A Message to Bass Pro’s, Bassmaster, MLF and Everyone Else! (The Big Picture) Ep. 157
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- čas přidán 11. 09. 2024
- In this episode of Pro Secrets Exposed, I talk about forward facing sonar and what MLF and Bassmaster should do to address it. Some might agree, while others won’t. But honestly there has to be some common ground on things. Just remember it’s impossible to move forward if we live in the past. This fishing tip series will post everydayish until I can't do it anymore! So stay tuned for more! If you haven't yet, please hit the SUBSCRIBE button!
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When FFS became more important than the total level of skills an angler has I was out. You can not compete without it. So many people hate watching it that its affecting viewership. No fans. No sponsors. No payouts to fight for. Does not matter whether the anglers like it or not.
I think the discussion is kind of pivoting to what is enjoyable to watch. Swindle’s video was about the fans, just like any other professional sport, fans are going to dictate how a league operates. If ratings, sponsorships, etc start to decline, the leagues will have no choice but to make changes. I think FFS is great to use, but I also think it is horribly boring to watch from a fan perspective
Let me say this I don't think watching you guys fishing live is like watching Paint dry. If I want a good nap I'll put live fishing on my lap top. I wish it would go back to the 1 hour Sunday show and show clips and the short clips of weigh-ins. Live is to much, in my opinion. I don't have time to watch tournaments live. So that's my Opinion and everyone has an opinion. I have live scope and I use it because it's a tool. If you don't like then don't use it. The choice is yours.
I love bass fishing and bass tournaments but, lets face it, bass fishing in general is boring to watch.
100%....you can debate the pros and cons till the cows come home but at the end of the day its just not fun to watch for the majority of viewers (multiple polls now). I watched about 25% of what i watched last year because I am tired of it being FFS EVERYTIME....
The problem is EVERY tournament is being won with FFS including Okeechobee so now any tournament angler can find fish. It used to be a skill only the best were able to do consistently
There are some nice young anglers out there that are doing very well in the pro circuits because of ffs. I don’t think they would even be able to qualify if they banned it.
I'm more concerned about the fisheries being able to survive. I like the idea of these circuits paying for stocking programs and habitat improvements.
If MLF and Bassmaster want to do stupid things that kills their series, I say let them. I'm more concerned with fishing stocks. This really has the potential of hurting bass fishing for the regular fisherman.
They Wouldn't Qualify, like Milliken, and Trivet, are Perfect Examples, Take It Away and those Guys, along with Several Others WOULDN'T BE THERE!
Ask these 18 year old snots if they could catch these fish without these tools understanding Seasonal patterns- Underwater Structure - PH levels - Thermocline- Finding Weedlines and understanding how and where fish approach
These weeds when coming in to feed- understanding how barometric pressure from a storm can affect how a fish reacts and its staging movements- How current flow affects bait placement- Learning where they go during the different seasons- Which bait to throw?- Fast or slow- Does color make a difference- Seems these kids just want immediate gratification and don't want to put in the work
Foward Facing Sonar is the PED Performance Enhancing Drug of bass fishing.
well put .. That is exactly right !!!!
I appreciate your perspective man. I’d love to see FFS taken out of competitive fishing. It takes away from the tradition of the sport and what it means to be a good angler.
I like the idea of a few non-livescope tours during the year just to see the separation of who's at the top when they have to find fish with their brains.
Randy is not blowing smoke , he means well for the fisheries. Not just bass .
Randy says most of that stuff for views imo.
@@nauseous001not at all. He has been pushing this for 2 years now. That’s not just for views.
If Randy is that worried about the fisheries there is way more he could be doing to really help ffs is nothing compared to what he could be doing let's be honest.
@@briandjr like what. I can tell you for a FACT that my home lakes are being depleted due to FFS. That’s a fact. They are raping these fish and PEOPLE are so ignorant when it comes to conservation. They only worry about what they want. I have watched one of our local lakes be completely depleted of crappie.
Andrew that sounds fair to me . That is the best solution I’ve heard about the topic.
I don't know how you can ban the Alabama Rig , but FFS is ok.
Completely agree
Money....BIG money!
Major League Baseball doesn’t use aluminum bats? 360 is not live.
I will quite watching if they don’t.
How about bass conservation and restoration?
Maybe a good meet half way solution might be to allow FFS for practice but not during the tournament. That's a way to still learn and locate areas but not have them on screen during the event.
the problem is all the dudes who use ffs sonar are becoming so programmed that they cant even make a cast without having an easy presentation. Fish in open water move so fast that trying to intercept them without ffs even if you are in the right area can be nearly impossible.
Thats an awesome idea!
How are you going to police that though? You would literally have to take everything out and put everything in for every tournament.
@@briandjr easy take out the unit after unplugged its a less than a minute process, plus they do polygraph. Also they usually have a Marshall or coangler in the boat to keep anglers honest, shouldn't be an issue.
@@rodneystewart7334 not in every boat though and all it would be way to easy to have a unit stashed away somewhere... the polygraph I'm not sure how that works if it's random or the top 10 or whatever
A very fair perspective, I appreciate it. One factor in play here is the watchability of an FF sonar tournament on live coverage. While fun and effective to fish with, it's boring to watch as currently shown on live coverage these days. Maybe that gets improved. Generally speaking, FF sonar dominated tournaments are no fun to watch. If enough fans stop watching, advertising and sponsor revenue decreases. Angler payouts decrease (the very thing you are concerned most about, rightly so). Another factor is the dominance of FF sonar doesn't seem to be seasonal or conditional. Most of the techniques you mentioned in your explanation may dominate at a time of year or under certain conditions. Competitive fishing is at the point where FF sonar dominates every event. It is becoming the only way to fish competitively, which is where some of the pushback is coming from. Honesty, there is no choice on how a competitor must fish if he/she wants to get paid, even at the BFL level it's a must. That said, it is what it is. Life is full of choices. I have had to cut back my tournament fishing because of cost, with FF sonar being one part of that. For those who can compete more than me, no hate from me. I do not hate on those who use it or young anglers in general. I do lament the rising cost of a good, nicely rigged boat. I have been a bass fisherman and bass fishing fan for as long as I can remember. I spend plenty on it by choice. But, there are limits. I feel like I (and many others) are being squeezed out at all levels. The FF sonar debate is a microcosm of the bigger issue of cost, and payouts too for that matter. Thanks for the opportunity to share my thoughts and observations.
Well said
All this talk about forward facing sooner I would agree there needs to be limitations. Just like there needs to be limitations on tournament fishing. In general, I've watched our fisheries degrade continually for the last 40 years due to the escalation of tournament fishing. I need to be somewhat limitations. I'm restrictions placed there equally. As important for regular weekend anglers can children?
You can catch all the fish you want and win every tournament, if nobody watches you, you stop getting paid.
Most, like me, don’t like watching it on tv or CZcams or streaming.
The viewers will ultimately be the final answer
For sure.
I refuse to watch until it gets banned. @@AndrewUpshawFishing
I hear ya. Personally, it’s sort of embarrassing for me as a life long conservationist minded person. I enjoy technology, and I do think Livescope is pretty cool. Watching guys on TV who are supposed to be professionals chase fish around with it casting at the bass in real time is a turn off. I compare it to Rambo hunting whitetail from a helicopter with a high capacity mag. No sport in it. Might as well let them fish with a cast net. I gave up watching the Pros a couple years ago. I still can’t make myself buy Livescope. Most days on the lake, I don’t even turn on my single unit on the bow. I even “upgraded” my trolling motor recently to a state of the art MG “X3.” Works great, and more sport in it for me.
Nothing beats the old bassmasters tourneys! When ya had to find your spots ! And your fish ! Instinct! These young dudes are nothing * without FF sonar
Agree,
@johnm2617 I'm not saying I'm a huge fan of it but these anglers still have to find the fish on "instincts". FFS just helps them dial it in.
Old bass paid guida to find fish for them, even had them m in th boat during practice. So start to look at when certain rules came into play. Then you can see why they were put into place.
I like watching the old tournaments myself
They put me to sleep, period. I don’t give a crap if they’re using FFS or not. Don’t be so jealous, dudes. Save up and buy yourself one of these awesome units.
I have Garmin Livescope on my Bass Cat and while the technology is phenomenal I honestly wish they would ban it from tournament fishing. I’ve definitely noticed a difference in fishing pressure and the fish behavior from it. I’ve seen fish spawning in much deeper water in my home lake down in Florida and it’s making them much harder to catch. Technology is great but I think FFS is just putting too much pressure on the fish. I’d rather get back to having to use your own experience to find fish and put patterns together
It’s a tool that takes away the sport and skill that bass fishing was known for. Let it be used for practice but not during tournament days. Not everyone has the money to put all that on their boats either. It is what it is though.
I can promise you, as an avid user of ffs, it’s far and beyond more challenging than figuring them out doing something else. At least for me it is lol
Makes pro fishing unrelatable
How u going to make sure there unit is turned off in tournament
@@jaypowers2258easy, make them remove the transducer….
@@AndrewUpshawFishing Its definitely not as easy as most people assume it to be. With that being said its really not that difficult either if you are efficient with your electronics. Saying that you Cant outlaw ffs in a tournament right after saying you agreed with the blade, wire and hook limit on the A rig makes no sense. There has to be a limit as you said repeatedly. Most of us think having 360 imaging, side imaging and down imaging is plenty to fish with. The limit is live scope for MOST people.... just like B lat said you are preaching your agenda here.
Everybody criticizes Randy for his opinion, and say that he's fighting for his personal agenda. Randy doesn't even fish tournaments anymore so that doesn't make sense. He's always fought for the environment. He has valid points for his argument.
The thing I always find interesting is all the high level tour anglers seem to be the ones fighting to keep FFS, and the ones who don't want to see it on tour are the fans. Because it's boring to watch. I have it and I love it for recreational fishing, or for pre fishing/scouting. But I cannot watch the northern swing, and I'm not the only one. The ratings tanked big time the last month, wonder why?
If they want to keep their ratings, they will make the right decision.
Lol! I’m not knocking Randy, but Randy doesn’t fish tournaments anymore because he makes too much on CZcams! I promise you this, if they banned it you would see Randy start fishing again. But I might be wrong.
No, there are high level pros wanting it banned because they can’t compete anymore. That’s a fact. And the fans are mixed on it, not everyone is against it.
Lastly, the Northern Swings of these events have always been the lowest viewed events. Before FFS you used to drift for miles to find fish, and there is nothing more boring than watching a guy drift for an hour and not catch anything. As far as views go, no one knows what either organization’s views are. People need to stop guessing lol
@AndrewUpshawFishing what am I guessing about? That MLF and BASS care about their ratings? That doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me.
And also, Randy has said he's too old to compete against these young guys. He admits that he's a dinosaur. But he does have a wealth of knowledge of what he does best, shallow water fishing, and throwing a jerk bait. I think he's found his niche, he has a little boy and a family. Why would he go back to being on the road?
I don't necessarily agree with banning it. But technology is going to keep improving. Soon we will be able to see fish all around our boat and know what species they are. Where do you draw the line at?
To me 360 is OK. Its just sonar. DI, and SI are OK. Live imaging is where it gets tricky.
Randy makes his living from youtube and the more contraversy he can stirr up the more views he gets. He always brings up the environment and lectures everyone on we should do like fish commando don't use a hot foot don't use braid to fluro. He is known as a great jerkbait fisherman but without ffs he doesn't stand a chance in competition. If ffs gets banned he will compete again and hopefully he will at least wear underwear!!
It’s not as boring to watch or as hard on the fish as spawn tournaments.
Randy fishes the Toyota series events
It's about the viewership too. I think it's tough for a regular viewer who's not an avid angler to enjoy watching pro fishing. Having viewers who aren't bass fishermen might help the payout too. If normal people can't relate or enjoy watching professional bass fishing that hurts everybody. Most people don't wanna watch guys stare at a screen all day
I really wish BASS was in a better financial position to not be so beholden to sponsors like Humminbird , Garmin, Lowrance etc.
But they are.
I guarantee if BASS was in a better fiscal position, the decision to ban FFS would be a LOT easier.
Most anglers aren't going to 'Risk' anything financially by speaking up against FFS, that's just the sad truth.
It all boils down to money . . . if the organizations & competitors weren't hanging on by a thread, this wouldn't even be a topic . . .it would already be DOA.
I say 'Ban The Stupid $h!+' . . . but that's easy for me to say as a 'Fan' . . . . but I will say this, I watched MUCH LESS event coverage last year than any other year in the past.
Edit - Ohhh . . .and another thing . . . not that this 'mattters' , but do people understand how completely STUPID their bass boats look nowadays ??? It's actually embarrasing. Just sayin.
Couldn't agree more. I can't fit more than a 9" unit behind the console of my Gambler. . .and I WONT hang two giant iPads in front of my face because guess what? My boat looks badass just sitting on the trailer, and I will not mess with those sleek lines.
Banning FFS is just a dumb idea. Professional or not, it's dumb.
@@Milehighsnake98
It's called conservation in the right way.. Go out and shock them up next time your out so it'll be so easy for guys that have no skill..
@@Irishmule169Tell the world you know nothing about it without telling the world...
People act like this is for the fans and its going to improve ratings for the tournaments. Just like the BPT going to a 5 fish limit was about the fans. Come to find out none of that was true lmao. Its all about people who aint winning and whining about it.
This comment wins
Andrew I think your totally missing the point on FFS. The big issue is that the Fans of Tournament fishing who watch on Live ( Elite, BPT, TW Pro series, NPFL) find watching FFS Tournaments “ boring”. So loss of viewership = loss of advertising = loss of the more payouts your looking for. Yes I’m sure there are a lot of the older Pros lobbying against for personal reasons but the bigger issue is what do the Fans want to watch. I said this on another sight, my 2 favorite events to watch this year: Elites at the Sabine River & the BPT Heavy hitters event at Bussey Brake where little Alton lit them up a Spinnerbait in the trees! That’s the good viewing stuff! Watching FFS Tournament like watching paint dry!
I completely understand that point honestly. I’ve said in other videos I believe they need to figure out how to relay the screen of the pro onto the big screen that we watch. Furthermore, the pros (not anyone specifically) who disagree with it are using the “viewer” as their reason to not like it, but in reality they don’t like getting beat by it.
I know you guys don’t want to lose FFS but Bassmaster and MLF are losing money and probably sponsors when they start their northern swing and lose almost 80% of their viewers. If their ratings tank, so does your payout. I watch most tournaments from both, but when they go up north I don’t even keep up with it. Just my .02
Ok, I understand the northern tournaments are boring. But honestly, they have always lost viewers when they went north. And to be fair, how do you know they are losing anymore now then they did then? We don’t know. None of us do. And sponsors are dropping either organization for that, because sponsors are seeing the end of year numbers, or an average per tournament.
How much more viewership do you think BASS would get if they forced the elites into 18' boats, with a gps unit, a flasher and 150hp? I would watch the hell outta that.
They should play musical chairs, or a quick elimination MMA bout for the opportunity to use the ONLY f.f.s. allowed each elite series...that would make up watching these guys twitch stream there brush pile game!...then allow special rules the non f.f.s. guys can do to give more even shot....tear gas...paintball guns?
@@920fpv Just make the one guy that gets the FFS have to dress up like one of those cyclists in all that skin tight crap that they wear.
@@life_of_riley88 with electric dog collar and wear clown shoes
I’d probably stop watching that. Wouldn’t be very relatable to me since everyone on the local club has 20 foot glass boats so they don’t die on Lake Ontario
@@devinwillis7787 great lakes/northern lakes are a different animal. I just think that we're losing some heritage that's not good to lose, people like to see the challenge of figuring it out on the water and video game fishing isn't really that exciting to many, myself included.
I understand a professional has to use FFS to compete. Clent Davis said it best at SLR, he called it the cheater scope. My problem is two fold, it is boring as hell to watch, and secondly, when young anglers who have no life experience in angling, can buy electronics, go out and beat anglers who have spent years and years learning patterns, seasonal movements, etc. These young anglers without FFS, would be broke in two years. FFS is like spotlighting deer. It's illegal. Any sport depends on its fans, if you lose the fans because of a boring product, you guys will all lose in the long run. Think out farther than next year.
I won’t comment on Clent Davis or how he’s finished in the Elites. What I will say is you’re right about the younger anglers being broke without it. But isn’t that what people are pushing for? To ban it, therefore breaking these guys who have grown up using it? FFS is not the same as spotlighting deer. I personally hate that a analogy, a deer freezes when they get spotted and get shot. A fish gets hit with the scope and they still swim around, leave, eat, they do whatever they were doing. It doesn’t guarantee a catch, nor does it shock them to sit still to catch either.
But isn't ffs doing the same thing to the veteran anglers? Hallman did a great video explaining how the average age of top finishers in the Toyota series has become younger since ffs. Castledine didn't know any of the top ten at the championship. I'm a big fan of all you guys, but I worry about your future, because of ffs.
My future is always at stake. Heck, I almost retired last year if I’m honest. But not because of FFS, but more so because I want to spend more time with my son.
Either we adapt or get left behind. But to me that’s no different than when side imaging came out. It literally was the same cat and mouse game, just a little different.
You don't get it Andrew. When the sonar fishing technology, and sonar fishing technology user. Becomes the entire population of competitors that fish in competitions. What is going to happen at that point. Is the only bait that anglers are going to need. Is a jerk bait lure to cast at the fish, that anglers can see on their screens. In order to provoke a reactionary bite, and cause that fish to take. Look at what happened on Okeechobee in 2023. Someone who went out to catch some edible fish for a different species. Stumbles into a shoal of bass which no one was on. And that is how that tournament went down. Using a jerk bait lure on Okeechobee in the early spring. The point is that, when technology reaches it's one hundred percent penetration level (that's what technology does, look at personal computers, look at mobile phones). When I was growing up, they did not exist. And now the stuff is everyplace. What happens then. Is that all of the tackle. All of the lures. All of the gear that anglers know and anglers love. That all goes away (the reason all of those different tackle and lures exist now, is because for decades there was no sonar technology). Which cancels out the need for different rods, reels, lines and lures.
There was a famous fly fishing competition. Gary Borger who was a competitive fly fishing angler back then remembers it. Gary would be a very interesting guest to speak to some time (maybe a guest for the Zaldain and Treat show?). Gary competed against the eastern European fly fishing teams shortly after the Wall came down in the nineties. And they had arrived to the fly fishing tournament without fly fishing equipment (they had nothing like that in the Soviet system, all they had were heavy spinning rods). And they had used heavy electrical motor parts for weights. Spark plugs almost literally. They did some kind of Carolina rigging technique with the spark plugs and the spinning poles. In a fly fishing tournament. And they won.
So, I get where you are coming from. But that couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s not as simple as tying on a jerkbait and catching every fish that you see. It’s the exact opposite actually. It’s so hard to catch fish sometimes using it. Doesn’t matter what you throw. All the baits you mentioned could be used on FFS at any given time. Not to mention, a jerkbait winning on the Big O isn’t that crazy. The lake was fishing really tough. Had the lake been fishing normal, FFS wouldn’t have played at all.
This may sound a little bit like Rocky Four. But when technology establishes it's foothold in freshwater fishing in America. And it takes over. What you'll start to find. Is that all the things you like in fishing equipment will start to disappear and go away. Who knows, eventually you may end up using spark plugs too. Because this is what technology does. Anyways, aside from Rocky Four and fly fishing tournaments. The key intellectual resource, or conversation about this. Happened around two decades ago. Where a pointy headed Harvard based journalist and provocateur named Nicholas G. Carr. He wrote an HBR article named 'Does IT Matter?' And the article was later expanded and published in the form of a novel. That's the text that one should read. In order to contemplate this subject. What he argues is that eventually 'information technology' does become an arms race. Where no one competitor manages to extract an enormous competitive advantage from the use of new technology after a while. So on the one hand, everyone is using it. And no one gets any advantage from it's utilization. And at the same time, if you cease to spend money on staying up with the 'arms race'. They you are ruthlessly and unceremoniously, wiped out. And that's what you're seeing on the Bassmaster Elites in 2023. The arms race aspect to this.
There is one contribution that you may have neglected to mention. I can't recall at the beginning of this Andrew Upshaw episode (number 157). I listened to Kyle Welcher, who I understand had won a title of some kind on Bassmaster in 2023. And when I thought about Nicholas G. Carr and his arguments of two decades ago. As I listened to Andrew Upshaw's argument here. I was reminded of how similar, an angler such as Kyle Welcher is. In how he articulates 'his position' as best as he can. On a short episode on the Kyle Welcher channel. How similar that sounded, to the arguments that Nicholas G. Carr had heard from companies in the early 2000's. When he interveiwed chief executives, and chief operations officers. In the large companies back then. They had the same kind of relationship with technology too. They couldn't figure out what, if any competitive advantage that new technology gave to them any longer. Yet, they were painfully aware. That if they didn't not continue to pour a percent of their earnings back into that area of information technology. That they couldn't even 'stay in place' (like on the thread mill where you're running fast, to not go any where).
Lastly, to wrap up. What you're seeing on the Bassmaster Elites at this point. Is a cohort of very experienced and skilled practitioners. Who are diverse in their strengths and in their approaches to angling. That's valuable from a viewership perspective. What happens, when you lose that? The one horrible thing about technology, is that you lose that diversity. And you end up then having to fabricate it in some way (i.e. where anglers start having to perform stunts and become comedians, just in order to fake that diversity). That you see in the Elites series at present. Remember when Rick Clunn went to South Dakota to fish a tournament on the Elites.There were three large mouth bass in that whole lake. And Rick Clunn weighed in two of them. That's real diversity. When those generations of anglers age out of the system. When the Chris Zaldain's are gone, and the Todd Castledines. What are you then left with? A whole bunch of guys, that you have to hype up. In order to make them appear different from each other. Even though they aren't. You lose a big chunk of what makes the thing worthwhile to follow, from a viewership point of view.
It’s a killer for pro am events. I’ve decided next weekend will be my last Mountain division BFL. Every tournament in that division is a ffs event.
I understand why most pros use livescope. I does help anglers catch more fish and learn bodies of water easier and faster but I’m still against it. It’s beyond boring to watch. The two other reasons I’m against it is that most weekend, recreational or even small local tournament guys can’t relate to fishing anymore. It’s gotten out of hand the dollar means nothing. We can’t get behind guys with $75,000 trucks towing $100,000 rigs with $30,00 worth of electronics and 50 plus rods and reels who only promote the latest and greatest stuff which is out of reach for the workin man. The other reason is that most people who are into the sport love that old school style of Denny brauer flipping bushes or dean Rojas froggin. These technology driven tournaments aren’t our cup of tea. Maybe in 20 years the current generation will love this stuff and see as their grass roots fishing. if livescope is here to stay there should be some sort of restriction otherwise I think the fan base will be hurt the most of any group. Just my two cents. Appreciate your honesty Andrew and always sharing your opinions.
Here's a good one for u all.Mount the red easy button next to your power pole stomp button,so when they take it away u just stomp on it when u can't catch a limit and "Bam" a 20lb limit in your livewell.
Andrew, I don’t have FFS but fish with friends that do. I now find it hard to fish without it, or at least wish I had one when I go out alone. I think the problem with FFS is that you really don’t have a choice if you are a tournament angler whether to have it or not…..you have to or you are at a huge disadvantage - hands down. If you were a competitive race car driver and someone developed an engine that was 3 times as fuel efficient as anything else, thus eliminating pit stops for those using it, you would HAVE to have it and use it or stop competing. Same goes for all kinds of HP, tires etc there are things that you choose that puts you into specific categories so the playing field is level.
The only fair solution here is freedom of choice. If you don’t like it and won’t embrace it then start your own bass league that doesn’t allow FFS. If the majority of people feel that way they will join your league and the others can have their way. However, if you want to play in the big leagues and they allow it then you better embrace it or find another hobby. That’s my $0.02.
I'm a subscriber and enjoy your content, but I think you are missing the main point. No one wants to watch livescope tournaments, period. That is how BASS makes some of their money. It's through ads on the live feed. I don't have livescope, it's just not how I want to catch them. But I'm also 59 years old and video fishing is not for me. I don't think it should be banned, but BASS has to accept that most people don't want to watch it. Even though Northern fisheries are awesome, no one wants to watch them whether livescope is used or not. It's just boring. Okeechobee was won this year using livesope, but there were enough gus punching mats and flipping and throwing topwaters that kept it entertaining. Keep up the good work.
Appreciate the sub. I lost a few subs after posting this video, so there is that. But I don’t miss the point. I look at all points of view. But ultimately that’s on BASS and MLF. Neither of those companies pay my bills. If they aren’t doing a good job showing the tournaments, that’s on them. I agree, some things have to change in order for them to survive.
A few years from now. Let alone 5 to 10 years. How much more advanced (better) is forward facing sonar going to be? And is it ethical to have that much of an advantage over the fish? I know most people won’t care about this 💁♂️
Stop calling it a professional sport when you have to PAY to play. This is gambling as you’re trying to win back your entry fee & the commutative pot of entries
Andrew I really don't think you get it, this FFS issue is not about the Anglers. It's about Fans! Fans are telling the Fishing Organization that we don't like it and we want watch FFS Tournaments. If Fishing loses their Fans, their gonna lose their Sponsors.
Andrew,
Main point to consider about the FFS is not wether the old guard can use it or its an advantage etc. Its the fact that less people are watching/ staying tuned into LIVE due to the how boring it is to watch.
Im tracking your giving the Pro,s perspective but if the fans are not watching then the sponsor money disappears.
My suggestion is to limit the Pro to only being able to use it for 3 of 8 events etc and they need to pre pick before the season starts.
Not saying the thats the solution but there is a big red flag that fans are not enjoying FFS on live coverage.
People love using it but hate watching it.
I will only say As a fan of the sport if they want people to tune in and watch these tournaments they need to change something because I was drawn into watching tournaments from Hack flipping heavy cover or Swimming A jig in Lilly pads . Rojas skipping a frog under overhang, KVD throwing a squarebill at Cypress Trees.. not the entire field staring at screens playing video games! I mean Okeechobee was won on Forward Facing in the Elites this year and that's just Boring AF!
The damage is NOT done! I recently meet 3 guys who never fished a day in their lives, just moved here, bought a 70k boat with 20k of electronics, they had 10ft surf rods Carolina rigged with circle hooks and shiners. They could barely get the boat back on the trailer. They kept a limit of bass, bluegill, specks and every single thing that was hauled into the boat. Over 200 fish! There is no way these guys would have been capable of this without FFS. I THINK THE HARRIS CHAIN SHOULD BE FOR LOCALS ONLY! YOU ARE WORRIED ONLY ABOUT THE PROFESSIONAL ASPECT OF THIS, BUT THE REALITY IS THAT ONLY 20 PERCENT OF FISH CAUGHT IN FLORIDA ARE FROM TOURNAMENTS! THAT’S A LOT OF RECREATIONAL ANGLERS, WHO DON’T HAVE THE SAME ETHICS AS PROS, FILLING THEIR LIVEWELLS! EXPAND YOUR THINKING PAST JUST YOURSELF.
I quit fishing tournaments because I can't afford thousands of dollars to compete at the amateur level. Only a few can afford it. The ones that have it are winning all the money.
It cost $1700 for an elite fs7 and an active target total. Cheaper than a trolling motor
i like your take on FF,,,,i agree technology is here cant go backwards,,,Im 63 and have been fishing tournaments since the 70's...I went out and bought FF early on and learned it and havent looked back,,,,what i see alot on the local level is guys that cant afford it hating on it or the guys that can afford it not learning to use it...Id venture to say that only about 25% weekend tournament anlgers who buy it get proficient with it.....its here to stay guys,like the graphite rod,and low profile reel ....just get ready for the next innovation just around the corner...
Great perspecitve!! The fight over FF sonar has definitely distracted everybody from all the other things affecting the sport and professional anglers.
States need to get involved bc of the impact to fisheries. The real damage is coming from the panfish guys. Some local lakes used to only be packed during the spawns but now they are out there most of the year and keep 100s of fish/day.. They go out and catch multiple 'daily' limits for months and months, which will impact forage and bass growth in the future.
How is the payout ever going to get better when the viewership keeps dropping ? No eyes on the screen = no TV deals. Fox will drop BASS and it will have to be only available online. Bass/mlf need better quality TV production for it to survive
Ok let me ask you this. How do you know the viewership is dropping? What tv numbers are you looking at? Who has provided any of those numbers? I know people use this as a reason, but honestly I haven’t seen any of them.
You will
I think you should be limited to only 4 rods ready at any time.
Crankbait
Worm
Spinnerbait
One of your choice.
If you come to a pattern where change is needed, well you lose time fishing depending on your ability to reset your rod.
You're supposed to be the best. Then prove it. All those extra says you're prepared, but it doesn't say you can adapt as needed.
I made this same comment on someone's video. I am a Nascar fan and like the idea of having a variety. Restrictor plate, short track, flat track and road races. I prefer restrictor plate races, but many dislike them. Why not allow FFS in some tournaments and not others? I grew up following the founders of bass fishing on television and always, I was jealous of their pure abilities and/or instincts to catch fish. It did not seem real to me that anyone could know that much about fishing to be that much better than us mere amateurs. I want this back in the sport. Someone's inability to master electronic devices (like me) should not dictate how good they are at fishing. There needs to be a change here so we can see true fishing skills. I can see having depth, temp and even navigation devices, but this is minimizing skills of the past. .
You hit the nail on the head when you said "do we need to throw out everything we've got the last 20 years because a couple anglers didn't change with the times" the answer is no...
👏👏👏
B Lat is the man.
Completely agree
Upshaw begins this by sharing Latimer's (true) comment; " We (pros) argue for rules that fit our agenda". And then to prove Latimer's comment, Upshaw starts talking about payouts. LOL What we witnessed in the BASS/MLF split was; the pros are pretty much disposable. 80% of the names went to MLF and BASS still maintained their fans because unlike other spectator sports; it's the GAME not the PLAYERS that draw the fans to fishing tournaments. KVD just left the sport, the industry won't miss a lick, ten years from now the people that are just starting to follow the sport won't know who he is. The reason pros have to pay to play is because a majority of them aren't important enough to drive profits for the tournament organizations. For the record, I don't really care about whether or not forward facing sonar (FFS) is used in professional tournaments, I don't watch live because of the amount of advertising makes it un-entertaining. The organizations restricted or banned the Alabama rig because most all the tackle manufacturers produced an Alabama rig and for the most part, it didn't matter which one you threw. Manufacturers weren't ponying up advertising dollars to get "their" Alabama rig promoted on Bassmaster Live because they were so generic. The only reason organizations will ban FFS is if viewership declines to the point that sponsors like Pure Fishing and Strike King stop advertising with them. If Matt Herron and Gerald Swindle threaten to quit if they don't ban FFS guess what'll happen; NOTHING! Just like the fans don't care enough to boycott viewing because of the payouts, they don't care enough to boycott viewing because older pros don't like it. The fans may be boycotting viewing because it is no longer entertaining to them, but they don't care about the pros' agenda!
Andrew one question , your worried about your units going down that’s you reason to have 4 plus on your bout , what happens if you fry your lower unit ? Should we have two motors also
KVD used to carry a spare lower unit in one of the rod boxes. Some guys have spare TMs.
I would allow it in practice and the 1st 2 days of a four-day derby. It goes away when the big money is on the line.
Didn't Ish say something about the fish beginning to spook from FFS?? If so it will take care of it's self in due time.
Competitive anglers know this....that the one true key that sets individual fishermen apart from one another is their instinctive ability to find fish when it matters the most. Catching the fish is no issue. Everyone is a pro and knows how to do that. But finding the fish & quality of fish in any given situation is what sets the difference between fishermen. And it takes years of struggling to learn and pattern fish. What FFS does is that it eliminates that one true key that sets apart an individual fisherman's instinctive skill, and actually does the job for you with 100% accuracy.
There are so many problems right now. Payout for sure is #1. This isn't a sport anymore. The problem with ffs is that the technology will not stop. It's just going to get more and more ridiculous.
I agree ! With the price of boats, equipment the average bass fishing audience of weekend anglers is shrinking and from what the numbers apparently show FFS is likely going to be another nail in the coffin .
Kyle welcher’s view is the most reasonable in my opinion
I didn’t see his
It is a valid point and question no matter what anyone says.
Why ban umbrella rigs but not forward facing? Why is the former so much more unfair than the latter and why regulate one and not the other? Everyone has the ability to buy and use both so what's the difference? I'm not saying I'm against either; I'm just saying there's really no difference between them except for the obvious that one's a lure and one is a sonar but they're both tools. And just like the A rig becomes less effective over time because the fish get conditioned to it, the same can be said about the sonar🤷♂️
Banning ffs and a rigs is not going backwards.. 100% is moving forward let’s bring fishing back to the good old days where through experience, knowledge and days on the water dictate how you read a tournament!!!
I think when you get down to where the rubber meets the road it really doesn’t matter whether they use FFS or not. As long as catch and release is the dominant force that it is in this sport, what does it matter? People complain about watching the anglers watch their fish finders on TV as compared to watching their lures. They are still staring at something. I agree that this is definitely a problem for species like crappie where folks catch and eat. States need to look at it for sure and take action. Louisiana has already changed their limit/creel rules to something along the lines of a type of slot limit so a good number of brood fish are returned to reproduce.
Totally agreed. I think a 48” of screen total on the boat and one ffs transducer per boat would be a solid rule. I love ffs, but would hate to see our sport get to a point where you need 6 graphs and 5 ffs units to compete (I also don’t understand how guys use all them) lol.
One piece of technology at the steering wheel, and one at the trolling motor.
If it’s banned watch and see this will be what happens. The guys that catch fish with ffs will continue to catch them while the guys that can’t or doesn’t have ffs will continue to not catch them. I don’t have it on my boat mostly because I can’t afford it but I’m not afraid to fish against other guys that do have it.
I really think the complete ban of forward facing sonar is the best thing for the future of bass fishing. I don't say that just to be different. I have seen the devastation of my local lakes because of it. You are entitled to your view and i do respect it however i care more about the conservation of the bass than making pros mad.
Thanks for sharing. Need to get ya an Oklahoma hat would look better 😉
Heck no! 😂
The biggest issue with FFS is sustainability. People are using the technology to sit in the middle of the lake at 80ft deep catching suspended fish on featureless flats that have never been exposed to fishing pressure before. How can you sustain a good fishery if the fish have nowhere to hide. Only about 40% of the fish in a lake are roaming the shallows or sticking to cover. The other 55-60% are these suspended fish on flats. If every angler started using FFS the fish would never bite because even the suspended fish are being caught constantly. Then you have people who eat fish which there’s no problem with in my eyes but, if you have lots of people who eat their catches that also use FFS to catch their keep limit for eating every time they go fishing, it takes out so many strong, healthy fish from the gene pool. It also takes away from the anglers that spent all their lives actually traveling to these lakes and piecing together patterns, remembering spots, actually making their name for themselves because they caught the right fish when they were under pressure. Just for a rookie to sit in open water and catch the fish that may have never even seen a lure before. Id like to see tournaments just go back to mapping and 2D but Im just old school. If there wasn’t so many people making money off of these electronics companies like garmin, humminbird, lowrance there would have been measures taken against FFS long ago.
You make some good points. I’m not a tournament angler just a fan of the sport. What I’m wondering is when you say that you would be good with 1 ffs transducer what happens in the very near future when the sonar companies come out with 1 transducer that is more advanced and more effective than running 4 of what’s available today. Would you be against the use of 1 far more superior transducer that has way more capabilities and is better than the multiple sonar set ups that are being questioned right now? the advancement of this technology and new technology is not going to stop. For this reason I would guess that there will be no rules implemented on the pro level on this whole issue. Doesn’t matter to me either way I’m just following the discussion. Thanks
I like the video and agree with it. I'm 65 and old school bass fishing guy. I have a poor man's 14ft aluminum Lowes L1448M, I'm not into electronics at all,never was. Be the fish! Lost interest in watching tournament fishing on TV
So many logical fallacies, false dichotomy, non-sequitur. You were almost right at the end, a professional angler shouldn't need FFS (which is not the same as the other technology you compared it to), because they are PROFESSIONAL.
FFS is the invincible cheat code in video games, takes all the fun out and doesn't require any *angling* skill.
Agree one livescope unit/transducer...number of headunits I dont really care but like you said 4 is plently...mega 360 is what it is but dont see it as the huge advantage that ffs provides
Randy isn’t worried about pay outs ,because he’s usually isn’t in the money. So he has to find something too generate views on CZcams.
B-lat is the man.. Randy? Yeah well every sport has one that doesn’t go out quietly. My take on it is run what you brung.. I choose not to use it because of a couple reasons ( cost and my style of fishing ) but I have no issue beating guys that stare at a screen all day if my deal is working. I also have no problem getting beat by them when their way is winning. All of these tools are available to all of us, buy them if you need them.
So FFS is an issue but a lot of pros use underwater cameras to find fish, confirm cover on structure & confirm species of fish found using this technology
Soooo… I’m going to add a little to my previous post.
Deer season is obviously coming upon us or has even started in some parts. I’m seeing several post of hunters putting corn plots out.
What is the difference between hunting over food plots than using FFS??? I’m certain several of the people wanting to ban FFS are also avid hunters whom sit over food plots. Let the comments commence!!
On the pro level anything goes ! But there will not be as many that will fish local !
One thing that I don’t believe has been said is the fact that the 2 tournament organizations have to take into the account that just like anything else it’s a business based on the viewership of people tuning into watch. I don’t care if there are millions that have been spent or won on ffs, the fact is if people aren’t tuning in and ratings start to decline as a result. It’s got to go
Tournament fishing has next to zero audience anyways. The ones who complain the most don’t watch or more importantly spend much money on gear.
@@MJ_Bass That’s where you’re wrong. They rely solely on viewership. They wouldn’t have cameras in boats, drones in the sky, or go pros mounted if they didn’t want you to watch. They are a business and if their numbers start to decline they will get rid of it
I don't enjoy using FFS. Terrible to watch. The great equalizer.
That's my question too Andrew, where does it stop? Virtual reality glasses? An entire deck that is a sonar screen. Idk imnot a pro. I'm a weekend d guy who can afford ffs but chooses not to use it.but the further the pros are from what the average guy can relate to, the more you detach yourselves from the fans.
I’m not a fan off ffs, I think it’s a boring way to fish and absolutely unwatchable on tv, that being said I don’t care what tournament organizations do really I’m not a tournament angler, but I’m not watching the events where it’s a bunch of guys video game fishing, it’s not entertaining to me at all, guys like Randy say it will decimate our fisheries and maybe he has a point, or maybe that’ll never be a problem, I don’t think it’s been out long enough to say one way or another yet, so I can’t necessarily say it needs to be banned at this point, I do believe it should be studied though a long with lots of other things if it hurts the sustainability of our fisheries than it should be highly regulated or maybe even banned, but they should have hard core evidence that it’s doing significant damages to the fisheries or the sustainability of the fisheries, at least that my opinion.
Andrew you ARE a professional angler. I respect how humble you are. But you were a top tier FLW Tour pro for years. That tour was dissolved after you earned your way there and competed on it to where you were a threat every tournament. Now you are TECHNICALLY not fishing either side at the highest level available. But that isn't your fault. Anybody who has followed professional fishing last 10 years knows you're a professional. Love this channel. Keep it up
What will help on the top level like the MLF cup events let the pros keep there own boats give them an hour ride around and limit the number of units to 3 choose where you want your graphs and they have no idea what lake they are fishing until the week of and no practice
Still have to catch the biggest 5. Someone has to figure out how to do that. Livescope is just a tool
It's coming wether you like it or not.I was one that thought along these same lines,but after listening to both sides and seeing what it's really doing to the sport,I've changed my tune.
Most people have FFS,and I'm not excluding 360.They both need to be eliminated from professional bass tournaments.Young and old,fishing all kinds of game fish,from John boats, pontoons and bass rigs they got it.Sure there is a select few that can not afford it.Thats not even an issue.
Technology is not making what the true essence of a Bassmaster professional angler,BPT,MLF or whatever was truly meant to be.You want to be the best and earn your rank as a true professional,then do it by being making the sport more challenging not easier.Have other professional sports become easier with technology,no.They have true skill from a natural ability and experience from hard work.Its not a tool,more like a major handicap.
It's winning pretty much all season on most every professional your from shallow to deep.
If u took it away and brought back the challenge in bass fishing,these guys that have come on board the top ranks the last 10 yrs since 360 and FFS,they would get a slap in the face to reality.
I went fishing twice with my buddy and he has recently purchased ffs. It was literally like watching someone play a video game and our conversation was way less than before he got it. After those experiences I definitely decided I didn’t need it on my boat. Too each their own though!
I make more at the casino then i would tournament bass fishing! Lol. But seriously, I have LiveScope 12’ on the front and back. I sucked at fishing here in Missouri. It is a game changer. My biggest worry is the amount of people I see keeping game fish every time they go fishing.
How does a recreational angler using FFS have anything to do with tournament anglers using it? You aren't understanding because you are biased towards FFS. Literally the only people who are for it are the anglers utilizing it in tournament fishing because in the past 5 years it has dominated the bass fishing scene from pros to joes. And it may be AVAILABLE for anyone to purchase but lets be honest the price is a giant barrier for the average person who wants to compete. Eventually they will be on every boat with the way things are going so sooner or later it really wont hold the same advantage that it has for the past 5 years. Its just been terrible wading through this era of fishing as a average joe who enjoys fishing the local ABA's. If you couldn't afford to have it on your boat your chances of winning were drastically lower. We were lucky enough to scrape out a win fishing a shad spawn but 75 percent of the tournaments have been won with FFS.
Is it possible that someone can express a concern without it being a complaint? While forward facing sonar is the current topic maybe the legitimate concern is the advancement of technology that will obviously continue. Could it be that technology will advance to a point that even proponents of current technologies will realize it has gone too far?
Most all of the people who rail against FFS haven't even used it. If they did, they'd understand it actually takes alot of skill to get proficient at it. I use it more for locating structure than targeting individual fish.
The same people who rail against it from a conservation standpoint don't seem to understand you can use 360 to pluck more fish off beds than you ever could with FFS.
This is the best analysis that I have seen on the subject. Well done.
I disagree with you on one point: I don’t think that Lowrance/Hummingbird/Garmin would allow the major trails to ban ffs completely.
Secondly, how much extra tourism has the St. Lawrence river area, Lake Champlain, etc. received because of pros using the technology to catch more and bigger fish?
Thanks man! I agree, I don’t think they would be down for the ban either. And secondly, I think those areas are covered with fishermen right now because of ffs. So it pays off for the community
Good points good questions but don’t forget the fans help payouts by watching. I stopped watching the Northern swings a couple years ago b/c it is terribly boring. Just not sure what the answer is.
So look, here in North Carolina some trails have started to divide into a Forward Facing Sonar Group & Non Forward Facing Group based on both the anglers choice or affordability. Why can’t BASS & MLF do the same and have “both” a Forward Facing Sonar division and a Non Forward Facing Sonar division??? I am old enough to recall ALL the same arguments when regular 2D Sonar came out. Make it simple to end all the arguments one way or the other and create the two divisions.
Question is, how does FFS improve the fishing world, without removing a skill, talent ability? Used to be the better skilled pros won, not the dancing pole angler
It’s doesn’t improve anything other than youngsters ability to compete. Bottom line, FFS is not ethical, it’s a damn shame in pro fishing
I don’t think there is enough data to know what the fan feedback truly is. I’m guessing BASS will go all in on trying to cover ffs in a educational and entertaining way this coming year to see what really happens. Once there is good coverage of it the conversation will definitely change
I feel that the majority of fans who oppose the use of FFS are trying to save the necks of fishermen. Keeping your head down for an entire fishing competition is too strenuous. In reality, from a technical standpoint, many professional fishermen may rely on FFS to some extent. The standards we admire in fishermen are similar to those in other industries - hard work, extensive experience, top-notch skills, and a good reputation, rather than being tech-savvy. If you say we can't go back, then I believe FFS needs a full upgrade. It should be able to scan the front 500 meters directly, automatically track the largest fish, and communicate with them through brainwaves to make them take the bait.
We need people that look out for bass populations because I’ve seen what poor regulations and irresponsible behavior can do to a fisherie. I think live well tournaments is the most harmful thing we do. Stuffing giant bass in a box and carrying them around for hours parading them around the weigh in is a process that’s way to disruptive to a lake and kills to many fish. Bassmaster needs to switch to MLF method of weigh and release. No need to be hauling around trophy 10-15 year old fish anymore!
There is another perspective on ffs that maybe no one has touched on.
I notice in last few years the top winners in tournaments has been a constant revolving door. New competitors coming seemingly out of no where. This has to be difficult for the sponsorship companies. It can certainly come down to who is lucky enough to put the transducer on the right school of fish or the right sized fish. This could be a guy who is tournament legend or a guy who is brand new in the sport. Has to make it difficult to hold sponsers long term.
A ban on FFS would be a mistake. Professional bass fishing is only possible because of sponsorship. No angler can sustain themselves from tournament winnings alone.
Some of the largest sponsors produce fishing electronics. If pro anglers can't use the very best the sponsors have to offer, their value to the sponsor is diminished. Ad money for commercial broadcast and direct angler sponsorship are two different things.
Side imaging is nothing compared to ff. 😂😂. I use my graph for the mapping and depth 95% of the time and don’t even use the imaging. The funny thing is that im still very competitive to the guys in our local tournaments using side and down religiously. The couple that have been using ff, i am not even standing a chance anymore. Its to powerful too quickly and too big of a jump from side and down.
That's what kills me. Everyone trys comparing ffs with side imaging/ 360 totally not the same. None of those shows fish in real time swimming around the lake.
Great take. I agree, maybe limit how many units and they can pick and choose what they wanna use but you can't just ban FFS. Mega360, Side Imaging, GPS Mapping, they all help you IF you know how to use it. But what you said is very true, you don't want to go backwards.
The problem is its not entertaining to watch on television. If you lose viewers you lose sponsors and money.
@metal515 That is just a little bit of the problem, though. It is more of the older generation or those who don't know how to use FFS complaining about the ones that are winning these tournaments lately because of FFS being rookies or new to the scene. FFS is available for all the professionals to use IF they probably choose to, but those that refuse to use it or learn it complain when those who do use it wins with it because they never "put in enough time" before they started winning.
Some of these pros are using the, it's bringing the viewership down excuse to help them get FFS banned because they are losing to the guys who are using it or knows how to use it better.
If they take the ffs away then the people bitch about less fish being caught and smaller weigh'ins. And the anglers take the shitty end because everyone will be bunched up fishing shallow again.
Exactly! Or they would say they could go catch more than the pro, while using FFS lol
I understand what you are saying. The big electronic companies will dictate the future on this subject. They have more money than you and I. I agree with you about ffs. I am against it for the most part. there is a time for everything. I don't think having 5 or 6 graphs on your boat is right. Well, who am I? I love bass fishing and I don't use graphs. I have caught plenty. 11 and a half pounder is my PB. Best wishes to you in your PRO life fishing.
There will be a time when FFS will show up on fish. We have seen fish move off structure when hit with FFS. In the old days we could DI a brush top and move in on it and catch….try that now and see what fish leaves the brush…….FFS is awful to watch TV…..might be more interesting to watch the graph so people can learn what’s happening.
My helix have spilt screens. On my two up front I use one for 360 and the other I spilt the screen and use mapping and 2D or down scan
I watched an episode of team marine and it was about the rising costs of bass boats . They did a contrast of pricing of a 2020 vexus vs. 2023 vexus rigged out 4 units , are you sitting down? 90,000.00 in 2020 120000.00 in 2023 . Truly realistically only rich people and industry people, pro anglers can afford them. How soon will they be 200,000.00? This is why payouts had better increase for you guys as for weekend anglers we are shit out of luck.
No other technique can let you see the bass and bait . They think they're hiding but you can see them and they can't see you. When traditionally you can see them they can see you and they're very hard to get
It cost $949 for a lowrance active target and people say they cant afford it. 😂
They require updated electronics too don’t they? So add some money to that I think. I haven’t priced one lately, even 360 still costs $1,499.
Those that complain. Most don’t have it. Or know how to use it. Most think it’s automatic you catch em. Not the case. Does it help. Yes. You only catch a very small percentage of those your fishing for. I think a combination of better marketing with camera men filming that part for the people at home. And maybe bass planning some events that will limit its ability to dominate the event will help. But at the end of the day it’s just another tool.