I understand that the layer would be an impediment to your ability to detect her, but wouldn't the Alfa be loud enough to pick back up again later, or could she have gone evasive and used the layer to mask a high speed dash out of the area? Curious to hear your thoughts since you were the one on the job.
David, just curious what class of submarine you were in at the time? I'm a little surprised that even in 1986 a layer would totally stop you from tracking him?
@@SilencedMi5 I agree I am also surprised, but I suppose it could depend on many factors. He didn't give us much info but perhaps he was on an older, less capable US submarine (Skipjack class?) without modern sonar, or perhaps the Alfa was doing it's version of a silent run creep?
I saw countless "documentaries", "science" programs and "historical" presentations about Alfa, with amazing narrators, even Russian-speaking ones. All a big load of s**t. Now I listen to a guy who manages to pronounce every Russian word, term, and city name so wrong that it's unrecognizable to a Russian speaking listener, and yet, he is presenting a ton of information, speaking with experience, knowledge, logical timeline, educated guesses...just joy to watch. Thank you, sir.
Forget the Russian words, English can be challenging enough (Admiral-ty? Ad-miral-ity?). But as you indicate, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, not so much the pronunciation.
It's pretty interesting going back to Hunt for Red October and seeing how much he got wrong about the Alfa. Clancy basically wrote off the idea that they had a novel reactor design and imagined a normal PWR built to extreme limits. An Alfa in the book even has a reactor failure of a kind that the real Alfa is completely impervious to. Can't have coolant over-moderation with a non-moderating coolant, and you can't get a high-pressure explosion with a low-pressure system that doesn't boil.
That turn rate is something like 25% that of a fighter jet! Pretty impressive. I'm the systems engineering lead for Westinghouse's Lead-Cooled Fast Reactor, so I have a soft spot for this hot rod of a submarine.
@@Jupiter__001_ The lead is a liquid. Roughly 400C at coldest and 650C at core outlet. Many properties are closer to liquid water than one might expect.
@@corystansbury Very interesting! I had heard of mercury being used as a coolant for electronics, but beyond that I didn't think liquid metals were useful in that application. Thanks.
One thing I love about you submariners is just how much respect you have for one another. Here you are probably at one point fully expecting to be "shot" at by an Alfa for example and still the presentation in this video about the crew and the vessel is done in such a respecting fashion. Kudos sir, kudos.
“You have to respect your enemy. Never, ever underestimate them. The second you do, they’ll squash you. Be smart about them. Respect their abilities, even if they don’t respect yours.” - James Patterson
Just to put the power-to-weight ration in perspective, that 3,100 ton Alfa had the same shaft HP as one of our first-generation 18,400 ton Ohio-class missile boats. As to their test depth, we were always told that they could dive to 3,000 ft once, but it would work-harden the Titanium hull and make the alloy more brittle, so preventing that became the limiting factor rather than sheer hull strength.
"You arrogant ass, you've killed us!" As a Russian, I always felt sad for the crew of that Alfa. They tried to sink someone they seriously considered to be a traitorous lunatic, got screwed over by their Captain and a sub that they (probably) didn't know was there. Anyways, great work, I really appreciate it :D
Had this been for real, there is no way the crew of the Alfa did not know there was a Los Angeles sub nearby. Doing that sort of maneuvers the 688 was in the movie would reveal her presence to the SONAR men aboard the Alfa, and I suspect that had the officers and crew of a Soviet SSBN went rogue, the Soviet Navy would spare no effort to hunt down and sink it.
@@taraswertelecki3786 in the book the Alfa crew know that there's a Los Angeles class nearby, but they also know that they aren't authorized to shoot, in the end all the LA class did was firing a decoy hoping to trick the Alfa to shoot at it and use it as an excuse to fire at the Alfa but it didn't work. Typhoon took a hit by the torpedo from Apfa but later Alfa was sunk in a collision with the Typhoon
Dont be, everyone is caught by suprise by that torpedo when they are in the red october. Somevody asks if the torpedo is American and Johnesy say: No, the pitch is to high. They didnt heared those torpedo hatches opening of that alpha? Or the sound of those torpedoes being launched? Whilst typing this, their death could be even more sad. Bad luck killed them, when they had a perfect attack (but shitty torpedo that fails to detonate or locate target from close range) And in the end it is a script..... it is not like this movie is accurate in details xD
Před 3 lety+54
In the Swedish Navy it was a thing to "borrow" road signs and bring them to the boat, and then promptly be forgotten, alcohol might been involved. The road signs were then found by the dockworkers when the ships were in for a service/overhaul. The walls above the catwalk for the overhead crane at the largest drydock at the Muskö base, were littered with road signs that they found through out the years :D
Oh we did that to in Norway, except we would steal the big Mahogany board, they had in the crew mess on British ships... but only on the ship we was anchored next to, so you coul jump from ship to ship, easy. Of course, they wasn't specially happy about it, specially when you stole it from a British destroyer, one time, when they was leaving port, just a little later then us, they would come hunting us down, so long they had time. They rarely catch up with us, due to back then, Oslo class could operate without engine limiter and with combat propeller insted of those economy propeller they got later, could easy get pass 30+ knots (have heard 38 knots mentioned once)
We tracked them in the mid-80s in the COLD water at some EXTREME ranges. When they were going fast, they were heard everywhere. They didn't hear a doggone thing around them either.
@@beerthug Get over yourself and excessive sensitivity and PC BS. Regrettably HK have been around for over 50 years and will almost certainly survive another year or two no matter what. I don't think anyone I ever heard tell a HK joke disrespected the lady herself. It was just that she was so famous as a non sighted person that instant recognition occurred
The Alfa deserved her codename. She really was a truly remarkable sub in more ways than one. The moment I saw a picture of the Alfa underwater with its antennas and vents close; looking unbelievably streamlined and smooth, I fell in love. Such a shame that no Alfa’s were saved for museum exhibition.
A professor I knew was awarded permission to come co-teach at a university in Moscow and this was a dream of his, Russia was his specialty. He got an apartment and needed a washing machine and dryer. He knew buying appliances of any kind in Russia was like nothing anyone in the West would understand. "New" appliances doesn't mean problem free. He asked a Russian friend of his for advice and was given a store and a brand name he should buy. So he did. A month later the machine is kaput, so he calls that friend of his to ask about their apparent misunderstanding. The friend wasn't surprised at all, in fact, he said "...oh, yes, I know they are junk BUT they are very easy to work on."
The Alfa is the single coolest attack submarine ever. It puts the "fast" in "fast attack." Like most things the USSR created, it was more myth than anything else, but still incredible.
The "protective covering" over the screw, when in drydock was actually a security measure, to prevent foreign satellites or spy planes from seeing the design of the screw, or at least that's how it was when my boat, SSN 614, was in drydock.
Given the oblique angles most spy satellites have to take photos I think maybe it was there to stop things from dinging the prop. (Making it more noisy - given it is going to be doing 40 kts at great depths.)
@@boilermaker7754 - yes, I remember seeing US boats with props fully concealed with what looked to be like a tarp or heavy fabric/curtain. Thanks for reply.
Changed out the Shock Mounts... Courtesy of the Walkers, father & son. Tks for the Outsquisite vid. Appreciate your continued passion for your former career. Keep em coming!
I was an AW during the mid-to-late 70's with the P-3C and the new S-3A. We were amazed and very concerned by the intelligence reports (and rumors) surrounding the Alfa development. We were told she was going to be the most formidable adversary we could imagine and if built in sufficient numbers would shift the balance of battle effectiveness to their Navy. The Walkers should have been publicly and slowly 'disassembled' to send a crystal-clear message about committing High Treason against the USA. The fact that they were allowed to live on the American taxpayers dime is an unacceptable disgrace and an insult to America's service members who were put in harms way by their actions. ^v^
@@guardrailbiter Does that include those who were SOSUS Types, you know, the ones who could tell ya the captains name of the boat Gained before Polyarny CWO knew the last tug line was cast off and submerged? Yes, then became SPECOMMDIV OPS. So yeah, once a Sailor....A Sailor for Life!! Some of my best friends in those days had tats on their R hand that read: DBF
My father was one of the first Royal Navy sonar men to identify the alpha at sea, (of course the Americans knew much about them at this time but had not shared that with anyone yet) When he took his findings to a senior officer he was told to “shut up and go away” he did not go away! But stuck to his guns by the end of the day and several extremely high speed attack passes by the alpha on the surface vessels everyone onboard those vessels knew that the alpha hunting them was “louder than hades on a bad Monday morning” but nevertheless totally unstoppable.....! Many years later we sat together watching this briefing and even now I can clearly see the excitement and terror he and his shipmates experienced that day all those years ago in his eyes. Well done sir 👍
The lessons learned in designing, building and maintaining those reactors have been used for a civilian program. Russia is finishing a 300MW electrical output test reactor near Tomsk, and the research from this will eventually be used to build a 1.2GW one. The major reason fast neutron reactors like this one are desirable is that they allow much more fuel burnup, both reducing nuclear waste and getting more energy out of the fuel. Also the new ones are being built as gen4, so waaay safer. btw the only other usable alternatives for liquid metal reactor coolant are sodium (explodes on contact with water, easy to set on fire) and sodium-potassium alloy (likes to auto-ignite in air, reacts even more violently with water). This is why lead-bismuth is much better alternative even when it means higher melting temp and cost.
I remember reading an article in the Washington Post about the Alpha's. Apparently the CIA had an operative in the shipyard with special shoes that picked up metal shavings. That is how we learned that Titanium was used for the hull.
That old trick? I heard that's supposedly how the Soviets learned of the metallurgy required to make effective turbine blades for jet aircraft while visiting a British factory back in the 1940s.
@@maxwellsmith3648 True, the story goes that they agreed to sell them to the Soviets for 'none military purposes' as the British believed the Soviets didn't have the know how to produce them because of the metallurgy required for the turbine blades, a nimonic alloy. Thus while a Soviet delegation was being shown round a factory producing these jets they wore the soft soled shoes and stood by a lathe making the blades. In the end the Soviets couldn't replicate said alloy but found a more than adequate substitute when they reverse engineered the purchased jets.
I was on a Gearing class Destroyer in 71 doing specops in the Med with the Russian fleet. At one point, we tracked a Russian sub at 27-28 kts (best we could do!) From the lower engineroom, I could hear the sonar pinging off it. We did this for 28 hrs. Then it disappeared! I talked with a sonar guy, he told me they just stopped and headed straight back at us and the closing speed was 72 knots! Poof! They were gone! Thinking that mighta been an alpha!(?)
Project 705 " Alpha s" are like the Mig-25 below the sea. Sailing in between a enemy fleet at 41 knots and firing a salvo of 4 torpedo's and scooting out to spin around and come back again. Scary
Interesting thing about the MiG25 was that they built it out of steel , with little titanium, to save money. Though, I guess, the airplane was to be an operational combat aircraft built in relatively large numbera while the alfa was probablt planned to be built in very small numbers.
@@user-kx3nm9cs5i, my friend. Have you ever heard so much rubbish in your life? So many people claim to have operated against an Alfa (Project 705), yet they cannot tell you anything real. It is also obvious that many dont know where they operated. The MPA Story is fascinating haha. Hope you are well.
@@shaider1982 It was not just to save money, they were short of skilled metal workers and adhesive technology, using steel meant that they could make extensive use of spot welding which is much quicker and less skilled work that riveting and avoided the need for advanced high temperature adhesive.
I served on four different submarines between 1980 and 1992 as a Sonarman. Three of those were fast attacks. I was part of several missions where we would go stick our nose where probably didn't belong. I recall my own unique experience with the aforementioned Alpha. One of the submarines I served on became the test bed for a brand new tote array system. A large part of the testing program required us to go out and find those guys which the system did very easily. I was both fascinated and horrified at the same time with the performance of that submarine. I would ask where you got your information about the April counter detection that you mentioned during your video. All of us in the sonar community heard about it of course but wondered how on earth a submarine as noisy as the alpha was able to detect one of our sound silenced submarines. Thank you for putting together a fantastic video. Brought back a lot of memories.
Hello, I truly enjoyed your work! I was on an FFG in the mid 80s and were kinda told this thing wasn't that great and that there were only a couple of them... We did have advanced underwater listening systems and the ASROC weapon system. We knew that the homing under water torpedo, that was launched by rocket from many miles away, could destroy this sub. What we didn't know was what else might be Destroyed by this under water NUCLEAR torpedo. Who knows if we had to launch, for Fleet protection, if any US Subs may have been in the range of that nuke? One of the greatest things Ronald Reagan did was to remove nuclear weapons from all surface ships besides carriers. Thank God the cold war never happened and noone like you got destroyed by a weapon from the crew of an FFG. Take Care my Brother and Thank You for Your Service and a great video, John Ps, I wont name the fast frigate, as I am not supposed to mention nuclear weapons aboard, for life.
I was just thinking, she was decommissioned at the end of the cold war in the 90s. She was the USS BLAKELY, FFG 1072. I have no idea what the displacement of the ASROCs were, that wasn't my job. She was based in the Charleston Naval Base. She took on reservists and patrolled south-south-east on drug trafficking missions during the war on drugs. Her real missions were patrolling the northern Atlantic during the cold war. Man it got cold, stormy and nasty up there! The warmest thing I know of is long John's, boots, a knit cap, beard and a wool Navy P coat! I have my P coat to this day! Y'all take Care and be safe, John
Of all the Soviet submarines that were built and operated by my Russian and Ukrainian counterparts, this submarine intrigues me the most due to it's high speed, titanium construction and the ability to operate at depths no western sub-commander would take his boat to in her time. It seems to be in some respects, way ahead of its time when it was in service. It was a good thing for us in the U.S. that it was as loud as the trains that constantly pass through my city day and night. Thank you for this video, I enjoyed it very much, like your other videos on submarines and their role in history. I would say science fiction has nothing on what submariners here and in what is today Russia did, and are doing today.
That's one thing about Soviet military engineering that I find interesting: the fact that they sometimes have a tendency to chase the wrong thing (and this is not just limited to subs). In the case of the Alfa, they made it the fastest, strongest, and most maneuverable sub of its time. The problem was that they also made it noisy and gave it shitty sonar. This created a situation where, more often than not, a 688 sub they might go up against will detect it first. Very often, that advantage will make all the difference in an engagement. Its true that you can run into scenarios where the Alfa's speed advantage will make the difference, but it won't be the majority of the time. Another example includes a fighter they built (Sukhoi, don't remember the number but it didn't go into widespread production) with thrust vectoring capabilities so good that the plane could practically stop in midair, flip itself around, and begin flying in the opposite direction. Looked cool as hell. Problem is, it was something that could only be done at low speeds, which doesn't help much if an air-to-air missile is screaming in at you at Mach 3. There are numerous other examples.
Best boat Above the Typhoon. The project 971 world biggest ICBM boat is actually called the Akula ( Russian for Shark ) in Russia,. NATO called them Typhoons. The SSN attack boat which superseded the Victor 3 is actually called the Bars Class in Russia which NATO calls them Akula. I like the Alpha`s ( AKA Lira for Russia ) looks and machinery over the Bars class.
If I am not mistaken the Russians had installed a liquid-metal reactor on a November class boat before, project number 645. It was a prototype of course.. Anyway, all in all, a great analysis.
my favorite sub in the game. Do 46 knots, nothing can kill me, I go straight into a convoy, with 200 torpedo's following me and I am faster than them, and once they use up all the ammo, GG yankie cowboys!! heh heh heh. Unless there is also a sub that escorts the convoy. then its a bit of a :( it can catch up, and I have to evade those torpedo's for like an hour. still easy, but def long time.
An Alfa or any Soviet sub of the era running at 20+ knots is like running blindfolded and deaf through a forest while screaming "Here I am, here I am". It's self defeating, and guaranteed to get you killed.
@@KB4QAA for the biggestt part you ard right. And i also dont know how much impact the Walker spy ring had on the noise of the russian sub. But at 20kts, the waterdisplacement around the sensors creates a lot of background noise... But... a lot of variables in different scenarios....
You should do a video on strategic sub/naval doctrine, and why the soviets did things differently than NATO. Such as prioritizing active sonar vs passive, and speed vs stealth.
Excellent work was wondering when you were going to get to the Alpha. Heard crazy stories about these subs when I was a kid. I was told these subs caused a many sleepless night for a lot of you guys in the Navy and Nato Navy's
Excellent research work, very clear overview! During the sixties the Royal Netherlands Navy worked on building a nuclear submarine. My proposal was to construct a small boat with a lead cooled reactor. It was way beyond construction capabilities. Admiral Rickover killed the project in the late sixties: too ambitious for a small country even with an US PWR. It was only until years later that I found out that the Russians had actually constructed such a boat, designed in the more creative years of the Soviet Union in the early sixies. Talking to some Russian colleagues in the nineties they admitted that maintenance was a big problem. Thanks for pointing out so many interesting details!
Just imagine what the crew on the trawler experienced when they suddenly was yanked backward since they had caught an Alfa doing 30 knots the other way!
@@titoune10000 The trawler is much lighter than the sub, so usually the net cables would drag the trawler a short distance and then break, or drag it under before parting. Most of the trawlers this happened to were in areas not normally fished so they were not expected to be where the Submarine was going
Yeah, with maintenance costs there is the bathtub curve. High costs when the boat is new, then it settles down through most of the life, then gets higher and higher as the boat gets old. If you have a bad design or poor build workmanship, it just remains high through the entire life. Maintenance/repairs can cost more than the original boat if you have a real turkey, and it becomes a dockyard queen too.
In reality, with pretty much any millitary hardware. The thing is, that most stuff millitary are made to idealy serve for 15-20 years if not more in some cases. The initial building cost is pennies compared to maintance that is required over time. Not talking about crews, ammo, supplies, it realy adds up.
Aren't system upgrades to keep it "combat-worthy" another expense? I know that is common in military aircraft (new targeting, new engines, new radar, etc).
@@guardrailbiter Realy depending on situation. Warships are usualy kept in service for a very long time and updated several times over their service. But yes, this goes with everything and it depends. If you are willing to invest into a complete new one. Or just updating what you already have. Mind you upgrades, get you only so far and can be made only so many times, before it is better to just build a new vessel.
@@guardrailbiter they are, but it's almost always cheaper to refit an existing ship than it is to build a new one. And with ships like carriers and subs being designed for 40-50 year lifespans, that's not an insignificant thing. Though carriers have a very cheap "refit" level just by changing the mix of the air wing.
I wish I could be a fly on the wall as the retired Russian engineers who designed these hear you sing their praises and a single tear comes to their eye... to hear validation from the Main Enemy - the highest praise a Soviet engineer could hope for
Have you ever heard of a Soviet engineer praising anything made in the west? Their fighter aircrafts have been decimated in each and every battle after cold war. The F15 became a MİG killer with a final documented and devastating score of 104:4.. Also this sub has failed to make any difference. Design was revolutionary? yes probably but in all other areas far behind US/UK technology, especially in reactor, noise reduction and sonar. Discontinued after enormous technical problems. Russian subs are known to be death traps.
Was this the sub that only had one port it could stay at for any extended amount of time because if they went in anywhere else they had to keep the reactor running so the coolant wouldn't solidify while in port? I think I read somewhere that their homeport had a dock where they could hook up super-heated dry steam to the sub allowing the reactor to be shut down. The shore supplied steam was used to keep the coolant liquid.
Nice to know that while the hunt for the red october mentioned the first alfa suffering an accident, the real one's fate isn't as tragic as the one in the novel.
Let me start by saying that this series is one of the best things I've seen on CZcams. Very in-depth and easy to understand with no chest-beating nonsense. As neutral a point of view as you could wish for. There are just a couple of things I'd like to say. First, there is a very significant difference between "Russia" and "the Soviet Union". Americans use the terms interchangeably and they're not interchangeable, as has become very obvious since the break up of the former Soviet Union. I know I sound like I'm being pedantic but, for someone who has read a lot of Russian and Soviet history, it's a big factor for the republics which made up the old USSR. Secondly, the Soviet Union did not collapse. You didn't actually say this but it is another common misconception. The Soviet Union was broken up - basically under the cover of darkness - by Boris Yeltsin and nationalist politicians in the republics in 1991. He did this without the knowledge of Gorbachev, who was still trying to build a new democratic and very liberal Soviet Union which would have western style elections rather than the sham process that exists in places like modern day Russia and Belarus. That communism and particularly communist hegemony in Eastern Europe collapsed is not in question. But the economy did not collapse - sick as it was - nor did social order and the Union did not break up because of either of these factors. Finally, while the cost of maintaining such a large military fleet was extremely high and a definite factor, it was not by any means the only one. The cost of the war in Afghanistan, the lack of economic progress in the 1970s and the lack of income from Soviet client states were all major factors. This particularly included the lack of payment by Eastern European countries for the oil and gas resources. Those countries were flirting with the West and their currency exchanges did not leave enough space for payment, despite Gorbachev constantly extending payment deadlines. This was the largest source of income to the former Soviet Union. This is just a bit of background and not intended to be a criticism of your videos., which are the best on this subject that I have seen by a considerable margin. I'm still working my way through them but I've enjoyed every one of them. Thanks.
Back in the 70's, on the SSN-680 our Captain described Soviet boats as "freight trains" underwater. Keep in mind, it's one thing to outrun another boat, and quite another to outrun its torpedo.
@@egoalter1276 The Soviet submarine K-222 is considered the fastest manned submarine in the world, reaching short speed bursts of 44.7 knots / 51.4 mph) in 1970 The U.S. Navy’s Mk48 - the standard heavyweight torpedo - makes around 55 knots / 63 mph, Operational since 1972
@@Desertpagan Which means there was about a year where the US didnt have a torpedo that could catch the Alphas and Sierras, and another few years where they didnt have one which could dive deep enough.
@@Desertpagan Russia often does, US tends to understate. But we have measured speeds for both Papa and Alpha, and the M.46 speed is still classified, officially given as "more than 28 knots" even for the ADCAP.
Brilliant as usual, thanks. I wondered about the difference between the 2 variants... love your personal recollections as well. Fascinating stuff. Cheers!
The Main difference between those 2 variants ( I think the first 3 boats was 705 and the other 4 was 705K ) was a change to the reactor design, OK-550 then BM-40A for the K`s. Still Lead bismuth cooled but changed with less pipes and routing. foot note info from the Book: Cold War Submarines by Norman Polmar and K.J. Moore
Man, that’s how the diesel electrics stayed in operation in the 60s was the crew scavenging parts off other boats The idea being if the boat was not operational the crew was finished.
Consider the fact that Russia virtually owns the Titanium Supply of the world it's not as big a deal that you imagine. When the US was building the SR-71 Blackbird the titanium was procured through a series of shell companies buying the titanium from Russia for the project...
I really love this format were you go into the history of these subs!! All the ones you have done on the Russian subs were really awesome!! I have watched several times now!
@@valentink487 The story goes that it was invented because the test pilot of Heinkel HE 162 refused to fly it because of the engine placement. So they equipped the seat with four compressed air pistons, one on each corner to pop him out and clear of the engine's air intake. I don't know if it is true, but that's my two cents.
Other issues were that the crew had no promotion opportunities as it was just a small group of officers. Also the small crew meant that ANY battle damage or accidents meant you found it very difficult to cope.
i'm curious what their damage control ability was like. i can't imagine 30 men could do much to fight fires/floods and effect damage control at the same time, especially if 8 have to be manning the con.
These videos are so f**king educational. As a kid, I thought watching a docu on Discovery Channel had a lot of information... Was I wrong. I love to watch these Sub Briefs. I became a Patreon supporter to watch them but watching them on CZcams is so much more comfortable for me, but I am still a Patreon supporter. :D
Tbh CZcams channels like this wipes the floor with 95% of the old Discovery shows (i still like the old Wings of Red Star show narrated by Peter Astinov, but the most havent aged well)
The great benefit of the past 15 years has been the enormous growth in what people present on YT, the amount of research that is done and available and the affordability and quality of camera equipment. You look at some of the old documentaries from the 90s and it just seems like guff compared to what's out there now. You have people like Forgotten Weapons and C&Rsenal delivering way more information than Tales of the Gun (and then still pointing out they are just aggregates and to go read books to get more), you have MHV and MAV or The Chieftain offering real insights into WWII, The Tank Museum is offering the best bits of the old WWII documentaries (i.e. the talking about vehicles) as a separate format online and then there's the host of more broadly enjoyed documentaries out there on just about anything you could think of. For as much at YT as a company is a shithole full of angry vipers on DMT, what it's allowed to grow in terms of entertainment and information is quite astonishing.
For the longest time id grown up thinking the Lira was the small, low cost compliment to the Shchukas, a compromised design favoring speed and depth. As it turns out thats pretty far from the case. There was a whole lot of ahead-of-its-time here. It seems Malakhit had a lot of leeway to pack this thing with novel and advanced technology. I fjnd it fascinating that technological conservatism was pretty strong in many sectors, but in submarines out of the box thinking seemed encouraged.
If you ever want to do a story on the Victor III that the USS McCloy FF-1038 snagged in the Caribbean north of Cuba PM me. I have lots of info that would make it a great story.
In Pacific from 77 till 82, don't remember any Alfa coming south of Alaska. Just like they almost never come south of Iceland. I think due to Sosa the saying was 'Detection range limited only be the size of the ocean there're in". Thanks to the Walker Clan.
One of my favourite subs, a really out-there idea and a revolutionary design. I'm a bit of an air defence tragic so I guess it figures I'd love an underwater interceptor so much. Also - just use the Russian abbreviation, Sevmash is a lot quicker to say than N 402 :v
Best sub in the world when it comes to maneuverability, probably the fastest on his class, and with technological components decades ahead of everything the West could build.... All this should be viewed again and again by all those brainwashed muppets wh still believe in the myth of "al russian navy was crap compared with the US one" ! Congrats to the Sub Brief here, for this great channel, probably the most unbiased in the Tube and one of the best - if not THE best . Thank you man, for your passion, efforts and work to make all this available online.
The TRULY "revolutionary" thing of that project was that Titanium-built hull. It was a marvel of engineering technology - especially considering it was done in the 60's-early 70's era and frankly - up till this day I don't really understand how did they do it. Titanium is a nightmare to work with. It may have have been "loud a.f" as the Americans said, but that wasn't much of a problem for Ivan - it could reach over 42 knots of speed - it was faster than any torpedo the NATO had in their arsenals of the time - couple all this with the fact it could go under 900 meters (probably much more!) - way below any operative depth of any Western sub or even operative depth of any WEAPON ... so - yeah! ...when it came out, NATO commanders at sea had a reason to worry. What's the good thing of being able to track something when you cannot really kill it? It could be destroyed only from ambush-situation - close range and fast enough not to give the time for the crew to react, but that's easier said than done. From the NATO perspective the only positive thing was that it was very small. I don't think it ever carried anything bigger than those 533mms tubes.
Kremlin: _So, how's the new submarine project, comrade?_ Admiralty: _Its going quite well._ Kremlin: _And the reactors?_ Admiralty: _Hmm, they're OK I guess._
I guess you're too young to remember how it really sounded in the CCCP in those days: Kremlin: Is the new submarine project advancing according to the time plan?!? Admiralty: YES, COMRADE GENERAL SECRETARY!!! Kremling: Are the new reactors, the pride of our nation and Socialism, ready for service?!? Admiralty: YES, COMRADE GENERAL SECRETARY!!! ;)
Great video, thank you! And yes, the Alfa was a fascinating and groundbreaking project. About maintaining a fleet is more difficult than building one. What happened in Russia hasn't happened in China, so I'm not sure how relevant that is. Just a reminder: The Soviet military budget was 250 billion in 1988. In 1991, there was no budget; in 1998, the Russian military budget was10 billion. That's an economic massacre. That is the single absolute reason for the fate of all these Soviet-era projects. It went from top of the world to unable to maintain the stuff it had. Halving the budget would have been disastrous, but this was a 25th. It is now back to about 65 billion, but Russia is no Soviet union. You could say they are now a lot smarter and effective in how they promote their interests internationally, but that's another discussion. (Ref: Mueller, Brexit, etc.). For comparison, Colombia, Angola and Oman have roughly the same military budget Russia did in 1998. That's... they're not bad countries or anything, but they are not military superpowers, or aspires to be.
Even just before it collapsed, the Soviet Union was the world's second largest economy which Russia isn't even in the top 10 at the moment. Also a lot of the engineering talent and the specialised production facilities for Soviet weapons and systems were located in countries like Ukraine and Belarus, so Russia had far less capability to build and maintain these advanced weapons even if they'd had the money to pay for it all.
We tracked one in 1986 for about 18 minutes, he went below the layer and that is when we lost him, definitely a loud sub.
Good stuff!
I understand that the layer would be an impediment to your ability to detect her, but wouldn't the Alfa be loud enough to pick back up again later, or could she have gone evasive and used the layer to mask a high speed dash out of the area? Curious to hear your thoughts since you were the one on the job.
David, just curious what class of submarine you were in at the time? I'm a little surprised that even in 1986 a layer would totally stop you from tracking him?
@@SilencedMi5 I agree I am also surprised, but I suppose it could depend on many factors. He didn't give us much info but perhaps he was on an older, less capable US submarine (Skipjack class?) without modern sonar, or perhaps the Alfa was doing it's version of a silent run creep?
@@SubBrief would a walkie talkie work in a sub?
20:40 There is a old joke in a Soviet Navy about "the longest sub in the world - stern in Severodvinsk and bow in Leningrad"
Ha!
Good one 👩🔧
The U.S. Navy had a similar joke about a WW2 cruiser that had her bow blown off in the Solomon Islands and repaired in San Francisco xP
I saw countless "documentaries", "science" programs and "historical" presentations about Alfa, with amazing narrators, even Russian-speaking ones. All a big load of s**t.
Now I listen to a guy who manages to pronounce every Russian word, term, and city name so wrong that it's unrecognizable to a Russian speaking listener, and yet, he is presenting a ton of information, speaking with experience, knowledge, logical timeline, educated guesses...just joy to watch.
Thank you, sir.
I speak Jive.
@@SubBrief Did you actually ever requested help with Russian pronounciation and sources?
@@SubBrief It´s a mixture of Turkey, Russian and Maverick American :-)
@@p_serdiuk I doubt he cares, which perfectly correct.
Forget the Russian words, English can be challenging enough (Admiral-ty? Ad-miral-ity?). But as you indicate, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, not so much the pronunciation.
Bagging the reactor with lead sandbags is a bit like your mechanic tossing you a Nomex suit because your car keeps catching on fire...
Little did the Soviet central planners know that they were designing a submarine for Tom Clancy novels.
It's pretty interesting going back to Hunt for Red October and seeing how much he got wrong about the Alfa. Clancy basically wrote off the idea that they had a novel reactor design and imagined a normal PWR built to extreme limits. An Alfa in the book even has a reactor failure of a kind that the real Alfa is completely impervious to. Can't have coolant over-moderation with a non-moderating coolant, and you can't get a high-pressure explosion with a low-pressure system that doesn't boil.
@@JETZcorp I haven’t read the book in forever I gotta go back now that I know more about the Alpha
You killed us, you arrogant ass!!
@@larrymcjones don't you mean the "Alfa" (as the comment you replied to above spelled it)? 😉 🤣
True
That turn rate is something like 25% that of a fighter jet! Pretty impressive. I'm the systems engineering lead for Westinghouse's Lead-Cooled Fast Reactor, so I have a soft spot for this hot rod of a submarine.
Me too, got a soft spot for this hot rod, not a nuclear technician though. :-)
Subtle. lol
Lead-cooled, is it hot enough that the lead is useful as a coolant liquid or am I dim?
@@Jupiter__001_ The lead is a liquid. Roughly 400C at coldest and 650C at core outlet. Many properties are closer to liquid water than one might expect.
@@corystansbury Very interesting! I had heard of mercury being used as a coolant for electronics, but beyond that I didn't think liquid metals were useful in that application. Thanks.
One thing I love about you submariners is just how much respect you have for one another. Here you are probably at one point fully expecting to be "shot" at by an Alfa for example and still the presentation in this video about the crew and the vessel is done in such a respecting fashion. Kudos sir, kudos.
Thank you.
@@SubBrief Just keep up the good work. Any plans on a lecture about the 949, and 949A?
“You have to respect your enemy. Never, ever underestimate them. The second you do, they’ll squash you. Be smart about them. Respect their abilities, even if they don’t respect yours.” - James Patterson
@@matthewconard1211 That "never underestimate your adversary," phrased as "know your enemy (as well as yourself" goes back to at least Sun Tzu.
@@ThisTrainIsLost True. I tried to look that up, but James Patterson came up.
Just to put the power-to-weight ration in perspective, that 3,100 ton Alfa had the same shaft HP as one of our first-generation 18,400 ton Ohio-class missile boats. As to their test depth, we were always told that they could dive to 3,000 ft once, but it would work-harden the Titanium hull and make the alloy more brittle, so preventing that became the limiting factor rather than sheer hull strength.
”We’re going to kill a friend, Yevgeni. We’re going to kill Ramius.”
Go to 105 on the reactor...
"You arrogant ass,
You killed us!"
I know that book
Weapons, why didn't I get a detonation?
@@taraswertelecki3786
"The weapon enabled on the far side of the target, it passed Red October before it armed."
"You arrogant ass, you've killed us!"
As a Russian, I always felt sad for the crew of that Alfa. They tried to sink someone they seriously considered to be a traitorous lunatic, got screwed over by their Captain and a sub that they (probably) didn't know was there.
Anyways, great work, I really appreciate it :D
Had this been for real, there is no way the crew of the Alfa did not know there was a Los Angeles sub nearby. Doing that sort of maneuvers the 688 was in the movie would reveal her presence to the SONAR men aboard the Alfa, and I suspect that had the officers and crew of a Soviet SSBN went rogue, the Soviet Navy would spare no effort to hunt down and sink it.
@@taraswertelecki3786 in the book the Alfa crew know that there's a Los Angeles class nearby, but they also know that they aren't authorized to shoot, in the end all the LA class did was firing a decoy hoping to trick the Alfa to shoot at it and use it as an excuse to fire at the Alfa but it didn't work. Typhoon took a hit by the torpedo from Apfa but later Alfa was sunk in a collision with the Typhoon
Dont be, everyone is caught by suprise by that torpedo when they are in the red october. Somevody asks if the torpedo is American and Johnesy say: No, the pitch is to high.
They didnt heared those torpedo hatches opening of that alpha?
Or the sound of those torpedoes being launched?
Whilst typing this, their death could be even more sad. Bad luck killed them, when they had a perfect attack (but shitty torpedo that fails to detonate or locate target from close range)
And in the end it is a script..... it is not like this movie is accurate in details xD
In the Swedish Navy it was a thing to "borrow" road signs and bring them to the boat, and then promptly be forgotten, alcohol might been involved. The road signs were then found by the dockworkers when the ships were in for a service/overhaul. The walls above the catwalk for the overhead crane at the largest drydock at the Muskö base, were littered with road signs that they found through out the years :D
🤣🤣🤣
Oh we did that to in Norway, except we would steal the big Mahogany board, they had in the crew mess on British ships... but only on the ship we was anchored next to, so you coul jump from ship to ship, easy.
Of course, they wasn't specially happy about it, specially when you stole it from a British destroyer, one time, when they was leaving port, just a little later then us, they would come hunting us down, so long they had time. They rarely catch up with us, due to back then, Oslo class could operate without engine limiter and with combat propeller insted of those economy propeller they got later, could easy get pass 30+ knots (have heard 38 knots mentioned once)
We tracked them in the mid-80s in the COLD water at some EXTREME ranges. When they were going fast, they were heard everywhere. They didn't hear a doggone thing around them either.
I believe one of the ST riders onboard described it best - "Helen Keller could track an Alfa doing anything above 10kts"
@@bic1498 That "Helen Keller" joke stuff really was distasteful, considering what that woman went through and became!
@@beerthug well if it’s the military that’s probably one of the less distasteful jokes that they make
@@notasoviet1016 Been though it, heard them all. Then grew up.
@@beerthug Get over yourself and excessive sensitivity and PC BS.
Regrettably HK have been around for over 50 years and will almost certainly survive another year or two no matter what.
I don't think anyone I ever heard tell a HK joke disrespected the lady herself. It was just that she was so famous as a non sighted person that instant recognition occurred
The Alfa deserved her codename. She really was a truly remarkable sub in more ways than one. The moment I saw a picture of the Alfa underwater with its antennas and vents close; looking unbelievably streamlined and smooth, I fell in love.
Such a shame that no Alfa’s were saved for museum exhibition.
A professor I knew was awarded permission to come co-teach at a university in Moscow and this was a dream of his, Russia was his specialty. He got an apartment and needed a washing machine and dryer. He knew buying appliances of any kind in Russia was like nothing anyone in the West would understand. "New" appliances doesn't mean problem free. He asked a Russian friend of his for advice and was given a store and a brand name he should buy. So he did. A month later the machine is kaput, so he calls that friend of his to ask about their apparent misunderstanding. The friend wasn't surprised at all, in fact, he said "...oh, yes, I know they are junk BUT they are very easy to work on."
That’s weird, I didn’t know Ford made washing machines.
The Alfa is the single coolest attack submarine ever. It puts the "fast" in "fast attack." Like most things the USSR created, it was more myth than anything else, but still incredible.
Hardly a myth
Lightning McQueen: "I am speed"
Alfa SSN: "Hold my Lead-Bismuth Coolant"
Papa SSGN: NYOOOOM!!
The "protective covering" over the screw, when in drydock was actually a security measure, to prevent foreign satellites or spy planes from seeing the design of the screw, or at least that's how it was when my boat, SSN 614, was in drydock.
Maybe I should have said 'security covering'?
Given the oblique angles most spy satellites have to take photos I think maybe it was there to stop things from dinging the prop. (Making it more noisy - given it is going to be doing 40 kts at great depths.)
@@edwardhewer8530 not on my boat...the prop design on each boat was highly classified.
@@boilermaker7754 - yes, I remember seeing US boats with props fully concealed with what looked to be like a tarp or heavy fabric/curtain. Thanks for reply.
@@edwardhewer8530 the Australian Navy subs have the same covering, we were told the prop design was classified.
Changed out the Shock Mounts... Courtesy of the Walkers, father & son.
Tks for the Outsquisite vid. Appreciate your continued passion for your former career. Keep em coming!
You bet
Former career? Once a submariner, always a submariner. Am I right, Turkey?
I was an AW during the mid-to-late 70's with the P-3C and the new S-3A. We were amazed and very concerned by the intelligence reports (and rumors) surrounding the Alfa development. We were told she was going to be the most formidable adversary we could imagine and if built in sufficient numbers would shift the balance of battle effectiveness to their Navy. The Walkers should have been publicly and slowly 'disassembled' to send a crystal-clear message about committing High Treason against the USA. The fact that they were allowed to live on the American taxpayers dime is an unacceptable disgrace and an insult to America's service members who were put in harms way by their actions. ^v^
the walkers shouldve been executed!
@@guardrailbiter
Does that include those who were SOSUS Types, you know, the ones who could tell ya the captains name of the boat Gained before Polyarny CWO knew the last tug line was cast off and submerged? Yes, then became SPECOMMDIV OPS. So yeah, once a Sailor....A Sailor for Life!!
Some of my best friends in those days had tats on their R hand that read:
DBF
My father was one of the first Royal Navy sonar men to identify the alpha at sea, (of course the Americans knew much about them at this time but had not shared that with anyone yet)
When he took his findings to a senior officer he was told to “shut up and go away” he did not go away! But stuck to his guns by the end of the day and several extremely high speed attack passes by the alpha on the surface vessels everyone onboard those vessels knew that the alpha hunting them was “louder than hades on a bad Monday morning” but nevertheless totally unstoppable.....!
Many years later we sat together watching this briefing and even now I can clearly see the excitement and terror he and his shipmates experienced that day all those years ago in his eyes.
Well done sir 👍
The lessons learned in designing, building and maintaining those reactors have been used for a civilian program. Russia is finishing a 300MW electrical output test reactor near Tomsk, and the research from this will eventually be used to build a 1.2GW one.
The major reason fast neutron reactors like this one are desirable is that they allow much more fuel burnup, both reducing nuclear waste and getting more energy out of the fuel. Also the new ones are being built as gen4, so waaay safer.
btw the only other usable alternatives for liquid metal reactor coolant are sodium (explodes on contact with water, easy to set on fire) and sodium-potassium alloy (likes to auto-ignite in air, reacts even more violently with water). This is why lead-bismuth is much better alternative even when it means higher melting temp and cost.
I have to admit, the Soviets built some innovative, beautiful subs. Is there an explanation why Western subs don’t have rescue escape chambers?
Cost.
These orders are seven bloody hours old!
Sitting on the bottom like an addled schoolboy!
I read that in his voice
@@Bugman541 We all do!
Where are we going captain?
Im doing a presentation on Russian Submarines and your presentations will be major sources, thanks a lot Turkey.
Best of luck!
The amount of effort these videos take is remarkable and deserves to recognized. Thank you.
I remember reading an article in the Washington Post about the Alpha's. Apparently the CIA had an operative in the shipyard with special shoes that picked up metal shavings. That is how we learned that Titanium was used for the hull.
That old trick? I heard that's supposedly how the Soviets learned of the metallurgy required to make effective turbine blades for jet aircraft while visiting a British factory back in the 1940s.
@@georgesears2916didn’t the British actually sell a bunch of early engines to the Russians?
@@maxwellsmith3648 True, the story goes that they agreed to sell them to the Soviets for 'none military purposes' as the British believed the Soviets didn't have the know how to produce them because of the metallurgy required for the turbine blades, a nimonic alloy. Thus while a Soviet delegation was being shown round a factory producing these jets they wore the soft soled shoes and stood by a lathe making the blades. In the end the Soviets couldn't replicate said alloy but found a more than adequate substitute when they reverse engineered the purchased jets.
@@georgesears2916 you’re very knowledgeable! That’s a really interesting part of the story.
Thank you!
@maxwellsmith3648 yes, engines.
I was on a Gearing class Destroyer in 71 doing specops in the Med with the Russian fleet. At one point, we tracked a Russian sub at 27-28 kts (best we could do!) From the lower engineroom, I could hear the sonar pinging off it. We did this for 28 hrs. Then it disappeared! I talked with a sonar guy, he told me they just stopped and headed straight back at us and the closing speed was 72 knots!
Poof! They were gone!
Thinking that mighta been an alpha!(?)
Ah, the good ol' Alfa, the submarine that represents the look and power of the former soviet navy...
Awesome content as always, Jive
Glad you enjoyed it
Still the coolest sub ever made. It’s like an underwater B-58 Hustler.
Agree. 'Champion of Champions' ! ^v^
Thanks for making this, never been so intrigued by submarines in my life
Same here. I love hearing about subs
Project 705 " Alpha s" are like the Mig-25 below the sea. Sailing in between a enemy fleet at 41 knots and firing a salvo of 4 torpedo's and scooting out to spin around and come back again. Scary
Interesting thing about the MiG25 was that they built it out of steel , with little titanium, to save money. Though, I guess, the airplane was to be an operational combat aircraft built in relatively large numbera while the alfa was probablt planned to be built in very small numbers.
Project 705
@@user-kx3nm9cs5i Woops Spasibo
Спасибо
@@user-kx3nm9cs5i, my friend. Have you ever heard so much rubbish in your life? So many people claim to have operated against an Alfa (Project 705), yet they cannot tell you anything real. It is also obvious that many dont know where they operated. The MPA Story is fascinating haha. Hope you are well.
@@shaider1982 It was not just to save money, they were short of skilled metal workers and adhesive technology, using steel meant that they could make extensive use of spot welding which is much quicker and less skilled work that riveting and avoided the need for advanced high temperature adhesive.
I served on four different submarines between 1980 and 1992 as a Sonarman. Three of those were fast attacks.
I was part of several missions where we would go stick our nose where probably didn't belong. I recall my own unique experience with the aforementioned Alpha.
One of the submarines I served on became the test bed for a brand new tote array system. A large part of the testing program required us to go out and find those guys which the system did very easily.
I was both fascinated and horrified at the same time with the performance of that submarine.
I would ask where you got your information about the April counter detection that you mentioned during your video. All of us in the sonar community heard about it of course but wondered how on earth a submarine as noisy as the alpha was able to detect one of our sound silenced submarines.
Thank you for putting together a fantastic video. Brought back a lot of memories.
Hello, I truly enjoyed your work!
I was on an FFG in the mid 80s and were kinda told this thing wasn't that great and that there were only a couple of them...
We did have advanced underwater listening systems and the ASROC weapon system. We knew that the homing under water torpedo, that was launched by rocket from many miles away, could destroy this sub.
What we didn't know was what else might be Destroyed by this under water NUCLEAR torpedo.
Who knows if we had to launch, for Fleet protection, if any US Subs may have been in the range of that nuke?
One of the greatest things Ronald Reagan did was to remove nuclear weapons from all surface ships besides carriers.
Thank God the cold war never happened and noone like you got destroyed by a weapon from the crew of an FFG.
Take Care my Brother and Thank You for Your Service and a great video, John
Ps, I wont name the fast frigate, as I am not supposed to mention nuclear weapons aboard, for life.
I was just thinking, she was decommissioned at the end of the cold war in the 90s.
She was the USS BLAKELY, FFG 1072. I have no idea what the displacement of the ASROCs were, that wasn't my job. She was based in the Charleston Naval Base. She took on reservists and patrolled south-south-east on drug trafficking missions during the war on drugs. Her real missions were patrolling the northern Atlantic during the cold war. Man it got cold, stormy and nasty up there!
The warmest thing I know of is long John's, boots, a knit cap, beard and a wool Navy P coat! I have my P coat to this day!
Y'all take Care and be safe, John
Of all the Soviet submarines that were built and operated by my Russian and Ukrainian counterparts, this submarine intrigues me the most due to it's high speed, titanium construction and the ability to operate at depths no western sub-commander would take his boat to in her time. It seems to be in some respects, way ahead of its time when it was in service. It was a good thing for us in the U.S. that it was as loud as the trains that constantly pass through my city day and night. Thank you for this video, I enjoyed it very much, like your other videos on submarines and their role in history. I would say science fiction has nothing on what submariners here and in what is today Russia did, and are doing today.
Hard to be quiet at that speeds.
@@TheGranicd Hard to be quiet when it’s not just your screw cavitating, but also the whole engine compartment, and the crews’ teeth.
You guys should look up papa class sub, only one build and it is faster
That's one thing about Soviet military engineering that I find interesting: the fact that they sometimes have a tendency to chase the wrong thing (and this is not just limited to subs). In the case of the Alfa, they made it the fastest, strongest, and most maneuverable sub of its time. The problem was that they also made it noisy and gave it shitty sonar. This created a situation where, more often than not, a 688 sub they might go up against will detect it first. Very often, that advantage will make all the difference in an engagement. Its true that you can run into scenarios where the Alfa's speed advantage will make the difference, but it won't be the majority of the time.
Another example includes a fighter they built (Sukhoi, don't remember the number but it didn't go into widespread production) with thrust vectoring capabilities so good that the plane could practically stop in midair, flip itself around, and begin flying in the opposite direction. Looked cool as hell. Problem is, it was something that could only be done at low speeds, which doesn't help much if an air-to-air missile is screaming in at you at Mach 3. There are numerous other examples.
@@lil__boi3027 Yes, the Golden Fish, because it was way too expensive to build in numbers. That was why only one was built.
The Alpha! One of the best looking subs IMO, behind the typhoon of course.
Best boat Above the Typhoon. The project 971 world biggest ICBM boat is actually called the Akula ( Russian for Shark ) in Russia,. NATO called them Typhoons. The SSN attack boat which superseded the Victor 3 is actually called the Bars Class in Russia which NATO calls them Akula. I like the Alpha`s ( AKA Lira for Russia ) looks and machinery over the Bars class.
Very thank you, Aron, for this technical quality, and beautiful pictures.
My pleasure!
Yes! Finnally the sonic of the sea
If I am not mistaken the Russians had installed a liquid-metal reactor on a November class boat before, project number 645. It was a prototype of course.. Anyway, all in all, a great analysis.
my favorite sub in the game. Do 46 knots, nothing can kill me, I go straight into a convoy, with 200 torpedo's following me and I am faster than them, and once they use up all the ammo, GG yankie cowboys!! heh heh heh.
Unless there is also a sub that escorts the convoy. then its a bit of a :( it can catch up, and I have to evade those torpedo's for like an hour. still easy, but def long time.
An Alfa or any Soviet sub of the era running at 20+ knots is like running blindfolded and deaf through a forest while screaming "Here I am, here I am". It's self defeating, and guaranteed to get you killed.
@@KB4QAA for the biggestt part you ard right. And i also dont know how much impact the Walker spy ring had on the noise of the russian sub.
But at 20kts, the waterdisplacement around the sensors creates a lot of background noise...
But... a lot of variables in different scenarios....
Really good brief on the Alfa. Highly accurate for the details I was familiar with plus a few added in. Kudos.
You should do a video on strategic sub/naval doctrine, and why the soviets did things differently than NATO. Such as prioritizing active sonar vs passive, and speed vs stealth.
Minor faux pas at 5:32. She had 40,000shp (~30,000Kw), not 4,000 as stated. :)
Outstanding SubBrief!
Really cool to hear an actual navy submariner talk about this stuff! Thank you for the videos and your service.
Nice. The last few subs covered on this channel happen to be the most interesting soviet subs as well imo. Good work!
Excellent work was wondering when you were going to get to the Alpha. Heard crazy stories about these subs when I was a kid. I was told these subs caused a many sleepless night for a lot of you guys in the Navy and Nato Navy's
Excellent research work, very clear overview! During the sixties the Royal Netherlands Navy worked on building a nuclear submarine. My proposal was to construct a small boat with a lead cooled reactor. It was way beyond construction capabilities. Admiral Rickover killed the project in the late sixties: too ambitious for a small country even with an US PWR. It was only until years later that I found out that the Russians had actually constructed such a boat, designed in the more creative years of the Soviet Union in the early sixies. Talking to some Russian colleagues in the nineties they admitted that maintenance was a big problem. Thanks for pointing out so many interesting details!
Just imagine what the crew on the trawler experienced when they suddenly was yanked backward since they had caught an Alfa doing 30 knots the other way!
Would be very interested in examining a net that could catch an Alfa running @ 30 knots xD
thats a faaaast whale lol..... :D
@@titoune10000 The trawler is much lighter than the sub, so usually the net cables would drag the trawler a short distance and then break, or drag it under before parting. Most of the trawlers this happened to were in areas not normally fished so they were not expected to be where the Submarine was going
Amazing brief, Aaron! Great job!
Yeah, with maintenance costs there is the bathtub curve. High costs when the boat is new, then it settles down through most of the life, then gets higher and higher as the boat gets old. If you have a bad design or poor build workmanship, it just remains high through the entire life. Maintenance/repairs can cost more than the original boat if you have a real turkey, and it becomes a dockyard queen too.
In reality, with pretty much any millitary hardware. The thing is, that most stuff millitary are made to idealy serve for 15-20 years if not more in some cases. The initial building cost is pennies compared to maintance that is required over time. Not talking about crews, ammo, supplies, it realy adds up.
Aren't system upgrades to keep it "combat-worthy" another expense? I know that is common in military aircraft (new targeting, new engines, new radar, etc).
@@guardrailbiter Realy depending on situation. Warships are usualy kept in service for a very long time and updated several times over their service. But yes, this goes with everything and it depends. If you are willing to invest into a complete new one. Or just updating what you already have. Mind you upgrades, get you only so far and can be made only so many times, before it is better to just build a new vessel.
@@guardrailbiter I personally am strictly referring to maintenance and repair.
@@guardrailbiter they are, but it's almost always cheaper to refit an existing ship than it is to build a new one.
And with ships like carriers and subs being designed for 40-50 year lifespans, that's not an insignificant thing. Though carriers have a very cheap "refit" level just by changing the mix of the air wing.
I wish I could be a fly on the wall as the retired Russian engineers who designed these hear you sing their praises and a single tear comes to their eye... to hear validation from the Main Enemy - the highest praise a Soviet engineer could hope for
I'm sure they were just grateful not to be purged
@@nahyeahwhatsahandle o
The praise is well deserved. The Alpha was a very bold leap in submarine design, performance and operational automation. Na Zdorovie !!! ^v^
Have you ever heard of a Soviet engineer praising anything made in the west? Their fighter aircrafts have been decimated in each and every battle after cold war. The F15 became a MİG killer with a final documented and devastating score of 104:4..
Also this sub has failed to make any difference. Design was revolutionary? yes probably but in all other areas far behind US/UK technology, especially in reactor, noise reduction and sonar. Discontinued after enormous technical problems. Russian subs are known to be death traps.
@@barracuda7018 the moral must be difficult to keep up for the soviet state.
OMG! I just cannot get over how you're sub experience contributes to you're video insight! It's incredible brother...
Broke down and joined the channel, this stuff is just too good to pass up! See you all in the live streams.
Was this the sub that only had one port it could stay at for any extended amount of time because if they went in anywhere else they had to keep the reactor running so the coolant wouldn't solidify while in port? I think I read somewhere that their homeport had a dock where they could hook up super-heated dry steam to the sub allowing the reactor to be shut down. The shore supplied steam was used to keep the coolant liquid.
You are Correct
They never shut down They were based in a number of places
The German Type XXI already had hydraulic retractable bow planes in WW2.
Finally sat down and gave this a listen. I love this so much dude. You truly are one of the diamonds on youtube. :D
Really appreciate the last few minutes' insights.
Unofficially, their crews used to call them "automatons", or "robots".
Man these are so good!
Glad you like them!
Nice to know that while the hunt for the red october mentioned the first alfa suffering an accident, the real one's fate isn't as tragic as the one in the novel.
Let me start by saying that this series is one of the best things I've seen on CZcams. Very in-depth and easy to understand with no chest-beating nonsense. As neutral a point of view as you could wish for.
There are just a couple of things I'd like to say.
First, there is a very significant difference between "Russia" and "the Soviet Union". Americans use the terms interchangeably and they're not interchangeable, as has become very obvious since the break up of the former Soviet Union. I know I sound like I'm being pedantic but, for someone who has read a lot of Russian and Soviet history, it's a big factor for the republics which made up the old USSR.
Secondly, the Soviet Union did not collapse. You didn't actually say this but it is another common misconception. The Soviet Union was broken up - basically under the cover of darkness - by Boris Yeltsin and nationalist politicians in the republics in 1991. He did this without the knowledge of Gorbachev, who was still trying to build a new democratic and very liberal Soviet Union which would have western style elections rather than the sham process that exists in places like modern day Russia and Belarus.
That communism and particularly communist hegemony in Eastern Europe collapsed is not in question. But the economy did not collapse - sick as it was - nor did social order and the Union did not break up because of either of these factors.
Finally, while the cost of maintaining such a large military fleet was extremely high and a definite factor, it was not by any means the only one. The cost of the war in Afghanistan, the lack of economic progress in the 1970s and the lack of income from Soviet client states were all major factors. This particularly included the lack of payment by Eastern European countries for the oil and gas resources. Those countries were flirting with the West and their currency exchanges did not leave enough space for payment, despite Gorbachev constantly extending payment deadlines. This was the largest source of income to the former Soviet Union.
This is just a bit of background and not intended to be a criticism of your videos., which are the best on this subject that I have seen by a considerable margin. I'm still working my way through them but I've enjoyed every one of them.
Thanks.
Back in the 70's, on the SSN-680 our Captain described Soviet boats as "freight trains" underwater. Keep in mind, it's one thing to outrun another boat, and quite another to outrun its torpedo.
For a while the US had no torpedo that could keep up with the Alpha.
@@egoalter1276 The Soviet submarine K-222 is considered the fastest manned submarine in the world, reaching short speed bursts of 44.7 knots / 51.4 mph) in 1970
The U.S. Navy’s Mk48 - the standard heavyweight torpedo - makes around 55 knots / 63 mph, Operational since 1972
@@Desertpagan Which means there was about a year where the US didnt have a torpedo that could catch the Alphas and Sierras, and another few years where they didnt have one which could dive deep enough.
@@egoalter1276 And we both know the U.S. and Russia never exaggerate the capability of their weapons. . .
@@Desertpagan Russia often does, US tends to understate. But we have measured speeds for both Papa and Alpha, and the M.46 speed is still classified, officially given as "more than 28 knots" even for the ADCAP.
Brilliant as usual, thanks. I wondered about the difference between the 2 variants... love your personal recollections as well. Fascinating stuff. Cheers!
Awesome, thank you!
The Main difference between those 2 variants ( I think the first 3 boats was 705 and the other 4 was 705K ) was a change to the reactor design, OK-550 then BM-40A for the K`s. Still Lead bismuth cooled but changed with less pipes and routing.
foot note info from the Book: Cold War Submarines by Norman Polmar and K.J. Moore
Love these videos! Thank you
Awesome job man love these
I've been waiting for this. Thanks for the great vid.
Hope you enjoyed it!
@@SubBrief Rodger That Sir
God damn it!! I want the safety ranges set to zero now!
Sounds like an excellent way to ensure a weapon explodes in one of the tubes, OR it loops back and sinks the submarine that fired it.
The hard part
about playing chicken, is knowing when to flinch.
You arrogant ass, you've killed us.
Liquid metal coolant, and an escape pod?? Seriously cool stuff!
Man, that’s how the diesel electrics stayed in operation in the 60s was the crew scavenging parts off other boats The idea being if the boat was not operational the crew was finished.
Holly crap! Titanium hull? That's a lot of Ti! My Ti bicycle frame was $2,000 plus! I can not imagine the cost of a Ti skin for a sub!
Consider the fact that Russia virtually owns the Titanium Supply of the world it's not as big a deal that you imagine. When the US was building the SR-71 Blackbird the titanium was procured through a series of shell companies buying the titanium from Russia for the project...
Thank you for the upload, fascinating content. These boats rightly so sounded like finely tuned F1 card with the maintenance overheads to match!
I really love this format were you go into the history of these subs!! All the ones you have done on the Russian subs were really awesome!! I have watched several times now!
Absolutely brilliant, thank you for creating the content you do! :3
That rescue chamber is very interesting, I had no idea any military subs had escape pods.
Pretty much all Russian subs do
I didn't either until I watched these vids. Other countries should do the same.
A bit offtopic, but not totally unrelavant: the ejection seat is a soviet invention.
@@juliusraben3526 I'm pretty sure it's a german invention for the first jet planes during WW2.
@@valentink487 The story goes that it was invented because the test pilot of Heinkel HE 162 refused to fly it because of the engine placement. So they equipped the seat with four compressed air pistons, one on each corner to pop him out and clear of the engine's air intake.
I don't know if it is true, but that's my two cents.
So glad this submarine lived up to my dreams when playing Harpoon. Such a cool machine.
Another excellent brief. Thanks so much
Glad you enjoyed it
Thank you you for the free content !
Other issues were that the crew had no promotion opportunities as it was just a small group of officers. Also the small crew meant that ANY battle damage or accidents meant you found it very difficult to cope.
i'm curious what their damage control ability was like. i can't imagine 30 men could do much to fight fires/floods and effect damage control at the same time, especially if 8 have to be manning the con.
These videos are so f**king educational. As a kid, I thought watching a docu on Discovery Channel had a lot of information... Was I wrong. I love to watch these Sub Briefs. I became a Patreon supporter to watch them but watching them on CZcams is so much more comfortable for me, but I am still a Patreon supporter. :D
Tbh CZcams channels like this wipes the floor with 95% of the old Discovery shows (i still like the old Wings of Red Star show narrated by Peter Astinov, but the most havent aged well)
The great benefit of the past 15 years has been the enormous growth in what people present on YT, the amount of research that is done and available and the affordability and quality of camera equipment. You look at some of the old documentaries from the 90s and it just seems like guff compared to what's out there now. You have people like Forgotten Weapons and C&Rsenal delivering way more information than Tales of the Gun (and then still pointing out they are just aggregates and to go read books to get more), you have MHV and MAV or The Chieftain offering real insights into WWII, The Tank Museum is offering the best bits of the old WWII documentaries (i.e. the talking about vehicles) as a separate format online and then there's the host of more broadly enjoyed documentaries out there on just about anything you could think of. For as much at YT as a company is a shithole full of angry vipers on DMT, what it's allowed to grow in terms of entertainment and information is quite astonishing.
I take it your a patreon supporter
This was a really neat video, fascinating stuff.
Beautiful presentation, really interesting topic!
For the longest time id grown up thinking the Lira was the small, low cost compliment to the Shchukas, a compromised design favoring speed and depth. As it turns out thats pretty far from the case. There was a whole lot of ahead-of-its-time here. It seems Malakhit had a lot of leeway to pack this thing with novel and advanced technology. I fjnd it fascinating that technological conservatism was pretty strong in many sectors, but in submarines out of the box thinking seemed encouraged.
TBH, Russian aircraft design is everything but "inside the box".
If you ever want to do a story on the Victor III that the USS McCloy FF-1038 snagged in the Caribbean north of Cuba PM me. I have lots of info that would make it a great story.
I would love for jive to do that. Sounds very interesting
Oh please, yessss
I really enjoy your videos, keep up great work!
extremly interesting. thank you
ADCAP the lesson is that it is cheaper to build a fast deep-diving torpedo than a fast deep-diving sub.
ADCAP the lesson is that it is cheaper to build a fast deep-diving torpedo than a fast deep-diving sub.
@@WildBillCox13 Still need to get in range. and range is lower due to target being fast.
In Pacific from 77 till 82, don't remember any Alfa coming south of Alaska. Just like they almost never come south of Iceland. I think due to Sosa the saying was 'Detection range limited only be the size of the ocean there're in". Thanks to the Walker Clan.
I think all Alfa subs were in the Northern Fleet
@@AlexDemidov I think your right, Were you in the other side of the game?
I get so giddy when I see a new sub brief upload.
Great work !!! Sunday morning first video
One of my favourite subs, a really out-there idea and a revolutionary design. I'm a bit of an air defence tragic so I guess it figures I'd love an underwater interceptor so much.
Also - just use the Russian abbreviation, Sevmash is a lot quicker to say than N 402 :v
Best sub in the world when it comes to maneuverability, probably the fastest on his class, and with technological components decades ahead of everything the West could build....
All this should be viewed again and again by all those brainwashed muppets wh still believe in the myth of "al russian navy was crap compared with the US one" !
Congrats to the Sub Brief here, for this great channel, probably the most unbiased in the Tube and one of the best - if not THE best .
Thank you man, for your passion, efforts and work to make all this available online.
That was very informative, thank you!
The TRULY "revolutionary" thing of that project was that Titanium-built hull. It was a marvel of engineering technology - especially considering it was done in the 60's-early 70's era and frankly - up till this day I don't really understand how did they do it. Titanium is a nightmare to work with. It may have have been "loud a.f" as the Americans said, but that wasn't much of a problem for Ivan - it could reach over 42 knots of speed - it was faster than any torpedo the NATO had in their arsenals of the time - couple all this with the fact it could go under 900 meters (probably much more!) - way below any operative depth of any Western sub or even operative depth of any WEAPON ... so - yeah! ...when it came out, NATO commanders at sea had a reason to worry. What's the good thing of being able to track something when you cannot really kill it? It could be destroyed only from ambush-situation - close range and fast enough not to give the time for the crew to react, but that's easier said than done. From the NATO perspective the only positive thing was that it was very small. I don't think it ever carried anything bigger than those 533mms tubes.
The Army I think was really regimented and not allowed to think out of the box.
The Navy was totally different thing.
The one we've all been waiting for!
Fascinating stuff.
Thank you.
Kremlin: _So, how's the new submarine project, comrade?_
Admiralty: _Its going quite well._
Kremlin: _And the reactors?_
Admiralty: _Hmm, they're OK I guess._
I guess you're too young to remember how it really sounded in the CCCP in those days:
Kremlin: Is the new submarine project advancing according to the time plan?!?
Admiralty: YES, COMRADE GENERAL SECRETARY!!!
Kremling: Are the new reactors, the pride of our nation and Socialism, ready for service?!?
Admiralty: YES, COMRADE GENERAL SECRETARY!!!
;)
Great video, thank you! And yes, the Alfa was a fascinating and groundbreaking project.
About maintaining a fleet is more difficult than building one. What happened in Russia hasn't happened in China, so I'm not sure how relevant that is. Just a reminder: The Soviet military budget was 250 billion in 1988. In 1991, there was no budget; in 1998, the Russian military budget was10 billion. That's an economic massacre. That is the single absolute reason for the fate of all these Soviet-era projects. It went from top of the world to unable to maintain the stuff it had. Halving the budget would have been disastrous, but this was a 25th. It is now back to about 65 billion, but Russia is no Soviet union. You could say they are now a lot smarter and effective in how they promote their interests internationally, but that's another discussion. (Ref: Mueller, Brexit, etc.).
For comparison, Colombia, Angola and Oman have roughly the same military budget Russia did in 1998. That's... they're not bad countries or anything, but they are not military superpowers, or aspires to be.
Even just before it collapsed, the Soviet Union was the world's second largest economy which Russia isn't even in the top 10 at the moment. Also a lot of the engineering talent and the specialised production facilities for Soviet weapons and systems were located in countries like Ukraine and Belarus, so Russia had far less capability to build and maintain these advanced weapons even if they'd had the money to pay for it all.
Very interesting presentation from an actual nuclear sub experienced seaman! Thank you very much!
A truly fascinating video thank you for sharing your knowledge
I wonder if France was interested in K373's reactor to study for their own fast reactor designs. Especially decommissioning.