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Finding the maximum effective range of a civillian flintlock smoothbored gun
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- čas přidán 2. 09. 2020
- In this video I was trying to answer a question that has been on my mind for some time.
That is, what is the maximum effective range of a civilian smooth-bored gun, as it would have been loaded and used by a colonial militiaman or frontiersmen during the French and Indian Wars, or during the American War for independence.
This video is a pretty long, and there is a lot of background noise. I apologize for that.
Mike Beliveau links:
mikebeliveau.com/
/ duelist
teespring.com/stores/duelists...
You've really opened my eyes about smoothbores. From a small boy i was always told they were useless after 20 yards
We’ll just pretend that the turnpike is the river flowing 😉
Tyler Fields Thanks!
Just pretend its early in the Revolutionary War, and that’s the sound of English Cavalry running down the Continental Army. Lends a sense of urgency to your reloading drills.
duelist1954
I’m new to smooth bore, I was wondering if fiberglass insulation could be safe for a replacement for Flax tow? It’s getting pretty dry ‘round here, I wouldn’t want to set a bean field on fire
Nick Groves I honestly don’t know...might be a bit rough on your bore.
duelist1954 is there a way to make tow less flammable, something I could soak it in and let it dry? Thank you, I love ur presentations, been watching for years.
A close miss is still effective - it will force the enemy to seek cover or run, or stop to return fire, or charge. Also, when firing at formations of men several ranks deep, missing the front man is not a miss against all.
Mitchells writing during the Napoleonic Wars noted that beyond 300 yards shooting at formations would be little more than a waste of powder if only because the soldiers were so inadequate at shooting!
Lindybeige not always. Read about Rodger Young and his MOH citation.
Not necessarily, military discipline does not allow those things. Stopping, running, seeking cover, etc. are acts of cowardice and will be treated as such. You must do as your officer commands. The line must hold.
Didn’t expect to find lindybeige here
MOH is awarded for acts BEYOND THE CALL OF DUTY. Young’s Officer called for the troops to fall back. Young went forward even though he had been hit in the first burst.
Great video. My flintlock looks almost identical to yours. Generally I shoot a .60 cal.round ball with 75 grains for a 100 yard target and I get consistent 12 inch grouping. At the range, I shoot 60 grains for a 50 yard target. I get a consistent 6" group for 5 shots off hand. For the long gong (an empty oxy-acetylene tank hung in a tree) at rendezvous I load with 110 grains. I always shot 2F. The long gong is about 200+ yards and I can only hit it 25% of the time. It's been over 30 years since I've hunted with my flinter, but I generally wouldn't try unless the deer was within 50 to 60 yards. My hunting load was 80 grains.
I was a fair shot, but I was lucky to place in the top ten shooters at rendezvous. In colonial times most militia men grew up with muskets and had to successfully hunt to survive. They knew their guns well and what they were capable of. At 100 to 150 yards, I think there would have been very few misses. I haven't even been to the range this year because of the Covid debacle, but after seeing this video, I'll have to get out my flintlock and give it a cleaning for nostalgia's sake.
Enjoyed the trip back in time. Period firearm, tactics, clothing and eye glasses. Well done Sir.🇺🇸
...Mr Peabody's 'Wayback Machine'...
@@mohammedcohen 😁
Stainless steel wrist watch... 🤓
Very well done video! We all appreciate you posting this even with the noise. The noise didn't bother me at all, it was probably louder in person than in the video. Thanks for all your informative videos, your channel always has great content. I also want to add, that was some GREAT shooting! I've had some time behind smoothbores and you easily surpassed what I'm capable of.
Excellent video and educational as usual. Well done. Thanks!
I'd like to see this done with buck and ball loads, if memory serves that was a popular combat load for both sides of the 7 years war.
What is shocking is the accuracy and lethality of the old flintlocks. You could
deer hunt today with that weapon.
William Terivani-Lincoln MD many do, I know I do
@@heofthebee The muzzleloader deer season here is literally called "Primitive Firearm Season"it was literally put there to accommodate people who want to hunt with flintlocks. The whole high speed low drag stupid modernated "muzzleloader" craze is nothing more than a ploy to allow dickheads to ruin that season for those of us who want to actually hunt with primitive arms.
@@krockpotbroccoli65 I regret Thomson Center Arms not making them anymore
@@mattwilcox3645The Thompson Center ones were always cheesy, manufactured widgets. It's no surprise they discontinued them. Good Muskets always have and always will be a cottage industry. if you want a real flintlock you need to either build one yourself or commission one from an artisan gunsmith who can make one you.
Great Flintlock video!!! Keep the flintlock videos coming!!!! Would love to see some of your flintlocks out omg the range that we haven’t seen shot for awhile. Thanks again
Keep up the good work man. You consistently put out some of the most interesting content on YT and are really passionate about a niche subset of this hobby. You deserve way more subs.
that's some danged fine shootin' with that old smoke pole Mike!! I appreciate the hard work that you put into these videos my brother... Wade
Mike, thank you for both the great video and history lesson. It is always a pleasure to watch your videos. Stay safe.
I love the history that you put into prospective. Yes tactics and strategy and dates and places are great but as you just showed, if they are in range then so are you, that would be extremely intimdating id say. Thanks Mike
Great video. I have been using your loads for the starting point to. work up loads for my fowler. So far they have worked very well. Your loading information on using shot has got me two turkeys so far. They hit the ground and just barely quivered. Thanks guru Mike!
Good to see you again! Thanks for sharing
I'm late seeing this but what an outstanding video. Informative and the shooting with a smoothbore flintlock was great.
I paid no attention to the surrounding noise. The sounds of your smoothbore firing made it all worth it.
Very informative video Mike! I appreciate you making this experiment available to us!
I had this question for a while. Thanks for answering it.
Well done, Mike. Your videos are always a joy to watch and I always learn something that helps me with my own black powder shooting. Best wishes from the UK.
Awesome video, Mike!
Love videos like this. Thank you for doing this channel, I have learned so much about black powder shooting from your videos.
You did great under the circumstances Mike.
Improvise, adapt and overcome..! Keep up the good work.
Wow! A very informative video! It answers a lot of questions I had about smoothbore muskets. Very well done! I have to hit subscribe and watch your other videos. Thank you!
Completely enjoyed the video, & the commentary! Like the history and theories of the flintlock. Completely effective at 100yrds, believe they’d all have been hits on life size target. Thanks for this video. Best wishes!
first off, you sir, are a shooter. standing up, no rest and hitting the target with iron sights at 100 yards. bravo !
Maybe noisy, however very informative. Been wanting to do this myself. Thank you Mike. Fine shooting. Very fine.
Mike, That's a certainly good, fast ignition on that fowler. Nice job!
Despite the road noise (A minor distraction at most)....I really enjoyed this insightful glimpse into warfare from times past. Your observations and results really put into perspective the limitations our ancestors faced, when dealing with mortal threats. Whether from hostile natives, or invading troops. Well done, Mike.
Excellent video Mike. I’ve been preaching the naked ball concept to my Ranger company for a long time now. I’m going to make them watch the video.
Really cool and really interesting video...thanks, Mike!
Watched this video after watching your Brown Bess accuracy video. Looks like a tie at 100yds for effective shooting between these firelocks.
Thank you for another wonderful video.
Great work Mike really enjoyable
Stumbled on your channel a few weeks ago. Evidently we are the same age I enjoy just the facts and abilities of the old firearms. No bravado which is so common on many firearms channels. Keep it up.
Regards
Terry54
Very well done and informative.
A well built Pennsylvania Fowler is a very accurate weapon I had a friend build one for me and it was a copy of one in a private museum, not an accurate copy as I had him pot a jagger button and a loop for a sling on it so it would never be confused for the original. Yes I like your Fowler .
thanks again for another great video !
Wow! That was eye opening! Never imagined the humble smoothbore so effective at long range. Great shooting sir! Standing in rank and file the continental soldier could not feel safe at 100 plus yards. Great video, many thanks!
Mike I probably couldn't hit that target at 100 yards if I had a bench to rest the musket on, never mind off-hand. That is some dang fine marksmanship.
Excellent video. Very interesting. Thanks!
I can hear the traffic but at the same time I can hear you just fine. Well done!!
Another good video. Keep them coming.
Great video Mr. Mike.
Great information. Enjoyed this video.
First, excellent video and explanation of the realities of using a slow loading flintlock musket in a firefight or battle!! Read enough of the original sources written by those who participated in late 17th and 18th century battles and you begin to comprehend that getting those first volleys to count made all the difference in the tide of any fight/battle. Once one side suffered enough physical damage from a couple of good volleys, morale broke down and men started thinking of fleeing for cover regardless of their officers' commands.
Secondly, that is some damn fine shooting. You shot offhand from 100 yards with a smoothbore musket. That's no small feat as the inherent inaccuracies of that firearm as compared to a modern rifle are considerable.
This is truly classic research. Well done.
Interesting and enjoyable to watch! Thanks for your video!
Well done!
Very interesting test. Thank you for doing all this work.
Love love love! The Flintlocks!
Flintlocks! Meet the Flintlocks! They're the AR of the 18th C....
I would think the adrenaline of actual combat might have skewed the results a little bit. This would be more true for new troops than for seasoned veterans. You seemed way too relaxed while shooting. I think you need to repeat the test with a horde of perturbed lawyers bearing down on you, getting closer and closer with each miss.... Great content as always. I love the historical context and information. I always learn something on your channel.
Fun fact during the civil war (probably happened during the revolution also) soldiers typically panicked so hard when loading the rifle that they would end up shooting their ram rods at the enemy (don’t remember where I learned that but I guarantee it was this man or someone similar to him)
I think a horde of lawyers would be a great target idea!
@@herbertgearing1702 and he gets to shoot lawyers too. what is there not to like?
It needs to be done on the clock. Like figure out the timetable of a typical engagement of the period, use that as the par time and then set up a course of fire where you have to fire a certain number of shots at 100, 75, 50, 25 yards and you have to run between shooting positions. I think that would be the only way to have any semblance of accuracy in this kind of test.
I think the point of this test was to demonstrate that in ideal conditions soldier could achieve 100% lethal accuracy at 50 yards using the tools of the time. The beginning of his video was about a commander telling his soldier not to shoot until the enemy was this close. The idea behind this was that if soldier could produce 100% lethal accuracy at that range in training, then in combat they might be able to score a high % of disabling hits on enemies even if they were stressed thus making speed loading and shooting less of an issue for inexperienced troops. They probably hoped that 100% lethal would at least translate to 40% seriously injured in an actual battle this allowing a victory despite not having the best troops.
That was interesting. Mike thank you for sharing. That informative video. Joe.
Great video, loved the history. Just subscribed.
Thanks for the insights in to 18th century battle. An ancestor of mine from North Carolina enlisted in the revolutionary army the same day the Declaration of Independence was signed. He fought under Francis Marion and Nathaniel Green, fought at Camden where he was captured but escaped, Kings Mountain and Cowpens. He served for the duration of the war and received a land grant for his service north of Charlotte, NC. As a militiaman he no doubt used this type of firearm.
Holy cow! May i ask the last name of your ancestor? We may be related.
I enjoyed reviewing this video. 👍
Good job very instructive. I enjoyed it.
Thanks Mike, Very Entertaining Video! 👍🏻
Thanks Mike, Very well done.
Excellent! Thanks for sharing.
Great video Mike thanks.
I enjoy the brief history lesson at the beginning of your videos. Makes them even more interesting. The 110 grains of 2F is much more powerful than I see my friends loading in their smooth bores. Very cool indeed! I was impressed when I shot my friends, and hit just two inches right of bullseye at 50m. His smooth bore didn't have a rear sight either. But with a proper hold, it didn't cause any difficulty at such a short distance. Next opportunity I'm firing down at the 100m target. Very cool video. Also appreciate the time period clothes. Adds to the atmosphere. Well done!
Even with the road and airport noises your audio was easily understood. Well done.
Good stuff Mike! Thanks.
I thoroughly enjoyed this experiment!
Great video Mike, one could ponder if the measuring of powder was done in the heat of battle, these guys lived every day with these rifles and probably knew from repetition how much to pour in the barrel, with countless practice.
Love your channel Mike, but damn that highway is loud.
Good job Mike !
Great video, lots of good info thanks for posting 👍😁💪🏻🇺🇸
Even with the noise, still an enjoyable video, as always.
I really like the speed of your lock! It's obviously as fast a percussion rifle. How about a video of how you achieved this? A very nice video!
Very informative. Great video 👍
Very good work (and shooting) Mr. Mike!
Pity that nasty and loud motorway.
Very interesting! I once read of a mid-19th century British hunter in India, Frank B. Simson, who shot a deer with a muzzle-loading double-barreled 14-bore shotgun at 120 yards. He was shooting from a rest and the balls were patched. As you have shown in this video it was surprisingly doable. Mr Simson did acknowledge that he was a bit lucky though, and wished he'd brought a rifle, but made do with what he had.
The famous British hunter, Frederick Courteney Selous, also once shot a sable antelope with a 4-gauge smooth-bore elephant gun from 120 yards away, kneeling. As surprising as connecting at such a long range with the smooth bore was the fact that the antelope did not fall down dead right away; despite having a 1750 grain projectile travel through its whole body, it still managed to run a hundred yards!
Awesome! Thanks for this!!
Another great video Mike. Can't wait to get to the range and test my 69yo. Effectiveness with my TVM English Fowler.
Very interesting. Good video.
I was in a junior rifle club in the early 1950's. My grandad, a Kentucky recruit in the Spanish American War. signed me up for the rifle club. Thanks.
Well explained. Knowing how ones shot group tends to drift at longer distances, up and to the right in this case, could let one stretch the effective range out a bit further.
Mike you did great
Thank you for your video! Awesome!
Man, that range could really use a sound barrier of some sort. It would help mitigate The risk of stray fire going over the road too. The highway is literally right there. Very interesting content regardless.
From Gt Britain again, this is a superb video/review. I have worked out my optimum charge with a smoothbore .50 Percussion Hawken, sometimes patched, sometimes not. I use 75 grains of Black Powder either way of patching. Effective range, like yourself is 100yds. I seem to be conducting an orchestra with the barrel on a longer range, and miss all the time. I tried shooting at flint rocks about a average foot size at 100 yds a while back, and got fairly accurate results, but my eyes tired quickly. Great fun though.....!!!! thanks for the sound effects, marvellous racket...!!!!
'conducting an orchestra with the barrel', LOL, thumbs up!
Hello. Personal curiosity. What grade of powder are you using ? And what grades are available to you ? Swiss powder or other ? Cheers.
@@paulmanson253 Well now, as I am in Gt. Britain here, we have to undergo a monstrous amount of jumping through hoops simply to purchase a little Black Powder, and that is not cheap either. I have been lucky in past years to be able to freely access powder supplies etc, but that is in the past (companies gone bust). Nowadays one has to acquire an Explosives Licence first from the Police. They ask all manner of questions about usage etc, then the actual purchase has to be made, which involves tracking down a supplier first, then collecting it, or somehow a strange delivery gets into it......!!! It is weird in the extreme to be honest. I currently have a modicum of 'Black Silver' No 2 powder, and very few caps left, so I need to do the exercise again soon, or give up, which is really what the government want.
The pleasure one derives from watching the video clips of 'serious' gun making, shooting, reviews etc etc make it seem a worthwhile experience, however, due to age getting in the way, one maybe has to reassess ones priorities. I really envy America and its history, and current use of arms etc, it seems so.... well..... just lucky I guess. I have no real desire to get into re-enactment, I tried it once, a long time ago, I had a .60 cal Remington 'Zouave' for a time, but when I used it for target practice at a range that used to be about (bust again), they asked me not to use the gun again there because it was destroying the backdrop shield.....!!!!! So I gave it up to a guy who was ell into the English Civil War experience. Revolvers were another thing, then a Firearms Certificate comes into play, more hoop leaping, not that it was not worth it for the fun, but........ getting varied grades of Powder etc, and ball, plus patches etc is so very difficult over here, or was.... I gave them all (three) up when the powers that be banned small arms, it was just easier that way.. I have vastly reduced income these days, so something has to give, so I indulge myself watching others doing the suffering instead..... sorry, rant over..!!!!
@@keyote3 Yes. My heart broke when I found out pistols were to be banned and destroyed. Actually Canadian here,lived for a year in London,1979,and used to go shooting once a week at Bisley with a locksmith friend.
I had to sell my own firearms back in 2003,and what hurt the most was parting with the Luger. So I live vicariously with channels such as this.
It is good to know a few stubborn buggers still keep the flame alive ( literally) in the UK. I have often wondered if the Churchill family had to give up the Mauser pistol that Winston said kept him alive at (Omdurman I think it was) while he was in uniform.
At any rate,I asked about the details as I had a cap and ball Colt reproduction for a number of years. All the best.
@@paulmanson253 Aha, the Parabellum Luger. I tried one at the same gun club range years ago. I still bear a scar on my left hand forefinger from that. 9 mm if I remember right... I tried it when a chap from Harwich appeared one night. He later got a chain fire with an Italian .36 clone, it took his right hand fore finger right off as a result, I am not sure if they ever found the missing digit..... When the policeman (Firearms Officer) turned up at mine to check my weaponry for whatever reason later, he was so biased against guns it was unbelievable. It really got to me for a longtime and changed my pleasure quotient a lot........ take care and enjoy what you can..!!
Thanks Mike. Very informative and encouraging. I own a pedersoli 10ga with one modified choke barrel and the other is cylinder bore, so a 75 caliber musket. I have to see how it does at 100 yards now.
I think the other thing that spoils the 18th century ambience is the 20th century wristwatch, only joking. :) Love the vids, best wishes from (old original) England.
It wasn’t “luck” it was tactics. You are right that there was a slight shift away from individual valor from the medieval era. But this shift wasn’t towards ‘luck’ it was towards generalship and drilling. The unit that could get into position first and be ready to fire had the advantage, and the unit that was disciplined enough and lead well enough to fire at the correct range and gauge the opponents formation and tactics would win.
So in a sense it’s luck in that it isn’t based on individual skill, but the general who could command his troops could ensure victory.
It’s one reason when we hear the word “general” or “armchair general” we think of figures from this era.
Regardless… great video! Thanks for making it!
Very cool and informative vidja friend.
Great demonstration! It shows a militiaman with his trusty and versatile smootbore could be pretty deadly. Personally though, if I was going into combat with a flintlock I'd still want that bayonet option!
Very informative and interesting! Thank you. If your attackers we're in a line abreast, your 125 yard shots might have hit the guy to your target's left.
Vauban, (1633-1707), the great French military engineer who served under King Louis LIV, is generally considered the greatest engineer of his age. He built the unsurpassed scientifically designed fortresses in the star form. Into his calculation was the maximum killing range of the military musket. He insisted on defensive works in his construction that kept enemy infantry armed with muskets a minimum of 325 yards since that was the range that massed musketry would have enough hitting energy to kill defenders. We're not talking about sharpshooter accuracy at 325 yards, just a massed repeated rain of deadly lead balls. So, Sebastien LePrestre de Vauban referred to musket range as 325 yards. And he should know a lot better than any of us modern living history types. When asked what is musket range, I now state it at 325 yards since the projectile, shot at maximum elevation, will kill you if it connects with your weak flesh.
No matter what Vauban recommended, there's no way any calibre round smooth bore Musket ball will carry out to 325 yards even held at max elevation. Vauban must have been thinking Artillery prices.
Thanks Mike, nice demonstration. Similar results to others I've seen and not as bad as you described. Had you been standing opposite a British Square, all of you're shots, save perhaps that high one, would have hit someone, so all effective.
However the one thing that I hadn't thought of before is how close 100yds is when someone is running towards you and it may take you 20 or 30 seconds to reload. So no certainty that you'll be ready to fire again by the time they're upon you and without a bayonet to defend your self, the tendency would be to turn tail and run to survive to fight another day. Some food for thought about what we've always pecieved as the militia's poor performance in those 18th century battles.
You are describing, what we call in the infantry battle plan B, the faster you run the longer you live.😉
@@markdesjardins3153 never having served myself, I would have thought that plan would have been a bit lower in the order of battle. Perhaps C, D or E. Lol
When militiamen were most successful was when they were employed as skirmishers and marksmen, shooting from range and cover, avoiding direct contact with the opposition line of battle. Trying to use them as line infantry was not a recipe for success.
@@Matt_The_Hugenot I believe that Militia men with smooth bore muskets would be most effectively used enmass, which was what this video is about. Skirmishers and marksman were more likely to be men that had rifles, where their improved accuracy could be better employed and their much slower reloading times wouldn't be such a handicap and the order would be specifically to fire one well aimed shot and run. Sorry I can't quote sources, this is just info that I have obsorbed over the years from multiple sources, which seems very logical to me.
@@richardelliott9511 The first experiments with rifle equipped units in the British Army occurred right at the end of the 18th century partly as a reaction to defeat and experience in the War of Independence and partly due to improving technology. Prior to that skirmishers were raised from the best shots in line infantry and were musket armed or, like Roger's regiment, were recruited locally from loyalist frontiersmen some of whom may have brought their own rifles.
The French were quicker to adopt skirmish units than the British however they remained musket armed well into the napoleonic wars.
As Mike shows it was perfectly possible for a good shot with a well made musket to provide relatively long range harassing fire. The introduction of rifle trebled the range at which this was possible.
interesting vide. that freeway, you can clearly see the cars over your shoulder, pretty close for sure. I would have been a deserter, ha ha, in
the period you talking about.
Great vid! Would love to see you shooting while under stress though to see how much the results might be skewed.
K Z next time I’ll try to find someone who is willing to shoot at me.
A realistic test. Thank you. The smoothbore musket will shoot even better with patched ball and a tree rest, never mind adding proper sights. Formidable.
And also you did very well for off-hand shooting at 100 yards for anyone!
Nice job, thanks of for the factual data.
Very informative, thank you
I really enjoy your videos. I have a 32 inch trade gun and I’m a living historian. I portray a Muskogee Creek Red Stick. If I’m allowed to make a suggestion, I’d like to see what you could do with something similar using wasp nest as a patch. History suggests that was the most common item used by the Southeastern natives.
Informative demonstration. I never knew of the "patchless" ball shot, but it makes sense of what actual combat situations would make a soldier do. If he stood his ground for two shots before fleeing; I don't believe a "retreat" would occur when you can flee back behind a line of Regulars.
Not sure how this ended up on my recommendations but I'm glad it did
...loading with 'bare balls'...don' mean the same thing it once did over 200 years ago...
Better than I thought it would be....👍