John Owen, Jeremiah 31, and the Relationship between the Old and New Covenants
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- čas přidán 12. 07. 2024
- Dr. R. Carlton Wynne leads us in a study of Jeremiah 31 and the relationship between the Old and New Covenants. In discussing typology and symbolism, Wynne describes the views of John Owen with a view toward understanding better several contemporary views..
Dr. Wynne is Assistant Pastor, Westminster PCA in Atlanta and Adjunct Professor of Systematic Theology, Reformed Theological Seminary (Atlanta).
00:00:00 Introduction
00:06:35 Jeremiah 31 and the New Covenant
00:11:09 What Is Not New in the New Covenant
00:18:28 Old Testament Types and Symbols
00:26:32 The Prospective Typological Aspect of OT Forms
00:34:03 The Connection between Type and Antitype
00:37:44 A Subservient View of the Mosaic Covenant
00:45:18 Types are More than Pedagogical Tools
00:51:52 OT Types Are Meaningless without Christ
00:54:07 Views on Obedience to the Law
01:00:33 John Owen on the Old and New Covenants
01:13:31 Christ’s Presence in Both the Old and the New
01:18:39 The Old Covenant Not Only Illustrates but Communicates Christ
01:24:11 Conclusion
This is Christ the Center episode 736 (www.reformedforum.org/ctc736)
![Two-Tier Typology & OT Salvation [1689 Federalism]](/img/n.gif)
Please keep these theological podcasts coming. I am coming out of Oneness Pentecostalism to Reformed Theology and stuff like this food for the soul.
Oh and Reformed Forum has free classes on their website. Check that out too.
Praise God!
Would be awesome if Reformed Forum would get Samuel Renihan and discuss with him Particular Baptist covenant theology. He has a lot to say about typology and its importance to covenant theology. Would be a fascinating discussion to see both views side by side.
Patrick Fairbairn of the Old Free Church is excellent on typology, too.
Good stuff. I enjoyed the down to earth conversation in the beginning as well. Soli Deo Gloria
Tremendous discussion!
Awesome
I love this.m
The Mosaic Covenant is full of Gospel. In its more complex sacrificial system it advances the OT understanding of the Gospel. It's difficult to see how it can be a Republication of the CoW. Also, although the New Covenant can't be broken in the way the Mosaic Covenant can be, so that it can be replaced, in the New Covenant God can bring judgements on not only individuals, but also congregations and denominations e. g. Revelation 2:5.
This was good!!!
What paper is discussed?
Newbie here. Fascinating stuff guys, thanks. My question is: what was the role of the Holy Spirit in the salvation of OT saints? If the Spirit did not begin His permanent, indwelling ministry until Pentecost, what was His relationship to OT saints and in what way were they "saved"?
Thanks again!
Check out their free classes on their website. Super helpful.
Read Chapter 7 of the WCF on covenants , particularly paragraph 5 is helpful to your question .
Grace&Peace
@@jgeph2.4 I will do that, thanks.
@@vanessaclark6761 you’re welcome . You wouldn’t happen to be from South Jersey would you ?
@@jgeph2.4 No. Southern California 👍
If one component of the newness of the new covenant is regeneration, can we say that the OT saints were saved without being regenerated? If not, how is regeneration a component of the newness of the new covenant?
When are you guys going to invite Samuel Renihan on?! It's wonderful to hear you discuss the Mosaic Covenant as a subservient covenant but you still have not quite fully grasped the 1689 Federalism view. Just invite Sam on already and have the discussion we're all waiting to hear!
PS I really appreciate the tenor of your approach to views you disagree with. That's why a conversation with him would be so good.
Can you make a presentation about Eternal Subordination of the Son or Eternal functional subordination of the Son? Thank you
At 46:28 I don't see the "conundrum" he is referring to.
A. The future provision from God is not necessarily arrived by the repeating of sacrifices (though that is a possibility) but is found in the OT prophecies of the seed of the woman that would crush the head of the serpent Gen 3:15, the future prophet who would succeed Moses Deut 18, the future King to sit on the eternal throne 2 Sam 7, etc.
B. A Jew would have faith in the future Messiah based on the prophecies above (and many others) while participating in the Mosaic covenant because it was an obligation. The sacrificial system was a requirement by God, so a Jew's faith in the Messiah cannot be separated from the sacrificial system. It was required by God.
New Covenant Whole Gospel:
Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by
husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)
We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Watch the CZcams videos “The New Covenant” by David Wilkerson, or Bob George, and David H.J. Gay.
Forgive me if i am misunderstanding what you are sharing here.... but it appears unto me that you are saying/teaching that the ceremonial "symbols" and "types" that were ever present before the citizens of Israel during the time of the Old Covenant, actually caused "some" Old Covenant members to experience or encounter the "eternal substance" that is now experienced by the "born again" saint who is now abiding by grace through faith in the finished glorious works of the resurrected and ascended Christ?
Does not Paul say the opposite of what you are saying here...."For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image (or substance) of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins....(Hebrews 10:1-2)
If I am misunderstanding you, please forgive me
they received Christ by grace alone through faith alone
@@pageegap1 Amen... yes indeed , but Paul is speaking of the very symbols and types themselves here in the passage I quoted is he not?
I also wanted to say thank you, for I have found this video to be the most charitable of all that I have watched thus far... as the measures of sincerity and sobriety you express here within the exhaustive paths by which you have seemingly walked down in times past to search out your particular position on how “as you say the Old Covenant “born again” believers were or should of been relating to and or experiencing the substance of The New Covenant whilst relating to the symbols and types within the Old Covenant.. yes I thank you for this video, and the Godly humble means by which it has been presented.
Although I agree with you concerning how the scriptures do teach that the seemingly small number of “born again” saints whom did walk the earth prior to the coming of Christ and the establishment of His New Covenant, indeed did experience (in saving measures) the New Covenant Salvific “substance” (The substance being the law fulfilling, sin defeating, sin atoning, resurrected and ascended King of The New Covenant, Jesus Christ).... yet I believe the scriptures are clear as I have stated above, that this “New Covenant Substance” was not ever to be found and or experienced “IN” and through “the symbols” and or “the types” within the ceremonial law of the Old Covenant in and of themselves, but was only ever and is still now only ever found in The King of the New Covenant, Christ Jesus Himself alone.
Therefore all the “types” and “symbols” that were in the Old, along with water Baptism/The Lord’s supper in the New simply have always and do always only ever POINT to the “REALITY”, yet Christ Jesus alone IS “The REALITY” therefore He ALONE IS “The Image/reality/Substance” of The New Covenant, and will share His glory with no type or symbol which simply points to Him.
A simple example of what I am seeking to communicate is this ....
An architectural drawing, no matter how glorious the 3D drawings may be, I am sure we would agree, can only simply point to and or seek to communicate to the beholders of the drawings of the glorious real image/substance/realities of the actual building itself, and therefore the drawings themselves will never in and of themselves actually possess the actual “substance” and or “reality” of what it will be like when someone is actually abiding daily within the actual reality of the new building itself.
And therefore once someone had by Gods Grace begun to live/abide in the “new house” which the drawings simply pointed to.... it would seem almost insane to begin to think that the person now living/abiding within “the house” would ever begin sneaking into their office by night, in order for them to begin going back to the original architectural drawings in order to begin using the drawings as a “means” to continue experiencing the graceful reality of living in his house??
I believe once the individual was “born again” and savingly began abiding daily within “the reality and substance of “the house” whilst dwelling in a land under the administration of the Old Covenant, they would of been filled with thanksgiving to gaze upon the drawings that originally pointed them to “the New house” of which they now walked/abode in daily....but yes “the born again” saint whom dwelt amidst the nation of Israel whilst they were "under the covenant of law", having been given the tutor, were most certainly aware that the drawings were indeed, holy, good and sacred, yet at the same time were fully aware of the fact that the types and symbols themselves were simply just that, drawings. And not the actual image/substance and or reality of the “New House” itself of which they now supernaturally by grace through faith did eternally abide,
@@hadeswhereisyourvictoryyes, he is. You’ll notice they don’t spent a lot of time in the text, it’s mostly theorizing
Regarding your statement @ 56:22, whereby you state "the notion that God would ever demand or be pleased with men`s outward obedience in any way contradicts all of Gods ways........and then it was said by Cameron, "when has that ever been encouraged"?
I have a question for you......
Would you agree that in the following verses, it is clearly revealed unto us that there was a degree of outward obedience that was "pleasing" unto The Lord during The Old Covenant....
Although at the same time, it is revealed that such outward forms of obedience in and of themselves, are dead in comparison to those living works that did and do now flow by Saving grace alone, through Christ alone in and through a Gospel believing, resurrected & regenerated heart that seeks the glory of God alone.
Therefore let us read....
Now as Jesus was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. You know the commandments: 'DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,' 'DO NOT MURDER,' 'DO NOT STEAL,' 'DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS,' 'Do not defraud,' 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER.'" And he answered and said to Him, "Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth." Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me." But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.....(Mark 10:17-22)
It does say that Jesus loved him...which opens the window for us to see that there is a realm of common obedience that did exist amidst Gods covenant people, that led The Lord to be in greater and/or lessor degrees "pleased" with unregenerate individuals and yes the unregenerate nation as a whole, whilst the The Old, Mosaic Covenant was in effect.
One of the more shocking examples of The Lord being in a temporal/common way, pleased with an outward act of outward obedience can be seen in The Lords dealings with Ahab...
"But there was no one like Ahab who sold himself to do wickedness in the sight of the LORD, because Jezebel his wife stirred him up. And he behaved very abominably in following idols, according to all that the Amorites had done, whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel. So it was, when Ahab heard those words, that he tore his clothes and put sackcloth on his body, and fasted and lay in sackcloth, and went about mourning. And the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,
"See how Ahab has humbled himself before Me? Because he has humbled himself before Me, I will not bring the calamity in his days. In the days of his son I will bring the calamity on his house.".....(1Kings 21:25-29)
And again we see outside His Old Covenant people, how The Lord also did grant greater and lessor degrees of "common grace" unto individuals and even nations when they humbled themselves "outwardly" to walk all the more outwardly obedient unto God.
"Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes. And he caused it to be proclaimed and published throughout Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; do not let them eat, or drink water. But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands. Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish? Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it."....(Jonah 3:6-10)
These three verses do reveal unto us, that since the fall, The Lord has and still does mysteriously continue to relate unto once born individuals and nations, according to their outward works, and in greater and lesser degrees grants common grace unto them according to His Sovereign will and good pleasure, desiring no doubt, in all long suffering that all men every where would turn from their wicked ways, in order that they would begin seeing their need for Christ.
And it appears that this "common grace" relationship was all the more graciously magnified and intensified unto the highest degree amidst His special, chosen Covenant people, in order to bring them unto Christ, to perform His miraculous Salvific work of regeneration.
Please note: In no way am I now seeking to provoke &/or pollute the air with that foul stench that does instantly begin to arise when ever any form of Pelagius / Aquinas / Arminius like ponderings of "prevenient" type grace may sadly begin to be exalted up before The Lord, within the minds of any and all such confused, humanistic, meditators.
come to the dark side of the 1689
The fact Owen takes the side of us 1689’s should say a lot! 😉