Roller Locking vs Delay: BotR Addendum To Ian's Forgotten Weapons Videos On The Topic
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2024
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Ian's earlier vids: • How Does It Work: Roll... and • How Does It Work: Roll...
Since I had the very interesting book Verschlußsysteme von Feuerwaffen which contains the best diagrammatic representation of the difference between roller delay (e.g. HK G3 rifle) and roller locking (e.g. Vz.52 pistol), I took it upon myself to make a little addendum to Ian of Forgotten Weapons's videos on the subject. - Sport
Sometimes all it takes is a simple diagram, a pointer, and a good description to make the light come on. Thank you very much!
I totally agree Sir. I have watched two animation videos about roller delayed blowback and I just got more confused after watching. In this video as you say, a simple diagram with a very good explanation helped me understand the concept of this roller delayed blowback system almost immediately.
That diagram is beautifully illustrated also. All those beautiful labels are so much finer level of detail than you usually see on Wikipedia or wherever. Looks like a physics textbook.
The force lines through the roller turned on a light for me about how it works! THANKS!
Same here. That together with the movement distances made it really easy for me to understand the "transmission ratio" and friction going on between the bolt and bolt head via the rollers.
Indeed, perhaps it's because I have an engineering background myself (albeit electronic) but a nice technical diagram really did make it all sink in.
@@David-uk3nv Well said. I don't think I'd ever heard of a step ratio being used to describe this mechanism before.
You are the only ONE on the interweb that explained how the delayed system worked. I figured that is how it worked but was trying to confirm it. Also explains why they fluted the chamber. That allows gas pressure to assist the rearward pressure of the cartridge to get the wedge moving rearward. Also can you explain the gap between the bolt and bolt carrier when in battery. My theory is that is how the roller tension is set (True or False). Also when the bolt chambers the round the bolt face should be flush with the barrel chamber (True or False). If not it would affect roller tension or even keep rollers from locking in trunnion. I am in the process of building an Cetme C and I am studying the engineering of the rifle.
GREAT VIDEO!!!!
Thanks
No, the "tension" is only given by the angles in the roller gear. Actually it's not really delaying movement, but gearing down the rearward force. The bolt moves immediately under gas pressure, but only 0.5mm or so, as long as the rollers are in touch with their cavities. When they give in, the bolt carrier is accelerated further. Thanks to the gear, the carrier already moved a longer way than the bolt head. If you had no wedge gear like that, you would need a 11kg bolt carrier to take the force of a 7.62*51 in a non-locking bolt assembly (Uzi: 760g for a 9X19). If the bolt carrier and bolt head would not have a gap in battery, the force could travel directly rearward, and the rollers would be bypassed. With a bolt mass below 11kg, as a G3 rifle has, that would destroy the rifle. Actually the G3 bolt assembly is relatively prone to wear. On some worn-out old rifles the gap is almost closed. This was always one thing Bundeswehr gunsmiths hat to take care of to prevent the older rifles from breaking during training. At least that's what Peter Dannecker, author of the book shown in this video, tells during his lectures. Latest edition of the book above, from 2017, has three times the pages as the edition shown here, btw. Dannecker added many new weapons over the years and I heard he is already writing the next edition, although he retired from service several years ago and could go fishing instead.
I'd absolutely love to see lever delayed covered in this book. Ian's vids are good but I like the additional 5 minutes of explanation. The diagram helps reinforce the understanding.
It's covered pretty well - I can do that!
I agree, it's my favourite action
Agreed!
@@BlokeontheRange that would be awesome definitely subbed!!
@@BUZZKILLJRJR czcams.com/video/DGctMiCvD3A/video.html
Love this explanation so much. I've seen so many other explanations saying the bolt face "can't move" until the rollers clear the recess, but that is not the case. The gear reduction ratio really made this click for me: the bolt face IS moving, but at a reduced rate because of the slopes. Thank you!
Yeah I found Ian's description to be somewhat confusing.
"Can't move" is true of roller _locking,_ pretty much by definition - a delay is something that will give if you put enough pressure on it, a lock is something that won't and requires the input of some other part of the system (such as the user's right arm in bolt-action rifles, which are inherently locked-breech).
I love this book, an very interesting thing is, that Peter Dannecker opposes the use of "Verzögert" (~Delayed) to describe the Cetme, G3, MP5 action, but favors "Übersetzt" (~Translatet, Transmitted) instead. According to him "Verzögert" (~Delayed) should be used for actions were the bolt head is not moving at the beginning, but its movement only starts after some time has gone. The Cetme, G3, MP5 actions are "Übersetzt" (~Translatet, Transmitted) because a bolt head movement is taking place at the beginning, but this movement of the bolt head is transmitted to the bolt carrier, slowing the bolt head movement down.
Dannecker explains this on page 594 on the 4. reworked edition.
He translated it as "geared" -> gearing in the video, which should be the correct translation of "übersetzt" in this case. It is a "Übersetzung" like you have in a gearbox.
Actually in the manual of the G 3 ( TDV ) it is also explained as translated and not as delayed ( - übersetzter Massenverschluß ) . Of cause it has to be translated because the gases would have escaped before the empty case has been fully extracted. Otherwise the empty case would have been pushed in again- not enough distance - before the bolt has traveled far enough to extract the empty one and feed a new one ... Must have a look what they have written in the manual of my H& K P9S, should have it somewhere ...
@@heikopanzlaff3789 Were can I find this manual?
That cleared it up for me to no end. It's deceptively simple yet incredibly clever. Now you've got me scribbling free-body diagrams in my notebook, you rotter.
Thankfully this video is short, I am sooooooooo behind of my online school lectures at the moment. BotR always comes before school.
Same
well if this doesn't count as maths or physics I don't know what does.
Mister The Geoff too bad I study economics so firearm mechanics don’t really apply to my field XD
Thank you. After watching Ian’s explanation I was still a bit confused. After thinking about it for a further 10-15 minutes, I thought I had figured it out. After watching your explanation, I’m now certain!
Glad it was helpful!
I would love to read an English equivalent of this book.
Chinn's the machine gun is probably the closest. For a more engineering based approach flinn's firearm design book 1 and 2
@@DanielSmith-ui4gr googled that and didnt find anything?
Glad to have stumbled across this, as a "various locking systems" firearm collector in USA.
I'm quite curious where the anecdote of the high-speed camera accidental discovery was sourced.
However, many of these are out-of-production (and inaccessible to commoners due to either cost or regulations).
So history/records/engineering drawings is all we have! Thanks for sharing.
Very cool segment. I love the added engineering depth on this topic (finally).
Simple clear illustrations and an explanation to match. Thank you.
Thank you very much for this book presentation, this book is a must to have for me !
Very well elucidated Mr. Bloke. Now, my knowledge is complete. Much obliged I'm sure.
Enjoyed that. There’s nothing like a simple line drawing to make something clear and understandable.
Thank you for visually explaining the difference, this makes a lot more sense now.
Thank you! After watching Ian’s video I still didn’t quite understand how roller-delayed systems work. This clears it all up :)
Very interesting and helpful. Coming from an engineering background reading diagrams like this is like reading German or English. Much easier to understand than weird 3D models.
Great video. Perfectly explained. Thank you BOTR
This is the best and most simple explanation of roller delayed blowback I've seen. Thank you!
This will make a fine addition to my collection.
Mais quelle heureuse coïncidence, je dois justement résumer le fonctionnement d'une culasse de 57 pour un projet. Ces schémas vont m'être extremement utiles. Merci et excellente présentation!
Thank you for this! Ian's presentation was wonderful, as usual, but he was a little vague on what causes the bolt carrier to move. This clears it up nicely.
Love the roller delay. Especially the thunk of the breech closing.
Having watched I can only conclude that, indeed, gun Jezus wasn't German enough about this topic.
Too French, although having watched Ians FAMAS G2 vid I found out that the French adopted the HK 416 rifle, when the Manufacture d'Armes de Saint-Etienne (MAS) factory closed in 2002, no more domestic rifles could be made.
a very welcome and clear explanation of the difference between the two systems, really highlight the simple difference between the two systems
the principles seems very similar to those used by CMMG in their Banshee PCC, which is little more than a modification of the Armalite bolt system.
Love my roller delay guns, interesting to see it making a bit of a come back with some modern guns.
Thank you for showing me exactly how much of a nerd I am. Loved the video.
This is a very useful addendum, thank you
Perfect timing. I just got a CZ 52, and was playing with it to see how the rollers work. Based on this I figured it's truly locked. Thank you!
It is roller locked short recoil unlocked not roller delayed. 👍
Two very interesting systems.... got a CZ 52 pistol because it was RL....and they were cheap at the time. Cool how a small change allows a big change. Nice book...the engineering secrets revealed is fascinating.
As always an amazing informative video thanks
"proper nerdy engineering book" sounds like half my library 🤣
shame i can't find a english translation of this!
Extremely interesting! Thank you.
Splendid video!
"Down gearing system." Genius, I can understand this. I have been thinking it was all part of the black arts this whole time.
And then Evan Jones made a gun where it literally gears down.
I finally understand!
3:52 lol we did actually have CAD software in1991 . Many thanks for the excellent engineering explanation :)
Dannecker clearly didn't though! :D
What an interesting book.
Thank you
Good stuff!
How to view an engineering diagram. The part with the slanted lines is a solid chunk that is like you cut through a psrt and everything else are parts you didn't cut or an opening. So basically if you were imagining that you cut receiver and half to look at the insides, the portion that you cut would be the slanted lines so like the sides of the receiver walls. If you cut through a pin to look at the insides and also the receiver it would still be an outline to represent that it's a different part but also the slanted lines to represent you cut through it. In this case we are imagining that we cut through the bolt. I should also mention you don't have to perfectly make a straight line cut on a part. You can actually make the cut jagged to represent different parts. In this example they didn't cut through the locking surfaces they represent them as if they were solid which if you were to cut perfectly straight then it would cut through it.
I had the ohnor to have a short talk with Mr. Dannecker, he seemed cool, very inteligent and logic-gifted guy, he is mainly a mathematician and calculous engineer, all his gun related works are very mechanic and reduced to the necessary bits for underastanding, very intuative and highly recommendable.... only his definitions of a case as a gas piston on blowback guns was, even if logic, kinda weird... he uses more mechanical words for gun parts than most other more gun specific autors
He's right though - the case acts as a piston in a blowback system. If any form of gas action is used for operation, whether it be convention gas operation, direct impingement or some form of blowback, there's ALWAYS something acting as a piston and something acting as a cylinder, one of which is moving and the other is stationary. In the case of blowback, the chamber is the cylinder, the case is the piston.
@@BlokeontheRange Of corse i know he is right, i have previously calculated boltface force for locked rifles and kinematic calculous for unlocked delayed systems , just that he calls straight blowback a directly gas operated system
It just sounds extraordinarily different to the usually used therms in my enviroment
Most people who write about these things simply haven't thought that deeply about it :)
@@BlokeontheRange I had the idea lately that blowback-operated could actually work for caseless if you just had the bolt face telescope out and follow the round into the chamber (like an advance primer ignition bolt). In the light of that it makes sense to think of blowback as involving a piston. In fact, in this case, you would even want piston rings on it...
R Blake Stevens on page one of Full Circle says so, too.
Wow, you really are an engineer.
I've got MEng (hons) after my name an'all! :D
Very nice explanation. One small correction - the effective mass "seen" by the bolt face goes as the mechanical advantage ratio SQUARED. (so 25x the effective mass in your example). This is because BOTH the acceleration relation AND the force relation have a factor of the advantage ratio in them.
Nope. If you draw it out and set up the equations just using a simple lever à la FAMAS to make life easier and then reduce the model to an equivalent simple linear one looking at what the point of application "sees", it's simply M(effective) = M(nominal).(lever ratio). And F=m.a so... I'm not seeing where you think there's a square term coming from... You can even look at it in terms of conservation of impulse (force x distance) and you get exactly the same result.
@@BlokeontheRange I think you mean conservation of energy (force x distance) as impulse would be the integral of force over time. If the front of the bolt moves by x distance then the portion which is subject to the mechanical ratio moves by ratio*x. But this also must mean (by conservation of energy) that the force transmitted to the faster-moving portion is F/ratio. So an applied force F on the slower part, translates to a force of F/ratio on the faster part, producing an acceleration of F/(M(nominal) * ratio). If we translate this back to the acceleration of the slower part, we get (1/ratio) * F / (M(nominal) * ratio) or accel=F/(M(nominal) * ratio ^2). If we recast this as F=M(effective) * accel, then M(effective)= ratio ^2 * M(nominal). This is a very well known result for rotary motion where mass moment of inertia is transformed by the gear ratio squared.
Energy is not conserved in such a system, which is why we have the concept of the energy efficiency of a mechanical system. Momentum is. But you don't need to go anywhere near movement, cos you can solve it statically. Seriously. Just draw it out and stop trying to over-complicate it. We're not doing rotary motion here (where squares can indeed creep in). The simple question is, for a mass M at a lever arm L, what is the equivalent mass for a 1-dimensional system? It's simply M.L...
@@BlokeontheRange We're talking about effective mass due to acceleration, right? Not static force due to gravity. The situation here (roller delaying) is inherently dynamic, involving inertia reflected through a mechanical advantage.
@@BlokeontheRange Sure, let's look at the simple lever. Let's say it's set up so that the distance from A to the fulcrum is 1 meter and from the fulcrum to B is 2 meters. If I push A forward by 10cm, B moves by 20cm. If I accelerate A at 1m/s^2, I will accelerate B at 2m/s^2. If I have 1kg at B, the force required to accelerate B at 2m/s^2 will be 2 newtons. But to apply 2 newtons to B requires 4 newtons to be applied at A. So to my hand, point A "feels" like a mass of 4 kg, not 2 kg. Conservation of momentum has no meaning in this system because there is only one real mass, so there's no transfer of momentum from one mass to another.
I discovered your channel about a year ago and for whatever reason I didn’t subscribe at the time. My bad. I have now realized my error and subbed.
Midnight nerdy bloke is my fav
In his lectures Dannecker states that Uziel Gal (born 1923 as Gotthard Glas in Weimar, Germany), the inventor of the Uzi SMG, was his mentor. Maybe that's where his clarity and simplicity of depiction - without leaving out important things - come from.
I’m a little late but this is an awesome video.
That is a nice book you have there! Calculating on the firearms is exactly what i am still missing. I am drawing an AR10 right now from the AR15 blueprints, and i am scaling things up to fit in the upper- and lower receiver, and the bolt group. Same tolerances used. But i am lacking on the mathematics. I am sure the gun would function if it were to be made. So if i want to design a gun "from scratch", i can maybe calculate the forces on the barrel and the parts. If i get my hands on this book that is. :)
When you are a reloader you know how much PSI a cartridge can handle, and thus you can calculate the forces involved. I am new to reloading like doing wise, but on reading i am quite advanced, ive read books about it, also books about converting cartridges to other obsolete calibers. And i am working on being able to make brass cartridges and bullets from sheet brass/copper. So i am really in a collecting frenzy to get all the books i might ever need to make everything work on paper. So it will work in real life when it is the time for that. I hope that i will finish my "brass making video" before fall. So i can maybe work on my youtube channel. It is nothing much now (only a video about wax coating cotton garment to make it water resistant), but maybe it will become interesting before next year when i have something going on.
Greetings,
Jeff
So I ordered the book. :) If you like to know more about how to make gunbarrels and guns themselves you can contact me. I dont know if there is a chat function on youtube. But ive got tons of books about this subject. Its a collection that i started about 2 years ago. Or if you like 3d cad programs, you can come take a look at my drawings: grabcad.com/a.b-430/models. (sorry but it feels a bit like im pushing my stuff down your throat, but i think you might like it)...
@@jeffjefferson2676 you have peaked my curiosity sir but I must ask does it include polygonal rifling and what edition the particular book you ordered?
@@gnomemcshroom7476 I ordered the book he is reviewing. Its handy to see how it all works. The game "world of guns, gun disassembly" is also a cool game if you want to see how guns exactly work. So if you have both the book and the game, and the blueprints, you get how things really function! :D And i have a large collection of firearms blueprints!! I will scan my single shot rifle blueprints soon, because i bought that, and they are not online yet. So that will come in the near future.
Any way, some good books on (button)rifling is: "Gunsmithing and Tool Making Bible By Harold Hoffman", and his other book on making a button rifling machine. Yes you can get polygonal rifling with that, as long as you can cut the button the right way. Now for my full research on all the books, including my findings i got by emailing with the president of Drill Master Eldorado Tool gundrill company. Check out the grabcad page with all the gundrills and buttons. Just make an account and download my projects. Also get a(n) (illegal) copy of Solid Works. And check it out. It is worth the while, i put in a lot of hours/days into the research, and im convinced you can make top of the notch gunbarrels/ammunition with my research and all the included books.
Also the chamber reamer stop is something you really want to have when making barrels. Its the best tool out there for manual barrel reaming!
Now i did not upload the heattreating kiln yet. Because i stil did not write a good program for it. I did talk to people with knowledge about heating elements and using solid state relays; you want to have the heating element to heat up fast or cool down fast, but once it gets close the the temperature you want to attain, you want to relay to start to go on and off either shorter or longer, depending on the temperature going up or down. You dont want to over or undershoot your temperature goal. Now any way, you can do that with a solid state relay you cant use a normal relay. Using an arduino you can switch things on or off as fast as the frequency of the crystal that is on the board. Thats 16000 times each second. So you can really make a precise instrument with those things combined. They said something about differentiating, so that you get a 0 reading on the differentiation of the temperature curve, so you keep a constant temperature when you reach your temperature goal. Now i dont know about how to write the arduino text for that just yet. But now you know what to look for. It should be doable.
Greetings,
Jeff
Thanks to Ian and the Bloke, Peter Dannecker's publisher ought to finance an English translation of "Verschlusssysteme von Feuerwaffen", particularly the revised and extended 4th edition which has color illustrations that are easier for non-engineers to comprehend. Are you social media savvy, DWJ Publishing? There's money to be made, I think.
I have the 4th ed here in my hands. Only color page is the title page. Inside all drawings are exactly like in the video. Just three times as many weapons are covered.
After seeing this, I went and opened my safe to say good morning to my G3 and StGw-57's...
Just subscribed, brilliant little channel! Watched a few videos and all of them are fascinating. Do you by any chance live in Switzerland??
Yes I do
Bloke on the Range Sorry for the slow reply, been extremely busy with work! That’s brilliant though, do you prefer it more than home? I was thinking of visiting (after Covid-19 dies down.) Can unlicensed civilians pay for range time? :)
That book looks awesome
There should be an english translation
@Bloke on the Range Does the CMMG radial delay system work by an analogous principle to the roller delay system with the angled flanges on its bolt carrier?
Yes. But I reject CMMG's term "radial" cos there's nothing acting radially, it's rotary: czcams.com/video/JG6L6QrnYZA/video.html
@@BlokeontheRange Karl Maier would have called it 'semi-rigid rotating bolt'. This is a good term.
On the top one, the locking one, what pushes the bolt back on an hk93 since it doesn’t have a gas piston?
HK rifles are roller delayed, like the lower picture, not roller locked.
I need an english version of that book
the book looks very interesting, anyone Know if it has been translated or if there is a good english equivilant?
I'm looking for the same thing, buddy
Very informative and interesting vid, thanks bloke. Just curious, what engineering did u do? I'm thinking of doing aerospace (in last year of highschool now (in Australia)) any opinions for or against that?
Neither the Bloke, nor really an engineer (studied Physics and worked in Materials Scinence for a couple of years), but I'd not specialize too early (which, in my case, was one of the arguments of choosing physics over engineering). You might come across some really intresting stuff you'd never have considered otherwise (it was solid state physics for me) and you've got more options if you want to stay in Australia (I'm assuming here, but Australia isn't exactly known for its huge aerospace industry) or Aerospace doesn't work out for some reason.
I'd try to find a University with a good aerospace programme (possibly also exchange programmes), start with plain mechanical engineering and go from there.
It depends a lot on how sure you are what you really want. If you definetly want aerospace, even if it means sitting somewhere in Germany of France, designing tiolet bowls for Airbus for years on end (know a guy who did that), then the answer is different than if you want to be an engineer anf find planes and rockets kinda neat.
In the end, I think, it doesn't matter how easy it is to find a good job with your degree if you don't care enough to finish it and it doesn't matter too much what your degree is in if you're passionate enough to actually learn something instead of just passing exams.
I did a general course that was accredited by the IMechE and IEE irrespective of what options I took. I ended up taking a lot of chemical engineering (although didn't get accredited for that cos I did a mechanical 4th year project) cos it was interesting, I was good at it and mostly cos the lecturers were actually good teachers...
If you're sure you know what you want to do, go for it. At 18 I was sure I wanted to do electrical engineering, which wasn't the way I went at uni or afterwards and had I ended up at a different uni I'd have been doing electrical engineering, which with hindsight would have been a mistake. If you can find something broad that lets you specialise later, go for that.
@@BlokeontheRange pretty much all the engineering courses here have a general 1st year and then you choose your speciality in the 2nd, so I can at least wait a year before having to choose
Slight correction here - you said that if the gearing ratio between the bolt head and the carrier is 1:5, it makes the bolt "appear" 5 times heavier. Due to the quirks of kinetic energy, it's actually much higher than that. Assuming that the speed the bolt head is going is 1 to simplify things for example, and a nice round 100 grams for the bolt head and 100 grams for the bolt carrier, in a straight blowback system where it's just a solid bolt of 200 grams, the kinetic energy is 1/2 mass times velocity squared. So, 100 grams x 1 squared, or 100. In the roller delayed system with a 100 gram bolt head and a 100 gram bolt carrier and a gearing ratio of 5 - so that for every millimeter the bolt head moves, the carrier moves 5 - the energy needed is 50 (half of the bolt head) x 1 squared plus 50 (half of the bolt carrier) x 5 squared. So, 1300, a 13 times increase in the inertia needed to open the bolt.
In actual firearms the gearing ratios are usually between 2 and 3. Incidentally, the apparent inertia is only higher until the rollers have forced the bolt carrier back because if it applied for the entirety of the working cycle of the firearm it would (apart from the carrying weight) have all the disadvantages of a heavier bolt, including needing a heavier recoil spring etc.
It's not a question of kinetic energy... For every mm moved, the energy required to move it is simply force x distance but we don't even need to go there: it's just a question of forces and Newton's laws, try drawing a force diagram and resolving the forces then doing F=M.a (F being the same in each case and resolving for a).
@@BlokeontheRange Don't forget the linkage is also transmitting force from the bolt into the frame, reducing the impulse transmitted into the carrier.
Tango Mike Sir!!
Was there ever an English version published?
It’s nice seeing this laid out in a well done illustration. Does the roller lock posses a performance or manufacturing advantage over a rotating lug design in a full size rifle or mg application, ie the MG3/42?
HerrHornPlayer In theory yes, you don’t need to make the extra parts needed for gas or recoil operation. In practice making a roller delay that works (and is reasonably durable) is hard enough that the guns using that system usually weigh and cost about the same as gas operated firearms.
Brian Smith-Winsemius I was thinking about the roller locking, not roller delayed. To my non engineering eye the roller lock is a evolution of the flapper locking designs. The advantages and disadvantages of roller delayed vs a locked breech vs simple blowback seem a bit more straightforward.
No, which is really why they're out of favour for rotating bolts or BAR-type swinging links, which are far simpler to produce.
@@BlokeontheRange BAR system is favoured? What gun uses it?
I think there would be savings at design time rather than in manufacturing or in use - I can see no need for anti-preëngagement in roller locking.
So it's essentially acting as a lever, but because the lever is a cylinder, there are multiple points at which it can act against the carrier, depending on the geometry of the carrier and the housing for the roller. Wild.
a picture paints a thousand words .....
I am 20 seconds in the video and I am looking googling were I can get a copy of I book I have never heard of before
Same here 🤣🤣
Did you find it ?
@@ABO3LYY it's on eBay
Is this book sold in English? I’m really wanting it if so!
i know this is a while ago, but when used in a pistol does the rollers then allow for a lighter spring because they take some of the force out of the equation or what benefits does this type provide over the typical browning lockup ?
It allows for a lighter spring than straight blowback, and is an alternative to a typical Browning lockup. But you'll note that the market is dominated by Browning lockup pistols and delayed blowback are rare.
@@BlokeontheRange That was a quick response, thank you so much! I had a feeling that would be the case, thank you so much for confirming, and yes i have noticed one is more common then the other 😊
Roller locking uses the inability to move due to the carrier having linear cuts preventing movement of the bolt itself.
Roller delayed uses the aspect of mechanical disadvantage to cause the bolt to move a minimum distance while having the carrier move at least double or more the distance the bolt itself travels to reduce pressure to safe levels before extraction.
Both are very innovative when it comes to firearms and need to see more research put into them in all honesty because what can be done with them is quite amazing pressure wise and size wise of a firearm.
Hey are you going at Finnish brutality 2020? Would be nice to organize a team from Switzerland!
Awesome video! I have a question - why aren't long and short recoil operating mechanisms used anymore? Short recoil in particular seems like such an elegant system?
I would imagine those systems are somewhat susceptible to crud getting around the interface between the barrel and it's casing. As that increases the friction and force required to cycle.
So when you get something like mud around it you can get in the situation where you firing the cartridge does not impart enough momentum on the system to move it back with the increased friction. Additionally, if you look at something like the chauchat (long recoil) you can see a large amount of mass jostling back and forth, which is maybe not all that pleasant to feel as you basically have the bolt+barrel slamming backwards and then in 2 parts forwards again.
One problem is the barrel rattling around inside the front bearing. It can never be as accurate as a fixed barrel.
But most pistols still use short recoil (Browning) -and long recoil- or no lock at all.
On rifles, because you have to move the entire barrel in a short recoil system. That has some downsides (entry for crud, changes in barrel weight from suppressors etc). Gas operation lets you keep the barrel in place and avoid all that faff.
On pistols, it's the reverse - fitting a gas system in place is challenging due to the small size, so short recoil operation is still very common.
And pistols have a fraction of the inherent accuracy of rifles, so aren't anywhere near as sensitive to things like moving barrels - you've got 2 layers of slop there in a Browning-type dropping barrel - barrel to slide (minimised by forcing the rear of the barrel upwards) and slide to frame, which is significant. But aside from custom gunmakers, nobody is attempting to build even a 4 MOA semiauto combat pistol.
@@BlokeontheRange Thanks so much!
Enjoy your channel
The case is sitting against the carrier and bolt head. What makes the carrier move if both the case and the bolt head are not moving?
Pressure from the rollers on the angled surface of the central locking piece .
The case is not sitting against the carrier. It's sitting against the bolt head. In roller-delayed blowback, the bolt head moves. The rollers make the carrier move at a greater velocity than the bolt head. In the case of roller-locked, something else makes the carrier move with respect to the bolthead (either a gas system or a recoil system). Nothing I've written here wasn't said in the video ;)
@@snowflakemelter1172 Now I see it. Thx
Heya,, I know this is unrelated to the topic of the video but I was wondering about the no.3 bolt head for the le enfield, I have one and it's quite exotic,, I search up bolt heads on google search engine to find "0" bolt heads and stuff but I never see the no.3 bolt head
It's nominally the longest one, but due to tolerancing (and occasional hand-fitting of used ones) there's actually an overlap in the size ranges.
@@BlokeontheRange thank you!
How does A unlock? Presumably A needs a gas system tied to the locking piece thru a piston? I can see how B unlocks thru the force vectoring of the rollers to the ramped surfaces of the locking piece but A seems hopelessly jammed up without a piston pushing. I could see it working off of recoil force but I imagine that could be quite fussy...for instance if you clamp the gun in a perfectly rigid frame then A never gets to accelerate to the point of having any momentum.
I think I explained it that A requires something else to retract the carrier, whether it be gas op or a recoil based system.
@@BlokeontheRangeyeah gas pistol makes sense. Any recoil based situation would have to rely on the weapon moving under recoil given the locking piece. I have an SP5, was curious how the roller delayed actually worked.
That looks like a fantastic book, any chance there’s an English translation version of it?
Unfortunately not, to my knowledge.
Well dang, that looked like a great book for someone who’s an engineer and firearm enthusiast like my self.
@@BlokeontheRange There are more recent German editions, but none in English so far. I think Mr Dannecker is not going to translate it himself, but he might be open to have a translation made, if someone turns up who is good with languages and understands gun mechanics as well. I could ask him via E-Mail about is opinion, but I fear a few youtube comments would not sufficiently prove the need for an English edition.
Where can I buy said book?
The latest edition is on amazonDOTde, but still German-only.
cool
Wish there was a similar book in English or French that I could dig into to follow along.
Chinn’s The Machine Gun is 5 volumes of gun nerd information. Available online as a .pdf
MEAN arms has a prototype going like this
Get the latest edition. It's about three times the pages.
My daddy says You invented the Chitty Chitty bang bang Car.
Bloke sold out the book on amazon...
Hi, does it have an "english" version for us non-Deutsche reading pheasants?
Nope, unfortunately...
is this book available in English
Ah, der Dannecker, es gibt ja mittlerweile auch eine neue Auflage die etwas anders aussieht. Jedenfalls empfehlenswert.
Und dreimal so viele Seiten hat.
Is anyone going to Translate that into Esperanto?
I guess I'm still confused. Forcing the ligher carrier to move e.g. 5 times faster (since acceleration is 5 times higher) than the bolt is okay, but the impulse will remain the same-ish. Wouldn't it be better to combine the A and B principles? Like, bolt head travels "s" pushing the bolt carrier (perhaps, also with force disadvantage), and then gets locked by rollers. I.e. the bolt no longer transfers any force to the carrier. The carrier keeps moving by inertia after that initial kick, unlocks rollers, allows the bolt to follow.
Congratulations, you've just re-invented the "hesitation lock" which is so successful it doesn't usually appear in standard texts nor in many commercial designs ;)
@@BlokeontheRange thanks for clarification. Indeed, it looks like the principle is the same as in R51.
I'm still hopeful there's more for us to (re)invent, no matter how successful and plentiful particular commercial designs were before.
Are you aware of an English translation/equivalent of that book?
No, sorry
@@BlokeontheRange time to brush up on my German then I guess. At least the maths and diagrams are universal
All the variables have the same letters, luckily, so at least the language of mathematics is universal :)
@@BlokeontheRangeTrue. But Bloke is bi-lingual, and thus could be published as a translator...
@@BlokeontheRange and I'd buy it too
So which is better?
Neither. They're just different.
Yes but how does it work? Hahaha jk jk amazing video!
In short, Roller locked and Roller delayed are the same except: the resting position of the rollers- flat surfaces on the RL vs the curbed ones on the RD and the bolt carrier being slightly further away from The bolt head in RD.
Ian said that these systems tend to get very Dirty, maybe more so than direct impingement or piston-driven guns. He also said that they’re not friendly for suppressors. Do you know why?
Bolt carrier can be wherever you want it in either case.
Roller-delayed systems get very dirty cos an awful lot of gas comes back into the action since it's opening at fairly high pressure, and it's that gas that's driving it. Not friendly for suppressors cos they change the residual pressure curve, lengthening it cos they present resistance to gas escape from the muzzle (which is how they suppress), leading to higher residual pressure during the extraction cycle and even more gas coming back into the action.
So it creates gas overpressure. Does prolonged suppressor use on these guns become potentially catastrophic?
I’ve had people tell me that the G3 and similiar guns destroy brass and make them practically unreloadable. True or false?
Yes, and roller locked needs some mechanism (gas or recoil) to open the lock. Roller delayed does not.
@@okaro6595 the CZ52 and the P9S have the recoil spring linked with the barrel.
That ("they are the same") is only true if the roller-locked gun were manually-operated. If it were self-loading (and, like-with-like comparison, the delayed one was too, but then blowback-operated is always self-loading), there needs to be an unlocking to the locking, and so there's one more difference between the two, which would be a gas system or whatever is actuating the unlocking.
i really wish books like that were available both in english and not for like 500$
Chinn’s The Machine Gun is 5 volumes of gun nerd information and is online in .pdf
Has this book been translated into English?
Is this book available in English?
Unfortunately not, which is a shame...
@@BlokeontheRange sorry to hear that. Thanks for the answer and video.
name and isbn of the book?
You can see that between 0:29 and 0:34
Title : Verschlußsysteme von Feuerwaffen
Author : Peter Dannecker
Editor : Journal-Verlag Schwend Gmbh
he gave the name at the start of the video
@@Zorglub1966 I asked for ISBN is because there are many different edition bears same name
I went to share your video because it's a great example and actually clicked the dislike button on the first try! Ignore that dislike, Bloke, if it sent you a message about it!
If anyone is looking for way more gun design engineering material Chinn’s The Machine Gun is 5 volumes of gun nerd information and is online in .pdf
Now I wish I spoke German... dammit. this would be super valuable to me.
Eh I’ll still stick with the blish principle for my rifle designs...