Could Napoleon have won at Waterloo? Grouchy marches to the sound of the guns. PART TWO
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2024
- Welcome to the exciting conclusion of our live Napoleonic wargame! Can the Prussians hold off Grouchy's assault and let the rest of their army reach Waterloo and save Wellington?
Watch the first part here: • Could Napoleon have wo...
Matt and Sean arrive to find Ben and Austin have deployed to stop them along a ridge at Chappelle St. Lambert. Join us and find out whether Grouchy can lead the French to cut the road to Waterloo and save Napoleon!
00:00 Intro
01:10 Scenario
02:30 Turn 1
05:39 Turn 2
11:23 Turn 3
16:55 Turn 4
22:48 Turn 5
Many thanks and apologies to General Tippelskirch. - Krátké a kreslené filmy
A great 2-parter guys! Love the footage from Belgium and the game looks great. Eager to see the changes to Napoleons Battles. That’s an old classic desperately in need of a modern rewrite
They have been rewritten, 3x as a matter of fact as they're using the 4th edition rules from 2015, not the original A-H rules from the 90s.
A major thing which is not touched with regards to how Grouchy marching towards the guns and intercepting the Prussians could have affected the outcome of the main battle at Waterloo is battlefield psychology. Whereas Blucher wanted to beat Napoleon and aid Wellington at all costs, Gneisenau was definately not as sanguine and was a far more cautious general. Now imagine that when they are marching towards Plancenoit to attack Napoleon’s flank, Grouchy’s forces appear on their own flank. Would the Prussian comand keep IV Corps and I Corps marching towards the big battle at Mont-Saint-Jean, or would the Prussians first try to save their own hide and not trust their fate on the luck of II Corps. Grouchy’s appearance at Chapelle Saint Lambert might have very well redirected some of those other forces to beaf up the Prussian flank or might have even halted the entire Prussian advance.
It is safe to say that Grouchy appearing would at the very least have diluted Prussian strenght at Plancenoit, which would have made Napoleon’s job of holding his own right flank and rear easier and would have left him with more units to combat the British line. After all, Napoleon had to deploy Lobau’s 6th Corps, the 8 batallions of Young Guard and even a couple of Old Guard batallions to hold off the Prussians at Plancenoit.
As to the comments below that Wellington could also have ordered his 17.000 men stationed at Halle to rejoin him as a matching movement for Grouchy’s hypothetical flank march: that force was stationed some 16 kilometers away from the battlefield. At no time during 18 June 1815 did Wellington - who was always looking over his shoulders towards safeguarding his rear and connection tot he sea - send orders for them to come marching towards the guns. And a 16 kilometer march would have costed - even over today’s modern roads - at least 4 hours so in those days that would have been 5 to 7 hours over bad roads an through forested land. So to be at (the closing of) the battle, they would have to have started their own march at around 14.30-15.00 hours the very latest. And you can’t start marching upon the moment of receipt of orders, no, you need to dispatch orders in turn to your own subordinate commanders, organize marching columns and so on. And that takes time. It’s safe to say that if Wellington had’nt send a dispatch rider by 12.30-13.00 the latest, that force at Halle would never have been in the fighting at all.
was a pleasure to read. Thank you for sharing.
Great game guys, but you now have to do part 3 which is Waterloo when the Prussians arrive and then Grouchy arrives the next turn and does that make a difference?
That's my question too. The Prussians would have been looking over their shoulders and The French 1st corps would have been reinforcements for Napoleon. Blucher would have to send rear area forces to deal with Grouche thus affecting the battlefield at Waterloo. A coin toss instead of a rout.
As said elsewhere the impact on the battle at Plancenoit with less Prussian infantry follow-on ... the French rear might have held and they did occupy this farm at some point only to be overwhelmed. And as others noted, Grouchy on the Prussian tail could have been another major difference. It is well documented that Napoleon's defeat by one factor was Grouchy's lack of presence at Waterloo. Note Grouch did defeat the Prussians at Wavre, two days aftet Waterloo was done and dusted.
Erm...documented by whom?
The last piece i read was Andrew Fields "Grouchy's Waterloo' in which is concluded that it was the fault of Staff/Ney/Nappy, not his.
The prussian forces at Waterloo are msinly The 4th Corps plus 1 Brigade of the 1st.
Both are already hours away from our scene, highly unlikely that our What if would lead to another course here.
@@johannesmuther2599 highly unlikely? Really. Napoleon's instructions were "keep a sword in their back" or something to that effect. So if Grouchy had followed these instructions and not let the Prussians rejoin Washington ... then???
@@jimmyboy2 by what time do you think the tip of Grouchy's column could be around St. Lambert?
My calculations that include the marching distance plus the time to distribute a complete new set of orders and organize a marching order take him there around 1700 at best.
By this time the 4th Corps is already commited and 6-8 km away.
BTW it took Bülow 3hrs to collect his forces and bring them into attack formation.
Grouchy would have the same problem.
He must stop at a safe distance from the spotted prussians, find out whats going on, who he is facing, how strong is the enemy and so on. After that, he must throw up a plan, bring his force from a looooooong stretched marching column into attacking formation, and, and, and.
And we have not giving thoughts about possible actions of the prussian 3.Corps.
Are they setting idle or would they spring into action noticing the french movement?
To sum it up, to reach the battlefield in time, the french would have to put up enormous speed in combination with blind prussian dumbasses.
Grouchy was incompetent fool. He destroyed a winnable chance for the Emperor.
Poor Ernst Ludwig von Tippelskirch. He had a daughter in 1823 who actually became a famous German composer and singer. While her father will be a hero of Germany, Louise Tippelskirche's music will never be heard.
That is a stupidity. Von Tippelskirch would never died like that. It is no prove about that could be in any alternative history or the battle. Why killing so gifted man in any case, if he survived Napoleonic wars in real history. That could do make just ignorant people of European history.
Greeting from one of your three German viewers. I had a great laugh on your Tippelskirchen pronounciation :)
In the alternate history, there is now a Pocket battleship named Tippekskirch at Jutland.
So many ask the question about what if grouchy had marched to Waterloo but nobody considers that if the entire french army was committed to combat on the day that Wellington could have called his own forces not committed who were maning garrison's in the area, the Hanoverian reserves and the British 7th division, in total around 15,500 infantry.
Well done! A great example of “what if”… investigated in a thorough manner.
From the result of the battle, and the defeat of the Prussian Second Corps, I wonder if the French Right Wing wouldn't be right behind the Prussians as they arrived at Waterloo. This would significantly change the impact that the arrival of Blucher's men had at Plancenoit.
Great question! Some people have suggested that the Prussians didn’t meaningfully affect the outcome, but it still might be exciting to play out
IMO this was fun but not that historical.
@@Carl-MGR Considering also the sight of Grouchy's arrival on the tails of the Prussians...what would have been the effect on the morale of the two armies engaged at Waterloo? Especially the Dutch and Belgian contingents of the Allied force? Would word of a second Prussian defeat have shaken their commitment? Would Wellington have prudently decided to withdraw?
And what would have been the political consequences of this?
I think it's fair to say that many questions would arise from even a 'minor tactical victory' for Napoleon on the field of the Battle of Waterloo.
That was great, thank you.
I only have one remark. What's to stop the French from marching on the same road, to hit the Prussian on their rear Frank in Placenoit.
The prussian 2nd and maybe 3rd Corps
Your idea is very good! that could be a solution for winning the battle of Waterloo by Napoleon and the Frenchman army. Good thinking!
So good to see Napoleon's Battles being played! Underappreciated classic rule set imho. Would love to know what modifications you guys made to the rules. NB definitely deserves a better modern update than they've been given with 4E.
Thank you for the video! All the best, and happy gaming!
Really enjoyed watching especially your moving of troops and and firing if the artillery
Really good to watch. The fun you guys were having was infectious. What a great hobby, we are blessed to have it in our lives. In also keen to read the revisions you’ve made to Naps Battles. A ruleset i played and enjoyed for 25 years, but haven’t played for about 8 as i fell out of love with the command radius checks at the start of each turn. From the video looks like you’ve changed that to order / command cards?
Fantastic editing. A lot of work has gone into that. Great game. Keep up the good work! 😃
Enjoyed the battle - I have "Napoleons Battles" and will review that chart card when I watch again ! I also have "Napoleons Last Battles" quad and will review the "Wavre" battle too for OOB;s and map, etc. ?? THANKS for your videos ! :-)
Awesome! Thanks for showing the whole battle with all the banter and die rolls.
Excellent! Great concept creating a great wargame.
Great job, well battled on both sides and interesting development to another perhaps at Waterloo!!! Keep it going & looking forward to see more!
I'm loving this so far
Great work! I love the closeups to show off the minis, but a few more establishing shots throughout would help with following the gameplay. Keep up the awesome work!
Im pretty sure the prussian 1st Corps took a more northern route and were out of striking distance.
From a operational point of view you created the scenario with the most likely reaction of the prussians.
I think you are correct. It were IV Corps (Bulow) and II Corps (Pirch) who marched through Chapelle St. Lambert towards Plancenoit were they duked it out with the French 6th Corps (Lobau), Young Guard and a few battalions of,Old Gyard, whereas I Corps (Zieten) marched northernly and ended up on Wellington's extreme left.
Another great episode. Definitely a fan of these 2-parters showing the actual battle ground with some exploration of how it impacted the commanders decisions, followed by the tabletop game. This one was a little hard to follow without understanding what the rules were, so will definitely help to see the rules discussion video.
So a solid 10 for the series. Having Herodotus return to narrate the between-turns exposition would have dialed it up to an 11… :)
Awesome game play 🎉
Thanks!
Great stuff! Thanks from New Zealand. It's a bit of a challenge visiting European battlefields from here...
Great video of a very interesting game! Keep up the good work!
Great battlerep!! Where are the rules changes to Napoleon's Battles explained?
Is the scenario available to be used at all? I thought it excellent. Many thanks.
The II Prussian corps had four brigades of infantry, each about 1.5 times the size of a French division and IIRC they had about double the cavalry
v interested in your choice of rules, Naps BAtts were my goto rules 10 years ago, I'll be interested to see your mods
Mark made some fun changes which I think keep the game fresh despite being a pretty venerable ruleset
Tippelskirch. How hard is it to pronounce correctly? Greetings from Germany 😅
I feel like the Prussians, already in place would have killed a good amount of French just trying to get into position from column. The battle started with every set up and in fire lines…did they not get any attacks in when they came up the road marching along?
How could Napoleon win the Northern campaign in Belgium, 1815, in alternative history version? Very simple. If Blucher died during of the battle of Ligny, on 17th of June, 1815. That battle would become very decisive for the Frenchman and Napoleon. So, the battle of the Waterloo never happened and France would be a winner on the battlefield in Belgium. Simple as that! Why make a very complicated alternative version of some new battle near Wavre or somewhere else. Napoleon was just not get some lucky on the battlefront and he choose two fools for leading French army on the right and left flanks. And that was really fatal too for loosing the crucial battles. Be saluted!
you should add a link to part one in the comments
The campaign should have started before the french entered Belgium for this series to make sense. After Ligny the choices are rather pointless.
If you check out our Waterloo block campaign video (turn 1 hitting next week), that’s a little closer to the premise you’re asking for
I agree with you! I see you understand this theme very well. And you are realistic thinker too. Be saluted!
I like the strategic moves resulting in tactical battles
You need to invest in better mike and camera;)
i do not understand why Grouchy was even sent away ?
Napoleon panicked try to do to much, he should keep pushing the Prussian which was the weak lead army and made Wellington come to there aid or forget about them and concentrate on Wellington who politically he had to defeat
My opinion is that sent a Grouchy away to follow the Prussians ( 55 000 soldiers ) with just 30 000 French soldiers ( 33% of Napoleon total Army ) was Emperor mistake. I know, he tried to watching and separated Prussians for rescuing Wellington forces, but Blucher outmaneuvered Grouchy forces and come on the Waterloo battlefield on perfect time. So, if Grouchy was really an Idiot general, than the solution of Napoleon victory is not separated own forces. He must just give Grouchy one simple task, when the battle of Waterloo started: watch Wellington right flank and in the crucial moment stop linking Coalition forces with the Prussians before that really happened. In the same time, Napoleon could beat Wellington forces without own last reserves ( Imperial Guard ) and than, when Wellington retreat to Brussels, he could help Grouchy to finally beat the Prussians. And, on 19th of June, 1815, Napoleon is a winner of the Northern campaign. He was beaten Prussians decisively near Waterloo and not decisively the Wellington forces. But, than, what can Wellington doing from Brussels? Nothing! Just retreating to England! PS: If you like, you can watch a brilliant video, on CZcams ( 11 minutes ), Waterloo ( 1815 ) Animation, by Corvus. If you do that, you would understand what I am talking ( 100% ). Bye for now and always do asking. Because, that doing an intelligent persons.
Grouchy was sent to pursue the Prussians defeated at Ligny. The idea was to prevent them from regrouping and then striking west to join forces with Wellington.
@@sirrathersplendid4825 Yes! On the paper that decision looks good. But, in the reality, that was a disaster for French army and Napoleon. Napoleon could win the Northern campaign, in June, 1815. The better idea for Napoleon was not to split forces, after the Battle of Ligny; and confronting with all what French army got near Waterloo village, on 18th of June. Why? Because, later, Grouchy corps was outflanked from Blucher army. And, that was decisive for Wellington and the Battle of Waterloo. What I would doing on the Napoleon position, after Ligny? Because, Ligny was not become a decisive battle, I would keep my forces concentrated and Grouchy would got just one task, on my right flank: be careful about Blucher army when he want made a link with Wellington army, on my right or enemy left flank. If you ask me, that was a better option. Because, chasing Blucher army and not necessary Battle for Wavre was disaster for Napoleon and French Northern armee. I will not tell you that would be a winnable battle for the French 100%. But, they would got much more chances to win Waterloo or made some another solution like a draw. Not total defeat, like in real history battle, on 18th of June, 1815. Be saluted and bye for now!
grouchy should never have left nappy in the first place
he was ordered by Nappy as you say , no Napoleon should persuade the the Prussians and made Wellington come to him
As a frenchmen I can confirm this would be the result if Grouche marched to the sound of the guns
I will suggest you watch the great Waterloo ( 1815 ) Animation, by Corvus, on CZcams ( 11 minutes ). Why? Because, in that video you will see that Marshall Ney could help Napoleon on time, when he was fighting against Blucher, on 17th of June, 1815, near Ligny. In that scenario The Battle of Ligny could be decisive victory for Napoleon and French army. That means, would never happened the battle of Waterloo, because the Prussians would be totally defeated a day before. So, Wellington will doing a strategical retreat and Grouchy and his Corps would be not important. Than, Napoleon will taken Brussels and annexed all Belgium. That could be a proved theory that Napoleon will shine again, after one year later he lost the war for France ( 1814 ). Be saluted and do not believe all to this English guys. They always would try to prove that Napoleon will loose that campaign anyway and always. But, that is a false fact. Because, Napoleon was got a good plan to win in the Belgium. Two problems were for Emperor at this time: Ney, left flank and Grouchy, right flank. Not Napoleon mistakes or the terrain on the battlefield.
@@DaliborPerkovic-sw8mh it nice to see someone did a what if alternative version that has Wellington with he veratrin's from Spain instead and army of 2nd untested units i don't think the French get past the 16th before they running back home
@@daniellastuart3145 Thank you for your answer. If you ask me, the alternative history of Napoleonic wars is a science. Not just a game of some grow up people, who played imagine the Battle of Waterloo, like chess or some other social game. This is not alternative history. It is just a social game. And my opinion is that Napoleon could win the battle of Waterloo before even it happened. Be saluted and stay sharp and brilliant man!
💂💂💂
Great Job! The French WIN!!!!!
Question:
Victory at Waterloo would not have changed the outcome of the war only delayed it.
Napoleon would still have had to deal with a weekend but not eliminated British army. The Prussians would have re-organized and come back. The Austrians would’ve joined in. The Russians would’ve still made it to Paris. Waterloo significant only because Napoleon last Battle.
The battle certainly mattered to these guys fighting and dying to hold the hill!
The Austrians and the Russians were not automatically going to join in they each had their own self intrest and the collation barley stuck together in 1814.
Davout was in Paris with a second French Army of 100k plus ready to deal wih the Ausrtians and Russians
@@suzsam17 Have you actually read anything about the wider campaign in 1815? There was fighting along the Rhine and guess who's armies had crossed the French border there, not only Austrian and Russian troops but German states troops too. Look up the Battle of La Suffel.
Absolutely correct, french border forces hopelessly overstreched. No hope to win this campaign even if they would have won the campaign in Belgium
Superb guys, please keep this idea going and cover other historical scenarios 🪖🥁
Ya just don't, rather shouldn't send cavalry against a square. That's the entire point of the square formation, yet the french did that. To be fair the French army at Waterloo was not the same french army it was at Austerlitz. The entire cadre of self made competent generals boney cultivated? Many of them were dead at this point, and many of his veterans were dead or past the age of serving at this point. So at waterloo while you did have a lot of veterans, you had substantially more people who had been raised by his veterans, they grew up with tales of his invincibility and so thought that they would win no matter what. You never charge a square, you bring in the guns. Which is what he should have done, he was a damn artillery commander for hecks sake, he should have known that. Waterloo is so interesting because these were soldiers who hadn't fought (on either side) in the continental campaigns or even the peninsular campaigns. So it really boiled down to tactics and not experience, n the brits had figured out how to defeat the betrayer of the revolution's, I'm sorry, the emperor's columns way back in portugal. Even Julius didn't have the cojones to call himself an emperor.
Napoleon is still defeated, but Grouchy has no criticism from later generations of military historians.
Yes! But, he was the biggest fool on the battlefield called Waterloo and Wavre. I mean Grouchy, not Napoleon. Because, he got a right idea how to win all the Northern campaign, in Belgium. Simple as that! Be saluted!
Sorry that was flank
Unless you take into consideration the battles of Ligny and Wavre, then no Napoleon will still lose at Waterloo. The British and the Prussians had fought a divided French army and withdrew from each fight in good order. If the French had won Wavre and defeated the Prussians then Wellington would have lost at Waterloo. Or there may not even have been a fight at that location. No Prussian allies and a unified French army would have crushed the Anglo German force.
If the French would win the battle of Ligny decisively, on 17th of June, 1815, would never be a battle of Waterloo and the battle of Wavre. Please, watch on the CZcams great "Waterloo ( 1815 ) Animation, by Corvus". And, you will see that Napoleon could win the Northern Campaign against 7th Coalition. Bye and please check that video!
depends on the state of the French army after crushing the Prussians
@@daniellastuart3145 wellington decided to stand at Waterloo because he heard that the Prussians were successful at Wavre and were on the way. It was still a gamble on wellingtons part as he had to hold the french untill Blucher arrived. Even then it was a close run thing.
@@daniellastuart3145Yes! It really depends! If the Prussians were crushed near Ligny on the decisive way, we would never saw any version of the battle of Waterloo. Real or alternative version! And that would be a French Triumph on 17th of June, 1815, near Ligny. All what Wellington can do in that case it is just retreat to England! Bye for now!
@@davidconnellan6875 The French were win the battle of Wavre, but that was Grouchy mistake. Blucher outmaneuvered Grouchy forces and he come on the Waterloo battlefield in perfect time with 48 000 soldiers. And that was decisive moment of the battle. You watch the video on CZcams, Waterloo ( 1815 ) Animation, by Corvus. It is simple! Grouchy made a fatal error for the all French Army and the Emperor. Be saluted!
The Problem is not that Grouchy did not march to the guns. The problem was Grouchy didn't know if he was supposed to march to aid Napoleon.
This series, while it's been fantastic, ignores the one, resounding, consistent problem that Napoleon faced in 1815. A problem he himself created with one poor appointment - his selection of Soult as Chief of Staff.
Soult was a brilliant commander. A great tactical commander, and a reasonable strategic thinker. Soult's skills at organization and staff work were, less than impressive. Poorly written orders plagued the Grande Armee in 1815. Sure, Napoleons own cryptic behavior is partly to blame. Napoleon did not realize that he must be more direct and precise when giving orders then he usually was, since he doesn't have Berthier around anymore to transcribe his sometimes vague orders.
Soult must bear responsibility for these administrative failures as well. He was no where near as capable as Berthier in administration. Being Chief Of Staff also threw away Soults ability be given command of a Corps, Since Soult had to remain at HQ in his new position.
But there was one man, who I think could've filled his shoes as best as anyone could replace the irreplaceable Berthier.
I speak of course of one Louis Gabriel Suchet. He was absolutely the best administrator in the entire Grande Armee by 1815. His work in Aragon speaks for itself. He also served as an Excellent Chief of Staff to, Brune, Massena, And Joubert at one time or another. He had a proven track record at Administration in a way Soult did not.
And secondly, I think Quatre Bras was the big blunder, not Grouchy's lack of support.
Ney was one of Napoleons most aggressive commanders. He was also tactically superb. However, He lacked confidence in himself to operate independently of Napoleon, So Ney absolutely had to have crystal clear instructions to be the effective Marshal we all know and love. Vague and unconcise orders from Soult meant Ney didn't push hard against Wellington like he should have, and he also didn't pursue Wellington. Neys's failure here allowed Wellington the freedom to choose his ground, hence the campaign was already over before it began.
If the French had done things right, there wouldn't have been a battle at Waterloo. It would have been further north.
Very Poorly written orders, lackluster administration, Soult's inability to understand the very complex staff system Berthier Created, as well as his longstanding feud with Ney, cost Napoleon the campaign. Therefore, The Emperor Appointing Suchet as his Chief Of Staff instead of Soult, is the only way I can see to give the French any real chance in 1815.
Great Video Though! I enjoyed it!
Prussian divisions in 1815?
They had brigades which had approx. the size of a french division.
@@johannesmuther2599 I do know. But they were called brigades, not divisions.
@@Penco40not all of the players in our game are necessarily Napoleonics experts, mind you
@@Penco40 you're dead right mate...
Button counters gonna count. Rules lawyer too?
Seriously, without the Prussians or Grouchy, could Napoleon have defeated Wellington at Warterloo?
Yes but Wellington only gave battle because he knew the Prussians were coming.
Yes! 100% sure!
Seriously irritating how they kept intentionally mispronouncing Tipplelkirch's name. How do you get "Tippleskirgeon" out of that??? Come on guys, at least try. So, would the French continue to follow the Prussons to Waterloo? Would Grouchy harry Blücher the entire march?
Oh cmon, lighten up! We had fun with that name
Please stop placing the fancy border/framing at the top and bottom of the screen. Part of the attraction of miniatures war gaming, is the beauty of the miniatures and the battlefield tabletop. Your framing is hiding part of these items for no real benefit to your audience! Apart from this, I like these videos very much. 👍🏻
No.
The likes have it!
@@hangarflyingagreed