And probably Imperial Fists too. Seriously, what's the _deal_ with the Soul Drinkers, Black Templars, and Excoriators? That's not very Fist of them lol. (Excoriators are basically blood angels successors, except with no Blood Angel geneseed and they're Fist Succesors.)
@@fluffywolfo3663 i mean..... the black templars are on the universe's longest Penance Crusade, and they are following Sigismund rather than Lord Dadorable
it makes sense from a practical standpoint, we have a bunch of geenseed and are in desperate need of troops, so we just use all this spare geenseed laying around put fingers in our ears pretend they are Guilliman's or Dorn's kids, conceal their histories and keep an extra eye on them.
I always took the Black Templars to be like an inversion of the Fists more calm and rational behavior and deployment. Or just Sigismund. As far as the gene seed it is anyones guess. Imagine Malcador could have planned for that by putting those soldiers together in certain spots where they would not be reclaimed. Sure it is possible that the seed is in use now. How much do we really know about Gene seed stuff though? How it is gathered, how it is stored and how is it checked.
Yeah I would put malcador's over the top reaction to speaking the lost primarchs name to oneside. The geneseed is so poorly understood anyway that I doubt they could recognise the difference between stocks unless specifically looking. So I doubt they replaced it. Its possible even some of the ultramarines are actually from a different primarch. Crazy if true.
Ignoring Obvious Examples like Angron and Konrad I point to the petulance of Perturabo who could never let of a grudge no matter how minor and stubbornly refused to change battle tactics in spite of their obvious shortcomings. Their's also the clear example of Lorgar who seems to be both a lost soul seeking guidance and a sociopath who wants to justify his horrible actions. This is pretty clear proof that at least some Primarchs were never cognitively sound at all.
You could argue about nature vs nurture in this case. Perturabo was an artistic savant and an engineering genius, regardless of his petulance. Lorgar's psychological instabilities stem from the fact that he was heavily abused by Kor-Pharon as a child, regularly scolded and beaten, even when Lorgar wanted to make his "father" proud by showing him he could read.
@@40KTheories I'd never thought about how it could be a nature vs nurture thing. It could be that they were as mentally sound as you could make a person, and they were raised in a way that led to them becoming who they became
@@40KTheories I realized that Bruva as Malcador sounds like a drunken Whammudes. Also, does the Tyranid Hive Mind affect the Eldar Webway like the Warp? Can the hive mind be considered a god?
@@akumaking1 I wonder about the webway, but apart from being a gigantic Blank field in the warp and enabling psyonic communication of the Tyranid hive fleets, I have not heard/read any other supernatual/hypermundane abilities of said hive-mind.
As Cawl stated in Dark Imperium, "The warriors were not at fault, the science was not at fault, the Primarchs were". I think the gene seed of the lost and the purged, was preserved. Also, as far as the Thousand Sons goes, remember, Revuel Arvida had his gene seed purified by the soul shard of Magnus. This act could have given the Emperor the ability to create stable thousand sons successors, i.e. the blood ravens.
And yet long after Janus' geneseed had been purified and the Grey Knights were sent to Titan, the Emperor still claimed that the Flesh Change was incapable of being expunged. (Side note, if the Blood Ravens were Thousand Sons successors, then given the events that happened in Ashes of Prospero, they would have all succumbed to the Rubric. But while the geneseed of the Thousand Sons awakens the psychic potential of those that have it, there is *no* such genetic trait found in Blood Raven geneseed. Their index astartes articles even state outright that the reason for them having such a high number of psykers is _not_ genetic)
@@40KTheories if davian Thule said what he found on planet kronus.....we could have got an idea...or even the actual origin of blood Ravens.....thier original legion and primarch......why.....davian Thule..... (TT)
@@zenoblues7787 yes but he sounded so panicked and shocked like he came to know the truth and real origin .....but unfortunately venerable dreadnought davian Thule died on the defence of cadia
@@zenoblues7787 that makes me not trust the Chaplain in the Angels of Death teaser, he talked about the power of friendship. He's a side character and for some reason I think something is gonna happen with him
I think what happened to the 2 lost primarchs was simple, they landed on a xenos world, and were inducted into the respective xenos race. Perhaps they rose to conquer and lead their xenos race, or the xenos race indoctrinated and used them as a tool like the Emperor intended to do so himself. A primarch that fights for a non-human race, would support that first quote you dropped from Malcador - it would have threatened everything the Great Crusade stood for.
@@Anonymouzor lost can mean multiple things, not just like, being lost. Could mean lost to humanity, in a sense that they don't believe they are human anymore, indoctrinated to become something alien.
@@LoLleavemealonePLZ I recall that in some book or short story Fulgrim recalls on of those brothers (I thinks that was second) and mentions that he didn't have a sense of humor. And form the context it was clear that he was a part of crusade for some time.
Shit like that image at 0:43 is the reason I love 40k. We can have bad ass super soldiers who can spit acid and eat metal, space wizards who bend the very fabric of reality, kleptomaniacal skeletons made out of living metal which are potentially older than our planet, and shit like *that image.* All in the same universe. Gog I love 40k.
@@empireempire3545 though to be pedantic, we don't actually know exactly when the necrons first underwent bio-transfurance. It could have been billions of years ago, as we also don't know how long the war in heaven lasted.
The Necron’s long sleep was at least 60 million years long. So Necrons are at least older than the earliest fish and likely jellyfish, but not necessarily older than the earliest corals.
My theory is still that one of the lost legions was taken over by the Rangdan (and thus purged) and the other actively sided with Xenos, possibly the Eldar, before somehow being lost to all parties, possibly as they fled the Space Wolves' retribution
@@zenoblues7787 My headcanon is that one of them ("Kurosh") had such bad losses against the Rangdan that he started skimping on the mental conditioning of his Astartes to quickly increase numbers, leading to them being easily mind controlled by the Rangdan. This would resolve the issue of marine vs marine being unthinkable yet the Space Wolves had experience in it--they killed marines' *bodies* but at that point they weren't truly marines anymore.
@@zenoblues7787 The other ("Taliesin") landed on a feudal world being subtly ruled by a class of benevolent Eldar, leading him to eventually being censured for refusing to exterminate non-aggressive xenos. Obviously when his past history with xenos in his upbringing is revealed he's considered tainted.
I've had a hypothesis for a while that the Black Templars aren't actually of Dornian stock, given how different they are in character from their supposed brothers.
The BT have a black and white herardly, that reminds me of Malal. When Horus was choking he cried the probable name of one of The Lost ones, he shouted " Mal...al".We know that the holy number of Malal is 11....11 as one of the lost legions.
How would a person trust someone who did that to them? You'd have to make sure they never found out. If you did find out ... you'd never know what else they might have done and hidden ...
@@Nyctophora For humans who often deal with the Emperor, it is just something that comes with the territory. Older lore painted him as more callous, less empathic, and that is the lore where the two lost Legions come from. Newer stuff has sown him in a more favorable light; a man stuck between a rock and a hard place. An Avatar of Humanity, fighting for the future, trying desperately to stave off extinction; and sometimes drastic measures are necessary. That is the way I picture the Emperor. His end goal is noble, but the path he is forced to walk often dips into the shadow. I don't think he gains any pleasure from it, it is just something that must happen for humanity to have a fighting chance. Now come M41-42, it is the end game.
@@daniell1483 I feel like the emperor is not new to conflict he had to deal with conflict almost this whole life a psyche that's what gave him purpose in the first place to save Humanity first.
@@mikecampos1193 I never said he was not familiar with conflict. I was stressing that he has tasked himself with human survival, an almost impossible task in the 40k galaxy. And in the process he has had to take some unsavory paths to power his war machine.
Perhaps the Thousand Sons gene-seed wasn't actually that corrupted, perhaps the cause of the Thousand Sons catastrophic rate of mutation wasn't the gene-seed itself but a side effect of it being based on Magnus who was most closely attuned to the warp and all the subsequent work done on it was infact an attempt to use the gene-seed to counteract this effect.
So too much of the "warp" was in the Thousand Sun gene seed for it's own good. It also could be because Tzeentch was actively messing with the Gene Seed
I believe that a certain chaos god was the only reason for mutations. If Blood Ravens really are lost sons of Magnus it shows how their gene seed is actually pure.
Not sure what number comment I am, but I am here nonetheless. Always happy to start my week off with one of these. Thanks, Remleiz, and keep up the great work!
This could explain why the Soul Drinkers, as well as some other Astartes Chapters, haven’t been able to identify their Primarch from samples of their Geneseed. For example; when the Soul Drinkers were on trial, the Blood Angel Apothecary stated that he couldn’t identify their Geneseed, and that they were not true sons of Rogal Dorn, who they believed they were descends of.
The soul drinkers could be one of the successor chapters of the Imperial fists who were actually the astartes from the 2nd or 11th. They believe they are Dornian but do not have his geneseed.
I like the idea they were Loyalist Alpha Legion. Dorn encountered loyalists AL and killed Alpharius taking his spear. What was the artifact the Soul Drinkers turned on the MechanicuS over? An artifact spear gifted genelocked to the Soul Drinkers chapters and gifted to them by Dorn.
Actually, a bit of a correction regarding TS gene-seed and purging of it's deficiency @40k Theories. SPOILERS FROM FURY OF MAGNUS Alright, so when Magnus infiltrated the Golden Throne, and the Emperor spoke to him, he used the promise of a new legion to be of use to Magnus from his (Magnus) own gene-seed, but purified. Seeing how this legion could be nothing more than the nascent Grey Knights, that in itself confirms that with the possibility that the TS geneseed was being used to create them (with what I suspect, a combination of the Emperor's own genome to stabilise it), Magnus geneseed was actually stable (as the current Grey Knights are incorruptible). By that logic, what if this process was kept recorded to this current age, meaning that the actual genome (with the emperor's input) of the Thousand Sons is actually stable. The other possibility of stability he meant was purity - if we were to argue semantics, the statement that Knowledge is inherently neither good nor bad, that exact same logic can be applied to the gene-seed being akin to knowledge - neither good, nor bad.
The Emperor states to Magnus: “But I will build you a new Legion, a mighty host of warriors greater than any now living. Plans are already in motion to bring about their inception. Soon, you will command warriors the likes of which the galaxy has never seen, whose flesh will be flawless, whose fists are steel and whose hearts are armoured in adamantium!” While it is indeed likely that this is regards to the Grey Knights, the Grey Knights are repeatedly stated to have their geneseed derived directly from the Emperor's own genetic material (as shown with the Pandorax passage in this video). This particular stock of geneseed is even implied to be the same source used to create the proto-astartes such as Leetu, whose geneseed was derived from the Emperor and Erda prior to the creation of the Primarchs themselves (as shown in Saturnine). As such, it seems to me that Magnus would have been appointed to serve as the commander of the Grey Knight "legion" as opposed to being their father. In this way he'd be more reminiscent of a Thunder Warrior Primarch. Also, in Fury of Magnus, the Emperor states to Magnus when offering him a new legion: "Your mind and body are still your own, but the warriors of your Legion are damned. In truth, they were damned the moment the first signs of the flesh change became manifest. Their bodies carry the seeds of their own destruction, and no gene-craft of mine nor the Selenar can undo it. You can come back to me, but your Legion cannot." If the Flesh Change (which first began manifesting within the first 5-10 years of the Great Crusade) could be undone by using fresh supplies of DNA drawn from Magnus himself, similar to how the Emperor's Children cured themselves of the Blight; by drawing fresh genetic stock directly from Fulgrim himself after reuniting with him, then surely they would have attempted to do so? Don't get me wrong, I understand your viewpoint and where you're coming from, but given the Emperor's words to Magnus and the comparisons with the Blight, I don't see how the geneseed of the Thousand Sons themselves could be stabilised in any way when neither the Emperor nor the Selenar could perform such a feat. (Assuming that the Emperor isn't lying, but we have no way of knowing if he is in that particular regard)
It feels funny to me, that they clearly still talk and recognize Horus as a part of history and also as a archtraitor, but I wonder what the 2nd and 11th primarches did that would be, technically, worse than Horus for the sorta punishment that was complete and utter erasure of their histories.
@@ChaseDaOrk3767 The Heresy left the Emperor dead, the Empire severely weakened, and a vast number of living witnesses. They may not have been able to do what was done to the 2nd and 11th.
If I had to venture a guess, I’ve begun to speculate that one or both of the lost primarchs learned some sort of truth that they were definitely not supposed to know. Something that if known to anyone in the imperium other than the emperor or malc, would’ve thrown the whole empire into anarchy even worse than the heresy because of how heretical or hypocritical the truth was. Whatever it was, it was enough to make the the two leave the imperium to side with the rangdan, whom I think may have been a human empire similar to advancement of the interex but much worthy to face the imperium. Which is why so little is known about the xenocide because of what that implies if I am correct I’m my speculations.
Just want to say that your videos are helping me through a very rough spot in my life. I have an illness that makes me be in pain when lying down to sleep, and your videos are the only thing that helps me fall asleep.
The implication I always got from that quote from the Cawl Inferior was that he had already done a trial run of all these Legions and had those boys ready to go, in stasis like the rest of the Primaris. As in from 30k and thier original worlds, although I'm not sure how he would have gotten his mitts on relevant aspirants during the Scourge. Perhaps we will see during the inevitable book series based on the aftermath of the heresy....
It's possible, certainly. But it's equally possible that it's lying, since the Cawl Inferior is implied to be pretty much an AI, and Cawl himself even claims ignorance to some of the things the CI itself has suggested/demanded etc
@@40KTheories true, CI is a weird one as the whole interfacing with brains begs the question is CI actually representative of Cawl at all or just the jars of brains he had spare. Is Cawl even a human anymore or just a gestalt consciousness made up of many brains in jars, trapped C'tan shards and an AI interface to keep a baseline. He swaps them around depending on what he has to do as mentioned in the Cawl novel which as good as it was left way too many questions unanswered. I hope there are some more concrete answers in the future.....
I always thought Sigmar and Archaeon would make sense, particularly Sigmar as he was born on the night of a twin tailed comet (his pod crash landing) and the Emperor ordered all records of his existence to be hidden out of respect for his fallen son, which makes sense as Sigmar united humanity and created the Empire of Man in the fantasy tabletop. This would mean that the fantasy version exists at the same time as 40k, but that makes sense because humanity mostly returned to basic technology after the dark age of technology. Only issue is explaining elves and dwarves, and GW has said this theory is incorrect.
I think the Fists are _actually_ a mix of geneseeds at this point. I think the Black Templars might be from one of the Lost Legions because.... they're _very_ un-fist-ly. They're all PRAY KILL MAIM BURN (and fight in Melee!), as opposed to the other, more sedate sons of Dorn. But the Fists were once extirpated before the War of the Beast, so they took on Black Templars as reinforcements when they were getting rebuilt.
Jaime: pull up that video of the Randann Genocide! See, see, there right there, that's one of them. God what do you think they did? To get Big-E to just disown them. Guest Inquisitor: HERESY!!!!
Methinks that Cawl has been setting up Primaris successors from the lost legions. More on this will emerge. Given that Cawl stated. The legions were meant to work together. All 20 of them. That was The Emperor's design.
Did one of the Lost Primarchs become Malice due to what Horus managed to spat out when Malcador was force choking him? Perhaps he was not trying to say Malcador’s name but was defying Malcador order to not say the names of his lost brothers by trying to utter the name of one of his brothers.
What? I dont understand what you are trying to say. Why would Horus trying to say the name of one of his lost brothers mean that that brother became Malice? As far as I'm aware, Malice is referred to specifically as a Chaos god, not a daemon prince.
I had a similar theory myself somewhat recently! It is interesting how Malice shares the shame number as one of the lost legions and that one of the two lost Primarchs had a name starting with Mal. It’s far fetched and has little to support it but it could make for an interesting fan theory.
@@r.cdahuman7682 The warp can do crazy things. There is also a Theory that the Emperor made the Primarchs souls by imprinting his personality on powerful warp entities. For example, Sangunius's soul being compromised of two angels, one light, one dark, who were Baalite deities. Therefore it might be possible that the Lost Primarchs we're lost due to one gaining enough power in the warp fueled by the destruction, hate, and emotion of those who fought in the Rangdan Xenocide ascended to become Malice. At the same time, the other died trying to stop his brother's corruption and ascension from becoming Malice.
@@updfdrakkell143 ah. I assumed that might be what they meant, but they phrased it kinda poorly(no offense). But no, I doubt it. I doubt he fell to chaos. If the primarch fell, I feel like a lot more of their legion would have been purged, and the emperor might have even purged most of said legion, just to be safe. Thought it is possible, Malice was notably absent during the Horus Hersey, though considering the fact that the 4 main gods *kind of* teamed up, and the very nature of malice being the chaos god of anarchy could explain why he would not work with them, even if it meant the possible death of the emperor. In all though, Its a theory that has no evidence backing it up. I'd like to be true though. I love the idea of Malice. Wish he had more lore. I just don't think it holds any more weight than any other theory. The theory would also only account for one missing primarch, not the other. Which would raise the question, what would the other have done that would have been on par with falling into the worship of the god of anarchy. Considering the type of god malice seems to be, I highly doubt that the primarch who fell would try to corrupt his brother, instead of merely trying to kill them. Its possible however.
A thought comes to me- one of the Lost Primarchs may have been stripped from history for using something from the Long Night that was publicly claimed by the Imperium to be a subject of destruction... and the other Lost Primarch may have been it's target.
I never realized that the 2d and 11th legion had been seeded in the 7th legion as well the 13th. So this makes me wonder if the Soul Drinkers are actually from the 2d or 11th legion as it was revealed their geneseed didnt come from Rogal Dorn.
@@Deridusah yes the Soulspear was what it was called. The story goes that only Imperial Fists could wield it. However, the final book of the Soul Drinkers novels its revealed that the Soul Drinkers are not of Dorn's lineage. So either we've got conflicted canon or...... we've got the opportunity to tease out that perhaps the Soulspear isn't as describe. That maybe the Soulspear is actually the associated weapon of one of the missing Primarchs and that with the establishment of the Second Founding Soul Drinkers they were, unknowingly to themselves, gifted their true gene father's trusted weapon. Afterall, Dorn is never described as fighting with this relic weapon over the course of Great Crusade or Horus Heresy. Now that is some good speculation and lore and pretty damn probable too. The Soul Drinkers are the missing 2d or 11th legion.
@@emersonsullivan9768 It could also be the fact that the Soul Drinkers gene-seed could've been mutated by the warp, thus making them unrecognizable as Dorn's sons. Although it would technically mean that the Soul spear would also stop working for Soul Drinkers, which probably rules out this theory. I guess one of the ways to finding out there origins is seeing if the Imperial fists can wield it.
@@emersonsullivan9768 Alpharius had a spear when Dorn killed him. Giving the Soulspear to loyalist Alpha Legion and calling them Sons of Dorn works with the existing lore.
I've always come to the conclusion that the traitor legions were not guilty of being traitors but given their fate they need to be guilty of something. As such I've always believed one Chapter was guilty of giving aid and comfort to the enemy (maybe they were to kind to the Eldar or some other minor race) and one Chapter showed cowardess and retreated in battle (can you think of anything more awful for a Space Marine chapter to do?)
Or guilty of loosing a major battle in the bookthe master of mankind (i guess its the right name) the Emperor told one of his custodes: -Do you remember what i hate more than treason? -Yes, failure.
It has always been a mystery for me how a WARP PORTAL _JUST_ _APPEARED_ .... IN 1 OF THE MOST PROTECTED PLACES IN THE GALAXY. I thought you'd to make a BUGA BUGA ritual with a psycher. But apparently anyone can just pre-order one.
Damn malcador's voice sound cool af. It's a shame we will never see malcador because he is dead. I would love to see emperor gets revived and then travels back in time to bring malcador in current timeline if he can't resurrect him. But that's my false hope.
I always liked the ideal the 2nd Primarch was a blank. Not just any sort of blank, the equivalent of Magnus the Red as a blank and his sons had blanks the way other chapters have Psykers like librarians etc. He was too powerful to remain in the Imperium so he had to leave with his blank sons as not to damage the Webway or block the Astronomicon, rendering him and his Legion lost to the IoM. His non-blank genesons joined the legions of Dorn and Guillemon as there was no dishonour, only the need to protect the Imperium as it required psykers to function. But he's still out there, circling the galactic edge and trying to fight off Tyranid fleets and crushing enemies of Humanity before they attack the Imperium.
Wow you just discribed my homebrew legion that i was creating (still on paper) I'm stripping 46 ultramarines that i got for cheap on ebay for that porpose i prefer metal minis but the price was to good to turn away, but i also encountered a problem, i have 15 Legion of the damned metal minis that i love, being considered warp fueled space Marines they can never be fielded with the 2 legion Marines.... Can you give your thoughts on that?
Its an interesting thing about the geneseed of the Thousand Sons, in A Thousand Sons when Tzeentch speaks to Magnus, he very much hint if not outright state that the flesh change is his doing. That could imply that the flesh change of the Thousand Sons was not genetic in nature, but more so so warp based in nature, sort of in the same like the plague of nurgle. You can´t cure it no matter how much penicillin you drink, because its not caused by a normal virus or bacteria. That would explain why the Cawl inferior didn´t find any flaws in the geneseed of the thousand sons, because the flaw wasn´t genetic. It would further imply that IF the flesh change was warp induced that Tzeentch for lack of better word hacked into the Geneseed of the Thousand sons, if you could theoretically install a "firewall" maybe through chimeric measures, the geneseed would become stable and keep Tzxeentch out.
I knew about Guilimon's forces having been multiplied by the absorption of his brother's sons, but also Rogal Dorn? Make those like Sigismund and the celestial lions make a bit more sense going off the beaten path. Especially with the 2nd's nature being described as always inquisitive and contemplative. It sounds not unlike Grimaldus' nature.
I love that we know so little about these legions. We get just a few tidbits here and there and I hope we never get the story. The mysteries in 40k are some of the best parts. Make the galaxy seem so much bigger
Off topic, but the most badass thing the inquisition could do would be to attempt to harvest a DNA sample from the Angel while it is in stasis *Because apparently they let it loose then followed the same exact steps the emperor had used to capture it, to capture it again* and from that attempt to replicate enough to found a Legion: 0. A legion that was never intended to exist.
I don't see the problem with some successors diverging significantly from their founder. The Black Templars are frequently thought to be actual sons of Dorn, but I don't see there being a problem. In the same way as the Primarchs all took after aspects of the Emperor's personality, so too do Space Marines take after aspects of their Primarchs. Sure, Sigismund wasn't at all similar to the majority of other Imperial Fists. Nassir Amit wasn't overly similar to most other Blood Angels either, but he was a Son of Sanguinius regardless. Most Blood Angels took on Sanguinius' nobility, beauty and grace but Amit and his ilk took after Sanguinius' rage that he usually kept hidden. When the Legions were divided, it only made sense to group Marines that had similar personalities together. The fair and noble Blood Angels stayed with the original name, the brutal guys went on to become Flesh Tearers and so on. This works the same way with the Fists - the stubborn and patient stayed Imperial Fists, the zealous became Black Templars, the headstrong and youthful Crimson Fists and so on.
Had one of those late-night epiphanies and had to come back and rewatch this video so stay with me here. The official reason given for the lost primarchs and legions had to due with the lost legions of the Roman Empire, the designers liked the idea of lost legions and put it into the game. They also threw out the idea that it gave players a chance to play "thier guys" i.e. home brewed marines without having to stick to the established chapters. Now that was a long time ago, and the lore has changed quite a bit, but the official word is we will never learn who the lost primarchs were. BUT, we have been told the Legions were folded into the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists. While the replacing of the Genenseed is a possibility, that is a TON of Geneseed to replace even from stable stocks like the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists. Now suppising Dorn and Guilliman did not use these guys as canon fodder, and they did not have their Geneseed replaced, you have to imagine that those casualties had their progenoids removed when possible and used to create more marines, especially in the case of the Fists who did a LOT of fighting during the Heresy and the immediate aftermath. Both Legions were apparently still large enough to be broken up into several chapters in the first founding. It stands to reason that some of these chapters were built, at least in part with marines from the 2nd and 11th Legions. Now a lot of people make their own Chapters and I would hazard to guess that outside of the two Angels Legions, the Fists and the Ultramarines are probably the two most popular Legions to take a successor from. Maybe, and this could be a stretch given GW's hit-and-miss fan friendliness, but it could be, having the lore state that the 2nd and 11th were folded into the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines was a way to leave that door open for players to play "their guys" and have them be from the lost legions. Seriously, given the loses of the Horus Heresy it seems illogical that the Geneseed of those marines who were given this sceond chance would be thrown out.
I have a theory that while the gene seed may've been taken and replaced, the material from the original source of the warrior would've mixed with the new gene seed to make a new stock. I read somewhere that the material of some successor chapters have mixed somehow with the material from other unknown chapter sources. They couldn't completely get rid of the material from the lost legions so they just classified it as a genetic deviation to keep people from looking too closely.
I've always wondered if, because the Emperor knew Magnus far before he knew any other Primarch, during his psychic conversations with Magnus he realized his ambitions and curiosities and decided to engineer a "backdoor" into their genetic makeup in case they got too curious (which they did). It's one thing to have 1,000 Thousand Sons going against Dorn. It's another thing entirely if there are 30-40,000 Thousand Sons as traitors. Yeah, I know the Sons probably wouldn't have betrayed the Emperor if Horus hadn't ordered Russ in, but there's always that chance and the Sons were just too much of a wildcard. Maybe I'm off or missed something, I dunno.
I’ve always wondered if the modern space marines from Dorn’s gene line are actually chimeric because the Soul Drinkers helped rebuild the Imperial Fists when they got wiped out.
Video suggestion: what would have happened to Conrad curse if John gramatica had use the fulgurite spear on him instead of vulkan? Would curse be "healed" or "cured" from his madness potentially? In the book "The unremembered empire"
@@weldonwin wait, the va part of that was what you were concerned with, and not the American pro video game streamer part? It's a joke. It's a bit from his latest video where he plays among us.
A product of their upbringing... Im sure if they were raised with the Emperor it wouldnt be anything BUT true. Their formative years and their learning as wee little geneticly enhanced toddlers formed a deep trauma in them. If they werent in (Curze's case) a giant pile of murders and gangsters and in Angron's case - modified with the butchers nail and used as entertainment in slaying men all day long... They'd be very different
@@taten-jinmu718 I'd say that Angron did indeed appear to be some type of empathic healer before the nails. But let's not forget Curze's first act upon seeing a human being was to effing eat him, so... at least one of those two definitely hatched out wrong.
Yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were from the Lost Legions. Remember, the Carmine Blades were officially classified as an Ultramarine successor for millennia until they discovered they were actually Blood Angel successors.
On the topic of the 20th legion mutations, I believe it would be a later trait. In the Alpharius book he specifically states that his chapter's gene seed is exceptionally stable.
@@40KTheories So the gene seed in the Terran vaults should also be stable as it is pre-heresy stock. Excluding any Alpha Legion tricks that are always a possibility.
Its best to be a little careful when discussing the Cawl Inferior. Since in the Cawl novel, Cawl has stated he doesn't want to be Fabricator-General of Mars. He says he knows for a fact it would cause a civil war, besides becoming Fabricator-General would limit him and make him an administrator rather than the freedom of being a Grand Magos. Cawl says the next time he meets Guilliman in person, he will examine the Inferior to find out why it is saying these things. But if you listen to the entire conversation, the last thing the Inferior says before he asks Guilliman to make Cawl leader of Mars and use all the Primarch's gene seed is, 'Security Protocols enabled.' I suspect that Cawl Inferior has created its own security program when dealing with Guilliman. It repeats the same arguments and listens to Guilliman's responses. If Guilliman agrees or his arguments are poor (very unlike him). Then the Inferior would immediately alert Cawl of a problem with the Primarch. As how the EoM would allow the gene-seed to remain in the now brain washed surviving 2nd and 11th Astartes? Well the Horus Hersey happened very shortly after the two were lost and forgotten. The EoM and Malcador also didn't plan on dying at the end of the Hersey. So any plans to keep 2nd and 11th gene seed out, never happened.
@@40KTheories I wouldn't call it a lie, just what it is, a test. Stimuli administered to a test subject and recording/reporting on the subjects responses to said stimuli. Though I am sure Guilliman wouldn't like the idea of him being consider one of Cawl's test subjects.
My personal pet theory that's unlikely to be true is that one of the Lost Primarchs was on Terra helping with the Webway Project and some kind of accident perma killed them or made them lost to the Emperor. Emperor covers it up that he tried to assassinate him, but the other Lost Primarch refuses to believe it and execute his brother's Legion, so the Wolves are sicked. Actual answer is probably there's no canon story behind it.
I honestly don't know what to think: on the one hand, everything relating to the lost primarchs should have been destroyed but on the other, their geneseeds might still be alive and well. I guess we just have to wait and see what Cawl does. On the topic of using traitor geneseed, considering how many loyalist chapters have fallen, I feel like it wouldn't really matter.
Considering the chances, their may be that some chapters have a tiny bit of it in their gene stocks, but who knows, I'm still using a hybrid of the second and salamanders for my homebrew chapter
Something to keep in mind is that "geneseed" is not static. The genetic makeup of the host. The genetic makeup and service history of the progenoid glands previous owner. Warp exposure. Those are all factors for "geneseed in circulation". The emperors original samples are propably the purest there are. So pure, not even the upbringing of the primarch had any effect on them. When the emperor and genelabs said "we can not cure the fleshchange", did they speak of curing the current legionnaires, preventing future ones from having it, or both?
What if the gene seed of the 2nd and 11th legion circulating in the Ultramarines' and Imperial Fists legions (and later chapters) that has kept those lineages relatively stable? Compare the "inbreeding" of other chapters and their insular gene stocks to the idea of the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists chapters having a wider variety of material that has kept such "inbreeding" flaws out for so long.
The alternative gene seed would explain the reason why the Soul Drinkers chapter believed themselves to be descendants of Rogal Dorn, but later found out they were derived from a different, unknown gene-sire.
One of their authors recently said no because there has to be some mystery in the lore, if you want a picture of a world creator who explains things he doesn't need to look at DBZ and toriyama. He limited a multi-verse to like 12 universes. Went from world to galaxy and made like less than 10 characters for it
There's one fact you did not take into account, the Soul Drinkers, who for most of their existence believed to be succesors of the Imperial fists. However, unlike their battle brothers, they were subject to unique traits and somewhat mutations, and that's without the fact that their lineage tests turned out to be inconclusive. If they were in fact succesors of the 2nd or 13th legions, it would somewhat prove that their geneseed was still being used to create space marines. Either that or the material inherited from their genefathers tainted their new progenoid glands when they were swapped.
The chaos God of tzeencth was able to turn one of soul drinker to have spider legs the same thing he did to the thousand Sons with the flash change are using the psychic potential in them
Did anyone else suddenly wonder what the hell is wrong with the Dark Angels geneseed that they were not working in production? Since Cawl Inferior does not mention the 1st Legion in that list.
@@Deridus I mean, there are two options here, right? Either there is some lurking flaw in the geneseed of the Dark Angels we don't know about, or somehow the 1st just doesn't have any geneseed tithe anywhere at all. Neither says particularly good things about the state of the Dark Angels.
@@BTMadness You have a solid point, there. Being perhaps the quintessential Fleet-Based chapter (Take that, Angry Marines!), there is much I would like to know about how thier gene stocks interact with all of their recruitment world populations.
I think one of the Primarchs was yet another knightly figure, perhaps the "Templar" or the "Crusader". This Primarch's legionaries were merged into the Imperial Fists due to their similarity to Sigismund. This is why they thought they were an Imperial Fists successor, only to learn that they are not descended from Rogal Dorn and their true Primarch is indeterminate.
I have a homebrew chapter that's descended from the 11th. Their dying out and their primary goal is to find new source of geneseed from their lost primarch to restore their own, which is heavily degraded and showing multiple signs of failing.
It's kind of weird to think that any legion could have done something so much worse than the civil war initiated by Horus and the traitor legions (leading to the Empire being completely stagnant as they are currently locked in endless, unwinnable wars against a mixture of abstract concepts and alien species that will eventually lead to a slow, painful attrition until all that remains is a bunch of rocks stripped of biomass and possibly some Necrons as the Tyranids wander off to consume another galaxy) that would warrant being completely expunged from all records so as an alternative maybe they were just complete failures. The Emperor was pretty cavalier about the stuff he was mixing in with his own genetic material, which is part of why so many of the legions had weird quirks and genetic abnormalities, so maybe the two that have no records for their existence were just too weak to survive. I can't imagine the Emperor's ego allowing him to admit any kind of failure so it makes sense that either he or his followers would have covered it up.
I know I’m probably late to the party but if the 2nd and 11th Legions were absorbed into the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines this would explain why the Soul Drinkers being a 2nd founding Chapter of the Imperial Fists but would later have it revealed not to be a Imperial Fists successor
@@40KTheories that is a possibility after all the did infiltrate the Raven Guard whilst a company of Imperial Fists were present. But after they were caught the Raven Guard were tested and I’m sure Rogal Dorn would test after the Battle of Pluto
i rly kinda wish they would reveal both missing primarchs and make one of them not rly a traitor, as much somebody who fucked off cuz he did wht jagatai wanted to do
Mutations had to have been introduced later with the Alpha legion, likely after they ransacked off with the prime gene seed Croax got from the Emperor. The forgeworld books all state the Alpha Legion was amongst the most stable and had the highest induction rates for new space Marines.
I was going to write a story about one of the lost primarchs, I was gonna make him land on a human world that still maintained much of it's technology as world devoted to scientific study & advancement & that at heart the primarch was a bit of a pacifist who question the emperor's plans for the great crusade and got himself exiled in the end.
Soul Drinkers. Thought to be of Imperial Fist stock, but were informed they were not, despite detailed chapter records. Dorn kept his warriors with like kinds. Crazy zealots in Sigisminds group, so on and so forth. Maybe legionares of the 2nd/11th were in their own cohort incase they need to be purged, did well, were forgotten about until Dorn disappeared, then given their own chapter in recognition of their deeds, becoming the Soul Drinkers. It would also explain why no one knew who their primarch was.
I find it interesting that it can almost be taken by malcadors words like the primarchs fled, or abandoned their posts in a sense. "The Legionaries they left behind, leaderless and forsaken" however this can be seen as the primarchs also being dead. However many point to Russ comment about astartes vs astartes, however let's recall here that malcador whipped the memories of ALL the primarchs in regard to most info of their brothers. It's my opinion this is left open and it's possible u we see more soon after cawls "experiments" and "experimental implantation" with the 2 and 11 legions gene seed for primaris.
I think its possible that some lost legions gene seed did get mixed with Imperial Fist and Ultramarines. It's possible someone could have missed the paperwork saying a certain soldier wasnt a repurposed marine. This kind of makes me think of the Soul Drinkers (I think thats the right one, the one that says its Dorn but was proven not). Would also explain some Ultra successors goin rouge or to choas) But it kinda also explains the Black Templars and there over zealousness too. Possibly one brother fell to religion and the other to choas (some one made a Malice point that I liked) both bad at the time to warrant erasure. Big E couldnt hide the Horus Heresy like he could the other 2 legions so that why the no erasing, plus ya gotta know who your fighting.
You forget, Inquisitor, about the Soul Drinkers. During their trial aboard the Phalanx, the Imperial Fists apothecaries came to the conclusion that the Soul Drinkers were not of Imperial Fists lineage. The apothecaries also stated that they “could not say” who the Soul Drinkers were derived from, and that their genetic sequences did not match any of the known Primarchs. This leads one to believe that the gene-seed of the Second and Eleventh Legions had mixed in the gene vaults of the Imperial Fists and the Ultramarines. As all data about the sources of this gene-seed was intentionally purged, over the millennia it became viewed as just more gene-seed of the Seventh and Thirteenth. Gene-seed is a beyond precious commodity in the Imperium, so it, much like the legionnaires who bore it, was most likely deemed too valuable to just be discarded. This is especially the case in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy and the Great Scouring. The Imperial Fists alone had such devastating losses done to them at the Iron Cage, that it took them *19 years* to fully recover. If one takes into account further actions such as the War of the Beast, the Black Crusades, the wars on Armageddon, and Throne knows how many more bloody engagements the sons of Dorn and Guilliman were in over the next ten millennia, one can be quite sure that maintaining healthy gene-seed stocks has always been a top priority for them. I enjoyed this video, brother, but I just wanted to highlight some possibilities you might have missed with this assessment. Keep up the good work :)
Slight correction; Gethsemar said that they "could not say" which Primarch the geneseed of the Soul Drinkers belonged to, because "The Sanguinary Priests had yet to complete their discourse on the matter", so if they had more time to study it, they probably could have worked it out. :) As it stands, there is a surprising amount of evidence to suggest that the Soul Drinkers utilise Alpha Legion geneseed (the random mutations, which are in line with Alpha Legion genetic flaws, plus the genetic link to the Soulspear which could quite possibly be the Pale Spear of Alpharius for instance)
@@40KTheories very interesting! I have to say though that the Soul Drinkers don’t exhibit the particular nature of the sons of Alpharius Omegon. In fact their specialty in direct orbital assault puts them quite at odds with the sons of the Hydra. Though it is curious how the Fists would obtain Alpha Legion gene-seed to have a successor chapter come forth from that stock. Where on the flip side of that argument we know that the 7th did take warriors and *possibly* gene-seed from the 2nd and 11th. How would the Alpha Legion stocks get into Imperial Fists hands? Why would they even take them? Was it a ploy by Alpharius to plant a chapter of warriors in each of his brothers’ legions, or was it a chapter of Black Shields who stayed loyal to the Imperium rather than there fathers? As always with the Alpha Legion, that possibility raises more questions than it answers.
The idea is that following the battle of Pluto, and Dorn's slaying of Alpharius, Dorn took the Pale Spear as a trophy. However, Dorn - ever the pragmatist, realised that the weapon was far too dangerous to let the traitors regain it, petitioned for the creation of a chapter to stand guard over to it, where they would be officially documented as Imperial Fists (and using AL genestock specifically, since the Pale Spear is also implied to be gene-coded to Alpha Legionnaires, much like how the Soulspear was gene-coded to "sons of Dorn" even though we later find out the Soul Drinkers are apparently of a differing lineage.) As for the mindset being different, you could argue the same for a lot of chapters. The Silver Skulls are very much unlike the Ultramarines for instance, being more superstitious and less practical. The Executioners are more brutal and aggressive than the Imperial Fists. The Wolfspear love utilising terror tactics etc. As such, it's not unreasonable to assume that a traitor legion successor could also sport a different mindset.
@@40KTheories That is fair enough I suppose. But getting back to my main point there are numerous chapters that claim to be founded by the 7th and 13th that have no actual hard data to prove they are of Guilliman’s or Dorn’s stock. Now that we know that these legions have both missing legion warriors in their ranks prior to Ullanor, it does make sense that some of these wayward sons survived to give rise to chapters with such shrouded lineages.
It's possible, certainly. But it's also just as likely the shrouded records are due to the incompetence of the Administratum. Remember, the Administratum originally classified the Carmine Blades (back when they were called the Swords of Haldroth); a Blood Angels successor - as an Ultramarines successor
I wonder if there’s cases of aspirants washing out midway through the geneseed implantation process. Like there’s humans running around or chapter serfs that are at this midway point of being a regular human and being an astartes. The Calgar comics had a character who had washed out of the trials and was being paid by rich folks to train their boys to attempt the astartes opening tests. Dunno if he had washed out before or after full or partial geneseed implantation, although he did kinda look tall.
I believe as the Astartes of the Lost Legions gradually died off, their progenoid gland was harvested as it would be from any fallen battle brother, but would afterwards be discarded. As you noted, the Imperium was capable of producing geneseed at that time at a much faster rate than the current day Imperium, capable enough to even replace those fallen Astartes geneseed with the geneseed of their new parent Legion into a new Aspirant. Thus insuring the geneseed of the Lost Legions would be expunged in time through combat loses.
My Space Marine faction has always been one of the lost Primarchs' legions who went into hiding with them and is now returning. Didn't realize those Legionaries would have been still serving the Imperium all this time. Huh... Will have to rework some things.
I think their glands were swapped, otherwise you would find some marines from the imperial fist successor chapters not to have their flaws right? If they purged all data is not like they marked the marines from the lost so they would not reuse their geneseed
It's why the ultramarines have so many unique successors that are "TOTALLY 13TH LEGION SUCCESSORS GUYS DONT LOOK INTO THIS"
And probably Imperial Fists too. Seriously, what's the _deal_ with the Soul Drinkers, Black Templars, and Excoriators? That's not very Fist of them lol.
(Excoriators are basically blood angels successors, except with no Blood Angel geneseed and they're Fist Succesors.)
@@fluffywolfo3663 i mean..... the black templars are on the universe's longest Penance Crusade, and they are following Sigismund rather than Lord Dadorable
it makes sense from a practical standpoint, we have a bunch of geenseed and are in desperate need of troops, so we just use all this spare geenseed laying around put fingers in our ears pretend they are Guilliman's or Dorn's kids, conceal their histories and keep an extra eye on them.
I always took the Black Templars to be like an inversion of the Fists more calm and rational behavior and deployment. Or just Sigismund. As far as the gene seed it is anyones guess. Imagine Malcador could have planned for that by putting those soldiers together in certain spots where they would not be reclaimed. Sure it is possible that the seed is in use now. How much do we really know about Gene seed stuff though? How it is gathered, how it is stored and how is it checked.
Yeah I would put malcador's over the top reaction to speaking the lost primarchs name to oneside. The geneseed is so poorly understood anyway that I doubt they could recognise the difference between stocks unless specifically looking. So I doubt they replaced it. Its possible even some of the ultramarines are actually from a different primarch. Crazy if true.
''The primarchs were designed to be far more cognitively sound than other humans''
that went well
Ignoring Obvious Examples like Angron and Konrad I point to the petulance of Perturabo who could never let of a grudge no matter how minor and stubbornly refused to change battle tactics in spite of their obvious shortcomings. Their's also the clear example of Lorgar who seems to be both a lost soul seeking guidance and a sociopath who wants to justify his horrible actions. This is pretty clear proof that at least some Primarchs were never cognitively sound at all.
You could argue about nature vs nurture in this case.
Perturabo was an artistic savant and an engineering genius, regardless of his petulance.
Lorgar's psychological instabilities stem from the fact that he was heavily abused by Kor-Pharon as a child, regularly scolded and beaten, even when Lorgar wanted to make his "father" proud by showing him he could read.
@@40KTheories I'd never thought about how it could be a nature vs nurture thing. It could be that they were as mentally sound as you could make a person, and they were raised in a way that led to them becoming who they became
@@40KTheories I realized that Bruva as Malcador sounds like a drunken Whammudes.
Also, does the Tyranid Hive Mind affect the Eldar Webway like the Warp? Can the hive mind be considered a god?
@@akumaking1 I wonder about the webway, but apart from being a gigantic Blank field in the warp and enabling psyonic communication of the Tyranid hive fleets, I have not heard/read any other supernatual/hypermundane abilities of said hive-mind.
As Cawl stated in Dark Imperium, "The warriors were not at fault, the science was not at fault, the Primarchs were". I think the gene seed of the lost and the purged, was preserved. Also, as far as the Thousand Sons goes, remember, Revuel Arvida had his gene seed purified by the soul shard of Magnus. This act could have given the Emperor the ability to create stable thousand sons successors, i.e. the blood ravens.
And yet long after Janus' geneseed had been purified and the Grey Knights were sent to Titan, the Emperor still claimed that the Flesh Change was incapable of being expunged.
(Side note, if the Blood Ravens were Thousand Sons successors, then given the events that happened in Ashes of Prospero, they would have all succumbed to the Rubric. But while the geneseed of the Thousand Sons awakens the psychic potential of those that have it, there is *no* such genetic trait found in Blood Raven geneseed. Their index astartes articles even state outright that the reason for them having such a high number of psykers is _not_ genetic)
@@40KTheories Maybe Inquisitor. But we all know the emperor has taken "liberties" with the truth before...
@@40KTheories if davian Thule said what he found on planet kronus.....we could have got an idea...or even the actual origin of blood Ravens.....thier original legion and primarch......why.....davian Thule..... (TT)
@@ramsuryaprasath1381 Because whatever he found he immediately destroyed and swore to never tell anyone what it is he found.
@@zenoblues7787 yes but he sounded so panicked and shocked like he came to know the truth and real origin .....but unfortunately venerable dreadnought davian Thule died on the defence of cadia
A comment to appease the machine spirit of the CZcams algorithm!
Apply the sacred oils first, you fool! THEN comment, as I have here, and THEN burn the incense----crap, I'm out of sacred incense!
@@jacobweaver384 a servitor will be arriving soon with more, let's prepare the machine oils while we wait
@@luckystranger4312 make sure the servitor has been properly sanctified too. Did thou read the prayer of the book of DOS?
You do the work of the Omnissiah.
So Google is 40k Mechanicum! Confirmed!
Maybe the real Lost Primarchs were the friends we made along the way.
Its Alpharius
But friendship is magic and magic is *Heresy*
@@zenoblues7787 that makes me not trust the Chaplain in the Angels of Death teaser, he talked about the power of friendship. He's a side character and for some reason I think something is gonna happen with him
So THAT’S why I can’t find them. They’re nonexistent
I think what happened to the 2 lost primarchs was simple, they landed on a xenos world, and were inducted into the respective xenos race. Perhaps they rose to conquer and lead their xenos race, or the xenos race indoctrinated and used them as a tool like the Emperor intended to do so himself. A primarch that fights for a non-human race, would support that first quote you dropped from Malcador - it would have threatened everything the Great Crusade stood for.
that does sound very plausible, though they are known as the lost and the purged so it would suggest that only one of them would have such a fate
@@Anonymouzor lost can mean multiple things, not just like, being lost. Could mean lost to humanity, in a sense that they don't believe they are human anymore, indoctrinated to become something alien.
@@LoLleavemealonePLZ I recall that in some book or short story Fulgrim recalls on of those brothers (I thinks that was second) and mentions that he didn't have a sense of humor. And form the context it was clear that he was a part of crusade for some time.
While a good theory, this seems contradicted by statements other primarchs made about the Lost
My thought on the Lost Primarchs is thus: they were non-expansionist. They looked at what the Emperor was doing, and said no.
I believe the second and eleventh legions were.....[SIGNAL LOST]
This message has been restricted by the Imperial Inquisition. For the Emperor.
Ooo. Lost primarch vidoes. Always appreciated Lore master. Emperor bless mate, I hope you have a great day. Already know the video is gonna be great.
Shit like that image at 0:43 is the reason I love 40k. We can have bad ass super soldiers who can spit acid and eat metal, space wizards who bend the very fabric of reality, kleptomaniacal skeletons made out of living metal which are potentially older than our planet, and shit like *that image.* All in the same universe. Gog I love 40k.
Necrons are not older than our planet. Not even close.
@@empireempire3545 I know, I'm exaggerating.
@@empireempire3545 though to be pedantic, we don't actually know exactly when the necrons first underwent bio-transfurance. It could have been billions of years ago, as we also don't know how long the war in heaven lasted.
The Necron’s long sleep was at least 60 million years long. So Necrons are at least older than the earliest fish and likely jellyfish, but not necessarily older than the earliest corals.
@@____________838 yes, but how long was the war in heaven and when was bio-transfurance undertaken?
My theory is still that one of the lost legions was taken over by the Rangdan (and thus purged) and the other actively sided with Xenos, possibly the Eldar, before somehow being lost to all parties, possibly as they fled the Space Wolves' retribution
I always assumed they wiped each other out since they both seemed to disappear during the Second Rangdan Xenocide at more or less the same time.
@@zenoblues7787 the original legion civil war??
@@zenoblues7787 My headcanon is that one of them ("Kurosh") had such bad losses against the Rangdan that he started skimping on the mental conditioning of his Astartes to quickly increase numbers, leading to them being easily mind controlled by the Rangdan. This would resolve the issue of marine vs marine being unthinkable yet the Space Wolves had experience in it--they killed marines' *bodies* but at that point they weren't truly marines anymore.
@@zenoblues7787 The other ("Taliesin") landed on a feudal world being subtly ruled by a class of benevolent Eldar, leading him to eventually being censured for refusing to exterminate non-aggressive xenos. Obviously when his past history with xenos in his upbringing is revealed he's considered tainted.
WAIT. Allied with the Eldar? 🤔
I've had a hypothesis for a while that the Black Templars aren't actually of Dornian stock, given how different they are in character from their supposed brothers.
And the Executioners.
I'm of the opinion when Dorn told Sigismund he was "not his son, and never will be" he was being perhaps more literal than we thought.
@@zenoblues7787 oof
Some sort of World Eater cultural exchange program, perhaps?
The BT have a black and white herardly, that reminds me of Malal. When Horus was choking he cried the probable name of one of The Lost ones, he shouted " Mal...al".We know that the holy number of Malal is 11....11 as one of the lost legions.
Knowing the Imperium, it's probably mislayed it somewhere, then forgot it.
Why do I have a feeling chaos knows who they are.
I just cannot unhear Alfabusa's drunken Malcador.
Same
I... can't remember. Which episode?
@@Deridus Same. Any help guys? Also, has anyone heard from Alfabusa lately?
@@michellewilt4479 he was on warhams (ork version) a little while back.
@@Deridus cool. Good to know.
I've been looking forward to this. You made my weekend, Lord Inquisitor Remleiz. Thank you.
Hi Emperor any chance you could check out my Imperium tribute?
Transhuman surgery that is then wiped from one's mind certainly sounds like an Emperor sort of thing to do.
How would a person trust someone who did that to them? You'd have to make sure they never found out. If you did find out ... you'd never know what else they might have done and hidden ...
@@Nyctophora For humans who often deal with the Emperor, it is just something that comes with the territory. Older lore painted him as more callous, less empathic, and that is the lore where the two lost Legions come from. Newer stuff has sown him in a more favorable light; a man stuck between a rock and a hard place. An Avatar of Humanity, fighting for the future, trying desperately to stave off extinction; and sometimes drastic measures are necessary.
That is the way I picture the Emperor. His end goal is noble, but the path he is forced to walk often dips into the shadow. I don't think he gains any pleasure from it, it is just something that must happen for humanity to have a fighting chance. Now come M41-42, it is the end game.
@@daniell1483 I feel like the emperor is not new to conflict he had to deal with conflict almost this whole life a psyche that's what gave him purpose in the first place to save Humanity first.
@@mikecampos1193 I never said he was not familiar with conflict. I was stressing that he has tasked himself with human survival, an almost impossible task in the 40k galaxy. And in the process he has had to take some unsavory paths to power his war machine.
Perhaps the Thousand Sons gene-seed wasn't actually that corrupted, perhaps the cause of the Thousand Sons catastrophic rate of mutation wasn't the gene-seed itself but a side effect of it being based on Magnus who was most closely attuned to the warp and all the subsequent work done on it was infact an attempt to use the gene-seed to counteract this effect.
That’s what I always thought as well
So too much of the "warp" was in the Thousand Sun gene seed for it's own good.
It also could be because Tzeentch was actively messing with the Gene Seed
I believe that a certain chaos god was the only reason for mutations. If Blood Ravens really are lost sons of Magnus it shows how their gene seed is actually pure.
Or maybe they were suffering the flesh change because they were literally using sorcery to maintain their boltors.
Not sure what number comment I am, but I am here nonetheless. Always happy to start my week off with one of these. Thanks, Remleiz, and keep up the great work!
Artificial perpetuals.
Vulcan: ah yeah about that.
This could explain why the Soul Drinkers, as well as some other Astartes Chapters, haven’t been able to identify their Primarch from samples of their Geneseed.
For example; when the Soul Drinkers were on trial, the Blood Angel Apothecary stated that he couldn’t identify their Geneseed, and that they were not true sons of Rogal Dorn, who they believed they were descends of.
The soul drinkers could be one of the successor chapters of the Imperial fists who were actually the astartes from the 2nd or 11th. They believe they are Dornian but do not have his geneseed.
I like the idea they were Loyalist Alpha Legion.
Dorn encountered loyalists AL and killed Alpharius taking his spear.
What was the artifact the Soul Drinkers turned on the MechanicuS over?
An artifact spear gifted genelocked to the Soul Drinkers chapters and gifted to them by Dorn.
Actually, a bit of a correction regarding TS gene-seed and purging of it's deficiency @40k Theories.
SPOILERS FROM FURY OF MAGNUS
Alright, so when Magnus infiltrated the Golden Throne, and the Emperor spoke to him, he used the promise of a new legion to be of use to Magnus from his (Magnus) own gene-seed, but purified. Seeing how this legion could be nothing more than the nascent Grey Knights, that in itself confirms that with the possibility that the TS geneseed was being used to create them (with what I suspect, a combination of the Emperor's own genome to stabilise it), Magnus geneseed was actually stable (as the current Grey Knights are incorruptible). By that logic, what if this process was kept recorded to this current age, meaning that the actual genome (with the emperor's input) of the Thousand Sons is actually stable. The other possibility of stability he meant was purity - if we were to argue semantics, the statement that Knowledge is inherently neither good nor bad, that exact same logic can be applied to the gene-seed being akin to knowledge - neither good, nor bad.
The Emperor states to Magnus:
“But I will build you a new Legion, a mighty host of warriors greater than any now living. Plans are already in motion to bring about their inception. Soon, you will command warriors the likes of which the galaxy has never seen, whose flesh will be flawless, whose fists are steel and whose hearts are armoured in adamantium!”
While it is indeed likely that this is regards to the Grey Knights, the Grey Knights are repeatedly stated to have their geneseed derived directly from the Emperor's own genetic material (as shown with the Pandorax passage in this video). This particular stock of geneseed is even implied to be the same source used to create the proto-astartes such as Leetu, whose geneseed was derived from the Emperor and Erda prior to the creation of the Primarchs themselves (as shown in Saturnine). As such, it seems to me that Magnus would have been appointed to serve as the commander of the Grey Knight "legion" as opposed to being their father. In this way he'd be more reminiscent of a Thunder Warrior Primarch.
Also, in Fury of Magnus, the Emperor states to Magnus when offering him a new legion:
"Your mind and body are still your own, but the warriors of your Legion are damned. In truth, they were damned the moment the first signs of the flesh change became manifest. Their bodies carry the seeds of their own destruction, and no gene-craft of mine nor the Selenar can undo it. You can come back to me, but your Legion cannot."
If the Flesh Change (which first began manifesting within the first 5-10 years of the Great Crusade) could be undone by using fresh supplies of DNA drawn from Magnus himself, similar to how the Emperor's Children cured themselves of the Blight; by drawing fresh genetic stock directly from Fulgrim himself after reuniting with him, then surely they would have attempted to do so?
Don't get me wrong, I understand your viewpoint and where you're coming from, but given the Emperor's words to Magnus and the comparisons with the Blight, I don't see how the geneseed of the Thousand Sons themselves could be stabilised in any way when neither the Emperor nor the Selenar could perform such a feat. (Assuming that the Emperor isn't lying, but we have no way of knowing if he is in that particular regard)
It feels funny to me, that they clearly still talk and recognize Horus as a part of history and also as a archtraitor, but I wonder what the 2nd and 11th primarches did that would be, technically, worse than Horus for the sorta punishment that was complete and utter erasure of their histories.
Yeah, I kinda wondered why that might be, like what did the 2 Lost primarchs have done that would make Horus's betrayal seem less horrible.
@@ChaseDaOrk3767 The Heresy left the Emperor dead, the Empire severely weakened, and a vast number of living witnesses. They may not have been able to do what was done to the 2nd and 11th.
@@Dennis-vh8tz I guess that makes sense.
If I had to venture a guess, I’ve begun to speculate that one or both of the lost primarchs learned some sort of truth that they were definitely not supposed to know. Something that if known to anyone in the imperium other than the emperor or malc, would’ve thrown the whole empire into anarchy even worse than the heresy because of how heretical or hypocritical the truth was. Whatever it was, it was enough to make the the two leave the imperium to side with the rangdan, whom I think may have been a human empire similar to advancement of the interex but much worthy to face the imperium. Which is why so little is known about the xenocide because of what that implies if I am correct I’m my speculations.
Love the videos amazing for my drive home every day when I get off work keep it up
Just want to say that your videos are helping me through a very rough spot in my life. I have an illness that makes me be in pain when lying down to sleep, and your videos are the only thing that helps me fall asleep.
The implication I always got from that quote from the Cawl Inferior was that he had already done a trial run of all these Legions and had those boys ready to go, in stasis like the rest of the Primaris. As in from 30k and thier original worlds, although I'm not sure how he would have gotten his mitts on relevant aspirants during the Scourge. Perhaps we will see during the inevitable book series based on the aftermath of the heresy....
It's possible, certainly. But it's equally possible that it's lying, since the Cawl Inferior is implied to be pretty much an AI, and Cawl himself even claims ignorance to some of the things the CI itself has suggested/demanded etc
@@40KTheories true, CI is a weird one as the whole interfacing with brains begs the question is CI actually representative of Cawl at all or just the jars of brains he had spare. Is Cawl even a human anymore or just a gestalt consciousness made up of many brains in jars, trapped C'tan shards and an AI interface to keep a baseline. He swaps them around depending on what he has to do as mentioned in the Cawl novel which as good as it was left way too many questions unanswered. I hope there are some more concrete answers in the future.....
@@40KTheories Plausible deniability for Cawl while CI pursues the most controversial experiments?
great video my friend!
I notice you used the word "the"....
MALAL AND SIGMAR AS THE MISSING PRIMARCHS CONFIRMED!!!
It's actually Grombrindal and Nagash :P
Lies it is clearly Settra and Archaon
Lies. Queek Headtaker
@@solvdrage1456 Yes, yes. Must-will thieve-secure more warpstones.
I always thought Sigmar and Archaeon would make sense, particularly Sigmar as he was born on the night of a twin tailed comet (his pod crash landing) and the Emperor ordered all records of his existence to be hidden out of respect for his fallen son, which makes sense as Sigmar united humanity and created the Empire of Man in the fantasy tabletop. This would mean that the fantasy version exists at the same time as 40k, but that makes sense because humanity mostly returned to basic technology after the dark age of technology. Only issue is explaining elves and dwarves, and GW has said this theory is incorrect.
"Dragging all 20 gestation pods into the depths of warp space......."
Technically, there were 21 Primarchs right?
21 primarchs in 20 pods, because one pod held twins
@@gruffen4 Both were Alpharius, because that's the name printed on the pod?
I think the Fists are _actually_ a mix of geneseeds at this point. I think the Black Templars might be from one of the Lost Legions because.... they're _very_ un-fist-ly. They're all PRAY KILL MAIM BURN (and fight in Melee!), as opposed to the other, more sedate sons of Dorn. But the Fists were once extirpated before the War of the Beast, so they took on Black Templars as reinforcements when they were getting rebuilt.
This could explain the soul drinkers chapter gene-seed as it was stated their gene-seed didn't come from dorn
Joe Rogan voice "It's entirely possible"
It's entirely possible that a buddy of mine had some venison genes seed. Jaime, can you pull that up?
Jaime: pull up that video of the Randann Genocide! See, see, there right there, that's one of them. God what do you think they did? To get Big-E to just disown them.
Guest Inquisitor: HERESY!!!!
Ha- I was gonna comment, but this one wins.
"Entire possible I become a corporate mainstream shill"
"you tried DMT?"
Methinks that Cawl has been setting up Primaris successors from the lost legions.
More on this will emerge.
Given that Cawl stated. The legions were meant to work together. All 20 of them.
That was The Emperor's design.
Second imperial civil war involving primaris space marines anyone?
@@Destroyer_V0 The Primaris Heresy, coming this summer!
Remleiz dropping theory vids is like a gift from the Emperor
I love Alfa reading for malchador. I hope we see more collab between 40k theories and TTS
Did one of the Lost Primarchs become Malice due to what Horus managed to spat out when Malcador was force choking him? Perhaps he was not trying to say Malcador’s name but was defying Malcador order to not say the names of his lost brothers by trying to utter the name of one of his brothers.
What? I dont understand what you are trying to say. Why would Horus trying to say the name of one of his lost brothers mean that that brother became Malice?
As far as I'm aware, Malice is referred to specifically as a Chaos god, not a daemon prince.
@@r.cdahuman7682 I get what he means. One of the brothers could have bein the first to fall and fell to such a degree so easily that he was erased.
I had a similar theory myself somewhat recently! It is interesting how Malice shares the shame number as one of the lost legions and that one of the two lost Primarchs had a name starting with Mal. It’s far fetched and has little to support it but it could make for an interesting fan theory.
@@r.cdahuman7682 The warp can do crazy things. There is also a Theory that the Emperor made the Primarchs souls by imprinting his personality on powerful warp entities. For example, Sangunius's soul being compromised of two angels, one light, one dark, who were Baalite deities. Therefore it might be possible that the Lost Primarchs we're lost due to one gaining enough power in the warp fueled by the destruction, hate, and emotion of those who fought in the Rangdan Xenocide ascended to become Malice. At the same time, the other died trying to stop his brother's corruption and ascension from becoming Malice.
@@updfdrakkell143 ah. I assumed that might be what they meant, but they phrased it kinda poorly(no offense).
But no, I doubt it. I doubt he fell to chaos. If the primarch fell, I feel like a lot more of their legion would have been purged, and the emperor might have even purged most of said legion, just to be safe. Thought it is possible, Malice was notably absent during the Horus Hersey, though considering the fact that the 4 main gods *kind of* teamed up, and the very nature of malice being the chaos god of anarchy could explain why he would not work with them, even if it meant the possible death of the emperor.
In all though, Its a theory that has no evidence backing it up. I'd like to be true though. I love the idea of Malice. Wish he had more lore. I just don't think it holds any more weight than any other theory.
The theory would also only account for one missing primarch, not the other. Which would raise the question, what would the other have done that would have been on par with falling into the worship of the god of anarchy. Considering the type of god malice seems to be, I highly doubt that the primarch who fell would try to corrupt his brother, instead of merely trying to kill them. Its possible however.
I reckon they just added the II and XI geneseed to the ultramarine records
So when tested in the future they are ultramarines by any metric.
A thought comes to me- one of the Lost Primarchs may have been stripped from history for using something from the Long Night that was publicly claimed by the Imperium to be a subject of destruction... and the other Lost Primarch may have been it's target.
I never realized that the 2d and 11th legion had been seeded in the 7th legion as well the 13th. So this makes me wonder if the Soul Drinkers are actually from the 2d or 11th legion as it was revealed their geneseed didnt come from Rogal Dorn.
Remember, the Spear of Dorn was gene-locked. Only 7th Legio genesons could havs used it.
@@Deridusah yes the Soulspear was what it was called. The story goes that only Imperial Fists could wield it. However, the final book of the Soul Drinkers novels its revealed that the Soul Drinkers are not of Dorn's lineage. So either we've got conflicted canon or...... we've got the opportunity to tease out that perhaps the Soulspear isn't as describe. That maybe the Soulspear is actually the associated weapon of one of the missing Primarchs and that with the establishment of the Second Founding Soul Drinkers they were, unknowingly to themselves, gifted their true gene father's trusted weapon. Afterall, Dorn is never described as fighting with this relic weapon over the course of Great Crusade or Horus Heresy. Now that is some good speculation and lore and pretty damn probable too. The Soul Drinkers are the missing 2d or 11th legion.
@@emersonsullivan9768 It could also be the fact that the Soul Drinkers gene-seed could've been mutated by the warp, thus making them unrecognizable as Dorn's sons. Although it would technically mean that the Soul spear would also stop working for Soul Drinkers, which probably rules out this theory. I guess one of the ways to finding out there origins is seeing if the Imperial fists can wield it.
I always knew there was something up the soul drinkers
@@emersonsullivan9768
Alpharius had a spear when Dorn killed him.
Giving the Soulspear to loyalist Alpha Legion and calling them Sons of Dorn works with the existing lore.
I knew he was going to do this eventually thanks.
I've always come to the conclusion that the traitor legions were not guilty of being traitors but given their fate they need to be guilty of something. As such I've always believed one Chapter was guilty of giving aid and comfort to the enemy (maybe they were to kind to the Eldar or some other minor race) and one Chapter showed cowardess and retreated in battle (can you think of anything more awful for a Space Marine chapter to do?)
Or guilty of loosing a major battle in the bookthe master of mankind (i guess its the right name) the Emperor told one of his custodes:
-Do you remember what i hate more than treason?
-Yes, failure.
We just found the origins of the blood ravens (aka the magpies)
They finally said their Primarch was Lorgar?
I belive you mean, "The Thieving Magpies of Magnus."
@@Deridus yeah but The Blood Ravens have a large amount of Psykers but not all The Blood Ravens are Psykers like The Thousand Sons.
It would make an interesting story if The Blood Ravens were of one of The Lost Primarchs geneseed, or even if they were the 2nd or 11th Legion.
eyyyy that voice makes my abs quiver with joy
It has always been a mystery for me how a WARP PORTAL _JUST_ _APPEARED_ .... IN 1 OF THE MOST PROTECTED PLACES IN THE GALAXY.
I thought you'd to make a BUGA BUGA ritual with a psycher. But apparently anyone can just pre-order one.
Isnt it the primarchses mom who did it?
@@canuzac Yes, she did it to try to stop them being used as mindless warmachines.
Erda turned off the Gellar field around the lab.
@@ChaoticTabris well we see how well that worked didn’t it
NOT THE MOMMA!!!
Damn malcador's voice sound cool af. It's a shame we will never see malcador because he is dead. I would love to see emperor gets revived and then travels back in time to bring malcador in current timeline if he can't resurrect him. But that's my false hope.
He sounds a lot like a certain Custodes
That's the voice of Wamuudes
sounds like some Age of Shitmar BS
You need to listen to the current siege of Terra audiobooks...he sounds better on them. Also, he is a perpetual.......fingers crossed!
@@anshumanbose5132 except drunk
Thank you!
I always liked the ideal the 2nd Primarch was a blank.
Not just any sort of blank, the equivalent of Magnus the Red as a blank and his sons had blanks the way other chapters have Psykers like librarians etc.
He was too powerful to remain in the Imperium so he had to leave with his blank sons as not to damage the Webway or block the Astronomicon, rendering him and his Legion lost to the IoM.
His non-blank genesons joined the legions of Dorn and Guillemon as there was no dishonour, only the need to protect the Imperium as it required psykers to function.
But he's still out there, circling the galactic edge and trying to fight off Tyranid fleets and crushing enemies of Humanity before they attack the Imperium.
Wow you just discribed my homebrew legion that i was creating (still on paper) I'm stripping 46 ultramarines that i got for cheap on ebay for that porpose i prefer metal minis but the price was to good to turn away, but i also encountered a problem, i have 15 Legion of the damned metal minis that i love, being considered warp fueled space Marines they can never be fielded with the 2 legion Marines....
Can you give your thoughts on that?
Its an interesting thing about the geneseed of the Thousand Sons, in A Thousand Sons when Tzeentch speaks to Magnus, he very much hint if not outright state that the flesh change is his doing.
That could imply that the flesh change of the Thousand Sons was not genetic in nature, but more so so warp based in nature, sort of in the same like the plague of nurgle.
You can´t cure it no matter how much penicillin you drink, because its not caused by a normal virus or bacteria.
That would explain why the Cawl inferior didn´t find any flaws in the geneseed of the thousand sons, because the flaw wasn´t genetic.
It would further imply that IF the flesh change was warp induced that Tzeentch for lack of better word hacked into the Geneseed of the Thousand sons, if you could theoretically install a "firewall" maybe through chimeric measures, the geneseed would become stable and keep Tzxeentch out.
I knew about Guilimon's forces having been multiplied by the absorption of his brother's sons, but also Rogal Dorn? Make those like Sigismund and the celestial lions make a bit more sense going off the beaten path. Especially with the 2nd's nature being described as always inquisitive and contemplative. It sounds not unlike Grimaldus' nature.
I love that we know so little about these legions. We get just a few tidbits here and there and I hope we never get the story. The mysteries in 40k are some of the best parts. Make the galaxy seem so much bigger
Off topic, but the most badass thing the inquisition could do would be to attempt to harvest a DNA sample from the Angel while it is in stasis *Because apparently they let it loose then followed the same exact steps the emperor had used to capture it, to capture it again* and from that attempt to replicate enough to found a Legion: 0. A legion that was never intended to exist.
What do I think? Well i’m not smart enough to think something like this up. So i think you made an awesome video :)
I don't see the problem with some successors diverging significantly from their founder.
The Black Templars are frequently thought to be actual sons of Dorn, but I don't see there being a problem. In the same way as the Primarchs all took after aspects of the Emperor's personality, so too do Space Marines take after aspects of their Primarchs.
Sure, Sigismund wasn't at all similar to the majority of other Imperial Fists. Nassir Amit wasn't overly similar to most other Blood Angels either, but he was a Son of Sanguinius regardless. Most Blood Angels took on Sanguinius' nobility, beauty and grace but Amit and his ilk took after Sanguinius' rage that he usually kept hidden.
When the Legions were divided, it only made sense to group Marines that had similar personalities together. The fair and noble Blood Angels stayed with the original name, the brutal guys went on to become Flesh Tearers and so on. This works the same way with the Fists - the stubborn and patient stayed Imperial Fists, the zealous became Black Templars, the headstrong and youthful Crimson Fists and so on.
May the Emporer bless this channel
Had one of those late-night epiphanies and had to come back and rewatch this video so stay with me here. The official reason given for the lost primarchs and legions had to due with the lost legions of the Roman Empire, the designers liked the idea of lost legions and put it into the game. They also threw out the idea that it gave players a chance to play "thier guys" i.e. home brewed marines without having to stick to the established chapters. Now that was a long time ago, and the lore has changed quite a bit, but the official word is we will never learn who the lost primarchs were. BUT, we have been told the Legions were folded into the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists. While the replacing of the Genenseed is a possibility, that is a TON of Geneseed to replace even from stable stocks like the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists.
Now suppising Dorn and Guilliman did not use these guys as canon fodder, and they did not have their Geneseed replaced, you have to imagine that those casualties had their progenoids removed when possible and used to create more marines, especially in the case of the Fists who did a LOT of fighting during the Heresy and the immediate aftermath. Both Legions were apparently still large enough to be broken up into several chapters in the first founding. It stands to reason that some of these chapters were built, at least in part with marines from the 2nd and 11th Legions.
Now a lot of people make their own Chapters and I would hazard to guess that outside of the two Angels Legions, the Fists and the Ultramarines are probably the two most popular Legions to take a successor from. Maybe, and this could be a stretch given GW's hit-and-miss fan friendliness, but it could be, having the lore state that the 2nd and 11th were folded into the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines was a way to leave that door open for players to play "their guys" and have them be from the lost legions.
Seriously, given the loses of the Horus Heresy it seems illogical that the Geneseed of those marines who were given this sceond chance would be thrown out.
I have a theory that while the gene seed may've been taken and replaced, the material from the original source of the warrior would've mixed with the new gene seed to make a new stock. I read somewhere that the material of some successor chapters have mixed somehow with the material from other unknown chapter sources. They couldn't completely get rid of the material from the lost legions so they just classified it as a genetic deviation to keep people from looking too closely.
That’s an interesting voice for malcador. I never figured a strong loud voice for him. He sounds like a young James earl jones on steroids
Theoretical: this explains why the soul drinkers (successors of the imperial fists) were so divergent from what you'd consider a descendant of dorn.
I actually think that too
I’m wondering if a video has been made about the Cawl Inferior already? That would be interesting.
I've always wondered if, because the Emperor knew Magnus far before he knew any other Primarch, during his psychic conversations with Magnus he realized his ambitions and curiosities and decided to engineer a "backdoor" into their genetic makeup in case they got too curious (which they did). It's one thing to have 1,000 Thousand Sons going against Dorn. It's another thing entirely if there are 30-40,000 Thousand Sons as traitors. Yeah, I know the Sons probably wouldn't have betrayed the Emperor if Horus hadn't ordered Russ in, but there's always that chance and the Sons were just too much of a wildcard. Maybe I'm off or missed something, I dunno.
Since the 2 and 11 are self inserts I have fun with 11th having missed some to become the Imperium of beastmen.
I've never played a Warhammer game nor read any book about it. However, I am a connoisseur of lore and these stories are always amazing.
Since the Tyranid Hive Mind distorts the Warp, does it also affect the Eldar webway?
I’ve always wondered if the modern space marines from Dorn’s gene line are actually chimeric because the Soul Drinkers helped rebuild the Imperial Fists when they got wiped out.
Video suggestion: what would have happened to Conrad curse if John gramatica had use the fulgurite spear on him instead of vulkan? Would curse be "healed" or "cured" from his madness potentially? In the book "The unremembered empire"
The whole of the 2nd and 11th legions are in stasis as reinforcements for the final battle.
Oh wow, my favorite American pro video game streamer, alfabusa voices malcador. Happy he's getting into VA.
Bruva Alfabusa has been doing voice work for years, he routinely voices character in TTS
@@weldonwin wait, the va part of that was what you were concerned with, and not the American pro video game streamer part?
It's a joke. It's a bit from his latest video where he plays among us.
"More cognitive sound"
*Looks at Konrad and Angron*
A product of their upbringing... Im sure if they were raised with the Emperor it wouldnt be anything BUT true. Their formative years and their learning as wee little geneticly enhanced toddlers formed a deep trauma in them. If they werent in (Curze's case) a giant pile of murders and gangsters and in Angron's case - modified with the butchers nail and used as entertainment in slaying men all day long... They'd be very different
@@taten-jinmu718 I'd say that Angron did indeed appear to be some type of empathic healer before the nails. But let's not forget Curze's first act upon seeing a human being was to effing eat him, so... at least one of those two definitely hatched out wrong.
I never thought about the idea of replacing the geneseeds..
There is that detail of Soul Drinkers not actually being Imperial Fists successor chapter.
Yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were from the Lost Legions. Remember, the Carmine Blades were officially classified as an Ultramarine successor for millennia until they discovered they were actually Blood Angel successors.
What about the Spear of Dorn? Thought that was gene-locked to the 7th Legion?
Check out our video on the Soul Drinkers for more on that ;)
On the topic of the 20th legion mutations, I believe it would be a later trait. In the Alpharius book he specifically states that his chapter's gene seed is exceptionally stable.
Yes he did, back during the course of the Great Crusade, when the gene-seed of every legion was much much more stable :)
@@40KTheories So the gene seed in the Terran vaults should also be stable as it is pre-heresy stock. Excluding any Alpha Legion tricks that are always a possibility.
Its best to be a little careful when discussing the Cawl Inferior. Since in the Cawl novel, Cawl has stated he doesn't want to be Fabricator-General of Mars. He says he knows for a fact it would cause a civil war, besides becoming Fabricator-General would limit him and make him an administrator rather than the freedom of being a Grand Magos. Cawl says the next time he meets Guilliman in person, he will examine the Inferior to find out why it is saying these things. But if you listen to the entire conversation, the last thing the Inferior says before he asks Guilliman to make Cawl leader of Mars and use all the Primarch's gene seed is, 'Security Protocols enabled.' I suspect that Cawl Inferior has created its own security program when dealing with Guilliman. It repeats the same arguments and listens to Guilliman's responses. If Guilliman agrees or his arguments are poor (very unlike him). Then the Inferior would immediately alert Cawl of a problem with the Primarch. As how the EoM would allow the gene-seed to remain in the now brain washed surviving 2nd and 11th Astartes? Well the Horus Hersey happened very shortly after the two were lost and forgotten. The EoM and Malcador also didn't plan on dying at the end of the Hersey. So any plans to keep 2nd and 11th gene seed out, never happened.
Hence why I made sure to point out the possibility that it could be 'lying' ;)
@@40KTheories I wouldn't call it a lie, just what it is, a test. Stimuli administered to a test subject and recording/reporting on the subjects responses to said stimuli. Though I am sure Guilliman wouldn't like the idea of him being consider one of Cawl's test subjects.
My personal pet theory that's unlikely to be true is that one of the Lost Primarchs was on Terra helping with the Webway Project and some kind of accident perma killed them or made them lost to the Emperor. Emperor covers it up that he tried to assassinate him, but the other Lost Primarch refuses to believe it and execute his brother's Legion, so the Wolves are sicked.
Actual answer is probably there's no canon story behind it.
I honestly don't know what to think: on the one hand, everything relating to the lost primarchs should have been destroyed but on the other, their geneseeds might still be alive and well. I guess we just have to wait and see what Cawl does.
On the topic of using traitor geneseed, considering how many loyalist chapters have fallen, I feel like it wouldn't really matter.
Considering the chances, their may be that some chapters have a tiny bit of it in their gene stocks, but who knows, I'm still using a hybrid of the second and salamanders for my homebrew chapter
Something to keep in mind is that "geneseed" is not static. The genetic makeup of the host. The genetic makeup and service history of the progenoid glands previous owner. Warp exposure. Those are all factors for "geneseed in circulation".
The emperors original samples are propably the purest there are. So pure, not even the upbringing of the primarch had any effect on them.
When the emperor and genelabs said "we can not cure the fleshchange", did they speak of curing the current legionnaires, preventing future ones from having it, or both?
What if the gene seed of the 2nd and 11th legion circulating in the Ultramarines' and Imperial Fists legions (and later chapters) that has kept those lineages relatively stable? Compare the "inbreeding" of other chapters and their insular gene stocks to the idea of the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists chapters having a wider variety of material that has kept such "inbreeding" flaws out for so long.
The alternative gene seed would explain the reason why the Soul Drinkers chapter believed themselves to be descendants of Rogal Dorn, but later found out they were derived from a different, unknown gene-sire.
Real talk, do we think we will ever get an official answer from the lore?
I sincerely doubt that we will.
Unless GW wants to use the lost legions and primarchs to sell minis, no.
I feel like GW will keep it as a mystery because any answer they can come up with will never be as satisfying as what we ourselves have imagined.
One of their authors recently said no because there has to be some mystery in the lore, if you want a picture of a world creator who explains things he doesn't need to look at DBZ and toriyama. He limited a multi-verse to like 12 universes. Went from world to galaxy and made like less than 10 characters for it
I think channels like this are probably where future law comes from.
There's one fact you did not take into account, the Soul Drinkers, who for most of their existence believed to be succesors of the Imperial fists. However, unlike their battle brothers, they were subject to unique traits and somewhat mutations, and that's without the fact that their lineage tests turned out to be inconclusive.
If they were in fact succesors of the 2nd or 13th legions, it would somewhat prove that their geneseed was still being used to create space marines. Either that or the material inherited from their genefathers tainted their new progenoid glands when they were swapped.
The chaos God of tzeencth was able to turn one of soul drinker to have spider legs the same thing he did to the thousand Sons with the flash change are using the psychic potential in them
Did anyone else suddenly wonder what the hell is wrong with the Dark Angels geneseed that they were not working in production? Since Cawl Inferior does not mention the 1st Legion in that list.
I don't think I'll forgive you for this comment...
@@Deridus I mean, there are two options here, right?
Either there is some lurking flaw in the geneseed of the Dark Angels we don't know about, or somehow the 1st just doesn't have any geneseed tithe anywhere at all.
Neither says particularly good things about the state of the Dark Angels.
@@BTMadness You have a solid point, there. Being perhaps the quintessential Fleet-Based chapter (Take that, Angry Marines!), there is much I would like to know about how thier gene stocks interact with all of their recruitment world populations.
He didn't mention it because he wasn't listing the loyalist legions. 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 13, 18 and 19 weren't mentioned either.
@@ericahunt-fry1634 What's this? 1st Legio should be on neither list... or did the joke go over your head?
I think one of the Primarchs was yet another knightly figure, perhaps the "Templar" or the "Crusader". This Primarch's legionaries were merged into the Imperial Fists due to their similarity to Sigismund. This is why they thought they were an Imperial Fists successor, only to learn that they are not descended from Rogal Dorn and their true Primarch is indeterminate.
I honestly think it had something to do with chaos since the emperor didn't want anyone to know anything about the warp and the entities within it
Well it would explain why the Imp fists and some of their successors are so different some defend and the others attack
I have a homebrew chapter that's descended from the 11th. Their dying out and their primary goal is to find new source of geneseed from their lost primarch to restore their own, which is heavily degraded and showing multiple signs of failing.
It's kind of weird to think that any legion could have done something so much worse than the civil war initiated by Horus and the traitor legions (leading to the Empire being completely stagnant as they are currently locked in endless, unwinnable wars against a mixture of abstract concepts and alien species that will eventually lead to a slow, painful attrition until all that remains is a bunch of rocks stripped of biomass and possibly some Necrons as the Tyranids wander off to consume another galaxy) that would warrant being completely expunged from all records so as an alternative maybe they were just complete failures.
The Emperor was pretty cavalier about the stuff he was mixing in with his own genetic material, which is part of why so many of the legions had weird quirks and genetic abnormalities, so maybe the two that have no records for their existence were just too weak to survive. I can't imagine the Emperor's ego allowing him to admit any kind of failure so it makes sense that either he or his followers would have covered it up.
I know I’m probably late to the party but if the 2nd and 11th Legions were absorbed into the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines this would explain why the Soul Drinkers being a 2nd founding Chapter of the Imperial Fists but would later have it revealed not to be a Imperial Fists successor
Assuming that they're not instead derived from Alpha Legion stock and tasked with guarding the Pale Spear which they renamed to the Soulspear ;)
@@40KTheories that is a possibility after all the did infiltrate the Raven Guard whilst a company of Imperial Fists were present. But after they were caught the Raven Guard were tested and I’m sure Rogal Dorn would test after the Battle of Pluto
i rly kinda wish they would reveal both missing primarchs and make one of them not rly a traitor, as much somebody who fucked off cuz he did wht jagatai wanted to do
Mutations had to have been introduced later with the Alpha legion, likely after they ransacked off with the prime gene seed Croax got from the Emperor. The forgeworld books all state the Alpha Legion was amongst the most stable and had the highest induction rates for new space Marines.
Belisarius Cawl: I fixed the Thousand Sons Gene problems! ...... it only took me 10'000 years.
I was going to write a story about one of the lost primarchs, I was gonna make him land on a human world that still maintained much of it's technology as world devoted to scientific study & advancement & that at heart the primarch was a bit of a pacifist who question the emperor's plans for the great crusade and got himself exiled in the end.
@@ltcinsane So you where going to write "The Foundation." As Salvor Hardin might say "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
Soul Drinkers. Thought to be of Imperial Fist stock, but were informed they were not, despite detailed chapter records.
Dorn kept his warriors with like kinds. Crazy zealots in Sigisminds group, so on and so forth. Maybe legionares of the 2nd/11th were in their own cohort incase they need to be purged, did well, were forgotten about until Dorn disappeared, then given their own chapter in recognition of their deeds, becoming the Soul Drinkers. It would also explain why no one knew who their primarch was.
I find it interesting that it can almost be taken by malcadors words like the primarchs fled, or abandoned their posts in a sense. "The Legionaries they left behind, leaderless and forsaken" however this can be seen as the primarchs also being dead.
However many point to Russ comment about astartes vs astartes, however let's recall here that malcador whipped the memories of ALL the primarchs in regard to most info of their brothers.
It's my opinion this is left open and it's possible u we see more soon after cawls "experiments" and "experimental implantation" with the 2 and 11 legions gene seed for primaris.
I think its possible that some lost legions gene seed did get mixed with Imperial Fist and Ultramarines. It's possible someone could have missed the paperwork saying a certain soldier wasnt a repurposed marine. This kind of makes me think of the Soul Drinkers (I think thats the right one, the one that says its Dorn but was proven not). Would also explain some Ultra successors goin rouge or to choas) But it kinda also explains the Black Templars and there over zealousness too. Possibly one brother fell to religion and the other to choas (some one made a Malice point that I liked) both bad at the time to warrant erasure. Big E couldnt hide the Horus Heresy like he could the other 2 legions so that why the no erasing, plus ya gotta know who your fighting.
You forget, Inquisitor, about the Soul Drinkers. During their trial aboard the Phalanx, the Imperial Fists apothecaries came to the conclusion that the Soul Drinkers were not of Imperial Fists lineage. The apothecaries also stated that they “could not say” who the Soul Drinkers were derived from, and that their genetic sequences did not match any of the known Primarchs.
This leads one to believe that the gene-seed of the Second and Eleventh Legions had mixed in the gene vaults of the Imperial Fists and the Ultramarines. As all data about the sources of this gene-seed was intentionally purged, over the millennia it became viewed as just more gene-seed of the Seventh and Thirteenth. Gene-seed is a beyond precious commodity in the Imperium, so it, much like the legionnaires who bore it, was most likely deemed too valuable to just be discarded.
This is especially the case in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy and the Great Scouring. The Imperial Fists alone had such devastating losses done to them at the Iron Cage, that it took them *19 years* to fully recover. If one takes into account further actions such as the War of the Beast, the Black Crusades, the wars on Armageddon, and Throne knows how many more bloody engagements the sons of Dorn and Guilliman were in over the next ten millennia, one can be quite sure that maintaining healthy gene-seed stocks has always been a top priority for them.
I enjoyed this video, brother, but I just wanted to highlight some possibilities you might have missed with this assessment. Keep up the good work :)
Slight correction; Gethsemar said that they "could not say" which Primarch the geneseed of the Soul Drinkers belonged to, because "The Sanguinary Priests had yet to complete their discourse on the matter", so if they had more time to study it, they probably could have worked it out. :)
As it stands, there is a surprising amount of evidence to suggest that the Soul Drinkers utilise Alpha Legion geneseed (the random mutations, which are in line with Alpha Legion genetic flaws, plus the genetic link to the Soulspear which could quite possibly be the Pale Spear of Alpharius for instance)
@@40KTheories very interesting! I have to say though that the Soul Drinkers don’t exhibit the particular nature of the sons of Alpharius Omegon. In fact their specialty in direct orbital assault puts them quite at odds with the sons of the Hydra. Though it is curious how the Fists would obtain Alpha Legion gene-seed to have a successor chapter come forth from that stock. Where on the flip side of that argument we know that the 7th did take warriors and *possibly* gene-seed from the 2nd and 11th. How would the Alpha Legion stocks get into Imperial Fists hands? Why would they even take them? Was it a ploy by Alpharius to plant a chapter of warriors in each of his brothers’ legions, or was it a chapter of Black Shields who stayed loyal to the Imperium rather than there fathers? As always with the Alpha Legion, that possibility raises more questions than it answers.
The idea is that following the battle of Pluto, and Dorn's slaying of Alpharius, Dorn took the Pale Spear as a trophy. However, Dorn - ever the pragmatist, realised that the weapon was far too dangerous to let the traitors regain it, petitioned for the creation of a chapter to stand guard over to it, where they would be officially documented as Imperial Fists (and using AL genestock specifically, since the Pale Spear is also implied to be gene-coded to Alpha Legionnaires, much like how the Soulspear was gene-coded to "sons of Dorn" even though we later find out the Soul Drinkers are apparently of a differing lineage.)
As for the mindset being different, you could argue the same for a lot of chapters.
The Silver Skulls are very much unlike the Ultramarines for instance, being more superstitious and less practical. The Executioners are more brutal and aggressive than the Imperial Fists. The Wolfspear love utilising terror tactics etc.
As such, it's not unreasonable to assume that a traitor legion successor could also sport a different mindset.
@@40KTheories That is fair enough I suppose. But getting back to my main point there are numerous chapters that claim to be founded by the 7th and 13th that have no actual hard data to prove they are of Guilliman’s or Dorn’s stock. Now that we know that these legions have both missing legion warriors in their ranks prior to Ullanor, it does make sense that some of these wayward sons survived to give rise to chapters with such shrouded lineages.
It's possible, certainly. But it's also just as likely the shrouded records are due to the incompetence of the Administratum. Remember, the Administratum originally classified the Carmine Blades (back when they were called the Swords of Haldroth); a Blood Angels successor - as an Ultramarines successor
I wonder if there’s cases of aspirants washing out midway through the geneseed implantation process. Like there’s humans running around or chapter serfs that are at this midway point of being a regular human and being an astartes.
The Calgar comics had a character who had washed out of the trials and was being paid by rich folks to train their boys to attempt the astartes opening tests. Dunno if he had washed out before or after full or partial geneseed implantation, although he did kinda look tall.
I believe as the Astartes of the Lost Legions gradually died off, their progenoid gland was harvested as it would be from any fallen battle brother, but would afterwards be discarded. As you noted, the Imperium was capable of producing geneseed at that time at a much faster rate than the current day Imperium, capable enough to even replace those fallen Astartes geneseed with the geneseed of their new parent Legion into a new Aspirant. Thus insuring the geneseed of the Lost Legions would be expunged in time through combat loses.
My Space Marine faction has always been one of the lost Primarchs' legions who went into hiding with them and is now returning. Didn't realize those Legionaries would have been still serving the Imperium all this time. Huh... Will have to rework some things.
I think their glands were swapped, otherwise you would find some marines from the imperial fist successor chapters not to have their flaws right? If they purged all data is not like they marked the marines from the lost so they would not reuse their geneseed
Be cool to find out a current Astarties legion was descended from the 2nd or 11th to see how they operate?
You know. This might be an explanation as to why the Black Templars are so different from the rest of Dorn’s successors. Different gene seed.
Now I want to know what chapter's maybe from the two Lost legions