How to NOT Mount a Tweeter or Woofer in a Baffle
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- čas přidán 18. 03. 2018
- I see a lot of people building speakers with rear mounted tweeters or woofers for style reasons. I wanted to measure the difference and shed some light on that type of mounting. Hopefully this helps some people make a good decision about driver mounting. Thanks for watching.
Driver measurement can be found here: www.dropbox.com/sh/j6jiieo8u7... - Věda a technologie
One of the great joys in life is surfing through the Parts Express catalogue!
I always keep a yearly catalogue on the shitter.
I recently started training Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and as a new white belt, I am often told what I should and shouldn’t be doing. One thing I hear more than most is that I should only focus on defense and leave submissions for a later in my training. After rolling with an upper belt and failing to catch him in a submission, I asked him what he thought of the “only focus on defense” suggestion. He told me “Though that is technically proper advice, submissions are too much fun not to try, even if done improperly by a white belt. And if having fun keeps you coming back to learn more, keep going for those submissions and learn as much as you can in your failure.“
I think some people strive to make DIY speakers with the most accurate sound reproduction and some people just want to make cool shit that sounds pretty good.
I'm a big fan your videos and am so glad you share your knowledge with all of us!
Kirby Meets Audio i really encourage newcomers to the hobby to explore and play. I did. I also don't really like to make negative videos like this. Man I got a lot of flack for the one about active XOers. But I see people doing this a lot and wanted to highlight what it can mean for the sound quality. I totally agree though. If someone is starting out and wants to have fun with it, go right ahead and fill their boots. Who is gonna get in their way, not me.
You absolutely do! That's one of the reasons I enjoy your channel so much, you give all this great knowledge without the arrogance that can sometimes come with it. I think what you're sharing is important and I appreciate the way to you do it. You've definitely encouraged me to take some aspects of my projects more seriously. More builders need to see your content! Thanks again for sharing!
I live both of your channels so much. many times I'm here to learn the more technical aspects, then I head on over to Kirby's to have fun watching him make a speaker that I can also make without a lot of stress and worry over anything further than a premade xover and baffle step. I do want to up my game and that's why I am here so often, but u don't always want to sit in class, sometimes u just want to make something that sounds "good" and looks really cool. thank u both so much for what u do!!
I would like to add that the format and the way Kirby produces his video's make it way more interesting for me to dive in the exciting world of diy audio! He is very focused on results and builds cool stuff that would avoid newcomers to be hit with a serieus case of paralysis by analysis... If I am sometimes looking at these videos made by experts with there thou should's and the immense amount of variables that should be considered, a bit of joy is lost. On the other hand, if in the future my 4th project came to an end, I might be looking for more information in detail and understanding of all the variables. Then I know I propably should be looking somewhere else! The content just serves different causes and is focussed towards different people! My first build will definitely contain a counter sinked baffle design, just because it looks so cool... I can thank a certain CZcamsr for the excitement his videos brought upon this great world if diy audio!
Interesting train of thought....I know I have spoken about doing different methodology on audiophile forums hoping to get some advice, but it is generally negative about all the incorrect ways of doing it. Most times audiophiles and I are wanting different results with mine being a bit more relaxed and wanting more to make something funky that works and sounds good to me. Been watching heaps of Kirby's videos and more recently yours so hopefully can get the best of both worlds out of my time in CZcams. Ps I'm about to rear mount my driver's because it looks cool with a chamfered edge :) keep up the good work guys
Great work and video! There is nothing better than experimenting with different designs to see what works in reality. Sometimes we rely too much on what other people have said and by doing so we can make mistakes which will be detrimental to the overall sound of a speaker. You applied a real scientific method and teach us not to take things for granted. Thank you!
Is highly surprising for me the lack of good information about how to design and build loudspeakers and crossovers. I think you one of the very few who give us good science based info about. Thanks and regards
Try getting a copy of Speaker Building 201 by Ray Alden. He does a really good job of integrating the major concepts of design, along with all the mathematics to apply the theory. After reading that book, all the online information made more sense - or it became clear that some folks post content without knowing what they're talking about.
Really cool that you have measured all these drivers and made it public.
On-Axis vs Off-Axis Angle measurement would be also very interesting. thanks for great video anyways.
Agree, would love to see your off-axis measurements compared to this, I believe this is where non-flush mounted baffle diffraction may have a major effect
Loved this video too, and I don't ever think that information is "negative." People gotta learn somewhere!! I was surprised also about how close the responses were. Another option for these DIYers would be to do exactly what you did in the video, and design themselves a crossover around the measurement they take with their tweeters loaded this way, if they're actually taking measurements that is... Great video, also loved the Xsim video I saw as well!!
Very interesting to see such frequency response comparison. Good job!!
Good video. Your second fixture functions as a miniature horn loaded tweeter. That is why frequencies below 7Khz got boosted. The angle of cut in your baffle decides which frequency range to boost/cut. Instead of 45 degrees try an angle of 18 degrees. Frequencies above 7Khz will get boosted and it will sound better and cleaner than flush mounting. But this quality comes with a price. The output becomes more directional and you just cannot enjoy it all over the room like you can with flush mounts.
Thanks for sharing this. I have seen this kind of tweeter mounting way too often now by unexperienced speaker builders but also by people that at the surface appear to have some understanding of diy audio. I am still suprised how well that tweeter measured on-axis with the rear mount although I expect it to be a different story off-axis.
Your Grammar is very poor.........you mean inexperience...NOT unexperience there is no such word in the English language
@@JamesWilson-lu6xe Wew WUuw Wew WUuW! This is the grammar police You are under arrest!
XD who cares about that, i can fully understand him
Keep up the good work. Thanks for the content
7:30 I am so glad you did this. I have been wondering about this trend in back-mounted tweeters which look pretty but produce a hump in the bottom and delineate at the top, and your tests show this perfectly. I would also be very curious what the off-axis response is. We would assume the rear-mounted tweeter would have big rolloff, off-axis. But we have to remember: such a thing could now be desirable, as we all live in increasingly small living spaces. So front-mount for a bigger room, rear-mount for a smaller room. And that's why I think these designs, both of them, persist. There's also one other mode of tweeter mount worth mentioning: the ghetto shed life "affix it to the front of the speaker, and run silicone rubber as a gasket" with a woofer mounted the same way. It's expectedly forward-sounding and is great for older folks who have reduced treble discernment. But if you want it to sound better for most people, the trick to that is you just find a low sensitivity tweeter and pair it with a woofer of higher sensitivity. Say, a tweeter of 87 and a woofer of 89. That's if you front-mount them, simply find a quieter tweeter, even if it's 1 dB difference. I say that because I'm terrified of resistors.
Although I'm also guessing that by producing that hump down low, they can actually cross over higher, especially considering the falloff now at the top end. So they can improve power handling this way, etc.
I'm curious to know why you would be terrified of resistors? Isn't resistance created everywhere, especially in speaker wiring?
My point is, that I'm running multiple (4) inline resistors on the Cobravic LED light conversion. 1 on each signal light to balance out the canbus input to prevent hyperflashing.
Ive also added heat sinks & installed them in a way tht they are suspended & not able to transfer there heat source to anything but the heat sink brackets themselves. So should I have more concern, enlighten me?
Eventually i will hardwire a flasher relay to the LCM to prevent the hyperflash, but the federal wig wag flasher controller & relay system is also still in place. So until i trace & remove the laws hardware which is for sale by the way, I'm confident the low/high voltage upgrades will stay cool.
This is exactly the information I was looking for. Thank you.
Great video, really clear that the rear baffle mounting will disrupt frequency response, and also may disrupt frequency distribution. You would say the rear mounted tweeter has been slightly horn loaded, resulting in the slight amplitude boost. It should be pointed out that most drivers are designed for front mounting. I usually mount the driver directly onto the front baffle, whereas most folks correctly flush mount them, avoiding that small step from the driver face plate to the baffle. If this small step makes a difference, then rear mounting would be much worse.
Does this make much difference. Im thinking of flush mounting my 3 way speakers, which for years have just been sat on the front surface of the baffle with that chasis surround edge exposed...
@@bal20 Having said all in my first comment, folks probably make way too much about flush mounting. No doubt if you do careful measurements of the two options, you will see greater issues in the resultant response graph of drivers not flush mounted. But is this difference really significantly audible? Probably not. So my take is flush mount if you have the tools to do so, but if not don't worry about it.
@@SpeakerBuilder cheers mate. It all gets you thinking though doesnt it?! Always doubt my own designs! I built my big 3 way speakers before i had router. Now im building my mk2 sub and doing it more properly i want to go and flush mount all my drivers but its a lot of work!
With a flush mount that tweeter had +/- 2 dB (or less) from 3 to 20 kHz. And in that chamfered hole it's more like +/- 5 dB. That's quite a difference!
Great video mate!!!
That was interesting! Cool comparison and explanation.
Great useful video as always.
Just a suggestion-- probably a lot of people, who are just starting to learn about speaker design, might not know what a "Zedma" file is. Many times terms are thrown out there at high speed leaving the listener saying to themselves - "what was that? a what file? what's he talking about?" Why not just say an impedance measurement file? I couldn't tell you how many times when I'm trying to learn something new, the presenter uses some cryptic term, usually pronounced so fast I have to replay the video over and over trying to strain to understand what that one critical term was. However, I thank you very much for helping others trying to learn this craft that does involve a lot of technicalities.
Appreciate the feedback. I’ll try to be more aware of that stuff.
I was sure that with baffle it will sound better, thank you for this video!
Very good information base on the actual test tq
Realy god Job. .
And nice work Room🙂
I definitely understand the loading effect of the chamfer but many times this approach is used to protect the drivers,keeping them below the flush line of the cabinet/box. A shallower piece of mdf and rounding all edges would've likely decreased the effect as well. Great piece of information,thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Thanks for the info! I have a tweeter here that has no Frontplatte to it and its pretty linear and after seeing that I don't think that i will not make some kind of short waveguide for it.
But i will still make some and test them and see if it give's me any benefit.
These lensed baffles would tend to make the output of the drivers used very directional. Professional speakers use wave guides for huge venues that cover a large area, and often the speakers are arrayed to provide even coverage. My custom built Focal two ways use flush mounted tweeters that have the top portion of the cabinet cut away like a diamond. This allows the tweet to diffract sound. When I heard the prototypes for my speakers through a high end pair of tube amps I could walk directly between them and not tell where the tweeters were with my eyes closed. Great demo. With my Denon solid state amp things are more directional, but realistically when sitting in my living room listening to music while sitting near the sweet spot it doesn't matter one bit!
ken cohagen the directivity of a waveguide can be useful in the home setting also. It just has to be understood and done properly. But definitely something that needs to be considered when building speakers this way.
I would like to add that the format and the way Kirby produces his video's make it way more interesting for me to dive in the exciting world of diy audio! He is very focused on results and builds cool stuff that would avoid newcomers to be hit with a serieus case of paralysis by analysis... If I am sometimes looking at these videos made by experts with there thou should's and the immense amount of variables that should be considered, a bit of joy is lost. On the other hand, if in the future my 4th project came to an end, I might be looking for more information in detail and understanding of all the variables. Then I know I propably should be looking somewhere else! The content just serves different causes and is focussed towards different people! My first build will definitely contain a counter sinked baffle design, just because it looks so cool... I can thank a certain CZcamsr for the excitement his videos brought upon this great world if diy audio!
Nick Csuki not sure if you were replying to someone or just a general comment, but this video was not meant to call out Kirby. I watch his videos and generally enjoy them for the same reasons you described. I put up my content for information and people can take it or leave. I don’t intend to scare anyone away with do’s and don’ts. But I will add that I come across a lot of people who spend money on drivers and materials plus a lot of time and then end up with something that doesn’t sound good. Mounting drivers like this has that potential. Those people get frustrated and scared to attempt more DIY. So I do believe I have a place on CZcams to describe these pitfalls and back it up with facts. The reality that good speaker design is not easy might be inconvenient but doesn’t make it untrue.
I hope you’ll find some value in my videos and keep watching Kirby as well. He is fun to watch. I’m rather dry to be honest. But I do it to help (not really any other good reason to spend my time on this) so I hope it can also help you.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers No! I am sorry! I did not mean to direct it to you. It was actually a reaction to another message down here! I thought I might place it directly in the comment section anyway hoping someone would relate. Thanks for sharing your expertise, I definitely watched and considered all the facts in this video. It would just be of use to me after a few projects.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers You actually gave me THE necessary information needed to make the decision an the decision I consider for my second build, so again thank you!
Nick Csuki oh ok right on. I just couldn’t tell. Glad it helped.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers I sure hope I didn't start anything! If Kirby reacts here that would be a full house! :p Just kidding... You both are very appreciatied by not just me but a lot of people! Keep discovering unknown grounds for us!
I have found your channel relatively recently and am really enjoying your videos, could you do another video like this comparing flush mounted to flat mounting? I know its a good idea to flush mount drivers, but id love to see measurements comparing them
Noobulon I may try to do that next time I do a driver test.
Amazing video!
I like your approach and your MTB.
What about directivity with/without Waveguide ?
I've been thinking. Can I increase volume level when I installed a flare in front baffle of my bass reflex full range tower speakers?
I want a more directed sound in my home theater system. So that all the sound energy directed to the seating area
Mubarak Idris what you want is a constant directivity speaker using a horn/waveguide. You should check out the SEOS speakers at diysoundgroup.com to see what I mean. It’s what I use in my home theatre. Very good to keep the sound away from the walls and forward towards the listening area.
Nice work!
I would love to see a different analysis: the same tweeter but with a 60º chanfer, since in high frequencies the wave lengh is actually smaller, so maybe with the 60º chanfer the results should be different. On the other hand, for a woofer, the low frequencies gives extra long wave lengh, so my question is, will it affect a woofer the same as the tweeter?
What about tweeter placement on the baffle? As in what distance to place it from the sides and top? Centered or offset? Is there a video on this? I'm curious what effect this has on the tweeters response. Thanks.
Offsetting the tweeter will help with diffraction on axis, but once off axis it might come back. If you do offset the tweeter, try 1/3rds like 2” from the top, 6” from the side, and 4” from the other side. There’s better choices than that, but it’s an example.
i'd like to see the frequency measurements on both 0, 30 and 60 degrees angle.
I'd expect these measurements to show even better, why you should not mount the tweeter on the back.
Thanks man! I always knew this was not ideal. Now I have some real data to back it up! Makes me wonder how smaller woofers behave in the same setup... Think it would be the same kind of result (waveguide loading in the lower end of the frequency response with a dip at the higher end? I'm specifically thinking of that ND series of aluminum cone midwoofers from Parts Express. I think the cone is slick looking, but I can't stand the odd style mounting frame. They even just released matching passive radiators which are appealing, but not if I can't get good sound while still hiding that mess of a mounting flange!
A small woofer will still have some issues around 1-3khz due to the baffle diffracting the dispersion, but as you go down in frequency it would be less and less of an issue. And for larger woofers it is not an issue at all because they become directional where the baffle edge would be a problem.
I have a question about installing boom mat baffling in vehicle around the 4ohm flat mounted speakers, (4, 300w 2-way kenwoods 6-1/2, 16gauge wiring) wondering if I should or shouldn't?
Also 2, 6×8 in rear deck with a custom drop in center shelf box 12" kenwood sub, 14gauge wiring. Would this clean any distortion or do I need to add another amp, 2ch. Mono block obviously for the sub lows?
Or should I just reconfigure the low/high gain levels on the 800w kenwood 4ch. amp that has internal & 4" external fan & led mood lights i added to the circuitry thts driving the 2-way mids which also has the tweeters on the inside?
No soundproofing anywhere else except for the floorboards ive recently insulated with heatshielding, custom rubber rhino liner done which did help with tire/wind/road noise.
I want the sound controlled, 8"Bluetooth head monitor system, linked to keyless Wi-Fi enabled detection alarm system, 3 motionsensor spot lighting/ IR cameras w/audio, onboard Wi-Fi, with talk back. 3ch.mixer PA system.
I like the sound quality & clarity from my CTS sport, on board Wi-Fi 40gig drive, Bose system which im pretty sure has been designed specifically for tht awesome sound with a few more 8ohm speakers in areas in not fimilar with.
I havent maxed out the peak amperage of the amplifier jus in case anyone responds. All electrical wiring has been upgraded to oxygen free 2/4gauge copper on all leads/grounds, gold plated terminals 2gauge, 220 watt alternator paired to 24v system for all accesory equipment, my traffic strobes, spots, flood road safety lights on 12/14gauge wiring.
I want solar added next to the invertor system so I can be ready 4 anything, but all tht interference/resistance coming from any wireless connectivity needs to be solved 1st b4 introducing any new devices. Dvds/cds/ aux /USB/boost gauge, tuner hard line in/out works without noisy interference. How do I clean up the wireless interferance mess?
Bluetooth/camera/Wi-Fi seems to be the issue, creating some kind of electrical field/wave sinking & distorting the connection which is wireless SMDH
Sofar this vehicle powered an entire house for 5 days & only used lil over half tank of gas when the power was out & thts b4 the dual batt upgrade. It's a purpose built work horse vehicle tht has fooled plenty who thought it was a slow stock vic tht still returns great gas mileage on longhauls with no check light, 4cats & muffler still keeping tht incredible 5.0 roar suppressed from all but inside the cab which barks even under the slightest throttle input, 3.75 yukon gearing, steel reinforced 8.8 locking rear dif, stage 2 severe duty suspension, all aluminum driveshaft keeps the goodyears from breaking loose & making use of tht torque for pulling heavy trailer loads without searching for gears or trying to downshift on curve
The sct sport tune compared to the trucks all around high expense & can safely haul 24ft" trailer with T-sway & brake controller used & the truck as the load. Twin intake stealthily hid behind grill w/wide rears 2" offset is the only giveaway
P.s.
Plus 1, 12" sub & dyno mat the entire vehicle for tht crispy clean & clear, undistorted sound?
Sorry but I have no idea what you’re asking. If you should use diymat? Yes if it damps the vibrations I guess that’s a good thing.
As always best audio chanel in youtube, keep the good content man.
By the way have you ever worked with TYMPHANY NE123W?
Im planning to use them as a dedicated midrange for a 3 way, if you can make a review of them would be great.
mercenaris i havent but all accounts I've read have been quite positive. Its a nice looking driver for sure. I'll keep them in mind but dont have an immediate need for that driver.
Impulse Audio hoping for the future, keep the good content man!
Cosmetic sound VS serious music... You all know where I stand on this. Some of the crap I see today is really ignorant and stupid.. THANK you for doing this test and video. Expose the frauds and the stupid for what they are.
This is exactly what I would have expected. First of all I would round over the edge so it meets the baffle plane in a smoother fashion. The extra efficiency is always worth it because you don't heat the coil as much, and you can lift the output above 7kHz with an R in parallel with a C. Rounding off the inner edge at the throat of the chamfer would also help too. Personally I think it is an excellent idea as it controls the directivity to match more what the midbass will be doing at crossover and it puts the tweeter in a plane closer to the source of the midbass. I really don't know why you aren't recommending it.
Christian Thomas I do recommend using proper waveguides. I don’t recommend doing this unless you understand what it is that is happening. That’s what I said in the video. Besides, this would not be easy to correct with how sharply the response changes as frequency increases.
As for using a proper waveguide, of course. I love them and use them all the time. They’re awesome as you said they off better power handling, directivity match, and a few other benefits. But don’t do it this way.
Have a look at Andrew Jones's KEF 104, with the MTM front. This is what he did in that product and he's currently regarded as one of the finest loudspeaker designers of today. He also used waveguides in his baby Elacs, and I think in his Pioneers too. One of the solutions to the Geddes profile is a straight line, so it's not such a bad thing for DIYers. Nor is this difficult to adjust for. That main resonance looks like a Q of 1.6 or thereabouts. If you have DSP try putting a section with a Q of 0.62, plus a first order section at the same frequency (all the frequencies the same as the resonance) and you should see something approach a near perfect response in the high pass. In a passive system a C//R will do most of the correction you need above 7k. Something like 10uF // 1R is what usually ends up being needed, but the exact values depend on the tweeter.
Incidentally I forgot to mention that one of the beauties of this arrangement is that it shades the tweeter from the cabinet edges, which is why you got such a smooth response. That alone is worth having.
Christian Thomas this just wasn’t the point of the video so not sure what you’re getting at. I use waveguides all the time. I’m aware of the benefits. The point was to warn newbs about rear mounting. That’s all.
I'm getting at the fact that I think the advice is wrong. We should be encouraging people to do this. Assuming they have a means of measurement and some sort of simulation package (or LTSpice) - and you can't design a crossover without these - then there is nothing too tricky here. if this were the case then your advice should be that no DIYer should buy the DXT tweeter. I have practically given you the solution anyway. Try the same thing with a 120 degree inclusive angle and you will get less abrupt transitions, though 90 degrees is fine. The only circumstance in which it might not work is for people doing 1st Order crossovers by ear - but that is a flawed solution in every way.
Christian Thomas ok then we disagree. No problem.
I love for what you did for us
Great video! Maybe do another video showing a curved/beveled baffle versus a regular flat face with square edges?
Joseph Crowe's DIY Speaker Building actually just finished the testing for a video like that yesterday. Comparing flat, big chamfer, offset tweeter, and infinite baffle. Should be done next weekend.
Impulse Audio Great! I suspect the differences will be more subtle in terms of a frequency response measurement.
I look forward to your next video!!
Impulse Audio : I suspect the top end was messed up in this vid, because of the poor faceplate to baffle transition; and Probably needed a longer, steeper throat.. happy experimenting:)
Great job
Great videos. one point - Diffraction audibility is worse than FR might suggest. Recessed tweeters, horns and waveguides etc, all have an audible noise floor, hence, a coloring effect and/or masking of recorded detail...
I wonder if the measurements would drastically change off centre?
wcg66 ya I meant to mention this but forgot. I didnt want to get too far into it and over complicate things but Im pretty sure it would adversly affect the off axis as well.
Then you for doing this. It drives me nuts every time I see someone blindly loading their tweeters this way. A certain CZcamsr does it all the time. I think the off axis responses would be even more of a mess, even more so in the time domain where it'll smear like mad. Think being the word, I have no measurement kit past a umik.
Jai Stanley I totally meant to comment about off axis and forgot too! Darn. But yes you're right. I would have measured it too but wanted a short to the point video.
Coughcoughkirbymeetsaudiocoughcough
CAP to be fair, I wasnt trying to call anyone out. This baffle "feature" is something I see a lot from all different DIY'ers.
Impulse Audio Me too man. Don't wanna seem hostile. I appreciate people creating content. I just think that this is more of a science than an art..
Please correct me if I am wrong, the chamfer is loading the tweeter like a small waveguide and that loading is too much on the diaphragm and the motor strength so that's why it's lowered the efficiency on the top end? So, in theory, would this happen to a 1" compression driver on a horn that is too large ? I see these old timers with 1" Altec 802 drivers on 1.5" Altec 311 horns with adapters the horns are 30" wide 12" tall at the mouth and 21" deep and they never have high's. But these same drivers on smaller horns have decent highs.
sean custer for the big horns like those it's referred to as mass loading roll off. In this case I think it might be an internal reflection in the "waveguide". I didnt investigate enough to know what is causing it though.
Just still in the learning process so thanks for the great videos. I have components for a three-way system. I still need to buy the Dayton Dat V2 to measure then I plan on using the Jeff Bagby software. I am still learning and your the only person on youtube that is posting helpful videos. So thanks a lot for posting truthful and accurate videos.
I plan to build an open baffle speaker using MDF or HDF but I can't get the thickness I want (1.5 inches to 3 inches) in any local stores. Is it a good idea to just glue sheets together?
FrakU2 I've glued sheets together to get the thickness I want. I don't see any drawback. You may see a glue line down the edge if you don't fully seal that end grain. Otherwise no issue.
Avalon charges tens of thousands of dollars for their stuff and that is exactly what they do. Go for it
can that dayton tweeter replace the one in the micca mb42x?
It cannot unless you redo the crossover.
Truth has been spoken. period.
How do you measure the response ? Thank you much!
BaoLong Nguyen that is a question that requires its own video. It’s a rather large subject. I would like to do a video about that, but as this is just a side hobby to my hobby I’m a bit slow making this videos.
Would the chamfer baffle matter if it's used in a subwoofer application?
Jose Espinoza no. The wavelengths are so long it will not matter.
I really like your videos, so many to check :)
Does dayton have some valid high end drivers in class of scanspeak, dynaudio or morel? Are they good drivers to work with?
One more thing, do you have some good idea about gasket material for sealing drivers but not adhesive one. These sticky sealants are nightmare to remove drivers later especially when flush mount.
One more thing, do you prefer Xsim over jeff bagby xover designer spread sheet?
Cheers man and keep up with good work
Zox Wolf no, not that I’ve seen. They’ve tried to make some high end drivers but they can’t touch satori, revelator, prestige, etc. Personally, SB is the best driver manufacturer. Even their cheaper stuff blows everything out of the water. For $5 more you get something the Dayton can’t come close to.
I usually just use the gasket that comes with the driver. Other wise I might use weather stripping for doors and windows. Not fancy but works for me.
Yes I prefer Xsim cause I can show other people who don’t have excel and it’s more flexible. I was 50/50 on it until Bill added active crossovers to Xsim. Now I solely use Xsim.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers Thanx mate :)
What manufacturer is SB?? SB Acoustics?
Zox Wolf sorry, SB Acoustics. They make a line of drivers called Satori that are very high end. Also budget stuff that is very very good for the money. The best out there.
Thanx man, i check these. They are beautiful drivers. I will give it a try one day for sure :)
Excellent as always.. What would be the effect of rear mounting a midbass / woofer? Will it have a similar effect as the tweeter?
bsl bl the lower the frequency the less the rear mounting will matter. In some cases, like a woofer in a 3 way, it’s probably perfectly fine to rear mount.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers The woofer I'm planning on using/rear mounting is the Dayton ND105-8. The crossover frequency would be around 3KHz to the Dayton ND20FB-4 (which in any case is built to be rear mounted so thats its flush with the front of the baffle). The reason I'm concerned about the woofer is because you have shown an uplift in the frequency response from 2KHz onwards and then dipping at around 8-10KHz. I wouldn't want an elevated 2-3KHz sector which would make the sound shouty.
bsl bl hmm. If you are really stuck on rear mounting it, then make the recess as this as possible. The woofer will be more directional above 2khz that the tweeter I used for this test. So it may not be bad. Also you can make your woofer filter stronger to push those frequencies down a little more if necessary.
The tweeter will be fine as you said.
I wonder whether a roundover would be better for a tweeter than chamfering as, at those frequencies, the transition to the baffle is going to be pretty important for reflections/diffraction (kinda like how the mouth termination is for a horn).
Adrian Rahman I believe it is better, but might need to be a little bigger. I haven’t tested that to know for sure, just speculating. I chose to show the chamfer because if you have a saw you can do it. So more people benefit. A round over requires a router or very time consuming planing and sanding. I usually use a round over, but been enjoying the look of a chamfer more recently.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers Thanks for the prompt and thoughtful reply. And completely understood regarding the greater accessibility of chamfering over roundover.
I would love to see how a roundover fares as I'm going to start my first DIY speaker shortly and, for the heck of it, will first try running a compression driver without a horn but back-mounted to the 3/4" baffle. Heresy people will say, but there's no way i can even get close to the 150/200 Hz horn I need (WAF) and I'll be listening at a pretty close distance and at low-moderate levels generally. So I figured a roundover about the same radius as the baffle-board kind of simulates a tractrix termination. Ideally, it would be an elliptical roundover but would prolly need a CNC for that!
Anyways, enough rambling from me and keep up the great work!
i heard Klipsch LaScala mid/tweet horns use a 7" aluminum driver or something like that. How do they get THAT to sound great through a huge horn lens?
I don’t believe it’s 7”. Perhaps 2 or 3” compression driver. They definitely sacrifice top end (above 10khz) to achieve a very good midrange.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers OK interesting, thanks!
If you'd like to discuss, i wonder how it could be important to work on the inside of a really thick baffle for a mid/bass driver ... assume a 3cm front plate ... so at least a cm inwards, the opening starts to decline at 45 degrees outwards (or so) ...
Wouldnt it help in some way?
If ure interested ... I plan to use some dayton rs225 on a 3 cm thick baffle ... massive birch wood
I want to have a really sturdy construction ... even plan to do a 3 way MTM design with Founteks NeoX2.0, daytons RS52AN-8, and mentioned RS225-4*2
Got some nearfield purpose here on sight. thought this would be a fruitfull solution :-)
It is rather rare to hit the exact distance 3 cm. 3 cm is about 180deg at 5 kHz. What are physical distances of diaphragms? They should be included. What is requested by crossover phase correction? That is hardest question. To be on winning side I would advice to do something I did few times - assemble tweeter with long screws and settle distance accurately with distance springs.
the loss in the upper is, as you stated.. down to the diffraction where the outer edge of the conical depression changes angle to the flat plane of the baffle and possibly from the junction between the wood and the bessel. i'd be extremely interested to see a plot of it again with that outer lip rounded over at the angle change. you'll still have the falling response but i think you can get rid of the upper dip. i saw you got a pretty good fit to the curve of the tweeter bessel but i wonder if you could get it closer with some filler to create a completely smooth transition from tweeter bessel to wood flare? much love xx
proffessasvids what you’re describing is a proper waveguide and those are excellent for improving tweeter performance, provided you understand what has change. I personally find ring radiator tweeters work very well for that.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers I followed a project ages ago where a guy rear mounted his dome tweet with a 90o conical flare throughout the baffle layers to bring the top plate of the tweet closer to the plane, the top plate of the midbass resided in. I think he was trying to avoid a higher order xover. He mentioned that the 90o conical was the least damaging to the response.. he'd rolled the lip and his tweet had an edge to work to rather than a curve like the Bessel on yours. I just wondered how effective rolling the lip would be in your tests. Another one.. why is a ring radiator better for driving a waveguide? Is it because the diagram resides more closely in one plane, rather than a dome.. who's front face is definitely ahead of the surround? Or is it due to the angle of attack on the side of the dome Vs the throat angle of the waveguide? Ive been wondering.. is a soft dome more unstable as a diaphragm due to the distances across it's face when loaded with a waveguide.. ie the ring radiator is a more stable shape with closer distances between brace points.. surround landing, former junction, and central landing xx
proffessasvids I think it’s because the ring radiator has a form of a phase plug and the Center of the diaphragm doesnt move.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers cheers man love your vids! Xx
Does anyone know if the chamfer acts the same way for a woofer? The tweeter got a DB increase on the bass region, if it does the same on the woofer, than it might actually be something that some people would want to do on their speakers in order to increase bass. I know he said that you shouldn't mount a woofer this way, so I'm not sure if there is some significant negative effect on the woofer like the sharp transition on the tweeter I'm not thinking of, I'm kind of new to speaker building.
Javi J it won’t add any bass. If there was some additional bass showing in the measurements that’s just the gate artifact in the measurements way down in amplitude. It’s ok to mount a woofer like this for aesthetics but I wouldn’t mount a midrange this way. Any driver less than about 6” diameter probably shouldn’t be mounted like that, but I’d have to measure to know for sure.
Ahh alright, thanks for the help!
Are we talking a 10x10ft chamfer ?? :)Then Yes: (otherwise the gain will be in the mid) The frequency of gain relates to the length of sound waves... expect a long horn with a large mouth (huge) for deeper notes.. More practical to stick a sub in the corner of a room. The walls and floor will wave guide (and room will suffer other effects)
What directivity measurements, 0,30deg, 45 deg etc..? the idea is that the rear mounted tweeter has better directivity perf. in this case?
tean tan a waveguide will provide directivity that flush mounting cannot. But in this case, although not shown in the video, it would be quite uneven and not good. Better to use a proper waveguide that is smooth and matched to the tweeter properly.
Conclusion: it is better to do Flush /level (AHF will be like in the datasheet), and the type in the horn can be done if you need to raise the midrange and medium-high with a decrease in the treble
Вывод: лучше делать Заподлицо /вровень (АХЧ будет как в даташите), а типа в рупорке можно делать, если надо поднять СЧ и средневысокие со снижением ВЧ
What MC are u using? And program?
Nilas Ramon Finnur Bøjden mini dsp umik and soundeasy.
There must be some benefit, no? I was looking at the beolab 90, the mid-woofers and tweeters are capped with a chamfered edge baffle. However the woofers are not, and the whole speaker is hidden behind a mesh/grill anyway. Can it be used intentionally to boost the low-end if the drivers they use are quality enough to compensate with DSP?
Thanks! great video
Christopher Chang as sorta shown in this video, if you know what the chamfer is doing to the response and you handle that properly it’s not the worst thing. Maybe even beneficial depending on the end results. But what I do want people to understand is that it should not be done unless you measure and understand what you’ve done well.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers Strange request, but can I pay you for your time for a quick skype/phone call to fill in some elementary loudspeaker questions I have (much more elementary than topics covered in this video)? I'm trying to learn as much as I can as fast as possible, and I need someone to talk me through some basics first so I can be more direct in my research. Thanks,
Christopher Chang Hi Christopher. I’ve had this request a few times so I’m thinking I might do a live Q&A stream. Then I would be able to answer lots of questions other people might have and also make it a little more fun. Thoughts on that?
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers I think it's a great idea for your community and channel. However, I'm looking for more immediate/direct communication with someone learned on the subject, like a paid consultant, to quickly answer my questions about the basics, so as to not spend time wading through bulletin boards and textbooks, or seeking youtube videos. Let me know, and if not, would you happen to know anyone that could? Thanks!!!
Christopher Chang I don’t think that’s something I’d like to do, at least not right now. I don’t think I can quickly teach the basics or help speed up the learning process. You could check with Jeff Bagby perhaps. He’s on Facebook a lot and seems to have lots of time to share that sort of thing. I think he’s recently retired or something because he’s online a lot and can probably fit in that sort of thing.
What about midrange?
Has that top end energy gone off axis? I wouldn't expect it to be destroyed by defraction.
There may be some off axis but it’s possible to be cancelled out. Energy isn’t created or destroyed but it can be cancelled by a nearby reflection.
could you explain why speakers like Klipsch LaScala use horn mid/tweet drivers to cover most of the audio spectrum and they sound amazing apparently? and a horn loaded woofer as well. can you explain why these cost tens of thousands for their signature sound when 15$ tweeters start sounding worse when mounted behind a little bit of a chamfer?
I use a lot of horns and they are amazing. If implemented properly. It’s helpful to have a horn with smooth rounded curves to it, rather than the sharp edges like demonstrated in this video. Also helps to use a proper compression driver rather than a dome tweeter, although dome tweeters can work.
The horns work well because they boost output and narrow the pattern of off axis sound (in a good way). If someone did what I did in this video, they could get decent results if they measured and new what they were doing. The point of the video was to show that you can’t just take a speaker design and build the tweeter into the back of the baffle without changing things.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers thanks for the info.
it would be awesome to teach us how to design a good waveguide
alex vladescu Old school method: trial and error; I’m sure it hasn’t changed much.
Design one? Oh man, that is complicated stuff. Go read the Seos thread on AVSforums (its reeeeeaaallly long tho).
Seos is really cheap and really good, so just use that one if you want to try som waveguide action. Comes in several different sizes.
Look up Earl Geddes oblate spheroid waveguide. He gives the formula for the diameters at each depth. You can then either build one up in layers, or create a mould, or you can do it with plasticine, or 3D print it.
@@ChristianRThomas copying a design/formula is certainly doable. Designing one yourself takes alot more know how.
You will be designing it yourself, even if you follow a formula for a profile. You will be making the choices of angles and depth and matching it to the other drivers you plan to use. I am suggesting as a professional that this is exactly what you do. In fact, if you do only what is suggested in this video shouldn't be done, you will get a better result than just blithely flush mounting the tweeter like everyone else. Even if you do nothing to correct the extreme treble, it will still be better.
Nice video, you could have also done various off axis measurements, this is where a lot of diffraction artefacts would have potentially been more visible. 😊
Ya I should have done that. Didn’t want to over complicate the issue, but I should have to really drive home the point. I include off axis measurements in most of my other videos like driver reviews.
So a chamfer for a midbass driver (up to 1300Hz XO cutoff or so) is not a good idea too??
Rick G I’d say not a good idea but might be ok.
Impulse Audio Thanks! The midbass driver would be a 12” xo’d to a horn @ ~1,200-1,300Hz.. It would be more difficult to mount it flush since the it would require precise cutouts for the elaborate rear basket/frame design of the driver (lack of carpentry experience and tools).. Rear mounting them with a gasket would be easier, with a 45 degree chamfer.
Rick G because the driver is 12” it will be pretty directional by 1000hz. I’d say in this case you’re pretty safe to rear mount it.
Impulse Audio Thank you! I appreciate it👍🏼..
As nice as they look, I hate LIFESTYLE speakers. The sound is compromised for appearance, thus defeating the purpose of a speaker for me.
I use studio monitors as my main speakers... And they still got a lot of attention and "wow" from people
What is the difference, if any, for mounting the driver onto the face of the baffle without flush mounting (so driver edge sticks out a few mm). Great videos by the way
I haven’t tested this thoroughly, but others have. The change is very slight and only for tweeters with a big flange. Flush mounting is mostly for looks.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers thank you very much for the reply. I did think this was the case (and hoped, as redoing all my driver holes would be a fair bit of work!)
This is maybe not 100% related but what about distance between drivers? How much and why? Does it differ depending on the crossover frequency?
Fear Wolf Brewery yes it matters. You want the drivers as close together as possible. This is so they’ll behave like a point source. As frequency goes down the wavelengths become so long that distance isn’t as big of deal. Eventually at subwoofer frequencies the drivers can be anywhere in the room.
Is this true for all speakers or just tweeters or just certain tweeters?
Bob Keller it depends on the bandwidth the driver is operating in. Tweeters definitely. Some mids. And the occasional woofer will be affected.
What about full-range drivers??
They won’t be affected quite as much as a dome tweeter with a more omni directional sound field. Sorta depends on the size of the full range and the diffraction edge. Still not great probably.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers Much appreciated!
What about this micro horn effect in woofers? I often see this in klipsch cornscala builds
I’m not totally sure what you’re referring to. How the woofer is mounted, or horn loaded woofers? This rear mounting won’t really affect woofers much.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers i meaned rear mounted woofer. Thank you
@@8bit1992 ya that’s totally fine. The wavelengths are long enough it won’t be an issue. A small midrange driver might cause some issues though.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers so there won't be any difference except moving acoustic center of driver?
@@8bit1992 exactly. I can’t say I’ve tested this though.
Do not know about the tweeter but it is a great idea for bass units. The reason be that if you build with a solid stiff baffle, it is usually thick. So the bass units will have less air contact if it is mounted on front of the baffle. Waaay better behind the baffle due to you do want a restrain less cone without compression and ressonance towards the baffle.
It have no real meaning in the lower spectrum of the frequencies. But you do not some kind of compression towards the baffle.
Tbonyandsteak it really depends on the frequencies being reproduced by the driver. It can cause issues for little mids. For big woofers it’s ok to rear mount. I like to scallop the back of the baffle to allow for air flow on woofers.
If you back mount any mid woofer you are certainly misaligning it with the tweeter. In general it is not a good practice to blindly back mount the drivers if you want high fidelity
reproduction.
🤔🧐 ..GREAT EXPERIMENT!!
..NOW, I’M CURIOUS TO KNOW HOW THAT SAME GRAPH WOULD SHOW WITH THE TWEETER MOUNTED JUST A TAD BIT ‘FORWARD’ RELATIVE TO THE BAFFLE (CLOSER TO A SURFACE MOUNT)..
I'm assuming this holds true for midrange, woofers and subs as well?
NatesiKness much less as the frequencies go down because the wavelengths get much longer than the recess in the baffle. It would not matter at all for subs and very little for woofers. Mids could be a problem and obviously tweeters are an issue.
Thanks for the prompt reply! Have you ever used sonarworks? I'd imagine that if used in conjunction with that software, any effects on the response ultimately won't really matter? I'm new so bear with me, but if the 45• taper is only changing the reflection angle of the escaping sound, the reason the response is different is that it is simply altering the environment the drivers were ideally engineered to. Since a response curve that sounds "good" to an individual is subjective, a design like that wouldn't actively create an objectively bad sound like phasing resonance, irreparable drop-off of a signal around a particular frequency or something as dramatic as a standing wave, right? What are your thoughts?
At most, when used on a tweeter it will change the freq response and perhaps narrow the dirrectionality of the stereo spread right?
NatesiKness well it is essentially diffraction, which is proven to sound subjectively bad. The off axis response will be all over the map, and the top end dropped way down and will lack top end. Unless you understand what is happening to the driver it’s a bad idea.
Great response, thanks again!
I actually thought some back mount their tweeters to kinda time align it with the woofer.
Michael Peters that is a possibility that I didn’t cover. If you do that you have to be careful that you account for the change in response also. Time alignment isn’t as advantageous as many people make it out to be, so I’d generally avoid this technique.
Does this apply to a woofer also?
king pin nothing bigger than probably 7 or 8 inches. But for little boom box 3" woofers I am guessing it does impact the response.
I fully understand the problem with back mount baffle design like this, but what if you did a hybrid? The aesthetics of a chamffer is really nice... What if you did a double mdf thickness baffle and mounted the tweeter to the front of the back peice and then did a thin chamfer on the front peice? Best of both worlds?
Are you by chance from anywhere around Alberta?
No sorry. Vancouver Island.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers Shoot, I thought you sounded a little like Jordan Peterson, so I decided to hazard a guess. Thanks for the tweeter tip though! I'll keep it in mind while I design my first build.
@@isaiahhiggins I take that as a compliment.
Surely off-axis will be where it really shows?
EscapeMCP yes I should have taken the time to do that cause the off axis response is probably horrible. I really just wanted to show that there’s a big difference and you need to be careful.
The off axis response will be precisely where this excels. Take my advice above to improve the simple chamfer (or get it closer to a Geddes waveguide), and you will see that the off-axis response will more closely match the on-axis, but just be a dB or so below. Rather than the response rolling off with angle it will maintain the same response, or an attenuated version of it, across a wider angle. Look up the Seas DXT tweeter to see how this generally works. this is controlled dispersion and it is a very desirable property.
doing db drags across the midwest!!!
Another thing even high end companies really mess up. A port. I listened to $38,000 a pair JM labs speakers with a front port. The port was arc-shaped. Every piece of music was badly colored by the port. That is a very undesirable, mid-fi sound. Had they engineered the port, it would be down or rear firing and properly shaped.
The big reason for doing something like a rear mount is for better time alignment with midwoofer or midrange at the desired crossover frequency. I would think with a more gradual wave guide that you can get the best of both worlds. The way that's depicted in the video is absolutely the wrong way to rear mount a tweeter and if diy speaker builders are doing this for a fashion statement alone then they should just stay away from speaker building altogether. I cannot tell you how many times i've seen real manufacturers build speakers with a recessed tweeter speaker next to the midwoofers with a huge square 1 inch 90 degree lip a few inches away from the tweeter for time alignment. so much for a smooth crossover between the mid and high frequencies.
George Zubeck totally agree. I've done a few projects with proper waveguides and time alignment was part of the reason. They make great speakers despite some audiophiles hesitation towards them.
It didn’t “lose dB” on the top end, it likely moved it off axis due to the waveguide.
What you’re suggesting is that the power response stayed the same and the shape of all frequency responses changed. I was saying it lost SPL on axis, which is the most important frequency response, IMO.
You may be correct, but we don’t know for sure. It definitely has some cancellation on axis likely due to the diffraction nature of the cutout. I’m sceptical it was made up else where, but if it was it would likely look very messed up. Diffraction usually does.
Magico?
Is this the same for a sub ?
My Turkish Life no the wavelengths at bass frequencies are so long that diffraction isn’t a concern.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers brilliant thankyou for the reply 👍
the normal way AKA the right way.
Off axis tests may have shown a worse outcome with the chamfered baffle
i think off axis measurements would have shown greater deviation VS onax measurements.
David Gale yes they would have. In hindsight I should have even just taken a 30degree measurement. I didn’t bother with off axis because it’s time consuming. But a single point off axis wouldn’t have been much. Oh well.
Some drivers are suitable for rear mounting, some are not. This one is clearly not, as it already comes with a waveguide, however, with a matched baffle, for example Dayton Reference series drivers can be used for rear mounting and a driver like ND25FN is designed to be rear mounted.
Tomas Kuruc this one doesn’t have a waveguide. Not sure the other two you mention can be rear mounted without ill effect. Have you measured them that way?
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers That round thing around the diaphragm/suspension is a small waveguide, some tweeters don't have it and some have it in form of a conical frustum. Those tweeters can be rear mounted, and you can even buy a bigger waveguide directly from the mamufacturer. And tweeter elements like Dayton ND25FN can only be rear mounted - I made a couple of projects with this tweeter, measuring included. However this is the only type of tweeter I use for back mounting, as in other cases it's rather difficult to make it right.
btw this is a very valuable video, there are MANY builders on youtube, but really just a few that do it right
Tomas Kuruc ah I see what you’re referring too. Thanks for the compliment about the video. I should point out though that that isn’t much of a waveguide. It might affect the frequencies above 15,000hz because it’s so small. The baffle change I made overwhelms the affect. I have seen similar results using a flat flanged tweeter. If someone rear mounts I suggest they measure and confirm it is working for them.
Single measurement isn't going to cut it. What about off axis?
You think off axis measurements would redeem this hack job? Axial response is pretty indicative of what you’ll get off axis. I normally take a lot of measurements (see other vids), but this case is settled. Don’t rear mount a tweeter without really checking it out first.
@ImpulseAudioSpeakers No, it's bad. But I am a data person; one piece of data is not science. What if we learn something interesting?
Specifically, I note that energy never just disappears, but I see that a few db of energy is missing above 7k. For some conjecture, can we attribute this to wider dispersion, and thus less beaming? If so, suddenly not a problem, and more of a tool to be used if that is desired.
Or not. Can't say with what is provided.
Just my 2c. Mainly because I don't have half the equipment or woodworking space that you do.
@@Psycherz the point of the video was to show people who don’t collect data and rely on manufacturer data why they shouldn’t do this. If someone does all the measurements they are welcome to rear mount and design a proper crossover. Your holier than thou science attitude does not relate to the point of the video and also reveals you don’t really understand what is completely wrong with this one measurement. Rear mounting is a terrible idea in general. Period.
What about woofers?
Silas Pfeifer as the wavelengths get longer, diffraction is less of an issue. It can affect the top range of a woofer, but not much. And it can affect mids. Just that tweeters have it the worst.
It changes time align
Like you said, although the chamfered look is kind of cool, you lose clarity none the less. Let me ask you a question or two.
1) What are your opinions on speaker grills? Specifically the steel mesh ones? Do things change by the type of metal used?(brass, copper, aluminium, steel)
2) When installing a passive radiator, does having it face in the front or in the back have a bearing? I know you can add/remove weights to determine the tone.
I'm going to build a small bluetooth kit from Epoxy Resin, And just wanted some insight.Will be a 50x50x100 setup (might not ever need the subwoofer.) with 2 Dayton Audio 65's and a passive radiator to start with.
Ken Arnold the passive radiator is like a port and produces very low frequencies only. It can be on any face of the speaker.
As for grills, they can be a necessary evil. I use them. Not much can be done about needing them sometimes. I doubt the metal type has any bearing on sound.
I sink mine in auto carpet ,short napp. Woofers flush and carpet. Lot of designs ,have fun.
*_Yep! Its called 'Time Alined'_* 👀🥴 *_...By the way, Dayton Audio has specifically designed this tweeter with this exponential horn-loaded waveguide for a reason._* 😏
Internet Marketing Maps it might have a very small waveguide, but the same problem happens with any rear mounted tweeter that should be flush mounted. That little waveguide is only going to affect frequencies above 6 or 7 kHz.
do you mtb?
Captainmakis 952 yup. Pretty well tied for favourite hobby with audio.
I'm pretty sure the off-axis measurements would be off the roof.