This conversation made my elders angry,but I couldn’t care. They had this mentality of verbally abusing my boyfriend telling him to pay lobola nothing is for free. Yet this is the man who found me suffering funded my business ideas. Because of him today I can say my life has more direction none of them could help me with anything not when I was still in school. Im pregnant they started wanting lobola I told them to back off if they still want me to be part of their family they should stop this lobola nonsense. And mostly of my cousin have babies out of wedlock they just looked at my man’s financial status and thought they could make money out of my boyfriend.
As a white guy, I feel it isn't my place to have too much of an opinion in this space. But I applaud the originality of your thinking. I believe there is a need for such conversations.
I've had this chain of thought for the longest of time. I've also come to realize that the majority of people can't grasp such. Keep fighting the good fight bro.
You have had this chain of thought simply because it favours men and you all fiend responsibility. If you don't want to pay lobola, then don't expect your wife to tend to your family and wear traditional attire when she visits your parents. Don't expect your wife to visit your family or be initiated into your family in any shape or form. Your wife will not be expected to visit your family EVER because no family relations were built with an exchange of gifts, she only needs to tend to you.....and even there it will only be where she wants to
@@gugulethubuthelezi127 I honestly don't know where to start with this. So your saying female's only do these things because of ilobola ? And not because they want to or because it's "culture". I'll stop here Gugu. Maybe one day we can debate this, thank you for your view though.
@@Dimasi2 Lobola is a signifier of creating relations between families. If the signifier is no longer adhered to then to what basis does the husband's family have to you as his wife. Within relationships everyone bears responsibilities, however men fiend their responsibilities yet don't think twice where it comes to their expectations of women. Men these days don't want to pay lobola and don't want the responsibility of being providers yet expect women to keep good relations with their families, take care of domestics and bear children for them. They are inflexible with their expectations, yet expect us to be flexible. Relationships are give and take - both parties should give. If we forgo one dimension of culture and tradition then we must forgo all of it. Men only want to forgo Lobola because it benefits them. If we forgo lobola then lets forgo ukukotiza and every other component of culture within the marriage structure. If you as a man aren't expected to do anything for me as a wife then you cant expect me to do anything for you as my husband. Laughably you ask me if we don't do these things from the goodness of our hearts.... do men do anything out of the goodness of their heart? or are males calculating in their moves and decisions, no man makes you his wife out of the goodness of his heart, you have been selected to further his interests and continue the lineage of his name....yet somehow we women are expected to do things simply from the goodness of our hearts? I think not.
@@gugulethubuthelezi127 I find ukukotiza just as outdated. If is a signifier, are you saying there can't be another signifiers? I.e keep the thought, change the symbolism.
My guy, these people are not ready for this message. Sheep need a shepherd for a reason. They will succumb to emotions instead of reason and logical thought process. Continue spreading the message and enlighten the nation.
Cultures, the world over, came up with different ways of men having to prove themselves worthy of the lady they want to marry. Whether men having to prove themselves worthy is justified (that's a separate debate). In some cultures it's actually the women that pay the man's family, but they key logic behind it was that people don't value what they get without sacrifice i.e. for free. Lobola isn't meant to be taken as a fee for transfer of ownership of a another human being but rather a token of appreciation and commitment. Weddings and dowries can be financially abusive and exploitive to whoever is paying but it's not inherently an African thing, it's a human thing. I'm personally not against it (Lobola) if it's within my means.
But the girl's family spent her entire life preparing her exactly for marriage/child rearing/running a household. They spend literally 15-20 years teaching her how to cook various meals, sow clothes, conflict resolution, customs etc etc So the girl getting married was a big deal and they were losing a lot of value in their own family. So in essence I get 20 cows for my daughter of value, and I go pay 20 cows for my son's wife who is gonna bring equal value that I lost when I married my daughter off. There was a lot of logic behind these things for the times. In today's world that's not practical. These girls will make noodles in the microwave for your kids but spend 1. 5 hours doing make up and hair daily
This hits home, feel like I'm being spoken to through this video. Black men are under a silent attack to just stop us from being financially free by our own people.
I love your logic brother. A lot of people will twist your words for their own agendas, but there is no denying the fact that there are serious contradictions in what is promoted in the name of culture for your betterment and/or your family, and what is actually going to help you and your family.
Black youth in South Africa is really under representation. However, I agree with you on some aspect of what people do "Conveniently", but the scrapping away cultural ways, it's a No man. Culture needs to be preserved and practiced by those who understand it not by the "convenient" doers.
Wow man. In principle everything you say is right. We no longer raise our children. We no longer teach our children. The worst part is we don't have families. We are still under British colony. To understand that the king of AbaThembu was arrested under Roman Dutch laws. I agree with you completely.
I agree with the quote you made from Dr umar Johnson. It is true we have to run twice as fast to catch up. You can not have nothing and then slow down thinking you will catch up
Danki Penuel power to the truth... You know after watching some of your videos I've taken a stand to say whether its cultural or religious but if it does not make me win I will not do it. let's all win brother keep it up
izintinga ziqala when sikala african culture against western standards,in rural areas ilobolo makes sense bt in cities it might not make sense due to how ppl liv
For me Truth is the correct interpretation of REALITY, and you have unpacked reality very well here my Brother. Those who are getting in their feelings do so because they are not engaging the rational part of their mind. I have always been Pan Afrikan/ Afrocentric, for the longest of time. Until I was in a relationship that messed me up so bad mentally because nothing made sense in terms of what was expected of me. And in such situations you can never do anything right because you operate based on the woman's whims, whatever she says is culture becomes culture, yet she remains a "liberated woman". That kinda thing can mess you up for real psychologically. I have been to hell my Brother lol that's why I don't even fear the Christian hell, I've seen some crazy stuff in this world. So this is a crucial conversation that I think needs to go mainstream, straight up. Brothers suffering out here, for real. And it's not worth it. There's so much nonsense and hypocrisy with ilobolo these days, it's a mess, and that's why we remain prisoners of these ideas that we don't really even understand.
I remember speaking on this matter years ago ..and some women almost ate me alive..but i stand by wat i believe..M NOT GETTING EXTORTED ..Other men may choose to pay for women..M not doing all that..this ain't back in the days
I really don't understand people that don't understand you my bro, I'm not known out there as a celebrity but i would really love to sit with somebody like you and talk about stuff' you make so much sense.
If we are confused now , we will definitely be confused ancestors and will be demanding confused things from our grandchildren. We have to get our Ish together. So sad that animals such as lions can get their Ish together but humans with supposedly better intellect, can’t.
I agree lobola should be scrapped. Very few women are virgins anyway by the time they marry, noone has "cow" money too. So many young black couples that are serious about each other can't marry cause the poor guy can't afford lobola! And how does one come to this lobola price? The uncles who aren't in the relationship! Let the two families meet, the couple must make their marriage intentions known and let both families get to know each other, give each other gifts if they want to "build a bond". It's an outdated concept.
If we remove ilobola.Can we remove Woman changing their Clans name to their Husbands Clans name after Marriage .Can we stop forcing Woman to take care of Inlaws.If we remove ilobola then we should allow Woman to stay by their Family Clan.
Our African culture is really letting us down that's why so many black people never get married because of all this Lobona n hlawulo u are 100% correct
Hi there absolutely love your chats, you just head the nail on the head everytime. Something I don’t understand…. If traditional people don’t like the western way of life why follow it, why mix the two. Why run down the white culture . I mean why does the president have a white pilot, why are there white security staff, why send your little ones to white schools and so it goes on. Well the most logical reason is that the traditionalists won’t be looked after and cared for by their own people … like you said. Look at the govt hospitals, schools being burned and vandalised and a hundred other things. Why do they want to stop maths and science at schools… the children will be pushed back in their future just the same as the disgusting previous regime which we did not support anyhow, too young . I don’t understand. It’s either follow your culture or follow another culture or just mix the cultures but don’t intermingle the cultures to suit. I think that traditionalists in some cases will be more moral . I really don’t know how these poor men can afford lobola , that money can be used to start their married life . Sometimes our white traditions aren’t too bad but who are we to enforce them on others if they follow voluntarily, maybe some Zulu traditions if kept true could be better fir some whites by way of bringing up kids etc. It’s hard for any child to adhere to traditional when with non traditional people, not good or bad . Very difficult fir all I guess
I fully support your proposition if it is not as one sided as it sounds. If you say men shouldn't have to pay lobola or damages then you should also absolve women of any such wifely expectations. A mans wife should not have to be initiated into his family, she should not have to visit her in laws or wear traditional attire when she does. She should never have to see them if she does not wish to, there shouldn't be an expectation that she should have to clean and cook for her father-in-law and mother-in-law, she should never be expected to visit during December holidays or bring the grand children over for the family to see. If there is no cultural exchange to signify the union then the wife should not be expected to observe any cultural traditions or be expected to fit any of the traditional wife duties/expectations either. I have a feeling you are saying what you say simply because it favours men....did you actually take a minute to think of the implications of scrapping such practices? You cant have your cake and eat it too. No lobola and damages = no expectations from the husbands family. Scrapping lobola means I don't marry into your family, I simply marry YOU - therefore don't expect me to have any connection or involve myself in any sense where it comes to your family. That's fair!
I agree with you. And we see it in society today already. Women keep their surnames or have double-barrel surnames. They also hire nannies and maids, and go wherever they want over the holidays. Women today are empowered and have agency. So you're unfamiliar wrong that this is about what favours men. Modern couples have to help each other where possible, and unite with each other's families where possible.
@@godpenuel Agreed, as said I only support your preposition if it is two sided and from your response I see that it is, however please be aware that not all women experience what you are speaking on. Some men still expect their partners to play into traditional roles whereas they fiend such responsibility. I find the scales are usually tilted within many relationship dynamics. That is what I am speaking against. With me its tit-for-tat. We are no longer of the notion that women have to suffer in the name of love or be disenfranchised in any shape or form. No lobola means no family relations or any traditional expectations of me. If we abandon one cultural observation, lets abandon all. That's where I leave it.
The spiritual implications of not doing certain things in our culture are there, maybe not for you but they may resurface in the generations after you. Your kids or even your grandchildren might be stuck in their lives and have to fix your decisions not to observe certain practices. What I think we should be doing is finding ways to get back to the proper practices required for certain things and discuss how to eliminate the vulture who become opportunists when these practices have to be observed. Isintu simile, futhi abanye bethu sezifikile kulezinkinga. Izono zabazali ziwela ezinganeni..
Ancestors will be angry 😳🙄👀😱 Have a conversation with Siya from Umsamo institute. Some of us don't want amabhadi I'm glad I don't have a child I don't have to deal this issue 😳🙄😱
Here’s my view, especially on the basis of culture…..what exactly are we now paying lobola for? There were reasons why it was paid, virginity being 1; purity and so forth so in this day and age what exactly are we paying for? Ladies please don’t take offence but please help make us understand
your points are valid brother, maybe you should try to engage King MisuZulu to enlightning him, this can be a breakthrough for Zulu people. invites the king to your show
Lobolo was for practical reasons. 400 years ago if there was not enough resources in a village men were gathered and other villages looted for cattle, women and land. If you were a strong Zulu and won many wars the king awarded you with cattle and women. Men killed one another on mass. The ratio between men and women forced poligame. Lobolo were a form of genes preservation
mina ngithi nina bafana basemadolobheni noma ningalikhokhanga , thina base mafarmu ngoba sisenazo inkomo singaqhubeka silikhokhe , ngoba emafarmu u cant just bring umuntu nje egcekeni kini ungakhiphanga lutho. so to summarise we are spliting urban boyz oneside (yekani) , thina ofarm-boy oneside (siqhubeke) until we run out of cows, bcz i also feel for u guys having to pay cows nibe ningakhoni ukufuya from Suburbs
This thing of paying damages who's traditions is it. I thought to hlahola was for the child to get the father surname. I 100% agree with child support by both familys but I do not agree paying a girl just because you have child with her
Funny How we forgotten, that abakhongi would be at the dawn be at the gate, bememeza izithakazelo, naming what they come with to the brides house, that is to count the cows if that's what they come with, calling them by coulors, what's even interesting is that would be the wedding day as well. that means the couple will be leaving as soon as everything is done
First in South Africa they hadn't done any transaction between ou culture and modern laws.. modern laws only agrees some practice of our culture when it's suits them...
I agree lobola must fall. People like saying things have changed but are selective as to what must change. Inter gendor relations have changed all together. Men paid lobola for virgins, women today walk into marriages with children by other men. Some couples start of their new marriages off in debt. And the divorce rate is sky high so its a bad deal for whoever has to pay it. Lobola must fall!
Bro I love how you look at things, let's take ukulobola for instance, I would fully support if they were saying " ok for us to hand our daughter over to you, you need to have so much in your account " (no parent would want to send their child to a man who won't be able to provide for her) that very same amount is kept for you and your wife ( not given to her parents)
I understand your stance, but it pre-supposes that the man must take care of her coz she probably can't take care of herself? Ie. Woman is deemed inferior.
Very important, sensative and interesting topic Pen. I think a lot of meaning is lost in translation, and I Lobolo is one of the most misinterpreted values of some African cultures. One, I Lobolo is not something to be paid. Once people say 'paying' I Lobolo, just know they have totally lost the point. Do I think I Lobolo as practiced in the 21st Century is fair, not at all, I think.it has been widely hijacked by the materialistic interest,.which was something very far from.it in its original nature. Unfortunately again, we can't engage and educate each other properly using this grossly confined comment section. In summary, I Lobolo was never about enriching one family by the other, it was a part of traditional customs or rituals whose validity was anchored in the intent of establishing a strong relationship between the two families who will now be bound through these two love birds who are committed to each other. Every culture has their own traditions and customs as part of this process for some cultures towardsa marriage, this was just a way form for some African cultures. It does not need to be demonized. Secondly, I find that most critics of I Lobolo speak so from a 21st Century, post colonial deprived position. Remember that Africans were self sufficient in their own right, the pastoral tribes such as the Ngunis kept cattle and their rich culture being closely knit together supported each other, quoting the value of ukusisela, meaning if my neighbor does not have cattle, those who do would lend him theirs to bear their own so they can establish their own kraal. There was no greed as what was brought by modernity values which promote individualism. Theophelus Shepstone (Port Shepstone being named after) played a fundamental role in distorting the original Lobolo of the Zulu nation because he held a powerful position at the time as a translator between the European imperialists and Zulu Kingdom. That is why if we keep relying on the 'white scripts' for.our own history then our identity will forever be thwarted. That is because we will continue to see ourselves from the colonizers view. I wish we could engage more in person on this as I have not said enough. Cheers.
And what about the pressure on the woman who is 'paid' for? If the relationship does not work out after ilobola has been paid. Its not just two people calling it quits? There are wider repercussions I'm assuming of calling it quits. Does her family have to pay back the money? Is she shamed? Surely paying ilobola is statement of serious commitment to her, to work so hard to show she is worth it. It could be considered chivalrous. Truthfully I have 3 sons none will being paying for their future wives, Truthfully I will encourage them to find an equally educated woman to them or future wise they might have issues.
Dude, you're making a lot of sense but surely a lot of us we don't want to hear or discuss lento uyithethayo kodwa it really needs us the youth to start challenging ezizinto haay khona
@@godpenuel I still recall how I challenged the amount I was charged for inhlawulo 😂😂 my uncle told them he cannot agree to that amount so he gave me a phone call as I was at work, told me that they saying intlawulo yabo bathi zinkomo eziy5 and inkomo inye yiR3.5K ebuza will I be able to afford that ndathi ndicela uthetha nabo and I asked them intsusa yayo yonke lento yentlawulo isuka phi? Yayisenziwa njani kudala? Bakhamisa and I had my way with them
I stand for correction Xhosa and the kings of that time went out of their birth homes to build their empires according to their wishes. They ran their houses the way they wanted to some extent. I guess my question is. Don't I suppose to leave my life the way I want. Whats out dated put it on the side use what relevant and if possible create my own customs, principles and values? I am not going to be a prison of my society or play identity politics just because I have to fit in. Or just follow your truth, your heart where it tells you to go? Isn't the greatest teacher of men his own experience? I do not want to imply all african customs and principles are not relevant of-cause not. Like the concept of ubuntu it seems to me we lack of it and it will be relevant forever. In General @Penuel The Black Pen, you provoking and helping a community to follow the truth that seats dormant in their hearts, that says leave your life and be broken from your own mistakes. And be a prisoner of none to your best ability. I could be completely wrong on what I said or didn't do my home work or a toxic view. Please do say something if you feel incline to I have a heart to take it and most of all learn. What grows is destined to change.
@penuel wouldn't this mean the nail in the coffin for our cultures? Does this represent a dawn of a new culture/era?? And what rules does this new era abide by? Capitalism?? What are your thoughts?
It will fall for your daughters and households only, you are no longer Zulu vele. Thina we are still proudly Zulu, why involve yourself in the matters of Zulu(native) people? ALSO PLEASE NOT: even with white people, as soon as you are engaged with a ring and the relationship fails, you can sue for the lifestyle you were expecting to have.
@@thabangmdlalose1527 I also don't understand why we are being force feed his beliefs! He has a right to his opinion... but we are not stopping 1 of the very things that makes us Zulu. He is no longer Zulu, he can do as he please, no need to bash what works for the vast majority of the people. His daughters wont get ilobolo... that should be the only conclusion.
@@nonkolo_faith he do research about Zulu culture by reading books that was written by whites. Thina we don't do research about US, it is within us, deep rooted in our souls, when we want to know something we ask elders, and we speak to our ancestors for guidance. if he is no longer Zulu he really need to us alone
I dont agree with everything you said. The problem starts when we as indlu emnyama start thinking that our culture and customs are barbaric or not serving us. Yes somewhere somehow ilobolo and inhlawulo became somesort of ransom. Maybe we need to find out why certain things are done and where they done, e.g ilobolo wasnt only just cows infact you could lobolo with crops or what ever your family was rich in. So instead of scraping it let go back to our true roots. Ubona silahlekile kanjena yingoba silahle isiko nezintu ezenza thina sibe indlu emnyama.
When people don't have a valuable contribution to a conversation they have comments like " lol who hurt you"! This is another section where we are lacking as black people which is "emotional intelligence".
It's hard to get rid of iLobolo bcz traditional practitioners get money through it. They say into zakho zimile bcz yr parents did not finish iLobolo etc etc. Scam, it's holding us back. E.g the security guard and cleaner can't have a family regardless of how much they love each other. Why bcz kunale barrier. Okubuhlungu ingane zikhulela komalume which causes instability kwi life yengane instead of one big happy family with 2 parents.
%I wonder where were you born, where you grew up, how much you know about being Zulu, how rooted are in Zulu culture. To make this short, we practise ilobolo we never going to stop, and believe me we still do it with live stock meaning izinkomo and it will always make sense to us. if you don't believe in it just apply what what you believe in to your family and leave Zulu cultures alone. Actually 90% of what you said in this video crap
'I will never understand' sounds super complacent, a mind that is not willing to hear out and listen and learn - terrible attitude,. Looking down on other people's cultures. Also we don't need other cultures to understand our way of life. Yours is humble yourself and learn if you are genuinely interested to learn, but upu can't be judgemental. Lobolo is not something you pay, that's a gross misconception
This guy is bullshitting so that he can read your comments and educate himself on the topic. He does this with all of his videos where he attacks long-standing cultural norms and practices. He wants to get how people are thinking and internalize that information and make himself smarter.... basically his youtube channel is a massive data-collection program for himself. I can see right through him.
What stupid comments? Everyone is entitled to voice out. Penuel is expressing his thought out here for people to respond. Obviously people reason differently. Penuel knows this and it would be boring to read to everyone agreeing with him. There must be different opinions of course. This is how we learn and grow ... So chill. We are not going to agree with Penuel ALL THE TIME. We are different. We have different experiences. Our brains work... Hhaybo!!! Chill
@@godpenuel okay Penuel 😅🤣😂🙊...but you will still read them. How will you know they are stupid if you didn't read them? 🤧🙊🤷. You can choose to ignore them ...
This conversation made my elders angry,but I couldn’t care. They had this mentality of verbally abusing my boyfriend telling him to pay lobola nothing is for free. Yet this is the man who found me suffering funded my business ideas. Because of him today I can say my life has more direction none of them could help me with anything not when I was still in school. Im pregnant they started wanting lobola I told them to back off if they still want me to be part of their family they should stop this lobola nonsense.
And mostly of my cousin have babies out of wedlock they just looked at my man’s financial status and thought they could make money out of my boyfriend.
As a white guy, I feel it isn't my place to have too much of an opinion in this space. But I applaud the originality of your thinking. I believe there is a need for such conversations.
You shouldnt be here to begin with. (No offence)
What are you doing in black spaces?
I've had this chain of thought for the longest of time. I've also come to realize that the majority of people can't grasp such. Keep fighting the good fight bro.
You have had this chain of thought simply because it favours men and you all fiend responsibility. If you don't want to pay lobola, then don't expect your wife to tend to your family and wear traditional attire when she visits your parents. Don't expect your wife to visit your family or be initiated into your family in any shape or form. Your wife will not be expected to visit your family EVER because no family relations were built with an exchange of gifts, she only needs to tend to you.....and even there it will only be where she wants to
@@gugulethubuthelezi127 I honestly don't know where to start with this. So your saying female's only do these things because of ilobola ? And not because they want to or because it's "culture". I'll stop here Gugu. Maybe one day we can debate this, thank you for your view though.
@@Dimasi2 Lobola is a signifier of creating relations between families. If the signifier is no longer adhered to then to what basis does the husband's family have to you as his wife. Within relationships everyone bears responsibilities, however men fiend their responsibilities yet don't think twice where it comes to their expectations of women. Men these days don't want to pay lobola and don't want the responsibility of being providers yet expect women to keep good relations with their families, take care of domestics and bear children for them. They are inflexible with their expectations, yet expect us to be flexible. Relationships are give and take - both parties should give.
If we forgo one dimension of culture and tradition then we must forgo all of it. Men only want to forgo Lobola because it benefits them. If we forgo lobola then lets forgo ukukotiza and every other component of culture within the marriage structure. If you as a man aren't expected to do anything for me as a wife then you cant expect me to do anything for you as my husband. Laughably you ask me if we don't do these things from the goodness of our hearts.... do men do anything out of the goodness of their heart? or are males calculating in their moves and decisions, no man makes you his wife out of the goodness of his heart, you have been selected to further his interests and continue the lineage of his name....yet somehow we women are expected to do things simply from the goodness of our hearts? I think not.
@@gugulethubuthelezi127 I find ukukotiza just as outdated. If is a signifier, are you saying there can't be another signifiers? I.e keep the thought, change the symbolism.
@@gugulethubuthelezi127 lobola for umakoti who becomes everybody else's, some get her for free??????????????????
'You don't look out there for God, something in the sky,you look in you.' I agree with you completely, God Peneul. Regards, God Sifiso.
We're not ready for this lobola truth.
My guy, these people are not ready for this message. Sheep need a shepherd for a reason. They will succumb to emotions instead of reason and logical thought process. Continue spreading the message and enlighten the nation.
We're finding our tribe, slowly but surely.
Cultures, the world over, came up with different ways of men having to prove themselves worthy of the lady they want to marry. Whether men having to prove themselves worthy is justified (that's a separate debate). In some cultures it's actually the women that pay the man's family, but they key logic behind it was that people don't value what they get without sacrifice i.e. for free.
Lobola isn't meant to be taken as a fee for transfer of ownership of a another human being but rather a token of appreciation and commitment. Weddings and dowries can be financially abusive and exploitive to whoever is paying but it's not inherently an African thing, it's a human thing.
I'm personally not against it (Lobola) if it's within my means.
You have made all the sense in the world. im with you
Well stated🙏
But the girl's family spent her entire life preparing her exactly for marriage/child rearing/running a household.
They spend literally 15-20 years teaching her how to cook various meals, sow clothes, conflict resolution, customs etc etc
So the girl getting married was a big deal and they were losing a lot of value in their own family. So in essence I get 20 cows for my daughter of value, and I go pay 20 cows for my son's wife who is gonna bring equal value that I lost when I married my daughter off.
There was a lot of logic behind these things for the times.
In today's world that's not practical. These girls will make noodles in the microwave for your kids but spend 1. 5 hours doing make up and hair daily
@@blaquenguni9249 So Woman were trained to be slaves to Man and his Family-Inlaws.Could Woman also reject to be selled out to strangers.
This hits home, feel like I'm being spoken to through this video.
Black men are under a silent attack to just stop us from being financially free by our own people.
I love your logic brother. A lot of people will twist your words for their own agendas, but there is no denying the fact that there are serious contradictions in what is promoted in the name of culture for your betterment and/or your family, and what is actually going to help you and your family.
Black youth in South Africa is really under representation. However, I agree with you on some aspect of what people do "Conveniently", but the scrapping away cultural ways, it's a No man. Culture needs to be preserved and practiced by those who understand it not by the "convenient" doers.
Wow man. In principle everything you say is right. We no longer raise our children. We no longer teach our children. The worst part is we don't have families. We are still under British colony. To understand that the king of AbaThembu was arrested under Roman Dutch laws. I agree with you completely.
I agree with the quote you made from Dr umar Johnson. It is true we have to run twice as fast to catch up. You can not have nothing and then slow down thinking you will catch up
Very thought provoking conversation I must say
Danki Penuel power to the truth... You know after watching some of your videos I've taken a stand to say whether its cultural or religious but if it does not make me win I will not do it. let's all win brother keep it up
Penuelism 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
izintinga ziqala when sikala african culture against western standards,in rural areas ilobolo makes sense bt in cities it might not make sense due to how ppl liv
Even in rural area it doesn't make sense.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I L O V E Y O U!!!!!!!!!!! 😭😂
For me Truth is the correct interpretation of REALITY, and you have unpacked reality very well here my Brother. Those who are getting in their feelings do so because they are not engaging the rational part of their mind. I have always been Pan Afrikan/ Afrocentric, for the longest of time. Until I was in a relationship that messed me up so bad mentally because nothing made sense in terms of what was expected of me. And in such situations you can never do anything right because you operate based on the woman's whims, whatever she says is culture becomes culture, yet she remains a "liberated woman". That kinda thing can mess you up for real psychologically. I have been to hell my Brother lol that's why I don't even fear the Christian hell, I've seen some crazy stuff in this world.
So this is a crucial conversation that I think needs to go mainstream, straight up. Brothers suffering out here, for real. And it's not worth it. There's so much nonsense and hypocrisy with ilobolo these days, it's a mess, and that's why we remain prisoners of these ideas that we don't really even understand.
I remember speaking on this matter years ago ..and some women almost ate me alive..but i stand by wat i believe..M NOT GETTING EXTORTED ..Other men may choose to pay for women..M not doing all that..this ain't back in the days
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 stand firm. You're not alone. There are many of us fighting outdated and oppressive prescriptions.
I really don't understand people that don't understand you my bro, I'm not known out there as a celebrity but i would really love to sit with somebody like you and talk about stuff' you make so much sense.
👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿Congratulations on carrying a conversation that should initiate by MisuZulu.
Thank you 🙏🏾🙏🏾
If we are confused now , we will definitely be confused ancestors and will be demanding confused things from our grandchildren.
We have to get our Ish together.
So sad that animals such as lions can get their Ish together but humans with supposedly better intellect, can’t.
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
I agree lobola should be scrapped. Very few women are virgins anyway by the time they marry, noone has "cow" money too. So many young black couples that are serious about each other can't marry cause the poor guy can't afford lobola! And how does one come to this lobola price? The uncles who aren't in the relationship! Let the two families meet, the couple must make their marriage intentions known and let both families get to know each other, give each other gifts if they want to "build a bond".
It's an outdated concept.
If we remove ilobola.Can we remove Woman changing their Clans name to their Husbands Clans name after Marriage .Can we stop forcing Woman to take care of Inlaws.If we remove ilobola then we should allow Woman to stay by their Family Clan.
Facts! Brother this is very important!
I agree brother, I'm totally against Lobola... wish our nation especially black can get over it.
Penuel for President 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
it hurts me to say my mother needed to hear this , sokumele sithwale imthwalo. siyabonga ngceku
Blessings 🙏🏽
We need more of this, thank you Pen
" economic oppression " we are suffering when will develop while paying high lobola prices
From God to a God 🤝🏾
thank you Penuel . this is enlightening
Ungene kakhulu ke ngk kondlebe zikhanya ilanga, kambe uyaphambuka kwisintu. Andikayimameli le video kodwa isihloko sayo siyalahlekisa nangona ndinomdla ukuba uzokuthini. Lobolo nentlawulo li siko nesithethe kokulandelelana.
Our African culture is really letting us down that's why so many black people never get married because of all this Lobona n hlawulo u are 100% correct
truth hurts..good talk..
Hard truths hard knock life
Hi there absolutely love your chats, you just head the nail on the head everytime. Something I don’t understand…. If traditional people don’t like the western way of life why follow it, why mix the two. Why run down the white culture . I mean why does the president have a white pilot, why are there white security staff, why send your little ones to white schools and so it goes on. Well the most logical reason is that the traditionalists won’t be looked after and cared for by their own people … like you said. Look at the govt hospitals, schools being burned and vandalised and a hundred other things. Why do they want to stop maths and science at schools… the children will be pushed back in their future just the same as the
disgusting previous regime which we did not support anyhow, too young . I don’t understand. It’s either follow your culture or follow another culture or just mix the cultures but don’t intermingle the cultures to suit. I think that traditionalists in some cases will be more moral . I really don’t know how these poor men can afford lobola , that money can be used to start their married life . Sometimes our white traditions aren’t too bad but who are we to enforce them on others if they follow voluntarily, maybe some Zulu traditions if kept true could be better fir some whites by way of bringing up kids etc. It’s hard for any child to adhere to traditional when with non traditional people, not good or bad . Very difficult fir all I guess
I fully support your proposition if it is not as one sided as it sounds. If you say men shouldn't have to pay lobola or damages then you should also absolve women of any such wifely expectations. A mans wife should not have to be initiated into his family, she should not have to visit her in laws or wear traditional attire when she does. She should never have to see them if she does not wish to, there shouldn't be an expectation that she should have to clean and cook for her father-in-law and mother-in-law, she should never be expected to visit during December holidays or bring the grand children over for the family to see. If there is no cultural exchange to signify the union then the wife should not be expected to observe any cultural traditions or be expected to fit any of the traditional wife duties/expectations either. I have a feeling you are saying what you say simply because it favours men....did you actually take a minute to think of the implications of scrapping such practices? You cant have your cake and eat it too. No lobola and damages = no expectations from the husbands family. Scrapping lobola means I don't marry into your family, I simply marry YOU - therefore don't expect me to have any connection or involve myself in any sense where it comes to your family. That's fair!
I agree with you. And we see it in society today already. Women keep their surnames or have double-barrel surnames.
They also hire nannies and maids, and go wherever they want over the holidays. Women today are empowered and have agency.
So you're unfamiliar wrong that this is about what favours men. Modern couples have to help each other where possible, and unite with each other's families where possible.
@@godpenuel Agreed, as said I only support your preposition if it is two sided and from your response I see that it is, however please be aware that not all women experience what you are speaking on. Some men still expect their partners to play into traditional roles whereas they fiend such responsibility. I find the scales are usually tilted within many relationship dynamics. That is what I am speaking against. With me its tit-for-tat. We are no longer of the notion that women have to suffer in the name of love or be disenfranchised in any shape or form. No lobola means no family relations or any traditional expectations of me. If we abandon one cultural observation, lets abandon all. That's where I leave it.
@@gugulethubuthelezi127you neal it.And Children should belong to their Mothers Clan.
Emshadweni ayikho i one size fits all mfo, ngoba indaba yelobola yeza nabelungu benu laba enibathandayo mandulo kwakuhlanganwa kukhulunwe kunabantu abadala yingako izinto zenu zibanzima ngoba akusahlalwa phansi kukhulunwe njengomndeni.
The spiritual implications of not doing certain things in our culture are there, maybe not for you but they may resurface in the generations after you. Your kids or even your grandchildren might be stuck in their lives and have to fix your decisions not to observe certain practices.
What I think we should be doing is finding ways to get back to the proper practices required for certain things and discuss how to eliminate the vulture who become opportunists when these practices have to be observed.
Isintu simile, futhi abanye bethu sezifikile kulezinkinga. Izono zabazali ziwela ezinganeni..
You mean the culture that's only benefits Man
Ancestors will be angry 😳🙄👀😱
Have a conversation with Siya from Umsamo institute. Some of us don't want amabhadi I'm glad I don't have a child I don't have to deal this issue 😳🙄😱
Yei,that's a group of people I dont want to anger myself aswell lol.
You are so open minded….✊🏽
Black Pen .... Khuluma nabo mina ngiyezwa🧠✊🏾
Here’s my view, especially on the basis of culture…..what exactly are we now paying lobola for? There were reasons why it was paid, virginity being 1; purity and so forth so in this day and age what exactly are we paying for? Ladies please don’t take offence but please help make us understand
I'm torn I want to believe in it for the sake of culture but at the same time il rather get married with such nonsense
your points are valid brother, maybe you should try to engage King MisuZulu to enlightning him, this can be a breakthrough for Zulu people. invites the king to your show
121% agree
Lobolo was for practical reasons. 400 years ago if there was not enough resources in a village men were gathered and other villages looted for cattle, women and land. If you were a strong Zulu and won many wars the king awarded you with cattle and women. Men killed one another on mass. The ratio between men and women forced poligame. Lobolo were a form of genes preservation
This is a load of BS
@@siyandachonco 😂
You can't discuss African issues in a foreign language and expect justifiable results
mina ngithi nina bafana basemadolobheni noma ningalikhokhanga , thina base mafarmu ngoba sisenazo inkomo singaqhubeka silikhokhe , ngoba emafarmu u cant just bring umuntu nje egcekeni kini ungakhiphanga lutho. so to summarise we are spliting urban boyz oneside (yekani) , thina ofarm-boy oneside (siqhubeke) until we run out of cows, bcz i also feel for u guys having to pay cows nibe ningakhoni ukufuya from Suburbs
Mfwethu, okuningi okushoyo iqiniso. Lasingavumelani khona ukuthi asiphele isintu mina ngicabanga ukuthi asilungiswe isintu. Isibonelo nje... 1 izinkomo eziyi 11 zabekwa abelungu
2 umembeso ungumkhuba
Ziningi izinto ezashintsha ngokwethu.
This thing of paying damages who's traditions is it. I thought to hlahola was for the child to get the father surname. I 100% agree with child support by both familys but I do not agree paying a girl just because you have child with her
Thank you 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Funny How we forgotten, that abakhongi would be at the dawn be at the gate, bememeza izithakazelo, naming what they come with to the brides house, that is to count the cows if that's what they come with, calling them by coulors, what's even interesting is that would be the wedding day as well. that means the couple will be leaving as soon as everything is done
Lobola it’s a scam my brother,we need to get a refund if the marriage don’t work 😂😂😂
First in South Africa they hadn't done any transaction between ou culture and modern laws.. modern laws only agrees some practice of our culture when it's suits them...
Let's just say culture is no more and leave like African Americans... because when we speak about culture it go beyond that..
I personally don't support lobolo shinanigans 🤧🤧🤧
Mr Penuel can we meet up and make a podcast regarding this topic please... 🙏🏽
I agree lobola must fall. People like saying things have changed but are selective as to what must change. Inter gendor relations have changed all together. Men paid lobola for virgins, women today walk into marriages with children by other men. Some couples start of their new marriages off in debt. And the divorce rate is sky high so its a bad deal for whoever has to pay it. Lobola must fall!
Bro I love how you look at things, let's take ukulobola for instance, I would fully support if they were saying " ok for us to hand our daughter over to you, you need to have so much in your account " (no parent would want to send their child to a man who won't be able to provide for her) that very same amount is kept for you and your wife ( not given to her parents)
I understand your stance, but it pre-supposes that the man must take care of her coz she probably can't take care of herself? Ie. Woman is deemed inferior.
@@godpenuel I feel you, and they preach equality louder than a baby's cry so I get your point👊
No no you are using your brain, you are not supposed to do that.
The problem starts when you mix culture and modern laws...
🙏🙏
Very important, sensative and interesting topic Pen. I think a lot of meaning is lost in translation, and I Lobolo is one of the most misinterpreted values of some African cultures. One, I Lobolo is not something to be paid. Once people say 'paying' I Lobolo, just know they have totally lost the point. Do I think I Lobolo as practiced in the 21st Century is fair, not at all, I think.it has been widely hijacked by the materialistic interest,.which was something very far from.it in its original nature. Unfortunately again, we can't engage and educate each other properly using this grossly confined comment section. In summary, I Lobolo was never about enriching one family by the other, it was a part of traditional customs or rituals whose validity was anchored in the intent of establishing a strong relationship between the two families who will now be bound through these two love birds who are committed to each other. Every culture has their own traditions and customs as part of this process for some cultures towardsa marriage, this was just a way form for some African cultures. It does not need to be demonized. Secondly, I find that most critics of I Lobolo speak so from a 21st Century, post colonial deprived position. Remember that Africans were self sufficient in their own right, the pastoral tribes such as the Ngunis kept cattle and their rich culture being closely knit together supported each other, quoting the value of ukusisela, meaning if my neighbor does not have cattle, those who do would lend him theirs to bear their own so they can establish their own kraal. There was no greed as what was brought by modernity values which promote individualism. Theophelus Shepstone (Port Shepstone being named after) played a fundamental role in distorting the original Lobolo of the Zulu nation because he held a powerful position at the time as a translator between the European imperialists and Zulu Kingdom. That is why if we keep relying on the 'white scripts' for.our own history then our identity will forever be thwarted. That is because we will continue to see ourselves from the colonizers view. I wish we could engage more in person on this as I have not said enough. Cheers.
Seems like the customs are used selectively
And what about the pressure on the woman who is 'paid' for? If the relationship does not work out after ilobola has been paid. Its not just two people calling it quits? There are wider repercussions I'm assuming of calling it quits. Does her family have to pay back the money? Is she shamed? Surely paying ilobola is statement of serious commitment to her, to work so hard to show she is worth it. It could be considered chivalrous. Truthfully I have 3 sons none will being paying for their future wives, Truthfully I will encourage them to find an equally educated woman to them or future wise they might have issues.
@Penuel what times do lives? i wanna engage you leader.
Dude, you're making a lot of sense but surely a lot of us we don't want to hear or discuss lento uyithethayo kodwa it really needs us the youth to start challenging ezizinto haay khona
Starts with you and I, in our own families.
@@godpenuel I still recall how I challenged the amount I was charged for inhlawulo 😂😂 my uncle told them he cannot agree to that amount so he gave me a phone call as I was at work, told me that they saying intlawulo yabo bathi zinkomo eziy5 and inkomo inye yiR3.5K ebuza will I be able to afford that ndathi ndicela uthetha nabo and I asked them intsusa yayo yonke lento yentlawulo isuka phi? Yayisenziwa njani kudala? Bakhamisa and I had my way with them
@@DingiNqaba Hahahaha... bittersweet story. Black ppl have too many problems and most are self-inflicted.
No lies detected here ...
I stand for correction Xhosa and the kings of that time went out of their birth homes to build their empires according to their wishes.
They ran their houses the way they wanted to some extent. I guess my question is. Don't I suppose to leave my life the way I want. Whats out dated put it on the side use what relevant and if possible create my own customs, principles and values? I am not going to be a prison of my society or play identity politics just because I have to fit in. Or just follow your truth, your heart where it tells you to go? Isn't the greatest teacher of men his own experience?
I do not want to imply all african customs and principles are not relevant of-cause not. Like the concept of ubuntu it seems to me we lack of it and it will be relevant forever.
In General @Penuel The Black Pen, you provoking and helping a community to follow the truth that seats dormant in their hearts, that says leave your life and be broken from your own mistakes. And be a prisoner of none to your best ability.
I could be completely wrong on what I said or didn't do my home work or a toxic view. Please do say something if you feel incline to I have a heart to take it and most of all learn.
What grows is destined to change.
@penuel wouldn't this mean the nail in the coffin for our cultures? Does this represent a dawn of a new culture/era?? And what rules does this new era abide by? Capitalism??
What are your thoughts?
When you think you are smart or some sort of "deep thinker" but you are not, this is the result. Udakiwe wena
Please give us another view of it brother and why you disagree
This guy is smarter than you, smarter than your parents and relatives combined.
How does one book you for lunch?
info@godpenuel.com
Imagine paying money whilst other dude(s) smashed for free its the biggest scam
why
It will fall for your daughters and households only, you are no longer Zulu vele. Thina we are still proudly Zulu, why involve yourself in the matters of Zulu(native) people? ALSO PLEASE NOT: even with white people, as soon as you are engaged with a ring and the relationship fails, you can sue for the lifestyle you were expecting to have.
I think Panuel is confused, he completely doesn't know what he is talking about
@@thabangmdlalose1527 I also don't understand why we are being force feed his beliefs! He has a right to his opinion... but we are not stopping 1 of the very things that makes us Zulu. He is no longer Zulu, he can do as he please, no need to bash what works for the vast majority of the people. His daughters wont get ilobolo... that should be the only conclusion.
@@nonkolo_faith he do research about Zulu culture by reading books that was written by whites. Thina we don't do research about US, it is within us, deep rooted in our souls, when we want to know something we ask elders, and we speak to our ancestors for guidance. if he is no longer Zulu he really need to us alone
Do you consider yourself your own God, or everyone's?
My own and those that choose me to be their God.
I dont agree with everything you said.
The problem starts when we as indlu emnyama start thinking that our culture and customs are barbaric or not serving us.
Yes somewhere somehow ilobolo and inhlawulo became somesort of ransom.
Maybe we need to find out why certain things are done and where they done, e.g ilobolo wasnt only just cows infact you could lobolo with crops or what ever your family was rich in.
So instead of scraping it let go back to our true roots.
Ubona silahlekile kanjena yingoba silahle isiko nezintu ezenza thina sibe indlu emnyama.
ilobolo alikho KwaZulu, lafika nabelungu. Umkhulu washo kanjalo kimi
So wait we were not supposed to be using Surnames ?? 🤔
When people don't have a valuable contribution to a conversation they have comments like " lol who hurt you"! This is another section where we are lacking as black people which is "emotional intelligence".
It's hard to get rid of iLobolo bcz traditional practitioners get money through it. They say into zakho zimile bcz yr parents did not finish iLobolo etc etc. Scam, it's holding us back. E.g the security guard and cleaner can't have a family regardless of how much they love each other. Why bcz kunale barrier. Okubuhlungu ingane zikhulela komalume which causes instability kwi life yengane instead of one big happy family with 2 parents.
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Haibi mfo. Njani manje?
😂😂😂 he was scammed R30k.
%I wonder where were you born, where you grew up, how much you know about being Zulu, how rooted are in Zulu culture. To make this short, we practise ilobolo we never going to stop, and believe me we still do it with live stock meaning izinkomo and it will always make sense to us. if you don't believe in it just apply what what you believe in to your family and leave Zulu cultures alone. Actually 90% of what you said in this video crap
I don't agree with some of the things you are stating.
I will never understand the concept of iLobolo... Why must I pay someone else money to marry the person I love? Don't get it
It made sense at a certain time when the dynamics for men and women, and money were different. Today it's idiotic.
'I will never understand' sounds super complacent, a mind that is not willing to hear out and listen and learn - terrible attitude,. Looking down on other people's cultures. Also we don't need other cultures to understand our way of life. Yours is humble yourself and learn if you are genuinely interested to learn, but upu can't be judgemental. Lobolo is not something you pay, that's a gross misconception
This guy is bullshitting so that he can read your comments and educate himself on the topic.
He does this with all of his videos where he attacks long-standing cultural norms and practices.
He wants to get how people are thinking and internalize that information and make himself smarter....
basically his youtube channel is a massive data-collection program for himself.
I can see right through him.
You keep talking this common sense and you'll be silenced. Don't you worry about your safety and the safety of the people around you?
Bro don't bother reading stupid comments.
What stupid comments? Everyone is entitled to voice out. Penuel is expressing his thought out here for people to respond. Obviously people reason differently. Penuel knows this and it would be boring to read to everyone agreeing with him. There must be different opinions of course. This is how we learn and grow ... So chill. We are not going to agree with Penuel ALL THE TIME. We are different. We have different experiences. Our brains work... Hhaybo!!! Chill
@@Coco-kw3iv He didn't say I mustn't read disagreeing comments... he said I mustn't read the stupid ones.
I agree with him.
@@godpenuel okay Penuel 😅🤣😂🙊...but you will still read them. How will you know they are stupid if you didn't read them? 🤧🙊🤷. You can choose to ignore them ...
@@Coco-kw3iv That's exactly what he's suggesting... that I ignore them in future.
@@godpenuel ok... My bad...🙏