordings for free on this channel!
AuthenticSound I just ran across this one and had hoped for lots of playing examples. I do like your videos. Chopin and Mozart are my favorites.
Great analysis / lets hear
I think the headline is a misnomer. We don't talk about how Chopin played, but rather how he possibly did NOT play and only tempo is considered. However, Wim's passion is contagious.
You can hear him play (not in the metronome markings he talks about) here:
czcams.com/video/AhlyRrZzkTU/video.html
Fascinating. Ok, I'm confused by your concluding comments about metronome tempi. If Czerny knew Beethoven's speeds with Bach's music, then how could he have transmitted metronome indications which you say are unplayably fast? You imply that we have either failed to understand what Czerny is saying or you imply that he was crazy with his tempi markings. I just can't figure it out. What? Beethoven zoomed through Bach faster than Mark Andre Hamelin could rip up the keys? Or, Beethoven played at a sane tempo and somehow Czerny has made an error? I can't figure it out.
Hi Fred, I'll give you a video to start with, think about it this way: the metronome ticks back and forth and both together were considered as one count. So basically those metronome marks make total sense (as the other thousands early 19th c. metronome marks), if you take them metrical. So quarter note 120 is every eight note a tick in 120MM. Here is a video to start: czcams.com/video/2yd7LWi4wus/video.html
Ok, so I watched it for the 2'nd time. What I think I concluded is that an idea of "half time" appears to approximate or best describe a tempo marking that otherwise would result in ridiculous speeds. I was confused by your comment in the video above by what Czerny said about Beethoven's performance speeds. I suppose that these days most performers will adopt a speed that "feels" right. This would be a projection of the performers aesthetics. I am always reminded of Gould's speeds on some of the Mozart works and of course he knew perfectly well how to play them as if he was Wilhelm Kempf. He purposefully went out of his way to play at twice the tempo, mostly to shock his listeners. He knew that it was just ridiculous and he was highly amused by the reactions. What speed Beethoven would have played the WTC, I just don't have a grasp. I can't quite figure it out.
I couldn't help but smile when I read a lot of the comments. Apparently the opinionated are not relegated to the rock genre...ie: who is the best guitarist. Like or dislike Gould, he was a formidable figure in classical music.
;)
he was... imagine he would have lived a few years longer. if there is one thing I would be allowed to change, is to install a listening culture in which an artist is not judged on how much he/she corresponds with the listening habits/opinions of the listener, but on the musical story that is being reveled. Though I do have the impression that more and more people are in for this.
This was a great find! Thank you for the great lecture :)
Thank you for watching!
Wim, Chopin marks the dotted quarter at 92 in Bach's C# prelude. So how do you apply the double-beat theory to triple meter?
Hi Paul, it's called Tempus Inaequalis, i demonstrate this from time to time, but here is a video with Lorenz on the topic: czcams.com/video/d4Ke5nvftZg/video.html&index=9&list=PLackZ_5a6IWU1zXuo_Qx-YrCCtaJcBiPO
Thanks for your videos !
Great to have you here, thanks for watching!
Fascinating, thanks for the lecture. Would love to hear Chopin on clavichord with some octave rearrangements to account for range. I tried some easy Chopin on harpsichord which sounds good to me.
I have never thought on that... it's a completely different world though. Perhaps i'll try some
I love your accent. 😎
That's a huge compliment, thank you !
Thank you very much for these interesting videos. You talk a lot about the topic tempo im music. This is actually for me the most interesting topic now. I would like to lead an interesting conversation with you about this topic.
By the way, I hear from your accent something russian. Do you speak russian? Where are you from? I noticed from your video, that you also speak german? I am from germany and I am a biggest fan of J. S. Bach. I am a musician,too.
I would be very thankful, if I get an answer from you.
Thanks.
Wow! Wonderful video.
Happy New Year, 🎆
Thanks!
BTW, I am totally amazed that you were a lover of Chopin in your younger days. We can't remove Chopin from the standard repertoire. Far too important and despite all the negativity that Gould heaped on Chopin, I and millions of others enjoy playing him and listening to his tunes.
Didn't know that fucker didn't like Chopin. Another reason to not like him.
Gould did record a single Chopin sonata, so judge for yourself: czcams.com/video/UYUpTgl5VQM/video.html
Apparently he was also a great admirer of Robert Casadesus's recording of the same sonata.
What's the "Proper" way, then? ;)
I guess the tradition of polemic buffoonery stretches back quite a long way, from Mozart calling Clementi a charlatan, to Leonhardt (furthest from a "clown" I know!) refusing to play Handel because he was not the "best", then. And some could argue that being stylistically informed isn't always a prerequisite to making a valid interpretation -- think Vaughan Williams conducting the St. Matthew passion.
I've always found the discussions surrounding Gould's playing, and the surprising vehemence of his defenders or detractors, to be interesting. Reactions to a performance tell us more about the listener than about the performance itself.
I didn't realise Glenn didn't like Chopin, why whouldn't he?
What are your thoughts on the compilation box set The Real Chopin?
you are amazing. dont stop! PLSSS
Thanks for the compliments Alexander, it is a privilege to be able to share this with you
I was hoping to hear samples of how Bach would have played a piece and then how Chopin would have played it. He never gets around to it.
That's coming when the pianoforte arrives so bit of patience... you'll find dozens of videos on my channel talking and playing
I listened to some your Chopin recording...very nice.
Thanks!
Very inspiring. Thanks!
How do you approach the tempo in that prelude 848 with time signature 3/8?
Mendelssohn was a big deal, too. Matthäus Passion is THE piece of music. Thanks to Mendelssohn it finally became what is deserves.
Mendelssohn was a genius!
And thank to Karl Richter also!
I want to hear you play it at Chopin’s suggestions.
Thank you for sharing your passion. Very interesting.
Thanks for listening!
Very surprised to learn that Chopin extensively used the metronome. This has great relevance regarding the question of rubato. Lizst famously said that rubato should only happen within the measure. If Chopin played his own music to the beat of a ticking metronome the rubato would have to take place within a constant beat. We just do not hear Chopin played that way today.
It's hard to say, whether he wanted the correct speed or a different kind of rubato as we use. Much to study!
Czerny's string quartets are really good, for what it's worth
He indeed wrote music that often still is worth our time, his string quartets I don't know, thanks for suggesting
AuthenticSound This recording by the Sheridan Ensemble is quite good.
Czerny: String Quartets: czcams.com/play/PLMwsd17Rl7x6yiVqsqcQ8sxCe2BnXKNGq.html
This proves one of my points: that Czerny is undervalued! People dismiss his student works as a series of exercises that have to be overcome while moving up the piano technique ladder. However compare them with any other similar opus and it should be clear to anyone with a modicum of musicality that they are so much more. I for one have spent endless hours on his opus 139 which is afill with little musical gems!
Great to read!
Wonderfully informative video. Thank you!
Great to read Robert!
So how did Chopin play Bach? The way Czerny would recommend
yes!
Hello my name is clavizzao and I was trying to get some information about the clavichord I found out recently my family and ancestors name came from this is there anything you can tell me about it I would appreciate it thank you
How would you interpret the metronome marking in the example in this video (dotted quarter = 92) in the double beat theory? I also wonder about other pieces in compound meter, such as the F major prelude from book 1. I’m also curious about your opinion on the marking on the C major fugue from book 1 as to why Czerny would mark an eighth note on a piece Bach wrote in 4/4. Does the double best also apply here? Thanks for your videos!
Allow me to reply with some videos: on the 3:2 thing, there is this
video:
czcams.com/video/d4Ke5nvftZg/video.html
(in that playlist right before there is another one on that topic), and on
Czerny Bach: yes, you need to read them metrical, the 4/4 is one thing, the
notation is the second layer of importance, with harmonic structure that goes
over the 'common' use of 4/4, here is a vid on that that I need to redo soon :
czcams.com/video/fAx1Rkn6HUE/video.html&list=PLackZ_5a6IWVP1Nb_Zxr-RfFHX62Nz9iQ&index=7
great lectures! thank you very, very much!
Thanks for watching, Piotr!
Awesome
Found!
Great video!!
Thank you so much for watching, Ryan!
Good video man. Wow!!!
Thanks Matt!
Great video ,but i would have expected a proposal of a Chopin rendition in your view.Somehow.Like get into some phrasing etc.as you reed it on the scores you have.Anyway it was very interesting and instructive.To say the least.
Thanks Adrian, today I'll have Chopin on my clavichord (...), but that's not really an experiment with Bach. I have a video though where you'll find some aspects and make a new one next Wednesday. here's the 'old' one: czcams.com/video/fAx1Rkn6HUE/video.html
I'm curious as to whether the score tells us if Chopin used the pedal at all with Bach?
great question, which... I don't know!
You talked all throughout the video! How Frédéric Chopin Played J.S.Bach - You should change your title it doesn't make any sense, it is misleading.
well, it put you on the way of trying to understand what impacted Chopin for his Bach interpretation. It's obvious I'd say the title has not the claim of knowing how Chopin exactly played, nobody really knows, but it shapes the context.
Veritable musical Sherlock Homes. Not informed myself but found it quite interesting. Thank you.
Thanks Rod!
Wasn't chopin's C major etude #1 opus 10 composed based on a bach's prelude in C major?.....except of course with Chopin, its 10 times more difficult
yes it was! czcams.com/video/w18esj7n8YE/video.html
you are a very interesting man, I also play piano and I would like to meet you
Thanks! Feel free to contact me through www.authenticsound.org
Very interesting, thanks Wim
Thanks! I expect you are aware that Beethoven had mastered the WTC by age 12.
Where do I find more info about you?
authenticsound.org
Czerny's preface does refer to some of his tempi being "exceedingly rapid". To speak purely in terms of aesthetics, I have found that some of Czerny's slurrings and articulations only make sense in his rapid tempi-the C sharp major prelude is a prime example...Interesting that the Chopin copy doesn't reproduce those marks!
+Nick Williams You should try the Czerny tempi once, also the original ones of the inventions and sinfonias (they were changed in later editions without mentioning). Most of the fast mov. make no sense in single beat or are impossible to play but work great in double beat. Chopin did copy Czerny's mm marks! Best wishes, Wim
AuthenticSound Did you come across von Bülow's comment about metronomisation in the preface to his Cramer studies edition?
I think the case of Chopin's op10 no1 potentially provides some good circumstantial evidence for your double beat theory being correct. Some performers can play it at the stated 176 tempo (single beat) - though for most it's more like 152/164 - but without exception, they all lose the accents on the first note of each set of sixteenth notes, instead producing a uniform torrent of notes. I doubt that it's really possible for anyone to play these accents meaningfully at the full tempo if interpreted as single beat.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts here Stuart. I'm working slowly on some of the opus 10/1 - on the Erard now. e.g. the f minor (10/9), has these 16th quintols at the end, no ritard. mentioned, is also a very good clue.
Some further thoughts on this, after trying a few of these at the piano. (I'm not Chopin scholar by any means and not familiar with the sources, so take this with a pinch of salt.) Interpreting the tempos as double beat (i.e. equivalent to 88 for op10 no1, 72 for op10 no2, 50 for op10 no3 etc), it does seem that these are a *little* too slow to make musical sense. I also agree that it's absurd to claim that the composers themselves are somehow getting the metronome numbers wrong in a systematic fashion. But do we have any clear knowledge of how the metronome numbers exactly arrived in the proofs? I've seen one person (here: www.angelalear.com/interpretingchopin/interpretingchopin/the_etudes.html ) claim that the original Chopin manuscripts contain very few metronome numbers and that those that appear in the first editions are often additions by other parties (the publisher, the copyist, Chopin's sister?). If so, is it possible that these other people are getting it wrong and e.g. Chopin is perhaps simply not reading the proofs with attention? Or not seeing the proofs? Certainly Czerny's studies sound perfectly sensible when played at the double beat tempo, which provides good evidence for the double beat theory for Czerny - but in the case of Chopin, the "musically sensible" tempos seem somewhere between those given by either a single beat or double beat interpretation - closer to those given in my Edition Peters copy of 104 for op10no1, 108 for op10 no2, and 60 for op10 no3 (where presumably the editors have ignored the MMs on the first edition and gone with what sounds good/what they think sounds good).
Double beat tempo interpretation is spot on for op10 no6 however.
The title led to great disappointment .I didn’t hear that which was described
Love this guy :) infectious :)) so interesting
We cannot use Czerny's metronome markings from one Century later to prove Bach as a "double-beater" - It makes no sense.
Apart from the fact 92 dotted crotchets per minutes still are feasible on modern pianos, let alone on the much lighter, faster-action historical ones (same goes for clavichords and harpsichords as well), as Fritz Rotschild demonstrated in his masterful volume "The Lost Tradition in Music" up until Bach's times (mid-18th Century) a Piece written in crotchets, quavers and semiquavers like the one analyzed in the video, Prelude and Fugue n.3 in C sharp major from the First Volume of the Well-Tempered Clavier, should have been played at a moderately fast pace: so, Czerny's metronomes are for sure a bit too fast; but for sure we cannot draw the conclusion we have to half the speed!
Also, having in mind Vivaldi's violin concertos (and Bach was a fervent admirer of him, drawing lots of influence from his Music), the Piece in question is written in quite a similar way, and as such we should have also in mind how a violinist, or any string player indeed, would approach such a Piece: to fit those semiquavers sextuplets while making all of the notes "speaking" you'll need a moderately fast tempo, not so fast as to get a rushed, confused sound, but not as slow and dragged to even not having enough bow for a whole sextuplet: Bach would have probably played this Piece not as fast as Czerny wrote in his edition, but for sure not at "double-beat" speeds! It not even would be musical...
Absolutely we can. I'm not talking on Bach's tempi, but the tempi as taken by Beethoven/Czerny. And you may have noticed I have several of those 'light' instruments ... only people who've never played on those (really) make such claims. You point to Rotschild, well, he is not far from what I'm saying in this video
@@AuthenticSound Problem is, as proved in the same volume, Bach still had a certain tradition in regard, but still it was being lost yet at his time, and we cannot project the categories and practices a composer from the Renaissance (the "Old Tradition" Bach still had his roots into) had into Czerny and Chopin: if Bach yet was one of the very last bystander of one certain Tradition, how can we use him as a reference point for composers having lived one Century later?
Also, while as a "rule-of-thumb" the shorter the values, the slower the tempo might have a validity in the "Old Tradition" and as such to play Bach and contemporaries, we absolutely cannot say the same holds true for 19th-Century Music. And basing researches on Czerny's revision of the "Wohltemperierte Clavier" is at very least disputable, it represents the way Music from the past was perceived at a time when the idea of fidelity to its intention wasn't such a priority.
Is it possible that Chopin used the Czerny annotation as a method of teaching but not as something that he would use himself?
Well, I suppose seen the fact that he copied every tiny bit of information, even cresc etc, I believe chances are really big he accepted Czerny as an authority. people were less individual than we are today, and Czerny was a giant name at the time.
If you listen to Paul Barton's recording on CZcams, he plays Prelude III in C sharp major at exactly Czerny's tempo, dotted crotchet = 92. Im not saying this is the correct or best speed to play it at, but it's certainly possible. czcams.com/video/vGdV4mJhaKU/video.html
sure, the opus 10/4 is very well possible.
I had hoped you would demonstrate it, not just talked about it. Chopin felt a pianist should play Bach as a daily routine. He also said that the left hand should be extremely regular and the right could float a bit relative to that, in time. As many music formats then and before were named after dances - mazurka, waltz - I feel pianists should consult with musicians performing to dancers about the latters' reaction to not being on time like a metronome.
What Chopin meant was the 18th century meaning of rubato: where you had a long ornament, not in strict mathematical devision, but with figures containing 9,11,... notes per count, that gives the impression of playing in two movements (which is actually very difficult indeed), you'll find that also in Beethoven, even in Mozart it starts. You'll find some sound examples in this video (and I'll make new ones): czcams.com/video/fAx1Rkn6HUE/video.html
Opus 10 # 1 is the very piece I want to hear!
czcams.com/video/aZZMuX6-1Sw/video.html
No demonstration?
Cosima was daughter of Liszt and married both von Bulow and Wagner??? Amazing!!
not at the same time... !
This guy is Brilliant. Without English subtitles, I have no idea what he's saying, because his accent is so strong. But to think that he's not a native English speaker, and contrives such complex sentences in English with such aplomb, along with no self-conscientiousness for his lack of pronunciation prowess, is in itself amazing. Combine that with his advanced knowledge of the historical context in which the classical composers intertwined their careers, and experiences with each others' music, and this monologue is nothing short of brilliant. I can't wait 'til I hear him play an example of Chopin's expression of Bach's playing.
+dwiedemann thanks for watching and sorry I let you down with my English. You're the first who tells me he cannot understand my Euro speak. I guess I'll have to work harder! best, Wim
AuthenticSound i mean i can understand and im not even from an english speaking country
Wim Winters, please play 15th piano sonata op. 28 from Beethoven on Clavichord.
I certainly will Mirec, certainly when the pianoforte is here, that sonata still works on my clavichord, but really on the edge, it is a beautiful work, with a notation that can be said so much about
Wim Winters thank you very much. I'm very looking forward.
I want a copy! 😍😍😍😍😍😍😍
Hello wim just thought I’d write to you.
I subscribed to your channel months ago.
I just thought I’d tell you I’m interested in your double beat theory. I’m not a musicologist or historian.
And from your videos I genuinly personality wise differ from you. I’m messy lol
But my 2 cents. I’m not big into classical music. I come from a traditional Irish music family. My musical influences are really from early rock music in the 50s 60s
Also from the grunge movement of the 90s specifically Kurt cobain
I think you would find him a curious person his ideas on music.
But from an amateur I find you very interesting. And for what it’s worth for classical music your one of my favorite performers
I have a lot of anxiety. So it is a challenge for me to concentrate and listen to anything. And like I said my musical interests are in pop or rock and roll
I actually own a clavichord.
Anyway I’d love a chance to talk with you someday
I hope you read this
welcome to the channel!