Quite why these systems fall outside of the heat pump grants in UK is beyond me.... They clearly are a great option especially in older properties where changing pipes, radiator etc isn't an option.... Great video, very informative . It will be interesting to see your usage in summer when in air conditioning mode.....& how much you enjoy that mode.
We have the same system... in Summer last year it was 40 degrees outside... 45 degrees in conservatory... and 20 degrees in the house. We've installed 6mm laminate glass in the slider doors and windows so the temperature difference doesn't shatter the glass. Lovely 😂😊
Because the government are great at wasting money on wet air source system incentives if air to air were subsidised to some extent the uptake would be faster also overall electric consumption would be lower, I also question why v.a.t. is charged on insulation products bought as a D.I.Y. project less incentive for people to upgrade there insulation . I have brought these points up with my M.P and minister in charge the reply received proves that we will not meet the target they have set.
I think it's mainly because there's no real guarantee that the boiler is being ripped out etc, and some might use it just to get AC for summer, and their carbon emissions stay the same.
Just installed air 2 air last month and although i have a box on the wall we love the fact its warm and no compromise needed to heat the house. 400w our lounge is runing at with a temp 26c door left open and its filling the house with warmth. 😊
Is this the same as : electriQ Easy-Fit 12000 BTU A++ WiFi Smart Wall-Mounted Split Air Conditioner with Heat Pump and 4.5-Meter Pipe Kit reviews verified Is it economical ?
Fantastic information as always👍I have wanted to go down the air-2-air heat pump route for quite a long time, but it almost seems to be frowned upon up here in the north east of Scotland, which is strange given that these systems are very common up in Orkney/Shetland/Scandinavia etc. Most installers want to sell you an air-2-water system at an exorbitant price and won't install air-2-air in domestic properties. Much like yourself, the payback period is less of a concern for me as I want to go green but also have the benefit of being able to remove the water radiators etc. I have a home based business and will be installing solar/batteries to offset my power usage and also provide power during power cuts which seems to be happening more and more these days.
In your payback calculation, you need to consider the possibility that your oil tank could have a negative value some time in the future. In Norway as of 2020, it is unlawful to have an oil tank (and therefore oil fired heating) in domestic properties. The cost of removal also requires the tank to be cleaned prior to removal and the ground to be tested for contamination. If there is contamination, then you’re liable for costs to decontaminate the ground. I’m sure you can imagine that gets expensive. But the question to ask is whether similar requirements become mandated in our country. I’m guessing not for at least 10 years, but when they do, there’ll be a desperate scramble to offload oil tanks before such testing / cleaning requirements become law.
I just moved to Cornwall from the USA. I had a heat pump ducted system in different homes for over 35 years . About 5 years ago my unit needed replacing and I decided to install a mini split air to air system . My electric bill was over 30% less than the conventional ducted forced air system. They are quiet and if sized properly will heat/cool a room in a couple of munites. This has a lot to do with the compressor setup in the mini splits. They are much more efficient and far less prone to failure due to the huge reduction in power needed to start each cycle. When any one tells you that heat pumps don’t work, they either have a financial motive or they are just wilfully ignorant.
Every is talking about payback time, blablah and not talking about elephant in the room... Literally the "elephant" in the room, the freaking radiators. Getting rid of those eyesores is what the upfront installation cost for me. Great video.
This is a bit late, but I wanted to thank you - first for putting me on to the AtoA system, and then for Graham Durrant's details. I live in Shropshire and have wanted a system like this for some time, I contacted Graham initially just for advice but he was so prompt in replying and included a quote for installing which was way below the only one that I managed to get from 4 different firms up here that I went with him (the quote included travel and accomodation!) all the way from Great Yarmouth. He came when he said he would and did exactly what I wanted in 2 days and hoovered and took all the rubbish away with him. He was a bit of a revelation compared to the folks up here! Brilliant!
That's really special, thank you for sharing . So glad to have helped but Graham deserves the credit mostly . He's back to service mine next month , such an easy process
Wow, thanks for posting that, Kate. I'm in Norwich and just starting to look at A2A for my house in Norwich. Like DavidD, I'm thinking to leave the newish gas combi in place for hot water and bathrooms pro tem. Will be contacting Graham smartish...
Great stuff !. When I installed solar pv and thermal , air to water heat pump and log burner over 10 years ago ..my friends thought I was a nutter . Now that I get paid to charge my kona when the sun shines they have a very different view 😂
I always look forward to a new video breaking things down and showing the actual figures. Great to hear you’re loving the air-to-air system over a wet system - we’re replacing storage heaters so putting a wet system in was looking costly, to put it mildly. Your info (along with other sources, of course) helped us make our decision about getting an air-to-air system. Due to be fitted in June, all being well. Keep up the great work, your info and content is very useful and entertaining.
I've had my AC on the past few days, even though the outside temperature has been around 22⁰C, for 2 reasons - 1) I hate working/sleeping in 22+C indoors, so comfort. 2) It also is an air purifier, and pollen has been high. Also don't forget these units are even more efficient at AC than heating, so having the AC on should be cheaper to run than the heating especially if the Sun is providing the electricity for it 😀
Very impressed with out Toshiba Haori split system we have just had fitted in the Lounge, super fast warm up time so you can turn it off when the room is not being used, very economical to run and don't even notice the wall unit - now seeing where else in the house we can fit more units
I have decided we need to get an air-2-air system. Struggling to get my wife to agree though. We also got a new boiler fitted in 2019 before I new about green alternatives. Will probably just get more solar installed to help cover the cost of gas and then a heat pump system in a few years when we retire.
Look at air to air speciations 2000 watt or 2 kw output heat or cold cost only about 400 to 500 watt input so you can get 4 or 5 small units ie 8000 watts to 10000 watts costing very little to run I put in 5 small units s if 1 breaks down you have 4 working still working check the specifications the small units can use up to 50% less input power that a single 8 to 10 kw unit. I also find leaving the units on 24 / 7 the inverter air conditioning bit like a car on a freeway using cruise control when the house get warm the inverters input power drops down to just what is needed.
Thanks for this Nigel, great to hear your thoughts and reasoning. It's certainly an household by household use case in terms of what's best the fabric, occupants and lifestyle. No one solution. I'm please to hear you are happy with your choice as that's all that counts at the end of the day.
Absolutely. I'm glad I took my time and thought and learnt about the way the house retained heat and when it didnt. Trying different things gave us confidence in what we liked and what we didn't. Moving heaters, trying different wattages, as well as experimenting with decreasing temps and increasing temps. Lots of scary stories out there of people unhappy after spending 10-20k really focused my mind on testing my thoughts and theories
I've got a similar setup, just 2 3KW units downstairs which do heat downstairs nicely. We still have a recent gas combi boiler for hot water and a lower temp for background heat.
My goodness Nigel best video to date IMHO 🥰 Now you have me seriously thinking as I have a wet heat-pump system booked in…. Just keep thinking A2A might be better bet and a Mixergy or Sunamp for hot water. I’ve got 27 kWh batteries and 6kW of solar.. 👍🏻
Food for thought . Responsive nature if the heat plus independence of each unit is a big win for me over a wet system . Plus there's free cooking in summer 🌞
Thank you! ...encouraged by your results and really useful and honest review, we turned off the gas in June and got a couple of 3.5kW mini splits (£3.5k all in). I avoided multi-split to give us some redundancy with two separate inverters. We are very happy with the system but as said in the comments; individuals' circumstances will make this work or not. For instance our kids have all left home so we are happy to keep all the doors open to circulate the heat. We also have MVHR which helps that. You get VERY cheap electricity because you have solar+batteries+EV. I managed to get onto Octopus Cosy because we have heat pumps now, but anyone with a poorly insulated house, electricity at 30p/kWh and a family of five showering twice a day might have to have a think. BTW we installed a wall mounted unit upstairs and a floor mounted unit downstairs - works great.
Another really good video, very informative. My own opinion is you need solar and some battery storage before going fully electric for heating. I totally agree with you on better for the planet and reducing costs, but I feel unless you invest in solar and battery first, electric is an expensive way to heat your home. I have family who have air source and ground source heating and their total electric bill for everything is still comparable to mine, and I have a gas boiler. I'm just waiting for my boiler to break and then go down the heat source route. Anyway great video, keep them coming. All the best.
Many thanks. The higher COP values of a heat pump make it a no brainer in my view. Initial outlay can be high though which puts some off but link it with other ejectric initiatives and it makes sense as a strategy . The key isn't solar in winter as you're lucky to cover your other house loads in winter . A battery can help but they're expensive if you can't utilise it more than just a few months owe year . The key really is being on a cheaper electric tariff 20p 30p 10p ? It makes a huge difference. I'm paying 9p on average
Over the same October-April period we used 5500kW of energy for hot water and heating in our ASHP. From October to mid December (when I found and got the issue fixed) one of our heating pumps had jammed so the system was working too hard to move the water around, but even say 5000kW we’re an order of magnitude above your figures Nigel. But we have a large house and the usage tracks similar to our oil boiler system so its not excessively more expensive or cheaper, and as you say solar means some of it is free heating. Our oil tank failed and I couldn’t site a new tank where the old one was, so went electric, took advantage of the previous RHI grant which covers most of the installation cost. All in all I’m happy too
Yes I've got two 9kW ASHP's. The heat loss calculation identified that a 15kW system was needed but there wasn't any MCS approved 15kW systems. So it's oversized for the demand
Nice overview. Going full electric pays off when you consider many variables, individual situations and preferences. So it is not easy doing so for the masses. It must be done since we need to say goodbye to fossil fuels as much as possible and lo log burning as well since it pollutes the air this way harming the health of your neighbours.
I had a quote for a heat pump. It was twice the price of a gas system and it would take up half my patio. I'm terraced so nowhere discreet to put one. Keeping my forty year old boiler for now. House pretty much running off solar now so no heating until October. Thanks for the update.
We’ve had the haori system installed by ignite heating and cooling, we are off the gas grid and had ancient storage heaters and electric resistive radiators as we are all electric. Huge improvement, far less wasteful and I’m sure it will save us money as heating was massively expensive. I can heat the whole house whilst using the same amount of power than 1 old 2.5Kw electric radiator we had. We’ve got the 10Kw external unit as we have 5 indoor units, all 3 bed and 2 units downstairs. Great so far, the test will be next winter though. We use a sunamp heat battery charged over night for hot water. Costs us average £7 per month on cheap overnight rate. Old cylinder needed replacing when we moved in, so we took the leap, also gave us a load of space back. We are now ready for solar, but will save our pennies for that. I’m not convinced by getting a battery though. Massively more expensive than solar alone, and my heat battery can act as a 10Kw battery of sorts… great to get your input.
It's always nice to do away with overnight grid usage even if it's just 3kwh a night. Not a huge return but it definitely completes the system. Where batteries earn their keep is exporting at peak times with an export tariff like flux. You can start to get a healthy credit instead of any energy bill at all
We are looking for a hot water solution when the A2A gets installed to get rid of gas. As we have a combo boiler currently and no water tank the sunamp seems like a great idea!
@@MCSMIK the main reason for the heat battery was because we weren’t really able to us solar thermal or a heat pump etc. It was just an old cylinder using economy 7 tariff to heat up at night. So the heat battery works great with octopus go. We also have an electric car.
@@EVPuzzleok ill let you know have you got the hauyi units how every your write there name lol 😂, they look better than the usual white boxs on the wall and what monitoring are you using to get the usage data as will want the data into ha like you , you know us data geeks love our data 🧐
Great reviews Nigel, thanks for taking the time to share your experience with your extensive array of energy tech. One question I have is how many Sqm is your dwelling? I am very interested in the Haori units and trying to roughly gauge the kw size of the heat pump required for 92 sqm. I realise the insulation counts a great deal as well.
136m2 total but I'm only covering half the 4 bedrooms and none of the bathrooms. The other rooms are cooled if needed by leaving doors open I'm confident the 8kw outside inverter would cool/ heat the entire house but as it only allows 4 internal units , a whole house solution would need two outside units to allow every room to have a cooling/heating unit
congrats on your system, you've done a good job. The one point i would like to make is that I think 'on demand' resistive heating should be sent to the naughty step, because (because) when you need it, everyone else in your region (or nationally) is likely to need it also and it is only 100% efficient, as you know a heat pump is possibly 400%+ efficient, so at a national scale we only need to generate 1/4 of the electricity for a heat pump based energy. Heat pump systems are not there yet in terms of that type of versatility & speed of response, do we need to consider change of habits or systems to store the high efficiency (>100%) derived energy?
Just a quick word. What you have is a Multi Split System. Most have ability to connect Indoor units totaling 130% to 180% of Outdoor Unit capacity depending on the Brand you select. Usually used as Zoneing where bedrooms not used during daytime or Formal Entertaining areas and Casual Family areas used at differing times. All Indoors operating is possible but at reduced output of their rating.
Yes that's true although I don't need to add everything up to know what I've installed is the right thing . Produce your own energy and then convert everything to use it. There's no cheaper solution than sunshine imo
I’m just putting my heating totals together now , and using the data to justify future decisions over heating, I think we have a similar sized home than you but we kept our temps constant , and spent just over £500 , so will be interesting in deed to compare stats
Checking numbers makes a huge amount of sense. If you're happy how the heat feels, why change? Adding something like A2A might same some kwhs but won't cost justify unless you value the aircon ability. Energy prices have hopefully peaked also.
I've just ordered to be installed Daikin 6.8kwh air to air- 2 x 2.5kwh cheap white head units and 1x2.5kwh matt black stylish mid range £3900 7 years warranty
Thanks for sharing this. In terms of the savings, when we are at net zero it would be necessary to offset the emissions from the fossil fuel heating. (And morally speaking we should be already be at net zero and some of us offset for that reason). Offsetting is very cheap at the moment because so few people do it. But offsetting on an industrial scale is really expensive, so technically adding that to the cost of the heating would reduce the 'payback time' considerably.
I would question if cont-justification for this is the correct approach. People do not cost-justify buying a nicer sofa - you buy it, because it brings you level of comfort that the previous one did not give you. So that's an aspect to consider, too.
I couldn't help but notice how low your tariff rates were for last winter. So if we assume that next winter (and future years) the kWh rate will be higher then you are going to reduce the pay back period. On our solar system I regard the upfront cost as just returning a better rate than a savings account. In 18 months we have 'saved' 22.16% of the initial cost. Being retired it was a way of reducing our future energy costs and not looking at in in ROI terms.
Thankyou for this interesting update. I was inspired by one of your previous reports to look into this concept, but here in East Yorkshire it has been impossible to find a supplier to talk to me, let alone get multiple quotes. I am staggered that this idea has not come within the government support scheme, and perhaps this is one reason why so few suppliers are offering this system. If anyone in my area knows of a good suitable supplier, then I would welcome their advice.
in ireland i pay on average 21 pence per 1 kwh, it is exactly 3 times more than you pay, so I don't think I'll be switching any time soon. I use 250 kwh per month and that cost me 78 pounds, without heating. i use three hundered liters of oil that cost about 270 pounds but that is far from comfortable, I only use it when temerature drops down to 5 degrees and have it on for maybe one hour a day. still I dont thing that electric heating (that is a heat pump) is going to imrove anything in my case.
Always surprised by how much less energy you use to heat! I just did a similar summary of our IR panels, and we used much more energy even on our supplemental heating haha
Great video. We’re installing a Samsung A2A system first week of June. Looking forward to using it with our solar and battery system. Might need to add extra storage to keep our grid use to off peak as we currently don’t use any peak electricity with solar and battery. Next will be wet rooms - did you just get an electrician to install the immersions and from speaking to one - they’re not going to fit into small bathroom radiators apparently?
Great, informative video! Our PV system is small (3.75kw), so during winter it does struggle. Even though, our winter bill has reduced by 3/4, but we still have gas central heating. Looking at your experience, this a2a system does look a very appealing gas alternative for us to look into. But can I ask what did you find is the running cost of the Heat Pump was/is? As I’m concerned that we would end up powering it fully from the Grid in the winter. Also, did you find any condensation happening in the unheated rooms?
No condensation in unheated rooms. Moisture generated where people sleep, wash, cook etc Running costs? That's what this video covers. £86 whole of winter peaking at 20kwhs a day for heating in absolute worst conditions Worst Conditions, heat pump worked brilliantly just used a few more kwhs when below zero and a few defrost cycles
I know you obviously didn’t have the heating on all of the time, but that works out at 40p a day to heat your house for 7 months. Very nice! Shows that system works well. Going to have a serious look into this now. Please keep your videos coming. I’ve always enjoy them 👍👍
just installed an ASHP so no real data for this. But we have 4bed house 6kW solar e-w formerly with oil heating, and installed a Drayton "wiser" radiator system where important rooms are controlled by individual radiator WIFI thermostats. Each major room can have different temperatures set. (we do not require beds for instance to be at 20C and in fact maintain a sensible 17C most days from heat from lower floors). With the ashp installed I know that "heat geeks" would say we've got it all wrong - "the ashp needs to run continually" - but so far the energy use has been comparable to when using of a year ago. Most power goes to ev charging at low rates (octopus go)
@theevpuzzle what energy monitors are you using to give you a break down of each device? looking to install A2A and would like to monitor the use of each device. Thanks. Great video.
Shelly energy monitor with 50a CT. Get installer to add it when they put the circuit breaker in. Some models allow energy monitoring themselves of course
Over sizing your heat pump/AC slightly is better than under sizing. The compressor is inverter controlled so will back if on the power when it near target temp
I disagree, over sizing will make it stop start more. Keeping it Ticking over is the idea. Heat pumps work best when running continually We run in eco/silent mode so never run full power, always under sized
@@EVPuzzle the whole point of the newer inverter driven compressors is to slow the speed so it doesn't start stop just because it's rated at 7kw doesn't mean it will consume that the inverter will back the compressor down to idle.
@@gasmoney9319 agreed but I've checked the idling wattages and the bigger the inverter the higher the tick over. I've compared to those with larger inverters too Very glad I went a size down
Very difficult decision, power v efficiency but in reality with modern systems you are talking of 30 to 80 watts turn down difference which in reality means over sizing is the way to go if you are unsure. A lot of people are fitting a compressor with one spare way for an insurance against future requirements or under sizing as the cost compared to the install is minimal.
Its not all about pay back as you wouldn't calculate how long it would take to pay back a boiler. As it would never pay itself back its just something you need to have. So if you're saying money with an electric system it's a win win for me. We just got solar last November. Best decision we ever made. Haven't played for any electric for the last 2 months.
46yr payback doesnt seem right. In Australia here, switched from gas ducted heating to 2x A2A Panasonic heat pumps. They're on year round, either heating or cooling depending on the season, and we have 5kw of solar, so in summer they run for free. My payback is about 4 years because i was able to disconnect from the gas system entirely, so i dont pay useage or ongoing connection/network fee. Install price was a bit over $5000.
Nice video as usual nig, I've got a question for you please I'm getting top floor air to air (3 beds) so in the winter I could in theory turn off all the radiators up stair and use heaters for up stairs, I have gas combi do you think it will be more cost using both or cheaper still using just radiators for heating? 😅
Thats a tough one as I worked the opposite way around. I wanted to reduce kwhs and cost so beefed up heaters downstairs as heat rises. If we heated downstairs with the boiler and upstairs with A2A, the A2A system would have much less to do so smaller savings plus AC is needed more downstairs during the day Depends on your usage of rooms though. We heat during the day and turn off at night so heat whilst we're downstairs during the day.
I also have an air to air installed just before the 40 degree week last summer: great for cooling then! Only my main room so it reduces my gas CH usage for winter. In your comparison it sounded like you used the current oil cost. Surely the cost of oil at the peak going into the winter just gone is relevant to the saving ? Also note that you mentioned the lack of oil servicing cost. What about the servicing of the air to air. Need to check for leaks (legal requirement if I recall) as well as clean the units to maintain efficiency.
I know you are a hardy chap when it comes to heating in the house. How did you find the heat level near the floor, bearing in mind where the system is and heat rises? Cheers.
Hardy lol, I like to be comfortable but not sweating . I wear shorts and t shirts in winter mostly . Didn't notice anything , temperature was even everywhere and floor not cold. Stone floors in bathrooms is another thing , they take more time to warm up if not on continuously. Cool air falling helps with cooling in summer from upstairs to down and heating vice versa rising as you say but I aim the hot air down from the higher mounting point so that probably helps , it easily circulates the entire room on low fan speeds
With up to £5K contribution now, heat pump installs are getting cheaper. I did read that B Gas are offering a standard installation for £2995. I do think air to air would be better, but some have no other choice than a wet install. - looking at your pump, I do thing the manufactures need to make more effort and make them easier on the eye, such as the ones from RED.
Wow very impressive being you are a very detailed person , going to watch other videos if you’ve done some , I was thinking about have a system with air and get rid of the radiators , I don’t have solar or battery storage, just thought about having three air units with a storage tank , I have a small house and live alone , because you have solar a battery storage just wondering what my cost would be = hard to tell one thinks. Going to watch other videos by you if you have done some .
We use 10k kwh of gas for heating a year down from 12500 kwh it was running at after learning about flow rates and set backs instead of spike/boost heating. Its more comfortable and cheap*er* but definitely still not *cheap*. I cant get it cheaper without also being cold or spending money replacing boiler and some radiators, so thats as good as its going to get. Im *desperate* to get a2a - i have solar, so the aircon will be free which is a bonus. But its not about that, because im something of a lizard anyway. Its for the heating reduction. Itll probably bring us down to about 2k kwh, most of it cheap rate (which is the same rate as gas now, roughly, but still wasnt much more than gas before it spiked). My £200 monthly bill before standing charge would drop to nearer £50. Less, if its a particularly sunny winter. The payback period would be about 20 years still, but id have £150 extra a month to play with. But i dont have the upfront cash, an no grants to bring in reach. Meantime im spewing copious quantities of co2 put my house daily every winter no matter how balanced i get the condensing boiler argh!!!! A2a with no grant is slightly less for me than a2w with a grant. I cant afford either (because the solar/battery/water tank has already all been paid for put my own pocket) *why* can we not get them for a2a?? Thank god i did get the solar and battery because i couldnt have paid my energy bills last year without, but the price rises have wiped out any monthly "savings" i was going to make, which i was going to use for a2a. I know im still super privileged to be in the position im in but this last piece of the puzzle would make SO much difference to me, and if adopted widely for properties with solar would reduce water use, gas use, co2 output, and heat deaths by a noticeable amount. Its just crazy that its not on the cards.
A 3 way minispilt shouldnt be more than 3500? With 314 saved a year thats aprox 12 years. Dependig on no price or regularitory changes. Ironnically, you if you scaled up the system (ie the 2kw larger outdoor unit) you could have done away with the log burning and saving even more. Although that would have been imported electricity. But your logs cost almost 2x all the electricity.
Hey, I may have misunderstood this - but if most of your £86 cost is actually related to your car (£56), then your like for like “house + hot water heating” cost savings is far greater than what you mentioned and so your payback could be much less…
I am thinking of Mixergy water heater, infrared heaters and solar panels. I was originally having wet underfloor heating in family room and ASHP but don't think it will work now and perhaps is not the right choice anymore. I am a bit scared going all electric. Our roof is east and west facing. Towels heaters are a great call. What are your thoughts on this combination?
Whats your view on annual service Nigel? Im getting a few mixed messages but the consistent advice seems to be that its required to keep the warranty valid. Wondered if you had a quote for your 3?
It is for warranty and it's really only a filter clean but the water extraction pipes need cleaning otherwise mould will build up etc. Servicing isn't an issue if it's sensibly priced imo
No it's a standard 2000s house with decent double glazing . Loft insulation isn't great to be honest it needs another layer as it's been broken up, moved and pulled away for every job that needed loft access. Another job on the list to add insulation . I've also discovered wall insulation is patchy , shoddy builders skimping it seems . Not sure how to fix that as it's random where insulation is missing . Need a spy camera in the calls but that means drilling holes . Might clad one wall as a solution but I guess I'm at a good starting point already given how warm the house feels
Impressive results. As the log fire is your biggest financial liability, is the least efficient as well as being the worst for the environment have you any plans to remove & replace that burdon with something more environmentally friendly and financially viable?
To be honest our A2A has replaced it now. Toshiba units are more than capable so it's just a choice now and a case of weaning ourselves off the fires. Wondering if a candle shrine around the stove might help. Plan is to reduce before stopping but it's only a matter of time
Wow, your wood is cheap, we paid £240 for 1.17 ms. Will have to look for a better deal. Great update on your system, which will assist a lot of people.
There are several errors in the calculation. £550 used to be the cost of your heating during a heating season. With the new system it is £236. Difference, i.e. the saving: £314. It cost £5250 to build the new system. Payback based on these figures: 16.7 years.
Some people say wall units are good for cooling but just warm up the ceiling in heating mode. Do you think a floor standing inverter would be better idea for this use or do you think newer wall units are good enough at directing the heat downwards?
Ive got solar and battery storage only 8kwh of storage. Ive got a 3 bedroom detached house very similar style to yours. Im thinking of just adding 1 x 2.5kwh for my lounge which is approx 11 x 15 ft with open stair case to upstairs. I like you are wanting to mainly use the energy from my battery's off peak and not pay for peak figure's, so reason i was thinking of just getting 1 small 2.5kwh system to heat the main room ie my living room , think the running costs of 2.5kwh system shoukd be about 600 / 800 watts when running ??
About £65 I believe Scop is hard to determine . I've actually just switched off from it. I only need to know my watts, kwhs and £££ I trust the units are the most efficient I could get 2+ scop in winter 5+ in summer
Cleaning the filters is very easy. If you have pets you may need to do it more than the manual recommends but it’s a 5 minute job running them under the kitchen tap. I had a yearly contract on mine for maintenance check but the technician never found a problem in 5 years.
Is the Air to Air system effective at heating rooms the unit isn't in? If you leave doors open does the heat move around well? For example if you have your A2A unit's on will Charlotte get any benefit or does she always have to use her own radiator regardless of whether your units are on?
My battery should be getting installed very soon. The next item for me will be heating. I'm keen on A2A (microbore currently), but my wife is concerned about it drying the air. Have you noticed that at all? I've also heard there are some A2A systems that will also heat the water tank & so attract the Govt £5k grant. Do you know anything about that?
Informative video. Thanks! Do you ever find it stuffy with air-air? Just wondering what the air quality is like compared to a wet system and radiators (which can obviously be a bit stuffy too!)
How much have all these renewables cost you to install? I have had an Airsource heat pump for 9 years which has been great but now thinking of maybe adding solar. My current total electricity usage is 7000kwh for hot water heating and all other electricity usage for tvs, washing machine etc. I have no gas except the hib in the kitchen lol
Thanks for the vid at the moment I'm just using plyontech batteries 15kw at the moment. I'll be adding solor at some point this year and one more battery. So at the moment I use infrared panels that work for me when I'm at home. But I have been hearing alot about your solution. Do you have details on install and model for the air 2 air conditioner
Details are in the video descriptions. I've done 2 or 3 videos on this now which cove the models and specs etc. Also, Try googling Toshiba multi split aircon and Toshiba Haori. Toshiba aren't the only supplier, mitsubishi was a close 2nd for me
We are having some cheaper Samsung units fitted, mainly for A/C but I'm keen to see how well they do at heating. My main concern is how well the heat will distribute around the house from only a few units.
I have a Toshiba system with 4 indoor units downstairs and only run two which heat downstairs and upstairs. If I set the temp in the open plan lounge upstairs bedrooms will run two degrees lower, obviously with the bedroom doors open. Air to air forced draught distributes heat far differently to radiators using convection. A lot of people fit a compressor with a spare way as an insurance for future proofing the system which in reality will only incur a small cost compared to the cost of an installation.
Same issue as the old ones, insulation and control over heat release. They've improved but not by much and of course in winter we don't get much solar so it's overnight charging for daytime release A2A is a much better system
@@EVPuzzle Thanks! I am On the fence about an open circuit ground source heat pump or air to air. Keen on a private water source as well as a hybrid ground source boiler….but the borehole digging costs are eye watering! A2A seems like a solid option!
Ground source with a huge bore hole is good for best efficiency in winter etc but £25k is scary without good grants and you're still left with a bigger pumping needs so more overhead. Unless it's a huge property ground source seems ott
Remember to notify your DNO after Heat Pump installation as it's a DNO Requirement. Ours wasn't notified by the Installer, so I had to do it myself while we were installing a second 22kW ev charger. The DNO refused to upgrade our 3 Phase to 100 Amps per phase... without new cabling, a 200 Amp Industrial cutout (which wouldn't have fitted in the meter box). So we had to stick with 80 Amps per phase... which is now at maximum load on their approval calculations... 😢 The two 22kW ev chargers, two Powerwalls, Heat Pump and 7kW ev charger scared them to death 😂😊
The air pollution from log fires is awful, and you have a clean efficient A2A system there just use that and the electric Vs log's prices will be cheaper
I like how you tried to justify you poor financial investment while saying it did not matter 😄In reality, you simply paid a high price but got the ability to have a/c and reduced your CO2 to do your bit - forget trying to financially justify it.
And just to add, we have had A2A HPs in our house for over 20 years. It was installed to get a/c during the short period needed in our summers. The heating COP is around 3 but gets closer to 1 as the temps go below zero and is efficiently used to heat 1 or 2 individual rooms when he whole house CH is off (e.g. my daughter gets up 3 hours earlier than the rest of us due to shift work). I have never considered trying to justify it as a cost saving though.
Hi Nigel - 11:50 you mention monitoring heating with smartplugs - in your other Toshiba video you said the multisplit doesn't have energy monitoring per individual inside unit, so presumably you're monitoring the A2A as a whole, not per room? Just about to do a similar thing in my house (talking to Graham too!) and was hoping I'd be able to monitor room by room...
Quite why these systems fall outside of the heat pump grants in UK is beyond me.... They clearly are a great option especially in older properties where changing pipes, radiator etc isn't an option....
Great video, very informative .
It will be interesting to see your usage in summer when in air conditioning mode.....& how much you enjoy that mode.
We have the same system... in Summer last year it was 40 degrees outside... 45 degrees in conservatory... and 20 degrees in the house.
We've installed 6mm laminate glass in the slider doors and windows so the temperature difference doesn't shatter the glass.
Lovely 😂😊
Because the government are great at wasting money on wet air source system incentives if air to air were subsidised to some extent the uptake would be faster also overall electric consumption would be lower, I also question why v.a.t. is charged on insulation products bought as a D.I.Y. project less incentive for people to upgrade there insulation . I have brought these points up with my M.P and minister in charge the reply received proves that we will not meet the target they have set.
Given we almost turned the AC on just the other day, I suspect it'll be well used. I'm looking forward to finding out also
I think it's mainly because there's no real guarantee that the boiler is being ripped out etc, and some might use it just to get AC for summer, and their carbon emissions stay the same.
@@BenIsInSweden fair enough. Just insist that the system installed retires a boiler
Just installed air 2 air last month and although i have a box on the wall we love the fact its warm and no compromise needed to heat the house. 400w our lounge is runing at with a temp 26c door left open and its filling the house with warmth. 😊
26c crikey you like it warm 😉. We've done similar, boost one room and push air to other rooms
@@EVPuzzle partner is Italian so we compensate 🤣 although it's not too warm as the door is open so not really getting heat spot.
Is this the same as : electriQ Easy-Fit 12000 BTU A++ WiFi Smart Wall-Mounted Split Air Conditioner with Heat Pump and 4.5-Meter Pipe Kit reviews verified
Is it economical ?
Fantastic information as always👍I have wanted to go down the air-2-air heat pump route for quite a long time, but it almost seems to be frowned upon up here in the north east of Scotland, which is strange given that these systems are very common up in Orkney/Shetland/Scandinavia etc. Most installers want to sell you an air-2-water system at an exorbitant price and won't install air-2-air in domestic properties. Much like yourself, the payback period is less of a concern for me as I want to go green but also have the benefit of being able to remove the water radiators etc. I have a home based business and will be installing solar/batteries to offset my power usage and also provide power during power cuts which seems to be happening more and more these days.
Jesus wept, that's amazing. I can't wait to get mine installed. My system will have 7 internal units as I want heat throughout
46 years to payback? Not everyone is as lucky as you are to invest. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience.
Thankfully solar is paying back everything much soon. Could be as quick as 8 years energy prices depending
In your payback calculation, you need to consider the possibility that your oil tank could have a negative value some time in the future. In Norway as of 2020, it is unlawful to have an oil tank (and therefore oil fired heating) in domestic properties. The cost of removal also requires the tank to be cleaned prior to removal and the ground to be tested for contamination. If there is contamination, then you’re liable for costs to decontaminate the ground. I’m sure you can imagine that gets expensive. But the question to ask is whether similar requirements become mandated in our country. I’m guessing not for at least 10 years, but when they do, there’ll be a desperate scramble to offload oil tanks before such testing / cleaning requirements become law.
I just moved to Cornwall from the USA. I had a heat pump ducted system in different homes for over 35 years . About 5 years ago my unit needed replacing and I decided to install a mini split air to air system . My electric bill was over 30% less than the conventional ducted forced air system. They are quiet and if sized properly will heat/cool a room in a couple of munites. This has a lot to do with the compressor setup in the mini splits. They are much more efficient and far less prone to failure due to the huge reduction in power needed to start each cycle. When any one tells you that heat pumps don’t work, they either have a financial motive or they are just wilfully ignorant.
Great comment and spot on
Every is talking about payback time, blablah and not talking about elephant in the room...
Literally the "elephant" in the room, the freaking radiators. Getting rid of those eyesores is what the upfront installation cost for me.
Great video.
This is a bit late, but I wanted to thank you - first for putting me on to the AtoA system, and then for Graham Durrant's details. I live in Shropshire and have wanted a system like this for some time, I contacted Graham initially just for advice but he was so prompt in replying and included a quote for installing which was way below the only one that I managed to get from 4 different firms up here that I went with him (the quote included travel and accomodation!) all the way from Great Yarmouth. He came when he said he would and did exactly what I wanted in 2 days and hoovered and took all the rubbish away with him. He was a bit of a revelation compared to the folks up here! Brilliant!
That's really special, thank you for sharing . So glad to have helped but Graham deserves the credit mostly .
He's back to service mine next month , such an easy process
Wow, thanks for posting that, Kate. I'm in Norwich and just starting to look at A2A for my house in Norwich. Like DavidD, I'm thinking to leave the newish gas combi in place for hot water and bathrooms pro tem. Will be contacting Graham smartish...
@@SarahMould don't forget to mention to Graham where you found him 😉
Great stuff !. When I installed solar pv and thermal , air to water heat pump and log burner over 10 years ago ..my friends thought I was a nutter .
Now that I get paid to charge my kona when the sun shines they have a very different view 😂
I always look forward to a new video breaking things down and showing the actual figures.
Great to hear you’re loving the air-to-air system over a wet system - we’re replacing storage heaters so putting a wet system in was looking costly, to put it mildly.
Your info (along with other sources, of course) helped us make our decision about getting an air-to-air system. Due to be fitted in June, all being well.
Keep up the great work, your info and content is very useful and entertaining.
Hard to believe my videos help like this but very glad they do. It's the aim to share a good thing and hopefully not have many failures to share
"It will not pay for itself within our lifetimes but we have admitted we should be comfortable instead of being excessively frugal"
System should have a Cop of 5 or more. Roughly any cop achieved of 3.5 or over will beat a gas system
My sofa definitely won't pay for itself and neither did our old oil boiler
I've had my AC on the past few days, even though the outside temperature has been around 22⁰C, for 2 reasons - 1) I hate working/sleeping in 22+C indoors, so comfort. 2) It also is an air purifier, and pollen has been high. Also don't forget these units are even more efficient at AC than heating, so having the AC on should be cheaper to run than the heating especially if the Sun is providing the electricity for it 😀
Brutally honest review of system, costs and savings. Thank You
Very impressed with out Toshiba Haori split system we have just had fitted in the Lounge, super fast warm up time so you can turn it off when the room is not being used, very economical to run and don't even notice the wall unit - now seeing where else in the house we can fit more units
I have decided we need to get an air-2-air system. Struggling to get my wife to agree though. We also got a new boiler fitted in 2019 before I new about green alternatives. Will probably just get more solar installed to help cover the cost of gas and then a heat pump system in a few years when we retire.
Get her to agree to aircon as a treat in summer. Shhh about the heating 😉
Look at air to air speciations 2000 watt or 2 kw output heat or cold cost only about 400 to 500 watt input so you can get 4 or 5 small units ie 8000 watts to 10000 watts costing very little to run I put in 5 small units s if 1 breaks down you have 4 working still working check the specifications the small units can use up to 50% less input power that a single 8 to 10 kw unit. I also find leaving the units on 24 / 7 the inverter air conditioning bit like a car on a freeway using cruise control when the house get warm the inverters input power drops down to just what is needed.
Thanks for this Nigel, great to hear your thoughts and reasoning. It's certainly an household by household use case in terms of what's best the fabric, occupants and lifestyle. No one solution. I'm please to hear you are happy with your choice as that's all that counts at the end of the day.
Absolutely. I'm glad I took my time and thought and learnt about the way the house retained heat and when it didnt. Trying different things gave us confidence in what we liked and what we didn't.
Moving heaters, trying different wattages, as well as experimenting with decreasing temps and increasing temps.
Lots of scary stories out there of people unhappy after spending 10-20k really focused my mind on testing my thoughts and theories
I've got a similar setup, just 2 3KW units downstairs which do heat downstairs nicely. We still have a recent gas combi boiler for hot water and a lower temp for background heat.
My goodness Nigel best video to date IMHO 🥰 Now you have me seriously thinking as I have a wet heat-pump system booked in…. Just keep thinking A2A might be better bet and a Mixergy or Sunamp for hot water. I’ve got 27 kWh batteries and 6kW of solar.. 👍🏻
Food for thought . Responsive nature if the heat plus independence of each unit is a big win for me over a wet system . Plus there's free cooking in summer 🌞
Thank you! ...encouraged by your results and really useful and honest review, we turned off the gas in June and got a couple of 3.5kW mini splits (£3.5k all in). I avoided multi-split to give us some redundancy with two separate inverters. We are very happy with the system but as said in the comments; individuals' circumstances will make this work or not. For instance our kids have all left home so we are happy to keep all the doors open to circulate the heat. We also have MVHR which helps that. You get VERY cheap electricity because you have solar+batteries+EV. I managed to get onto Octopus Cosy because we have heat pumps now, but anyone with a poorly insulated house, electricity at 30p/kWh and a family of five showering twice a day might have to have a think. BTW we installed a wall mounted unit upstairs and a floor mounted unit downstairs - works great.
Another really good video, very informative. My own opinion is you need solar and some battery storage before going fully electric for heating. I totally agree with you on better for the planet and reducing costs, but I feel unless you invest in solar and battery first, electric is an expensive way to heat your home. I have family who have air source and ground source heating and their total electric bill for everything is still comparable to mine, and I have a gas boiler. I'm just waiting for my boiler to break and then go down the heat source route. Anyway great video, keep them coming. All the best.
Many thanks. The higher COP values of a heat pump make it a no brainer in my view.
Initial outlay can be high though which puts some off but link it with other ejectric initiatives and it makes sense as a strategy .
The key isn't solar in winter as you're lucky to cover your other house loads in winter . A battery can help but they're expensive if you can't utilise it more than just a few months owe year .
The key really is being on a cheaper electric tariff 20p 30p 10p ? It makes a huge difference. I'm paying 9p on average
Over the same October-April period we used 5500kW of energy for hot water and heating in our ASHP. From October to mid December (when I found and got the issue fixed) one of our heating pumps had jammed so the system was working too hard to move the water around, but even say 5000kW we’re an order of magnitude above your figures Nigel.
But we have a large house and the usage tracks similar to our oil boiler system so its not excessively more expensive or cheaper, and as you say solar means some of it is free heating. Our oil tank failed and I couldn’t site a new tank where the old one was, so went electric, took advantage of the previous RHI grant which covers most of the installation cost. All in all I’m happy too
Our neighbours just had to move their tank top. As soon as I empty the oil, ours is going
Presuming your heat pump is bigger than. 8kw?
Yes I've got two 9kW ASHP's. The heat loss calculation identified that a 15kW system was needed but there wasn't any MCS approved 15kW systems. So it's oversized for the demand
Nice overview. Going full electric pays off when you consider many variables, individual situations and preferences. So it is not easy doing so for the masses. It must be done since we need to say goodbye to fossil fuels as much as possible and lo log burning as well since it pollutes the air this way harming the health of your neighbours.
Thanks for the video. I am convinced. Got someone coming round today for a quote 😅
I had a quote for a heat pump. It was twice the price of a gas system and it would take up half my patio. I'm terraced so nowhere discreet to put one. Keeping my forty year old boiler for now. House pretty much running off solar now so no heating until October. Thanks for the update.
We’ve had the haori system installed by ignite heating and cooling, we are off the gas grid and had ancient storage heaters and electric resistive radiators as we are all electric.
Huge improvement, far less wasteful and I’m sure it will save us money as heating was massively expensive.
I can heat the whole house whilst using the same amount of power than 1 old 2.5Kw electric radiator we had.
We’ve got the 10Kw external unit as we have 5 indoor units, all 3 bed and 2 units downstairs.
Great so far, the test will be next winter though.
We use a sunamp heat battery charged over night for hot water. Costs us average £7 per month on cheap overnight rate. Old cylinder needed replacing when we moved in, so we took the leap, also gave us a load of space back.
We are now ready for solar, but will save our pennies for that. I’m not convinced by getting a battery though. Massively more expensive than solar alone, and my heat battery can act as a 10Kw battery of sorts… great to get your input.
It's always nice to do away with overnight grid usage even if it's just 3kwh a night. Not a huge return but it definitely completes the system.
Where batteries earn their keep is exporting at peak times with an export tariff like flux. You can start to get a healthy credit instead of any energy bill at all
We are looking for a hot water solution when the A2A gets installed to get rid of gas. As we have a combo boiler currently and no water tank the sunamp seems like a great idea!
@@MCSMIK consider mixergy too, cheaper than heat batteries and does bring savings in winter when most needed
@@MCSMIK the main reason for the heat battery was because we weren’t really able to us solar thermal or a heat pump etc. It was just an old cylinder using economy 7 tariff to heat up at night.
So the heat battery works great with octopus go. We also have an electric car.
You’re doing it the right way, much better than those spending a fortune on batteries to power infrared and resistive heaters.
Don't forget to include the costs of deep cleaning the inside head units every 2 or 3 years.
Nice figures. We going air 2 air too as want air con too looking for 2024 sometime
Let Me know when you're looking for quotes and I'll Tip Graham the wink that a friend just over the border needs a good system.
@@EVPuzzleok ill let you know have you got the hauyi units how every your write there name lol 😂, they look better than the usual white boxs on the wall and what monitoring are you using to get the usage data as will want the data into ha like you , you know us data geeks love our data 🧐
Great reviews Nigel, thanks for taking the time to share your experience with your extensive array of energy tech. One question I have is how many Sqm is your dwelling? I am very interested in the Haori units and trying to roughly gauge the kw size of the heat pump required for 92 sqm. I realise the insulation counts a great deal as well.
136m2 total but I'm only covering half the 4 bedrooms and none of the bathrooms. The other rooms are cooled if needed by leaving doors open
I'm confident the 8kw outside inverter would cool/ heat the entire house but as it only allows 4 internal units , a whole house solution would need two outside units to allow every room to have a cooling/heating unit
congrats on your system, you've done a good job. The one point i would like to make is that I think 'on demand' resistive heating should be sent to the naughty step, because (because) when you need it, everyone else in your region (or nationally) is likely to need it also and it is only 100% efficient, as you know a heat pump is possibly 400%+ efficient, so at a national scale we only need to generate 1/4 of the electricity for a heat pump based energy. Heat pump systems are not there yet in terms of that type of versatility & speed of response, do we need to consider change of habits or systems to store the high efficiency (>100%) derived energy?
Just a quick word. What you have is a Multi Split System. Most have ability to connect Indoor units totaling 130% to 180% of Outdoor Unit capacity depending on the Brand you select. Usually used as Zoneing where bedrooms not used during daytime or Formal Entertaining areas and Casual Family areas used at differing times. All Indoors operating is possible but at reduced output of their rating.
Soon i would have to replace my oil boiler . A2a is as cheap pieces of kit, and running it cheaper… and I get my walls back! No radiators!
trying find a good installer is so bloody hard!!! like you i want air 2 air but most installer thinks i talk gibbish!!!!!!
Excellent analysis. If you were still using the boiler, it would have needed replacing at some point, so that will help the payback period. ☮️
Yes that's true although I don't need to add everything up to know what I've installed is the right thing .
Produce your own energy and then convert everything to use it. There's no cheaper solution than sunshine imo
£550 for heating was incredibly low already... Well done on your systems and savings
Yep I don't think our yard is typical, we're quite efficient. What's noticeable is how much more were using it now it's so cheap with solar
I’m just putting my heating totals together now , and using the data to justify future decisions over heating, I think we have a similar sized home than you but we kept our temps constant , and spent just over £500 , so will be interesting in deed to compare stats
Checking numbers makes a huge amount of sense. If you're happy how the heat feels, why change? Adding something like A2A might same some kwhs but won't cost justify unless you value the aircon ability.
Energy prices have hopefully peaked also.
I've just ordered to be installed Daikin 6.8kwh air to air- 2 x 2.5kwh cheap white head units and 1x2.5kwh matt black stylish mid range £3900 7 years warranty
Good value
Thanks for sharing this.
In terms of the savings, when we are at net zero it would be necessary to offset the emissions from the fossil fuel heating. (And morally speaking we should be already be at net zero and some of us offset for that reason).
Offsetting is very cheap at the moment because so few people do it. But offsetting on an industrial scale is really expensive, so technically adding that to the cost of the heating would reduce the 'payback time' considerably.
I would question if cont-justification for this is the correct approach. People do not cost-justify buying a nicer sofa - you buy it, because it brings you level of comfort that the previous one did not give you. So that's an aspect to consider, too.
I think I said this also
I couldn't help but notice how low your tariff rates were for last winter. So if we assume that next winter (and future years) the kWh rate will be higher then you are going to reduce the pay back period. On our solar system I regard the upfront cost as just returning a better rate than a savings account. In 18 months we have 'saved' 22.16% of the initial cost. Being retired it was a way of reducing our future energy costs and not looking at in in ROI terms.
Thankyou for this interesting update. I was inspired by one of your previous reports to look into this concept, but here in East Yorkshire it has been impossible to find a supplier to talk to me, let alone get multiple quotes. I am staggered that this idea has not come within the government support scheme, and perhaps this is one reason why so few suppliers are offering this system. If anyone in my area knows of a good suitable supplier, then I would welcome their advice.
My installer is traveling for installs, he stops over locally apparently. Details in the video descriptions
We are in Sheffield and used KB cooling
in ireland i pay on average 21 pence per 1 kwh, it is exactly 3 times more than you pay, so I don't think I'll be switching any time soon. I use 250 kwh per month and that cost me 78 pounds, without heating. i use three hundered liters of oil that cost about 270 pounds but that is far from comfortable, I only use it when temerature drops down to 5 degrees and have it on for maybe one hour a day. still I dont thing that electric heating (that is a heat pump) is going to imrove anything in my case.
Crazy eh? How can that be right paying 3 times as much for the same thing
Always surprised by how much less energy you use to heat! I just did a similar summary of our IR panels, and we used much more energy even on our supplemental heating haha
Great video. We’re installing a Samsung A2A system first week of June. Looking forward to using it with our solar and battery system. Might need to add extra storage to keep our grid use to off peak as we currently don’t use any peak electricity with solar and battery. Next will be wet rooms - did you just get an electrician to install the immersions and from speaking to one - they’re not going to fit into small bathroom radiators apparently?
my A2A installer did them. Sparkies don't like plumbing and vice versa
Great, informative video!
Our PV system is small (3.75kw), so during winter it does struggle. Even though, our winter bill has reduced by 3/4, but we still have gas central heating. Looking at your experience, this a2a system does look a very appealing gas alternative for us to look into. But can I ask what did you find is the running cost of the Heat Pump was/is? As I’m concerned that we would end up powering it fully from the Grid in the winter.
Also, did you find any condensation happening in the unheated rooms?
No condensation in unheated rooms. Moisture generated where people sleep, wash, cook etc
Running costs? That's what this video covers. £86 whole of winter peaking at 20kwhs a day for heating in absolute worst conditions
Worst Conditions, heat pump worked brilliantly just used a few more kwhs when below zero and a few defrost cycles
I know you obviously didn’t have the heating on all of the time, but that works out at 40p a day to heat your house for 7 months. Very nice! Shows that system works well. Going to have a serious look into this now.
Please keep your videos coming. I’ve always enjoy them 👍👍
More hot air from Nigel - carry on!
Very good 🙄
just installed an ASHP so no real data for this. But we have 4bed house 6kW solar e-w formerly with oil heating, and installed a Drayton "wiser" radiator system where important rooms are controlled by individual radiator WIFI thermostats. Each major room can have different temperatures set. (we do not require beds for instance to be at 20C and in fact maintain a sensible 17C most days from heat from lower floors). With the ashp installed I know that "heat geeks" would say we've got it all wrong - "the ashp needs to run continually" - but so far the energy use has been comparable to when using of a year ago. Most power goes to ev charging at low rates (octopus go)
@theevpuzzle what energy monitors are you using to give you a break down of each device? looking to install A2A and would like to monitor the use of each device. Thanks. Great video.
Shelly energy monitor with 50a CT. Get installer to add it when they put the circuit breaker in.
Some models allow energy monitoring themselves of course
I understand the 2023 inverter has energy monitoring across all indoor units. It's referred to by Toshiba as the G3, I'm being quoted for one.
Over sizing your heat pump/AC slightly is better than under sizing. The compressor is inverter controlled so will back if on the power when it near target temp
I disagree, over sizing will make it stop start more. Keeping it Ticking over is the idea. Heat pumps work best when running continually
We run in eco/silent mode so never run full power, always under sized
@@EVPuzzle the whole point of the newer inverter driven compressors is to slow the speed so it doesn't start stop just because it's rated at 7kw doesn't mean it will consume that the inverter will back the compressor down to idle.
@@gasmoney9319 agreed but I've checked the idling wattages and the bigger the inverter the higher the tick over. I've compared to those with larger inverters too
Very glad I went a size down
With inverters the AC load can't be speed controlled across the whole range. Most AC motors stall around the 20-25% mark.
Very difficult decision, power v efficiency but in reality with modern systems you are talking of 30 to 80 watts turn down difference which in reality means over sizing is the way to go if you are unsure. A lot of people are fitting a compressor with one spare way for an insurance against future requirements or under sizing as the cost compared to the install is minimal.
Its not all about pay back as you wouldn't calculate how long it would take to pay back a boiler. As it would never pay itself back its just something you need to have. So if you're saying money with an electric system it's a win win for me.
We just got solar last November. Best decision we ever made. Haven't played for any electric for the last 2 months.
Free Energy, can't beat it.
46yr payback doesnt seem right.
In Australia here, switched from gas ducted heating to 2x A2A Panasonic heat pumps. They're on year round, either heating or cooling depending on the season, and we have 5kw of solar, so in summer they run for free.
My payback is about 4 years because i was able to disconnect from the gas system entirely, so i dont pay useage or ongoing connection/network fee. Install price was a bit over $5000.
Nice video as usual nig, I've got a question for you please I'm getting top floor air to air (3 beds) so in the winter I could in theory turn off all the radiators up stair and use heaters for up stairs, I have gas combi do you think it will be more cost using both or cheaper still using just radiators for heating? 😅
Thats a tough one as I worked the opposite way around. I wanted to reduce kwhs and cost so beefed up heaters downstairs as heat rises.
If we heated downstairs with the boiler and upstairs with A2A, the A2A system would have much less to do so smaller savings plus AC is needed more downstairs during the day
Depends on your usage of rooms though. We heat during the day and turn off at night so heat whilst we're downstairs during the day.
I also have an air to air installed just before the 40 degree week last summer: great for cooling then! Only my main room so it reduces my gas CH usage for winter. In your comparison it sounded like you used the current oil cost. Surely the cost of oil at the peak going into the winter just gone is relevant to the saving ? Also note that you mentioned the lack of oil servicing cost. What about the servicing of the air to air. Need to check for leaks (legal requirement if I recall) as well as clean the units to maintain efficiency.
I know you are a hardy chap when it comes to heating in the house. How did you find the heat level near the floor, bearing in mind where the system is and heat rises? Cheers.
Hardy lol, I like to be comfortable but not sweating . I wear shorts and t shirts in winter mostly .
Didn't notice anything , temperature was even everywhere and floor not cold. Stone floors in bathrooms is another thing , they take more time to warm up if not on continuously.
Cool air falling helps with cooling in summer from upstairs to down and heating vice versa rising as you say but I aim the hot air down from the higher mounting point so that probably helps , it easily circulates the entire room on low fan speeds
With up to £5K contribution now, heat pump installs are getting cheaper. I did read that B Gas are offering a standard installation for £2995. I do think air to air would be better, but some have no other choice than a wet install. - looking at your pump, I do thing the manufactures need to make more effort and make them easier on the eye, such as the ones from RED.
Problem is quotes with grant magically jump by about £5k
RHI worked better imo
Wow very impressive being you are a very detailed person , going to watch other videos if you’ve done some , I was thinking about have a system with air and get rid of the radiators , I don’t have solar or battery storage, just thought about having three air units with a storage tank , I have a small house and live alone , because you have solar a battery storage just wondering what my cost would be = hard to tell one thinks. Going to watch other videos by you if you have done some .
"separate can be better... just like Hi Fi system"
We are in Sheffield and used KB cooling.
We use 10k kwh of gas for heating a year down from 12500 kwh it was running at after learning about flow rates and set backs instead of spike/boost heating. Its more comfortable and cheap*er* but definitely still not *cheap*. I cant get it cheaper without also being cold or spending money replacing boiler and some radiators, so thats as good as its going to get.
Im *desperate* to get a2a - i have solar, so the aircon will be free which is a bonus. But its not about that, because im something of a lizard anyway. Its for the heating reduction. Itll probably bring us down to about 2k kwh, most of it cheap rate (which is the same rate as gas now, roughly, but still wasnt much more than gas before it spiked). My £200 monthly bill before standing charge would drop to nearer £50. Less, if its a particularly sunny winter. The payback period would be about 20 years still, but id have £150 extra a month to play with.
But i dont have the upfront cash, an no grants to bring in reach. Meantime im spewing copious quantities of co2 put my house daily every winter no matter how balanced i get the condensing boiler argh!!!!
A2a with no grant is slightly less for me than a2w with a grant. I cant afford either (because the solar/battery/water tank has already all been paid for put my own pocket) *why* can we not get them for a2a??
Thank god i did get the solar and battery because i couldnt have paid my energy bills last year without, but the price rises have wiped out any monthly "savings" i was going to make, which i was going to use for a2a.
I know im still super privileged to be in the position im in but this last piece of the puzzle would make SO much difference to me, and if adopted widely for properties with solar would reduce water use, gas use, co2 output, and heat deaths by a noticeable amount. Its just crazy that its not on the cards.
Crazy it is, we need options not just one heat pump solution A2A should be on grant scheme of boiler being removed
A 3 way minispilt shouldnt be more than 3500? With 314 saved a year thats aprox 12 years. Dependig on no price or regularitory changes.
Ironnically, you if you scaled up the system (ie the 2kw larger outdoor unit) you could have done away with the log burning and saving even more. Although that would have been imported electricity. But your logs cost almost 2x all the electricity.
Nah you've not understood how these work , bigger outdoor unit would add nothing and 3500 might've worked 5 years ago but not today
Hey, I may have misunderstood this - but if most of your £86 cost is actually related to your car (£56), then your like for like “house + hot water heating” cost savings is far greater than what you mentioned and so your payback could be much less…
No I seperated that cost out
£86 is just heating
Not complaining at £56 for 7 months of car fuel either of course
I am thinking of Mixergy water heater, infrared heaters and solar panels. I was originally having wet underfloor heating in family room and ASHP but don't think it will work now and perhaps is not the right choice anymore. I am a bit scared going all electric. Our roof is east and west facing. Towels heaters are a great call. What are your thoughts on this combination?
Towel heaters and infrared are working great for us as a combo , sometimes both on , sometimes just the towel rail
Looks good but how much did the entire system in your house cost £20-30k.
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Whats your view on annual service Nigel? Im getting a few mixed messages but the consistent advice seems to be that its required to keep the warranty valid. Wondered if you had a quote for your 3?
It is for warranty and it's really only a filter clean but the water extraction pipes need cleaning otherwise mould will build up etc.
Servicing isn't an issue if it's sensibly priced imo
Please can I ask if you have also updated the insulation in your house?
No it's a standard 2000s house with decent double glazing . Loft insulation isn't great to be honest it needs another layer as it's been broken up, moved and pulled away for every job that needed loft access. Another job on the list to add insulation . I've also discovered wall insulation is patchy , shoddy builders skimping it seems . Not sure how to fix that as it's random where insulation is missing . Need a spy camera in the calls but that means drilling holes . Might clad one wall as a solution but I guess I'm at a good starting point already given how warm the house feels
Impressive results.
As the log fire is your biggest financial liability, is the least efficient as well as being the worst for the environment have you any plans to remove & replace that burdon with something more environmentally friendly and financially viable?
To be honest our A2A has replaced it now. Toshiba units are more than capable so it's just a choice now and a case of weaning ourselves off the fires.
Wondering if a candle shrine around the stove might help.
Plan is to reduce before stopping but it's only a matter of time
How about the fireplace CZcams channel on a 4k TV 😂
Different sort of audience wanting to watch fires , I think
Wow, your wood is cheap, we paid £240 for 1.17 ms. Will have to look for a better deal. Great update on your system, which will assist a lot of people.
We buy mixed wood, some soft some hard, it's all sustainably felled locally. Trees coming down anyway
There are several errors in the calculation. £550 used to be the cost of your heating during a heating season. With the new system it is £236. Difference, i.e. the saving: £314. It cost £5250 to build the new system. Payback based on these figures: 16.7 years.
Some people say wall units are good for cooling but just warm up the ceiling in heating mode. Do you think a floor standing inverter would be better idea for this use or do you think newer wall units are good enough at directing the heat downwards?
Those some people are just wrong wrong wrong . It heats beautifully
vents point down not up
Ive got solar and battery storage only 8kwh of storage. Ive got a 3 bedroom detached house very similar style to yours.
Im thinking of just adding 1 x 2.5kwh for my lounge which is approx 11 x 15 ft with open stair case to upstairs. I like you are wanting to mainly use the energy from my battery's off peak and not pay for peak figure's, so reason i was thinking of just getting 1 small 2.5kwh system to heat the main room ie my living room , think the running costs of 2.5kwh system shoukd be about 600 / 800 watts when running ??
Have you checked that not heating certain rooms isn't using just as much as heating them, due to heat drifting from room to room?
I have and it's not,heating rooms you don't use is daft unless your home renders those rooms so cold it causes damp.
Be sensible
Does the A2A system need servicing & how much is it , or is it a DIY filtered clean ? Do you have away on knowing what COP /SCOP you achieved?
About £65 I believe
Scop is hard to determine . I've actually just switched off from it. I only need to know my watts, kwhs and £££
I trust the units are the most efficient I could get 2+ scop in winter 5+ in summer
@@EVPuzzle Thanks When time comes & if you have it, a short video about the servicing would be appreciated ..
So if saved 500l of heating oil thats 5000Kwh , Divide that by 1312 ( your heating energy?) gives a SCOP of 3.8 ? Have I missed anything ?
Cleaning the filters is very easy. If you have pets you may need to do it more than the manual recommends but it’s a 5 minute job running them under the kitchen tap. I had a yearly contract on mine for maintenance check but the technician never found a problem in 5 years.
Yes and £45 per unit.
Servicing video coming soon . It hardly looks like a serious requirement but warranty wise you'll want to
Is the Air to Air system effective at heating rooms the unit isn't in? If you leave doors open does the heat move around well? For example if you have your A2A unit's on will Charlotte get any benefit or does she always have to use her own radiator regardless of whether your units are on?
Very well. Fan direction and speed really helps
My battery should be getting installed very soon. The next item for me will be heating.
I'm keen on A2A (microbore currently), but my wife is concerned about it drying the air. Have you noticed that at all?
I've also heard there are some A2A systems that will also heat the water tank & so attract the Govt £5k grant. Do you know anything about that?
No it only dehumidifies in AC mode not heating mode
Informative video. Thanks! Do you ever find it stuffy with air-air? Just wondering what the air quality is like compared to a wet system and radiators (which can obviously be a bit stuffy too!)
Quite the opposite, it's much less stuffy than with radiators on.
House feels fresher with it on, slightly drier too but not overly so just slightly
How much have all these renewables cost you to install? I have had an Airsource heat pump for 9 years which has been great but now thinking of maybe adding solar. My current total electricity usage is 7000kwh for hot water heating and all other electricity usage for tvs, washing machine etc. I have no gas except the hib in the kitchen lol
Friend just put 8.4kw pv and 10kwh battery in for £13k, think I paid more overall
236 to 550 is 314 pounds saved, right?
Thanks for the vid at the moment I'm just using plyontech batteries 15kw at the moment. I'll be adding solor at some point this year and one more battery.
So at the moment I use infrared panels that work for me when I'm at home. But I have been hearing alot about your solution. Do you have details on install and model for the air 2 air conditioner
Details are in the video descriptions. I've done 2 or 3 videos on this now which cove the models and specs etc.
Also, Try googling Toshiba multi split aircon and Toshiba Haori.
Toshiba aren't the only supplier, mitsubishi was a close 2nd for me
Can anyone recommend an air to air installer in Northern Ireland?
We are having some cheaper Samsung units fitted, mainly for A/C but I'm keen to see how well they do at heating. My main concern is how well the heat will distribute around the house from only a few units.
I have a Toshiba system with 4 indoor units downstairs and only run two which heat downstairs and upstairs. If I set the temp in the open plan lounge upstairs bedrooms will run two degrees lower, obviously with the bedroom doors open. Air to air forced draught distributes heat far differently to radiators using convection. A lot of people fit a compressor with a spare way as an insurance for future proofing the system which in reality will only incur a small cost compared to the cost of an installation.
do you do payback calculation when your boiler goes pop and you install a new one? no - its maintenance. I think you should take a similar approach
i spent all my savings on solar a Powerwall and and EV so now when i get my monthly pension its all my so im saving again , living alone helps .
Living alone also means just you to blame for leaving things on by accident 😉😄
@@EVPuzzle i think with the £7.5 grant now itll be worth it for me .
Very useful.
I cant help noticing that your electric costs are still based on old world prices !! Next year may be a diferent picture !
You just need to stop burning trees now Nigel 👍 Any plans for that?
We've halved our consumption so on the way.. Blocking it up might save some heat too
What’s your opinion on solar storage heaters?
Same issue as the old ones, insulation and control over heat release. They've improved but not by much and of course in winter we don't get much solar so it's overnight charging for daytime release
A2A is a much better system
@@EVPuzzle Thanks! I am
On the fence about an open circuit ground source heat pump or air to air. Keen on a private water source as well as a hybrid ground source boiler….but the borehole digging costs are eye watering!
A2A seems like a solid option!
Ground source with a huge bore hole is good for best efficiency in winter etc but £25k is scary without good grants and you're still left with a bigger pumping needs so more overhead. Unless it's a huge property ground source seems ott
where can you buy Toshiba in the USA?
Google?
Remember to notify your DNO after Heat Pump installation as it's a DNO Requirement.
Ours wasn't notified by the Installer, so I had to do it myself while we were installing a second 22kW ev charger.
The DNO refused to upgrade our 3 Phase to 100 Amps per phase... without new cabling, a 200 Amp Industrial cutout (which wouldn't have fitted in the meter box).
So we had to stick with 80 Amps per phase... which is now at maximum load on their approval calculations... 😢
The two 22kW ev chargers, two Powerwalls, Heat Pump and 7kW ev charger scared them to death 😂😊
We're at other end of the scale with a 7kw EV charger being the biggest potential load and 100a connection
Your useage isn’t normal, you use it very sparingly as you are tight. I understand this but not a good referral tbh
Course it's normal, everyone else just wastes energy and must leave doors and windows open or live in barns🤦♂️
Oh look!
5500/214 = 46 years?
There is a mistake in the calculation. approx. 25 years payback.
The air pollution from log fires is awful, and you have a clean efficient A2A system there just use that and the electric Vs log's prices will be cheaper
I imagine that the air to air is unlikely to be working in 45 years time. Even 25 will be pushing it. Not saying its a bad system.
Eh? There’s no point in something lasting that long, if you’re running a 25 year old boiler you’re wasting more money than if you replaced it!
@@edc1569 I am saying that the system will need renewing so the running costs will be even higher. Eh.
It's not free heating until install is fully paid for
It's free energy, no one adds boiler cost to their gas bills
Nothing is free.
Math matters
I think you are kidding yourself. Nowt is for free.
You mean opportunity cost? Are you concerned about Charlotte's inheritance?
I like how you tried to justify you poor financial investment while saying it did not matter 😄In reality, you simply paid a high price but got the ability to have a/c and reduced your CO2 to do your bit - forget trying to financially justify it.
And just to add, we have had A2A HPs in our house for over 20 years. It was installed to get a/c during the short period needed in our summers. The heating COP is around 3 but gets closer to 1 as the temps go below zero and is efficiently used to heat 1 or 2 individual rooms when he whole house CH is off (e.g. my daughter gets up 3 hours earlier than the rest of us due to shift work). I have never considered trying to justify it as a cost saving though.
Hi Nigel - 11:50 you mention monitoring heating with smartplugs - in your other Toshiba video you said the multisplit doesn't have energy monitoring per individual inside unit, so presumably you're monitoring the A2A as a whole, not per room? Just about to do a similar thing in my house (talking to Graham too!) and was hoping I'd be able to monitor room by room...
If he wired them separately you can put a monitor on each but of course all heat comes from the outside unit