Tang Soo Do Tested
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- čas přidán 10. 07. 2024
- Tang Soo Do is one of those martial arts that should get featured a little bit more. Here we have four examples of what Tang Soo Do can do when pressure tested. We have two sparring sessions and two combat sports venues. Let's watch and see what we can learn about Tang Soo Do. Viewers, please give us some more footage of Tang Soo Do and feel free to explain more about the history of the martial art!
Original clips that we commentated:
• 華武鬥神（唐手道）VS 東岸殺神（泰拳） /...
• Tang Soo Do vs Muay Th...
• 2019年6月29日Tang Shou Ta...
• Karate Combat Season 4...
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Timecodes:
0:00 Tang Soo Do vs Muay Thai KOD Championships
1:14 Tang Soo Do vs Muay Thai sparring
4:36 TSD vs Wing Chun ft. Qi La La
11:04 Tang Soo Do vs Karate
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Taking notes of the people recommended in the comments for me to look at to explore Tang Soo Do more. In case I forget to search in the future: Dan Segarra, Steve Grandeza, Hung YiXiang, Pat Johnson.
The cute corgi puppy at the end is on Instagram at: pimm.so.fluffy
Shoutout to viewers Kyokushin-Kan Hong Kong, barrettokarate, Tai-Chi Kuo for informing me that there are two if not three systems that call themselves Tang Soo Do (唐手道) that don't necessarily have even the same common ancestry. I'm synthesizing the comments here to get rid of outbound links to other sites. There's a Tang Shou Dao that's kungfu based, a Tang Soo Do that's kind of like Korean Karate, and then there's an American Tang Soo Do that's a mix of Moo Duk Kwan, Shotokan, Shito-ryu and Judo.
Here's the Tang Soo Do (Tang Shou Dao) place: czcams.com/users/kingoffist
And this is 鄭翔: czcams.com/users/taiwankissu
I'll update here with more notes as I think of them to remind myself and anyone watching.
Don't forget Chuck Norris too, ol buddy!
@@HeavyMetalRonin402 He was just a point fighter
czcams.com/video/dTP16HPFMms/video.html
Here is video i promised. Chen tai ji vs wrestling
The tang soo do guy is doing it by the book,steady easy,just gauging the other guy sizing him up
@@cfG21 lol That video is bs, fake
Tang Soo Do is Kickboxing with forms and a few very rear throws
As a Tang Soo Do practioner I can definitely agree with that.
Tang Soo Do is karate. The forms are all found in Shotokan. And they have deeper stances, which is the northern Chinese influence. They say Taekyon and Subak- but I’d suppose even that came from Northern China. I have a second degree black in Taekwondo and Tangsoodo. When a school says they teach ‘Traditoonal Taekwondo’ this is what they are talking about. A school will teach ITF/ATA forms and WTF forms. But, the traditional portion is the karate forms. It translates to Chines Hand Way. But it’s Korean Karate. Any training will differ and depend on your school as far as sparring intensity, padwork, cardio, strengthening and stretching. As most schools will.
I'm one dan black in Seibu Kan Shorin Ryu Okinawan, sad that my school closed in 1999. I sure miss the old days.
you're basically right except taekkyeon and subak are 100% indigenous to korea. i think TSD claims that those indigenous arts influenced TSD are kinda dubious because you're right, there's so little that i see in TSD that isn't karate. but the influence from subak/taekkyeon may come more from training methods than technique.
but "subak influence" is always a suspect claim bc subak is so largely lost to time (the japanese occupation played a large role in wiping out indigenous korean martial arts, as colonization often does. colonizers don't like it when the colonized know how to fight.)
also taekkyeon afaik was largely treated as a folk game/sport and is t to this day (it's survived better than subak), korean warriors had more focused fighting systems. those i don't know as much about, and some of those indeed are largely Chinese influenced.
actually taekkyeon shares a lot of similarities with capoeira, played to music, basically only kicks and takedowns, even a stepping pattern like the ginga that takes the place of a neutral fighting stance. but capoeira was trained as a disguised fighting method and doesn't have much of a formal competitive element, even though it is treated as (and literally called by its practitioners) a game, there's never been a point system or anything like that that really stuck. Capoeira games can certainly demonstrate one player's superiority over another, but usually more holistically rather than by any scoring system. straight up full contact fighting and knockouts are relatively rare unless the vibes go sour and people start brawling........ which is not that uncommon lol.
taekkyeon has always had a formal competitive element though, idk if the points system nowadays is relatively new but there were always a winner and a loser in each game
@@neokimchi took awhile to read.
TKD as well as TSD is nice as a sport, if you look for anything else, look further.
No, karate is different. Shotokan is not real karate
Tang Soo Do is a traditional martial art that teaches respect and self defense techniques. It has some very powerful kicks when executed properly. And self defense techniques against knives and grabs and throwing. I’m a 5 th degree black belt 7:04 Master who’s been training for 33 years.
It’s great for you physical health and mental well being and discipline!
Master Clark
Great video! I knew as soon as I saw the MT guy in the first segment, TSD guy was toast. One kick, 2 kick, 3rd kick BANG head shot when he dropped his guard
I did both TSD and TKD and sparred a few professional kickboxers and muay thai guys. We went light as i was new to this type of fighting. Thankfully I had good partners who worked me without breaking me, allowing me to know and work my deficiencies. I left my ego at the door and learned as much as I could during those 6 months before moving. Don’t do anything fancy and just listen and learn.
Thanks for this post. I studied Tang So Do some years ago but hear about very little.
"American Tang Soo Do Hyungs: A Guide to Black Belt." It's one of my favorite martial arts books.
I had fun watching this, TSD is an interesting martial art ☺️.
Thank you for sharing ☺️.
Tang Soo Do is Shotakan Karate. It's the same movements, the same kata/poomse, even the same uniforms. The characters with which "Tang Soo Do" are written, when read in Japanese, are pronounced "Kara Te Do."
None of this will stop Tang Soo Do instructors from telling stories about TSD being invented in the 12th century to kick Mongols off their horses.
Tang Soo Do is a mix of Shotokan karate and Tekkion (Korean Martial art) the kicks are unique to Korean Martial arts.
Honestly, that goes for any Korean martial art after the 40s.
Lmao
@@alter5057 kinda is tho
Tangsoodo is karate
Yudo/judo
Kumdo/kendo
You're close actually the we Korean translation for karate is not Tang soo do. It is actually Kong Soo Do. And yes, love the x pants of Creole did go to Japan and learn to love Japanese style karate. But after the war they wanted to koreanize everything to have a sense of pride. Hence Kong Soo do. Which also spawned off into taekwondo
First time to watch. My son is a professional MMA and Muy Thai fighter in China and Thailand. He has been in the martial arts since a very young kid. On occasion he will use various kicks from a variety of arts he had learned over the years in his Muy Thai fights. I remember his first pro Muy Thai fight he head kicked a guy and koed him instantly. Despite being a very good Muy Thai fighter he will use legal kicks in his fights that are from other arts. Also his BJJ and JUDO and Other grappling arts appear to give him a very good advantage when there is a clinch.
Jerry, I love your channel. It's very fair, unbiased commentary! I was wondering if you could film yourself doing a sparring session with one of your friends, who is roughly of equal skill and strength to yourself? It would be great to see you spar!!
Thank you for the video. Very good.
Great tang so doo representation at the end. That guy was strong af
This is actually the first martial arts system I ever took. I've done some Wing chun, some Bujinkan to my regret, I've trained with people who do wrestling and combative, and I currently do two systems of kung fu. And I think it's funny how I did this system so long ago that I forgot about its intricacies, and yet I default to it every time that I have a signature from when I once trained in it. I feel like it was a pretty decent system personally. It felt more rounded out than taekwondo and didn't feel over bloated like hapkido
Basically Shotokan with Korean kicking.
In regards to the dude in the video, you should have kept his hands up. That was a massively glaring weakness. Gave too much ground too. You have kicks, use them.
Sure you did
@@keatonluggy8959 what?
Don’t regret it, just glean the parts that are useful and graft it into the rest to make something unique and difficult to defend
It’s supposed to be a tkd and karate mixed style I think
I've seen it's a common problem for many tsd practitioners, they should work more guard and keep hands up. The hit-n-stop way of tournaments don't force people into keeping hands up, tsd is good for a more full-contactesque way.
Hello I love mma in general but I appreciate this Martial art context u putting out
My TKD/Karate school actually takes some of its kata/poomse from Tang Soo Do, as well as our sparring rules. There are some major things I wish we would train more such as leg kicks in sparring as well as takedowns and such during sparring. We do have mostly kids so most of our rules regarding that are for safety (according to our Shihan). We do teach the techniques, we just aren't allowed to use them. One other thing is that most Tang Soo Do is still point based so you spend more time learning how to control and pull back a technique as opposed to learning how to properly use and take the hits even in light sparring.
As a side note about Karate Combat: they changed the rules again and are going to allow knees next season because they're in Karate anyways and they want to showcase and highlight Karate itself in the ranges and rules it looks best in. That's why there's no ground and pound without having at least one knee up or on the belly, they have to be standing because that's what modern Karate prioritizes: standing fighting. There are actually people in KC that have done plenty of other types of rulesets such as MMA and Kickboxing as well, and many of the champions cross-train boxing and jujitsu or judo. Josh Quayhagen is a great example of someone who took what they learned in KC and is now expanding to MMA!
Quagaygen did plenty of MMA before KC
What’s the rules for the clinch?
@@neokimchi not really my area of expertise haha. All I knew was that is where he's been looking lately
@@sinfinite7516 I don't think you can clinch in the current rules. I think there's a "no holding and striking" rule
Raymond Daniels will make a debut in Karate Combat this 27 August! Cant wait!
Used to do Tang Soo Do. Loved how we'd spar in a 'randori' style - pair up and go at it until it was time to switch partners. We wouldn't stop if one of us were 'hit' although we did that style of sparring too. I'd regularly come home with some bruises from trying to block incoming strikes.
Yo man great video, I always love your breakdowns. Please keep them coming. That said I've done TSD almost 30 years now and you have some comments that have broken it down. That said I'll throw a quick 2 cents in and kinda stealing it from Ian Abernethy when it comes to any traditional martial arts. In TSD case it's a Korean version of a Japanese version of an Okinawa version of a Chinese martial arts. The MDKTSD founded by Kwang Kee has a lot more Chinese influence given he spent time in China. However original Korea martial arts had more throws and grappling. When it came to the states everything was all standup. A lot like how Okinawa shotokan changed ranges when they moved it to Japan. The TSD I learned for self defense has a lot of grappling style defense with joint locks which I do enjoy. As for fighting it's always down to the fighter and how they train.
I have much love for Korean Martial Arts. Karate has a tendency of being integrated into them do to the Japanese occupation of Korea in the early 20th century. The Korean "mother arts" are Subak & Taekkyeon which were developed centuries ago during the Josyeon Dynasty.
Grandmaster Hwang Kee Learned & mastered the arts of Subak & Taekkyeon years before the Japanese occupation. Due Korean martial arts & culture being banned from practice he fled Korea and went to China and learned Yang Kung-Fu. He also studied Shotokan for quite some.
Around 1945 he combined the arts he learned and developed what is now called Tang Soo Do. This is the first & only martial discipline I've earned a black belt in. I'm proud to have taken part in a system that has such a rich history! 👊🥋🇰🇷
Tang Soo Do is just the Korean translation of Karate-Do. Just like Yulsu is Korean for (traditional)jujitsu, Yudo for judo, kumdo for kendo & hapkido for aikido. Alex Gilllis has a great book on TKD history called A Killing Art. Spoiler! TKD comes from Shotokan Karate. All Korean arts follow the TKD path of history fabrication. It's the same way Brazilians try to distant BJJ from Judo with made up stories of jujitsu coming from India. BJJ grew out of Judo. Fact!!! Just like all Korean marital arts are just Koreanized versions of Japanese arts except for Korean wrestling and archery. Those two are fully Korean.
So basically if we connect all of them it will be...
Southern shaolin Kung fu: the father of karate
Karate: The father of Tang Soo Do
Tang Soo do: the father of taekwondo
Taekwondo: the spoiled child
Hapkido and Aikido are different arts lmao
Yes. All Kwan founders learned karate in Japan or in Korea from karate masters, except for GM Hwang Kee, as he learned in Manchuria, or so the legend says😅. And then came the tkd fusion of kwans and all the changes.
Chuck Norris practices Tang Soo Do.
Did. Past tense. He was only a "true" Tang Soo Do stylist for about 5 years. In the mid-1960s (before he met Bruce Lee) he was cross training in other arts (shotokan, shito-ryu, shudokan, judo, hapkido) to become more well rounded. In the late 80s he met the Gracies and would train in jiu-jitsu under the Machados. He continued to use the term Tang Soo Do until the early 80s before dropping it, but he had already been doing his own things for nearly 2 decades. One of the reasons why he broke away from the Moo Duk Kwan in 1973.
And the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles too. Serious.
I also want to add, my lineage of TSD we never put our hands the way that guy did. It was always in high boxing stance. The only reason we were being forced to put our hands down was because of the introduction of new forms and some of the older guys wanted a classical karate look. But early TSD from the 1950s through the '70s used a high boxing stance not the shot of constance and hand positioning. Not the karate hand positioning. You can see why we wanted to keep that
Hi Jerry,
To quickly answer your question on the wing chun front hand, the technique is called maan sau (asking hand). Theoretically, the hand needs to occupy the center line and moves forward toward the center mass of the opponent. If there is no resistance, the maan sau becomes a strike straight down the middle. If the hand encounters the opponent's arm, then it changes into a different shape based on the amount and direction of the force with the idea/purpose of clearing the center line by deflecting or trapping so you can deliver additional strikes down the center line toward the center mass of the opponent.
In real-life applications, the maan sau is a very brief transitory hand that once you establish contact, it changes very quickly into a punch or a trapping hand. In my experience, if you're going up against other styles in the context of a match or sparring, having the maan sau hand in the classic set up is actually a problem because it telegraphs to the opponent that you're doing wing chun and you're exposing your head and chin from hook/side attacks. On the other hand, the maan sau/wu sau stance can be used in a street fight context by simply getting to the optimum distance, raise the man sau/wu sau and immediately strike from the correct distance -- in real fight situations, you don't want to square up because you want to end the fight ASAP and GTFO.
Having said that, I agree totally with you in saying that Qi La La's Man Sau is actually a liability when he fights MMA style -- he's better off adjusting the Maan Sau hand to be closer to his body and bring up his hand slightly to cover his chin -- he can still reach out fairly quickly from that position to block or trap if the opportunity presents itself, but also close enough to guard his head from jabs or other strikes to the head from the opponent.
Interesting comment you made about Wing Chun chasing the centerline and sometimes it doesn't work so well..I have had several Silat teachers talk about this. Many other martial arts also attack the centerline but I was always taught once there you need to offbalance them immediately for the follow ups in order to make the technique work so if you are trapping an arm or striking you need to shift his weight or turn his body-boxing also is good at crossing an opponents body through footwork so the strikes are even more devastating.
Tang Soo Do came into being during the Japanese occupation of the Koreas, when traditional Korean martial arts were banned. Karate dojos sprang up all over Korea. In a bid to preserve what remained of their own traditions they incorporated elements of Taekkyon, and Subak into Shotokan Karate, creating Tang Soo Do. Interestingly, there are two subdivisions of this school. Moo Duk Kwan, and Subak-Do. Moo Duk Kwan was believed to be the more hard-hitting style compared to Subak-Do.
This is all from my limited understanding as a Goju-Ryu student.
Idk if there's a lick of taekyon
Looks like karate but people keep saying there's Kung fu as well?
Aa someone who's done shotokan for a year and a half, then tang soo do for a little under a year, I can say you pretty much nailed it. Coming from shotokan, I immediately noticed differences and could identify where taekyon and subak were incorporated. Aside from that, they're pretty much the same with differing philosophies. I then trained in freestyle kickboxing and stopped training in traditional martial arts. Still do shotokan style katas from time to time though.
@@koraegi I've trained in tang soo do, and thought it had Kung fu from some research that I did, but didn't see any elements of Kung fu at all. However I could identify taekyon and subak kicks that aren't found in karate.
@@novar0gue I have done Tang Soo Do much of my life, and I also did kung fu for a few years after leaving the military. IF there is anything in tang soo do that is similar to kung fu, it is some of the stances BUT that is dependent on the association/federation or even varies between school. When I did TSD as a kid, we didn't do much of a cat stance, but my current association, thats our primary fighting stance. I mostly see similarities to shotokan, especially in forms.
You have the right visión you searched so much, preserve this. Tangsudo is this and more.
Did tang Soo do for about 5 years. Hated the stiff punches.. Learned a little boxing and mixed it in and it's 100% more affective.
I used to do tang soo do and the second match when the guy was only doing side kicks is pretty accurate for first time sparing. I can remember learning to switch it up because so manny people were just being predictable
That first fighter is a Shen Lung Tang Shou Tao practitioner who trains with the guy Qi La La is sparring with. The Shen Lung Tang Shou Tao Association of Taiwan actually has nothing to do with Japanese or Korean karate, but the name is intended more literally. It's mostly based in xingyi, bagua, taiji, and Shaolin; but the founder did travel to Japan and based the organization and marketing of his system off of the way they do it in Japan. He also had his students wearing karate-gis while they were learning Chinese taolu.
The Tang Shou Tao of Taiwan isn't really meant to be a style, but just an organization. I used to train with one of their instructors in the US. I don't know if they still have schools around the world, but the rule used to be that an associated school would have to teach the first five forms and then handle the rest of its curriculum however. So you could essentially have any style of school involved, as long as they taught the Five Fists forms, which were a set of beginner forms created out of Shaolin and linear bagua as a prerequisite to learning proper xingyi.
In Tang Shou Tao there was a general belief that a practitioner should strart with something very active like Shaolin to build athleticism and learn lots of techniques, then graduate to xingyi to develop power generation and aggression, then move on to bagua to learn strategy, and finish with taiji to foster energy conservation and effortlessness.
Qi La La also practices xin yi liu he quan, which is considered a style of xing yi quan (or ancestor to it), so when Qi La La was sparring that guy, it was kind of like xingi vs. xingyi.
Tang Soo Do is essentially Shotokan Karate. In English, it means "The Tang Hand". "Tang" referring to the Japanese Tang Dynasty which occupied Korea, exposing the native Koreans to the art. They developed their own philosophy and approach to fighting, springboarding off of what they took from the Japanese, and developed Taekwondo. American soldiers stationed in South Korea brought both arts back to the states. A lot of it was lost in translation and watered down over time, unfortunately. Though many gifted fighters have developed their skill in these arts such that they can utilize them in the ring, the state of education in these arts has proven to be inadequate.
What? Where'd you learn your history? "Tang" is in reference to the Tang Dynasty of China, not the Japanese occupation of Korea. The original Okinawan pronunciation for karate was "Tode" (To = Tang, De/Te = hand). "Tang Soo" is the Korean pronunciation of "Tode".
The man who is now rightfully credited as the founder of Tang Soo Do and the first person to coin the term was Won Kuk Lee. During the occupation, Lee had studied under Gichin Funakoshi and his son, "Gigo" while attending university in Tokyo. After returning to Korea he began using Tang Soo Do as the name of his art. Others who had also studied in shotokan in Japan or from those who had also adopted the name until the unification of the kwans in the mid-1950s.
Chinese Tang Dynasty
Tang soo do. My first style
I am a black belt in Tang Soo Do and my understanding is its the military martial art in South Korea. It's Tae Kwon Do's sister art they are almost identical in point sparring at tornaments from some schools of Tang Soo Do, other schools look like Shotokan. I think in schools that spar often TSD could be comparable to kick boxing with spin kicks. In schools that don't spar its a sad display. Overall I'd say that if I only trained TSD I would be a much less effective fighter.
What would u recommend? Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling, sambo and Brazilian jiu jitsu are the best probably. Muay Thai is the best striking art. Knees and elbows are better than kicks and punches. Boxing is second best striking probably
@@flowrepins6663 Muay Thai is one of the best to train. As it has good striking and grappling in the clinch. Judo is really nice because the goal of it is too stay on your feet but it has ground work as well. The king is still MMA because a well rounded fighter is a good fighter. Someone once told me that there are Martial arts and martial sciences. MMA is a martial science because its focus on combat. Various forms of karate and jiujitsu have a spiritual aspect and are a little less combat focused, hence Martial art.
1. Tang Soo Do is taekwondo's parent art. The majority of the kwans that were part of the unification that gave birth to taekwondo were Tang Soo Do. The other was Kong Soo Do. Even Choi Hong-hi ("father" of tawkwondo) was a Tang Soo Do stylist.
2. During the 1950s, the Moo Duk Kwan style of Tang Soo Do became the most widely practiced art in South Korea gaining a lot of political influence. This resulted in them getting a lot of military and law enforcement contracts, which is why a lot of servicemen of the 1950s and 60s (Chuck Norris, Pat Johnson, Dale Drouillard, etc.) were Tang Soo Do-Moo Duk Kwan stylists. Unfortunately, Hwang Kee (Moo Duk Kwan founder) fell out of favor with the government, which resulted in him losing those contracts.
From my understanding, at least as far as the South Korean special forces are concerned they practiced something called "Teukgong Moosool". Can't find much on its history, but from what I've seen, definitely has a lot of hapkido in it, along with some ground fighting (either from old school judo or jiu-jitsu). Wouldn't doubt it if it also has some taekwondo in there.
5:10 that was slick af. Qi la la looked like he was in a straight up kung-fu movie 🤣🤣
1st comment! Love the content
TSD is really the Korean adaptation of karate. I believe specifically shotokan. There are a lot of forms taken from that style (I think) that are identical or only subtly different.
Tang Soo Do's forms are mainly taken from its parent art Shotokan. Courtesy of its founder, Won Kuk Lee who had studied Shotokan while studying abroad in Japan. However, there are some forms that were added from Shito-ryu such as Rohai which is based off of "Matsumura Rohai" instead of Shotokan''s version Mekyo. There were also some Chinese based forms that were also added via the Moo Duk Kwan. Going back to the Japanese forms, Lee and later on Hwang Kee (Moo Duk Kwan) made modifications to those forms.
the reason qi la la ate some shots is because he is the much smaller and shorter and thinner fighter who is the aggressor. taking those shots is normal as long as he is still maintaining pressure as the much smaller fighter, as Manny Pacquiao also eats shots when he chases outclassed opponents. Ofc Pacquiao would destroy qi la la in less than 30 seconds, but im just using an example to illustrate that the tang soo do guy is much less skilled than qi la la and that it wouldn't matter if qi la la used boxing or wing chun, he would eat shots being that offensive while being that much smaller and lighter. For smaller fighters who are on the offensive, the sign that they are doing bad is when they suddenly stop being offensive as that means they're outclassed or hurt. looking at how comfortable qi la la was moving forward, it meant that if qi la la was as big as that black man before him, he would barely get hit either.
We gotta talk about the Qi La La / TSD sparring:
1. TSD (Tangshoudao) guy may have some muay thai or boxing training as well. His hands were much better than typical for Tang Soo Do. Also, huge size/weight advantage. It made a difference in mobility and range control.
2. Trapping range is a real thing. Way more effective than most people realize. If you understand it well, it's great for transitioning to a takedown, in or out of a clinch, and to penetrate the defense of an otherwise competent or superior boxer. Tony Ferguson is the most effective trapper in MMA / UFC that I have seen so far. Partly because he has properly integrated it and uses it when it's justified and uses other techniques when they are needed. He's a tremendously well rounded fighter. Just go back over his fights. Well worth a second look.
3. The strikes Qi La La was landing were delivered at like 20-30% power. Wing Chun strikes, the vertical fist straight punch, (at their strongest) max out at about 70% or 2/3 the power of a right cross (Fight Science). But, that 60%-70% can be delivered more rapidly and repeatedly. Typically if you get a good chain combo going you'll land 4-6 times before the disengage. Where you land the blow becomes more important (because less power) as well. The point is that 20-30% of 50-70% is not that hard. But, 2/3 of a right cross delivered 4-6 times in 1-1.5 seconds, will fuck somebody up.
4. Ergo, it takes measurably more skill to be basically effective in Wing Chun than in Muay Thai or Western boxing. Further, if you don't train against fully resistant fighters, you'll never land that rocking combo.
As far as Qi La La himself goes:
1. He's come a long way and continues to improve as a rounded fighter.
2. He still doesn't take proper advantage of his kicking range and his kicking technique still needs work.
3. Likewise he's lost in the clinch / grappling range.
However, his hand technique has seriously improved and is much more useful than when he started MMA. This is the result of not giving up on his Wing Chun but continuing to pressure test it and refine his technique for real world application.
Wing Chun is not a complete martial art. Neither is Tang Soo Do. The closest thing to a complete martial art for real is Muay Thai. But really, it's just the root. It gives basic striking, kicking, footwork, takedowns, and even grappling (clinch work). But only the basics. Boxing has better punching techniques and footwork, TKD (which technically is the synthesis of Tang Soo Do and 8 other Korean disciplines or "kwans") has the best kicks, Judo, Jujitsu, and Greco-Roman are all better for grappling, and Wing Chun and Aikido offer powerful, if only narrowly applicable, trapping and locking techniques.
Tai Chi is useless for real fighting as are most of the kung fus and internal martial arts.
And, most of the belt focused dojos are also poor preparation for a real fight though this tends to be less about techniques and more about training methods.
The point is that most of these traditional styles fail not because of inherent technique flaws (although situationally they do have some) but because the practitioner simply has not trained as rigorously and and comprehensively in BASIC techniques against a resisting opponent as the average MMA fighter.
Performance is 100% driven by training intensity.
Aye it's is tang soo do!
I train in Oldschool Moodukkwan TKD which is a lot like Tang soo do and nothing like modern TKD.
But we train probably 30% of the time on boxing skills also. Which I think helps out so much for real world applications.
Dang caught the kick with hands and caught the punch with chin
This is a good video because it really showcases the hurdles various traditional martial arts have when it’s time to apply.
With the second video, even though people were saying the tang soo do guy needed to be more aggressive, he didn’t have a proper tool kit for being more aggressive. He spent 90% of the time in a sideways stance which took away most offensive weapons except the side kick, backfist, and spinning back kick. Hard to make fluent combinations out of those, while his partner was in a normal slightly bladed striking stance which allows him to throw almost anything at almost any moment and string things together smoothly.
The karate guy in the last video had the same stance issue as the second tang soo do guy. Being turned so sideways like that also makes it hard to keep the front hand up.
The wing chun fighter (not going to even try spelling his name) had the opposite stance problem in his first two rounds. His stance was so square that he had no reach for the straight punches he was throwing. He had no body rotation in his punches at all so even when he landed shots they looked soft. He did change that in the third round, he started rotating and hitting with his whole body at that point.
All of these guys could do much better if their arts didn’t prioritize stances that are so limiting. Or maybe to learn ways of using footwork to open things up a little more. But I have to have respect for all of these martial artists for testing themselves like this.
Hi I am a Tang Soo Do teacher. I occasionally have the honor to train directly with Choong Jae Nim CS Kim. I may be able to answer some questions
What do you know of the intercontinental Tang Soo Do organization? Have you met Master Dominick Giacobbe or Master Alastor Ricks and if you have what do you know of them?
@@im_mr_garbage2498 oh I haven’t met them before. I wish I did!
Real good wing chun! 👍🏼💪🏼
I always do those low kicks at first if I’m ever in a fight to test the defenses of whoever is up against me. Only had to do it twice.
I trained tang soo do till 2nd degree black belt. The entire technique is majority defense related. Look up 1 step techniques and that's what you would mainly do in let's say a street fight. It starts with the defense against your opponents first attack followed by aggressive counter to completely take them out. Youre shoulders are squared up.. When sparring it's mostly defense making yourself as small a target as possible. Opposite of 1 step technique
So about Karate Combat this was their first live show open to the general public, they sold tickets. Second elbows and low kicks to the thigh are not allowed but Knees will be allowed starting at their next event on August 27th.
Thanks for the details!
Nice
I am a black belt in tangsoodo and from my understanding it was created in Korea around ww2 era combining the invading Japanese karate with traditional taekwondo and Chinese martial arts. Original practitioners traveled all throughout china/Korea/Japan learning from everywhere. After ww2 in the latter end of the 20th century tangsoodo would be taught worldwide by a combination of official founding members and other unofficial practitioners but in small numbers due to its rough tradition and popularity of other softer martial arts (taekwondo mostly) so yea that’s where we currently stand. It’s difficult for me to find many tangsoodo schools in my area and the group I trained under (Pilsung Association) is the only network of schools I know of, it’s actually so niche most the schools just label themselves as karate or taekwondo. I only actually found out it wasn’t taekwondo when I realized how different the style was and looked into it further (would have known earlier if I payed attention to my master cuz I think he explained it once or twice but I wasn’t really paying attention lmao)
Yes and definitely no! First things first...there is no such thing as "traditional" taekwondo. Taekwondo comes from Tang Soo Do (and Kong Soo Do), it was founded in 1957 or so. It's not even 70 years old. Tang Soo Do was founded in 1944 by Won Kuk Lee. During the Japanese occupation while studying abroad in Japan Lee studied shotokan under Gichin Funakoshi and his son "Gigo". After finishing university Lee traveled to Okinawa and China to train in other arts. Lee would eventually return to Korea and after two unsuccessful attempts was giving permission by Japanese officials (in Korea) to teach karate. Instead of calling it shotokan he called it Tang Soo Do which means "Chinese hand way", which was the original meaning of karate before it was changed to "empty hand".
Later on other Koreans or the students of Koreans who had also studied shotokan in Japan also began using the term. (Some had studied shudokan which became known as Kong Soo Do.) One of those Koreans who would also use the term (although not initially, he called his art Hwa Soo Do) was Hwang Kee founder of the Moo Duk Kwan.
I actually am a black belt in chun kuk do which is Chuck Norris’s art that has a lot of roots in Tang Soo Do. I think it’s more of a difference in training and what they train for. We mostly train for more points based matches and when we free spar it’s very light and safety is a major concern. Just like anything else, Karate practitioners need to train for more MMA style matches before competing in them. If you have a BJJ practitioner who hasn’t trained for more MMA style matches you’ll probably see about the same thing. It’s all in what the fighter trains for.
Muy Tai 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
In WC and JKD you often use a jab to bait follow up techniques depending how your opponent receives your jab. Sometimes you do that with a front kick and land forward into trapping range QLL did that in 2nd round
hadooken!
Tangsoo-do is written 唐手道, the same as Karate-do when it used the kanji for china before switching to the character for empty.
So it means basically Karate, and I think it's korean karate or some derivative of it.
It also retains the "chinese hand" meaning of the old karate name, which may note some chinese wushu influence.
Tang soo do thru its history was a true way of life. instilling respect for all, humbleness, self control. I was a practitioner and studied the art of Tang soo do in the 80"s. I had the privilege to train under C.I KIM who was one of the founders students. The true beauty of the art and lifestyle is probably not to attractive to todays modern styles that seem to be far more into MMA style. It truly was and is martial art that has a history that can be traced back to its origin. Technique in its kicks when done correctly were very effective for self defense however forms and more of a point style is probably a decent observation of this art. I believe if practiced thru out life it has many health benefits. To each their own depending on what you want from your training.
Yes all true.
Master Clark
Two martial art celebrities have Tang Soo Do background: Chuck Norris and Chloe Bruce
None of the vids here were what I was taught. Yan De Vry taught us to change stance from left and right, and to stand right, but punch and kick left, and visa-versa, and to grapple and tangle. Lift and throw, and chuck a punch in as they fall.
Punch and kick, distract with finger grabs to the face. then move in low for the legs but punch high, with a high guard and grapple, throw elbows in, headbutt if needed, and bite if needed, twist any limb with the intention to break bones.
Differences in tsd to Japanese karatedo is tsd kicks are 60/40 while J Karate is more 40/60
As well as arm directions from chamber like chops are from horizontal in JK but diagonal in tsd. Other than that its basically shotokahn karate with korean flare.
TSD is something that works great against multiple unskilled opponents. Someone that would go down with about 8-9 hundred lbs of force to the temple. The techniques are fast and have long range. This allows threats to be eliminated quickly at a distance while moving allowing time to respond to the other threats. Try one TSD guy with 3 years training vs. 3 guys with 1 month of a normal combat sport.
We have already seen what happens when your average TSD with 3 years of training goes head up with 1 guy with a month of normal combat sport training.....and it always ends with the TSD practitioner getting either chocked or knocked out.
@@thecollector6746 cap
@@theironfox2756 ...except for the fact that we have over 30 years of demonstrable evidence that TSD practitioners at all levels routinely get their sh23t ruined by combat sport practitioners. But by all means neck-beard who doesn't train and never put himself to the test...tell me more about how much you don't know about fighting.
I think TSD is a decent system for self defense and traditional training but because of how they train class sparring, it is not near enough preparation for ring or competitive fighting. You have to do more on that. Both Lyoto Machida and Stephen Thompson are from karate systems but they trained specifically to be fighters.
If you have any videos on Gongkwon Yusul, Kyeok Sul Do or Teukong Moosul I’d like to do a commentary or at least see the video
This TangSooDo guy is jumping a lot. Not the usual behaviour of a TangSooDo exponent
Yooo I do tangsoodo! But I wanna get into Mauy Tai, Jiujitsu, and wrestling, judo is cool too. I haven’t started training yet just cause 2 schools at the same time is expensive and I am close enough to my black belt to the point I might as well just test for it. But as much as I love Kung fu and karate styles I think it’s best for me to learn boxing and wrestling and use Kung fu and karate styles as supplementary.
I train Muay Thai and would love to spar other styles. Also agree you should go lighter if more experienced. Even letting them try some moves on you
Interesting stuff the tang soo do guys. I don't really know much about it but it's usually called "corean karate" so there's that. In my eyes they do look very similar to karate.
Regarding trapping, imho there's no such thing as trapping range. Like, there is a proper range where you can apply trapping but it's never a place where you can stay for too long. Trapping is a tool you can use to help you set up offense or defense, but you cannot linger on it or you'll expose yourself to a counter attack.
You have to integrate tsd with a grappling like style. Our curriculum is tsd, aikido and jujitsu.
It's been a while since I watched Karate Combat stuff but I think the rules were that if it goes to ground, you can grapple but still only get any points through strikes against the opponent, so you only grapple for the purpose of being better able to strike. And also I think you only got like 5 seconds before they stand it back up so you gotta be quick about it. And honestly if you don't want to completely disallow grappling/ground stuff but still want to keep it striking focused, I think that is a good way to go about it, but then last I knew there were also weird rules about disallowed strikes, like I think hooks weren't allowed?
I remember Bas Rutten on the Joe Rogan podcast that short-range hooks were banned, but longer-range hooks were allowed. I don't know the reasoning behind that rule but that's what it is
@@JJackDaniel oh yeah it only being short hooks banned sounds familiar now that you mention it. A very weird rule lol.
Karate Combat is a good sport. They have Bas Rutten for color commentary. They also have had some segments with GSP. They seem to be spending some real money and effort, it is well organized, produced, etc.
Tang soo do originated via shotokan karate after the founder, Gishin Funakoshi, taught a Korean man. Karate at the time was not called such at the time, it was called “Ta-do” which refers to the Tang Dynasty of China, hence the name of TSD: “Way of the Tang hand”
Same exact origin as Tae Kwon do except tkd came after, was given a mythical Korean origin, and altered more techniques, essentially dumbing it down
Won Kuk Lee was the Korean man's name. He studied shotokan while attending university in Japan in the 1930s. He named his school the Chung Do Kwan meaning "blue wave hall" in honor of Funakoshi since shotokan translates to "pine waves hall".
traditional martial arts guys always seem to lead with their dominant side as it's easier to pull of fancier kicks. It just feels natural. but at the same time, they don't really learn how to stick them with any kind of bad intentions. i learned orthodox and I can just stick my leg out and feel the power now, I never felt so confident in my TKD days.
He is respectfully not killing him🤣
Well, Tang Soo Do means - as far as I am aware - 'The Chinese Hand'. Originally, The Chinese Hand was brought over to Okinawa, and from there when it went to Japan, it was called Karate, which means 'Empty Hand'. Due to Japanese nationalism, they dropped the 'Chinese' from 'The Chinese Hand'. As a result, the Koreans reverted to The Chinese Hand (Tang Soo Do - the Chinese Way) post Japanese occupation. Then 'Tae Kwon Do' was coined out of Korean nationalism. I would say that Tang Soo Do is Tae Kwon Do or a variation of. It took awhile for Tae Kwon Do to develop from General Choi Hong Hi and several Kwans (gyms / dojangs) that created World Taekwondo to Hong Hi's International Taekwondo Federation. It's fascinating stuff!
Agree with his comments fully. My friend when he was a kid saw an amateur boxer in his karate class , the Instructor/Sensei challenged him , the boxer to spar , and the boxer K.O.ed him. Also he learned all the breaking things trickery , which is just a show for gullible people that don't understand what they do to make it work. Needless to say , he quit Karate and did Golden Gloves.
Traditional martial arts too watered down in my opinion Muay Thai is the way to go for striking. I started out doing TKD but i started doing MT and I realized that TKD taught me bad habits like not blocking my face enough and even though they taught me how to escape a leg catch they didn't teach how to avoid being caught because you weren't allowed to catch kicks in sparring or punch the face. I will say some of the kicks from TKD are good and it really teaches how to blitz fight and land body shots. MT is the best foundation for kickboxing and real world scenarios. Once you train MT for 1-3 years you can borrow techniques from caporierra, TKD, Boxing etc. to supplement it if you want.
Well Chuck Norris's art was Tang Soo Do. And he won a lot of Kickboxing fights. Some championships too. So you could have covered videos of that as well.
Tang Soo Do is Shotokan Karate but Korean.
The second dude actually had footwork but was smaller.
Ask MVP Michael Venom Page if these styles can work
Im not sure, but I've seem somewhere, a video named "pureza (or puresa?) brothers tangsoodo Phillipines (or Cingapore?) in MMA". It was an old, 80s maybe, footage of some tang soo do guys beating the fvck out of other martial arts, Kyokushin included. Super sweet, but I've never been able to find that footage again.
Edit: nevermind, people already mentioned it. The name of the guy is actually Grandeza.
I searched both words and couldn't find it. if you find the name of the brothers, please let me know. I'll search again.
Chuck Norris’s karate base is Tang So Do. To quote “American Tang Soo Do is a hybrid martial art formed in 1966 by Chuck Norris who combined the Korean martial art of Tang Soo Do (Moo Duk Kwan) with Japanese styles of Judo, Shito-ryu Karate and Shotokan Karate”
He also dabbled in hapkido in the early 70s. He sold one of his schools hapkido and taekwondo master Jun Chong (whose North Hollywood school was the original Cobrai Kai dojo and his students Thomas Ian Griffith aka _"Terry Silver"_ and Simon Rhee are part of the Karate Kid/Cobra Kai franchise) and trained with him and his teacher briefly.
Tang Soo Doo is basically Korean-style Karate, with an emphasis on, you guess it, kicks. Very little in the way of punches, when compared to American Kickboxing, Savate or Muay Thai.
Multiple martial arts styles are required in a street fight. For me wing chun is best for trapping range. Muay thai and boxing are great in boxing range. A lot of styles like teakwondo are great in kicking range and bjj and wrestling are for the ground. Physical conditioning is also half the battle.
Gabriel Varga is also on CZcams and recently had his first fight with Karate Combat (the same event as Galvan vs. Buxton actually). Could see if he would do a collab?
Got in touch with him 😎😎
Hello! Tang Soo Do has already been tested against other arts since the early 2000's. Check out Steve Grandeza for your reference
I am familiar with him, but let's be honest in the Philippines they don't do the same version. In fact they're always a point of contention with the MDK Federation because they won't get in line. But that Federation needs the numbers in that country so they let him do what he wants. It's not the current syllabus, and I commend him because he's doing actual sparring and combat which is something they don't do in the organization he belongs to
Tang soo do is basically what is used by Cobra Kai in the Karate Kid
1st guy set him up and knocked him down. Nice
Tang soo do it's more about response and counter than offensive attacks. There are offensive moves and techniques however the art is more geared toward defend and respond with situation ending counter-attack. When sparring a typical response will be a block to a grab and throw with strike at the end or block with trip and strike. Most of these using the pressure or leverage points such as just below the back of the knee to start the attackers momentum down while weaning him back opening up chest for a Palm strike to the chest to further drop the opponent. I like to add a wrist grab and turn on the way down to hold them to the ground in case they decide they want to try to get back up. Now that would be sparring or competition on the street I'm going for the throat eyes or liver instead of the Palm push all of that being said, no matter what discipline in which someone is trained, there will ALWAYS be someone better than you. In the real world, the best defense when it is possible, is to just not be there. If you can retreat or run away to avoid a physical altercation, do it.
In second fight say he's only red belt that had some sparring experience but not much
Rob Buxton did quite well in the Karate Combat clip. Classic Tang Soo Do. Compare to old Chuck Norris footage. Chuck's black belt is in Tang Soo Do. You'll see very similar techniques. Did a good job keeping his hands up. He had ring control because he has well internalized the Korean doctrine on range management. Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do both teach excellent range management.
In South Korea, the most popular martial art after Tae Kwon Do is Judo. So, a well trained Korean is likely to kick the shit out of you and if you get past his feet he''ll switch to Judo. Really good Western boxing is their nemesis provided you have good takedown defense and kick defense.
Norris got his ass handed to him for the first several years of his tournament career to Japanese style fighters. It was after he began training with shotokan and shito-ryu stylists that he began winning. If you look up the top Tang Soo Do tournament fighters from the late 1960s, 70s and even early 80s they all came from the Norris system (Johnson, Wall, Natividad, Garcia, Jackson, Burbidge, Alegria, Pohnel, Wright, etc). Not saying Korean Tang Soo Do doesn't work, but Norris and his students success came from him cross training.
His lead hand is supposed to be holding a blade. Wing Chun doesn't address hand position in modern sparring.
Well... It seems like it's good for health
It’s clearly a different kind of sparring. TSD being a point sparring style vs MT or Kick Boxing which is typically full contact the TSD guy is out classed in that all of his pretty kicks don’t do him any good if he can’t take a real hit. That’s why I left TSD after 16 years there in.
That second pair only seemed to be going about 30% anyway.
It is not Tang Soo Do.
It is " Dragon Tang Shou Tao", Basically it is XingYi taught in a karate system.
You should watch a channel called Karate Bushido, and watch their wing chun video. The guy using wing chun is really good at it
That video is on the list to cover!
Damn, Tang Su Do guy is really big
I feel with a lot of karate guys and traditionalist the range is off when you pull your hands to the hips that's just simulating pulling in the clinch that would be in the grappling clinch range the problem is they put their hands down at the wrong range
The karate combat fight was Korean karate vs. American karate.
Hmm this is interesting. and 2nd 😁
0:34 I think this is modernized tsd. I do tsd traditional and we do NOT drop our hands.
how about the quads on the TSD guy that Qi LaLa is fighting though?
Everyone critiques hands down as if Anderson Silva, Raymond Daniels, Machida etc haven’t proven the benefits in movement and the ability to hide angles it provides. I’m not saying it’s better than keeping your guard up, just saying it has a place