Trans Panelist Confronts MrGirl On His Own Panel ft. Buck Angel
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- čas přidán 3. 05. 2022
- DEBATE: Destiny debates trans issues and cancel culture on MrGirl's panel ft. Buck Angel, Dick Masterson, Rekeita Law, Lauren Southern and Kalvin Garrah
Date: 2 May, 2022
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Nice to see Buck Angel put a human face on the discussion. Because of people like Demon Mama people think every trans person is Pennywise lurking below in the sewer.
🤣 Funny but sadly true.
Very sadly true
Lmaooo
wait demon mama is trans???? and ISNT PENNYWISE?!?!?
If all trans people were like buck we probably would not even be discussing it. It would just be acceptable. It’s people like DM and Vivian that keep normal people disliking trans people as a generality.
As a trans person myself, it was so refreshing to hear and see Buck talk and hear their point of view as im one of the "traditional" trans folks from the early 90s where all i cared, and care about is blending in. Awesome panel Destiny,
That's cool, but I don't think the issues of non binary and new gendered people should be disregarded just because some people just want to fit in.
I'm not saying you're part of the problem, but it feels to me, as a bi gendered/gender fluid/non binary/gender anarchist, that the "I just want to fit in" crowd wants to enforce the binary and often wants to push out genders that don't conform to the binary as "weirdos who are making problems for us good trans people."
As much as I understand that, I think it can be harmful to everyone who isn't perfectly binary trans.
@@AchillesThePeacemaker Holy shit man. "bi gendered/gender fluid/nonbinary/gender anarchist"? It's pretty clear where the problem is. Yeah, that shit is making problems for trans people and everyone else. That entire descriptor validates attack helicopters.
@@AchillesThePeacemaker I think Destiny mentioned before though that he views gender as male, female, and non-binary. He's more accepting of non-binary people, but he has problems with other people (ex: xenogenders, neopronouns, etc.) as saying they are trans. He says if you want to fight for those issues, that's fine, just don't call yourself trans because that is a separate category all together.
@@AchillesThePeacemaker "bi gendered/gender fluid/non binary/gender anarchist"
what da fuq does this even mean??? aren't a couple of these in direct conflict with each other? Do you just say anything to sound like you are special?
@@rambo3rd471 Yeah, it's good that he clarifies that in a non inflammatory way some of the time, but he's also disposed to speaking about people outside of the binary in a pretty reductive, inflammatory way, as far as outright suggesting that everything outside of the binary, other than "not binary", is just attention seeking behavior.
While I agree there is some level of illicit clout hijacking, ie equating all forms of disagreement with any neo trans/pronoun as equally transphobic, or the stolen valor of some non binary people claiming trans oppression when the only thing that's changed is the pronouns in the Twitter bio, but he then takes such offense to those people that he ends up spouting some pretty reactionary talking points that feel like erasure of who I am as a non binary person.
It seems pretty silly to take the idea of "it seems like most people have an experience of being either a man or woman" added to "some online people use neo trans and non binary identity for clout" and use it to conclude, more or less, that there are "real trans" and a bunch of clout chasers.
I get that it's mostly stuff he says after seeing some real infuriating misuses of trans/non binary/neo identities, but that doesn't make the underlying ideas/rhetoric and less harmful from my perspective as a gender anarchist.
I think he should be more critically supportive rather than just critical.
No matter how many times I listen to Buck Angel speak I cannot have anything but the utmost respect for him. Lucid thinking and a respectful delivery towards everybody...he is the sweetest ♥
21 minutes in. This is the best moderator I have ever heard. Directing the convo, keeping people on track, handling the personalities, allowing everyone a chance to speak. Yes, Lauren did get left out for awhile, so he isnt perfect. But, this is WAY better than any other moderator I have seen Destiny have
I have been listening to his content for years, he's a great comedian as well.
Say what you like about his views -but we all need to take a moment to appreciate what a great audience Buck Angel is, every quip, or just wry observation anyone on the panel makes Buck responds with this full, generous laugh. It’s nice to see
He completely understood what was a joke and what was serious. Really cool dude.
Biologically female-they laugh too easily. Which is to say, a good audience.
@@Sampsonoff He ended up agreeing with MrGirl... MrGirl tends to say something extremely provocative to grab people's attention, but when he explains his position in full it's often actually quite agreeable, he just initially frames it as controversially as possible.
exactly! and it's what we need more of. I saw destiny react to one of vaushs ridiculous takes (the whole genocide thing) and he asked his guest "the chat wants to know your name and pronouns".... I understand why some will have that higher on their priority list for obvious reasons, and maybe it's my "privilege" showing, but I heard that and said to myself, my name is Mike, my pronouns are LITERALLY WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT to say, for good or bad or normal or absurd reasons... I literally could not care less. and I wish more people wouldn't. if you know yourself who cares what others say.. (I do understand how it would be necessary to "set it straight", but after that if people wanna be assholes, just let them be and f em!)
@@bez5297 lol yeah Mr girl had some initially ridiculous statements followed by, "yeahh actually I can see thats" lol he is a "wild" human regardless haha
Honestly this panel was pretty interesting.
Even though I don’t agree with Nick on a few things, I respect the fact that he was respectful.
This, also, is the first time I could sit through any debate with MrGirl.
And Buck is always interesting to listen to, cause he’s got some unique takes due to his own life experiences.
Overall, this was a good panel.
Mrgirl was just as insufferable as ever he just had less talking time (thankfully). Idk how people meme on him to his face and he still either doesn't see it and/or refuses to change. I also don't get why anyone would waste time talking to him when he's claimed multiple times that he refuses to change his mind about something. What an ignorant existence
@@AcrossTheSea12 because conversation for the sake of conversation is important, especially in an environment that tends to have healthy discourse bastardized by people getting offended or triggered and defaulting on shutting down the conversation
This was what MrGirl should be. A little less edgy, but the same interesting perspective.
The fact that destiny brought up feeding poor people and mrgirl goes “communism?” is so fucking telling.
Harder and harder to stomach MrGirl's monotonous half-baked idealistic cynicism. Dude just constantly projects and somehow is convinced he's an empath who has unique insights into everyone and everything with a flippant disregard for any viewpoint that isn't already his own. I've literally not once yet seen him pause and reflect and change his mind on anything.
The only time I've seen him pause is to posture for dead air to make people uncomfortable for effect. Fucking exhausting contrarian.
Yup, surprised so many people still don't see it
him saying shit like "yeah life sucks deal with it because I do" is so boring at this point, we get it dude, you are a horrible person to your loved ones and most girls dumb enough to sleep with you ended up crying themselves to sleep, such a great model figure
Many points were emiliorated during this verbal exchange of concepts, but alas, I fear perchance, that I missed some ideas due to being beset by tiredness.
Are you trolling?
@@richardhands904 to be a troll, we need to establish your meta-ethical framework for how you delineate between bad faith trolling versus good faith engagement (ogreing). I feel like I've outpaced you, word-numerically.
*ameliorated
@@jokersdemise Not true, a troll doesn't necessarily have to be bad faith. Thank you for elucidating, that you are in fact a good faith troll. Glad I have won this exchange.
@@richardhands904 how can you troll if you haven't even grounded your axioms bro
It feels good to see trans men in the online debate space making trans people look good. More of us need to be vocal for this reason.
There are many trans people doing this. It's just rare for Destiny to interact with people who main on other niche political topics.
@@aardfay they were talking about trans men not just trans people. Trans women pervade the debate space while trans men do not. It’s fine, everyone can do whatever. I’m just re-circling back to OP who said elsewhere that trans women dominate vs trans men , and that’s their context
I fear trans women of late make all trans people look god awful
@@Sprite_525that’s because they’re biological men who tend to feel entitled to talk over people and “feel heard”
@@NecessaryDramaAddictionNDA🤓🤓🤓
MrGirl is impossible. He keeps mixing himself in social science debates just to say, in essence, "Social science is fake and nothing is real. We can't know anything for sure, therefore everything is the same, therefore I'm right. Also I know what everyone is feeling and thinking at any given time and from that information I can extrapolate your entire past, and if you tell me im wrong you are just lying because I can look into your mind"
Isn't there a big replication crisis in social sciences now?
Lowkey true but still insightful sometimes
@@onpoc No there was, because before around the 90's there was a lot of cheating the system to get results and negligence, but we fixed that with way stricter norms for research. We still have a problem that scientist prioritize new research over repeating old research, but it is getting better every year, as there is more incentives to replicate studies. But most social studies work with an alpha of 0.05, meaning that about 5 percent of studies that find an effect are wrong, but then that goes to about 0.25 percent if a replicate finds the same thing. (Most of the time lower because the actual chance of being wrong found is always lower than 5 percent, as that is the cutoff point.) But yeah, to discredit all of social sciences because we had a crisis, and there are studies now that are wrong by probability seems dumb to me.
@@ri3121 0.05 of the published studies are wrong: that would be true if it weren't for the publication bias. The true false positive ratio of the published studies could be greater (even much greater) than that.
@@onpoc Well yes, but that's why, in most countries, a fight against publication bias has been happening for the past decade. More and more journals are accepting papers that find no effects, and scientific communism is starting to return. I'll certainly acknowledge that there are still big problems, and you should never take the result of one or 2 studies as perfect evidence. But what MrGirl does is just ridiculous.
The interactions between Kalvin and Buck were great. I want Contrapoints to respond to this--won't happen, but it deserves to be in her annual video
Lovely discussion. People with all sorts of different view points and backgrounds having civil and friendly discussion.
Big respect for Buck. He went through with his transitions in a time where ppl were waaaaay less accepting than today and, he is showing reason, understanding and even critiquing the current trend.
Lauren, I love you, but it’s pretty much universally known now that Michael Jackson had vitiligo. When he first started losing pigmentation in his face he used makeup to match the rest of his darker skin tone, but obviously dancing on stage and sweating melted the makeup off so there’s tons of pictures showing this. When the vitiligo progressed it just made more sense to bleach the few remaining patches of dark skin to match.
Sure that’s what they say LOL
Its not just the trans thing. This kind of behavior is true in a lot of groups. People who don't really know what they're talking about applying the limited knowledge to other people's lives and then using that to affirm an identity.
It happens a lot in the mental health space for a few reasons, like fitting in, getting answers, as well as using it as a crutch to blame all your problems.
lauren not knowing MJ had vitiligo? and nobody is saying a thing, i feel like im going crazy.
Yeah, that was pretty frustrating. At least Destiny's chat was going nuts about it, so Destiny probably did see that at least.
Yeah, I think Destiny was confusing MJ getting severely burned leading him to be put on pain killers for the rest of his life with him having vertigo and lupus which cause his skin to lighten. But I'm surprised no one said anything.
When buck is the most manly looking person on the panel 😂
Thought the same thing!
😂
I'm actually really glad this didn't end up being a panel on "trancel" culture as Mr. Girl intended. They usually end up with everyone agreeing the left has gone too far, and seeing who can felate Destiny the most for getting banned for their sins. This ended up being "yea, we all agree we should be able to discuss this stuff in a more nuanced and interesting way than either deer people exist or roblox every trans person. Now let's actually talk and argue about the interesting stuff".
Also like others said, really glad I found out Buck existed. I don't agree with all his points but he was very interesting and delightful to listen to.
Trancel culture doesn’t exist
mrgirl is such a hypocrite its painful to listen to he used to be tolerable but now he is just like everyone else
He was never tolerable
@@sklorbit no he very much was in the beginning he seemed very nuanced in his views and very misunderstood but now he is turning into what he sought out to destroy if yk wat i mean
1:28:00 Good God. This is honestly the stupidest thing I've ever seen Destiny do in a convo. He lays out his own case, and Nick *clearly* corrects his understanding of the bill, then Destiny asks where there was a disagreement like a smug moron?
You, Destiny, implied that the issue is that it opens up the ability to sue AT ALL AGES in a school setting, based on the prior statements and your little diatribe.
Nick corrected you that it *locks* K to 3rd as "you cannot do these things here," and *leaves it open* for the board of Education to decide whether they want it to end at 3, or be K-9 or K-10 or whatever. Anything AFTER 3 they can decide on. Before 3? The language of the bill applies.
He explained this so very clearly that I literally had to double check your response to make sure you actually dropped the ball that spectacularly. Normally this doesn't happen as far as I can tell, but good lord if you weren't listening at all then.
^and that's my only criticism so far, frankly this discussion has been top class imo. Glad Nick is there, too.
That's a totally fair criticism. Even I understood Nick and I'm an idiot.
Though parents can push the commission board to prevent whatever teachings to later grades?
Seems like that should be done more locally, since a small group of parents can effect all the schools in the state?
Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
@@kaldrake2167 I think what Nick was getting at is that it was already the case that a curriculum was determined by the school board. The law simply restricted k-3. The "or" clause exists to keep it the same for the rest of the grades.
Edit: to elaborate more, before the bill existed parents already could "push the school board" to restrict, or loosen, or whatever.
Agree, Destiny felt a teeny bit bad faith and needlessly antagonistic/pedantic toward Nick in order to one-up him in a perceived disagreement
Destiny isn't going to read this you know.
@@0doublezero0 I think the unique part about puberty blockers is that it specifically targets a bodily process that is unique to humans below a certain age. Like if we wanted to test puberty blockers on adults, that's fine I suppose. But the medication will not be able working as intended. The puberty blockers wouldn't do much, since these adults already went through puberty. Since the adults already went through puberty, there will be no puberty for the puberty blockers to block. So, when testing puberty blockers on adults, we get a pretty limited view as to what effects they would have since they would not be able to perform their desired function. It's almost like testing a preventative cancer drug on patients that already have cancer. I won't say its useless to do so, but it's certainly not ideal. That's why I think testing kids is a bit more important in this case.
Over time, i am more and more disliking mr girl's takes, he just doesn't seem to understand people well
He has been kinda dumb all along. People just like him because destiny does
you would know a lot about the definition of woman, wouldn't you now Destiny?
Well, it’s in his name.
A woman is when you use a girl's name as your username
@@dawnwatching6382 I should change my name and become a man
You know they say destiny is a girls name
@@dawnwatching6382 what am I then
It's hilarious to me that literally in the space a few seconds Buck goes from "we don't have enough studies on the long-term effects of puberty blockers" to "we have so many studies from other countries".
Yeah that was disingenuous as hell. Especially when he got caught in his lie and tried to spin it.
Those are very different claims.
@@begetasama7209 They are, but they're not that different, and regardless they still work at cross-purposes for Buck's point. He's trying to claim that we don't know how blockers will effect people long-term (based on a lack of studies), but then also claims that we know they're bad in the long-run (based on a wealth of (foreign) studies). Which is it?
I heard him contradict himself 3 times and nobody caught it lol
I like when he said he was against testing drugs on children. Like ok I guess no more polio vaccine
This is one of the best debates I have ever seen. I absolutely loved hearing from so many people with diverse opinions on a topic.
Dude I absolutely have fallen in love with these debates and panels. I love it more when people actually debate or discuss the topics at hand and not just immediately go on the defensive trying to prove they are right or their PoV is the only PoV
When they start discussing the bill. Lauren immidetly started arguing against a strawman. And she knows it is a strawman because I have seen her argue this on at least 3 different occasions and each time no one was arguing what she pretends people are arguing.
100%
Full of shit as always
Don't know why people are so disappointed Wu didn't show up to give the twitter addict perspective, chat was clearly filling that role swimmingly.
Lauren wouldn't stop complaining that people weren't throwing to her even though nobody else is waiting to be called on.
michael jackson had vitiligo, he never wanted to change his skin color/want to be white. he had said this many times. that part of the convo was so annoying bc it wasn’t even true. cmon y’all 🙄🙄
Thank you
I didnt know much about Buck before this but i am so glad He was apart of this. Fantastic, reasonable responses and actual willingness to discuss topics instead of shouting "transphobe" when someone has a take that isnt exactly your own. Simply blown away by how grounded in reality he is. Im genuinely going to look for more panels or debates with Buck.
Would of been the perfect panel if Mrgirl hadn't shown up.
WHo is this Nick dude? Anyone know if he has a youtube or twitch channel? His name doesn't seem listed at the top.
Rekeita Law, he is streaming Depp case.
@@meezy9550 Oooooh. His youtube name IS listed, thanks!
It's interesting that the concept of Binary Trans people and Non-Binary trans people wasn't brought up, feel like it's an easy way to differentiate between the "new" vs "old" ideas; the old guard really wanted to pass, the new guard doesn't care as much as the binary of male/female isn't as rigid to them and the ideas of presenting as male/female are less strict to them
I hear what you are saying, but then dont you think this "new guard" should be called something besides trans? Bc if they don't care about "passing" as the opposite sex, then what is their transition? I think their identity is valid, but my female friends who call themselves NB aren't the same as Buck, who's actually transitioned from 1 identity to another.
My utopia is that one day these panel shows make a good effort to include people who are professionals in the subject matter being discussed. Having anyone who has a little working knowledge on things like medicating children would be awesome.
Edit: Wow, left that comment right before Kalvin spoke up. Hearing him come in and make the criteria for how mental health stuff is evaluated clear was like a breath of fresh air. Representing the mental health field by expressing a pragmatic view of the issue of doing what works best for people was great. I think other things like making distinctions between body dismorphia and dysphoria probably helps people get an understanding of these issues more in line with where the academics are at.
these panels have been sooo much more interesting since destiny was banned from twitch
What game is he playing in the background? (Edit: Found it, it's called 'The Last Spell')
Eldencraft
This was a fun panel. I love the shit talking, but at the same time there's a lot of back and forth and people are attempting to have a nuanced conversation, even though the topic is fairly polarizing
I wish they’d had a more pro-trans person on to balance it out, as this was mostly just everyone agreeing with each other. But other than that great panel, and Buck Angel was a nice surprise. I remember first seeing him years ago on the Howard Stern show lol
@@TonyCox1351 I agree, but that's the only way to have a nuanced discussion on this particular topic. Otherwise, it comes down to labelling people and the conversation stops.
I read in another comment that the Brittany person who didnt make the panel was going to represent the pro-trans stance, so that explains why it was so one sided. Wonder how it would have turned out with her there
@@TonyCox1351 salacious clickbait CZcams title in front of a boring screaming match if I had to guess
@@TonyCox1351 When you say pro trans what do you mean?
Some of this conversation, albeit nearly a year ago, was rough with regards to empathy, but these are the exact kinds of conversations which need to be heard--imperfect, passionate, intelligent, ignorant criticisms. I learned more about trans people and the issues surrounding them in this single conversation than years of sound bites and news articles. I'm too late, but thanks for sharing this Destiny.
Lol the moment MrGirl realized he fucked up and invited all people who agree.
Um sorry to bother you but does anyone know what game he’s playing?
would also like to know
It's called "The Last Spell"....you would not fucking believe how pissed off I became trying to find a clue in this damn video to search for to find the title...lol...
@@Esetburn "The Last Spell"
this was wholesome, a rare thing in the online communty.
Yeah it's a real positive vibe I want more online discourse like this
Gotta give credit to Dick in this convo, such a refreshing change to the Fanatic moderation
I appreciate what fanatiq is trying to do, he knows what kind of show he wants to produce: one with structure and discipline.
He just has yet to master reading the room, knowing when to wrangle with heavy hand, and when to get out of the way so organic back-and-forth can build and flow.
Dick has a lot more experience in that regard, and instead steers into the chaotic skids for a fun ride
@@nocuh
Yeah I was disappointed in Fannatic regarding his behavior around Lauren Southern but he did a wonderful job in the discusion regarding Ana.
If he sticks to just moderating and leave his opinions or opposition out of the discussion I think he could be one of the best.
You can tell he cares and is trying.
Fanatiq was good last time. He should teach Destiny fighting games
@@nocuh lol that is 100% wrong. The real issue is fanatiq has a superiority complex and because his constant bad takes can't win debates he has decided to become a moderator. THe only problem is he lets his bias get involved way too often which turns it into a shit show.
A prime example would be he, chud logic, and mrgirl and doobys little fiasco. If he was really doing what you say, he would have addressed dooby the moment he started throwing attacks, especially when on the same stream and even later that night on another he explains that he knew what dooby did was wrong but instead of dealing with the situation like a civilized adult he gas lit chud multiple times to get a rise out of him.
@@novac1990 he can't, because he won't. And he doesn't nor is he. All you're seeing is a game change so he can still act egotistical and stroke his superiority complex without getting shit on habitually for his bad takes, and now he doesn't get made a fool of when he blows up from failing to defend said bad takes, because since he "the boss" there is no correcting him because if you disagree and don't capitulate he removes you.
saying that people with restrictive eating disorders dont ever feel "euphoria" with respect to their malnourished or thin bodies just isnt true. its also kinda a caricature (and made fun of amongst us with eds lmao) to describe body dysmorphia as "skinny girl looks in a mirror and sees an obese person :( ". this is just not an accurate representation of the experience of the vast majority of women and girls i know that have suffered with an eating disorder, including myself. there are definitely moments when those with ed's actually feel incredibly euphoric/validated in their body and hyper-cognizant of their relatively small size. many of us are constantly comparing ourselves to our peers, keeping measurements, and validating ourselves when we "win" by eating less/knowing we are smaller than someone around us.
this competitiveness and what i call "narcissistic self hatred" is a horrible symptom of eds but its very real. its also one of the hardest things to confront because these behaviors are insufferable to be around because your average person isn't immune to insecurity imposed by beauty standards, and very much so will notice when you engage in annoying, competitive ed shit around them like purposefully eating less or body checking. u basically end up forcing your friends into a competition that they did not consent to or want to compete in. Also, studies have proven that distinct from other mental illnesses relatively more prevalent amongst girls than boys, eating disorders are distinctly "contagious" amongst social/friend groups. Interestingly, a few recent studies on the disproportionate prevalence of girls receiving dysphoria diagnoses than boys the same age have hypothesized there is an element of social contagion involved similar to that observed with EDs.
Its not always that we think/see of ourselves as bigger than we are, we just see our current size (as it is/accurately) but dont like it for some reason. or, occasionally, we "love/like" our sick body because we are having an era where we feel like we have succeeded in some way (fit into a certain size, have certain measurements, look a certain way, have something pointed out to us/look similar to someone else, etc) yes this feeling is often fleeting, but it exists and can sometimes persist for a while before the distress with your body returns (i know a lot of young women who are clearly sick/have an unhealthy relationship with food but they are "maintaining" an only slightly too low body weight for health purposes, despite all of the compulsive & distressing fixations/behaviors/mentality remaining).
perhaps, this is the distinction between the two disorders: symptoms of ED's pragmatically cant be "cured" by surgically retaining a body you are content living in, but symptoms of dysphoria seem like they CAN be relatively permanently "cured/alleviated" with social affirmation + medical intervention that alters genitals + secondary sex characteristics.
Very important comment, EDs are massively complex with lots of psychosocial dimensions beyond simply delusion. It can be just as persistent as gender dysphoria and can be influenced by societal norms to varying degrees. I’ve known a few women with EDs and they definitely go through phases of feeling very happy with their bodies when they’re small or “making progress”, it wears off maybe but there is definitely a reward mechanism going on
I think there are two types of EDs, which they discuss in the panel, as well: the first type involves individuals, like the ones you described, who are trying to conform to social norms and try to slim down in ways that aren't healthy. However, there are other types of people who will literally starve themselves to death- looking very malnourished and very abnormally thin compared to social norms- and still think they're fat the whole time. The latter is the kind they were discussing, and it's definitely less common than people slimming down to a level that's socially accepted.
@@Greg-cr2dw i agree that there is a distinction and categories, particularly in behavior/outcome. same as i think there is a meaningful and real difference between disordered eating and eating disorders. but i think its kinda tricky because, with me for example, i am/was in the first group but always "wanted" to be in the second group. and this isnt uncommon where people will "wish" they were "sicker" and feel like "failures" at their ed. or if you have bed or bullimia, or ednos and your symptoms are either weight gain/weight maintenance its common to wish u had anorexia so "at least ur ed makes u lose weight". you might be perfectly cognizant of your actual size, and be actually correct in ur assessment that you are currently overweight or a normal weight, but you may still seek to be underweight and experience similar distress regarding ur body/food as someone who is underweight, its just that ur ultimate behaviors are distinct. also i don't think its most accurate to describe what that second group is primarily experiencing as "still thinking they are fat", its more of a compulsive fear of any weight gain at that point. small difference but ya idk what my point is besides that its just v complicated lol.
@@mb-kp6jv that's fair. I suppose that, if I were to critique them, it would be that they seemed to brush off individuals who had EDs as a result of social pressure as "less severe", and while that may be true to a certain extent since individuals in the other category will never be thin enough in their own mind, it does not mean that the other category is not very nuanced and complex. I'm sure they would agree with that statement if you pushed them on it, though.
can someone tell me where these things happen?
was this on mr girl's discord account?
Yo does anyone know the name of the game Destiny's playing through the stream?
While I agree with you that there is more diversity needed in points of view, I think conversations are more productive and interesting when you can find that diversity without extremists. Honestly they hurt the conversation on ANY topic, because they represent a point of view that isn't actually representitive of the community itself and only serves to paint that community negatively. People can still have strong views and be vocal in expressing them without marrying a specific political ideology and walking around waving their team flag. What I do love seeing in some of the more recent panels is the return of non-verbal language and the acceptance of nuance, hyperbole, sarcasm, satire and humor in these discussions. I'm so sick of a world where every discussion has to be taken so seriously you can't have fun or even break the tension with a joke... That's my problem with any of these hardcore advocates - they've completely forgotten how to engage in a way that's fun.
For sure. His first panel on this subject was with people who have very differing views on trancel culture. Which certainly was entertaining but at the same time very shallow. Here everyone agreed on what to do about the subject - talk about it, don't cancel people. But underneath there was massive disagreements like transgender is a delusion, never transition regardless of what the data says, to it being an intrinsic identity and transition as early as possible as long as it's done right.
I really enjoy both types of panels though. Everything is better than the typical circle-jerky twitch panels where the only disagreements is about something like optics or semantics.
Destiny's chat is like a car wreck I cant stop subjecting myself to. Instead of mutilated bodies it's the most socially inept children who have never broke a sweat other than going downstairs for dinner.
Wow u sound very grown up and cool, want a cookie big mature man?😃
@@narutolikestoes9028 Exhibit A
Am I wrong about this or didn't Michael Jackson turn white because of vitiligo and not because he surgically changed his skin?
A phalloplasty does not look like a penis.
GREAT VIDEO. Tons of disagreement, tons of tension, tons of agreement, GREAT Discussion. Probably need someone a little more far left, but people were cordial, even when Destiny was a little aggressive, nobody took it to heart. Damnit, if only I only lived in a world with just the people in this panel, we'd be soooo better off.
Do you not live on the same planet as the people in the panel
@@smallbonesrs some people don't. CZcams's presence spans many galaxies.
@@RoyGBiv-lc8tv amazin
I really wish Destiny had pushed Nick on the "which bathroom should Buck use" question more. I'm curious what Nick would do if he saw Buck come out of the women's room after his daughter with no knowledge of who Buck is. obviously he would assume Buck was born male, if Buck claimed that he was FTM how would Nick verify this? and what's to stop predatory cis men from claiming they are FTM?
This is the first time I've actually watched a full debate on this topic. Never something that interested me
Buck seems like a good dude.
I think he is quite chill - he says a lot of dumb stuff about trans issues, but I feel like that's because he comes from an older generation that's seemingly more conservative on that stuff, rather than being maliciously transphobic
He is! He’s such an important voice today.
I'm kind of sick how Mr Girl interacts with people
I’m only 10mins in but so far this is one of the most honest trans conversations I’ve ever heard.
Wtf no they were completely out of it. Disregarded other people to be a pickme and wants to just make up shit about the modern generation
what game is destiny playing?
I don't know where I stand on the nuance of this topic, but Buck is fantastic to hear from. Not shying away from any of the most intimate or curious questions, taking it on the chin with such authenticity. I can really be educated by someone like him.
Great panel put together by Mrgirl. Interesting topics and questions. People who genuinely want to have a conversation. Nobody talking over each other; very formal. Very nice
Put together by Mrgirl. Nice brain washing.
@@matthewtyree9893 I thought I heard him talk about putting it together and contacting Dick Masterson to moderate. My bad, if I'm not caught up on the lore.
Hello, what game is destizzle playing you guys?
MrGirl is so hung up on trans being an ideology, he kinda doesn't get why trans people have to transition and it's pretty funny.
Some of this is interesting, but you gotta be careful about all the concern trolling from the right. At the end of the day, 1/3 the people on here would probably make being trans illegal if they could.
As a lay person I can tell you I can’t be canceled for being transphobic. Sure my 0 sub CZcams channel can get banned, but if you told my boss I was being transphobic, he’d be like, Based.
What game is being played here?
I know that using analogies is kind of second rate but I really think it makes sense to compare trans folks to adoptive parents.
Do trans folks/adoptive parents share a biological connection with the social role that they’re fulfilling? Nope.
Does the fact that there’s no biological connection matter? Probably not around 95% of the time. At the doctor’s, definitely. Day to day? Probably not, and it’s kind of a crummy thing to insist that an adoptive family isn’t really a family and shouldn’t call themselves a family.
I’d still expect Mr.Girl to say that an adopted child who said that their adopted parent was their mom or dad was a lying, unethical little shit though.
Mr Girl would literally go up to a fat guy at the gym and just say "why are you even bothering bro, everyone hates their body just get used to it" like damn any form of happiness and self improvement is just not allowed in his world. Is he Ok?
might as well not take aspirin when you have a headache
Yea he's very stupid at times
@@setanta9287 yeah i think he has a background in personal training
No. Do you not understand how intellectually dishonest what you posted is?
Im not defending Mrgirl, but if we are going to he honest, everyone at one time has thought to themsleves and has questioned whether something that is in our brain and feelings (only) is something that can be permanently alleviated with medicine and/or surgery.
Schizophrenia is a good example to compare.
You can treat schizophrenia temporarily, but not permanently.
So one has to wonder the same for GD.
Its not a bad question, ya know?
what game is Destiny playing?
What game is destiny playing during this talk? Anyone know?
The game is called "The last spell" It looks pretty damn fun
Mr. Girl saw Sherlock Holmes and thought he could pull off his intelligent, but cold demeanor. Instead, he's like the trailer park version.
Totally, I genuinely don’t get the appeal. Suddenly the slimeball is everywhere.
He’s gotten way too comfortable and loose. He was in character about 6 weeks ago, but he’s gradually demystifying himself
@@makidiaz3894 is his character the “Sherlock Holmes” impersonation?
Dude you are totally wrong, he saw too much always sunny and now he trying to emulated dennis lol.
Mom, can we have Sherlock Holmes?
No baby, we have Sherlock Holmes at home.
I would KILL to see Buck Angel on a panel with DemonMama.
Oh you know she'd bail out after five minutes. She'd repeat his question, go off on a huge non-sequitur, then have him "disconnect".
@@kaldrake2167 To be clear, I don't wanna see it because I think DemonMama would comport himself well. I wanna see it because I wanna see how badly he flounders when confronted with an actual trans person.
...which is exactly why it would never actually happen.
@@cazcow
You don’t think she’s actually trans like Buck? I hadn’t thought of that.
@@kaldrake2167 I don't at all. DM is something, but trans doesn't seem like it. It strikes me as demeaning to even compare people like Buck Angel and Harisu to someone like DemonMama. Their struggles with identity appear to be nothing alike.
@@cazcow
Well you probably know more then I do. Only stuff I’ve seen from DM is through Vaush and Destiny, so it’s very limited.
Whats the name of the game destiny is playing
I think if you had Spokespersons like Buck Angel, the whole topic would be much more understandable to people who may have different views than having so-called "Activist" who call people transphobes when you question them. I think it was really refreshing to hear his views and he did a great job in explaining them. This was a great Debate because everybody was respectful and that's how it should be.
actually a panel where my brains werent bleeding love it
To Lauren's question. Yes, as a kid I remember feeling very awkward at school around the age of puberty. I was a lot later then most and some my mates had facial hair very early. I definitely had some form of body dysphoria and if this ideology was around back then.. atleast for acouple years there it could of been me. Most kids are desperate to fit in, but rarely do. The thinking for me would of been.. I can have a new body? Maybe now I will fit in, while every pro trans person claps you on to go for it!
Maybe around 17 I started to really build confidence, had my first relationship. I really just needed to accept myself.
Same. I was an athlete and very tiny girl so I had puberty way later than most girls my age. I had a boyfriend for social reasons & going to prom etc, but I realize now that I'm older that I didn't truly like boys in "that way" during high school. I was never boyish, but I def didn't feel like what society considers a woman (or what I look like now). I think that's true of many late bloomers. I can't imagine if I had the pressure these kids have to decide gender & sexuality as part of my identity
@@scarletsletter4466 My little sister never had a chance to be girly! With 2 older brothers and living in the country on a farm.. she never had a chance! Haha if ya hit her she hit us back just as hard. We were always proud of her!
A old saying "we must mold these kids". And it's very true, we need to watch out who's molding them.
what game is in the background at the start?
What game is Destiny playing?
I lived to watch Dick Masterson make mrgirl's questions less inflammatory
The issue I have on this topic when it comes to younger kids is the topic of "evaluation". Kalvin quotes evidence and research like it is solid...but anyone who has practiced medicine knows that evidence changes dramatically over the years and softer sciences like psychology especially are harder to have really good quality evidence on things so complex. You can study chemical and neurological changes but using that to infer you can truly predict something like gender dysphoria and rule out other issues is 'iffy' at best.
In orthopedic medicine for example we have an insane time even truly diagnosing what the cause of half of our observable physical issues are, let alone how to treat them properly. There's a meme where doctors just slap a "Trochanteric Bursitis" label on side hip pain because it checks a few diagnostic boxes when half the time it has nothing to do with a bursa. Over the years in a lot of fields we gain new evidence and realize "Oh.... those diagnostic tests or treatments we used to use? Yeah they were pure BS".
And there is no way I believe that for something as complicated as gender dysphoria the science is fleshed out enough to let kids make permanent changes to their bodies based on a therapists evaluation. Especially when I hate to say it..... ..... diagnosis is based on subjective reporting, and people can lie or skew their experiences. Therapists aren't lie detectors or superhuman.
@socially unacceptable Except you can't truly "detransition". If you mistreat someone's hip you can often keep treating it and try other things. As the treatments often are fairly harmless.
If someone transitions they permanently alter their body. Saying we should let teenagers who are still developing, finding their own identity and in a time period where mental illness is likely higher than it's ever been, be diagnosed by therapists with an unreliable science..... .... doesn't make sense.
When you're an adult you can decide and live with whatever choice you make.
We tend to highlight people like Kalvin that say transitioning was great but often don't pay attention to those that are hit with the reality of detransitioning. Some folks have been misdiagnosed, transitioned and later realized it didn't fix their problems and suddenly they're screwed.
Regarding puberty blocker benefits to children; 30 is actually quite a lot, when you consider the minority of children that express gender dysphoria, and factor in when the studies took place, where they took place and the length of the studies. The same criticism of the lack of numerical data can be applied to the gender-wage gap, the female online harrassment issue, the trans sports issue, the mass shooting issue, etc.
Tell me how Caucasian you are without using the word Caucasian.
Dick Masterson: Can I get a Te-cotty?
Isn’t Dick Mexican?
It's really cool to have 2 trans men give their perspective on things. Buck is way more based than I thought, and Kalvin gave a more progressive spin on things which was really cool :)
Most OG trans folks I’ve talked to over the years are super based.
@@Sleepytechnician True. I've only ever heard about Buck Angel and he unfortunately get's painted as this crazy far-right person, but he's very reasonable.
@@skibee it is truly disappointing that he gets painted that way because he’s exactly the kind of person to get some of the hard liners to begin understanding issues relating to gender and transgender issues.
Anyone got the link to Tranpa's onlyfans link?
love the different takes!
Obamna
After watching this, I have come to the realization, many of my 'anti-trans' stances are simple just because I am aware of a small militant portion of people who will weaponize the rules and exceptions we make to accommodate trans people. I've only met one other person like Buck (And Taftaj) in my life.. and dead-ass if it weren't for people like them, I'd probably be easily convinced every trans person is a fucking wack job. This is why it is important to have conversations with people outside of your norm. I could only imagine what biases I would have, had I never met people like them.
Your profile is a pic of Sowell. You obviously have no concept of reality and judge everything based purely on your own feelings and stern father ethics.
Now. To the point, what sort of things can weaponising rules and laws do? Please give a specific buddy
@@bertthompson4748 probably the first person right or left I’ve seen have a bad opinion of Thomas Sowell but with the extremely emotionally charged post, I get it.
@@johnmorris8444 name 1 of his economic predictions hes gotten right.
Hes the one who spreads the myth about welfare not making peoples lives better despite every economic calculator, except earnings, saying otherwise.
I.e consumption
@@bertthompson4748 how has welfare as a whole helped the community? Is this a troll? It’s an extremely in depth and complicated subject but handing people money and incentivizing single parenthood has not helped society as a whole. The idea of welfare doesn’t sound bad on its face but the repercussions have devastated poor communities. Who would have though just handing money to people would not only not solve their problems but make them worse.
@@johnmorris8444 its almost like theres a wealth of socialogical, health and economic data showing poor people exist no matter what society we have so maybe we should make sure they aren't begging on the streets and can take care of themselves and their kids.
Its amazing you think theres some preponderance of evidence showing welfare is bad when you just have to look at the countries that are happiest, healthiest and have the best overall outcomes and compare it to their social welfare spending.
Like all of scandanavia and most of Europe and NZ and Australia.
Mate, this is basic stuff
Destiny, cutting into someone's brain would tell you absolutely nothing about whether or not someone has ADHD.
What game is he playing?
As soon as someone refuses to answer a simple hypo they are not engaging honestly. They are too afraid to actually think and challenge what they believe.
Not sure who you are referring to in the convo but I disagree. Simple hypotheticals are extremely easy to bad faith for the sole purpose of smearing someone instead of having a nuanced conversation. Vaush is the first person who comes to mind with this tactic
If Mr. Girl actually had a degree in psychology, he would know that gender dysphoria is a very real thing. He is being presented with evidence and saying he doesn't believe it.
Kalvin has had a few college classes on psychology, and is more informed. Mr. Girl always sounds like a caricature of what a psychologist is. Mr. Girk was kicked out of his college I believe. And it's easy to tell. He is just kind of a guy who thinks he is really profound but lacks any kind of self awareness.
you think you need to accept gender theory as undeniable fact to be awarded a degree?
Mr. Girl is such a 2. Amirite babbka
Most of us that have a degree in psychology also have no idea who John Money (the person who came up with the term "gender") is, and if we did, NONE of us would believe in gender theory because of how he coined the term gender, which led to the suicide of two men.
Basically mrgirl's approach is that gender dysphoria/body dysphoria are just the product of being insecure/not accepting yourself as you are and instead of helping people get treatment for it we should instead teach them to cope with it or accept themselves and push for a world where gender ideals aren't a thing, which in the long run would help people out more than having them "run away from their problems" by modifying themselves and risking irreversible damage to some who didn't see clearly at the time, etc. It is quite an utopian perspective I think but it's not like it's based on nothing.
@@0doublezero0 Oh, so he's even more of an idiot than the clip implied.
Woman = adult human female. The complete opposite of complicated or nuanced.
Why is what parents teach children automatically less offensive than the state? I would rather our kids be taught the consensus of opinions from the entire bottom up and then top down, than taught fringe opinions by their insane parents.
Dick was trying his hardest to not be involved at all.
Not sure what you watched yet it clearly wasn't this vid
@@robpom5501 who?
Dick makes a lot of money off of patreon. He wasn't lying when he said he was afraid of saying anything about trans issues because his income could get taken away.
@@esotericoutcast641 yeah I'm pretty sure he already got his income cut off once through his bank so he probably doesnt want to go through that shitstorm again.
I completely disagree with Destiny's portrayal that on the other side there are people saying that "trans people aren't real at all".
That's ridiculous and I've never heard it once. In fact this is a common strawman argument that pro-trans people put out --> "Recognize our existance" "Won't erase our existance".
Again, nobody disagrees they exist, we disagree on the better ways to address that situation.
I felt like Destiny was being disingenuous there.
Mr Girl literally doesn’t believe they are real
He’s arguing hyperbolically but he’s not completely wrong. He’s saying that those people basically just don’t think the experience of trans people are real, and advocate ineffective measures to resolve it.
And come on, there definitely is an extreme where people think they’re not real. That’s what he was saying. There’s that on one extreme and then the other extreme where deer gender is a thing. So if you’re not on either extreme then you’re not on that extreme.
"nobody disagrees they exist, we disagree on the better ways to address that situation." But this is exactly the issue.
Basically what Destiny's comment means is that a lot of people don't believe that transpeople should be a thing, that transitioning in itself doesn't make sense and anyone who is trans does it for wrong or stupid reasons.
In other words, that transpeople aren't "real" because in reality they are just confused gay people or losers seeking attention and not actually presenting a real condition.
@@Ram-mu7kl Again, this doesn't feel like an honest representation of what's being said. Trans people exist, obviously. But then the argument becomes that transitioning doesn't work as much as it's pretended to address that underlying mental condition and help it get better, which is true.
None of this is a complete denial of existance as destiny pretended.
@@Mant111 Well but you're also misrepresenting a lot when you say "we just mean that transitioning doesn't work as much as it's pretended", there are very loud voices, you can find videos of rallies and politicians who do argue that transpeople shouldn't be accepted cause they are degenerates and the entire concept is just pretending for whatever reason.
Of course Destiny is being hyperbolic for the sake of making the point that there are way too many voices loudly arguing stupid crap. The same way he says there are a lot of leftist idiots fighting for deer genders, these are still the minority, but the point is that the conversation is muddled up by bullshit. You can agree with that or not, but if your point is that he is maliciously misrepresenting your side, I think that's just not the case.
My partner's best friend tried to convince her that she was trans because she doesn't like dresses.
As a biological female, I feel I should be able to walk down dark allies late at night and not feel unsafe... but I know reality is I am not safe doing that.
So, I respect reality and dont do that.
All trans women feel they should be able to use the womens restroom and not have women feel unsafe... but the reality is they cant.
Just because you feel you should have the right to something, doesnt mean you always will.
Its the world we live in, and until a lot of the male species stop praying on women and children (especially in vulnerable spaces meant to be a place they should expect a modicum of privacy and safety) this will continue.
You can either accept and respect it, or deny it and continue to be part of the problem.
Simple as.
So are you not cautious or careful to protect yourself around other women? Do you not perceive women as threats or potential predators?
@@6hostii your arguments is called "whataboutism".
I am cautious of everyone, but I (and 99% women statistically) have yet to be SA'd in any way by a bio female in a public space... especially one meant for females only.
And even if some women are dangerous and it does happen very occasionally, that doesnt take away the reality and truth of my point about men.
Anyone with eyes and a brain knows that bio men are the majority problem (many times over) when it comes to females and children SAs.
I don’t wanna be that guy, but a consistent svicid3 rate pre and post transition doesn’t substantiate the claim that it is “alleviating” the underlying dysphoria
Wait Lauren thinks Michael Jackson changed his skin colour to white? She said it with so much conviction too. Pretty much sums her up.
Why did no one push back 😂
I think this is a pretty common myth because of the jokes made about Michael Jackson getting plastic surgery a lot for his nose and his skin condition actually making his skin paler.
I genuinely wished someone had corrected her
It is a popular myth. But a myth nonetheless
I mean, he _technically_ did though, didn't he? Wasn't it already changing in batches due to his disease so he just bleached it all to hide that/etc?
Pre Mr.Girl downfall he was seemingly a cool guy
Them: 2+2=4
MrGirl: But I don't necissarily agree with that
I’m a cis man now, but when I was younger I experienced gender dysphoria several times. It is a visceral feeling. I felt like I wanted to jump out of my skin. I was disgusted at my manness and disgusted at myself. In that moment I felt that I should be a woman and that something about me was deeply wrong. It’s a feeling that is so hard to put into words; it’s like an ache, this terrible feeling. I’m fortunate that I only felt it a couple times. I’ve wished I was cooler or hotter and fit in better, we’ve all wanted to be something we aren’t. But gender dysphoria is so much deeper than that and I think it’s a sensation that a lot of cis people can never fully understand
what's a cis man.. you mean ..a man ? it doesn't need a prefix im not sure how this trend started.
Well maybe because cis people don't conceptualise being a man or woman as being necessarily related to a certain behavior or presentation. Lots of women are pretty masculine, never wear dresses or makeup, they still think they are women, because for them what "woman" means is just having a vagina and boobs and doesn't entail to anything more. It might not be that cis people are the same gender as their sex, but that they don't conceptualise how they present as being ever related to wether they are men or women.
@@debordeleur2005 exactly the social construct B's is so crazy lol can we just tell the truth hurt the people feelings.
If your a man guess what your a man how you act doesn't change that.
@Rose Anne Boushard
Yeah and there are plenty of gay men who just like to be feminine... And act that way... Even lesbians so um something is not right here they are breaking the social construct so easily what's going on here.
@@chadntm8189 cis means not transgender
This was a GREAT discussion of the issues and concerns around a highly contentious topic. It actually changed my way of thinking about some of the issues.
I need to say I disagree in many points here with Destiny. About puberty blockers and health interventions on kids: My brother had a malformed sinus (breathing channel) and cartilage. He had problems breathing when he had the flu or similar illnesses. Still all the MDs (including my father who is an orthopedist) said he should wait until he is fully grown. This has two big reasons which directly connect to the Hippocratic oath and ethics in medicine. The first is: to ensure that every intervention has the maximal positive outcome for the patients health the interventions should be kept minimally invasive and the least possible. Children and teenagers are not fully grown yet and if an ailment is not hugely affecting the daily life, it should rather be considered to be eleviated when the child has left puberty. If someone has unrelenting dysphoria, after careful and extensive probing, they should get access to puberty blockers. But careful and extensive means 1-2 years therapy and talking to multiple experts. I also don't think there is a large number of people fitting those criteria. Those Does and whatnot would fail in my process and be prescribed therapy for delusions.