Where is Tears of the Kingdom on the Zelda Timeline? (Zelda Theory)
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- čas přidán 28. 05. 2023
- When does Tears of the Kingdom take place? Today, I have another Legend of Zelda theory for you for the new game: Tears of the Kingdom. I will be theorizing and discussing the placement of TOTK's memories (Dragon Tears) on the Zelda Timeline. We discuss Ganondorf (Rehydrated & Mummy form), Queen Sonia, King Rauru, Goddess Hylia, Skyloft and the Sky Islands, and other pieces of Zelda Lore.
#tearsofthekingdom #zelda #totk
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Not a bad thought. However, I'd like to mention that the Gerudo Desert in the era before Skyward Sword was actually a verdant grassland. It appears to still be a desert in the age of legend from Tears of the Kingdom, which is a point of counterevidence.
It appears to look exactly how it does in BotW and TotK which is a major point of counterevidence. Why would the map look exactly how it does in Botw and TotK all the way back before or after Skyward Sword?
@Bastien Lafleur tbf it was probably for time's sake-- I think they meant to imply that it was different but clearly they did still miss some research
Wait, but TOTK never shows the old world outside of the limited scope of what was around Zelda, which was all central Hyrule.
@@JeanneFeisont you can see some of the desert in the cutscene with the moldugas.
I can explain this, if their world is anyway similar to earth then its just a natural phase that their planet went under, the Sahara desert was also once a lush green place but now is sandy and seemingly lifeless apart from very hardy organisms but it will become green again when the climate changes enough.
The main issue with this is the gerudo existing. That and the fact that Ganondorf is a reincarnation of Demise, so this really can't take place before Skyward Sword.
Sonia is not royal by birth. She was a priestess, presumably of Hylia. The Zelda name convention was only legalised in the downfall timeline, before that we can assume it was just a nice tradition. It's definitely possible that Skyward Sword happened and the name 'Zelda' faded from common memory, with THIS Zelda re-popularising it. It's also a fact that the language was different, at least in writing, so names aren't going to be identical
He's not a reincarnation of Demise. Well, not exactly. He's the manifestation of Demises curse. Well, that's Ganandorfs base, along with being the gerudo of myth...plus, a vessel for the triforce of power.
Ganondorf is a perfect storm of complete frickery
@@johnnyscifi my personal theory around ganondorf is that since its stated that the gerudo folk only gives birth to a male every couple centuries there might be the case that "ganondorf" is just the word in the gerudo language for a male native gerudo which would explain the returning name while disconnecting ganondorf from demise to a degree so the ganondorf in totk might just a minion of demise
Well I have another Theory that makes even more sense and explains everything.
So what if Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom are taking place after Skyward Sword…but in the Timeline where Link killed Demise in the Past.
So we know the original Timeline came from the outcome that Demise was crushed by the Statue of the Goddess by the Triforce thanks to Links wish. And because Link and Zelda traveled back to their future and took the Rest Demise with them in the Master Sword, the curse still happened to the Blood of the Goddess and the Spirit of the Hero.
But the events of Ganondorf, the Divine Beasts and Calamity Ganon still could happen because in the Past where Demise was destroyed he still spoke the Curse on Link and Zelda and still would probably also reincarnate in this Timeline along with Ganondorf. So because BotW and ToTK taking place 10.000+ years in the future..the events of the timeline still could happen but in a another way because things changed and so the Rito could coexist alongside the Zora usw and because we don’t know what exactly happened in the past…it is possible that characters like Ruto could have a big role in the Past.
And Ganondorf could come back time and time again and later being sealed under Hyrule in this timeline.
I think you know what I mean xD
So I believe that fourth timeline is indeed the timeline we’re Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom taking place.
Also yeah in the fourth timeline it changed a little bit because Zelda travelled back in time which ended up like a time paradox because thanks to Zelda‘s interfering Ganondorf could get the Stone and was sealed over 10.000 + or even 100.000 + years under Hyrule and because of the paradox there are like two Ganondorf’s. The one who was defeated by Rauru before he becomes the Demon King and was probably reincarnated and revived time and time again which becomes later Calamity Ganon out of pure Hatred and Malice and the Demon King Ganondorf who was sealed under Hyrule with the Stone and the Menace. Also thanks to that the World changed a bit but the Characters still remember the fight against the Calamity because of the Paradox causing marching both events.
its honestly far more likely that Demise is the first 'Calamity Ganon' from the corpse actually, given all we are shown in SS and TotK.
They also reference ruto in botw. Mipha mentions her on a tablet and gets hope for her relationship with link because Ruto also fell for a hylian... link. There is a destroyed castle in the depths. That is likely hyrule castle from OoT.
Nah I think it happens so far into the future after an apocalyptic event like the great flood or something similar that leads Rauru to believe that he really did found Hyrule since all of its history was wiped away. Almost like a Spirit Tracks situation but WAYYYYYY farther in the future that nobody remembers what came before, and all the events of the old games are mere legends. The biggest piece of evidence for me is the armor that you get after completing all the shrines, which resembles the legendary hero that fought the first calamity 10,000 years ago. It almost looks like a cross of a Zonai and a Hylian, and I think it is implied to be Rauru and Sonia’s son, meaning that these events took place just over 10,000 years before Totk, right before the first calamity, which we know is at the end of the timeline.
I think about the same too
A simpler explanation is: they just rebooted the franchise😂 they will reference old titles, but they don't wanna be subject to those stories, so they're just gonna tell the ones they want😂
@@sethfeldpausch4337 this explanation is basically a reboot. It’s so far in the future that other games can be referenced but dont hold much meaning to the new stories
Sorry but that anciant hero is a gerudo-zonai indeed, you just have to look closer to the desing
@@ShineOnDarkness I know there’s red hair but that would be impossible unless Gannon and Sonia had a little secret
I also think it's important just how much the game pushes that ganondorf is THE demon king, and that he specifically is sealed underground, exactly where the demon king comes from in the beginning of skyward sword. I think demise is just another form of Calamity Ganon(similar naming convention too) and is just his rage leaking out. And if you wanna get crazier, and much less likelier, being told about the master sword by rauru is what inspired demise to try to get his own. Also, literally just thought of this, but this ganondorf exists without zelda and link, which means the curse of demise is not in effect yet
that last part is very interesting...
Well Rauru mentions that a male gerudo is only born every one hundred years, which I believe is caused by the curse itself
Maybe the names change because they get passed down in different ways
SORRY I MEANT PASSED
@@onyx2787 the curse doesn't just effect gerudo tho so
If I recall correctly, in botw in botw it is mentioned that no male Gerudo has been born for thousands of years even though they are said to be born every 100, I see this as an implication that it is because Ganondorf was still alive but sealed away. This would mean no 2 Ganondorfs could be alive at the same time, and therefore ancient past totk would be placed at the end of the timeline before the first calamity, as the sealed Ganondorf is the cause of the calamity.
Yep, that would be the case if we only factored in Skyward Sword and not the entire timeline
This right here, I just wrote a comment breaking this down. If no male Gerudo existed for thousands of years, during the time Ganondorf was sealed and living, then TOTK's present needs to occur before OOT, so a new Ganondorf could be born.
This either means the present of TOTK occurs before Skyward Sword, or after it, but before OoT. But ruins in the game exist from both Skyward Sword (The Sealed Temple and the Springs) and OoT (the old Temple of Time and Castle Town), meaning TOTK's present occurs after OoT. But if that's the case, Ganondorf couldn't exist in OoT.
So the only way the Gerudo's maleless history can be true with what we see in the ruins of BOTW/TOTK, the past of TOTK needs to occur after OoT, so that the living but sealed TOTK Ganondorf doesn't prevent OoT Ganondorf from being born.
Wasn’t there that one gerudo that gives you the disguise armor?
@@vizualdrieamz Vilia is a Hylian disguised as a Gerudo, like Link
@@Crape711 ohhhh
I think that it takes place at the end of the timeline, with the founding of a new hyrule, similar to spirit tracks
For this to be true the rito need to disappear for thousands of years and then randomly show up again in windwaker. Also, there is a tablet in totk that says that hyrule castle was built to protect ganondorfs seal, so therefore he could only have been sealed down there as long as this hyrule castle has existed.
I really like this and I want this to be the case. one small issue there is a Zonai door behind the goddess statue of the forgotten temple which means they had to have built the door after the goddess statue descended back to the surface
also I don't think ganon would have existed before demise. That would be like if Zelda existed before hylea.
@@mimijones7294 this is my head canon for this. TotK Ganondorf is his own entity, completely. Demise, seeing Hyrule in a weakened state after the attack from Ganondorf, decides to attack with his own forces. He is defeated, and chooses the next Ganondorf to bear his spirit, knowing how powerful the Gerudo can be when imbued with dark magic. That next Ganondorf becomes the one from the mainline games. At the end of the Timeline, the original Ganondorf awakens, and the events of TotK occur.
@@mikemead7417 That is how I’m thinking it works out, but again the zonai door must have came into existence after the goddess statue descended so when does not make the events of the ancient past in tears of the kingdom have to occur after skyward sword?
Then again the statute has been shown to have been toppled before so a bunch of people could’ve just moved it or Hylia could’ve moved it herself just like she does with the demon statue
@@mimijones7294 but... she came back through time so that she DID exist before Hylia became the first Zelda.
my own personal theory is that totk takes place at the very end of the timeline, INCLUDING the time travel stuff zelda goes through, for one simple reason: in the sections where we see zelda in the past, the sages include six people - her, mineru, a goron sage, a gerudo sage, and a *rito and zora sage*. there is no possible way for any part of totk to take place any earlier in the timeline than at the very end, as the rito are an evolved species of the zora, and the two only coexist when the timelines converge. and as far as we know, the convergence of the timelines takes place eons after four swords + spirit tracks + adventure of link, which means the time travel section, as far back in the past as it is, HAS to take place after the convergence.
so, like. botw/totk take place EONNSSSS ahead in the timeline. im pretty sure the devs just wanted a soft reboot LMFAO
The problem is Ganondolf cant be/have malice embodyment powers before Demise places that curse at the end of Skyward Sword. I think it is more likely that after Skyward Sword The Kingdom of Hyrule wasn't established. Hyrule is still Hyrule just that the Kingdom of it still doesn't exist. Sonia could still be named Sonia because before Sonia met Zelda there is no reason to be naming every princess Zelda. Maybe it was a common name but not the only name. However, after TOTK Zelda travels back in time it would make sense if it became a tradition, maybe even a law, to name every princess Zelda because doing so would ensure a future where a princess named Zelda would travel back in time and meet Sonia. Since Sonia knew Zelda was related so the only way to ensure Zelda is named Zelda is to name every princess after this point Zelda.
Another problem. If Ganondolf is sealed there can’t be another Ganondolf. You can argue that there can still be Ganons because the pig beast form was actually all like Calamity Ganon this whole time but this means there can’t be a game with Ganondolf in it between TOTK past and TOTK present.
Funny thing that. Some choice lines of Demise's are drastically different in the original Japanese. One huge thing removed from the English translation is both Demise and Ghirahim talking about the demon tribe as a whole. Demise talks about conquering the lands for the demon tribe, not himself. He doesn't necessarily curse Link and Zelda with fighting a reincarnation of HIM, but rather an endless cycle of fighting the whole demon tribe's vengeful hatred.
I don't think Demise himself is the end all, be all, big bad of the demons. I think Malice is a collective force of all demonkind (blins, keese, lizalfos, etc), and it just tends to coalesce into a single being like Demise, Ganon, Malladus, Vaati, etc.
Well I have another Theory that makes even more sense and explains everything.
So what if Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom are taking place after Skyward Sword…but in the Timeline where Link killed Demise in the Past.
So we know the original Timeline came from the outcome that Demise was crushed by the Statue of the Goddess by the Triforce thanks to Links wish. And because Link and Zelda traveled back to their future and took the Rest Demise with them in the Master Sword, the curse still happened to the Blood of the Goddess and the Spirit of the Hero.
But the events of Ganondorf, the Divine Beasts and Calamity Ganon still could happen because in the Past where Demise was destroyed he still spoke the Curse on Link and Zelda and still would probably also reincarnate in this Timeline along with Ganondorf. So because BotW and ToTK taking place 10.000+ years in the future..the events of the timeline still could happen but in a another way because things changed and so the Rito could coexist alongside the Zora usw and because we don’t know what exactly happened in the past…it is possible that characters like Ruto could have a big role in the Past.
And Ganondorf could come back time and time again and later being sealed under Hyrule in this timeline.
I think you know what I mean xD
So I believe that fourth timeline is indeed the timeline we’re Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom taking place.
Also yeah in the fourth timeline it changed a little bit because Zelda travelled back in time which ended up like a time paradox because thanks to Zelda‘s interfering Ganondorf could get the Stone and was sealed over 10.000 + or even 100.000 + years under Hyrule and because of the paradox there are like two Ganondorf’s. The one who was defeated by Rauru before he becomes the Demon King and was probably reincarnated and revived time and time again which becomes later Calamity Ganon out of pure Hatred and Malice and the Demon King Ganondorf who was sealed under Hyrule with the Stone and the Menace. Also thanks to that the World changed a bit but the Characters still remember the fight against the Calamity because of the Paradox causing marching both events.
Okay here's my theory (WARNING could be spoilery):
After some time, after any of the existing timelines, the Kingdom of Hyrule crumbled and then there was probably a time where no Kingdom existed, looking at how the Hylians in Raurus time look pretty old fashioned and tribal it seems they havent been in a rich and advanced Kingdom for a while when Rauru founds "new" Hyrule. Somewhere in this time frame the Zonai descent from the sky, where they probably have lived for as long as the Zelda games went on we just never saw them, and joined the Hylians as allies bringing with them their technologies. Then Ganondorf is reborn into the world because of the still existing Demise's curse, hungers for power and tries to take over the young Kingdom. He doesnt succeed, then tries to steal the secret stone, becomes the Demon King and is then sealed by Rauru.
Then Zelda, who got teleported through time itself from the current time, turns herself into a dragon to heal the master sword over the next like 15.000 years and the 4 sages lift up almost all of the Zonai structures into the sky and vanish with them and their technology.
After that the Kingdom thrives until many years later some of Ganondorfs imprisoned bodies malice found a way to break free and turned into an evil ghost of hate, Calamity Ganon. To counter him the Shiekah tribe built der own technologies, the Guardians and Devine Beasts, and together with probably a new version of Link and Zelda, they are able to defeat and seal Ganon away. Knowing that he will probably return they write a prophecy, warning their descendants about him.
Then for some reason the Shiekah tribe almost dies out and with them their machines get lost to the ages until 10.000 years later they are found again right before Ganon awakes. Ganon takes over the Guardians and the Devine Beasts and kills the Champions operating them. The current version of Link is fataly wounded and only saved by Zelda, who the tries to seal Ganon on her own.
100 years later Link awakes fully healed, helps to regain the Devine Beasts and, together with their help finally vanquishes Calamity Ganon, saving Zelda.
In this time between the big events all of the Shiekah technologies somehow dissappear. Maybe they crumbled with their duty fulfilled or maybe they were taken apart by the survivors of the calamity.
A few years later a weird gloom, almost reminiscened of malice, comes out of many caves in Hyrule but most prevalent under Hyrule Castle. Link and Zelda go check on it, find the Ganondorfs corpse right in the moment Raurus seal breaks. Ganondorf uses his full might, hurting Link badly, to lift up Hyrule Castle and for some reason, probably Raurus ghost's doing, all of the Zonai islands return closer to the ground, some of them even crashing. During this event Zelda gets teleported to the distant past.
Link then finds dragon Zelda, takes back the now healed Master Sword and shows some of his old pals their new dutys and they become the new 4 sages. Together with them...
Weeeeell I actually havent completely finished TotK so I have no Idea how it ends but you get the point. 😅
One of the reason I think it cant play before the other games is that I think the Gerudo havent had a King in thousands of years. In BotW it seemed that it was completely normal that Queens lead the Gerudo and not the "born only every 100 years" male king. This could mean that, because Ganondorf technically is still alive, no new male Gerudo has been born since then and that is why the Queens are so normal in the current time. Also goddess hylia isnt even mentioned once in the Rauru time and, with the exception of a small Triforce tattoo on Sonias arm, you could think that the whole Hylian Religion, including the goddess, doesnt really exist anymore (funnily enough the Hylian Religion seems to have returned somewhere between Raurus time and the time where Calamity Ganon first appeared but dont ask me how) which also speaks for it playing way after the old Zelda games and making it unlikely to play right before Demise arrives. Hell they dont even realise that its the almighty Triforce slumbering in Zelda and just call it "light power"...
Finally the timeline clesrly says that the Ganondorf we know AS Ganondorf was first born in OoT so way after the prologue of SS. I know this could just be retconned but it still stands.
The Sheika Tribe dosen’t die out it got banished by the king of Hyrule which causes the split between the Yiga and the Sheika
@@sebiezulueta Ah good to know.
@@erikfaru9780 One question: Where is the “hero”?? If you are right then the hero had also been reincarnated but no one even mentions him. Rauru seems genuinely interested in the concept of a hero which implies that until this point there wasn’t one.
@@ginnywibbelc8647 A good question. But I think even between the older games there were large periods of time where no hero was alive so a long period of time without a hero isnt that new. And about Rauru not knowing about a hero: in more than half of the other Zelda games it seems that no one knows that the "spirit of courage" or simply hero exists even if they are chronologically after a game with one of the big and famous heroes. And if we assume that the Kingdom of Hyrule, and with it all the memories of the ancient heroes, crumbled then it makes sense that Rauru has no clue of a hero that is supposed to appear.
What about the twinrova that's shown in the game? If they are actually the twins then it can't take place after oot
My main issue is that TOTK has so many hints and elements of the old games- And uses NONE of them. This makes me think that BOTW and TOTK are so far into the future that the old magic is mostly gone and forgotten (hence no triforce, no Fi, no Twili, nothing.) Ganondorf is merely a name that has passed on to every Male Gerudo King, and the one we see truly is the first in his lineage. Items of incredible legend and power like Majora’s Mask are just… Relics of their former selves.
I also assume Fi isn’t conscious inside the Master Sword any longer because it has been so long, similar to Zelda being a dragon for so long that her mind basically went to sleep til the dragonification was reversed. So thst kinda explains the lack of Fi, but still.
Fi is more active in this and botw than any other game apart from SS though and she speaks in a way that Zelda can clearly understand. Obviously logistically that's because Fi didn't exist until 2011 but it still needs to be accounted for
I think one thing to consider is that Nintendo directly confirmed that the Paella (I think they're called) from Skyward Sword would evolve into the Zora. So if your proposed timeline is correct, that would mean we have Zora who evolved into Paella who evolved back into Zora.
along with the Rito, who are evolved Zora, existing as races alongside the Zora in the timeline of Rauru and Sonia.
None of it is airtight because Nintendo isn't interested in making their stories fit perfectly with each other. The "every game is a 'legend' of Zelda" theory might be boring or even frustrating, but it's the most accurate, imo.
@@matthewmartinbooksbymatthe7193 Too be fair, Zora and Rito can coexist. Zoras exist not just in Hyrule, so its entirley possible that just one group of Zora evolved into Rito, maybe there yoused too be two Zora tribes, one in Hebra, one in Zoras domain. Hebra got colder and the Zora evolved into the Rito, ore Hyrules Zora became the Rito and then later a diffrent tribe of Zora etablished Zoras domain.
@@neptuneplaneptune3367The thing is, Rito only came along because Hyrule was flooded by saltwater all the way in WW, so its impossible for Rito and Zora to exist.
@@mrpcakes216 Except we get hints in the game itself that Hyrule was flooded once. So its not out of the question that MOST of Hyrule got flooded, perhabs the Hebra region, the local Zora evolved into Rito, then the draught set in that made the water resind again, and then Hebra became the way it is today, and either a brand new set of Zora colonized the area, ore just a few Zora had evolved too begin with. Its also possible the Rito came too Hyrule from a entire diffrent area, and who knows what happend outside of Hyrule?
@@neptuneplaneptune3367 well we know they can’t be from outside of Hyrule cause they literally originated from Hyrule and while the flood is not completely out of question it’s way too much speculation. Also where would the rito be during skyward sword, minish cap, Oot and the countless other games after totk?
This theory makes sense. Memories predate SS and the actual game where you're running around as Link takes place at the end of (a merge of) all 3 timelines and ofc after BotW. It makes sense as to why other races rallied behind Hylia, who likely came down to protect her people after Ganondorf's attack. Hylia, along with the sages, rose the land into the sky. All the sky island and shrine stuff is in place FOR link. so much is set up FOR link. it's like the sheikah shrines. Zelda informed Rauru & Sonia about the future and link, and as stated by the ceremony cutscene in botw, she mentions key words like time, twilight, etc, so it's likely she's knowledgeable on Skyward Sword's events and the land being raised. She informs the sages of this idea, as she knows Hylia will eventually raise the land, so the sages take part in it as well at the same time. Where those other islands are in skyward sword??? no idea! but it's zelda lol there will be some dumb magical explanation. regardless, it's all raised, zelda's plan works, the islands exist, TP link visits something like them down the line, and at some point the timelines merge. what's left of the kingdom on the surface remains or is destroyed. The depths are unexplained, but they could certainly just exist and the Zonai took advantage of being down there. It explains the light roots pinpointing Zonai shrine locations. time has definitely taken its toll on the sky.
however
botw makes it clear that 10,000 years ago a hero stopped calamity ganon with a young woman's sealing power.
when you complete all the shrines, you get an armor set meant to depict what the old hero looked like in that mural and legend. it's a zonai. rauru and mineru are the last 2 known zonai and the master sword wasn't even created yet according to this theory.
calamity ganon is, if i recall, comes from underground, and is likely the malice seeping out of dehydrated ganondorf's frozen body. it's his hatred and evil in a spirit form, since he can't move. this explains why he "gave up on reincarnation" in botw to make dark beast ganon. it's not reincarnation of demise, but reincarnation of just another calamity. the calamity is destroyed for good, what remains of ganondorf's evil seeps out, gloom appears, totk proper happens.
that would mean the calamity would have to be pre-SS and after rauru's sacrifice, then doesn't come back until botw's events. however, this doesn't make any sense. that would mean there's only ever been TWO calamities. the one with the ancient unknown zonai hero and the sheikah tech, and the one in botw.
maybe this remaining zonai had secrets to zonai tech and the sheikah adapted it? it would explain why the sheikah tech was buried underground, likely with old zonai tech?
it's confusing.
fantastic theory, but now I’m more confused on the ancient hero thing. i don't think any timeline placement theory could make any sense of this old hero seen in the murals, so it's not on you
I like the idea of the memories taking place after the first kingdom of Hyrule fell.
Yep, or this is just another breach on the timeline post Skyward Sword. The fact it has multiple references for other games just shows that history is destined to repeat itself more or less. It's a cyclical history after all, such is the curse of Zelda universe.
It can still happen before Skyward Sword.
There is no mention of the Triforce, the Golden Goddesses, the Master Sword is not known, and Ganondorf exist, also Skyward Sword locations and architecture are there in BOTW and ToTK, so we know it's the same Hyrule as Skyward Sword.
I personally feel that ToTK Ganondorf is the original Demon King who initiates a revolution in ushering a new world order of Demons to Hyrule.
Demons predate Ganondorf, and exist even before time, as with Staldra from Skyward Sword, being a Demon before time itself. My theory is that Demons are primordial beings that predate Hyrule's creation, and the Demon Realm is outerspace.
We see a sneak peek of this Demon Realm in Spirit Tracks, and it looks identical to Outerspace.
The "curse" of the Demon tribe just means Demons will always appear because they are natural to the order of the world. Demons play a role in the natural order, and Ganondorf felt Rauru was breaking that order in sealing away the very thing that creates the balance between light and darkness by only having light as the dominant.
Demise is a "Calamity Ganon" built up by Demon King Ganondorf's body. He was released from a fissure underground. This means Demise comes from The Depths, where Ganondorf is located.
As far as Ghirahim goes? It is very possible that he is a technology made from Dark Magic ie Gloom and possible evil technology harvested by either the Gerudos, the Sheikahs, or the Zonais (that are hidden to do evil).
I've already expressed in a previous comment of how the Goddess Sword resembles Zonai Technology, and how not only the color scheme, but the pattern scheme is very similar.
It is possible that Fi was created by Mineru to be of assistance to Rauru's and Sonia's possible offspring, who I suspect is Hylia, the Goddess of Light and Time.
Or, that Hylia created Fi using Mineru's assistance in spirit form to create this A.I. to assist the Chosen Hero that she heard from Zelda of ToTK who informed Mineru and her people of Link, the Chosen Knight. So maybe Hylia followed suit to that legend of her Chosen Knight, Link, based off of what Zelda said about him.
To be honest, it makes more sense for ToTK Backstory to be before Skyward Sword.
My personal headcanon is that Demise is the first iteration of what would one day be called Calamity Ganon. It's the concentration of power leaking from Ganondorf right at the height of his power, so it's more effective than that later versions, which would be every Ganon we see in the other games.
I belive in the "new timeline theory" right after link wishes to kill demise with the triforce a new timeline stablishes (and the timeline we know is the one they created in the past in the final battle, where the humans dont go down to the Surface, becoming the zonai, and the humans in the surface form the tribes sonia comes from...
So basically, BOTW is the final of the new time line, and tears of the kingdom explores what would be the "ocarina of time" events happening in the new timeline
I came across this theory yesterday, and I'm a fan of it.
@@TheDigitalWatcher same, though I came to the conclusion myself. It's much more solid than anything relating it to the main timeline
@@xenocross6597 Every game is the "main" timeline, including those. Zelda already established that time travel or different events DO create multiple parallel worlds.
Every death in a game can be interpreted as an new possible breach in "history". Zelda history is doomed to repeat an endless cycle and this is all about, we as players write the actual lore and new histories.
It's an very existentialist franchise, and this is what matters after all. The narrative is important for the gameplay to exist, not the opposite.
@@daniloberserk Yes, but it's not on the timeline that's in Hyrule Historia is what I mean by "main timeline"
Here's an interesting thought.
Maybe Ganondorf is a name given to all Gerudo kings, like that's the main tradition or something of that sort.
Much like the Zelda tradition, and that's why there are 2 Ganondorfs, 2 Gerudo kings.
We don't exactly see many of them, because well, the one in Ocarina of Time refuses to die.
I'm pretty sure this is the case. The Ganon in Four Swords Adventure is the OoT Ganon's spirit taking over an entirely different Gerudo who is poetically named Ganondorf.
So the other ganon, demise a eternity being like in sonic only way to truly kill them in killing them past present and future?
That would mean this is either the second or third ganondorf-- probably third.
I'm pretty sure the names are just symbolic in Zelda universe. In a sense that they're only there so the players don't get confused by characters that represents the same roles or archetypes. Since why you can rename your "name" in some games. They don't really mean anything.
It's stupid to think that every "Link" has Link as their actual name, the same can be said for the majority of the characters on the game.
Another note to make?
The Goddess Sword looks like Zonaite Tech!
The shape, color, and design asthetic looks remarkably similar to Zonai Technology.
I like to believe that Demise is DK Ganondorf's evil and hatred, removed and reborn from Ganondorf as a pure Demon King. With all the similarities of DK Ganondorf and Demise designs it all feels very deliberate. Most people assume that Ganondorf is taking the appearance of Demise, but I like to think that it may have been the reverse, with the connection of Demise's scar and DK Ganondorfs secret stone.
This could still have it that Demise existed before Ganondorf, but he would have been more nebulous and shapeless, but due to Ganondorfs actions, Demise channeled itself fully into Ganondorf, turning him into the Demon King.
The Zonai are considered to be gods, Hylia could literally be Ruaru and Sonia's child. Another thing is that the Shiekah could be established here, as the tear symbol they are famous for, could be in reference to Zelda becoming a Dragon. Another interesting wrinkle to tears of the kingdom's timeline placement, is that if Zelda from any of the 3 timelines, goes back into time before OoT, and lives through to Tears of the kingdom, she creates a 4th timeline/converges the timelines into 1 timeline. This actually solves BotW's timeline placement, because Zelda is also a Dragon in botw now, flying around the sacred realm, or above the sky barrier, until Link sends the master sword back in time.
Also, the Master Sword doesn't exist in the past where Zelda is, thus it has to be before Skyward Sword, it even explains where Demise comes from. I also like the idea that the Zonai are the twili, with how they wear masks, and all disappear mysteriously.
A small issue with this is if the ganondorf that rauru seals was a ganondorf that existed before skyward sword, he wouldn't know about the master sword since he was sealed away before it was created. But, when ganondorf awakens in tears of the kingdom, he talks about the master sword as if he knows what it is.
But Rauru tells Ganondorf about Link and (the sword that seals the darkness) while sealing him. That's why Ganondorf also asks Link if his sword really is the master sword at the beginning of the game.
That's explained in the game.
Either this or it's a reboot
No, no, let him cook.
@@brentgrisier1738 nah don't get me wrong, I'm all in for the dish
It’s 100% just a reboot.
All the other games are probably stories someone else was telling. So that’s why things are so different.
@@jaimeruiz7837 if this is true I find it really sad
So the existence of the Rito in BotW/TotK isn't what needs to be explained, it's the existence of the Zora. However, their existence is explained! The Zora in BotW/TotK came from another land. There are five stone tablets scattered around the Lanayru region with the explanation. So these Zora were not from the same lineage that evolved into the Rito. They can both exist together :)
There was an event, similar to the Dragonbreak of The Elder Scrolls, where the 3 branched timelines merged and all games are canon. Sometime after this merging the old Kingdom of Hyrule we knew in previous games had fallen and forgotten. The Zonai came to be, idk where they came from maybe the Triforce made them or some mystic bs. They ruled for a long time, the sky islands being the remnants of their era, and somehow died out. Rauru, the reincarnation of our old owl friend and Sage of Light from Ocarina, decided to use his people’s technology to create a *New* Kingdom of Hyrule. The Imprisoning War takes place, Dorf is sealed away, Zelda takes the Master Sword and retreats to the sky with the Islands returning when Dorf truly returns. While imprisoned, Dorf’s festering malice tries to make him a new body to inhabit. Thus began the origins of Calamity Ganon the entity that rises to menace Hyrule 10k years before BOTW. During its first try, the Shieka, maybe using remnants of Zonai tech, created the Divine Beasts to defeat the Calamity. A different Link and Zelda were born during this time and sealed Ganon away. Not knowing its source was buried deep below the castle. After building up power for 10k years (assuming it didn’t repeatedly do it every few generations) the Calamity seized control of the restored weapons that defeated it and tried to build a new body for Dorf to take over. But this is the point where Rauru’s light magic finally ran out and Dorf returned anyway.
It must take place after the timelines merged. Because, while it’s not directly stated, in order for Ganondorf (along with Link and Zelda) to reincarnate they must have died. Dorf can’t simultaneously be sealed indefinitely and be reincarnated. That’s why there was no new Dorf or Ganon in Twilight Princess and Wind Waker by the time Link and Zelda reincarnate. They’re all the same Ganon from Ocarina. Even the downfall timeline is the Ganon from Ocarina. The Imprisoning War of the downfall timeline trapped him in the Sacred Realm, which became the Dark World in LTTP. It’s the same Ganon revived in the Oracle games (still the same era) but incomplete and mindless, which would later still be resurrected and usurped by Yuga in the next game. Only after this does the next Ganon come to be, the one in Zelda 1.
In the Child Timeline after he died in TP, Ganondorf reincarnated as a Gerudo again and later became Ganon. But in the Adult Timeline, Ganondorf wasn’t slain. He was turned to stone with the Master Sword in his head, in a living death at the bottom of the sea. Thus no new Ganon came to be in later games. (So with a mergered timeline there are 2 Dorfs but one is doing a Kars underwater, and 3 Master Swords exist during that 10k year period and during BOTW)
More importantly, Ganon IS Demise. I know it’s supposed to be his wrath (or malice) that reincarnates with Hylia (Zelda) and her Champion (Link) after Skyward Sword, but it’s consistently been Dorf/Ganon. I think it’s splitting hairs to make a difference between Demise’s hatred and soul, that seems like something that’s part of his soul. And given how TOTK’s Demon King form resembles Demise more than ever, I think it’s a fair assumption.
It makes more sense to me this new series takes place after a timeline merging. I believe it’s the events of Hyrule Warriors that caused it (even tho it’s labeled non-canon) because it literally merges the 3 timelines to being the different heroes of different games. Even the locations. After enough time, they would reshape into the Hyrule that we see in the past of TOTK. If not that game, then there must have been another event that caused it.
Oh and there have been several Imprisoning Wars. 2 (arguably 3) happen after Ocarina. The Sages seal Dorf in the Twilight Realm. The Knights of Hyrule mentioned in LTTP seal him in the Sacred Realm. And it can be argued that the Imprisoning War is when Link defeats him in Ocarina and Zelda with the other Sages seal him away. The last might not be considered a war. But we also have a war against Demise that sealed him as the Imprisoned. After countless cycles of reincarnation, these events can be easily forgotten.
I was losing my mind with theories until this one. And it was a fun watch. The ganondorf sealed throughout the entire timeline thing is what had my mind all discombobulated
There is no Gurudo, no Zora, and no Rito. Therefore, it’s timeline placement has to be at the end of the three branches. No matter where you place it there are holes and missing lore honestly. Also retcons or just unexplained content for whatever reason Nintendo didn’t want to elaborate on the reasons for there being sooo many changes to the series in TotK.
The only problem is with the Rito because the Rito Sage mentions he served the first king of hyrule, but wind waker establishes they didn’t evolve until after ocarina of time because of the flood, so they have to only exist after ocarina of time, so the flashback scenes can’t exist before ocarina unless they existed, died out, and then re-evolved from the zora
I mean, a few thoughts.
1) In Ocarina of Time & ALTTP, it was established that the Golden Land / Sacred Realm was an already established location in the sky wherein the "sacred" aspects would be held, such as the Triforce. Rauru (Likely the child of TOTK Rauru & Sonia) in Ocarina of Time mentions him and the "Ancient sages" created a temple of time next to Hyrule Castle to connect to the one in the Sacred Realm. We also have the Royale Tomb in that game to serve as a bit of a canonized backstory to validate that TOTK's past happens, not Skyward Sword.
2) We don't really "need" Skyward Sword to exist, if the backstory of TOTK takes place both before Skyward Sword, and has a villain that directly creates justification for later mainline series villains -- Ganondorf. Whilst people want to "pretend" we do, the guise behind "a curse" is as arbitrary as Ganondorf wishing a curse on Zelda & Link at the end of Ocarina of Time. If no one cares about "that" curse, but they care about "the curse from demise", we should consider the implication: Is it actually as large of a deal as the fandom makes it out to be?
3) It's very important to acknowledge that the "Demon King" is designed to mix Ganondorf and Demise, likely on purpose, as this probably is the "true events of Skyward Sword" verses the latter. Meaning, Zelda may be her own "Hylia" figure (Her turning into a Dragon as a sacrifice to bring the Master Sword to the present could solidify the intention of the sword being claimed as "the Goddess Sword" whilst seemingly solidifying it's actual notion of "magic" -- In classic Zelda entries, the sword was, as you noted, forged by the sages. This has been a lore implication since 1991 with A Link To The Past. Unfortunately, one title contradicts it, Skyward Sword, and instead of acknowledging "Only one title contradicts this", we poise disagreement and believe that it's flat out "incorrect" that the true origin of the Master Sword is "The sword of a Goddess" instead of acknowledging that Nintendo sneakily portrayed a metaphor in the game:
The "Goddess Hylia" is nothing more than Zelda's presence in the past. "Her" attack and "her" battle being fought, with "her" sacrifice and "reincarnation" are all indirectly touched upon in TOTK. Zelda is Hylia's origin story, if you will. Here's a presented theory with basic thought in the metaphor at play.
Zelda *is* "Hylia", but Hylia never actually existed.
Zelda's traversal back in time had many question who this person was and their direct implication and magic. Her being the descendant of Sonia & Rauru would place her as having sacred power, but it was also hinted that she also had an additional sacred power; The Triforce. Being that "Hylia" is not mentioned (at all) in the past of TOTK (barely in the present lol), it's very simple to note that Zelda's presence in the past would have confused many not looking at Zelda as being a "Time traveling normie from the future", but simply "A Goddess who traveled through time to stop the Demon King, and upon not succeeding, left her Godly form by reincarnating as a mortal" (The descendant of Rauru & Sonia). In doing so, the myth here would have been started.
For the Master Sword, as explained above, the notion of it being the "Goddesses Sword" is as simple as Zelda owning this very same sword in the far distant past before all conflicts. This Sword wouldn't actually be made until later in time, wherein (With actual lore before 2011), it was forged by Hylian's, and then embodied magic from the Sages to counter the powers of the Triforce.
Simply put: Zelda time traveling to the past is Hylia's origin story, and Hylia never actually existed, and Demise is, and had always been, a Ganondorf. Wherein this kickstarts the "Demon tribe" (Gerudo) curse of the Gerudo male.
4) My timeline theory: TOTK Past (Dragon Era) exists before Skyward Sword, Skyward Sword never happened (Along with most gameboy and such entries). The Timeline is now as follows:
TOTK Past, Ocarina of Time: 3 timelines.
Hero not present: A Link To The Past, A Link Between Worlds, The Legend of Zelda, The Legend of Zelda II
Child: (Majora's Mask Side quest), Twilight Princess
Adult: Wind Waker, Breath of The Wild, Tears of The Kingdom
I do believe BOTW & TOTK could exist in either the adult or child timeline, but I permit the belief that it cannot take place in the fallen timeline. I believe it's the Adult timeline because the moving of Hyrule and the numerous changes to the land, along with the location of lurelin villiage, along with the numerous aspects of the depths.
I believe The Depths will be very important for the next entry, which may be a different spin on Twilight Princess, but in the Adult timeline.
Finally for the last piece of evidence of Adult timeline: The Triforce was used and full in only The end of Windwaker. We see Zelda in BOTW use either a piece, of the full, Triforce. The relic is all but myth in this new era of BOTW/TOTK, however in TLoZ & in Twilight Princess, aspects of the separate triforces are still used within respective elements and are not whole. It's feasible that they could exist in the child timeline, however in the fallen timeline, it's imperative to note that it was never "myth" after ALTTP, as it was then in the custody of the newly established Royal Family of Adventure of Link (Do we still even view this game as canon though lmao).
The Sacred Realm isn't in the sky. It's effectively a mirror world, holy or tarnished depending on what point in time you're looking at. Your second point is a very large, unequivocal yes. It's a huge deal. Because you know where Ganondorf got his cursing habit from? Demise. He's the reincarnation. What else do you expect? (Yes I know that the Doylist reason for Demise cursing Link and Zelda is because Ganondorf/Ganon does it, but lore discussions are inherently Wattsonian)
As for your third point, Zelda never once brings up the name "Hylia", and neither does anybody else. Why would you assume that? Besides, Zelda displays no godlike power, nothing noteworthy, because Recall somehow has limits when it's inconvenient for the plot. It's outright Link's Champion ability, or at least power over time is, and he's a god level individual with that being a significant factor. But Zelda stops a dagger and goes back a long way. That's all.
Beyond this you claim that Skyward Sword isn't canon, which entirely invalidates your argument.
@@xenocross6597 Especially Since the master sword Literally speaks/sounds like Fi from Skyward sword.
Edit: there is also a theory that there are two Master swords, The one sent back to the Child timeline and another forged in the adult timeline by the sages as there is no original master sword in the adult timeline.
@@lordjaraxxus5418 Those are two entirely separate timelines, but your first point is another problem with their argument
@@xenocross6597 "The Sacred Realm isn't in the sky. It's effectively a mirror world, holy or tarnished depending on what point in time you're looking at." Huh? You mean the Dark World, the Sacred Realm corrupted by Ganondorf, who used the Triforce to turn it into a mirror world, is a mirror world? If this is what you mean, then that is correct, Ganondorf turned the Sacred Realm, with the power of the Triforce, into a mirror world of Hyrule. The realm was depicted in the booklet for ALTTP, which is pretty common knowledge today at least.
"Your second point is a very large, unequivocal yes. It's a huge deal. Because you know where Ganondorf got his cursing habit from? Demise. He's the reincarnation."
This is a hilarious implication. From 2011? You are correct. Before 2011? He didn't have a "curse" on him. He was simply a bad person who wanted to obtain the power for nefarious reasons. The implication of "a curse" entirely iradicates the morality and purpose of why all classic Zelda entries existed (ALTTP, OoT, WW and even TP). The point of "the curse" was to justify it's statement in translation and text for the 2011 release, rather than anything actually related to the other games. It's Nintendo's "How do we make this fit" solution.
Additionally, "reincarnations" never existed before 2011 in Zelda. This was an additional retcon they did to the Zelda series to justify the claim from Skyward Sword, when Nintendo would consistently depict that "None of the characters were the same" (Barring handheld entries, Nintendo did not care about those fitting in, the crazed fans did; Most of them aren't even created by Nintendo). Simply, every Link & Zelda was unique and new to each entry, and was simply a descendant or ancestor to the previous, that "resembles" them but isn't actually them. This is depicted also even in entries, such as Twilight Princess (Not to mention actual Nintendo interviews this was stated).
Nevermind that "Skyward Sword" created the notion because they "Needed it to fit in with the other games", but simply that you're arguing against it definitively is why you're more confused about the first part. Skyward Sword took existing lore, and warped it. It didn't "write new", it took old, and changed it. There is a drastic difference here.
"As for your third point, Zelda never once brings up the name "Hylia", and neither does anybody else."
You're either missing my point, or you're attempting to justify that the lack thereof signifies importance. They never "Brought up Hylia" because Hylia does not exist. The present time, however, it was mentioned by NPC's. I explained this thought already, however to simplify: Zelda is the "myth" of Hylia, whilst "Hylia" was never really a character, it was the time-traveling Zelda in the past that was the true legend.
"Besides, Zelda displays no godlike power, nothing noteworthy, because Recall somehow has limits when it's inconvenient for the plot." That's because Zelda is not a God or Goddess. Never was....aside from in Skyward Sword, which apparently the same Goddess turned herself into a mortal to use a triforce which she never used to vanquish a demon which she didn't have the power to do so with the very same sword Link uses to do so. Ironic how that game, by large, is entirely facetious in the actual manner of lore.
No, it's not due to "plot", it's because Zelda never had ever, in any actual Zelda game prior to 2011, was provided "God-like power".
"Beyond this you claim that Skyward Sword isn't canon, which entirely invalidates your argument."
Skyward Sword isn't canon. Just like how no one, and I mean no one, liked Skyward Sword until around the time BOTW came out. There was numerous reasons for that, and most weren't even due to controls.
It literally destroyed the lore, and the canon of the series. In order for Skyward Sword to exist, the master sword, the sages, the princess, the kingdom of hyrule, the sacred realm, and the triforce all have different lore implications and use-cases. It takes the concept of the main villain, and warps its purpose from "Real actual reasoning" to "because it's told to be evil from a curse". It takes the premise of "Zelda" and warps it into "Goddess and her servants". It takes the idea of "Zelda" and makes it "Not Zelda".
The reason people hated BOTW's story was due to the same implication as Skyward Sword: It's story was bland. And it's "Design of lore" was entirely made-up on the spot.
TOTK fixes this.
@@lordjaraxxus5418 "Especially Since the master sword Literally speaks/sounds like Fi from Skyward sword." I mean, no. The assumption of "fi" is not correct; Nowhere do they claim it's a spiritual being who was a "servant of Hylia" in the sword of any other Zelda entry. In fact, it was explained in the past originally by "magic", as the whole "talking sword" trope has been around since the Master Sword existed, just not as direct. Symbolism: Lord of the Rings, specifically Sting.
Zelda believes it's fi, but Zelda also believed that she was a Goddess. It took the spirit of Rauru & Sonia to break her curse she put on her own self by swallowing the secret stone.
Just found this channel and I gotta say I am definitely sticking around, great vid man :)
My theorey is it takes place before the imprisoning war, and Ganandorf was Demise all along. The one we know as "Demise" was just a EXTREMLEY powerfull Phantom Ganondorf that the sealed away Ganandorf remotley controlled ore transfered his conciousness into. Cause...Ganandorf KNEW about Link, Zelda and the Master Sword, despite being sealed away, so clearley he somhow was able too contact the outside ore observe it. My theorey is that Demise curse of the haunting hatred....was a fancy way of him saying "I just gonna make a new bodey and come back"...wich he did in the form of the Ganandorf we got too know in Ocarina, BUT this process of rebirth probably meant he did not retain his memories ore any of his powers. And only after being killed did his conciousness return too his mumefied sealed away original bodey and thats when he startet too gather his hate and malice too create a FAR more powerfull Phantom Ganon then Demise. Calamaty Ganon.
Eiji Aonuma literally said BotW takes place after Ocarina of time, so most likely the 3rd option is actually true, not to mention we are literally saying that Ganondorf is around before Demise which can't even happen because Ganondorf is basically Demise's hatred reborn, you also just briefly mentioned twice that there's 2 Ganondorfs throughout the timeline which sounds literally impossible
Epic theory, but you got one thing wrong. Ganon didn't stab sonia, he punched her so hard that she keeled over lmao. This is because they can't show stabbings for rating reasons 👍
Yeah, he broke her spinal cord, and shattered it completely! 😬😬😫😫😭😭
So that was instant death for Sonia.
He was originally planning on letting Phantom Zelda stab her, though, but the Real Zelda came in and prevented that from happening. So Ganondorf had to come in with Plan B and that's "breaking her back". 😖😖
In all honesty, with all that info presented to us at the start and with the various Tears of memories, I came to the conclusion that this does fall in the Downfall Timeline.
However, it seems to me that while Skyward Sword is still canon, they semi-retconned most of Ocarina of Time's events, while using a few plot points, and the backstory of the Imprisoning War, from ALttP, into one whole cohesive, historical event that ACTUALLY happened rather than it being another Hyrulian legend.
Further evidence to help support that would be
- The Tear that showed us Ganondorf's false fealty to Rauru
- The robe & mask Rauru wears, if donned, is an homage to OoT's Rauru when Link awoke in the Sacred Realm
-Sonia's death, as the Sage of Time, at the hands of Ganondorf mirrors OoT Link's death, as the Hero of Time, at the hands that Ganondorf and that loss becomes the catalyst of Ganondorf's rise in power as the Demon King before being imprisoned by the Sages, much like as he was in the backstory told in ALttP
So, it's still in the Downfall Timeline but recontexualized more historically as the downfall of the monarchy of Hyrule
i dont think SS is even canon:
the zonai are the divine race not the hylians (also Sonia is represented as the lesser important partner)
the triforce isnt directly shown
SS was made to explain the old TL and is not really needed anymore in case of a reboot
the master sword only communicates telepathically incontrast to phi or ghirahim
@@hokton8555 totk memories takes place in the past timeline in SS
The imprisoning war is described completely differently. It’s the war for the triforce not the war to seal ganondorf. There’s no sacred realm or even triforce in totks past and the sages are not the seven wise men. Unless the secret stones are pieces of the triforce and off screen it is shown he’s trying to obtain and that sealing hand seals him in the sacred and the fact that a link to the past didn’t happen or is just another part of ganondorf these two wars are completely different the only similarity being their names
@@mrpcakes216 It's described differently because it wasn't historically accurate; that bit of info on Hyrule's inconsistent history was explained to us in Impa's cutscene in BotW.
For both versions of the Imprisoning War, Ganondorf rose to power after killing a significant person and claimed their power, Link and his Triforce of Courage to complete the Triforce in OoT and Sonia's Secret Stone in TotK. Ganondorf using his newfound powers caused a lot of turmoil until the King and the Sages were able to seal him away, which is what happened in both versions of that event, then because of that seal's instability, that would take us to the first Calamity event or what we know as ALttP, that's also assuming those events are historically accurate as well.
@@Iamabum21 bro what, you realise he was sealed in the sacred realm and not just by raurus hand and then later in the timeline he died. So that really can’t be
The only thing I've been able to think about the timeline jow, besides "its all a legend, its essentially a soft reboot" is that this whole thing works on Wheel of Time logic. The same story beats happen over and over again, and little details can vary, but overall its the same book report.
Alternatively, slightly like Bioshock Infinite: "Always a man, a city, and a lighthouse" but I guess "Hero, Sword, Princess, and Demon"
This adds way more character significance than the "everything is in the future its a reboot" mess. This is my headcanon
Maybe a month or two late, but there’s a couple of counter arguments to this that I want to propose.
1) the rito existing in the distant past. This one’s basically a given but it’s established by the devs that they are the Zora who evolved in the adult timeline. Meaning any appearance of them takes place after Oot even the distant past of totk.
2) the gerudo of Rauru’s time have green eyes and pointy ears. Hyrule Historia states that this is either due to generations of breeding with Hylians or that because they have opened to the goddess Hylia. Whatever the case, the fact that the gerudo in Oot have topaz eyes and round ears places Oot before the distant past of totk.
3) something we learn from gannondorfs character profile is that Rauru’s seal was only weakened by hyrule castle being damaged during the 100 year old calamity. So the fact that we see Hyrule castle get destroyed in the events of past games that means that Gannondorf wasn’t sealed down there during those games. Additionally, in botw Impa says “the history of Calamity Gannon is also the history of the royal family” and the original Japanese text says that calamity gannon is born out of “an unstoppable need to reincarnate”. This means Calamity gannon leaks out of the seal because gannondorf isn’t dead and can’t reincarnate, so he has to visit the hero and blood of the goddess in some way as he is bound to the curse. Impas words also tell us that calamity gannon has existed since Rauru’s time. Meaning that the events of past games couldn’t have taken place between Rauru’s time and totk (present).
4) Male gerudo. Hyrule Historia states that no male gerudo has been born since the male that became the calamity (Totk Gannondorf). So the fact that we see a different male gerudo in the past games means that they didn’t take place between Rauru’s time and totk (present)
I understand that these could also be arguments for a reboot and those are very valid points, but Aonuma himself stated that Botw is after Oot on the timeline, so we know it’s connected at least. Judging from the evidence in these points we can draw that the only place totk can really work is for it all (both past and present) to take place at the very end. A good video as always :) and a very well constructed theory too :) these are just my counter arguments.
I like this theory. Idk if it's true, but I like to think the past is so incredibly far into the distant past in relation to totks present story, it gives zeldas sacrifice a lot more depth
There's so much evidence against it being before skyward sword and, honestly, it makes no sense at all. Yeah, there are inconsistencies everywhere you look. No possibility is a perfect match, but thats how the zelda timeline has always been. The most important thing when thinking about timeline placement is the basic intent of the creators and, most importantly, not to overthink too much. In the end, the easiest answer to explain is generally the correct one. There is a gap in the timeline after Skyward Sword that explicitly talks about the foundation of Hyrule (it happened generations ahead of skyward sword), the interloper war from twilight princess (zonai desigs are very similar to the twili and the game has a lot of references to them. Also they have very powerful magic) and there's even mention of the sealing of the sacred realm in the temple of time by Rauru. I know it's probably not the same Rauru (it's supposed to be the one from Ocarina of Time), but to me it feels they are being very intentional about the timeline placement. The developers also said that the timeline has become like real history in the way new discoveries can modify events we thought we knew and add more information. Now think about what the other options mean for the overall structure: new timeline divisions (as if it wasn't confusing enough with only 3) or straight up saying that enough time passed that everything was reset. If the kingdom of Hyrule is a different one why is there a heavy emphasis on the way ancient hylians look, the clear connections to Skyward Sword and the fact that Sonia has the time power inhereted from the reincarnation of goddess Hylia, aka Zelda from Skyward Sword. As for the naming tradition, the game is literaly explaining its origin. After Skyward Sword there is absolutely no reason why Zelda would have the need to keep the same name for her daughter, but in Tears of the Kingdom Sonia learns that thousands and thousands of years later that tradition does exist. It's a loop, beginning and the end. It closes the whole series conflict with the curse of demise and the secret ending heavily implies that this is the real happy ending of the entire series. Obviously they'll keep going with different antagonists or whatever they want to do next, but it feels like the end of an era. One final idea I want to add: time travel in the Zelda series doesnt' create alternate universes when there's not a what if situation. In the beginning of the game, before anything happens, the murals in the ruins under Hyrule castle show what happened to Sonia and the obscured ones show Zelda transforming into a Dragon. The Zelda dragon is already in the sky above the cloud barrier during Breath of the Wild. It was meant to happen that way all along, and it's not another Ocarina of Time situation. I could write a lot more, but this is a sumary of my thoughts.
Very interesting. I think you might be right. Especially with that sky islands being raised bit. However I still think it happens after Skyward Sword. Mainly because how could Sonia have a blood connection with Zelda if Hylia has not become human yet. Also I know you mentioned the races of Hyrule and that there not too important to the story but the how the timeline was structured did take much consideration into that. The existence of the Gerudo doesn’t really bother much, possibly they were just away in SS like they were in TP. The Rito are interesting. My thought is that there was a Rito race before the WW Rito that either went extinct after the events of this game or went away (the OoT manga had a bird race like that). Just my thoughts!
Hylia could be the child of Sonia and Rauru, half hylian, half zonai, having great powers over time with powers like recall, could have also spent her life perfecting the skills and technology of the Zonai, and used those skills and technology to send chunks of land into the sky with her powers and the other sages. Could easily be considered a goddess in the books. Hylia is then favored by the gods and granted the entire Triforce. And then people in general reincarnate into various forms all the time in the Zelda universe, so when Hylia died SS Zelda was her next incarnation.
Hmm what I thought was that it was a proto-hyrule that Sonia and Rauru founded before they died, then the survivors made a new royal family related to Queen Sonia as she was a Hylian and all Zonai went extinct then the Hylians were led by the new Monarchy in Skyward sword, then the kingdom of Hyrule was fully realised after Skyward sword and people just decided that's when it was fully founded when they reached the surface as it was a big change for them.
(Crack Pot Theory here)
What if the goddess Hylia was in fact the child of Rauru and Sonia and just posed as a godess for all Hylians due to the immense power she gained from having a mixed heritage of Zonai and Hylian powers. After all Rauru has sacred light powers and so those Hylia and all reincarnations of Zelda.
This could also possibly explain why the three godess mysteriously disappeared since they probably transformed into the three dragons we see in the game and we know how people turn into those. The three goddess could have also been Zonai who managed to create the triforce in between the sealing of ganondorf and demises war against the people in order to reestablish hyrule while waiting Hylia to come to age to rule Hyrule. But I guess due to story reasons they failed and had to rely on Hylia to protect them all from the Demise incoming threat and the rest is history.
As far as I can tell, I think Nintendo loved their history, but doesn't really care about the timeline. They'll use prior events as Easter eggs and references, but ultimately, they just wanted to tell an entirely new story, unshackled by anything that came before, so that's exactly what they did. I don't think this new era technically ties into the timeline at all! When they reference past games, they are just that: references! Nothing more, nothing less. Hell, in TOTK, they didn't even care much what happened in BOTW, as there's no explanation as to what happened to the Shiekah tech, characters like Bolson who should know you, don't know who you are, your house is now just Zelda's house, the Calamity is barely referenced, and ultimately they just wanted to tells this story, and they didn't care if the other games fit in or not!
I think that it is very possible that we should just start ignoring the timeline from hyrule historia etc. and just make up new ones that make more sense.
I think the Tears of Kingdom past cutscenes are after all the timelines, we see the same landmarks as in BotW/TofK map with the sky islands still on the ground, Ganondorf and all other characters don't mention the triforce at all which is the main source of conflict in the pre Skyward Sword era and the lack of Zonai mentions before the BotW/TofK era. Probably after 10,000 years (at least) of history and multiple world-ending crisis the kingdom of Hyrule was reborn multiple times
good stuff mate, clear and concise!!
The Parella were the precursor to the Zora... and the sage sage of water at the time of the foundation of Hyrule was clearly a Zora. It happens after Skyward Sword.
Aaayyyye! Just posted my video about this a couple days ago. You're the first one I've seen that came to the conclusion as me! Let's get T-Shirts.
I think it makes so much sense. I really like what you said about the sages too! I kind of glazed over them. I didn't remember the bit about the master sword being formed by them. I feel like it's really plausible it could have been those sages. And since half of them are dead by the end of the game, that could be why there are different ones beside Hylia in the prolog to Skyward Sword.
With respect to Tears of the Kingdom, it's worth noting that the depths contain the gear of all of the past incarnations of Link. In BOTW, they were only accessible through amiibo. This time though, you can find "old maps" across the sky islands that will lead you to the pieces of previous Links. I've encountered Fierce Deity, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and Zelda 1's armor sets in the depths. They're often in the deepest parts of the depths. I'd say that this canonizes them to the game.
The Depths also has ruins that imply a people separate from the Zonai lived there a very, very long time ago. To me, some of the statues in the depths look like the models for races like the gorons and Zora that you see in previous games. The land is full of Poes, which we learn are wandering spirits of people lost to the world. Then there's the shadow creatures that offer Link weapons as he traverses the depths. This land is full of signs that a past tragedy occurred in the old land of Hyrule. Something that killed a lot of people and buried their past civilization. Then, right on top of it you find Zonai constructions. Beneath every major landmark on the surface, you find a Zonai landmark in the depths dedicated to creating Zonai Tech. So the Zonai set up in locations relevant and familiar to the ancient lands of Hyrule and began developing and sharing their tech with its inhabitants.
For all of this to be as deep in the Earth as it is, a truly insane passage of time should have occurred. So I think that even the era of Rauru's kingdom is very far future for Hyrule. Perhaps it's after a merging point for the previous timelines, or perhaps it sits in just one of them. I'm not really sure. But it's clear that the past games DID happen in TotK. I'm guessing that the Zonai descended from the heavens to restore a shattered Hyrule, and Rauru was the first king of the restored Kingdom.
I've been waiting for someone somewhere to do this. And a video with all the references in the story to other games in the timeline.
I heard Nintendo officially annonce BotW is far beyound all timelines. Since they release BotW, all other games become era of myth. This should be solid fact that no any theories can counter, unless Nintendo lied.
But... I have a theory. "timeloop". If BotW+TotK can be after all timelines and before Skyward sword, only theory can explained is timeloop. That mean Zelda universe is in time loop. TotK can lead to new loop of skyland era, but we still need more stories after TotK to complete this theory. maybe 1 or 2 more games.
Timeloop can be like this: >> Skyland >> come down to found Hyrule >> OoT >> timeline splitted >>>>> long time pass >>>>> all timeline become one, BotW+TotK >> event that make people exodus to sky and begin new loop
i've had very similar thoughts in my head ever since watching all the game's cutscenes and i've been so eager for videos like this to start flooding the internet lol
A few issues. How do Zora and Gerudo exist? Evolution hasn't done its thing yet so its impossible that they exist. What's even more impossible is the existence of Rito. Rito are an evolution of the Zora and the ONLY reason they evolved like that is because Hyrule was flooded by saltwater in WW which Rito cant live in. So how tf are they alive millennia before there species is even created.
Another thing is the fact that at the bottom of the castle in totk, its stated that the castle was built to ensure that Ganondorf never escaped. We see Hyrule castle getting destroyed MULTIPLE times over the series like in OOT, Zelda 1 and WW if you count the castle being flooded as being destroyed. If the tablet is in fact stating the truth, then totk Ganondorf should've escaped in OOT.
My last issue is how easily accessible the imprisoning chamber in totk is. The fact that none of the countless other Zeldas, Links and especially Ganondorfs never found the other Ganondorf chilling beneath Hyrule Castle is extremely unrealistic. Even if the easily accessible entrance to the imprisoning chamber is for gameplay reasons or could be argued as being a knit pick, the amount of time Hyrule Castle was destroyed should've revealed the imprisoning grounds open for OOT Ganondorf to freely explore.
All in all, the theory fits nicely at first but once you actually start seeing how much retconning Nintendo would have to do to make this happen, it just doesn't seem realistic in the end.
I don't think Botw and Totk are anywhere on the timeline we know. I think we are seeing a new timeline that has either converged early in the timeline or is a paradox where all the timelines have collapsed into one another to form one completely new timeline that is dettached from the other timelines
5:26 the game kinda somewhat explains why her name is sonia and not zelda, there is a sidequest in totk about ancient writtings in kakariko village and one of them says that sonia wasn't born into royalty rather when the zonai decended she was a priestess and adviser to rauru and later on he fell in love with and married her which then made her queen
One of the biggest reasons BotW is considered to be at the real tail end of the Timeline is bc you have the Rito and Zora existing together. In Windwaker the Rito are said to have evolved from the Zora.
But the Rito and Zora Sages both existed in Hyrule's founding in TotK.
Hey! Good theory! You just earned a new subscribee
You have the potential to make it big, I wish you luck!
I don’t remember where I heard this but I remember watching a video that said that the TOTK world is kinda an alternate timeline and that it would take the place of OOT in the timeline (proof of this could be the ganondorf bowing down memory, sages and the time parallels in TOTK) kinda makes sense to me
My personal headcannon is that TotK happens in a timeliness that diverges right after skyward sword and that after skyward sword the zonai help the hylians found hyrule but die out before OoT with entirely separate sages having the power passed down from the original 7. This means in the standard timeline that splits off normally at OoT there were other sages before descended from the TotK ones. In the alternate timeline though Ganondorf is born much earlier, right after skyward sword when the original (TotK) sages are still alive. Because of this he takes a sage stone instead of the triforce of power and is therefore unable to resist the imprisonment like in twilight princess, he is also just weaker because he doesn't have as much time to grow his power like in OoT. After he is sealed the events of all other timelines still happen but without Ganondorf meaning that all the other heroes instead just act as a line of great heroes that protect the peace and the princess but each has their own traits that lend them names like the hero of wind/time/twilight. In this case say the hero of twilight still fights a threat from the twilight (eg. Zant) but without Ganondorf's support and so every threat is easily dealt with leading to a time of prosperity which is why the other "hero of" sets and other similar items exist but are only mentioned as an off reference every once in a while like an armor or a location name. After this age of peace though the power of Rauru weakens and Ganondorf's power begins to seep out and creates the calamity. This is defeated and while link and Zelda are looking for the cause of that and the new gloom etcetera etcetera tears of the kingdom happens. In that case I think that Ganondorf is dead in this timeline and it goes on to be prosperous again. I would personally call this the "imprisoning timeline" or maybe the "prosperous timeline"
BotW and TotK are on a separate timeline, taking a lot of inspiration and easter eggs and references from the mainline to make fans happy. Not good or bad, it's just a different experience that's all
Yeah, a soft reboot
Yessss
Two of the gerudo at Ganondorfs side are named after the twin witches in OoT if this infourmation can be useful
could make sense
tho the modern part of the game might be in the Fallen Hero timeline due to the mentioning of the imprisoning war
which could mean that if the memories takes place as far back as before Skyward Sword, it would eventually lead to the imprisoning war and eventually 10.000 years into the future where Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom happened
which does really make you wonder if Ocarina of Time Ganon was part of our new Ganon's malice, like the calamity or if there once was 2 Ganondorf's due to Demise's curse (...and maybe villains like Vaati and Yuga could be somehow connected to that curse and hatred too)
Here is the thing the every royal girl must be named zelda. Law was only in the downfall timeline as far as I remember. Her brother, in the downfall time, was the one who made the law.
In the minish cap there is mention of "the wind tribe" witch sound alot like the zoni, so it could be possible that they existed before skyward sward
Except the Zonai are not a tribe of wind "folk", they're deity-like beings that deal with magic.
The Minish Cap was also designed and permitted by Capcom rather than the Nintendo creators anyway, so I'd take all of that as a grain of salt, as it didn't even have to permit to the same lore as the games in question (By which, I'd argue that Skyward Sword in itself is also a very same contender -- it's writer had no care about previous lore, which is why it took previous lore, rewrote it, and claimed it to be the origin of each).
I think it's the simplest conclusion to come to with everything but I get hung up on ganondorf being sealed and multiple other reincarnations running around... I'd like to think it was supposed to loop around like you say but all the subtle differences like zelda having two kinds of powers upset the flow of events and it basically loops into a separate but connected time line (if you can picture that) that runs parallel to the original
Three issues that negate the possibility of this being valid:
1. There was a Rito sage.
The Rito didn't begin to exists until near the age of the hero of winds (thanks to Valoo changing some of the Zora)
2. There was a Zora sage
In the era of Skyward Sword, the Zora make no appearance, but the Gorons do. The only aquatics are the Parella.
3.Sonia's "time power"
Hylia is often thought of as the "Godess of Time", so it would make sense that her power was passed on through her bloodline. Note that secret stones do not bestow power, but enhance an already existing one dramatically.
That being said, due to some of the strange convergences in lore (mention of both great sea and twilight in botw), my personal thought is that this might take place after some sort of temporal/reality convergence at the end of the three established timelines.
my idea is that its a timeline split between ss and minish cap, where only one timeline has the zonai, and the imprisoning war is essentially this timelines version of oot
Definitely one of my favorite theories!
My theory is that after all the timelines were unified, everything was under the sea because of Wind Waker's Great Flood and in that game nobody knew anything about the kingdom of Hyrule because it was sunk under the sea for many years. Then the goddesses Farore, Din and Nayru sacrificed themselves and became the dragons Farosh, Dinraal and Naydra to remove the sea, then the Zonai who were descendants of the gods came down from the skies and refounded the kingdom of Hyrule that no one knew of it because it was thousands of years under the sea. This would explain how there are Rito and Kologs in Rauru's time and also that there aren't 2 Ganondorfs. I don't think Botw and Totk have their own universe apart from the original one as there are many references to previous games like some weapons like the White Sword that the sages tried to use in Twilight Princess to kill Ganondorft or armors like Fierce Deity's, the Helmet of Zant, Majora's Mask and of course the armor of previous Links. There are also direct mentions of Ruto and Nabooru being sages in Ocarina of Time, and the names of the divine beasts derive from the sages as well.
I don't think the Golden Goddesses sacrificed anything, in the pantheon of Zelda it seems clear to me that they're just amoral all powerful beings, who doesn't really in taking any direct action at an personal level. This is also the reason why the Triforce itself can be used for whatever being, regardless of their intentions, except their own kind, which includes Hylia in her original form.
They flooded the land because people prayed for that, the godessess didn't take any direct action themselves, but most probably answer for worship.
It doesn't make sense to then to flood Hyrule and then transform into something else to remove the flood. Those dragons was probably older Zonai figures that transformed themselves either by accident or for some other reason. We don't have an explanation why the practice of swallowing the secret stones was forbidden and why, we also don't know if at that time those dragons are already flying through Hyrule. Maybe some descendants of the sages transformed into then after the first Calamity happened for example, in an effort to fight it somehow. Despite losing your overall individuality or conscious level after transforming, it's obvious that Dragons has whatever intention that their former creator had before transformation as we seen with the Light Dragon and Demon Dragon on TOTK. But I, personally, believe they was already flying in Hyrule at the time Zelda arrives in the past, and they was ancestors of the sages. The names itself means little to nothing tbh, it may just be an homage.
The Zonai seems to be more close related to the goddesses somehow, but they're still mortals. Probably the Pantheon of gods on Zelda universe exists in another layer of reality or above the skies as we know. Hylia despite being reborn as a mortal, still exists in an "divine" form as the statues for worship shows.
@@daniloberserk It may not have been the goddesses who removed the sea, it could have been the Zonai themselves, the point is that the Zonai founded the kingdom after the Great Flood. I admit that the goddesses took away the sea was very speculative but I am pretty sure that the dragons and the goddesses are the same entities or are strongly related, since their names are very similar and they represent the same elements.
There’s like multiple possible new timeline splits, I think botw and Totk are in their own split. Presumably there’s a timeline where Zelda didn’t travel back in time and rauru wasn’t able to seal Gannondorf. In my mind that defeat timeline is the one where botw never happens and the official timeline comes into play
Then there’s the time travel shenanigans in Skyward sword, possibly creating another split
Also, if botw takes place in any distant future I’d imagine it’s the decline timeline as it’s the timeline where Gannon is constantly resurrected in his beast form
only one thing bothers me... the gerudo in breath of the wild say that they haven't had a male born in more than 100 years and i assumed its cos the previous one didnt die and you could not have two of them at the same time without involving time travel. so having new ganondorves around while an other is sealed sounds wrong to me. maybe i am missing something or missremembering something. somebody will correct me probably
Honestly I feel the explaination that mostly cleans things up is an extension of the "It's after everything" option. AKA "The Dragon Break"
If you are unfamiliar with Elder Scrolls, a Dragon Break is a in-universe phenomena that occurs whenever the events of a ES game take place (since Daggerfall), in which time is in flux, and multiple possibilities are overlayed on top of each other and are occurring at the same time in essence.
After X Years (Be it hundreds, thousands.etc), that period of temporal instability ends and all histories are indistinguishable from each other in the present, even in regards to history books/geography.
I think this is actually what happened when Zelda sent link to the past at the end of OOT, she created a period of temporal instability where multiple histories were happening ontop of each other.
This also actually solves a bit of a wrinkle with the existence of the Downfall timeline, as by the nature of the timeline, it should actually be hundreds of timelines with slight differences in which Link somehow fails on his journey in OOT, be it a child or adult.
So the "Downfall Timeline" is moreso the "Collection of Events that consistently occur after Link happens to die in OOT".
a Dragon Break solves this as it's just part of the overlayed histories as part of that temporal instability.
Now, in the case of a Zelda Dragon Break it'd have to be an EXTREMELY long period of Temporal Instability, Milenia or even Millions of years. But considering how Zelda already broke the timeline with sending Link back to the past, not the most unreasonable.
As for how this applies to the lore in TOTK/BOTW, it pretty much would be like this
At the end of every "timeline" we have a unseen period of time in each which is unquantifyably long in which faciimlie events from the other timelines happen in each (The Child Timeline has a Great Flood, the Adult Timeline deals with people trying to resurrect Ganondorf, the Downfall Timeline deals with The Twilight Realm.etc).
At the end of this period of time, the worldstate of the land that would become Hyrule is virtually indistinguishable between all timelines, and all factors are unified.
The backdrop for this virtual reunificiation is
-Hyrule fell an unknown number of years ago, therefore the reincarnation of Hylia no longer was named Zelda due to the tradition of naming daughters in the family Zelda falling away after it's fall (Thus why it's Queen Sonia)
- Ganondorf Reincarnates again after his previous incarnations' deaths in each timeline, Ganondorf, like Link and Zelda, having been reincarnated many times due to Demise's curse of Hatred facilitating his existence when a Gerudo male would be born and whatever incarnation it took form of last was actually dead.
- The Zonai people evolved and Raaru eventually met Sonia and fell in love, the two's power and wisdom combined allowing them to found a new Hyrule.
- Zelda from BOTW/TOTK time warps back, causing another temporal destabilization, which completes the "Reunifiying" of the timelines (As in the end of the previous period of temporal instability).
This solves a lot of the inconsistencies IMHO between the current timeline, BOTW, and the history TOTK depicts.
BOTW directly references the events of OOT in established world documents like the Zora Monument Text which directly references the events of OOT with Ruto's ascension to a Sage and helping Zelda and Link (Specifically those two as it mentions the Swordsman of legend) fight Ganondorf.
and as TOTK is a direct sequel to BOTW, that lore is canon to itself, therefore has to be factored in.
So pretty much the timeline is this
-Skyward Sword
-First Kingdom of Hyrule Founding
-Minish Cap
-Four Swords
-OOT
-Temporal Instability where the Downfall, Child, and Adult Timeines occur
-X Years pass in all timelines, and the instability starts to die down and events start getting more and more similar
-The Zora, Rito, Gorons, and Gerudo all eventually experience resurgence and defied the odds of extinction they faced in each individual timeline.
-The Kingdom of Hyrule in all timelines falls, the tradition of naming the royal daughter Zelda goes into remission due to there being no Royal Family anymore
-The Zonai evolve
-Ganondorf Reincarnates
-Raaru meets Sonia, and the two's power and wisdom let them form a new Hyrule
-Zelda barrels into the past, creating a bootstrap likely as Raaru and Sonia's child's descendant(s) likely name their daughters Zelda after her, restarting that royal family trend.
-TOTK past occur
-Ganondorf Seperates Calamity Ganon off of him shortly after his sealing (a generation or two), a Zelda and a Link exist here, and with Raaru's Sacrifice, the Shekiah picked up the slack and made the Divine beasts to help beat Calamity Ganon.
-10K Years Pass
-100 Years before BOTW occur
-BOTW
-6-7 Years pass
-TOTK
OR OR in Skyward Sword Link goes to the past seals demise goes to the future and what happens to Hyrule in the past after link leaves maybe Zonai goes to the surface and watching how there is some hylians Raaru makes it his kingdom falls inlove with sonia and become first King and Queen maybe a possibility
@@k4m1_playz critical flaw. The Rito Exist in Raaru's time. With no chance to evolve.
Same with all the other major races actually, no Zora or Geurdo either
@Alovon maybe it takes place 100 years after the events of past timeline you know how in past zelda games we have seen evolution take place with the Zora and the Rito in wind water literally taking place 100 years later form OoT
Wind Waker*
@@k4m1_playz Hyrule didn't fall or get refounded in that short of a timespan?
Not to mention the Rito evolved during the Great Flood....so no real Hyrule to found on
In the idea, you might be good. Still, the Forgotten Temple is basically the time one from SS, even featuring the Tree that heals all illness in the place it should be. In SS, we never had a Zonai council room behind that statue of the goddess-like in TOTK, meaning the Goddess statue must have descended before they constructed that room. Also and all the diverse references to previous games and timelines, even multiple armour/weapon sets from past heroes or foes being accessible that give lore about it being from Long gone past or even, in the case of the Ganondorf set, BEING FROM ANOTHER DIMENSION.
We are in the 3 timeline convergence, but so much later that even the previous games have no relevance; the older Hyrule idea has been lost to time. So the New (NEW) Hyrule is made on the ground of a new landscape by the Zonai descended from the dragons(and Hylia's will possibly), Rauru being the sage of light in OOT, has its name given to the new Zonai Rauru to show its importance and power by Hylia.
OR
We may be on a different timeline. So we do see some remake of the idea of the foundation of Hyrule, but it's in another timeline so older games don't matter anymore and are more so references. So basically, Zelda's Reboot.
takes place in the past timeline in Skyward Sword
I thought it was established that there were no gerudo males because ganon was sealed if we take that into account a second one appearing makes no sense
It's stated in game that zelda and minaru raised the islands. Also it can't be before skyward sword. Because in skyward sword the species that turn into the zora still aren't zora, plus you have rito. So that would be saying the zora were a species. Devolves into the fish things in skyward sword. Then re evolves into the zora, and also split into the rito.
In one of the later memories, Zelda is on the great sky island but it’s very clearly still on the ground at that point
1 question here, if king rauru choose 1 of each species according to the world. Why isnt ganon been choosen for gerudo. And hold the secret stone??
Still missing from here is a convergence of the three split timelines, there's a reference made to The Imprisoning War, Twilight Princess and The Hero of Winds, I think that Hyrule Warriors is that convergence
Its simple, the past that Zelda ended up in was at some point after skyward right before minish cap while botw/totk is at the very end of a timeline which can either be in downfall or child link. Or the unlikely event of it being a new timeline entirely bc one thing bothers me, how are rito and zora co existing in the same timeline? It was explicitly explained that the rito were descendants of the zora
One of the big indicators imo that TOTK memories occur before skyward sword is that the master sword does not exist in those memories. Thoretically if the sword existed back then Zelda could likely power it up without having to turn into a dragon, research how to time-travel, and leave the broken sword in the pedastal to heal and become the sword some other Link uses.
Just because we didn't see the sword doesn't mean it didn't exist in the past...
Furthermore, since both the memories and the Calamity legend from BOTW occurred 10000 years ago, and the Calamity legend is heavily tied to a chosen hero using the Master Sword to beat Calamity Ganon, the Master Sword definitely did exist around the time of the flashbacks.
And this isn't forgotten lore, the ancient hero wielding the Master Sword is elaborated on with the Ancient Hero Aspect in TOTK, which gives Link the form of that hero from 10000 years ago. That hero who wielding the Master Sword. That hero who looks suspiciously Zonai. That hero from a battle 10000 years ago, nearly the same time as the memories in TOTK.
So yeah, the Master Sword not existing back then doesn't make any sense when just after the memories, a Zonai hero needed to wield the Master Sword to seal Calamity Ganon
Like the only way this idea works is if Skyward Sword takes place in the unknown but likely short stretch of time between the memories of TOTK set 10000 years ago, and the sealing of the Calamity, also 10000 years ago.
That, and the notion that the Master Sword in past entries (ignoring skyward sword) was not a sword created by the god's, but a sword created by the sages -- and the sages did not exist yet, is a direct telling indication as to where and how all of this adds up.
A lot of the problem is people try their absolute f***ing hardest to make everything "connect to skyward sword", instead of realizing "Maybe that games story was actually entirely wrong".
It would have to take place before Skyward Sword in order for the "Demon King" to be a demon king. In addition, Skyward Sword never specified who "The bringer of demise" is, and directly told us about a war that existed already, and happened to seal this very same person.
In addition, Skyward Sword also directly implied, in that game itself, that there was already a hero before Skyward Sword, other Hylian's in hyrule (Before skyward sword), and various implications about the time period in question (before skyward sword). In essence: Skyward Sword, by itself, isn't even the first game in the series, and it certainly didn't "Create the lore and story", as it more (or less) borrowed the lore and adjusted / tweaked it to fit into an entirely different (and entirely convoluted) story.
From what I have seen so far the Hyrule created by King Rauru is lacking an important feature that gives us another hint about the time: The Triforce emblem. All other versions of Hyrule and even Skyloft have this symbol. Rauru's Hyrule hasn't. So it may be indeed the first instance of this realm where the Triforce emblem wasn't used yet. About multiple Ganondorf's: I think these two Ganondorf's are connected in a way. With Calamity Ganon we can see that the power the "first Ganondorf", even if limited, can still reach outside his prison. So why not corrupting another Gerudo King, maybe already at birth, then turning this king slowly but surely into himself?
Why people always forget the fact that Sonnia is a Hylian, so she descends from Hylia, soo... Is imposible to be before. Not all royal blood women are exactly chosen ones like Zelda
I had thoughts.
1.) What if its all the same Ganandorf and just reincarnations of each other, or puppets, rather. And thr OoT, TP, and WW are the closest Demise got to coming back so he kept using those forms eventually gaining enough power to reclaim the role of Demon King starting a new cycle (see point 4 below).
2.) In Skyward Sword, even then you go even farther back in time. If I recall, the Lanayru Desrt was once a large body of water. There's also the weird little robot people. So like, how far back does the world go? But that may be evidence of the Zonai.
3.) I feel like Tauru looks like the Mogma dude with the hair over his eyes.
4.) I like the idea TotK falls after the main timelines. When Demise cast his curse on them, he made the whole thing a recurring cycle. I had thought of every game as a new cycle. But what if the "Era of Myth" (the time from Skyward Sword to the last game before BotW) was one single large cycle. There's a very very very large gap of time between then and BotW. Once Hyrule fell for whatever reason (maybe it didnt even fall, maybe it just got lost to time and people forgot), but the "cycle" began again with a second imprisoning war, a second raising of the islands, a second "forging" of the Master Sword, etc. And now going forward, we're in the second large over-arching cycle.
5.) Where tf is the Triforce? Is it irrelevant? Maybe something in the past in the 10,000+ years previously caused the merging of timelines and the destruction or loss of the Triforce? If the Triforce was lost, maybe thats why we now have secret stones? Something had to be created that was powerful enough to defeat evil. And maybe thats why we never heard of the stones before. They didnt exist unti llater.
6.) I can get behind TotK being prior to Skyward Sword. But it just doesnt fit quite right to me. Isnt Demise supposed to be a legit god? Not someone who just got a lot of power?
7.) Is Gandorf/Demise dead now? He's "died" in the other games, so i doubt it but.. ??? What's next?
8.) How many times has Hyrule been founded? There was the Skyward Sword ending, at some point the world was flooded and they founded a new Hyrule, the founding from Ruaru and Sonia, probably the original founding from Hylia/the goddesses. Thats also why i like to think of TotK as a new different Hyrule. Its been recreated multiple times already.
There's just too much stuff. Nintendo needs to explain immediately.
Good video, btw! I'm so excited for all the theories to come out. I think yours is the first I've been able to find.
Edit: Also, where do the Ooca fit in to all this? Ahhhhhhh!
I think that the past of TOTK happened before Skyward sword. Half zonai Sonia and raaru daughter (a god in Hylian eyes because she can outlive them) is hylia. She lived some generations and them, ganondorf spirit created demise (this way he is only the manifestation of the tears power) and his curse produce the birth of OG ganondorf and vaati. Apart from that I think that the underground is the sacred realm and that the goddess sword and the fourth sword are the last weapon created with the almost forgotten zonai tech.
During demise war hylia raised the land above the cloud barrier, so we can visited them in so many games, and between demise war and Skyward sword the rito, the gerudo and the zora flew away and other races (more primal) ocupaid the land. In later more peaceful eras these races return to hyrule
Ive watched about 5 hours of zelda timeline explanations and placements of botw and totk and still have no idea what to think of any of it
I love the theory, I was trying to come up with something like this while playing the game but you did it better than I could have. Personally, I think nintendo is creating an entirely new and separate timeline stemming from breath of the wild, given it's almost nonexistent connection to any of the three branches of the preexisting timeline.
My theory is that the kingdom of Hyrule was gettin new established by the Zonai after all the older titles. See, 2 of the 3 timelines are ending with a completely wasted Hyrule. Maybe the Zonai came at some point and recreating the kingdom with the last Hylians, which made them also the first ones and Rauru the first King.
12:51 normally when I watch a video from a new youtuber Ive never seen before and like that video and think its well made, I subscribe. This time i'm not I just had pizza and don't need another
😔
Where are the missing races from Skyword Sword? I really want to know.
i think youre theory would be more succinct if it had some elements of the dragonbreak theory too. the reason we see rito and zora in the same timeline now is bc of the cyclical loop of zelda going back in time, closing the timeline split, and thus creating a "past" and "present" that have all those species coexisting!!
regardless i loved the video and absolutely agree. also i saw somewhere that one of the writers for skyward sword is also the writed for botw and totk. why would they retcon so much lore? theyre definitely adding nuance and layers to it. why else would they use so much of the same verbage and language to regard so many events that are EERILY similar
Many branches of the “timeline” we all know started before “the timeline” the hero of the sky started. “The timeline” we all know of however there are at least three separate ones that follow more or less the same path. One where the hero of the sky used the triforce to destroy demise. One where he destroyed demise with the master sword. And one where demise was resurrected by sacrificing Zelda and then destroyed ( the are many others potentialities but we need the curse to be laid by demises loss at links hands). Essentially the forked timelines we know of from ocarina are all branches of the initial split timeline from the hero of the sky. So, if breath of the wild is on a line formed by the initial split at the start of Demises curse then it doesn’t need placement on the line. All things can still be true and ganondorf can still be the ganondorf we know just from an alternate timeline which again explains why he behaves and follows all the story beats of ocarina of times ganon…because he is just in a different world.
Personally I think that everything, even the time of Rauru and Sonia are at the end of the timeline, however, specifically in the adult timeline. I think that there are two Hyrules at this time. There is the Hyrule that Link and Tetra founded, but there is also the now drained Hyrule due to the Great Deku Tree's plan working after thousands of years. Once drained, the people left behind that were still on the islands came down and were just hanging around, and then the Zonai showed up and Rauru established his kingdom, possibly taking the name Hyrule from old myths and legends about the land. Thus it is a new kingdom, and Rauru and Sonia could be the first monarchs of that kingdom. The only flaw I see in this is how one with the blood of Hylia would be in Rauru's Hyrule. Maybe just someone of the royal family, or someone related to them travelled to this land that word spread about, and they came and either Sonia was their descendent, or that person was Sonia herself who traveled. Although, they would need to be related to the royal family of New Hyrule, but distant enough to not know of their royal origin. Aside from that one issue, I think it all taking place at the end of the adult timeline, but in the remains of Old Hyrule makes sense.
Is it just me or is anyone else questioning the fact that we have a rito sage when the Rito are Zora descendants from between OoT and Wind Waker? I wasn't questioning it before because yadi yadi convergent timeline for BOTW but seeing how Rauru and Sonia era also had Rito makes me wonder if it's not just... Botw being SO far in the distant future that the memories in ToTk are just... part of the convergent timeline too, but closer to the point of actually converging relative to botw
Is zelda's light power (inherited from rauru) and her goddess power (inherited from the skyward zelda) the same power or not?
If they are the same power then rauru must be a descendant of skyward zelda, which is kinda weird but makes some sense
If they are different powers, what's the distinction? What counts as rauru's power to purge evil with light and what counts as hylia's powers of light?
Id like to make an argument for totk coming after the current timeline and before botw.
Sometime between the timeline we know and botw, twinrova for whatever reason is ressurected (they came back for the Oracle games, they can do it again). We already know twinrova exists because the two are seen very breifly behind ganondorf in one of the totk memories, and I believe they attempted the same ritual as in the oracle games, this time succeeding in bringing back ganondorf in his entirety.
Princess zelda arrives in the past, and the newly ressurected ganondorf pledges his alligence to the king of hyrule just as he did in oot, without the knowledge or memories of his past life.
I think this makes the most sense at least imo, because hyrule castle in totk was originally built to hold the seal on the mumified ganondorf, meaning we wouldve seen it already had it come elsewhere. This also still fits with the auroboros logo and theming because of the repeated actions from older games, making it more of a metaphorical loop than a literal time loop
I think a massive problem with this is Ganondorf himself. Ganondorf is implied to be the reincarnation of Demise's hatred, or of Demise himself, and thus couldn't exist while Demise himself was still alive, before he was defeated by the hero and cursed him, Zelda, and Hyrule.
In addition, it is stated in the game the Gerudo tribe hadn't had a male born to them for a very long time, seemingly because Ganondorf was still alive beneath Hyrule. Meaning that so long as TOTK Ganondorf lived, no other male Gerudo was born. This becomes complicated by the fact OOT/WW/TP/Downfall Ganondorf exists not that long after Skyward Sword. This means the PRESENT of BOTW and TOTK needs to take place either before Skyward Sword or in the unified timeline after Skyward Sword, but before OOT. This doesn’t really make sense however considering very ancient ruins from Skyward Sword (the Springs and the Sealed Temple) exist, it makes it unlikely the present of BOTW/TOTK exists around the time of SS.
As for before OOT, well, the old Temple of Time and Castle Town from OOT exist as ruins in the game as well, meaning BOTW/TOTK's present occur after OOT.
So knowing that BOTW and TOTK (present) occurs after OOT, and knowing the Gerudo haven't had a male born to them in the time TOTK Ganondorf has lived and been sealed under Hyrule, how then does OOT Ganon exist if the past of TOTK occurs before OOT and SS? It doesn’t make sense. The only way to make sense of all of this is if both the past and present of TOTK occur after Ocarina of Time, after that Ganondorf has already died.
The Rito didn't exist in Skyward. Their first appearance was Wind Waker, yet one of the Sages was a Rito. So Zelda had to go back no further than sometime after Hyrule sank beneath the sea when one branch of the Zora evolved into the Rito, and after the ocean receded.
I literally live for Zelda timeline theories
This is awesome