There are some empty hand techniques that are taught in Eskrima-Kali-Arnis which I thought were probably "borrowed" from Wing Chun. Now I'm thinking that it's the FMA way of adapting their sword techniques to empty hand.
Thanks so much for taking the time to make this! I really love this kind of contemplation on concepts. Watching you compare the movements brought to mind something I use when i share with others.. I always say you have a lot of hand shapes, but generally there is 2 "bone over bone" or "bone next to bone" in the fore arm. Seeing you use the sword helped me see that concept in a different light. Have a great day!
I'm not sure a gim/jian is the best analog for WC. First, while in jianfa we do keep the tip on the centerline, we do not keep the blade straight up and down. This presents too many opportunity of attack around the blade to cut our arm. Therefore, we hold the jian slightly at an angle to protect the arm that is holding it. Further, we do not 'stick' with the sword in jianfa. We do not roll into a 'bong sau' with our sword, instead we will deflect and attack with a pi-cut; the arm motion of which does resemble bong sau, sure, but unlike a bong sao which makes contact under the bridge then can either roll to the inside or outside bridge reference, a pi-cut is always going to be on one side of the bridge or the other. Are there similarities between jianfa and WC? Sure. We do seek to always take (and keep) the centerline. We use stepping techniques in combination with the sword to take the best line of attack while protecting ourselves from our opponent's counter-cuts. However because WC bases its techniques and application on pressure/force from the sticky bridge, and in jianfa we do not stick at all, that is about the most I could say that they share in common.
Brilliant! I've studied wing chun since 1972 and have studied fencing since 1976 - you are totally correct! I would agree with 17 x 17 - look at rapier and dagger.
Your ideas fit exactely to my own theory . Thanks for sharing. I think you should have a look on the techniques of sword and buckler, because they work with two weapons at the same time, they show trapping and some kind of chi sao too. Just Search in CZcams, you will find plenty of examples. Thanks for your Video "don't live on the brigde",too. That was right on the point and helped me to focus. Take care
Cause the human arm is just not long, plus it is used for people who are smaller,, Southern Chinese,,, which is where Wing Chun ( Foshan ) come from, therefore it is designed for a shorter Chinese against Northerners. Northern Chinese are usually taller, and Northern styles were more popular and they used Hard blocks and harder Kung fu and longer range king fu. So they adapted the sword into a short range style, ex. Bart Cham Dao.
That in a way remindes me of Leung Jan side body wing chun (Kulo Wing Chun) for longer range fighting. When they get closer they go back to "normal" wing chun. Like going from a longer sword to shorter knives.
I totally agree, because the body mechanics are inefficient for transferring momentum into a target for it to be a striking art; it has more in common with knife and stick fighting techniques then it does with striking arts. I was introduced to wing chun chuen, because I have friends who practice the art and wanted to spar and drill with me. I have a background in Goju Ryu, Isshin Ryu, Fencing, and Kali. What they were doing, sticky hands, reminded me more of kakie of Goju Ryu and Hubud Lubud of Kali. Also in the context that it was developed for rebels fighting against police and soldiers a punch is the wrong type of attack and is not historical; globally groups that did this such as the Sicarii, Assassins, Thugees, and the Yihetuan all used short swords, daggers, and garrotes for guerrilla warfare not empty hands.
Look at history of Chinese military and police. From what I've read they practiced arts such as Bajiquan, Xingyiquan, and Ying Jow Pai. On top of these arts they had body armor and work in groups of two or more. A wing chun punch generally has less force than a jab, because it uses the the triceps and front deltoid muscles to generate the force instead of using the quadriceps and gluteus. A simple experiment to see how much force is being transmitted in a strike would be to use a shotput and measure the distance it travels using certain punching technique, or using a cable & weight system to measure how much weight can be moved with specific input force. Also take into account the surface area of the striking area what part of the fist one is landing with, because that dictates how many pounds per square inches are are actually being transmitted. Simply how often are practitioners getting concussions, stunned, or knockout in wing chun practice, because a punch causes injury by blunt force trauma. I've never seen a wing chun practitioners use their whole body turning of the hips to generate power by torque. I've seen wing chun practitioners knock a person down, or backwards, but not injure a person unless they did a bil jee to an eye or an elbow from a side stance. When I'm stating efficiency I mean the goal or objective of a technique and the ability to achieve that goal. I just don't find much evidence of wing chun practitioners killing government officials or injuring people in fights.
That's completely wrong, starting with the idea you have about the mechanics. Arm strength is not the source of our punches' power, the core/hip is. This is why you see us do the turning punch exercise (or jyun ma cheung choi) the base for this being in cham kiu.
@@billmurray7676 I've not seen, read, or experience a wing chun practioner use the torque from their hip to punch. Turning and punching isn't the same as slinging a punch like a discus, or shotput.
cheung choi (punch) and jyun ma cheung choi are beginner first year exercises, and torque with movement is cham kiu level although at that point you are probably already in the refining stage, especially if you already learned elbow strikes. My school isn't exotic or anything, it's straight up authentic Ip Man HK lineage from the source, not even a WSL variation. It is a good school though, and I can tell you first hand there are some fake sifus out there. Maybe, as an outsider to the system, you shouldn't take youtube at face value ? I don't, on any subject.
Very interesting thesis. Your arguments are persuasive. Curious though, how is it that the Bart Chum Dao and the long pole are traditional Wing Chun weapons and the Jian is not? I hope to see more videos. They are both instructive and entertaining.
The Bart Cham Dao was copied from the Butterfly sword. Wing chun people only made it shorter and more streamlined so that it can be concealed. The Pole was borrowed from an other Martial Arts because during the time of the Rebellion, Wing Chun practitioners were a group of Opera Performers who lives on this Red Boat and they often steered and pushed the boat with a very long pole, so because they had this long pole all the time, they incorporated this long pole into Wing Chun.
I can only guess. Wing Chun is an anti traditional Martial Art. Used by rebels, groups that were against the governments, like the Red Boat Opera performers. Now if you were holding a long sword, like the Jian (straight sword ) you would be seen from far far away and you wouldn't be able to carry a Jian anywhere without being seen. There is no way you can conceal the Jian under your clothing. But the Bart Cham Dao can be hidden under your sleeves, boot, back belt etc. and the long pole looks perfectly normal while pushing the Red Boat along the shallow river bed. At that time, Wing Chun was practiced in secret so i guess the Jian would be too long and noticeable... This article tells how we obtained the pole form. wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki.php/WCP/WongWahBo
I also asked about your training pole in another posting. I'm curious about the pole: how it is mounted, its wood, ect. Your input is very much appreciated on that subject. I order Buick Yip BCD knives based on your review. I happen to have one of his dummies. I'm new to the knives. I appreciate your videos on the subject. Cheers! Thanks again.
No, i dont think so. Even the Bart Cham Dao has been a lost form. Even if you research Yuen kay san( One of Ip Man's Sifu), there are no( Bart Cham Dao Form) that were passed down. So there is no chance that a straight sword form would have survived if any. But i am pretty sure that our wing chun hands are direct translation from the Chinese straight Tai Chi sword/ as demonstrated in this video.
TOMMYBOY6969 i know the chan wah shun lineage do have a sword form, there os a school in Tawain teaching it. But for me it, it look more like a tai chi form added.
Yes, this Chan Wah shun's Bart Cham Dao form looks exactly like a simple (double broad sword form) with just a reverse grip section added. Other than that, there is no Wing Chun in his Dao form at all. I play with a double broad sword, and i recognize all those traditional Kung Fu moves . Or you can say that they are mostly Butterfly sword moves from hung gar forms...
Every single Kung fu story no matter the style,story of their origins are some of the most ridiculous stories ever told.A lot of these stories were outright lies made up by different instructors to make their style seem like some mysterious,abilities given by the gods,to fool students to enroll in their schools.
This is so obvious! I could tel with the stepping part but now that you put in perspective every move. NO DOUBT....Thanks!
Very good and very clear. Thanks
Incredible & Logical Presentation.
There are some empty hand techniques that are taught in Eskrima-Kali-Arnis which I thought were probably "borrowed" from Wing Chun. Now I'm thinking that it's the FMA way of adapting their sword techniques to empty hand.
Yeah, there are some techniques in Kali similar to Wing Chun...
Thanks so much for taking the time to make this! I really love this kind of contemplation on concepts. Watching you compare the movements brought to mind something I use when i share with others.. I always say you have a lot of hand shapes, but generally there is 2 "bone over bone" or "bone next to bone" in the fore arm. Seeing you use the sword helped me see that concept in a different light. Have a great day!
perfect. i will check this man for training. thanks
I just stumbled on this video and I must say, it is really well done. I'll agree with others who commented, very intelligent indeed.
nice. thanks.
Great video. Thanks a lot. I think you’re pointing out some links that nobody really talks about :) very helpfull
Awesome information.. You are genius
I've seen a demostration of Taichi Plum Blossom Praying Mantis Fist. It also has Chi Sao and Chi Geam.
I'm not sure a gim/jian is the best analog for WC. First, while in jianfa we do keep the tip on the centerline, we do not keep the blade straight up and down. This presents too many opportunity of attack around the blade to cut our arm. Therefore, we hold the jian slightly at an angle to protect the arm that is holding it.
Further, we do not 'stick' with the sword in jianfa. We do not roll into a 'bong sau' with our sword, instead we will deflect and attack with a pi-cut; the arm motion of which does resemble bong sau, sure, but unlike a bong sao which makes contact under the bridge then can either roll to the inside or outside bridge reference, a pi-cut is always going to be on one side of the bridge or the other.
Are there similarities between jianfa and WC? Sure. We do seek to always take (and keep) the centerline. We use stepping techniques in combination with the sword to take the best line of attack while protecting ourselves from our opponent's counter-cuts. However because WC bases its techniques and application on pressure/force from the sticky bridge, and in jianfa we do not stick at all, that is about the most I could say that they share in common.
This is very interesting
Brilliant! I've studied wing chun since 1972 and have studied fencing since 1976 - you are totally correct! I would agree with 17 x 17 - look at rapier and dagger.
Thank you.
Your ideas fit exactely to my own theory . Thanks for sharing. I think you should have a look on the techniques of sword and buckler, because they work with two weapons at the same time, they show trapping and some kind of chi sao too. Just Search in CZcams, you will find plenty of examples. Thanks for your Video "don't live on the brigde",too. That was right on the point and helped me to focus. Take care
I think you're right
Yang Style Taiji Quan has Tui Shuo and Hung Gar Tiger and Crane Fist has Kiu Sao.
Thank you Sifu
Very interesting and very plausible. But how do you relate this to your other videos on wing chun being a short range style?
Cause the human arm is just not long, plus it is used for people who are smaller,, Southern Chinese,,, which is where Wing Chun ( Foshan ) come from, therefore it is designed for a shorter Chinese against Northerners. Northern Chinese are usually taller, and Northern styles were more popular and they used Hard blocks and harder Kung fu and longer range king fu. So they adapted the sword into a short range style, ex. Bart Cham Dao.
That in a way remindes me of Leung Jan side body wing chun (Kulo Wing Chun) for longer range fighting. When they get closer they go back to "normal" wing chun.
Like going from a longer sword to shorter knives.
I totally agree, because the body mechanics are inefficient for transferring momentum into a target for it to be a striking art; it has more in common with knife and stick fighting techniques then it does with striking arts. I was introduced to wing chun chuen, because I have friends who practice the art and wanted to spar and drill with me. I have a background in Goju Ryu, Isshin Ryu, Fencing, and Kali. What they were doing, sticky hands, reminded me more of kakie of Goju Ryu and Hubud Lubud of Kali. Also in the context that it was developed for rebels fighting against police and soldiers a punch is the wrong type of attack and is not historical; globally groups that did this such as the Sicarii, Assassins, Thugees, and the Yihetuan all used short swords, daggers, and garrotes for guerrilla warfare not empty hands.
inefficient how?
Look at history of Chinese military and police. From what I've read they practiced arts such as Bajiquan, Xingyiquan, and Ying Jow Pai. On top of these arts they had body armor and work in groups of two or more. A wing chun punch generally has less force than a jab, because it uses the the triceps and front deltoid muscles to generate the force instead of using the quadriceps and gluteus. A simple experiment to see how much force is being transmitted in a strike would be to use a shotput and measure the distance it travels using certain punching technique, or using a cable & weight system to measure how much weight can be moved with specific input force. Also take into account the surface area of the striking area what part of the fist one is landing with, because that dictates how many pounds per square inches are are actually being transmitted. Simply how often are practitioners getting concussions, stunned, or knockout in wing chun practice, because a punch causes injury by blunt force trauma. I've never seen a wing chun practitioners use their whole body turning of the hips to generate power by torque. I've seen wing chun practitioners knock a person down, or backwards, but not injure a person unless they did a bil jee to an eye or an elbow from a side stance. When I'm stating efficiency I mean the goal or objective of a technique and the ability to achieve that goal. I just don't find much evidence of wing chun practitioners killing government officials or injuring people in fights.
That's completely wrong, starting with the idea you have about the mechanics.
Arm strength is not the source of our punches' power, the core/hip is. This is why you see us do the turning punch exercise (or jyun ma cheung choi) the base for this being in cham kiu.
@@billmurray7676 I've not seen, read, or experience a wing chun practioner use the torque from their hip to punch. Turning and punching isn't the same as slinging a punch like a discus, or shotput.
cheung choi (punch) and jyun ma cheung choi are beginner first year exercises, and torque with movement is cham kiu level although at that point you are probably already in the refining stage, especially if you already learned elbow strikes.
My school isn't exotic or anything, it's straight up authentic Ip Man HK lineage from the source, not even a WSL variation. It is a good school though, and I can tell you first hand there are some fake sifus out there. Maybe, as an outsider to the system, you shouldn't take youtube at face value ? I don't, on any subject.
What is the name of the sword style you demonstrate.
I would say, Tai Chi style of sword play.
Very interesting thesis. Your arguments are persuasive. Curious though, how is it that the Bart Chum Dao and the long pole are traditional Wing Chun weapons and the Jian is not? I hope to see more videos. They are both instructive and entertaining.
The Bart Cham Dao was copied from the Butterfly sword. Wing chun people only made it shorter and more streamlined so that it can be concealed. The Pole was borrowed from an other Martial Arts because during the time of the Rebellion, Wing Chun practitioners were a group of Opera Performers who lives on this Red Boat and they often steered and pushed the boat with a very long pole, so because they had this long pole all the time, they incorporated this long pole into Wing Chun.
Yes, thank you. And the straight sword? Given your thesis, why not the Jian?
I can only guess. Wing Chun is an anti traditional Martial Art. Used by rebels, groups that were against the governments, like the Red Boat Opera performers. Now if you were holding a long sword, like the Jian (straight sword ) you would be seen from far far away and you wouldn't be able to carry a Jian anywhere without being seen. There is no way you can conceal the Jian under your clothing. But the Bart Cham Dao can be hidden under your sleeves, boot, back belt etc. and the long pole looks perfectly normal while pushing the Red Boat along the shallow river bed. At that time, Wing Chun was practiced in secret so i guess the Jian would be too long and noticeable...
This article tells how we obtained the pole form.
wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki.php/WCP/WongWahBo
Most excellent, thanks.
I also asked about your training pole in another posting. I'm curious about the pole: how it is mounted, its wood, ect. Your input is very much appreciated on that subject. I order Buick Yip BCD knives based on your review. I happen to have one of his dummies. I'm new to the knives. I appreciate your videos on the subject. Cheers! Thanks again.
Do you think there might be a sword form that last lost through time in Wing Chun ?
No, i dont think so. Even the Bart Cham Dao has been a lost form. Even if you research Yuen kay san( One of Ip Man's Sifu), there are no( Bart Cham Dao Form) that were passed down. So there is no chance that a straight sword form would have survived if any. But i am pretty sure that our wing chun hands are direct translation from the Chinese straight Tai Chi sword/ as demonstrated in this video.
TOMMYBOY6969 i know the chan wah shun lineage do have a sword form, there os a school in Tawain teaching it. But for me it, it look more like a tai chi form added.
czcams.com/video/G304i7ZnX4M/video.html
Yes, this Chan Wah shun's Bart Cham Dao form looks exactly like a simple (double broad sword form) with just a reverse grip section added. Other than that, there is no Wing Chun in his Dao form at all. I play with a double broad sword, and i recognize all those traditional Kung Fu moves . Or you can say that they are mostly Butterfly sword moves from hung gar forms...
Every single Kung fu story no matter the style,story of their origins are some of the most ridiculous stories ever told.A lot of these stories were outright lies made up by different instructors to make their style seem like some mysterious,abilities given by the gods,to fool students to enroll in their schools.
Wing chun wasnt based on the Chinese sword, but the Japanese sword.... must look at the real chinese history and look up General Qi Jiguang