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- čas přidán 14. 08. 2024
- Can they tell the difference? $5 dongle vs $850 Desktop DAC/Amp
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- Sony FE 24mm F1.4 GM (36mm APSC)
- RØDE Wireless Pro
- Monitoring Headphone: Sony MDR7506
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andy- your amazing!
you have an almost "infectious" integrity.
i am a physician, and I'm familiar with scientific methodology (more or less. doing my best..):
what you have done is a "single blind" experiment. the subjects were blinded to the equipment they are listening with.
a more reliable method is called "double blind study":
in this method neither the listeners( "patients") nor andy ("doctor") are aware of what combination of equipment was compared -until all the listening, documented estimations and personal impressions were documented and "sealed,".
then the data is "unblinded" and you get results .
this is the "gold standard" of medical research .
I'm writing this because it is quite easy to organize a "double blind study" framework in which audio equipment will be tested -with rigorous methodology- that - with several participants +one "research assitance" will give results that reflects only the facts.
( a "research assistance"- to change the connections-you are not allowed to do it yourself, as it might cause premature "unblinding" of the study.).
btw- I did it , years ago , with a bunch of audiophiles -which im not..- to test whether or not 500$ interconnectors are "better" than 50$ ones. you can guess how the results looked like..
keep on , and good luck
yoav
Thanks! I gonna pin this. Your insight is what I need. I am already planning on how you suggested it, double blind with independent operator 😁
@@donglemadness i can think of a modular design that will make future test (if you intend to run such)- uniform, simple and cheap.
but these are sets of rules (besides the experiment "space"- who seats where and the examiner/participant orientation).
as for an example -its most reliable without the participant seeing you during the experiment, and any communication is done by pre-determined instructions referring to faq- and so on..
it wont make your audience tired, but it will make you.
nevertheless, its only when you begin doing this. it is much easier at the secondv"experiment", and i am sure you will be able to easily recruit volunteers for those comparative tests - as there are very few if at all on youtube and such rigorous methods are mentioned but remains "behind the scene"- so you will make vibrant, very anjoying videos( like now) but with the huge added value:
people consuming audio - equipment at many prices levels - and the correlation⁷ between the price /popularity of certain headphones and their actual performances are ( well- you know better then i do..).
It will be my pleasure to help you construct a modular toolbox for such tests.. I need such a channel myself. and a double blind comparison of , lets say , of several popular mid range headphones ( sony xm3 vs xm5 vs apple max(whatever) vs koss cheap but musical porta pro- in which the participents should be with eyecover and no info as for which headphone is tested)- will , i think have some unexpected results( and with 5-10 participants-these results are FACTS . not personal opinions...).
love to help
bests
yoav halfon
Now make the test but with 50, 100, 200 dollar IEMs
would be interesting to see the diminishing returns on lower end gear. Blind test for cables, IEMs, dongle DACs would also be interesting
I have plans for those too 😁
Liked. $5 vs $850? I'd love to hear another comparison with your top $100 or $200 dongle vs a top $850 desktop unit.
I hear you 😁🙏
@donglemadness even vs the Onix Alpha
Interesting!.👍 I would also enjoy seeing other comparisons. For example between a $50 dongle and a $200 desktop unit.
Agreed
Noted! 😁😁😁
I was going to ask the same😊
Thanks for having us. It’s was fun and great experience. I am still hanging over from the Ben’s special blend coffee. lol.
My pleasure bro
Yo! Darren... and Hi Andy!
Next one, How about doing a blind test or review with an Audio Engineer..
Thank God people can all definitely tell a $850 equipment apart from a $5 one. But the true comparison IMHO is whether a good $50-100 dongle can match a good $200 desktop dac/amp like the Topping DX3 Pro+
Thanks for nice experiment.. It would be interesting to comparing top of the line USB dongle like TP50 vs Burson one too 😅
I hear you 😁😁
This is a great idea Andy! I would have started the listening test with no external DAC, just testing straight out of laptop sound first as a baseline. That way we can witness the difference of adding a budget DAC to not having one at all. Seeing if a little cheap accessory can make a difference. And then we can witness the benefits of going more hifi in addition.
Thanks. I take note of your suggestion and hopefully can implement something like that in the next edition of blind tests!
❤
Finally!
Why no one did this tests earlier :)
Oh ya. Something to add… I do not know the price differences while listening and was shock to find out later.
Lol
Ya dongle lima dollar haha
@@wahid-lg1kk beli Cepat. Lol
@@DarenLee wkwkwk.. Baru beli sonata bhd pro, sebetulnya.. Mau colorfly m1p, tapi akhir minit jadi takut ama masalah heat management, kan katanya suka jadi panas amat.. Lagi ngabung, mau beli cayin u6 r2r..
@@wahid-lg1kk R2R dac good? I haven’t try it before.
Thank you very much Andy, i really enjoy your work and videos. It has helped me to purchase really good gear.😊
In connection with this good video of today, i can tell you that i have compared the sound with Hifiman Ananda Stealth headphones with both Hifiman Ef 400 dac amp for 400 euros (before it costed much more) and the dongel Colorfly CDA M1P for 68 euro, that i bought on recommendation from you. There is a difference between those, but very small. The dongels have come a long way. Again thank you for a very nice channel!😊
My pleasure. Enjoy your music!!! 😁
Great test! Would be also interesting to see the difference between ~5$ and 50-100 -200$ dongles (as these are probably logical "next steps" for a lot of beginners who wanna upgrade from cheap 5-10$ dongles)
Thanks. I have a bigger blind test planned soon with more options. Stay tuned!
Bro, I love this video man. I really do. Loved seeing Darren in the mix and the others. Very cool Andy!! Also, it's pretty revealing too.
Thanks man, I hang out with Daren and Ben regularly
That was really fun Andy! Thanks for sharing with us!
Glad you enjoyed it 😁🙏
I really appreciate your work, it was where I managed to gain better knowledge about DAC dongles, continue with this merit.💯👏🏼
Thank you, I will
Excellent video Andy, if you are planning to do another similar video, it would be interesting if the subjects have their favorite iem/headphone. I think that in that scenario they can note more differences
Yes, I agree, but usually non Audiophile subjects don't have favorite earphones, lol
andy-it seems that you cant escape the will of the people demanding unbiased scientific comparisons...
I was not aware of it when writing my comments-
but its a good sign( I think)-
it shows we, the listeners, are drowning in information -but starving for pure, neutral unbiased facts.
you are very sensitive to your own bias( everyone is biased, few admits it)+ you are an outstanding communicator- so-
go ahead!
Great idea to have both audiophile and non audiophile, a suggestion for the next blind tesr video : let your test subject play with a a/b source switch box to instantly switch and refine their impressions of differences , also listen to more than one song as i often noticed that my preference between 2 gear change with the songs
Thanks. and noted!
Very fun video, but here are some suggestions in case you want to do another blind test in a more scientific and thorough way, but not that there's anything wrong doing it in a fun way with friends anyway.
1) All three participants noticed that the dongle was softer or quieter. Probably the volume wasn't exactly matched. For our brains, louder is better, even within a
Thanks and really appreciate the suggestions. Hope to use them in the upcoming tests. Cheers
nice comparison
Fantastic video Andy! You should do this again!
Thanks. Looking forward to do more of these in the future
Well, I don’t agree that ordinary people have ways to describe the differences between a stationary source and a tail. The most important difference is the elongation of the sound. It’s like a bench on a subway car where 10 people are sitting in a row, it’s a tail and a big source when these 10 people are sitting across the village, the stretched and relaxed sound is immediately noticeable
This was awesome! Thanks for sharing with us.
My pleasure 🙏
Great comparison and listener feedback! Illuminating! 😃👍🎶🎵
It was fun 😁
some small suggestions.Take off glasses before test any iem or headphones. Glasses will make headphones leak sound. Glasses also change tonality of some iem
Noted!
Hi Andy!
For the next audition, How about doing a blind test or review with an Audio Engineer >Mixing Engineer> Studio Engineer especially..
Casual/mass-market Listeners, Audiophiliacs and Audio engineers sharing thoughts.
You know of any audio engineer in KL area that would want to do the next test I am planning soon? email me at andyaudiovault@gmail.com
@@donglemadness Alrighty will let ya know
@@donglemadness Hi Andy . JD Wong , Guitarist and Mixing Engineer from Pop Shuvit. Dia ada his own recording studio : Studio 21:05. He seems interested in doing this .
I will share your email to him. he wanted the email address.
Hi Andy. i will pass JD Wong's contact info to Darren lee
Amazing video. Loved the inclusion of a non-audiophile giving opinions. The things you do is truly pushing the audio community to a better direction.
Are you going to do more desktop dac/amp reviews in the future? I have a FiiO K11 and I'm planning to buy a dongle dac in the near future. I just need something that sound similar to the K11 but for on the go. I'm eyeing the FiiO Q11 which has the same chip as the K11. I'm wondering how the Q11 stacks up to the newer dongles, Thank you.
Thanks. And yes I plan to do more of deaktop DAC/Amps as well as battery powered ones. Q11 is pretty much on par to FiiO KA13 when it comes to sound tuning, except that of course Q11 has battery and higher gain
nice video man...plz make another one with Burson against top dogs like FC6, RU07, DC04 etc...
On it 😁🙏
9:15 its just a matter of time when she will come to the dark side ... muhahahhaa
Great test! Love to see non audiophile people's take on high end gear. The difference is noticeable it seems.
HD600 is difficult to power. How would this test go if some iems were tested? Wouldn't the gap be even more closer?
Yes you are right, especially on highly efficient IEMs, the differences would be even smaller and harder to discern
Nice video getting the opinions of both audiophile & non-audiophile. Can you please do the same with the IEMs.
Thanks. It is in my plan
Great video !
Thanks you!!!
Thanks, i have been waiting for this video a long time, now what about doing the same thing with an iem ? Keep up the good work :)
That's the plan! 😁🤘
Nice video Andy 😄
Thanks! 😀
I would appreciate it if you could push more videos like this. so curious to watch their reaction and comment on the audio experience.
No worries, I am planning some more blind tests. Coming soon!
Really interesting video, Andy! May I suggest if you plan do to more on this subject to opt for a higher tier dongle (maybe one of your favorites?) to confront against a Desktop Amp?
Thanks. To certain extent, I already did it with my review of Questyle M12i and EPZ TP50. But yes, if I do another one soon, with better prep and not so impromptu, I will use different grading of dongles. Cheers
@@donglemadnessDo we have results between M12i and TP50??!! I believe so that would one more test between Mojo 2 that many "cheers on it's name" and a dongle such as TP50, I believe would be a subject to talk about all of us for days and days! Nice work dear Andy!!
What a coincidence😅!!
I was looking for a dac amp for my headphones. And just came across your "Dongle dac vs desktop dac" last night. And voila, you have another great video on same topic in few hours.
However, one suggestion:
I understand that to showcase the prowess of dongle dac you might have compared $5 dongle with $850 DAC. But realistically, one might be looking for dongle in $50-100 range, and desktop dac in $100-300 range. So can you compare that too.
Thanks. I have many ideas in my head and what you mentioned is one of them, stay tuned!
Awesome!
Maybe the next one get them to say the % diff before the reveal.
Anyways, hope you do more of these 👍
Thanks. Also appreciate the suggestion 😁🙏
I've heard that m1 macs have a good internal dac. It would be interesting to see if they could distinguish between desktop dac and macs internal one
Cool. Even a completed untrained ear can hear a difference.
Thanks Uncle Andy. This is the test i looking for. So i know i must buy some dongle for cell/mobile phone and dac/amp for music from PC. But at least some do the job and make test. Thanks any way.
No worries. And it's a pleasure
Very interesting video. If you include me in that video it will be so funny coz I can't tell the difference between apple dongle vs more expensive dongles. Hahaha!
Nice test. But it would make much more sense to do the test with a high quality dongle such as iBasso DC Elite and low impedance Headphones like Fostex or Sony MV1.
It is interesting to me that in all three cases the listener said the Burson was louder. If the gain was not precisely matched, listeners will consistently choose the one that is louder (even by as little as 1 dB) as the better sounding one. This is a known phenomenon. When mixing or mastering as an audio engineer, it is an important part of the process to match gain precisely when listening to before/after changes like compression, EQ, etc.
So, with constructive intent . . . I'm questioning your methodology here, as to how or if you matched gain precisely to avoid the effects of that known phenomenon?
Obviously we would intuitivelybexpect the more expensive unit to sound better, but these days that gap is closing with a lot of gear. I'm a professional musician, audio engineer and acoustics consultant, and I have seen people in the audiophile world be deceived/thrown off by the deceptive effects of various known audio phenomena, so I'm always hyper aware /skeptical with regard to this stuff. (I appreciate your reviews and I know you are very careful and detail oriented, so not accusing anyone of being intentionally dishonest here, just raising the questions about the methodology.)
Thanks. I get your point. This was an impromptu candid thing we did at the spur of the moment, so there was no opportunity to conduct a more thorough setup. Perhaps in the future I will account for better planning and execution, this was originally a jest between friends "hey can you tell the difference?" sort of moment which I decided to capture on video, to see if they can gauge the gap between a tiny $5 dongle and a thoroughbred $850 DAC/Amp
It's possible to hear differences around 0.2dB especially when the tonal balance is affected in upper mids - lower treble region. One of the reasons why in some headphones and IEMs are hit or miss - small difference in tonal balance in very critical areas.
my guess if both are audio engineers they can tell.. but most won't tell i think.
edit: OH u said dac/amp vs dougle. reading is hard.. of course there is a difference :)
Would like to see this test between $1000 desktop and $100 dongle..I would bet it is hard to tell, it's going to be more personal preference about the sound signature..
You are pretty much spot on. Me and Ben afterwards talked that had I tried pitting EPZ TP50 or FiiO KA17, it would very likely very difficult for him to guess which is which
❤ Aklaim vs Something :)
¡¡Awesome!! :O
😍
Really happy with my current gear, until you review an IEM or dongle that blows the current top performers out of the water, going to save my money up. Keep doing the great reviews in the meantime 👍
Thanks for the support! 😁
But why do I listen with the cheap JM6 Pro, and the volume only at 4 on my Windows PC feels loud enough? 🤨
Also wondering about the test for the cheap dongle+FxSound app VS the desktop DAC.
Since the differences are around ambience, surround and dynamic of the sound.
another idea to trick your blind test subjects : add 1db of loudness on the $5 dongle and check if they still prefer the $850 dac :) my guess is that they won't ( or add a U or V shape eq to $5 dongle, i think the non audiophile listeners may switch preferences )
Hahaha I get your point, that should confuse them a bit
@@donglemadness it is good to have fun while discovering basic audio facts ;)
Desktop DAC Amp vs Top Tier Dongle?
I am planning for that, with proper more controlled double blind tests
Check out the song
Rise - Dominique Fils-Aimé
It has great production and helps me test my iems and headphones.
Oh and I use the balanced 4.4 port with the UA4
Uncle Andyyy!! great video 👍. I prefer iems because they are lightweight and comfortable for me. For iems does hifi dacs like these make any difference? Or dongle is enough? Since iems do not require more juice like headphones
Of course it makes difference too for IEMs 😁
Wondering how much we would have to spend on a dongle to get 90% of the quality of something like a BURSON Audio Playmate 2.
Many of the dongles I rated as 5 Stars (score above 87/100) offer 85-90% of what desktop DAC/Amps that I have tested extensively
Bro Andy
Please Rank 1 - 20 one by one from these 20 Absolute Best Budget IEMs priced under 100 bucks for Watching Movies & Listening To The Music.
#1 = The Best
#20 = The Worst
✅ KBEar Tri Star River
✅ Tanchjim Ola Bass Edition
✅ EPZ Q5
✅ QKZ X HBB Khan
✅ EPZ Q1 Pro
✅ Simgot EW200
✅ HZ Sound Heart Mirror Zero
✅ CCA Rhapsody
✅ 7Hz Sonus
✅ Blon X HBB Z300
✅ KZ D-Fi Switch Edition
✅ Kinera Celest Pandamon
✅ TRN Conch
✅ Kiwi Ears Cadenza
✅ KZ X HBB PR2
✅ Kiwi Ears Forteza
✅ Juzear Clear
✅ Whizzer HE 01
✅ KZ ZVX
✅ Moondrop Lan
Thank you Bro Andy 🙏👍😁
So is the headphone what need time to match the sound
Example like kinera nana who only need around 20 minutes to play good before
Is kinda unaudible is harsh and very muffled sound i guessingis by the electrostatic driver in it who need a time to send the information to ba driver and the sonion driver
still is 60 ohm but my headphones like Sennheiser hd 560s seems lauder but they had 120 ohms i guessing is by electrostatic drivers but is kinda iritating i m using the ibaso dc04pro for a year and i think about a little upradge in terms of micro details like hit snares
The sound where would be sound of hitnot only tssss
Listening a lot of guitar songs
Some piano songs like Rachmaninoff sho
ubert mozart chopin bethoven
Or some electronic music like Armin van Buuren tiesto calvin Harris markuz Schulz
Or something different like joker out or lamb of god
Of course nana has incredibility sound in after 20min is easyli xompared to a hifiman arya v2
And mostly Noboyuki Nakajima i dont know but lot of emetions hes doing in hes piece's
Does anyone know when the ODO will release, im wondering if i should wait to buy it or just order a different dongle.
ODO will be released in May. Check VE Shopee or AliExpress shop later
Hello Andy,
I would like to ask your opinion about something that I would like to ask and I see many listeners talk about to the forums.
Is it beneficial for the dongle if be connected to a hub such as PULWTOP? So as to have more power so as to unfold their foul potential if I understand correctly.
I am interested especially when I connect my Dac to my Laptop, not so much when connect to mobile.
Thanks for all!
I never use PULWTOP personally so I can't speak for it. But I get the idea. On my own PC I do not see the need for it, my PC is already running a fairly clean PD 3.0 USB which means I get to feed the dongles with good power feed. Full potential? most power hungry dongles would already be at full potential if you use PD 3.0 USB. But perhaps hubs like this would be beneficial if the PC or even phone are not as powerful in the first place. Also, using proper USB cable that are shielded and rated for 33w and above will already be sufficient
Love it
😁🙏
Do you think about a review with the ifi go bar kensei? 🙏👀😉😉😋
It is in my wish list. Thanks!
Nice video. May I know where can I purchase the dongle please?
Thanks, that small dongle, VE ODO will be available from Venture Electronics soon in May
I think you really stacked it against the dongle. Burson was gonna win it easily.
Maybe a $300 iem and a $150 dongle and win won’t be so easy.
The idea is, we know the Burson will likely win all blind test, the real point is to gauge how big the gap, how easy/hard it is to tell the differences, of a $5 dongle vs $850 DAC/Amp
@@donglemadness cool. Appreciate the effort. Was interesting to watch.
As someone who has both dongle and Burson, I feel price difference is huge but worth it. Even for iems.
I love Burson, I use a 2023 Soloist 3x GT with all the upgrades every single day, but I gotta say, both the Funk and Play are hands down some of the worst amps I've ever heard in my entire life including cheap $40 chinese tube amps and I feel like having that as a comparison is just doing a disservice to capable desktop amps.
hi Andy, what could be your favorite dongle option for ea1000?
HIBY FC6, EPZ TP50 and Questyle M12i
Do you feel the M15 Dac is better than the Hiby FC6 since it has a 4.4 balanced out
No, 4.4mm BAL does not determine SQ. FC6 is the champion of #donglemadness still. M15 however is one of the 5 Stars rated dongle
Next try using iem 👍
I have plans for that too😁
Boleh cuba sambung kan dengan speaker..dongle vs desktop dac..
nak kena ada speaker dulu, skang takde speaker nak test
Boleh dicuba di masa akan datang bang..kami pn nk dengar juga hahahaa...😂
♥
how many v7 vivid opamps vs stock opamps are installed in your burson playmate?
Max, 4 pieces of V7 Vivid
Questyle M15 test it please
I might do that later
@@donglemadness This won't be cheap either, too bad you don't live nearby otherwise you could use my M15 for testing
I don't know. Maybe if the DAC chips were the same, result might be different. Obviously that portable dac/amp you used had such an inferior chip, compared to the Burson. You can pick out the difference straight away. Maybe it wouldn't be so easy to differentiate if you used a better dongle, which is still much cheaper than your desktop.
That's the idea, use the cheapest one available and try to determine the gap