Thank you for plugging my book! A few things: Ashley, Elliott’s half sister, is not my main source. I barely got anything from her, she doesn’t want to talk about her brother’s death. My main source is someone very very close to Elliott, but on the other side of the family, living in Portland.
This is a very interesting case. I forwarded the link for your book to my oldest son, who was a massive Elliott Smith fan (and Kurt Cobaine, musicians like them) Thank you so much for contributing to the conversation.
I Just came from your channel! Thank you for continuing to research and bring awareness. Brings me peace knowing there are people out there who haven't forgiven or forgotten ❤
Supposedly he tried. There’s a story abt him taking $2500 worth of heroin in a day and he said something about it “not working”. Not trying to support one conclusion or the other I’m just saying what I know.
This all hits very close to home. I was with Elliott a few nights before he died. I was also hired by Rivers Cuomo to drive Chiba around Los Angles the week after he died to visit lawyers and “tie up loose ends”. I was told she would be laying down in the backseat and I was told to not tell anyone. By that time I was starting to get my suspicions that something wasnt right and backed out. Elliott was on anti-depressants and it was affecting his speech and hand movements so that may have been why he was off his meds. Not convinced that Jennifer put the knife in him, but she may as well have. Also Valerie was no angel and Elliott was at his worst when he was with her. I literally had to pick him up off the street in front of the El Rey and take him to their car.
Why was Valerie "no angel"? Because Elliott was heavily addicted to heroin and crack while he was with her? All I've read was that Valerie didn't do drugs and she did everything she could to help Elliott and get him clean.
I have a personal to confirm at least anecdotally that it’s possible of anti depressants greatly affecting one’s speech and hand eye coordination. As teenagers one of us got ahold of a specific anti depressant that I came to believe shouldn’t be prescribed to ANYONE because of how much of a negative effect it would cause in literally every one I saw take it. It ranged from one friend basically temporarily losing the ability to use complete sentences to the point they started crying thinking they were going to be permanently dumb. To others simply receding within because all other faculties either had been diminished or from fear of hearing themselves in such a state. All became a little dumber to be blatant. Most notable in my memory is of one friend who is a talented guitarist. After taking it (mind you we all took it by snorting it which definitely accounted for the extreme exaggerated effects but I’ve seen similar reactions when taken orally) his hands started to become numb due to the vastro constriction which was common. By the time he got home it was hitting him pretty hard and he picked up the guitar to play. Like a complete beginner is what he looked like. Flashes of his abilities were there but only as if it was by accident not a brief glimpse of true ability. Guy broke down. Never seen him like that but it was just me and his girlfriend with him. I wasn’t necessairly close enough for him to do that willingly in front of me but you could tell he couldn’t hold it in. Dude thought he would never be able to play again. Ever. He was seriously considering suicide as a result of that belief and his negative emotions being amplified by the drug. Luckily we convinced him it was only temporary but when your in that mindset every second is a lifetime. And when your mindset is altered from its normal state anything is possible and nothing is achievable. Days later he told us how he fully convinced himself of spending the rest of his life in some sort of flowers for Algernon situation destined for things only to get worse. Definitely the dumbest drug anyone of them ever took and surprisingly one of the more legal options which still boggles my mind to this day. So yeah. You mentioning the fact he was on anti depressants makes perfect sense when you consider how bad some of his performances in the last year of his life were and his constant claims of not actually being on drugs anymore despite it looking to the contrary on stage. I can’t believe it didn’t click for me before but now it finally makes sense cause although I never knew the guy but he never claimed to be sober before actually getting sober and it just doesn’t feel like he’d lie about that and yet I would watch his set and could only attribute it to heavy drug use rather than extreme withdrawals. Makes sense now.
Notice on the post-mortem, the coroner noted on the second stab wound, a clinical history of "pericardial tamponade". I had to look that up--the medical definition is: "Cardiac tamponade - which is sometimes called pericardial tamponade - happens when the pericardium fills with fluid (especially blood). Because the fluid has nowhere to go, your heart runs out of room and can't expand enough to fill effectively." So, the knife penetrated the pericardial lining of the heart, causing the space between the lining and the heart itself to fill with blood, making it impossible for the heart to fully inflate with each heartbeat. Elliott may have run but he wouldn't have made it far for sure, after massive blood loss and his heart not being able to beat at all. Anyway, I agree with Alyson, this doesn't make sense as a suicide.
Since it says clinical history, it would seem to be something he had in the past. It would not be called clinical history if it was from the event that killed him. It would say evidence of , or something similar.
Just finishing up watching, another great episode! I did want to mention that the Oswald mock trial w/Bugliosi and Spence is on CZcams. The whole thing.
If suicide, you'd really have to hate someone to put them in an incriminating position like that, not to mention the sheer horror. If homicide, you'd really have to hate someone to stab them like that. We can imagine the threat of abandonment could induce this hatred in chiba I just wonder what could cause that kind of hatred in Smith.
A true genius of the art form. Listen to the playing and singing of Angeles and it’s so complex yet simple and honest and deep. Elliott Smith was a brilliant artist. His songs hit hard and cut deep. I miss him.
We lost a generational talent when he passed. Learning his songs on guitar is a fast track to understanding complex chord shapes and structures, the dude was truly a prodigy when it came to writing music. His lyrical ability was top notch as well. I found him during a point in my life when I was going through darkness and a bad breakup, he sings resonated deeper than any of artist I’ve ever listened to. He had a way of stripping away the layers and getting directly into your soul.
Mark mentioned Weezer at 28:47 and I burst out singing, “Say it ain’t sooooo, my loooove is life takerrrr,” and then realized the relevance to the story the pair was discussing.
I do whole heartedly believe smith was probably a cutter at some point in his life. I’m a male and I was. And a lot of males who listen to this darker music like smiths or bright eyes etc. also have at some point in their life. That doesn’t mean he stabbed himself in the chest at noon on a Friday after getting clean.
I was waiting for someone to take a deep dive into Smith's death. It's pretty clear from the medical examiner that the girlfriend could have easily been culpable, however the fact he had a history of suicidal ideation and grandiose measures of carrying it out--I.E. leaping off of a cliff--leaves the door of reasonable doubt wide open. Solving it will require new evidence or a confession, I'm afraid. I have not watched the video yet, but I'm sure you get into this. Thanks and don't give up, Smith was too great a loss to have been hastily grazed over and forgotten.
The cliff episode was not a suicide attempt: he didn’t even know there was a cliff there, he was drunk and upset and he started running in the dark. I don’t believe there was any real suicide attempt besides his drug abuse. Sure Elliott talked about suicide but his behavior was more ‘let’s see what happens’ when taking large amount of drugs. Stabbing yourself in the chest twice without any hesitation marks, through clothing and through the sternum is the opposite of this. It requires an extreme amount of strength and skill to kill yourself this way.
Also Abigail Stanton is not a therapist, she is a psychiatrist, someone prescribing meds. I talked to one of her ex patients and she doesn’t even talk much, she just writes prescriptions (this person was not very happy about her). As for the alleged conversation she had with Elliott’s father, it’s very fishy. Why? Because it was reported by Liam Gowing who wrote an article for Spin and who never talked to Elliott’s father. Since a psychiatrist should never talk about a patient, I don’t think Gowing talked to Stanton either. So this should come from Chiba herself who talked to Gowing at great length. That’s why I take it with a grain of salt to say the least.
The autopsy certainly seems to indicate murder. No one stabs themself in the heart twice, the shock of it all would prevent that. Also the defensive wounds.....you don't get those with suicide. Hard to believe they didn't realize she left the country in an apparent attempt to save herself. It certainly is suspicious anyway. I think Mark is right, it at least deserves a grand jury.
It can’t really be overstated just how wildly incompetent and/or lazy, the first responding officers were. To show up to a scene which would’ve absolutely looked like a homicide scene, and simply take the let’s be honest, a far fetched explanation for the bloody scene, would be outlandish. Once this initial massive failure took place, from a legal standpoint this case was over, and no DA on earth would’ve touched it. It’s also important to note, once this initial failure by PD took place, (catastrophic for a prosecution) it would have been far more preferable for them to kind of “stick with the narrative” to save face and put this thing to bed as quickly and quietly as possible, rather than come right out and “fall on their sword” and admit to gross incompetence. (Not necessarily nefarious, just business) Fact of the matter is, unless competently handled from initial contact, barring a witness and or confession, this would’ve been an iffy case at best! From a case building/prosecution standpoint, even well handled this would have been a low percentage case. Alyson and I discussed this aspect in some detail.
High school/college boyfriend was a huge Elliott Smith fan and I remember him telling me back in the day about how the guy committed suicide by stabbing himself in the heart (so looking back this would have been within the first few months after Smith's death). I just remember thinking how stupid, dramatic, and overall **emo** that seemed but that it made sense given my perception/opinion of his music at the time (i.e., dramatic and emo). Sort of interesting though that they used "Needle in the Hay" for the scene of Ritchie's suicide attempt in the Royal Tenenbaums.
This is one of those cases that is going to haunt me for years. Ive been a fan of Elliot for a while, and i deliberately avoided looking into his death. Partially because i wasnt ready to 'lose' him in my mind, and partially because i didnt think Elliot would have ever wanted his death to be the focus of his life. I even put off watching Heaven Adores You for as long as i could because i really do just adore his music, his art, his living legacy and i knew that once his discourse about his death started, that id be obsessed with finding out the 'why' behind it. There is so much about this thats off. The LAPD are sketchy as hell. The amount of crime that they have let people away with or actively participated in is insane. Elliot Smith was a true legend and his death deserves to be investigated properly and thoroughly. It doesnt matter if in the end they get no convictions, they should have been persuing it anyway. I highly recommend Alyson's book, im reading it right now. Not only does she lay out all the data but she paints a vivid picture of life at that time. She puts it into context and includes so many different sources. It's fascinating and impressive that someone has put so much time and effort into collecting all the relevant information and sifting through it to give it to us.
Wow, I had never heard any of this. Hopefully the truth will prevail and if his GF was responsible, she will be brought to justice. I lived in Seattle from 2000-2017 and all I know is Elliott's music: haunting delicate thunderous macro chasms. No matter what happened, his art endures and God is the ultimate judge.
Some valid information shared, thank you! Maybe a little too much giggling going down though ? Let's respect Elliott's memory, what ever happened, his family friends and fans are still hurting...
Thanks for doing this story. I used to see him around Sunset Junction when I worked in the area. Never have believed it was a suicide. Love your channel.
"Chiba", ironically is the Mexican slang word for HEROIN; not sure if you mentioned that. You can't make this stuff up! Love the channel, been referring it to many friends. I've been reading, researching JFK for years and Mark is almost encyclopedic on the matter.
@IANDTHELANR1 quite possible, although the v anb b sound are almost interchangeable in Spanish. I just thought that was an interesting side note considering that she was so into opioids. Shoot, she may have changed her name to that, she was in the music biz, they use stage names.
My favorite musical artist without a close 2nd. so beautifully honest. He was still on the upside, imho basement on a hill was easily his best album. There’s a reason people don’t kill themselves that way, it always seemed almost impossible to me. i always assumed she was related to the chief of police or prosecutor or something
Btw, if you didn’t know they have an acoustic version of basement on a hill. It’s hauntingly great. Can hear the bros in the background cheer him on after some of the songs.
thanks for the info i’ll definitely check that out. I would listen to elliot and alice n chains because i’ve spent years stuck in addiction and have suffered horribly with mental illness including extremely bad ocd and years of the hopeless type of depression which anyone who has had the misfortune to experience will understand when i say that it becomes immediately obvious that this is the depression that drives one to suicide and i can guarantee anyone who says suicide is an act of selfishness has been blessed enough to never experience that state for even one minute. I’m just making this comment because if anyone is reading this and is living in the depths of solitude and pain you have a fucking choice and it’s going to determine the rest of your life in unimaginable ways. This is honestly the most important advise you ever get. in my experience the most heartbreaking painful experiences in life are in actuality the most beautiful gifts. I know it’s counterintuitive but please trust me , make a fucking rule for yourself and never break it. Don’t ever allow yourself to even take a couple steps down that road of victim hood. That road leads to fucking hell. In every painful event that life throws at you if you take the time you’ll always find a path of growth which is exponentially faster because of the suffering. You can accomplish 15 years of inner growth in a couple months , the speed of the growth seemed to me to be directly proportionate to the level of suffering. I lived this truth for over a decade and im not exaggerating at all. There is only one band that lifted me out of hell and that is Blind Melon. If you can get to listen to them live at woodstock in 98 or 94 or something, watch that performance and try to feel sad lol Just be a better person everyday than you were the day before through the suffering and sadness and eventually your outside life will reflect the kind beautiful person you’ve become on the inside. God bless
talking about huxley & lewis dieing on jfk assassination, reminds me of farrah fawcett dieing same day as michael jackson & even oscars didn't show her in their tribute. not sure if emmys showed her in their tribute. funny about timing
Thank you for this!! 😢 Haven't finished this yet, but has anyone ever talked to River about this lady!? Ick, most people counciling others are effed up themselves, big time! I have a sister that is beyond messed up. Unable to be alone, uses any guy that can materialisticly pacify her, until they can't and she ruins their credit and moves on. Super low self-esteem, material stuff brings comfort and can't EVER be on her own but thanks to Phoenix University she can mess with anyone's head. Totally and beyond scary!!! 😬
[I remember when I first read the news of his passing; I was SO looking forward to FROM A BASEMENT ON THE HILL after reading his intentions for that album: he wanted it to be a double record modeled after the WHITE ALBUM. So sad. So many inconsistencies with Chiba's story. Eerily reminiscent of Kurtd's scenario.]
First I want to say, thank you for this. Second the man on the right ( not saying nothing bad to anyone else ) but he's a great thinker So many great points about Chiba and well informed Keep this alive and let's get justice for Elliott
Who were the first responders ? One of them must remember the blood splatter- The drummer for modest mouse certainly knows - as he cleaned it up - He ought to be questioned
@@AmericasUntoldStoriesI bet there were cigarette burns in the sheets. I know you don't take request and I understand that but you can't let this story go unheard to everyone. I mean you can but please don't Thank you both for the great videos.
I feel like Elliott was way too timid to stab himself like that. I can see some ironic fascination with hara kiri, but in reality he was too delicate for that. If you've watched him play piano, the way he uses his hands, there's a reverence and respect for his own movement that stabbing yourself in the chest completely contradicts.
@@degengam2781how was he violent? I've heard stories of him cutting and burning himself but that doesn't mean that it suddenly makes it true that he stabbed himself in the heart. The only other times I've read about him being violent were when he would get into fights while defending innocent people or friends who were getting harassed near him
@@degengam2781 I've heard that he had some run ins with the police but I never knew the context about what it was for so I never assumed it was violence. What do you know about it? I'm genuinely curious. I've actually tried finding more information about that time in his life but it's hard to find info online.
@@qweenofhertz “I lived in a series of suburbs: DeSoto, Duncanville, Cedar Hill. My stepdad was into places with bigger and bigger yards, and we kept moving farther and farther away from people. I remember there were a lot of white folks and there wasn’t much money. I was kind of a violent little person-I was not a very happy kid-and the kids at my school were violent little monsters too. So every couple of weeks there was somebody new to fight. I only won a couple in my whole life, but I was one of those kids who just wouldn’t throw in the towel, no matter how badly I was getting beat. It was like, “Yeah, you’re gonna kick my butt, but I’m gonna try to hurt you before you do.” More than anything, fighting on the school grounds just landed me in the principal’s office, and back then they would spank you with a big wooden paddle that had holes drilled into it. I don’t know if they do that anymore, but it was better when I moved to Portland. Nobody gets into fights in Portland.”
I'm not from USA, discovered his music around 2006, and been a fan from the first listen. Never really looked up his cause of death thinking it was a suicide. So saddening to know that 99.5% possibility it was actually murder.
Many thanks for the series about Elliott Smith! I'd never given much thought to his death, but these videos bring up interesting reasons to doubt that he died by suicide. These shows original thinking.
Mark, I don't read a ton but when I do read it's about Manson, JFK, Mob, or true crime. I'm stunned about what Tom had to say about Bugliosi but not shocked.
Noticed that the toxicology says mirtazapine, that drug causes rage, I know that from personal experience and if you research you will find anger and rage a side effect of mirtazapine.
@@AmericasUntoldStories absolutely! I'm an ICU nurse. I'm covered in blood for wounds way less traumatic. I swear if I misspell a word on an essay I'll get jail time. How do people get away with this crap?
I think it's too difficult because you only have her word, Elliott was known to have had many problems and with his lyrics, it's going to be too easy to bring reasonable doubt. Apart from all of that, I don't know what they're waiting for.
i saw a question about how common stabbing suicides are in the live chat, and i wanted to say its not that common really. its weird because if someone were to die in such a manner, there would be some sort of hesitation mark where he would have hesitated. no matter how hard you'll try, you'd still struggle because your brain is wired to not stab yourself (of course). but with his autopsy there was none. i see a lot of kurt cobains similarities in this case. they were both ruled as a suicide, but seem to suspicious so actually BE a suicide. i feel as though she had framed him for fame, similarly to Courtney love.
That you cannot see individuals in a couple independently is absolutely not true. In fact, when you can retain objectivity, it’s very effective, even facilitates the couples therapy… However, if you can’t retain objectivity… then don’t do it. And… most therapists need therapy. That’s what can make a therapist good… they’ve worked and/or are working through the issues they’re most effective helping with. More than once, I have seen therapy be hijacked when they let themselves be influenced by one member of the couple who arranged an individual session. These therapists had no knowledge of, nor recognition of the sociopathic narcissist who hijacks couples counseling this way. In which case the therapist makes things worse whether counseling is hijacked by the covert abuser or not. Dr George Simon is an expert on this… he would catch on to this type of abuser quickly… as do I.
Elliot never hid who he was. His depression was always in his music but since we kept buying it, we kept fueling it so it is us who is to blame for egging him on.
I was a caseworker and worked with mentally ill individuals. People always need to blame others. The scenario of his death you presented is very plausible. He most likely killed himself. It’s what they do. They often act out and then punish the real victims, the people around them. Genius has nothing to do with suicide.
When you listen to his music, he never hid who he was because today when I was listening to his last album, a weird feeling overcame me as if I wasn't suppose to be listening to it and that's when it hit me hard that Smith really did kill himself because that's where his music was leading himself to.
[I stopped listening when the guy on the right said, "...Elliott wasn't as sharp as that Weezer guy so he was easily taken down." If someone is building a case, this guy is not helping. So much assumption/presumption with the info he shares. The facts of the case are quite enough without turning it into character assassination. Chiba proved herself guilty already, just based on her haphazard statements and her actions that day.]
Hey schmuck, the facts of the case are highly in dispute. No is building a case. Rivers Cuomo was her former lover. He paid for her escape ticket to Hong Kong. Elliott was like a vegetable at the end. Very weak. Very vulnerable. Chiba has NOT proven herself guilt already. What a jackass. From the guy on the right. Asshole.
Makes no sense that a person would repeatedly stab themselves in the chest.clearly I can invasion her stabbing him and chasing him around but I wasn't there but her character is highly in question.
Oh yeah, this is definitely one I'm sharing with my sons. We have different tastes in entertainment, but we all love music, and I know they both loved Elliott Smith, the oldest especially since he played the guitar and did a lot Elliott songs. Neither one thought his death was suicide.
Thank you for plugging my book! A few things: Ashley, Elliott’s half sister, is not my main source. I barely got anything from her, she doesn’t want to talk about her brother’s death. My main source is someone very very close to Elliott, but on the other side of the family, living in Portland.
This is a very interesting case. I forwarded the link for your book to my oldest son, who was a massive Elliott Smith fan (and Kurt Cobaine, musicians like them) Thank you so much for contributing to the conversation.
Love the book!
@@flakebelly thank you 😊
@@chadpenner5059 I guess he was a very talented guy with a guitar and something to say
I Just came from your channel! Thank you for continuing to research and bring awareness.
Brings me peace knowing there are people out there who haven't forgiven or forgotten ❤
A junkie doesn't commit suicide by stabbing themselves in the chest....they OD. Very, very good point
Supposedly he tried. There’s a story abt him taking $2500 worth of heroin in a day and he said something about it “not working”. Not trying to support one conclusion or the other I’m just saying what I know.
This all hits very close to home. I was with Elliott a few nights before he died. I was also hired by Rivers Cuomo to drive Chiba around Los Angles the week after he died to visit lawyers and “tie up loose ends”. I was told she would be laying down in the backseat and I was told to not tell anyone. By that time I was starting to get my suspicions that something wasnt right and backed out. Elliott was on anti-depressants and it was affecting his speech and hand movements so that may have been why he was off his meds. Not convinced that Jennifer put the knife in him, but she may as well have. Also Valerie was no angel and Elliott was at his worst when he was with her. I literally had to pick him up off the street in front of the El Rey and take him to their car.
Tell me more about
Don’t pick on rivers .
Why was Valerie "no angel"? Because Elliott was heavily addicted to heroin and crack while he was with her? All I've read was that Valerie didn't do drugs and she did everything she could to help Elliott and get him clean.
I have a personal to confirm at least anecdotally that it’s possible of anti depressants greatly affecting one’s speech and hand eye coordination. As teenagers one of us got ahold of a specific anti depressant that I came to believe shouldn’t be prescribed to ANYONE because of how much of a negative effect it would cause in literally every one I saw take it. It ranged from one friend basically temporarily losing the ability to use complete sentences to the point they started crying thinking they were going to be permanently dumb. To others simply receding within because all other faculties either had been diminished or from fear of hearing themselves in such a state. All became a little dumber to be blatant. Most notable in my memory is of one friend who is a talented guitarist. After taking it (mind you we all took it by snorting it which definitely accounted for the extreme exaggerated effects but I’ve seen similar reactions when taken orally) his hands started to become numb due to the vastro constriction which was common. By the time he got home it was hitting him pretty hard and he picked up the guitar to play. Like a complete beginner is what he looked like. Flashes of his abilities were there but only as if it was by accident not a brief glimpse of true ability. Guy broke down. Never seen him like that but it was just me and his girlfriend with him. I wasn’t necessairly close enough for him to do that willingly in front of me but you could tell he couldn’t hold it in. Dude thought he would never be able to play again. Ever. He was seriously considering suicide as a result of that belief and his negative emotions being amplified by the drug. Luckily we convinced him it was only temporary but when your in that mindset every second is a lifetime. And when your mindset is altered from its normal state anything is possible and nothing is achievable. Days later he told us how he fully convinced himself of spending the rest of his life in some sort of flowers for Algernon situation destined for things only to get worse. Definitely the dumbest drug anyone of them ever took and surprisingly one of the more legal options which still boggles my mind to this day.
So yeah. You mentioning the fact he was on anti depressants makes perfect sense when you consider how bad some of his performances in the last year of his life were and his constant claims of not actually being on drugs anymore despite it looking to the contrary on stage. I can’t believe it didn’t click for me before but now it finally makes sense cause although I never knew the guy but he never claimed to be sober before actually getting sober and it just doesn’t feel like he’d lie about that and yet I would watch his set and could only attribute it to heavy drug use rather than extreme withdrawals. Makes sense now.
Dat neva happen
Notice on the post-mortem, the coroner noted on the second stab wound, a clinical history of "pericardial tamponade". I had to look that up--the medical definition is: "Cardiac tamponade - which is sometimes called pericardial tamponade - happens when the pericardium fills with fluid (especially blood). Because the fluid has nowhere to go, your heart runs out of room and can't expand enough to fill effectively." So, the knife penetrated the pericardial lining of the heart, causing the space between the lining and the heart itself to fill with blood, making it impossible for the heart to fully inflate with each heartbeat. Elliott may have run but he wouldn't have made it far for sure, after massive blood loss and his heart not being able to beat at all. Anyway, I agree with Alyson, this doesn't make sense as a suicide.
Since it says clinical history, it would seem to be something he had in the past. It would not be called clinical history if it was from the event that killed him. It would say evidence of , or something similar.
Just finishing up watching, another great episode! I did want to mention that the Oswald mock trial w/Bugliosi and Spence is on CZcams. The whole thing.
It's on David Von Pein's JFK Channel. The playlist is here:
czcams.com/play/PL0O5WNzrZqIOubam491Q_OKBOBzfH7RDi.html
If suicide, you'd really have to hate someone to put them in an incriminating position like that, not to mention the sheer horror.
If homicide, you'd really have to hate someone to stab them like that.
We can imagine the threat of abandonment could induce this hatred in chiba
I just wonder what could cause that kind of hatred in Smith.
A true genius of the art form. Listen to the playing and singing of Angeles and it’s so complex yet simple and honest and deep. Elliott Smith was a brilliant artist. His songs hit hard and cut deep. I miss him.
We lost a generational talent when he passed. Learning his songs on guitar is a fast track to understanding complex chord shapes and structures, the dude was truly a prodigy when it came to writing music. His lyrical ability was top notch as well. I found him during a point in my life when I was going through darkness and a bad breakup, he sings resonated deeper than any of artist I’ve ever listened to. He had a way of stripping away the layers and getting directly into your soul.
Mark mentioned Weezer at 28:47 and I burst out singing, “Say it ain’t sooooo, my loooove is life takerrrr,” and then realized the relevance to the story the pair was discussing.
Holy shit😮
I do whole heartedly believe smith was probably a cutter at some point in his life. I’m a male and I was. And a lot of males who listen to this darker music like smiths or bright eyes etc. also have at some point in their life.
That doesn’t mean he stabbed himself in the chest at noon on a Friday after getting clean.
I was waiting for someone to take a deep dive into Smith's death. It's pretty clear from the medical examiner that the girlfriend could have easily been culpable, however the fact he had a history of suicidal ideation and grandiose measures of carrying it out--I.E. leaping off of a cliff--leaves the door of reasonable doubt wide open. Solving it will require new evidence or a confession, I'm afraid. I have not watched the video yet, but I'm sure you get into this. Thanks and don't give up, Smith was too great a loss to have been hastily grazed over and forgotten.
The cliff episode was not a suicide attempt: he didn’t even know there was a cliff there, he was drunk and upset and he started running in the dark. I don’t believe there was any real suicide attempt besides his drug abuse. Sure Elliott talked about suicide but his behavior was more ‘let’s see what happens’ when taking large amount of drugs. Stabbing yourself in the chest twice without any hesitation marks, through clothing and through the sternum is the opposite of this. It requires an extreme amount of strength and skill to kill yourself this way.
I “discovered” him from the Royal Tenenbaums. The seven with Luke Wilson and the mirror. Amazing
Also Abigail Stanton is not a therapist, she is a psychiatrist, someone prescribing meds. I talked to one of her ex patients and she doesn’t even talk much, she just writes prescriptions (this person was not very happy about her). As for the alleged conversation she had with Elliott’s father, it’s very fishy. Why? Because it was reported by Liam Gowing who wrote an article for Spin and who never talked to Elliott’s father. Since a psychiatrist should never talk about a patient, I don’t think Gowing talked to Stanton either. So this should come from Chiba herself who talked to Gowing at great length. That’s why I take it with a grain of salt to say the least.
Agreed. that would be a massive ethics violation.
The autopsy certainly seems to indicate murder. No one stabs themself in the heart twice, the shock of it all would prevent that. Also the defensive wounds.....you don't get those with suicide. Hard to believe they didn't realize she left the country in an apparent attempt to save herself. It certainly is suspicious anyway. I think Mark is right, it at least deserves a grand jury.
It can’t really be overstated just how wildly incompetent and/or lazy, the first responding officers were.
To show up to a scene which would’ve absolutely looked like a homicide scene, and simply take the let’s be honest, a far fetched explanation for the bloody scene, would be outlandish.
Once this initial massive failure took place, from a legal standpoint this case was over, and no DA on earth would’ve touched it.
It’s also important to note, once this initial failure by PD took place,
(catastrophic for a prosecution) it would have been far more preferable for them to kind of “stick with the narrative” to save face and put this thing to bed as quickly and quietly as possible, rather than come right out and “fall on their sword” and admit to gross incompetence.
(Not necessarily nefarious, just business)
Fact of the matter is, unless competently handled from initial contact, barring a witness and or confession, this would’ve been an iffy case at best!
From a case building/prosecution standpoint, even well handled this would have been a low percentage case.
Alyson and I discussed this aspect in some detail.
Wow, had no idea the drummer of Modest Mouse was drumming for Smith & went over there to mop up his freaking blood with Chiba! Insanity…
High school/college boyfriend was a huge Elliott Smith fan and I remember him telling me back in the day about how the guy committed suicide by stabbing himself in the heart (so looking back this would have been within the first few months after Smith's death). I just remember thinking how stupid, dramatic, and overall **emo** that seemed but that it made sense given my perception/opinion of his music at the time (i.e., dramatic and emo). Sort of interesting though that they used "Needle in the Hay" for the scene of Ritchie's suicide attempt in the Royal Tenenbaums.
Elliott hated that. He was really upset they used his song for this scene.
This is one of those cases that is going to haunt me for years.
Ive been a fan of Elliot for a while, and i deliberately avoided looking into his death. Partially because i wasnt ready to 'lose' him in my mind, and partially because i didnt think Elliot would have ever wanted his death to be the focus of his life.
I even put off watching Heaven Adores You for as long as i could because i really do just adore his music, his art, his living legacy and i knew that once his discourse about his death started, that id be obsessed with finding out the 'why' behind it.
There is so much about this thats off. The LAPD are sketchy as hell. The amount of crime that they have let people away with or actively participated in is insane.
Elliot Smith was a true legend and his death deserves to be investigated properly and thoroughly. It doesnt matter if in the end they get no convictions, they should have been persuing it anyway.
I highly recommend Alyson's book, im reading it right now. Not only does she lay out all the data but she paints a vivid picture of life at that time. She puts it into context and includes so many different sources. It's fascinating and impressive that someone has put so much time and effort into collecting all the relevant information and sifting through it to give it to us.
I’d given up hope there’d be a Pt 2. This was a nice surprise.
Wow, I had never heard any of this. Hopefully the truth will prevail and if his GF was responsible, she will be brought to justice.
I lived in Seattle from 2000-2017 and all I know is Elliott's music: haunting delicate thunderous macro chasms. No matter what happened, his art endures and God is the ultimate judge.
Some valid information shared, thank you! Maybe a little too much giggling going down though ? Let's respect Elliott's memory, what ever happened, his family friends and fans are still hurting...
Thanks for doing this story. I used to see him around Sunset Junction when I worked in the area. Never have believed it was a suicide. Love your channel.
"Chiba", ironically is the Mexican slang word for HEROIN; not sure if you mentioned that. You can't make this stuff up! Love the channel, been referring it to many friends. I've been reading, researching JFK for years and Mark is almost encyclopedic on the matter.
@IANDTHELANR1 quite possible, although the v anb b sound are almost interchangeable in Spanish. I just thought that was an interesting side note considering that she was so into opioids. Shoot, she may have changed her name to that, she was in the music biz, they use stage names.
My favorite musical artist without a close 2nd. so beautifully honest. He was still on the upside, imho basement on a hill was easily his best album. There’s a reason people don’t kill themselves that way, it always seemed almost impossible to me. i always assumed she was related to the chief of police or prosecutor or something
Same. I’ve never listened to another artist so often as E.S. John Moreland is far 2nd
Btw, if you didn’t know they have an acoustic version of basement on a hill. It’s hauntingly great. Can hear the bros in the background cheer him on after some of the songs.
thanks for the info i’ll definitely check that out. I would listen to elliot and alice n chains because i’ve spent years stuck in addiction and have suffered horribly with mental illness including extremely bad ocd and years of the hopeless type of depression which anyone who has had the misfortune to experience will understand when i say that it becomes immediately obvious that this is the depression that drives one to suicide and i can guarantee anyone who says suicide is an act of selfishness has been blessed enough to never experience that state for even one minute. I’m just making this comment because if anyone is reading this and is living in the depths of solitude and pain you have a fucking choice and it’s going to determine the rest of your life in unimaginable ways. This is honestly the most important advise you ever get. in my experience the most heartbreaking painful experiences in life are in actuality the most beautiful gifts. I know it’s counterintuitive but please trust me , make a fucking rule for yourself and never break it. Don’t ever allow yourself to even take a couple steps down that road of victim hood. That road leads to fucking hell. In every painful event that life throws at you if you take the time you’ll always find a path of growth which is exponentially faster because of the suffering. You can accomplish 15 years of inner growth in a couple months , the speed of the growth seemed to me to be directly proportionate to the level of suffering. I lived this truth for over a decade and im not exaggerating at all. There is only one band that lifted me out of hell and that is Blind Melon. If you can get to listen to them live at woodstock in 98 or 94 or something, watch that performance and try to feel sad lol Just be a better person everyday than you were the day before through the suffering and sadness and eventually your outside life will reflect the kind beautiful person you’ve become on the inside. God bless
You never pull out a impaled object
In bathroom and in shower while he did it is her claim, but I think the shower was after the knife attack.
talking about huxley & lewis dieing on jfk assassination, reminds me of farrah fawcett dieing same day as michael jackson & even oscars didn't show her in their tribute. not sure if emmys showed her in their tribute. funny about timing
Thank you for this!! 😢
Haven't finished this yet, but has anyone ever talked to River about this lady!?
Ick, most people counciling others are effed up themselves, big time!
I have a sister that is beyond messed up. Unable to be alone, uses any guy that can materialisticly pacify her, until they can't and she ruins their credit and moves on. Super low self-esteem, material stuff brings comfort and can't EVER be on her own but thanks to Phoenix University she can mess with anyone's head. Totally and beyond scary!!! 😬
Niiice, didn’t think part two was available!
[I remember when I first read the news of his passing; I was SO looking forward to FROM A BASEMENT ON THE HILL after reading his intentions for that album: he wanted it to be a double record modeled after the WHITE ALBUM. So sad. So many inconsistencies with Chiba's story. Eerily reminiscent of Kurtd's scenario.]
Thanks! Here you go, a little towards the search for Mothman! :)
Happy freedom day, guys!!!
Great video. So detailed. Lots of info. I hope Netflix makes a doc.
Also permanent resident of the uk . Never ever coming back . X
Um “junkies don’t stab themselves in the chest, they OD”
Except some junkies do stab themselves in the chest. Artie Lange
Dallas Taylor told me he stabbed himself in the stomach.
First I want to say, thank you for this. Second the man on the right ( not saying nothing bad to anyone else ) but he's a great thinker
So many great points about Chiba and well informed
Keep this alive and let's get justice for Elliott
Very much enjoy the content that you and Mark provide. You can’t make this stuff up. Keep on going and keep investigating
TIL that Groubert knew, and briefly housed, Mark Lanegan. Mark really is Forrest Gump in the flesh.
He slept in my bed. I wasn't happy about it.
GREAT coverage of this.-- I agree 100%
Thank you for this
I doubt he stabbed himself but I’ll guess we’ll never know. RIP Elliott ❤
The comment about most people on r/eliottsmith thinking it was a suicide isn’t true, they’re mostly just normal people lol
Oh and Cobain had a massive dose of heroin, no cocaine… not this would matter because the situation was very different 😉
Your both amazing thanks for the hard work and great product!
Eric you are a star and don't you ever forget it...
People often stab themselves TWICE to commit suicide, right?
Not often, but there are more cases of it than you'd think
Stranger than Fiction...wow I'm old. the were so big here in Dallas.
Looking foreward to this.
Who were the first responders ?
One of them must remember the blood splatter-
The drummer for modest mouse certainly knows - as he cleaned it up -
He ought to be questioned
I agree. I think the drummer and her were up to something like Double Indemnity
MARK LANEGAN EPISODE PLEASE!
Lanegan kicked in my garage. mg
@@AmericasUntoldStories
I heard you say quietly that he died of an O.D.
I figured he got back on drugs and died from it
Please do an episode on him .
@@ChrisBarnette-zk8iycame back from a trip and he was in my bed.
@@AmericasUntoldStoriesI bet there were cigarette burns in the sheets. I know you don't take request and I understand that but you can't let this story go unheard to everyone.
I mean you can but please don't
Thank you both for the great videos.
I feel like Elliott was way too timid to stab himself like that. I can see some ironic fascination with hara kiri, but in reality he was too delicate for that. If you've watched him play piano, the way he uses his hands, there's a reverence and respect for his own movement that stabbing yourself in the chest completely contradicts.
Elliott was violent though
@@degengam2781how was he violent? I've heard stories of him cutting and burning himself but that doesn't mean that it suddenly makes it true that he stabbed himself in the heart. The only other times I've read about him being violent were when he would get into fights while defending innocent people or friends who were getting harassed near him
@@qweenofhertz you didn’t hear about his duncanville high school days?
@@degengam2781 I've heard that he had some run ins with the police but I never knew the context about what it was for so I never assumed it was violence. What do you know about it? I'm genuinely curious. I've actually tried finding more information about that time in his life but it's hard to find info online.
@@qweenofhertz “I lived in a series of suburbs: DeSoto, Duncanville, Cedar Hill. My stepdad was into places with bigger and bigger yards, and we kept moving farther and farther away from people. I remember there were a lot of white folks and there wasn’t much money. I was kind of a violent little person-I was not a very happy kid-and the kids at my school were violent little monsters too. So every couple of weeks there was somebody new to fight. I only won a couple in my whole life, but I was one of those kids who just wouldn’t throw in the towel, no matter how badly I was getting beat. It was like, “Yeah, you’re gonna kick my butt, but I’m gonna try to hurt you before you do.” More than anything, fighting on the school grounds just landed me in the principal’s office, and back then they would spank you with a big wooden paddle that had holes drilled into it. I don’t know if they do that anymore, but it was better when I moved to Portland. Nobody gets into fights in Portland.”
I'm not from USA, discovered his music around 2006, and been a fan from the first listen. Never really looked up his cause of death thinking it was a suicide. So saddening to know that 99.5% possibility it was actually murder.
Many thanks for the series about Elliott Smith! I'd never given much thought to his death, but these videos bring up interesting reasons to doubt that he died by suicide. These shows original thinking.
Mark, I don't read a ton but when I do read it's about Manson, JFK, Mob, or true crime. I'm stunned about what Tom had to say about Bugliosi but not shocked.
His life was like a hardcore version of the movie Garden State
I'm from Wales if it helps!
Noticed that the toxicology says mirtazapine, that drug causes rage, I know that from personal experience and if you research you will find anger and rage a side effect of mirtazapine.
Case closed by Gerald Posner. No question that Oswald acted alone.
Wouldn't a goat, be a better soft toy called Oswald.
LOVE YOUR SHOW! Hundley is a behinds the scene guy..he just doesn't seem to "get" Buck's (Groubert) vibe. Oooooommmm.👳♂️
Female assaults male crime, often unpunished.
Chiba got Elliot hooked on chiva.
We need justice for Elliott
if she pulled the knife out she'd be covered in blood...this is so odd
she took the shower after the crime, not before. IMHO
@@AmericasUntoldStories absolutely! I'm an ICU nurse. I'm covered in blood for wounds way less traumatic. I swear if I misspell a word on an essay I'll get jail time. How do people get away with this crap?
@@cantbesure0714 I agree. It's crazy for sure.
i love elliott smith. him and leonard cohen will live on forever
We need a t-shirt with, 'Anyway, to make a long story short.....'
I’m with you on the scam rehabs esp the 43 advertising as “ Malibu “ that are really in agoura . X
The pictures from plain clothed man which he did with heatmiser and also solo.
Where did you get that Dylan Beiber photo?
Lies, damned lies and statistics
I think it's too difficult because you only have her word, Elliott was known to have had many problems and with his lyrics, it's going to be too easy to bring reasonable doubt. Apart from all of that, I don't know what they're waiting for.
record label hit job
That bird is so persnickety.
49:50 Finger = Heartfelt
i saw a question about how common stabbing suicides are in the live chat, and i wanted to say its not that common really. its weird because if someone were to die in such a manner, there would be some sort of hesitation mark where he would have hesitated. no matter how hard you'll try, you'd still struggle because your brain is wired to not stab yourself (of course). but with his autopsy there was none. i see a lot of kurt cobains similarities in this case. they were both ruled as a suicide, but seem to suspicious so actually BE a suicide. i feel as though she had framed him for fame, similarly to Courtney love.
I'm pretty sure Courtney did Corbain. (Sp.)
Elliott's death was not ruled as a suicide. the LAPD never closed the investigation
Also,didn't ANTHONY BURGESS also die on 11-22-1963 ???
Who was the guy that struck your channel
Jennifer Chiva is surely a rough bird. This poor man must have been under the influence....
No he was not under the influence of any drugs beside therapeutic doses of ADHD meds and antidepressant
Suggestions for your T-shirt: "There's a lotta meat on that bone"
Where is part 1 ?
Hit video
Okay, I love you guys, but....Mothman? ;)
Vacation hi jinx
I'm on he pavement, Thinking bout the government.
Which I am.
Heavy sigh. I enjoyed this video.
What!? No flash second intro with the guys in the beginning... getting too professional. 😆
the fact shes so controlling and all the rest of this.. makes me lean to ..it def wasnt suicide
Crazy! 😶✌🏽🥃
That you cannot see individuals in a couple independently is absolutely not true. In fact, when you can retain objectivity, it’s very effective, even facilitates the couples therapy…
However, if you can’t retain objectivity… then don’t do it.
And… most therapists need therapy. That’s what can make a therapist good… they’ve worked and/or are working through the issues they’re most effective helping with.
More than once, I have seen therapy be hijacked when they let themselves be influenced by one member of the couple who arranged an individual session. These therapists had no knowledge of, nor recognition of the sociopathic narcissist who hijacks couples counseling this way. In which case the therapist makes things worse whether counseling is hijacked by the covert abuser or not.
Dr George Simon is an expert on this… he would catch on to this type of abuser quickly… as do I.
thee books short ther was also 3 blind mice laffs
1:00:10 'No controversy about that one' Ref Kurt Cobain 'suicide'. Who's kidding who ? More research required before such flippant statements please!
Looking fore to this.
impossable fr a rocker too find a normal women thats.non drug head eg guys date that equals early death
The sister became a Lesbian Dance Theorist, I believe.
Good.
Eric tell Mark I didnt even notice he doxed himselt😄
He was targeted. White vans. Theft of songs. Amazing artist.
Elliot was murdered by a female narcissist
Elliot never hid who he was. His depression was always in his music but since we kept buying it, we kept fueling it so it is us who is to blame for egging him on.
I was a caseworker and worked with mentally ill individuals. People always need to blame others. The scenario of his death you presented is very plausible. He most likely killed himself. It’s what they do. They often act out and then punish the real victims, the people around them. Genius has nothing to do with suicide.
When you listen to his music, he never hid who he was because today when I was listening to his last album, a weird feeling overcame me as if I wasn't suppose to be listening to it and that's when it hit me hard that Smith really did kill himself because that's where his music was leading himself to.
[I stopped listening when the guy on the right said, "...Elliott wasn't as sharp as that Weezer guy so he was easily taken down." If someone is building a case, this guy is not helping. So much assumption/presumption with the info he shares. The facts of the case are quite enough without turning it into character assassination. Chiba proved herself guilty already, just based on her haphazard statements and her actions that day.]
Hey schmuck, the facts of the case are highly in dispute. No is building a case. Rivers Cuomo was her former lover. He paid for her escape ticket to Hong Kong. Elliott was like a vegetable at the end. Very weak. Very vulnerable. Chiba has NOT proven herself guilt already. What a jackass. From the guy on the right. Asshole.
Makes no sense that a person would repeatedly stab themselves in the chest.clearly I can invasion her stabbing him and chasing him around but I wasn't there but her character is highly in question.
Agree stooge
I am late. Let's take it from the top.
Mark is Jollie West going to get a show? This guy seems to show up at all the right times.
Yep. He will have an episode. EH
Have you read _Chaos_ by Tom O'Neill?
Nice name! Bed sheet!
@@blabl590 well ty
Oh yeah, this is definitely one I'm sharing with my sons. We have different tastes in entertainment, but we all love music, and I know they both loved Elliott Smith, the oldest especially since he played the guitar and did a lot Elliott songs. Neither one thought his death was suicide.