where are all the butch women in media? // female representation chat
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2018
- Have you ever wondered where are all the butch women are in our media and why can't we give them justice? Me too!
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If these walls could talk 2
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The L Word
Lip Service
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The Difference Between You and Me by Madeleine George
Girl Mans Up by M-E Girard
The Night Watch by Sarah Waters
Patience & Sarah by Isabel Miller
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I completely forgot about Negasonic Teenage Warhead so YOU CAN DRAG ME FAM. I deserve it!
As a fat black butch lesbian, I rarely see myself represented in media. I love the movie Pariah, which is about a black lesbian living in the Bronx, coming to terms with her identity and presenting more masculine in a homophobic environment. I definitely recommend that one! It's sad, but no one dies and it does have a happy ending, in my opinion at least!
I loved your point about straight people sexualising feminine women and lgbt women sexualising masculine women. That's something I've never thought of before but it makes so much sense now! Also, as someone who does not quite fit the more aggressive and confident ways butch women are usually presented, I have had a hard time embracing this part of my identity because I didn't believe I could be butch while still being a soft and emotional crybaby. I wish we would see more butch women who are nurturing and vulnerable, who struggle with self doubt and self consciousness. Thank you so much for making this video! I always love seeing others stand up for us. Unfortunately, I have been confronted with too much hate from within the community so I'm really thankful!
We need more masculine lesbians in movies now
we need masculine lesbians everywhere✨
@@BooksWaffles they are everywhere except in the movies
So many great points! One thing that really bothers me with butch characters, is that they are almost always straight. And people defend it, saying it's challenging stereotypes, and somehow more progressive than if they were queer??
I agree! Butch women are incredible and deserve representation
The juxtaposition between the stereotype of the butch lesbian to actually being a butch womyn in the community (speaking!) is stark.
Also speaking as someone attracted to other butches, butches do not inherently deny their femininity. We display it differently, and yes, perhaps sometimes less than our masculinity. That does not diminish us!
I have never felt represented. I’m determined to fill the holes with my writing and art because I’m sick of waiting for someone else to do it.
i’m watching this 3 years later - how’s your art coming along? even though I’m not butch, i’m a lesbian who supports butches & i’d love to check out more media that includes butches (especially made by one)!
I really appreciate the thoughtfulness you brought to this topic.
I am 64 years old, and I think of myself as an organic feminist. By that, I simply mean that i feel that all women should have certain fundamental civil rights and it is problematic to me that in the US, Congress has not ratifed the Equal Rights Amendment, and that the state of Texas has regressive abortion laws. But my feminism never did gel well with the second wave of feminists view of us masculine women. I suspect that this particular “oil drum” of feminism has leaked it’s view of the butch as a “political liabiity” onto the subsequent art that we currently see.
Great topic.
This was a really really good video with great points. At lady's night at gay clubs, it IS mostly masculine women (and the straight dudes who stand there looking confused XD).
And I hear so much mean crap towards butch women as if they should have to pick between their masculinity and their womanhood X(. Total crap.
I feel like, from queer women, it's a lot of overcompensating. As queer women, they don't want to feel confined to gender roles, and blaming butch women for making a different choice from them is always easier than using your brain to make your own choices. It's frustrating to see.
I'm taking notes!
The problem it seems that people who create it seems were never at lady's night but they've had fantasies about it ugh! True that. Being under the same label makes people freak because if someone is not what they are does it make them in the eyes of others the same. That's a problem of small communities including LGBTQ+ community. Also in conservative countries like mine women sometimes will refuse to date butches because it makes them immediate targets - two feminine girls can pass as friends.
Completely agree with this! I know this is a couple years old and you may very well know about all these shows that have come out since, but there've been quite a few semi-autobiographical shows that have come out which are written by butch or androgynous women and so are much more nuanced and authentic: One Mississippi, Take My Wife, Feel Good, Twenties, Work In Progress. I prefer some of these (OM, FG, WIP) to others but it's great that we're getting these now. I also think the portrayals of Finley in L Word: Gen Q and Syd in I Am Not Okay With This are portrayals of androgynous women/girls which don't reinforce certain stereotypes. Gentleman Jack is another one, though I'm more conflicted about it - on the one hand, Anne Lister's behaviour imo can be somewhat predatory. On the other, from what I understand of her, this is an accurate portrayal and it does feel nuanced.
Thank you so much for making this video! I rarely see butch/androgynous lesbians in film or books. I was also surprised, when I first started going to lesbian bars and events, how prominate they actually are in our community.
I am currently working on a novel that features a main character that is androgynous and I was amazed how misread she was by my beta readers. Everyone asumed she was fem. It was like it was inconceivable that a women could be masculine, nurtering and monogamous at the same time. Needless to say I am now reworking my writing to ensure she is correctly read as masculine without losing her other traits.
I am surprised that this is not a much bigger hot topic and hope we see a lot more discussion and progress with it in the future.
-Hali
Pants and Pockets: On Butch Culture and Style, is a great plenary discussion it can be found here on youtube. It seems to me that the women in that discussion who all define as butch take these question you broach seriously. Each of them talks about taking women seriously, caring and nurturing each other, self and women's community. As well as displaying empathy and emotion as important and even pivotal in their developing butch identities. I too have struggled with the stereotypes and portrayals of butch women being portrayed as womanizers, devoid of interiority but just focused on motive and getting women however they can. But this discussion directly calls out these tropes and further adresses the invisibilization of butch women and women of color in the past and in other cultures. It is a wonderful way to spend 2 hours. So much so I've watched it twice. Plus they share beautiful personal stories of their own experiences and changing identities. Each points out in different ways how these stereotypes and tropes limit all women's full agency. I also recommend Vida. My long and involved response about how ground breaking this show is didn't post for some reason. Anyway, lets just say it is a beautiful and rare depiction of queer Latinx culture and family. It features a butch that is very clear about boundaries, and sees herself as a nurturing, self aware woman. Actually this description applies to both of the butch women in the show. It is a clear standout when it comes to queer characters. I can't say enough good about it. Also the Fun Home Musical. Again a supportive butch in a role that actively strives for efficacy, self awareness and connection. And I Love Dick offers a similar treatment-- with its beauty dance. In this role the character is almost seen as a sacred conduit that offers a bridge between the masculine and the feminine to men who have stood at the extreme polarity and might feel limited in their hypermasculinity. It is a complex and nuanced piece of work. Strangely Robert Colindrez plays all of these roles and kind of seems to have made a name for herself as a soft butch that takes up and answers these types of questions with her roles. No small feat. And she's super good at it. She helps us see ourselves as gay women, whether fem or butch with a more refined and kind lens. I'm here for all of it. Roles and scripts like these, help us to grow and see ourselves more clearly. Jill Soloway and Tanya Suracho are taking us to powerful places with these series. Thanks so much for bringing up these important questions. I think it is changing but there is a lot more work to be done. Hopefully these portrayals will become more common place and more women and queer directors and writers will help us see our communities and all the uniqueness and depth we are capable of. Fingers crossed.
Honest to god, i've always been so frustrated and confused because I didn't know how to identify. Thank you for making this. This clears up a lot of miscommunication. Now I can identify as butch!
your point of portraying butch women as players and sexualizing is really good! I had never thought of that before
I really enjoyed this video, Nicole!I recommend you watch Hannah Gadsby's stand-up, "Nanette" on Netflix. An amazing show, where Hannah tackles gay rights, masculinity, feminism and even throws art history into the mix!
I just watched it on Netflix! It's genius! The discussion self-deprecating jokes especially got me... I got so teary-eyed.
Yes, yes, yes, yes yes. Completely agree. This video was so good (could have been a bit louder!) but really thoughtful and well explained. I'm so sick of searching for TV shows/films with butch characters and being so disappointed that there are so few. ♥ Question, why was Erica Linder's character in Below Her Mouth a problem? You explained a bit, but maybe you could go into more depth. I get that she's a pretty un-emotional character.
I’m glad you liked it! And I fucked up this audio for sure😬
Regarding Erica Linder’s character she was a variation of a “chaser” stereotype and she pursued the other characters even when she explicitly said no multiple times, so that’s my main issue.
This is really good content! I love butches. Subscribed!
Great video, completely agree! Just a heads up, the sound of the video is v v quiet
Yeah, I noticed after uploading but there's nothing I can do with it now. I think it's because my phone was on the bed and the sound got muffled.
No worries! You make some excellent points in your video, especially the one about law enforcement, never thought of that before. My personal rule of thumb in all media is MORE LESBIANS PLS
We need more of every kind true!
Hi. Really interesting discussion, but I had to plug my laptop into my stereo to hear it as after the intro music the sound went really low. You made me think about a topic that I've never really come across before, despite as a straight woman (I don't know if that makes a difference or not?) having met more "butch" lesbians than non in my own life.
I'm in no way an expert in "Queer Issues", or about media anaylsis overall, but I think that one of the reasons we don't see more butch women on screen is because the vast majority of the creators are (white cis-het) men... therefore the "Male Gaze" is at play here. Especially when it comes to demonstrative FF relationships they want to show... I mean we've all heard of one of the top straight male fantasies of seeing two women together right!
As a matter of interest, you mention Tasha from The L Word as being butch... again I'm no expert and it was years ago that I watched the show, but she never came across as that to me, but perhaps more androgynous.... so you think the two are the same or simillar? Or is that a completley different topic? And why was it a shame that her blackness was not explored more? Would that not have taken away from the more lesbian aspect of the show, or do you think it would have created more of a conversation about intersectionality, like Bette's storyline hinted at but never really addressed (that I remember anyway)?
And sorry, I don't mean to derail your conversation, but like a number of other issues, this one is simillar (not the same but simillar) to there being so few dark skinned black women# or asian males# shown as fully fleshed out and sympathetic characters, *especially* as romantic partners, (to anyone... male/female/other, black/white/other) on screen. This is of course changing now, but like all issues in western media, it's just not quick enough to be satisfying IMO.
(# Which is why both Danai Gurira and Steven Yeun as true love partners Michonne and Glenn get so much love from certain facets of The Walking Dead fandom, despite some incredibly bigoted and downright racist comments thrown their way or in terms of Danai/Michonne is quite often plain left out of conversations about the show and the main character who is her romantic partner.)
Yeah, yeah I know. The audio is muffled because I've put my iPhone on the bed.
I think that if you're not hanging out much in the queer spaces the only women that you'll recognize as queer will be mostly masculine women. It doesn't matter though because there are still very many masculine women who are queer so you're not incorrect.
It is true that high-budget media is hesitant when it comes to butch women in general since they want to appeal to wider audiences but in my opinion, it is a thing of the past. People no longer care that much if other women on screen are masculine. If you're portraying an f/f relationship it's already given that people who continue to watch aren't homophobic and won't mind a butch character. So they're not losing anything. They just think that they will. F/F relationships on screen are hardly pornographic so I doubt many men watch wlw films or tv to jerk off. They'll go and watch porn to do that. But people still continue to create for them and it's stupid.
Well, Tasha is masculine. We had never seen her wearing a skirt, she had a traditionally masculine job. In regards to her being black, it was discussed in a few episodes. We knew that she had other friends before she started dating Alice and it was implied that she missed them because of shared experience. Since she wasn't the main character they didn't delve deeper which in my opinion would've been an interesting discussion and potentially could enrich her character.
I agree especially in western media it's flabbergasting how little representation QPOC have! But I always loved Tasha
You make me want to watch the L Word all over again!...I'm going to try and get a copy of the box set used if I can. [Heads over the ebay] I remember being quite fond of Shane when I watched it first time round, perhaps because of her "aggressive male" countenance? It was just so refreshing to watch so many different types of women share the limelight, queer or not and have the men being the background for a change.
PS I hate zombies too! I watch The Walking Dead (it took me years to get to it) _despite_ them and because of the humanity of the characters... although as the show is now being torn apart by bad descisions, this is changing.
I didn't like the difference between you and me it was not well done and the pan girl was villainized kinda. i love erika linder (who is an actual real life lesbian) but i HATED her character in Below her mouth. Also it's a bad movie. The sex scenes are hot though so maybe skip around until you get to them lol. More recent good butch rep is Gideon from Gideon the Ninth