I totally, totally, agree! From the day I left school to the day that I retired, I was a working professional photographer, and just as you stated, professional work is what the client wants and not necessarily what you want. After I retired, I tried out a local camera club as we call them in the UK. I didn't tell them that it used to be my job. I was criticised by the husband and wife team that were in charge of running it and took most of it on the chin, but when I didn't fight back, I noticed that I was being used as an example of what not to do if you wanted to be a "good photographer." Eventually, I had had enough and decided to bring in my old company portfolio, displaying photographs that had been used by famous brands and had been seen by millions of people. The result was very red faces, but as expected, no apology.
Very well said and I cannot fathom how someone could say hang about the “merit” of someone else’s photos. I’ve said before to you that I’m far from a pro and just a hobbyist - and as such, I have only one client and that is myself.
I watch your videos because they are entertaining, educational, and because they always make GOOD SENSE. And this video is one of the absolute best. Thanks for starting my day off right.
Some years ago, I photographed the railway line at Auschwitz Birkenau. I posted the image to Flickr and was almost immediately met with the unrequested critique telling me "you should crop out the building at the end" - the actual Auschwitz entrance! That was the point when I decided to ignore all future critique unless I asked for it.
Hey John, I used to post to a popular M4/3rds site. One day I posted a pretty routine shot of a female friend of mine and her cool car. Well I got absolutely roasted in the comments section. Nothing about the quality or composition of the photograph just absolute vile comments about the model and her “character etc.” It’s as if everyone becomes an expert and all bets are off when it comes to criticism. I was surprised that the Admins allowed to nonsense to continue and in my mind it really lowered my opinion of that site in my eyes. I decided to delete the photo and pull the ‘chute on my participation in that particular community. I fully understand and value constructive criticism, but vitriol and being mean spirited do not belong. Great video and some really good points you have brought up. Cheers
The only critique I give a sh*t about is one I ask for. And the number of times I've done that will probably remain at zero. I absolutely do not care what anyone else thinks of my art.
I completely agree with you about most critiques. I've been through formal critiques many times, and the best approach is to reject the pseudo-intellectual crap, which seems to come with the territory, and extract the comments that make sense in that you can implement them to good effect. In the case of Vivian Maier, there are some things worth mentioning. We now know a lot about her life from the authoritative biography by Ann Marks (Vivian Maier Developed) and the prevailing myth that she worked in seclusion her entire life, photographing only for herself, which is precisely that: a myth. While that description probably applies to the latter part of her life, when she became beset more and more by mental illness, in her early years when she lived in New York, she actively pursued a professional photography career. The voluminous collection of her negatives contains attempts at professional photography, such as paparazzi photos of celebrities. She also shared her work with other professional photographers in New York. Even with this, it is a fact that despite the exquisite work, she has not been collected to any great extent by major museums, nor are her images particularly sought out by galleries and private collectors. The reason for that has absolutely nothing to do with her being critiqued by some self-professed expert. It is because what museums, commercial galleries, and private collectors collect are prints. The final print, the object of value, has been ostensibly created by or under the artist's supervision. The problem with Vivian Maier is that there are few extant prints, and, having seen a few, most look like camera store prints, not anything she labored over in the darkroom. The prints produced now from her negatives were made by someone else long after she was gone. Since no one knows what Vivian Maier's prints would look like if she had made them, they become far less collectible.
I watched a video of two rather well known photographer/teachers and their comments on the images sent in and after about 15 minutes I decided they were intimidated by anyone that an ounce of style or creative ability. They were gatekeeping. The same thing happens in many camera clubs where there are several very good photographers that make comments about work by lesser experienced folks that sound like they are judging at Nuremberg Trials. Even Ansel Adams said that 12 outstanding images a year was a goal worth shooting for. I was looking back at my images that I have stored/backed up on the cloud and was amazed because there were 30,000+ images. Of those there are maybe 24 that are outstanding and I believe that is true for all of us.
Thanks for pointing out the serious negatives of social media. The platforms are not optimal for positive interactions, hope, empathy or a serious appreciation of humanity.
Some wit way back when defined a critic as a legless man who teaches running. Vivian Maier stands on her own. I cannot afford her prints but I sure can enjoy, be inspired and learn from her works. Oh, BTW, you are absolutely right in all you say. I am old now, in my 80's, and if someone does not like what I shot, OK. If they do like it, great. But I shoot for myself not for legless men. I am not very good but I have a lot of fun and you know it is true, even a blind hog finds a root once in awhile.
Thanks John! I’m fortunate to have my wife to review and critique the pictures I take. She has been an excellent source of information to improve my attention to details.
Bravo, well said. Never ever get critiqued in anything you do in life. Your photography for some is excellent and for others is garbage. That’s life. Photograph for you. 6:30 exactly, you mature and self critique, better your own than others doing it. This video should be included in every photography classroom globally.
Hey John, small historical note but Maier was actually aware that her photography had some merit and had discussed getting it in front of folks. It didnt go anywhere but she wasnt quite so purely intrinsically motivated as the story that's been woven about her. Pedantic note but there you go. Re the critique thing, I learned very very very early to be careful whose critique I listen to. Being a good photographer doesnt make you good at giving advice. Being a professional photographer doesnt even guarantee you're a good photographer, you might be middling but a good business person. I think you can learn from idiots' feedback too but wow do you have to filter through it. I remember in grad school being told by the photo students I shared the lab with (I was in a totally unrelated field) that my prints sucked because I wasnt getting equal density in all of the zones. But like, I was inspired by Gibson and Moriyama and Sieff... Stopped showing my prints to them.
That's funny - I also uploaded about poor quality critiques recently. There are bad critiques, but then there are bad critics and it's good to know which is which! Great thoughts - I enjoy your videos!
Lately on threads when someone does their usual soapbox rant, I simply look at their linked instagram. 9 times out of 10 they're medicore as it gets and I dont remember their photos even 3 minutes later but they're always the ones screaming someone else is terrible . Gotta shrug
I watched that documentary yesterday, and also noticed the comment about Vivian Maier's work being limited. I was gobsmacked! I almost rewound it, to see if I was perhaps taking the words out of context and had misunderstood them, but my cat was on my lap, so I carried on watching 🙂 Taking that comment at face value, to call Vivian Maier's work "limited" just illustrates to me the folly of how the art world is structured. Obviously, museums must have some standards for acceptance, but to dismiss the work of someone so clearly talented as Vivian Maier is astounding. Joel Meyerowitz was very impressed with her work. That alone should say something. I couldn't agree more with your remarks encouraging hobby photographers to learn how to critique their own work. I am a hobbyist, and the best advice I ever received was to ask myself whether the image achieved what I was intending. This way of approaching it neatly sidesteps the big question that a lot of newer enthusiasts ask themselves - "Are my photos any good?" This is a difficult, if not impossible, question to answer, as it is entirely subjective. Who defines what is "good"? If instead, you have an idea of what you want to convey to the viewer, you have a better chance of effectively evaluating your work. You can simply say to yourself, "Does this image convey what I want it to?" It's a minefield out there - especially online. In the groups that are inhabited by a lot of beginners, many people don't have very developed photographic sensibilities, and will praise almost any image which displays heavy use of HDR, heavy saturation, or other such clumsy editing. On the other hand, as you mention, the groups that have a lot of professionals don't always fare much better, with overly harsh critiques from people who are very keen to remind everyone how long they have been doing this and are, in some cases, very attached to their own dogmas of what is "right" and acceptable. Your suggestion, for a photographer to learn how to critique their own work, is a great solution - and the best one, in my humble opinion. It takes time to develop that ability, but is far preferable to remaining reliant on the approval and opinions of others. Great video - thank you!
Thank you for this video. I recently joined and then left a 'Headshots' FB group because of how bitter and condescending the comments were, and none of them were even directed at me. It's truly terrible to deal with people with that mentality. Oh, and there are also always an idiot with 'But technically, this is not a headshot according to the definition blah blah blah'. Btw, what Vivian Maeir did was mind blowing, she dies and left behind 10s of boxes and unprocessed films - she didn't just shoot for herself, she also didn't even process and print tons and tons of them, which is mind blowing in and of itself
Strength shows in lifting up others, putting down others is just weak. I have the same in my field... some most probably never shot an arrow but tell me what I do wrong :D
My aunt won a silver medal in the special Olympics in the 60s (she was wheelchair bound). She was a straight bow. Just had to share. Sadly I was the most mediocre shooter in my family 😂
Great rant, have a new subscriber! I've been fed a few of your videos recently from youtube, all good, I'm just stubborn to subscribe, this and a video from 7 months ago, that I watched tonight made my mind up. Thanks, just for being extraordinarily 'ordinary'!
I couldn't agree more. There are two guys in particular who think they are the bee's-knees. They have a monthly segment on CZcams where they critique work that's sent in. Not only do I disagree with most of their picks, but they use derogatory terms to describe the shots they don't like. Now, if it was Annie Leibovitz or Steve McCurry, it would be one thing, but these two guys are average photographers at best. It ticks me off to think some poor up-and-coming photographer could get discouraged by their comments.
To define a photo as good or bad requires you not only evaluate the technical aspects of the photo, but more importantly, you must also understand the intended purpose that the photographer had for the photo. Many times, Vivian Maier as the perfect example, nobody knows the intended purpose except for the photographer.
Great video as usual. From one old white guy to another, the person making the comments about Vivian Meier may have been suffering from crainio-rectal syndrome.... you never know. As an aside, what classes do you teach and where can I find information about them?
In the days of film and square format cameras, like my Bronica there was no FB or Instagram we would show our work at the local camera clubs. Great Video as always John. bye the way just got my Godox X3 after ordering it 5 months ago, and I love it already.
Great vid...Love your channel.....as for those types of people who love to complain/critique, It's really simple. There's those who make beautiful photos, and those who critique others because of their insecurities. It doesn't matter what it is in this day and age. People just have to bitch, so they can feel better about themselves.....
I see a lot of beginning photographers, and I mean a lot, who produce spectacular images. They do so because they haven't been corrupted by the orthodox conventions. I tell them never let anyone who is a harsh critic tell you what to do. Ignore the trolls.
I ended up starting a FaceBook Group (The Photography Critique & Growth Guild) Just to try and get a solid group of folks who are willing to give an honest critique without belittling. I believe I can have blinders on and am appreciative when someone is willing to point out what they see in my photography. FYI Join if you like. LOL
And this is why your one-on-one intensive is worth its weight, because you come with opinions backed by experience and thru the assignments and dialogue make us on this side challenge us selves and become better in our own eyes and yours. Hopefully. 😄
So right - thank you. Learn what you can do then apply what you deem is best for your purpose / taste / idea / market. Also: Times change tastes over years and decades. Group f64 vs shallow DoF? Expose to the right vs get everything right in camera? Examples are so many ...
Composition is by far the most Subjective part of Photographer yet folks continually go out of their WAY to tell everyone what is or isn't a good photo critique. Half of folks will love the image and the Other half will hate it. So it's really does not matter in the end.
Everyone is an expert until……you realise they are not! Great post John and so true. I was always taught that art is subjective and if you don’t like what you see then don’t just criticise - look away!
I think it comes from mostly jealousy. With the technological advancements just in the last 5 years, it's easier than ever to learn photography. We didn't have to go through the trials and tribulations people like you did. I'm an old guy but started way late (2019) in photography. If I wouldn't have had mirrorless tech, I would most likely be far behind where I am today. Maybe the people that started with film and progressed through every iteration of cameras and lenses get a little upset that a new-to-photography person is able to cut the learning curve down to 1/4 or 1/3 the time to get the same results or better. Editing is also another huge improvement now. Or it could be gear envy as well. I've seen a certain generation of people (younger) also refuse to give any respect to the older pros too, so it can go both ways. I applaud anybody that started with film and still became a successful pro, whether it was for money or art or just themselves. Doesn't mean we have to like everything they all do, just respect that the photographer is doing what they love to do. Photography is art, and art is subjective.
Real talk when I was getting my art degree all of the classes I took had a critique even my intro to photography looking back on that time. I personally thought the critique was stupid because for me, we were a bunch of beginning people learning about photography and I personally judge we didn’t have enough experience to accurately critique each other for me even the instructor and that setting I didn’t think it was the greatest way to critique our work, basically it was a matter of we all sat around and said that’s cool. I like it. Yeah few technical questions were asked here and there, but to me it didn’t seem very structured and looking back. I thought it was a total waste of time.
To do critique requires that a photograph be judged within an accpted framework and whether it follows certain ' compositional rules. This is one of the most damaging aspects of doing a critique of a photograph as it stifles creativity. I am mainly a landscape/still life photographer and I have great admiration for Ansel Adams, but I also love the work of Faye Godwin, Raymond Moore and Robert Adams. Can I critique Robert Adams or Raymond Moore with the same criteria that I may apply to Ansel Adams? Never, its a fools game. If I don't like a photograph, manily my own, I just stop looking at it, or I delete the file or won't process the negative. Some technical aspects of a photograph, could be discussed with the photographer with an aim to improve their technical skills, but that is about it.
This is so true. One thing I learned very early on from when I was shooting my $18k 2.1mp Kodak DCS620 - never delete an image from the camera - you really don’t know what kind of gem you have until you see it on your computer! Mistakes are sometimes your best capture.
“Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach.” Those that can't do either criticize. Just something funny I heard once. But maybe a little bit of truth to it.
There is no such thing as a bad photographer. There are those that quit and those that continue to learn and improve. If being critiqued is uncomfortable, don't put your work out there for critique. Remember this: It is a critique of the image you submitted for that purpose. The "judge" most likely has no idea who you are or what your experience might be. The judge can only speculate on why you made the image but motive doesn't matter. Listen to what the critique says and then, if necessary, flush it if you don't agree. Not everyone likes everyone's art. Just ask any artist trying to make a living selling their art.
To play devil's advocate...I personally really appeciate it if some says 'that's sh#t about something Ive done. It makes me look very seriously at it and fairly often say to myself , yeah your right. I then step up my effort to improve. Doesn't mean I dont like what I've done and can't enjoy it because someone said something negative or unpleasant. Infact I feel that art, music and film are in steep decline at present and much of that is to do with the say something nice attitude. It is not toxic to say something negative...that is just social media talk. If someone is doing it to make you feel bad then that's nasty and anyone who does that should be pitied, their life must be miserable really.But if you put something out there to be seen, then appreciate and accept what others have to say. I am not a pro photographer, I am a critical care nurse...believe me there are far more things to worry about than someone hurting your feelings.
@@kaskoPhoto Thanks for the response...your post was very good by the way and I know many people will appreciate it. There is no room for downright nastiness
I have won and judged professional competitions and was asked to head the mentor program of a local ppa by other pros so think I have mastered the craft and have a clue what goes into a great image. But what I have seen is most folks aren't ready to hear ANYTHING but "good pic" or "great photo." When they get any other advice, they really didn't want it. Now, I rarely waste my time offering CONSTRUCTIVE critique. and chose to leave them fat, dumb and happy and not waste my time. "20 year pro" may only mean he has found people who don't have a clue to pay for his crap and his 20 years are one years experience 20 times. Critique your own work is pure bull shit. Cause they don't know what they don't know. If someone wants to improve their work, the best and fastest way isn't to buy more gear or make the same mistakes over and over , it's to shoot and get it critiqued by a competent photographer. Not merely "someone you trust" but someone who actually has mastered the craft and will give sound advice. Getting critiques on line is worth exactly what you pay for them. Mostly the blind leading the blind and as you rightly point out, many are keyboard jack asses. These days everyone thinks they are a photographer because their camera or cell phone automatically takes a sharp, well exposed image. It's like saying someone sitting at a keyboard hitting random keys is a novelist pumping out real literature. Most have no idea why they are taking the photo, what they are trying to communicate and the don't or even can't use the photographic tools to maximize that. As Ansel said, there is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy idea. I think they would love their own work more if they appreciated that they crafted a beautiful, impactful image rather than just more of the 1.7 billion crap photos pumped out every year. If someone wants to have more 'keepers" as they say, learn the craft, and if you want to deviate from basic standards intentionally and do so for a reason. And what kind of person would click off because you are an old white guy? That was a weird opening line. I confused your channel with F stoppers.
I know the video you are talking about where Vivian Maier was criticized. I losed complete respect for that person. Actually using that critic's perspective she could also be one of the greatest photographers ever because she didn't need anyone elses input.
Amateur critique is usually about like and dislike. Professional critique is based on educated analysis where the work is seen in context. Without context any critique will fail. So listen to the educated ones and ignore amateur critique ... 😊
Thanks for posting. I shoot for myself. If I like the shot, then I am happy. If family members like the shot, then I am ecstatic. Anybody else likes it, then I am in the bonus round with a cherry on top. But for the most part, my images don't leave my computer and sometimes they get printed. BTW, I feel Ansel Adams was way overrated. I think his images would have been much better if he had done a few "where is Waldo" images. :) A few months back, a youtuber was criticizing Vivian Maier's work because she did not develop her own negatives. Had to shake my head on that one.
Watch videos, movies and photographers you love. You can and will see issues with your own images or things you can improve. Try it, it’s really a fun part of this journey.
Saying that photography is limited, is akin to saying that any one person only has one subjective view … totally obvious! It’s pure white noise, in terms of criticism… useless
Sorry man but along with critiquing your own work i think it's important to look at other's work and critique it as well since you are building a visual vocabulary for yourself, you get to judge what you like and what you don't like and take from what mistakes or accomplishments others have and incorporate it into your own work. whether that critique stays with you or goes out into the world hardly matters and the only thing that matters is who you feel like needs or would welcome it. I assure you Vivien maier looked at other's works and critiqued (made judgments) on what worked and what she liked. Sure she did not feel like showcasing her work at the time but art isn't an insular practice and while she stuck to herself she surely studied contemporaries of her time. Do you think people going to your photography lectures don't need any of your guidance or knowledge? do you think one can grow to be an artist in a vacuum? if that's the case then your channel should close. I think people make judgements no matter the material they're given to fit their needs. people can be bad at critiquing too but that's part of learning and you should be allowed to make judgement just like you should be allowed to pursue any artform.
Thanks for your feedback. But maybe a disconnect with what I was saying. But some very valid points in either case. Thank you for putting your opinion out for everyone.. it’s important to get all point of view
I totally, totally, agree!
From the day I left school to the day that I retired, I was a working professional photographer, and just as you stated, professional work is what the client wants and not necessarily what you want.
After I retired, I tried out a local camera club as we call them in the UK. I didn't tell them that it used to be my job. I was criticised by the husband and wife team that were in charge of running it and took most of it on the chin, but when I didn't fight back, I noticed that I was being used as an example of what not to do if you wanted to be a "good photographer."
Eventually, I had had enough and decided to bring in my old company portfolio, displaying photographs that had been used by famous brands and had been seen by millions of people.
The result was very red faces, but as expected, no apology.
I was in a local Camera Club 50 years ago, it doesn't sound as if they have changed much!
"Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place then come down and shoot the survivors." - Ernest Hemingway.
Very well said and I cannot fathom how someone could say hang about the “merit” of someone else’s photos.
I’ve said before to you that I’m far from a pro and just a hobbyist - and as such, I have only one client and that is myself.
I watch your videos because they are entertaining, educational, and because they always make GOOD SENSE. And this video is one of the absolute best. Thanks for starting my day off right.
I appreciate that!
Some years ago, I photographed the railway line at Auschwitz Birkenau.
I posted the image to Flickr and was almost immediately met with the unrequested critique telling me "you should crop out the building at the end" - the actual Auschwitz entrance!
That was the point when I decided to ignore all future critique unless I asked for it.
Damn - yea that’s pretty much it in a nutshell. 😂
Hey John, I used to post to a popular M4/3rds site. One day I posted a pretty routine shot of a female friend of mine and her cool car. Well I got absolutely roasted in the comments section. Nothing about the quality or composition of the photograph just absolute vile comments about the model and her “character etc.” It’s as if everyone becomes an expert and all bets are off when it comes to criticism. I was surprised that the Admins allowed to nonsense to continue and in my mind it really lowered my opinion of that site in my eyes. I decided to delete the photo and pull the ‘chute on my participation in that particular community. I fully understand and value constructive criticism, but vitriol and being mean spirited do not belong. Great video and some really good points you have brought up. Cheers
The only critique I give a sh*t about is one I ask for.
And the number of times I've done that will probably remain at zero.
I absolutely do not care what anyone else thinks of my art.
I completely agree with you about most critiques. I've been through formal critiques many times, and the best approach is to reject the pseudo-intellectual crap, which seems to come with the territory, and extract the comments that make sense in that you can implement them to good effect. In the case of Vivian Maier, there are some things worth mentioning. We now know a lot about her life from the authoritative biography by Ann Marks (Vivian Maier Developed) and the prevailing myth that she worked in seclusion her entire life, photographing only for herself, which is precisely that: a myth. While that description probably applies to the latter part of her life, when she became beset more and more by mental illness, in her early years when she lived in New York, she actively pursued a professional photography career. The voluminous collection of her negatives contains attempts at professional photography, such as paparazzi photos of celebrities. She also shared her work with other professional photographers in New York.
Even with this, it is a fact that despite the exquisite work, she has not been collected to any great extent by major museums, nor are her images particularly sought out by galleries and private collectors. The reason for that has absolutely nothing to do with her being critiqued by some self-professed expert. It is because what museums, commercial galleries, and private collectors collect are prints. The final print, the object of value, has been ostensibly created by or under the artist's supervision. The problem with Vivian Maier is that there are few extant prints, and, having seen a few, most look like camera store prints, not anything she labored over in the darkroom. The prints produced now from her negatives were made by someone else long after she was gone. Since no one knows what Vivian Maier's prints would look like if she had made them, they become far less collectible.
I watched a video of two rather well known photographer/teachers and their comments on the images sent in and after about 15 minutes I decided they were intimidated by anyone that an ounce of style or creative ability. They were gatekeeping. The same thing happens in many camera clubs where there are several very good photographers that make comments about work by lesser experienced folks that sound like they are judging at Nuremberg Trials. Even Ansel Adams said that 12 outstanding images a year was a goal worth shooting for. I was looking back at my images that I have stored/backed up on the cloud and was amazed because there were 30,000+ images. Of those there are maybe 24 that are outstanding and I believe that is true for all of us.
It really is! Sure we can shoot great images at each shoot, but the real winners are few and far/ And that’s ok
Thanks for pointing out the serious negatives of social media. The platforms are not optimal for positive interactions, hope, empathy or a serious appreciation of humanity.
Some wit way back when defined a critic as a legless man who teaches running. Vivian Maier stands on her own. I cannot afford her prints but I sure can enjoy, be inspired and learn from her works. Oh, BTW, you are absolutely right in all you say. I am old now, in my 80's, and if someone does not like what I shot, OK. If they do like it, great. But I shoot for myself not for legless men. I am not very good but I have a lot of fun and you know it is true, even a blind hog finds a root once in awhile.
The journey and simple act of making images is a therapy in itself. And that’s what makes it worth while
Thanks John! I’m fortunate to have my wife to review and critique the pictures I take. She has been an excellent source of information to improve my attention to details.
Bravo, well said. Never ever get critiqued in anything you do in life. Your photography for some is excellent and for others is garbage. That’s life. Photograph for you. 6:30 exactly, you mature and self critique, better your own than others doing it. This video should be included in every photography classroom globally.
Hey John, small historical note but Maier was actually aware that her photography had some merit and had discussed getting it in front of folks. It didnt go anywhere but she wasnt quite so purely intrinsically motivated as the story that's been woven about her. Pedantic note but there you go. Re the critique thing, I learned very very very early to be careful whose critique I listen to. Being a good photographer doesnt make you good at giving advice. Being a professional photographer doesnt even guarantee you're a good photographer, you might be middling but a good business person. I think you can learn from idiots' feedback too but wow do you have to filter through it. I remember in grad school being told by the photo students I shared the lab with (I was in a totally unrelated field) that my prints sucked because I wasnt getting equal density in all of the zones. But like, I was inspired by Gibson and Moriyama and Sieff... Stopped showing my prints to them.
Thank you for the historical input (really appreciated) and for sharing. Love this channel for people like you
That's funny - I also uploaded about poor quality critiques recently. There are bad critiques, but then there are bad critics and it's good to know which is which! Great thoughts - I enjoy your videos!
Thank you. And you are on the money. Unfortunately the two go hand in hand way too often.
Lately on threads when someone does their usual soapbox rant, I simply look at their linked instagram. 9 times out of 10 they're medicore as it gets and I dont remember their photos even 3 minutes later but they're always the ones screaming someone else is terrible . Gotta shrug
You are so right
it's hard to find good photographers on youtube, could you give your recommendations on what you follow? Thanks!
I’ll definitely work on a list over the next week.
@@kaskoPhoto Great! That will help a lot, I'm looking forward to it!
I watched that documentary yesterday, and also noticed the comment about Vivian Maier's work being limited. I was gobsmacked! I almost rewound it, to see if I was perhaps taking the words out of context and had misunderstood them, but my cat was on my lap, so I carried on watching 🙂
Taking that comment at face value, to call Vivian Maier's work "limited" just illustrates to me the folly of how the art world is structured. Obviously, museums must have some standards for acceptance, but to dismiss the work of someone so clearly talented as Vivian Maier is astounding. Joel Meyerowitz was very impressed with her work. That alone should say something. I couldn't agree more with your remarks encouraging hobby photographers to learn how to critique their own work. I am a hobbyist, and the best advice I ever received was to ask myself whether the image achieved what I was intending. This way of approaching it neatly sidesteps the big question that a lot of newer enthusiasts ask themselves - "Are my photos any good?" This is a difficult, if not impossible, question to answer, as it is entirely subjective. Who defines what is "good"? If instead, you have an idea of what you want to convey to the viewer, you have a better chance of effectively evaluating your work. You can simply say to yourself, "Does this image convey what I want it to?"
It's a minefield out there - especially online. In the groups that are inhabited by a lot of beginners, many people don't have very developed photographic sensibilities, and will praise almost any image which displays heavy use of HDR, heavy saturation, or other such clumsy editing. On the other hand, as you mention, the groups that have a lot of professionals don't always fare much better, with overly harsh critiques from people who are very keen to remind everyone how long they have been doing this and are, in some cases, very attached to their own dogmas of what is "right" and acceptable. Your suggestion, for a photographer to learn how to critique their own work, is a great solution - and the best one, in my humble opinion. It takes time to develop that ability, but is far preferable to remaining reliant on the approval and opinions of others.
Great video - thank you!
Thank you for your take and for sharing. Really appreciate your thoughts and input.
As a 30+ years pro, who now teaches and shoots personal, due to health issues. Well said!
Thank you. Hope things look up with your health soon
Thank you for this video. I recently joined and then left a 'Headshots' FB group because of how bitter and condescending the comments were, and none of them were even directed at me. It's truly terrible to deal with people with that mentality. Oh, and there are also always an idiot with 'But technically, this is not a headshot according to the definition blah blah blah'. Btw, what Vivian Maeir did was mind blowing, she dies and left behind 10s of boxes and unprocessed films - she didn't just shoot for herself, she also didn't even process and print tons and tons of them, which is mind blowing in and of itself
That’s the catch and release method. It really is therapeutic just doing what you love
Strength shows in lifting up others, putting down others is just weak. I have the same in my field... some most probably never shot an arrow but tell me what I do wrong :D
My aunt won a silver medal in the special Olympics in the 60s (she was wheelchair bound). She was a straight bow. Just had to share. Sadly I was the most mediocre shooter in my family 😂
@@kaskoPhoto some are better with a camera, others with a bow :D
Great rant, have a new subscriber! I've been fed a few of your videos recently from youtube, all good, I'm just stubborn to subscribe, this and a video from 7 months ago, that I watched tonight made my mind up. Thanks, just for being extraordinarily 'ordinary'!
I couldn't agree more. There are two guys in particular who think they are the bee's-knees. They have a monthly segment on CZcams where they critique work that's sent in. Not only do I disagree with most of their picks, but they use derogatory terms to describe the shots they don't like. Now, if it was Annie Leibovitz or Steve McCurry, it would be one thing, but these two guys are average photographers at best. It ticks me off to think some poor up-and-coming photographer could get discouraged by their comments.
I’ll play dumb but 100% agree.
To define a photo as good or bad requires you not only evaluate the technical aspects of the photo, but more importantly, you must also understand the intended purpose that the photographer had for the photo. Many times, Vivian Maier as the perfect example, nobody knows the intended purpose except for the photographer.
Wonderful. Thank you.
I agree with you 100%. Glad I found you. Subscribed.
Another video gratefully received. You’re a great asset to all us “photographers” out here.
Awe thank you
Great video as usual. From one old white guy to another, the person making the comments about Vivian Meier may have been suffering from crainio-rectal syndrome.... you never know. As an aside, what classes do you teach and where can I find information about them?
In the days of film and square format cameras, like my Bronica there was no FB or Instagram we would show our work at the local camera clubs. Great Video as always John. bye the way just got my Godox X3 after ordering it 5 months ago, and I love it already.
Oh wow, that was a popular item! Hopefully they take care of the firmware delivery - but out of the box it’s been ok so far.
Great vid...Love your channel.....as for those types of people who love to complain/critique, It's really simple. There's those who make beautiful photos, and those who critique others because of their insecurities. It doesn't matter what it is in this day and age. People just have to bitch, so they can feel better about themselves.....
The Jerry Springer show - watch it and anyone can feel great about themselves
Absolutely true! 👍
I see a lot of beginning photographers, and I mean a lot, who produce spectacular images. They do so because they haven't been corrupted by the orthodox conventions. I tell them never let anyone who is a harsh critic tell you what to do. Ignore the trolls.
It’s that pure uncluttered artistic brain at work!!
I ended up starting a FaceBook Group (The Photography Critique & Growth Guild) Just to try and get a solid group of folks who are willing to give an honest critique without belittling. I believe I can have blinders on and am appreciative when someone is willing to point out what they see in my photography. FYI Join if you like. LOL
And this is why your one-on-one intensive is worth its weight, because you come with opinions backed by experience and thru the assignments and dialogue make us on this side challenge us selves and become better in our own eyes and yours. Hopefully. 😄
So right - thank you. Learn what you can do then apply what you deem is best for your purpose / taste / idea / market. Also: Times change tastes over years and decades. Group f64 vs shallow DoF? Expose to the right vs get everything right in camera? Examples are so many ...
Very true.
The standard for my critique of another's photograph is whether I'd be glad to have my name publicized as the person who took that picture.
Composition is by far the most Subjective part of Photographer yet folks continually go out of their WAY to tell everyone what is or isn't a good photo critique. Half of folks will love the image and the Other half will hate it. So it's really does not matter in the end.
You and your client are always the only ones that matter
Nicely done with Victoria and the Leica lens!
Thank You!
Everyone is an expert until……you realise they are not! Great post John and so true. I was always taught that art is subjective and if you don’t like what you see then don’t just criticise - look away!
The phrase that sticks in my head when I look at this 60 year old body in a mirror. LOOK AWAY - for gods sake look away!
@@kaskoPhotoHow do you think I feel when I realise I am looking at 70! Lol
I think it comes from mostly jealousy. With the technological advancements just in the last 5 years, it's easier than ever to learn photography. We didn't have to go through the trials and tribulations people like you did. I'm an old guy but started way late (2019) in photography. If I wouldn't have had mirrorless tech, I would most likely be far behind where I am today. Maybe the people that started with film and progressed through every iteration of cameras and lenses get a little upset that a new-to-photography person is able to cut the learning curve down to 1/4 or 1/3 the time to get the same results or better. Editing is also another huge improvement now. Or it could be gear envy as well. I've seen a certain generation of people (younger) also refuse to give any respect to the older pros too, so it can go both ways. I applaud anybody that started with film and still became a successful pro, whether it was for money or art or just themselves. Doesn't mean we have to like everything they all do, just respect that the photographer is doing what they love to do. Photography is art, and art is subjective.
Well said and some very good points. Thank you
Real talk when I was getting my art degree all of the classes I took had a critique even my intro to photography looking back on that time. I personally thought the critique was stupid because for me, we were a bunch of beginning people learning about photography and I personally judge we didn’t have enough experience to accurately critique each other for me even the instructor and that setting I didn’t think it was the greatest way to critique our work, basically it was a matter of we all sat around and said that’s cool. I like it. Yeah few technical questions were asked here and there, but to me it didn’t seem very structured and looking back. I thought it was a total waste of time.
To do critique requires that a photograph be judged within an accpted framework and whether it follows certain ' compositional rules. This is one of the most damaging aspects of doing a critique of a photograph as it stifles creativity. I am mainly a landscape/still life photographer and I have great admiration for Ansel Adams, but I also love the work of Faye Godwin, Raymond Moore and Robert Adams. Can I critique Robert Adams or Raymond Moore with the same criteria that I may apply to Ansel Adams? Never, its a fools game. If I don't like a photograph, manily my own, I just stop looking at it, or I delete the file or won't process the negative. Some technical aspects of a photograph, could be discussed with the photographer with an aim to improve their technical skills, but that is about it.
Very true. But archive, don’t delete! You will be surprised looking back over the years to find what wasn’t right then may be a killer image today
Some times the mistakes in a photo might be your best image. Keep your joy and ignore the noise. Thanks for sharing .
This is so true. One thing I learned very early on from when I was shooting my $18k 2.1mp Kodak DCS620 - never delete an image from the camera - you really don’t know what kind of gem you have until you see it on your computer! Mistakes are sometimes your best capture.
Thanks, great video!
If I like a photo I had taken, it's a good photo. Period.
“Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach.” Those that can't do either criticize. Just something funny I heard once. But maybe a little bit of truth to it.
Good wisdom!
There is no such thing as a bad photographer. There are those that quit and those that continue to learn and improve. If being critiqued is uncomfortable, don't put your work out there for critique. Remember this: It is a critique of the image you submitted for that purpose. The "judge" most likely has no idea who you are or what your experience might be. The judge can only speculate on why you made the image but motive doesn't matter. Listen to what the critique says and then, if necessary, flush it if you don't agree. Not everyone likes everyone's art. Just ask any artist trying to make a living selling their art.
So glad I found your channel
It’s a great community here- we are all glad you found us to
To play devil's advocate...I personally really appeciate it if some says 'that's sh#t about something Ive done. It makes me look very seriously at it and fairly often say to myself , yeah your right. I then step up my effort to improve. Doesn't mean I dont like what I've done and can't enjoy it because someone said something negative or unpleasant. Infact I feel that art, music and film are in steep decline at present and much of that is to do with the say something nice attitude. It is not toxic to say something negative...that is just social media talk. If someone is doing it to make you feel bad then that's nasty and anyone who does that should be pitied, their life must be miserable really.But if you put something out there to be seen, then appreciate and accept what others have to say. I am not a pro photographer, I am a critical care nurse...believe me there are far more things to worry about than someone hurting your feelings.
And I appreciate you adding your opinion. It’s important to hear different points of view and I thank you for sharing it here.
@@kaskoPhoto Thanks for the response...your post was very good by the way and I know many people will appreciate it. There is no room for downright nastiness
I have won and judged professional competitions and was asked to head the mentor program of a local ppa by other pros so think I have mastered the craft and have a clue what goes into a great image. But what I have seen is most folks aren't ready to hear ANYTHING but "good pic" or "great photo." When they get any other advice, they really didn't want it. Now, I rarely waste my time offering CONSTRUCTIVE critique. and chose to leave them fat, dumb and happy and not waste my time. "20 year pro" may only mean he has found people who don't have a clue to pay for his crap and his 20 years are one years experience 20 times. Critique your own work is pure bull shit. Cause they don't know what they don't know. If someone wants to improve their work, the best and fastest way isn't to buy more gear or make the same mistakes over and over , it's to shoot and get it critiqued by a competent photographer. Not merely "someone you trust" but someone who actually has mastered the craft and will give sound advice. Getting critiques on line is worth exactly what you pay for them. Mostly the blind leading the blind and as you rightly point out, many are keyboard jack asses. These days everyone thinks they are a photographer because their camera or cell phone automatically takes a sharp, well exposed image. It's like saying someone sitting at a keyboard hitting random keys is a novelist pumping out real literature. Most have no idea why they are taking the photo, what they are trying to communicate and the don't or even can't use the photographic tools to maximize that. As Ansel said, there is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy idea. I think they would love their own work more if they appreciated that they crafted a beautiful, impactful image rather than just more of the 1.7 billion crap photos pumped out every year. If someone wants to have more 'keepers" as they say, learn the craft, and if you want to deviate from basic standards intentionally and do so for a reason. And what kind of person would click off because you are an old white guy? That was a weird opening line. I confused your channel with F stoppers.
I know the video you are talking about where Vivian Maier was criticized. I losed complete respect for that person. Actually using that critic's perspective she could also be one of the greatest photographers ever because she didn't need anyone elses input.
Agreed. Her work is just pure to me. No BS, just a look through her eyes.
Bravo.
As some youtubers also are !
Amateur critique is usually about like and dislike. Professional critique is based on educated analysis where the work is seen in context. Without context any critique will fail. So listen to the educated ones and ignore amateur critique ... 😊
old white guy, you said? nahh you are more like the humble and wise grandpa that everyone wants in their live! thanks for sharing the video!
The only critic that counts for a pro, is the customer.
Exactly
Thanks for posting. I shoot for myself. If I like the shot, then I am happy. If family members like the shot, then I am ecstatic. Anybody else likes it, then I am in the bonus round with a cherry on top. But for the most part, my images don't leave my computer and sometimes they get printed. BTW, I feel Ansel Adams was way overrated. I think his images would have been much better if he had done a few "where is Waldo" images. :) A few months back, a youtuber was criticizing Vivian Maier's work because she did not develop her own negatives. Had to shake my head on that one.
You say critique your own work but “ you don’t know what you don’t know”
Watch videos, movies and photographers you love. You can and will see issues with your own images or things you can improve. Try it, it’s really a fun part of this journey.
@@kaskoPhotoExactly.
Saying that photography is limited, is akin to saying that any one person only has one subjective view … totally obvious! It’s pure white noise, in terms of criticism… useless
Sorry man but along with critiquing your own work i think it's important to look at other's work and critique it as well since you are building a visual vocabulary for yourself, you get to judge what you like and what you don't like and take from what mistakes or accomplishments others have and incorporate it into your own work. whether that critique stays with you or goes out into the world hardly matters and the only thing that matters is who you feel like needs or would welcome it. I assure you Vivien maier looked at other's works and critiqued (made judgments) on what worked and what she liked. Sure she did not feel like showcasing her work at the time but art isn't an insular practice and while she stuck to herself she surely studied contemporaries of her time. Do you think people going to your photography lectures don't need any of your guidance or knowledge? do you think one can grow to be an artist in a vacuum? if that's the case then your channel should close. I think people make judgements no matter the material they're given to fit their needs. people can be bad at critiquing too but that's part of learning and you should be allowed to make judgement just like you should be allowed to pursue any artform.
Thanks for your feedback. But maybe a disconnect with what I was saying. But some very valid points in either case. Thank you for putting your opinion out for everyone.. it’s important to get all point of view