What Steinway Doesn't Want You To Know (Stein-Was)
Vložit
- čas přidán 17. 11. 2022
- Steinway has created a powerful marketing narrative that if even one out of 12,116 parts isn't from Steinway, the piano is no longer a genuine Steinway but a Stein-Was.
If their claim is correct, buyers will believe they can only purchase a genuine Steinway piano from Steinway & Sons and from no other seller.
However, if their claim is not true, a world of options opens up for the buyer (since over 600,000 Steinways have been made) that are simultaneously cost-effective without reducing the quality and authenticity of the instrument.
To learn more about these myths and misconceptions, check out our Steinway Buyer's Guide: www.lindebladpiano.com/learn/... - Hudba
The controversy in this video is about the brand name, not the instrument. Similar to the phenomenon of "The Vanishing Rembrandts" where some Rembrandt paintings were discovered to be only partially painted by Rembrandt, then finished by one of his hired pupils, and dubbed NOT a genuine Rembrandt, a similar brand controversy exists here. Over a period of more than seven decades, as a pianist I have played just about every brand, style, type, size and condition of piano ever made since the last century. I've played hundreds of Steinway
& Sons pianos. Each had its own characteristics and personality. Generally, there has been little consistency with the musical identity of Steinway pianos, except through their recorded sound, which was always carefully prepared. The Steinway factory makes the pianos, but requires the dealer's technicians do the final preparation before the pianos are sold or put into circulation.
Forget the brand for a minute and look at only the instrument. I've played some really awful old and new Steinway pianos. I've also played some Steinway pianos which I loved so much I wanted to steal them. The key to the success of any piano is not only the original design and factory assembly, but the technical care given to the piano after it is bought. In the basement of the old Steinway Hall in New York, there were a variety of concert grand model "D" pianos, which every great pianist would play before selecting one for a concert at Carnegie Hall.
Each "Concert and Artist" piano in their collection had different technical care over the years, and each was moved, disassembled, moved again, reassembled, then tuned, re-tuned and voiced. Pianos are in a constantly reactive mode, since they react to humidity, temperature, seasons and atmosphere. If a technician uses non-Steinway parts in order to make the piano play better, or sound better, it doesn't change the brand of the piano. Ask any concert-level piano technician. They often have to improvise using parts or techniques which they fashion themselves. Sometimes this works better than factory original.
Once, at a private piano shop I played a very cheap Chinese-made Pearl River grand piano, which impressed me as much as any Steinway, Bosendorfer, Fazioli, or Bechstein. The technician, who owned it, told me he had worked on this piano for over six months to get it to sound and play the way it did. He also admitted that it wouldn't hold its tune very long, and its action would become uneven within a week of regular playing. But, he proved to me that in the hands of a great technician, any piano can sound and feel great....at least for a short while. The world's fine pianos, Steinway certainly included, will be able to sound good and play well, and hold up over years, decades, and even into another century in the hands of skilled technicians or piano re-builders.
I also played the "Concert and Artist" Steinway model "D" # 503.....also known as Vladimir Horowitz' own personal piano. The "503" was touring around the world, being flown, trucked, moved, set up, torn down, stored, handled and played by pianists in many countries. I was amazed that this piano was able to play at all, given the amount of climate changes, moving, handling and rigorous abuse it endured over the years. Yet, with good technical care, it played very well and sounded good, even with replacement parts as they were needed.
I worked personally with Franz Mohr, Steinway's Chief Technician, and personal technician to Horowitz, Arthur Rubinstein, and many others great pianists. He told me that he often improvised all kinds of things to the "503" in order to get it to sound and feel good to the maestro. Was it Steinway? of course it was !!
A final note about the pianos heard in this video. Most of them do not have the characteristic Steinway sound, since all but a couple are very badly out of tune and greatly in need of voicing. They are also recorded with non-professional equipment in rooms which are not acoustically welcoming. The authentic "Steinway " sound is the sound of a model "B" (7 foot) or a model "D" (9 foot) grand.
These pianos are finely tuned and voiced before any recording is made, and re-tuned during the recording sessions. They are professionally recorded in acoustically prepared studios, often using several microphones, and often a bit of EQ and reverb added for depth. This is the sound we usually expect from Steinway, because it has been the most-recorded piano sound since the 1940's and 1950's when long-playing records first evolved. That same sound is recognized when hearing a model "B" or model "D" in person, but only after a fresh tuning and voicing.
Thank you from a non piano player
Thank you, this is all fascinating
Don’t understand the mindset of Steinway. They should be proud that their hundred years old pianos can be restored and work perfectly instead of bashing them. This is pure greedy and stupidity from their side.
I work with all three of these pianos on a regular basis and can attest that this video truly does show off the differences between these pianos extremely well. Bravo for such clear examples. My experience as a technician has overwhelmingly shown though that most pianists have an easier time connecting with Steinways. However, something that this video does superbly well is to show how each piano has its strengths and that the piece being played can dictate which piano sounds best.
There is an inherent clarity potential in a particular instrument. Technicians will comment on this as they wrestle with the "flesh and blood"of ANY instrument in pursuit of a tonal ideal. More than a couple of technicians have made very favorable comparisons between my little 1969 Baldwin L and a lot of Steinways. Side note, from an acoustics standpoint the L is the biggest piano I would want in a home. To me it's sad all the golden era Steimway concert grands cooped up in university offices...
They know the new ones don't equal the pianos of a hundred years ago, so are stooping to scare tactics. Similar to hundred-year-old houses; they cannot be made that way today. They are treasures from a time gone by, gems still shining today. 🎹
Some pianos grow from use, from the work done on them, even from the ambience of the room they have been played in. Sometimes the gems looking dull at first begin to glow over time.
Nice video but how about tuning the piano before demonstrating how it sounds?
Tell me about it! They were going on about how much they know about pianos and then their piano sounded like ass! 😂
I'm a musician, but not a pianist. As a vocalist, I can't go out and buy a new (or old) instrument. So I asked some pianist friends of mine about Steinways. All of them said Steinways were good pianos - particularly the ones made between the two world wars. They also said that current Steinways were great instruments but didn't have the same superior quality of those older instruments. They also said there were other brands out there to investigate.
My local recording studio has just bought a Steinweg 162. Looking forward to hearing it.
Must say that I don't particularly like the Steinways I've heard. Too metallic sounding for my taste.
Steinway's marketing BS is as bad as Debeer's "a diamond is forever" to discourage people from buying/selling on the used market.
That’s no different than any successful company’s marketing, isn’t it?
no. theyre worse. they lock children into contracts and make them promise never to play publicly on any other kind of piano , discuss any other piano, or lose their contract.
whats so sad is how steinways under 7' arent very good - and most people just buy the marketing hype.
Correct. For starters, most highly-reputable, professional rankings don't even include US Steinways amongst the "Top 5". (The top 5, in no particular order, are invariably: Boesendorfer, Beckstein, Bluethner, Fazioli and [Hamburg-made] Steinways). Sadly, the Astoria, NYC Steinways, while very good pianos, are simply not in the top tier - but the company does a supurb job of misleading the public otherwise! They benefit from their non-stop PR onslaught and overall "razzmatazz" - which ultimately has zero to do with quality of the pianos they're manufacturing.
Well I suppose this means even brand new Steinways are "SteinWAS" too because even THEY don't use all Steinway parts in the building of brand new Steinways. They buy some pretty significant parts off the shelf and they're the EXACT SAME parts that go into many different brands. Ignore that "SteinWAS" garbage, just make sure if it was rebuilt, that it was rebuilt correctly. Lindenblad IS one of those companies that does it right. Oh, the other lie the dealers love to pedal is that Steinways always go UP in value, LOL!
The audio quality of some of these recordings is not very flattering to the tone of the piano.
Hard to tell Lindeblad's position from this video. Steinway's approach to this issue is extremely heavy into pure marketing, even propaganda. The assumption that only genuine Steinway parts are good enough is very much open to debate, especially considering newer technologies such as WN&G composite action parts. The claim that wood action parts are always superior, end of story, is a marketing move, plain and simple. I'm sure you'll hear all about that from any Steinway dealer. Steinway remains very much stuck on what they portray as their winning "traditionalist" formula but I fear may be falling farther behind the times vs. some other innovative high-end manufacturers. Unfortunately, Steinway has even tried to go after independent piano techs, telling them if they rebuild with anything other than "genuine" parts, they may not bill that piano as a "Steinway" when they go to sell it. Sorry, at that point it's out of your hands. Makes you look petty, too, fighting innovation and trying to protect some kind of faded glory. Meanwhile they have such a shortage of parts supplies that techs often cannot even get Steinway parts.
I agree most had a harsh brittle tone bordering on lousy.
Through an unexpected stroke of good fortune, I have an 1887 NY Steinway C in my living room -- never thought that would happen. It needs a lot of work, but I'm interested in what it still has. I'm keeping the soundboard, for instance, and duplicating the action parts and geometry.
I could go on and on about Steinway's weaknesses but the kool-aide drinkers would ignore it. There are many pianos which leave Steinwas in the dust. Mason and Hamlin comes to mind. The Steinway arrogance is striking
I've heard some really bad Steinways. On the other hand one of the nicest I ever played was Ellen Masaki's personal 1910 Model B which was completely rebuilt. She had the Steinway dealership in Honolulu for a period of time. I felt hers was the best one on the showroom floor. She said she would never part with it. The Honolulu Symphony stole one of her Model D's that she had loaned them. The Symphony went through bankruptcy and claimed the instrument was theirs which was false. I think the issue may have finally been resolved. but I'm not absolutely sure.
I miss Baldwin SD-10 :,)
Steinway salesmen refer to my Bechstein as a "piano-shaped object."
@studentjohn36 I played on a Bechstein last year and I would not mind having one, the tone was so beautiful
@@caper770 The new Bechstein grands post 1995 , made in Sefhennersdorf, are fine, But find a pre-1994 Bechstein in good shape and you shall experience utter magic in playing it. I had a real connection to Serial no. 161500 as a music student, whe we were supposed to be confing our practice time on the Yamaha U-1's in the practice cubicles.
What does he call a "Boston"?
@@JoeLinux2000In the past, so that authorized Steinway dealers would have a full range of pianos to offer, Steinway went to Japan and contracted Kawai to build a range of pianos under the brand name of Boston. Then they developed a third line called Essex. They went to the largest piano builder in China, Pearl River, and contracted them to build that. All of these pianos are based on design work that is proprietary to Steinway. Steinway even has their own staff at those remote factories that monitor the creation of those pianos.
My delivery address is....
Sounds like Rolex and their sales pitch.
Consider from philosophy the 'ship of Theseus: If a disreputable mechanic (shipwright) replaces, overtime, every piece of your car, despite the fact that the parts were not broken, and then uses those parts to build an entire car for himself, who then has 'your' car? Steinway would have you believe that it is only a Steinway when it is sounding its best, so that by definition, there are no bad sounding Steinways, because every Steinway transitions to becomes and Steinwas at the hands of 'non' Steinway technicians. Philosophy has that identity problem covered too by the concept of 'the transitional statement' which is illustrated by the Sorites Paradox, which states that it is impossible to build an amount the size of a 'pile' of sand if you undertake to do it one grain at a time, because if a single grain wasn't enough to turn an 'amount' of sand into something that then constituted a ''pile' at an earlier point if the building of it, then by definition it never could...and yet piles of sand materialize despite an accounting being made of the 'transitional' moment when that was made to happen by the addition of that declarative grain.
Just try rebuilding a Steinway with a few inconsequential non-Steinway parts, and put a different name on the fallboard, and see how the company would react! After all, if it's no longer a Steinway, it surely could be called some invented name.
are they having trouble selling Steinways now? there are several of these videos that look like fakery to bring back Steinways.
Steinway’s biggest competition is used Steinway pianos.
Does somebody say a restored Steinway is not a true Steinway? Why does this video exist? Arguing against a point that nobody has brought up.
A marketing company that might build pianos.
OK. I get it. It's a Steinway. But I've heard professionals say that no two Steinways are alike! So what's the point? There are probably millions of people out there that play pianos that are not Steinways and are perfectly satisfied with not having a Steinway name on their instrument.
Steinway pays the top artists to play on a Steinway.
@@JoeLinux2000incorrect. No sponsorship program exists for Steinway. Can’t say the same for other manufacturers. In order to become a Steinway artist, you have to buy a Steinway; they’re not given away.
This is a line of hype from the marketing department. The fact is, once a piano is sold it is basically of no value to them as they have made all the money off of it that they can make. More so now than in the past when the Steinway family was in control of the company. Fifty years ago I had the opportunity to tour the LS Starrett Company in Athol, MA (makers of precision measuring tools...some of which are no doubt used at the Steinway factory) The man leading the tour asked me if I had any Starrett tools. I replied yes and then he asked how many of them I had bought new. I replied none and he said "that's the problem, our biggest competitor is not tools made overseas, it's the tools we made forty years ago." They, like Steinway pianos, tend to be well taken care of from generation to generation and if repair is needed, their initial design allows them to be repaired. No planned obsolescence.
I have to say it, but the Yamaha sound is a more modern dynamic sound and they are on a good thing. The tone is still great. You can get a new Yamaha for the right price. No problem.
If a Yam was good enough for Svyatoslav Ricbter, it's good enough for me. Otherwise a Bosendorfer. Sod Steinway.
@@erikthenorviking8251 - OK on that. :)
One certainty about Steinway is that they are very expensive .... But I fancy owning one ;-)
Just get a good digital and use your money for something else.
@@JoeLinux2000 eww
The jazz player here has an instrument of which the hammers really aren't voiced. They're hard and ugly and the sound does a disservice to Steinway.
Looks like an ad to me.
Change the hammers to better hammers. Better Steinway. Strings scaled slightly different. Better Steinway. The Hamburg Steinway makes the N.Y. version sound cheap.
Is Bosendorfer or Steinway better. I've heard that Bosendorfer is better?
That’s like asking which wine is better? After a certain point it’s a matter of personal taste. My personal preference is for Mason and Hamlin pianos. But that doesn’t diminish the qualities of either Steinway or Bosendorfer.
In terms of which piano has the best craftsmanship, I would venture to say that Bluthner pianos, from Germany might have the best craftsmanship. But as they say, “Your mileage may vary.”
Always Bosendorfer or Bechstein!!
As a classical pianist of 20+ years, Steinway made an excellent piano back during their “golden era,” but now their pianos lack the same sense of craftsmanship that made them popular. Ten years ago, I had the opportunity to buy a Steinway grand, and passed it up to purchase a new Schimmel grand. Unfortunately, many of the Steinway buyers today end up buying into the brand hype from the dealers, and automatically assume it’s a superior instrument because of marketing and price. In my experience, new Steinways are far over priced for the mediocre quality instruments they are now producing. Couple that with dealers who are salespeople and not musicians… and they really don’t know the instruments they are selling. Overall the modern Steinway marketing scheme is geared to wealthy individuals who are looking for a status symbol in their home.
was the soundboard or pinblock replaced? if you love the Steinway design, why wouldnt you buy from the authorized dealership authorized by the factory!?
Uh, because they are grossly overpriced both new and their in house rebuilt ones. You can buy a piano that is just as good (some might say better) for literally half the price of either a used or new Steinway - OR - you can buy a much better piano for the same money. They're much more about marketing and building the brand than building the piano these days.
Would it be a Steinway rebuilt it them, would it be a Steinway?
Hamburg Steinways make the N.Y. models seem cheap. The quality and piano techs in Germany are the best in the world. N.Y. just seems to need to compete with the competition. Steinway of old? There was no competition.
Snobbery rules! But here the Steinway mob has taken it to the next level. Restorations can be both good and bad, but I suspect if you rebuild a Steinway, you will want to do it right.
Most rebuilders I know do a better job than the Steinway factory does these days.
But that’s a priceless Steinway!
Not anymore.
The gentleman (at 4:42) who compares an older Steinway to a brand-new Steinway fails to take into account that all good pianos (and especially Steinways) take a while to really blossom. The tone DOES change (for the better) after being used for some time. 12 years ago I bought a brand-new model B from the factory in NY. It sounded wonderful when I bought it. But now it has so much more breadth, clarity, dynamic range, and sustain. It is not the same as it was when it left the factory. And - the action required only a little regulation here or there... and remains sublime! So - I am suspicious that his used vs new argument holds the water he implies.
Your hammers probably hardened making the instrument brighter.
@@JoeLinux2000 Yes - of course they did. But they are uniform and their tonal impact is highly predictable from a player's fingers. But hammers are not the only reason a piano can blossom. And - those who don't maintain or place their pianos properly will get different results... especially after time. My point is this video is not a quality comparison as there are too many variables and outright differences that affect the tonal and regulation results. Do you really think an old Steinway that has been maintained will not be different in tone and feel than a brand-new one? Of course it will.
I worked for a Steinway dealer for ten years. They are all hand-built, one at a time. The action from one will not fit another of the same model, as they are not interchangeable. They are wonderful instruments, but each has its own characteristic tone. Artist will travel to the factory showroom in New York to pick one out.
The structure of the hammers plays a big part in the tone of a piano. Steinway hammers require an experienced technician to add hardeners to the felt because most of the time they are too soft to produce good tone. Other manufacturers use hammers that are much harder to begin with, and often need to be softened to get the desired tone. If non-Steinway hammers are installed, it may not sound exactly like it did when it left the factory, and the harder hammers will tend to stay that way despite repeated voicing. The same applies to the soundboard and bridges. Since each Steinway soundboard is individually hand shaped and tapered, the sound produced will be different if you install a new board, no matter who does the installation. That applies to a factory Steinway rebuilt piano also, as it would be impossible to duplicate the old board exactly.
I have worked on many Steinway pianos rebuilt by Lindeblad, and the latest one was a few weeks ago. The company hired me to do a final tuning and check the piano after delivery. The quality was at least as good or better than a new Steinway from New York. It sounded like any Steinway I've ever heard, and I would defy anyone to say it didn't.
I would not hesitate to recommend Lindeblad to anyone for rebuilding their vintage piano, or purchasing one from their inventory. It's a family owned business, so the quality of their product is personal to them.
You said it. Also the age of the wood also makes it unique. When a soundboard ages it gets better. As long as the humidity don't destroy it's build. 73
In arguing that it *is* a Steinway, you are fueling the same bullshit that you're calling them out on.
You should say "I don't give a shit if you consider it a Steinway. It sounds good."
There is only 1 Steinway, and that are those piano manufactured in Hamburg, Germany.....
The NYC factory opened years before the German one.
Yet with all that extra time still produce pianos that are way way below the standards of the German built ones.@@johnwheelwright799
@johnwheelwright799 There are Steinways and then there are Steinways. The German Steinway is recognized as being much better that the American Steinway.
@@frankclare101 Really? Can you provide sources on that claim?
@@nfexec1312 I've heard it said many times.
A pianos' tone is defined primarily by its string string scale and structure of the belly and sound board. 'Weickert' felt recipe hammers generate a desirable spectrum of overtones derived from intergrated impedance and efficient ressonance. Accessories change, but the essential characteristics are in its frame , bridges , soundboard dimensions, string tension, length and density prescriptions, and the structure/joinery that sustantiates the forces involved.
The condition of the hammers has a lot to do with tone. Acoustic pianos are mostly obsolete.
@@JoeLinux2000 wtf is wrong with you.
@@JoeLinux2000 you're a physics misfit.
I appreciate the loyalty to keeping the pianos with Steinway parts but one person put Renner action into a NY Steinway which is the definition of a Steinwas.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t Hamburg Steinways use German Renner parts in their action? Some concert artists prefer the Hamburg Steinways to American ones, and the action probably plays a big part in that. Even if I put a composite action from WN&G into a Steinway, it’s still a Steinway in my opinion.
@@russd.522 "Even if I put a composite action from WN&G into a Steinway, it’s still a Steinway in my opinion." Agreed. A better one, in fact.
@@russd.522 a renner does not make a steinway a renner, it stays steinway .
My mentor was rebuilding a steinway and ordered genuine steinway parts and they sent him renner parts. And also don't forget that Steinway bought renner. But that being said, the action is simply mechanical. And to be frank, steinway has traditionally done a horrible job at having a consistent geometry due to manufacturing process flaws which have resulted in large inconsistencies in their instruments. This would mean some steinways play well while others are borderline unplayable and sluggish. But everything in that action is simply about transphereing energy from the key to the hammer. The main thing that makes a big difference here is mass and consistency. Now renner historically was the best parts manufacturer in both of these aspects even when compared to original steinway parts, but with composites now those have taken over as they are far more consistant than wood. And this has no affect on the tone other than you having more control over the sound.
Current new york steinway hammers do not even come close to resembling the old turn of the century hammers. I mean I will say they are good hammers, but you can get closer matches from Ronsen if you are trying to restore an older golden era instrument as they produce a hammer that is more representative of what was used back in the day. And having a better match there will mean the piano is closer to the original golden age design than a current modern steinway produced instrument.
In other words it a ridiculous argument born to reduce steinways greatest competitor. Rebuilt steinways. And the reason they are their biggest compeditor is that they often times come out better than the factory steinway as a technitian can correct the mistakes made by the factory for the sake of saving on costs. 2 big ones being the soundboard and the action installation proceedure. I will not go into too much detail, but a common issues for steinway are dead boards. particularly those with low treble sustain. And the other is sluggish actions. These issues when corrected make them into wonderful pianos. Something a rebuilder can easily do and the factory has to compete with that while still not being able to correct the issues due to corporate pressure to not change the piano. The engineers know what the problems are, but the decision is above them and they cannot fix their piano without a higher ups approval. Which is a common corporate issue.
Some years ago I was visiting a local Steinway dealer after having seen and played a nice Steinway A that had been rebuilt in Europe with a Renner action. The sales droid sniffed to me with his nose in the ozone, that it cannot be a real Steinway. I replied to him that since all Hamburg Steinways have Renner actions does that mean that they are not “real” Steinways? He had no answer for that.
Speaking of Renner, I’ve heard rumors that some Steinway B and D instruments have factory installed Renner actions. Incidentally, Renner is now owned by (yup, you guessed it) Steinway.
Just say it. The company is nasty and monopolistic.
Audio examples are awful!
Here's what I think. If the repair was done by a Steinway authorized tech, then fine. If not, then I believe Steinway has a right to protect their reputation. After all, such a masterpiece is more than just parts - it's also the people who make it. If you're not planning on selling your 'baby', then fine. You're free to think of it in any way you like. If you sell it, though, I belive you are duty bound to inform the prospective buyer of its history. And they are, of course, free to say, fine, I love it. It's every bit of Steinway as far as I'm concerned. But if _they_ then sell it, they inherit the same duty. IMO.
Some of the Worst Pianos I have ever played were Steinways....over hyped...
I agree there are some that are not good at all
97% of all worldwide concerts are on Steinway pianos. Their reputation is earned