A Look at Tony Williams Cymbals (Part 4: 1963-1997) with Paul Wells
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- čas přidán 4. 12. 2023
- Paul Wells closes out the 4 part Tony Williams series with a deep dive into TW's legendary cymbals, and his Sticks and Heads. Tony Williams is one of the most iconic drummers of the 20th century, with a meteoric rise from his days with Miles Davis to his Lifetime project, and he became jazz royalty through his tireless pursuit of pushing our instrument to its limits. Tony Williams will always be one of the greatest drummers of all time, and his cymbals are almost as legendary as his playing. However, it wasn't always just the vintage K's or the Gretsch monster kit... We cover every single detail in this 4-part series, from his childhood Slingerland Radio Kings, through his yearly change of Gretsch kits in the 60s, the advent of the big yellow kits, and his transition to DW.
Check these out on CZcams for the best experience to see all the photos we discuss: / @drumhistorypodcast
Be sure to follow and subscribe to Paul's CZcams channel to show your support for the immense amount of time he has put into this project!
Here is Paul's CZcams channel: / @paulwells2227
and find him on social media at @paulwellsdrums
Thank you to Masters of Maple for sponsoring this episode! www.mdrums.com
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Hey everyone, all the episodes are live in the Tony Williams Series. Here are links to get there quickly. Thanks for watching!
Part 1 - czcams.com/video/v2_qMi9R2hI/video.html
Part 2- czcams.com/video/Pftmcfz9y4M/video.html
Part 3- czcams.com/video/FwUZl0g_AvQ/video.html
Part 4- czcams.com/video/DVUrA2pC4yk/video.html
Well, having watched all 4 episodes, the 2023 GeekZilla award goes to Mr Paul Wells, for his Epic level Nerdery, Unbridled Enthusiasm, and demonstrated Deep Knowledge and Love of his subject matter...
Seriously, I'm a guitarist, and I've spent the best part of 8 hours learning the minutia of Tony Williams drumming life, and it's been a fascinating tale from beginning to end. Bravo fellas, it's been a helluva (22") Ride...
That is awesome! I agree, Paul is beyond knowledgable and makes it all approachable and fun to watch. Thanks so much for joining in on the conversation and enjoying the show
Incredible. No other drum gear video has ever kept me spellbound like this. Simply in loss of words, so cannot thank you enough. Keep up the great work, guys!
Guys, I listened and watched every second, some parts I even rewound and watched again to absorb it correctly. But these episodes were an unbelievably kind gift in Paul's time and show cases his passion and commitment to discovery.
I know you said hours and hours, but really I've searched, researched and reverse engineered photo's in libraries, and online and it's hundreds and hundreds of hours of research time, not to mention compiling it into a time line for referencing during the show, with photo's too. I didn't really know much about TW, but I certainly do now.
Well done Bart (and Paul), it was killer.
I need to go apologies to my wife who sent me out to get the milk a few days ago, just after I find all the TW CD's in my collection.
Great Series! I listened to all the episodes during another deep dive on Tony's repertoire.
I listened to all the Tony episodes. Wonderful!
Yes, i listened to the entire series. Not a second missed. Thank you all, and all behind the scenes. This was teuly tremndous and is such a great service. History is so, SO very important!! Know the ones that came before you. ❤️🥁❤️🥁
Thank you for watching Brent!
I remember Anton Fig telling a story about driving through a mountain range in California one afternoon, and finding a jazz radio station. The signal was weak, and only the ride cymbal was getting through. He immediately knew he was hearing Tony's ride cymbal, and was proven correct when the other instruments on the recording materialized (I don't remember which tune it was). In another interview, Anton recalled that Tony once called him at home, in the late 1980s, to ask him which Zildjian cymbals he was using on the Late Night with David Letterman show. Tony liked the sounds of Anton's cymbals on TV.
Thanks again Paul and Bart for the tremendous discussion of Tony Williams. Such a unique individual with well-defined style and technique. A legend in the musician's world. Respected for his contribution to the music and his performance. Historically remembered.💛
Thank you!
Elvin was known to be in the Zildjian factory rolling on Cymbals, "warming them up" for hours. Thank you all for this series!! Amazing!!!
This was great. Tony was a great inspiration for me. I got to see him with the VSOP Tour with Freddie, Herbie, Wayne, & Ron. Also, with the Believe It band. He is the reason I drove up to NYC from Philly to get the Gretsch bop kit in walnut at Frank Ippollito's shop. Thanks for continuing Tony's legacy through this great collection of podcasts.
Amazing you saw that! Thanks for watching
I binged to all 4 episodes! Thank you guys! I've been a big Tony fan since my drum teacher turned me onto him in the late 80s. This filled in all kinds of gaps in my knowledge of his history, gear, and personality outside of the music. Fantastic!
Just finished all 4 - listened all the way and repeated some spots that I wanted to. Lifelong bass player digging into playing drums for the 2nd time. This series filled in SO much info about Tony, the equipment, and the players! Many thanks !
Thank you for all the incredibly detailed work you guys imparted with the stories, photos, and other materials and "big ups" to Paul for going so deep into Tony's arsenal of magical tools in the hands of this true master and history-making legend!!! Very insightful and entertaining documentation, thank you so much!!!
I totally agree. Thank you guys for all your work on that deep dive! Project for next year... elvin? ;)
This series is amazing and invaluable! Thanks for sharing your passion on this subject, this needed to be done and glad it was you both (and Scott) that were the ones to do it:)
Many thanks to all of you! Enjoyed the entire series.
THIS IS INCREDIBLE! Thank you both so much.
Great series with wonderful contributors. Not only does the listener learn about Tony Williams but she learns so much about the world of drums and drumming. There is so much to take in with each episode that repeated listening is recommended. Congratulations to the many contributors and Bart on this phenomenal achievement. And a neatly edited video too! Who could ask for (and) more?
I did indeed watch every episode. Fascinating stuff.
I really appreciate that, thanks for your time!
I want to thank you and Mr. Wells and yes..I've watched all four episodes. As for Tony Williams ...he's eternal !
Thank you very much!
Thanks so much for this!! I watched all four and wanted more! 🥁🥁🥁
Really enjoyed this series and learned a lot. perfect entertainment when you were at home sick
Ah man, can’t wait to listen to these Tony Williams episodes!!
We hope you like it!
I also think that the cymbal does matter yes, but it was Tony that made that cymbal(s) as special as it was/appeared. Tony can make any, and I mean any cymbal, sound epic.
yes 100% true. Thanks for watching 👍
Excellent! Thanks Bart
Wow, dream show to enjoy forever. Thanks
Thank you!
Great series of shows - fascinating insight into Tony’s gear! I play one of the Mehmet 18” cymbals in my regular setup - beautiful instrument that captures some of Tony’s vibe!
Thanks for watching! That cymbal sounds awesome
Hey Paul!!! So great to see you diving so deep! Really amazing. I just wanted to throw this out there: I’m always struck, when pondering the story of Max Roach picking out that first cymbal for Tony, that a guy who to best of my knowledge played A’s and 20” rides would pull out that 22 for Tony. It makes me wonder how thoughtful it was (or wasn’t). Like “oh, here, this one sounds fine….” and then that bit of happenstance blows my mind. Anyway, lovely to see you and great work!
Yes!!! Love!!!
Great stuff guys! Thanks Paul!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great info and insight! Thanks for the deep dive on all the toady gear. Love the Gretch. Love the info on the drumsticks. I have some older models. I need to identify as well.
Thank you!
Thanks for this deep-dive to Tony's gear! Currently waiting for my Mehmet TW Jazz-Rock ride while watching this cast. Hopefully it arrives to me before Christmas!
Awesome! Let us know how it sounds
I have a theory on the small bells on the rides comment.
Perhaps he wasn’t speaking about the diameter but more of the height?
I briefly had an old stamp 21.5” in my possession.
The bell was pretty typical diameter but was noticeably shallow.
Pretty pronounced where it began. (Not softly sweeping up gradually, but shallow none the less.
Love this stuff 👍
Thank you!
Cool
Absolutely great!!!!!!!!!
Thank you!!
Very young Steve Gadd.? He was born in 1945, same year as Tony Williams (who was born later, in December).
Hey @drumhistorypodcast I have a little cool story to tell. In 2006 I attended the IAJE (International Association of Jazz Education) conference in NYC. There, I attended a clinic by the great brush master, Clayton Cameron. In the audience was Ari Hoenig and Ndugu Chancelor! Anyway, at one point Clayton mentioned about the time that Tony called him up and asked for brush lessons! I can't remember if Clayton actually said this to Tony, or just throught it, but he made a comment about how can you play brushes on a black dot head and that he'll do it when Tony changes it! Not sure if he every did the lesson, but nonetheless a unique memory and story! You should contact Clayton and ask him about that, unless you already have? Great podcast! I love it!
1:08:40 in your video: Copenhagen, Denmark, June 1971
Definitely NOT a 602, the bell is way too small and transitions smoothly into the bow of the cymbal (602 bells do not do that).
I would say there's a good chance this is a very early preserial 2002, the bell shape in the picture more accurately represents the bell shape on a 20" 2002.
ALSO, very early 1971 preserial 2002's did not have an ink stamp on the bottom of the cymbal (like the one in your picture) and only had the name "Paiste" stamped in ink on the top of the cymbals, I am lucky enough to own one of these!
Dan Garza
listened to the whole thong. Very interesting in a nerdy kind of way.
For what it's worth, I actually have Compo heads on all my toms, and a bunch in storage. Introduced to these heads by the my friend and great drummer Michael Vatcher. I found a pile of these heads a few years later in a music shop in Berlin and bought a lot of them. They do sound particularly warm and have some characteristics of skin heads. They are a little 'quirky' but very nice to play. (and they can last well). The company went out of business in the early 90's I believe. Anyway... just FYI for the geeks out there,
Listened to the whole thing! Please do Elvin next year!
Great idea! Thank you
Nice…I didn’t know TW played 602’s at all!
11:45 1985 Tony Williams recorded on Yoko Ono’s Starpeace
on electronic drums
off course Tony's ride only sounded that great, when he played it. Just like Al Foster and his 22" paiste dark ride. It was not such a good example of a dark ride, but when Al played it, everybody loved it...
Well said!
Al's touch is a huge part of the sound he gets on the SCDR. Also he personally told me how he got too close to Tony's sound because he influenced him so much. Al has always strived to get his own sound so that SCDR is close but not same as the "Tony K". I would describe it as high, dark and DRY...v s. Tony's K , high, dark and washy/trashy. Scdr is like a cleaner version of the K. Just IMO.
@@TK-xo2mf Al Foster is another one of my all time heroes! I saw him several times live and he always burned
@@DrumHistoryPodcast have you considered doing a Peter criss video? You could talk to his old tech ed kanon. Or even Eric Carr with his tech John Walsh. I’m not sure who Eric had the years before that. But either one or both would be great considering the long history with Peter and Pearl, and Eric and Ludwig.
I had a 22-in Paiste Dark Ride and it was stolen from me. I had bought that brand new and loved it.
Paul! he's an inspiration.
Yes Paul is the man!
Hello, thank you very much for this documentary on Tony, so fascinating! I would like to know what ride cymbal Tony used on Herbie Hancock's Maiden Voyage, Blue Note, 1965? It seems to me to be a K from the dark sound but I'm not sure.
good stuff
Well done, Paul; like hear/see in person the Mehmet Tony Williams Jazz-Rock cymbal set some day; the heavier 22 the 16 and 15s
Thanks for mentioning those. I completely forgot to talk about them in this episode when I went over the Mehmet signature series. I’ve also never heard the heavier “jazz rock” cymbals in person, but the video demos of them sound really great! I wish there was more info about which of Tony’s cymbals they copied for the “jazz rock” series, but I assume they are maybe from his “Believe It” era cymbals.
👏 👏
Tony said himself after listening to himself on four and more that he needed to start using a heavier stick
That is very interesting
Any info on the evolution of his ride cymbal placement? Looks like it starts low and closer to horizontal in early 60’s, to higher and more vertical in later years.
Remo made the Permatone heads for Gretsch….in the 60’s ..is my understanding…they were made specially a little larger for them…
this was a wonderful episode (they all really are). I was most infatuated with the ride he had on the Monteraux Jazz festival 1972 with Stan Getz. The end with Time's Lie before he drum solos when Chick Corea comes out of a solo where he's flying so fast on the top of what seem like a flat-bell ride and using the shoulder of the stick making, what might be the coolest thing ever done on a ride. They keep pulling Times Lie off youtube unfortunately.
it's funny how Tony went from those tiny 3D sticks to giant 2Bs
It does seem like those tipless 5As were a transitional stick between the 3Ds and 2Bs, although the sticks in photos from 71 look like 2Bs. So, it seems he went from 3Ds (and maybe 5Ds and whatever other smaller “jazz” sticks he used in the Miles era), to 2Bs (in 70/71), to tipless 5As in 72/73, then 2Bs full on in 1975 until he passed. It is an interesting evolution, but totally reflects his changes in style, sound, and dynamics.
Bosphorus black pearl , Master vintage ,Traditional , even the antiques completely hand made ,the right weight will get you that k sound.
I love those Black Pearl cymbals
In the Gretsch catalog when it listed the Tony stick. It had the diameter as "15/16 (.9375) the stick was not anywhere near that. I mentioned that to Tony at the time. He didn't seem to care. Had to catch a flight.
Wow that is very interesting! Great info
So why did Zildjan discontinue the Tony stick? I loved that thing. Also, I'd heard Tony used neoprene gaskets instead of cymbal felts in his hihat clutch. Do you have any info on that?
Yes. I've listened to the whole series. Thanks for this.
Zildjian discontinued the Tony signature stick when Istanbul Mehmet’s Tony Williams signature cymbals came out. His name couldn’t be associated with two competing cymbal companies, even though they were sticks vs cymbals. Apparently, that rule applies to those types of contracts, even posthumously. It’s unfortunate, because a lot of people loved Tony’s signature stick.
I wish I could have played with these sticks you speak of
Loved the Zildjian Tony Williams stick. It would be nice if they brought it back or if another stick company started making a version of it. They could call it the Red Alert stick or something to that effect…wink…wink.
Whew! That was a deep dive on Tony. Very enjoyable. Paul sure does his homework. Hey Bart any chance you do one on Ayotte?
Thanks for listening! Man I have tried a few times to set one up with Ray but haven't gotten through yet. I will keep trying
@@DrumHistoryPodcast great! I played Ayotte s for years and still own a set I’ll never sell.
Hey, do you know Tony has ever used a china or swish vymbal?
WHOA....a 3 foot by 6 foot crate full of old K's?!...man! What do you all think happened to all that stuff?? And that doesn't even include drum sets in different cities etc! My word!
Did this get re uploaded? There is a lot here that was not the when I watched it right when it was uploaded and notified. I was literally wondering why they bothered because they barely talked about cymbals
Very interesting, I’m not sure. Maybe it wasn’t fully loaded yet on CZcams? Either way, thank you for watching the full thing
Hallo Bart and Paul, very, very well done!
In 2004 I bought a Spizzichino Tony Williams Ride from a guy who visited Roberto Spizzichino on a regular basis. He told me that John Riley took the "Nefertiti" Ride to Mr Spizzichino so he could copy the cymbal. I don't know if that is true! - I was able to pick my cymbal from 4 Tony Williams models that Mr Spizzichino made. They all had two things in common: 1: The weight was around 2650g. 2. They had a kind of a kink about two inches from the edge. I would describe it as "hanging shoulders".
When I look at the picture of Wallace's ride, 57:20, it looks as if this cymbals also have this hanging edge.
Could it be possible that the "obvious tonal groove" that Pauls describes in 32:10 is also that kind of kink?
Regarding the Istanbul Mehmet Tony Williams Tribute Series I can share the following information.
When the first 250 Sets came out, I was able to check three of these out and compare them. I didn't write down the weights, but I remember that the high hats were all exact the same weights (1 or 2 Gramm difference). They also sounded exactly the same. Very close to Tony's!
The 22's were between 2250g and 2300g. So they are much lighter the Spizzichino Nefertiti Rides. Soundwise the were very close to each other.
All three 18's sounded different. None of them sounded really close to Tony's 18.
Here is a video of the Spizzichino Tony Williams ride:
czcams.com/video/53XXsIbzUHQ/video.html
Unfortunately, I sold the cymbal years ago...
Is there any unreleased tony Williams material???? Or any unreleased video footage?
No one knows for sure, but Paul has seen many unreleased photos that are variations of things that are released. The Tony Williams in Africa film is out there, but not widely released.
I heard from a freak that hanged out with Tony in New York in the late ’60s that Tony’s ride cymbal was very dry
Hurray
I bought a Zildjian 23 inch, the badge has no numbers and the stamp is heavy on sides but the middle is weak looking, it has to be from the 60s
He had to tighten the wing nut down to hold that cymbal at that extreme angle. Otherwise gravity would have flattened it out on the stand
the sticker thing at 1:13 on that Paiste looks like some tone control.. like something folded held down with tape.
Yeah that's what I'm thinking too
Kerope are very close.
Paul Francis gave the exact weight of the Nefertiti ride on an interview w Timothy Roberts (Reverie dude?) or another one in least 4 years or so on the Tube.
Good call! I heard Paul speak a bit about it at the last Chicago Drum Show when someone asked but I can't exactly remember the details of what he said beyond it hanging on the wall
Yes, it is 2642g. I thought i mentioned the weight in the video, but I may have forgotten to!
You guys are awesome!
I do love and own the 'K' but I never liked the logo. Seams like a sport car's logo from the 80's.
;-P
Has anyone asked his widow Colleen if there's unreleased material from TW???
My understanding is that Colleen is both very private and also extremely protective of Tony’s legacy, which she has every right to be. Like many of us, I’d love to find out what recordings might be unreleased, but I didn’t want to try and track her down and bother her.
Yeees 🤌🤌🤌🤌
My Agop OM 22 sounds fairly Tonyish
1:13:10
Cymbal on the right is absolutely NOT a Paiste, the bell shape does not match any Paiste series and they never made brilliant cymbals.
I also don't recognise the ink stamp, could be something a music store or Tony put on there, to me it looks like a B20 cymbal and or a A Zildjian brilliant!
Also, the 2002 on his left was probably given to him at Montreux, Toomas Paiste was notorious for giving away TONS of cymbals (even to drummers that didn't endorse Paiste), so much so that it cause financial problems for Paiste!
Dan
He used two 15” A Rock bottoms for hats
I’m pretty sure for what I’ve heard he used two 15” 1 stamp Constantinople concert or march type cymbals which usually tends to be very heavy cymbals which made them much brighter
@@user-bf9pp7lt6g I’m going off what TW said himself in old Modern Drummer interview. Depends what era…he switched cymbals a lot actually.
Alright that makes sense, just curious though, what era did he those
@@user-bf9pp7lt6g about mid 80s but not sure specific range of time
no 602! The bell is too flat
This guy is a bit dramatic ,,,,so many great drummers ,,,just go ahead and play ,,,lay it down ,with some fire
What guy?..Tony?
Who gives an F?
Lots of people,obviously…Who do you want to hear a doc on ..Rikki Rockett?
@@Formula-602 Well yeah ... I remember seeing Poison in Orlando ... he was donning the sweetest little pink leather cowboy hat ...
@@HumbleStudent-pt2qy ok..NOW it makes sense….a Poison fan would never get T W…..a little too cerebral!
I loved this deep dive into Tony and his gear. I would love to see one about Elvin or Roy Haynes