Backcountry XC Vs Alpine Touring Skiing. Comparing AT and Cross Country Downhill.
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- čas přidán 2. 01. 2022
- I compare backcountry cross country and alpine touring ski setups. Both setups are used in Northern Oregon and Southern Washington. I show some footage of skiing with both. Most setups where purchased at www.skatepro.com/en-us.
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I have been back country skiing for about 5 years, and I would say that the AT setup like shown here is basically for big mountain powder skiing, like one climb up and then full descent. Anything other type of backcountry, especially rolling terrain the fishscale patterned ski is what is needed. You can still put a skin on them if need be but otherwise you need something that you can climb and descend without having to stop and put on skins. In my experience I found the fish scales to be better than an integrated skin because these do not glide well. Some of the ski shoe companies make these, I would stay away from them completely unless you are doing that as an alternative to snowshoeing. Also, I started off on a BC Nordic binding with a Nordic boot and switched over to a 3 pin binding and a plastic tele boot. I found this to be a better setup for turning and controlling speed. It may not be necessary on gentle rolling terrain, but if you're skiing snow shoe trails or in steep and deep areas, this setup provides better control. Long treks though on gentle terrain, a BC Nordic setup is fine. In my 3rd year I put a light AT binding on a BC Nordic fish scale ski and used a plastic AT boot with a 70degree range of motion. This is still one of my favourite setups because I can cover a lot of distance but also have a bit more control when faced with challenging terrain. I am not a great tele skier but it does help to know how to do a tele turn. Backcountry skiing is a great sport! It is great listening to people's opinions on gear. No one in my area knows anything about the sport, so I had to learn a lot by trial and error. Great video, thanks for sharing!
Awesome response, I'm going to pin it. I haven't had any experience with 3 pin bindings. I feel I should have done the AT skis more justice. I ski with them a lot including a lot more steeper terrain and at lifts but this is the footage I had when I did this video. Also check out my other video on single vs double camber, let me know what you think. I'm very tempted to get a fish scale ski and use it with a tech binding. I've went skiing the last 2 days so I'm still at it this year : ) czcams.com/video/3a8r2KpT6lg/video.html
@@NorthwestGigabyte It depends on how often you are faced with downhill situations as to whether or not you should use a tech binding. The 3 pin is a bit more versatile in that you can use it in the same mode all the time. But, you have to use a tele turn. My tech binding setup is great for me because I live at the bottom of a ski resort and I often have to come down the groomed runs. I can do a tele turn with my 3 pin to get down but I find the tech binding just offers a bit more control in these situations because I am not a good tele skier. These runs get high traffic and are often icy. The other advantage is that I can use a plastic boot and the tech binding has a better pivot point for touring than a traditional nordic binding. But definitely fish scale is best for the ski. I haven't tried using grip wax yet for this type of skiing but my new setup won't have any pattern or skin because I am switching to a shorter ski for skiing woods. They don't make really short skis with a fish scale pattern. The Altai Hoks are the shortest ski you can get but they have an integrated skin which doesn't work well for gliding downhill on any short of packed down terrain. Thanks for the link for your other video!
@movieman6588 I agree on integrated skin. For me, speed on the downhill is important. Have you checked out the Altai Kom? Sounds like exactly what you're looking for.
@@movieman6588 Interesting and helpful snapshots of your experience. I've been backcountry skiing since '86. I still ski 3 pin 75mm Nordic Norm--which is impossible to buy in the us any longer but of course available in Europe. The bulk of my skiing is on wood skis with either wax or nowax and no edges, but I also have double camber steel edge Europa99 (double camber). My boots are classic Asolo Snowfield leather boots I've had since 88 or so. They are very soft and low cut compared to any modern "tele" boot.
I don't only use a telemark turn though--you must also be comfortable with open turns, parallel turns, step turns, skate turns, and any other that will get you down the hill. Double camber skis are terribly skittish and difficult on hard pack or icy stuff and telemark turns don't work then , I go open turns and steps in those conditions. If you learn to truly do an old school telemark, you can succefully ski beautiful downhill turns in powder using racing skis and even the old fashioned racing boots that looked like sneakers--the only must have is a heel locator that is stout. Contemporary telemark has gone a long way from that, with very stiff, high boots, and bindings that even leave full cable binding setups behind. 3-pin was never as robust as cable--which for extreme backcountry was essentially a must before the new modern stuff.
As for wax---I use it as well as fish scales. I've even used wax successfully on single cambered back country skis. There are conditions which fish scales don't work well in but the wax is great at. Iced up old snow is one excellent example. (Obvisously different skis, I don't mix wax and scales)
@@vibratingstring Thanks for your comment. This year the conditions were so poor that I mostly used my Voile HyperVector with the Switchback binding. This is because we had no powder and I needed to use this gear to get down the groomers. Our natural snow was poor so I was mainly skiing on snowshoe trails and groomers. I modified a junior downhill ski with a BC Nordic binding to do some Bush-wacking, XC. But this is only because the snow was so thin that I didn't want to use good equipment. I carved a negative fishscale pattern into the base instead of using wax, and it worked alright. I only paid $20 for the ski so it wasn't a big financial commitment, and I found that it got me out even if there was only a couple of cm of natural snow! I met someone this year that had a lot of tele experience and it helped to hear that it isn't necessarily about the technique, it is how you get down. With the setup that I mentioned above I find that I can get down a groomer, almost as though I have a regular downhill setup. Then my technique changes as soon as there is substantial powder. However, the equipment I have is modern, not like the backcountry tele gear that people seemed to ski on in the past. Thanks again for your feedback.
So my recent purchase: Fischer Outbound 98 w/ fish scales $390.
Alpina Alaska boots $370. Rotafella
NNN BC manual bindings $80
After tax and all I spent $800. as I recall. Couldn't be happier. Boots fit like a glove.
Nice tips! We were looking for some suggestions about XC vs AT. Your video helps a lot!
really appreciate this juxtaposition, not a lot of people out there talking about this!
Great explanation of pros and cons of AT vs backcountry nordic skiing. As somebody who likes long hikes through more mellow terrain I also ended up using BC nordic more often.
Yeah, I kind of got forced into AT on groomed runs for awhile since we have a toddler now. I miss the snow covered trails, and there are a lot more places to go/explore when you're not locked into all up and then down.
Found this helpful. Helped make my decision. Thanks!
Great stuff! This is exactly where I am. Currently own the Rossignol BC65 which works great in my area where we have some tracks groomed for classic XC but also a lot of BC. Much of it is too steep for a XC ski but much of it isn't and his point about approaching it gradually and safely makes a lot of sense. I think I'll get a set of wider XC skis for fresh snow days and work on getting better at skiing before I jump into AT.
One point he failed to make is the additional training necessary for Alpine Touring, namely, avalanche and rescue. Oh, and adding the cost of a decent beacon and rescue gear brings the AT rig up to the $1,800-$2,000 range. Add in a flotation vest. Backcountry extraction. Etc...
Good points, I'm going to pin this comment to the top! I just made a video of us skiing on the XCD setup. I was carrying the baby so we were being cautious but it was pretty fun. In this ski there was a thaw/freeze under a couple inches of fresh snow the the 78/88 width worked out nice. czcams.com/video/1u8GiZOksQ8/video.html
Nice explanation for the advantages of XCD equipment! Most of the people I see on AT setups really would be better off without them... slogging up and down trails with full skins in heavy plastic boots. That said, you've probably heard this already but the advantage of AT for downhill is *not* the lack of scales or the full skins, it's the locked heel with release mechanism (NNN-BC bindings do not release, ever). Plenty of XCD skis have smooth bases, because grip wax nearly always climbs better than scales with the notable exception of warm conditions... perhaps you have those on the West Coast :) And Voilé makes AT skis with scales!
Cool, thanks for clarifying. I’d like to try those skis! Some others brought them up too. I did mention AT’s being ‘Locked in’ for the heels but I kind of glide over it. I also end up editing out my rambling about AT being used for ski mountaineering and climbing/skiing down Mt Hood for example.
I mentioned the smooth underside of the ski because when I first used them I was surprised how slick they were and how much drag fish scales caused.
I'd say there's also a tradeoff between carving performance and flat country gliding with camber and sidecut. What's good for one is horrible for the other. Most AT skis are just lighter versions of resort style downhill skis. Most XCD skis have a compromise.
Enjoyed the video, thanks!!
Glad you liked it! I'm thinking about making another video going over all the replies/thoughts I got from FB.
Good video. Like you I have both. I ski in the east with no descents above treelike. No doubt going down steeper hills I prefer my AT gear--more control for sure on steep, narrow, wooded trails, but I always prefer going uphill with my backcountry nordic skis with full length skins--way lighter and it feels like it takes half the energy. It is a bit of a coin flip
which each tour to decide which setup to take. Thanks again!
You must be a good skier if you’re going down trails that require a skin on BC skis! We have them too but I’m usually second guessing myself if I need them. Very early mornings I ski down freshly groomed runs with my BC. It’s super easy to carve turns etc. The issue is when the trails are rutted out or there are chunks of snow. My leather boot gives way. That’s where plastic boots locked in at the heel help. I should do another video.
I think ski dynamics are really interesting. I also think people are too quick to assume XC means you don’t ski down hills. Some trails are obviously BC and others obviously AT. There are a lot that you can use both in. We’re often using our BC on lift served runs. Especially like I said if it’s fresh groomed.
Great breakdown and explanation 👏👏. I really want AT for full control downhill. But honestly I like my cross country skate skiis the most. And the back country skis looks like the best mixture of both worlds 👏🤗
Yeah, BC skis are easier to control. I'm sure you'll notice they are slower on flatter ground than skate skis. ATs are great when it's steeper then the fish scales can hold in those cases you wouldn't be getting glide anyways. The skins of AT skis are a pain if there is ups and downs and in those cases you'll wish you had BC skis. It really depends on the terrain and of course your budget!
Good video. Just a few points of contention. You can get full and half skins (synthetic or mohair) for XC skis as well. You can get XC skis that are smooth and are meant to have kick wax rather than waxless (ie scales). You can get super light AT skis today that weigh as little as the BC XC or even lighter. I would say that it depends on what you like to do and where you live. If you have rolling terrain where you go up and down allot (ie lots of transitions) and not very steep inclines, then the BC XC skis are great, plus they are more fun on these decents because it takes skill to ride downhill without being locked in. But if you are going up mountains of 500m or more, with maybe inclines above 30% and you do not have mad tellemark turn skills, then go for the AT.
Great points! I go up Mt. Hood a lot and almost always bring my AT gear. I was thinking about getting light AT skis because on a fresh groom in the morning it seems like I could get away with half the ski. Like you said up and downs I definitely prefer BC and it’s cheaper to get into.
I have scoured the web and you are the only person who seems to have covered this question. Thank you! I’m looking for the most versatile ski set-up possible because my family and I are always switching back and forth between skiing on groomed classic and skate ski trails and at downhill resorts. The downhill resorts are in Ontario so they aren’t challenging. The runs never exceed 35% gradient and a mile long. I just ski for fun and so I can hang out with my kids so I was thinking of getting a pair of bc xc skis to use in all scenarios. Would this work?
Yeah, I think it makes sense. If you're going to use them on the downhill maybe something wider like the 98s? My wife has them and feels much more in control on them than she did on the 78s. The sacrifice is they are slower with a larger fish scale patch etc.
Good video! To me this is sort of comparing two separate sports. Quite similar but not really comparable. Almost like comparing mtb and road cycling. Both rad but for completely different reasons
My cousin and my wife got 1 and a half camber skis. They're almost a cross between x-country and alpine touring. I've done a lot of AT last summer and this fall when we go up Mt Hood in the early and late season. I definitely see using AT when you skin up for a couple of hours 3k feet elevation, turn around, take off the skins, and ski all the way back. It's annoying when you get to areas where there are hills and up and down terrain. We ski cross country on alpine runs around here too, it's fairly easy on fresh groomed slopes in the morning. The issue is if there are chunks of snow/crud that cause the skis to twist unexpectedly due to a weak leather boot and not being locked into the heels. I should make another video!
Any chance you can list out the xc setup you have here?
I live in the same area as you and just started this sport last year and going to Trillium lake and heading away from the crowds.. I have the Salomon Escape Outpath 64 and they didn't seem to "float" well on the deep snow. I read your comments and you like the 88 width for this area, what are your thoughts about the Fischer S Bound 98 or 112? I have no experience so I appreciate any thoughts you have. Thanks in advance.
My wife has S Bound 98's. They're slower on the groomed and hard pack since they are 1 1/2 camber instead of 2. The scales drag more because of the camber and the fact that there's more scales. On the plus side they grip more going up hill, are more stable underfoot, and will float better in soft snow. She really likes them because she wipes out much less often. It makes her able to handle the more challenging terrain. It made a big difference for her going from the 78s. If we go to teacup on the greens/blues she would probably rather be on the 78s. The trail where I filmed some of this is the PCT from Frog Lake to Twin Lakes. Try it out sometime if you haven't!
@@NorthwestGigabyte Awesome, thanks.. Wiping out less is a good thing. Appreciate the help.
Thanks for the video.. I am think about getting into skiing particularly XC. Would you mind sending me a link to the skies, boots and bindings you use for the XC setting shown in the video? Or what item numbers they are on skatepro.
Thanks
The skis are Fischer excursion 88. I really like them for a double camber back country ski. I would get NNN-BC manual bindings like this: www.skatepro.com/en-us/753-26475.htm I don't see my boots available anywhere but any NNN-BC boot would do: www.backcountry.com/cross-country-boots?p=Boot%2FBinding+System%3ANNN-BC
My wife just got a pair of these and I would consider them more of a 'premium' boot. She likes them. They are a little stiffer than our other ones: www.alfaoutdoor.com/collections/backcountry-ski-boots-for-men/products/skarvet-advance-gtx-m-black
That’s perfect.. Thank you so much for replying
Ty. Out of curiosity what is the ski on the left (the one that was like $500) and did those have a metal edge because I am looking to get back into the sport and I’m looking for primarily backcountry skis that have the metal edge.
The skis on the left look like the ideal set up that I would want to start with, especially if they have a nice glide factor to them. I only want to go in the park off the trails, make my own. I’m not gonna be in any tracks, so I like to explore. That seems like a really good set up for me.
For exploring in the woods XC BC is definitely the way to go. The one on the left is fisher excursion 88s. If it’s steep and more gnarly and/or deeper snow I would go with the S bound 98s my wife has. A lot of groomed trails mixed in I would go with 78s
@@NorthwestGigabytety for your reply. Nothing will have tracks where I’m going. There may be some small hills but that’s about it.
what width of xc ski do u recommend for PNW backcountry?
Are you in Portland area? I find 88's pretty good for most of the snow parks. I used to have 78s but broke one of them so I got something beefier. They are good for trails that other skiers/snowshoers are using. I would go wider if you're in untracked area, narrower if you're on groomed. 88s are good for your typical snowshoe and ungroomed trails.
O, I see a beautiful lady showed her nice technique. I like your video. Good work. Could you please intro more about your XC gear and more other XC gear?
Thanks! I just made another video too. It’s very gear related:
czcams.com/video/3a8r2KpT6lg/video.html
You're comparing apples to oranges. Backcountry here in Alps is very different to backcountry in say Norway. I cannot even imagine using the "backcountry XC" skis on the trails I normally go to.I would not be able to climb the trails as they get really steep and I would break both of my legs (in the better case) going down.
Fox "xc" we have classic and skate skiing trails, that's where you use the other setup.
Yeah, this is meant to be more like an intro to skiing. If I go up Mt Hood or something then I use AT. The beginner places are skied on both though, and it's probably a little better to use xc bc gear due to the reasons stated above (cost of entry, fiddling with gear etc.). I use my AT gear more as I progress and go into more difficult terrain but if I'm with people just starting it's more likely to be xc bc.
@kuba5153 That’s the point he’s making. They have different uses, obviously. But I only have AT and they are overkill for some of the rolling terrain I ski when conditions suck, so that’s where BC XC skis come in handy