Pro MTB Suspension Setup (Bracketing Properly) | How To Bike Season 2 Episode 2
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- čas přidán 12. 06. 2024
- Pinkbike's Ben Cathro gives up all his tricks of the trade to set your suspension up "smoother than a well-oiled badger." We're still not quite sure what that means, but our bikes feel great.
Link to the suspension setup chart here: tinyurl.com/howtobikesuspensi...
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I've already nailed the part where you make a drastic change and realize it's bad.
I spent a ride bracketing my spring rate on a section of trail and ended up with significantly more pressure than I’d been running and it made a huge difference to the feel and performance of my suspension.
“Have your friend mark the stanchions with a screwdriver” 🤣
I found I had to use more pressure than i expected on the Kashima.
Excellent video, so many suspension videos out there but as always Ben Cathro does a great job explaining things and fun to watch.
New Season. This is awesome.
Good content, witty, and entertaining to watch .
Keep up the good work
I can't think of anyone I enjoy watching/listening too teach me about how to be better at something I love so much!!! Thanks Ben!!! Suggestion - You should have your OWN PODCAST!!! I'd be your first subscriber!!!
I've been trying come up with a good MTB spread sheet and here you have made one and shared it! I plan on using this quite a bit. Thank you for putting the work on this and sharing it.
Great advice, fun delivery… love it!
Hahaaa the screwdriver joke made my day 😂
Great vid, it does my head in how many people spend thousands of pounds on bikes and then can't be bothered to spend a little time learning how to set it up and just ask people on FB how they have there's set....
Getting my first full sus bike tomorrow after 2 years on a hard tail. Hopefully it comes out the shop with suspension ok, or I’m up poo creak. This is way too complicated for my 58 year old brain and I’ll need to watch you again and again. Thanks for the great video.
If you boil it down to just a few points, it ought to be adjusting one thing at a time, writing down your settings, and not acting with too much preconception of what you expect a given adjustment to change.
Everything to do with progressivity, volume spacers, etc, in regards to air springs, is to do with the way air springs operate. You are squeezing a given volume of air into a space that becomes smaller and smaller. Think about it this way: once you use up half the travel, the air must all fit into half the volume. Go three quarters of the way through the travel, and that same volume of air must be squeezed into half the space again.
If you fill up, say, 20% of the space inside the positive air chamber with a plastic volume spacer, you change the relationship between motion and air volume. Now, when you use up half the travel, you've squeezed the initial volume of air into a significantly smaller space thanks to that capacity being taken up by a volume spacer.
This is why more spacers = firmer suspension as you get closer to bottom out.
Coil springs, by comparison, are almost perfectly linear in their force-to-motion behaviour. Whatever force it takes to get the suspension to halfway down its travel, if you double that - you'll bottom out. The only way to change the relationship between force and travel is to change the spring. Squeezing the spring with the preload collar does nothing to change the rate of motion - all it does is stop the spring from moving until a given weight is put upon it.
In terms of rebound and compression adjustments - they do nothing to affect how much a constant force will move the suspension. Damping adjustments can be thought of as changing how quickly the suspension will get to the equilibrium point (where the spring force is equal and opposite to the load upon it).
If that's not already far too much to take in - the pressure you put into the shocks determines the static behaviour. The damping settings determines the rate of motion at either high or low speed (if you have both low and high speed adjusters).
Trying to firm up suspension that's too soft by cranking up compression damping will result in a suspension feel that is both limp and harsh, because you're relying too much on the dynamic resistance to motion rather than the static support of the spring.
These are some common scenarios and possible solutions:
Suspension sag is correct, but you are blowing through the travel a lot: Add some compression damping. If that negatively effects the ride, you may need to add volume spacers.
Suspension sag is correct but feels too firm: reduce compression damping
Suspension feels good when taking large hits, but gets chattery and harsh when going through sections such as rock gardens: you may have too much rebound damping, causing the shock to be unable to return to its full extension before the next compression.
You feel like you are getting bucked back into the air after taking a big hit: Not enough rebound damping.
Suspension doesn't bottom out, but there is too much sag/rides too low in the travel: Too many volume spacers, or you are compensating with too much damping.
If you've got a good shop, they should have no problem getting you setup to at least the basic 30% sag.
every manufacturer has a suggested starting point for their bikes
You're usually extremely thorough with even the physics behind everything you explain. This time around, I'm still left wondering what each adjustment really does. I know they might seem self-explanatory, and during testing we will get feel for each adjustment, but it helps to know what each of them do, to know what we're looking for when test-riding. For example, if we're setting low speed rebound first, it's better to be aware of when this comes into action, and how to spot the difference in adjustment. How to bike has generally been a guide that you can see being a complete rookie, and come back to see it as you progress, and still find useful stuff, this time around it doesn't feel that way
I think the point is less the adjustments and more the methadology. Plus all that matters is if it feels better or worse. You don't need to have explicit knowledge of compression (nor should you want it) to be able to tell if turning it more one way felt worse than before. With proper methods and bracketing, a complete novice given enough time can get a good setup. Besides, millions of articles exist if you want to get the ins and outs
loving the vids! what just came to my mind🤔 will there be the classic cathro vids in the upcoming dh season?🤔
Man, you succeeded as a human being !
Damn I spit coffee when you to use a screwdriver to mark the stanchion, well done lad!
oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, scottish guy teaching bike again!! I am so excited!!!!
Going in the order you said and fork to shock for example makes sense. Only you have to do it multiple times because your settings on one end of the bike affect your weight distribution which affect the suspension on the other end of the bike. And there is no one setting that's equally good on every part of a track anyway, it's always a compromise. I personally find that it kills the fun of a ride if I spend half of it twisting knobs and making notes. So I'm always on a good enough setting and nothing more. Admittedly these videos are a huge help getting from bad to good enough. No wonder pro racers have factory support though. Watching Dialed is fascinating but I don't want to follow their example.
I’ll need to save the videos for spring. Too much snow to learn anything new right now.
Cracking vid as usual, and remember kids...... write it down!
Legend 🙏
Thanks for the vid! I was getting so frustrated with the current shock and damper. I just couldn't get the two of them and me to work together properIy (ok, I'm not known for exessive patience) I was planning to switching to a rigid bike ;-) Now I will give us a second chance ;-)
Thanks dad!
Cathro is killing it. Where are Levy and Kaz, Tom and Henry?
I think the one thing to note is that lower PSI, lower spring rates, lighter riders generally are on the open end of rebound and compression. Higher psi, higher spring rate, more closed side and everywhere in between. Most Mtn bikers are 120-220lbs in general and the damping circuits range are made for those. 120 lbs means mostly open damping, 170 lbs middle damping, 220 lbs mostly closed damping. Is easiest way to find your clickers usually.
At just over that weight range, the only option for me is pump to the shock's max rated pressure and adjust the compression to fully locked or maybe half open. In a perfect world, I'd try for 15-20% sag in front, 10% in back as the front has the most travel.
@@sapinvathat is a written example of how not to set your suspension XD
Cool !
I agree with you : "I will suck" but ... doesn't matter :-)
That's the way I will take it, exactly with this exercice.
Thanks, that was a good advice.
❤😂
This video makes me want to road bike
I Just installed a Coil wjth Progressive Spring 11% F 9% R 😎 Totally Transformed My CF Warden I'll Never Run Air Shock again lol was At Whistler Ran AMAZING GoodTimes
If anyone in here is interested in suspension setup and related stuff I suggest you look through Dialed from Fox. Obviously it’s based on Fox products but Jordi makes things much easier to understand.
YESSS
Dude you had me freaking rolling when you said have your friend mark the stanchion with a screwdriver 💀 💀 💀 😂 😂 😂
If you need an adjustable coil spring for the shock go for sprindex man
Geez thats a lot of work
Thank you for this folks. For the first time I have a bike with high and low speed adjusters and…well…I’ve been ignoring them as it was too daunting! Now I have a solid starting point 👍🏻
Hi mate regarding the forks with the term 44mm rake. What is the rake on the forks?
I've never ridden coil, but I really want to try it, however it sounds so tricky to get right (and expensive, changing springs all the time during the process, especially the fork
Do you need to adjust to ride up hill I tend to lock the rear for climbing
I'm going to watch this and relax and enjoy. I just bought a Giant Yukon and I'm ready for winter. Suspension is already set perfect on it haaaaa lol 😂
What if my setup is good, not exhausting, quite happy for enduro, good for bigger jumps, but i have to work really hard to bunnyhop smaller obstackes? Should i speed up both front and rear low speed rebound? Thanks
Can ohlins take 220 psi in the fork huge difference from fox 38s 140 max psi
What's the best way to get a question through to Ben?
Where can I get the digging hat?
2:08 hurt my soul.
Curious to know why suspension brands always recommend starting compression clicks from fully closed? When the object is to run things (especially rebound) as fast as possible without pogoing? To me it feels easier to start fast and then feel when things are getting too slow, rather than the other way around? Def keen on your thoughts? Cheers! Braaaaap! 🤘
Counting clicks from closed is recommended because that's the 0 and its the same in all the units of the same model, going from open, there could be a slight difference, one fork could have 12 clicks but could be turned to 13 (most open) by tolerances in threads and whatever.
When testing, I'm with you on the compression(even tho I'd start in the middle, as suggested here). Starting with rebound full open is a crazy dangerous idea in my eyes.
Also. If you start to high, there is a chance of pogoing and therefore crashing, whereas if you start to slow, nothing really happens
Yes I 100% agree to both your points! But what I was getting at is the direction of adjustment. Of course you would start with a few clicks in. But in my mind it's more easily discernable to feel how much better slightly faster and more "fluttery" things are than being distracted by either slow rebound or too much compression. It's easier to "feel" what's better when things are a lil bit more towards the open end than towards the closed end. It's harder to detect with both slow rebound or too much compression which one is the root cause of the bad feeling ride quality. Whereas if you start from the lighter end of things it's easier to distinguish if it's rebound "or" compression that's giving you bad ride feel characteristics, hope this clarifies :)
@@jamiehamilton3253 It's literally just for measuring the settings. It does in no way imply how you should bracket or tune your suspension. You might go from 11 to 12 clicks or from 15 to 11. You're conflating some kind of strange tuning philosophy with how we measure suspension and rebound settings.
I like to start with everything open
But should I write anything down?
Preload has zero bearing on breakaway force. It adjusts ride height (sag), and you typically want to avoid it because it has no effect on spring rate. If you need a higher spring rate, preload does nothing (assuming a linear spring).
The only time the breakaway force would be greater with preload is at full extension, and even then, the spring rate is the difference between the main spring and the top out bumper, so net required breakaway force from the spring is essentially zero. (Actual breakaway force is not zero due to damper seals, pivots, other sources of friction.)
Ace
I have a Fox 36 grip damper, so only LSC and low speed rebound. While the ramp up on bigger features is great because of the tokens, i feel like it almost doesnt react on smaller bumps. Only thing i can fiddle with is the pressure or rebound, which could be the most likely?
If IT does Not Take small bumps Ur Low Speed compression is too stiff. So U need to Open lsc.
@@lakaldrak fully opened. Service time probably...
@@SidiNic what Psi u running With what weight?
@@lakaldrak 86 psi with 82 kg fully geared
@@SidiNic analog Bike or E-mtb Version? OK so i think IT depends what U Ride. I Ride GRIP 2 damper idk If thats gonna affect my Psi. Emtb Version 36. 92 Psi With 87kg ready and Zero token ( cause GRIP 2 With fit 4 i needed at least 2)
What shock pump is that?
I disagree somewhat with the statements on pre load. Too much preload can be an issue especially if you are running a spring rate that is too high for your body weigh. (i find lots of people do this because they are afraid to bottom out their coil shock) if you are running the proper spring rate you should wind the pre load adjuster in fairly far. This is to combat end coil effect, where the gring the end of the coil to fit on the flat collars of a coil shock. This end coil effect may lead to sluggish feeling in the initial stroke and rebound may feel to slow early in the travel. By running more pre load you are increasing the energy needed to compress the shock but also increasing the energy the shock will push back. If the end coil effect is present there is effectively some free stroke in the shock where the coil not effectively push back. essentially shortening the stroke of your shock 2-3mm. It may not seem astronomical but can make huge differences in how your shock handles. Don't be scared of pre load, do be scared or running a spring rate that's too high. Pre load is a tuning tool and bottom out bumpers are meant to be abused!
Yeah but bikes aren't, if you bottom out your bike a lot frame will snap 100%
val di sole avec un enduro c un peu difficile pour le speed par contre les réglages fourche et amorto tout dépends ce que tu veux faire avec le bike
I always go off of the recommended settings and usually change it 1-2 clicks in either direction and increase the pressure about 10-15 psi or 20 pounds above the recommended for my weight and only change volume spacers if something really feels off its entirely subjective my setup is far from the norm
Write it down... Works with everything from lasers to mountain bike suspension haha
Looks like Pitlochry
After about 3 years the last Keurig stopped working czcams.com/users/postUgkxBrV-RbF5Nk0Rlt9i15aao-YMzqzTG8Vf initially was able to unblock, however eventually we couldn't fix. That one was a replacement unit sent by the manufacturer after we had problems with our very first Keurig. This works fine (lol, at least for now) however I didn't realize the water reservoir was so much smaller than our prior unit. With 2 people having one or two cups of coffee each morning, it seems like I'm refilling it daily. Otherwise just happy to have the convenience of pod coffee vs. making a morning pot.
Wow, so many adjustments to keep track of, how can we remember all the changes we make??🤔
Why are Friday fails age restricted :(
Santa Cruz: They can’t deliver bearings. LMAO!
Whale oiled badger?
Ben>anyone else
omg screwdriver on kashima.. that hurt my eyes and my soul!
Just use a shockwiz for suspension setup works perfect.
Shockwiz doesnt work on Coil suspension, Rockshox suspension with Debonair Chambers and Öhlins due to their seperate Air and Ramp up chambers. So, yeah, technically you can, but a lot of people cant.
@@zwingler i have both Rockshock and Fox air Forked hardtails Shockwiz works fine whit the shockwiz.
@@Paganiproductions84 yeah, like i said, It works for YOU but its not a generalization for everybody.
@@zwingler Correct
@@zwingler most people here run air forks and or air shocks coil shocks are for motorbikes
and then you re ready for suspension service again
I understand how to dial in the rebound well now. But I still struggle with lsc? I don’t know what to feel for when trying to dial it in.
The amount of people marking their stantions with a screwdriver because of this video will likely be low, but not zero.
… or just use a shockwhiz
"tell your friend to mark the stantions using a screwdriver"
Stomach sag cause goose.....
Im opposite man..i will not write anything down
So....write it down?
Should I sharpen the screw driver? Seems like a nice deep line would be easier to see. Thank, Ben. Your the breast.
WARNING: Properly adjusting your suspension will make you loath shitty/different setups. You will hate riding any bike other than your own cuz it won’t feel “right”
Anyone else more confused 😂
oh god no - static sag is just that. Ride height when not moving. Don't ever use it to set suspension up it is meaningless
If you can’t measure it, you can’t improve it.
Instructions unclear. Didn’t write anything down.
This is fake. First make your entretien every two week or you will fell nothing good
Useless, just spend time. No one specific advice in hole video. Only literally how to turn knob and use notes in phone. What does rebound, when i need it slower? what is compession? How to use it properly? Different settings for trail and xc? And whats is going on races, need to change setting to more furm?
Most importantly. Suspension feels are ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE. “Dude your rebound is too slow”. Shut up.
I feel like everyone understands this concept much better in motocross. A bike has to be extremely messed up before people say anything because everyone understands personal preference
yeah but also if you know the person there's a chance they just don't know how to set it up and if you tell them that it's too slow or too fast it might help them feel more comfortable on the bike
Mmmm not really hahahhaha
Each sag has it’s own setting bracket
Pau has a roadie helmet in his profile picture you don't have to listen to him 😁