Did the Patriarchs Live 900+ Years?
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- čas přidán 4. 11. 2022
- Let's figure out whether they lived that long.
In this video, I interview Craig Olson, an internationally experienced seminary professor with a passion to train students who can confidently interpret and communicate biblical truths with conviction. Today, we'll be answering questions about the intersection between Scripture and history.
READ: How Old Was Father Abraham, by Craig Olson (amzn.to/47QgDFk)
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I'm having problems taking the guest seriously as he has made multiple factual errors in his comments: 1) the geocentric model wasn't based on the Bible, it was based on the observational science of the pre-modern world. It required mathematical development to explain planetary retrogression to make the modern understanding plausible. 2) He stated that the normal life span for the bronze age would be 30-40 years. That's just wrong. Yes, the average life expectancy would be around that, but that is an average based on high infant mortality.
If he gets this information wrong, then why do I take him as an expert on the rest of what he's saying? He is beginning with certain assumptions and building a system that "makes sense" of the Bible with those assumptions. His views may be right, but his early statements aren't helping.
Also, he's making a statement that the Bible is like other ancient documents, but that is a question we need to prove. Stating that we have earlier documents than the biblical record makes an assumption as to which documents came first.
I think it's very hard to understand the pre flood world and draw conclusions based on the world today and the scientific observation made these thousands of years later. For me, the main thing is to respect all of scripture as God-breathed. For those parts that are difficult, we believe that one day God will make all hidden things plain.
It's incredible you're literally admitting to be as gullible as humanly possible.
@@w4rsh1p I would be careful to be contemptuous about things that you don't really have experience about. Ask a question if you are actually interested in gaining wisdom, otherwise your insecurities and immaturity just show tbh.
On what grounds do you say that that person is gullible?
@@margueriteoosthuizen6006 faith means pretending to know things you don’t know. It’s the same as gullibility. Don’t other religions require faith as well? Religions you deem false?
@@margueriteoosthuizen6006 I also know the flood didn’t happen. So not sure why @pjstatenisland1575 is talking about the pre flood world. That isn’t earth.
@@w4rsh1p is that your personal definition of the word? It's not my definition of the word, I have can trust in the goodness of God in a situation without knowing exactly how it will turn out or what the variables are based on evidence of His goodness and kindness and overall omnipotence in my life in the past just as you get into your car or any other form of public transport without having a panic attack because you are afraid of something bad happening, going about your daily life in a fair amount of peace also requires faith, not in God but in the situation repeating itself fairly consistently.
They do, yes, but I don't regard followers of other faiths to be gullible, nor do I have contempt for them. I can respect their personal journeys and choices without having to agree with them and I can accept the fact that they have come to the conclusions they have based on experiences that I might not understand because I haven't been through it myself without being mean to them because my opinion is different.
I seems the author of Genesis does want the reader to believe these are really long ages if you look at Gen 47 you have Jacob saying his 130 year old life doesn't even compare to how long his ancestors lived.
Gen 47:8-9 - 8Pharaoh said to Jacob, “How many years have you lived? ”
9Jacob said to Pharaoh, “My pilgrimage has lasted 130 years. My years have been few and hard, and they have not reached the years of my ancestors during their pilgrimages.”
A fellow Jacob haha. Perhaps he meant his struggle with God has felt like it has raged for 130 years? That's what it feels like to me now as an adult, lol.
@SayWha exactly. We have to take it by faith brother.
@@seansimpson1133 Jacob's story is a lifelong struggle with God, bearing fruit only in his old age... am I to assume that my story should be entirely different than his?
Except Gen says Abraham died “a good old age,” but he would’ve been younger than all of his ancestors and _Shem_ would still be alive! Noah’s son!
And Abraham thought he was too old to have kids at 100, when his ancestors had kids way past 100.
They go over this at 27:00.
@@disguisedcentennial835 Correct. A literal reading of the chronology has Shem outliving Abraham by 35 years.
Please have both perspectives when you put something as controversial as this on your channel. This is the first video of yours that I am totally disappointed in watching.
Olson's doctoral dissertation is poorly reasoned scholarship. You are right to be disappointed.
Both perspectives are acknowledged! He explains them while he attempts to debunk them!
Anyone putting flawed science before inerrancy of scripture is not someone I'm interested in learning from.
Sad really, because you are placing your interpretation of the text as being inerrant.
@Re L Did you even watch the video? The idea that you could add the ages of the patriarchs together to form a coherent chronology IS the new idea. That wasn't even a thing until 200 BC. The earliest that even skeptics date the Pentateuch is to the 6th century BC, which is 300 years before your "literal" interpretation even existed.
If you're not a skeptic then Moses wrote the Pentateuch in either the 12th century or 13th century BC, which is over 1000 years before your "literal" interpretation even existed. If Moses would have disagreed with you, then I'm going to side with him over you.
That's exactly what Dr. Olson is saying. This idea that you can add the dates of the patriarchs to form an accurate chronology is ludicrous and would have been totally alien to the original authors. His argument is not that the ages are "wrong" or "lies", but that Moses was writing genealogies of the ancestors to the Hebrews in the same way that everybody else at the time wrote genealogies.
Only an idiot or a Muslim would think that the biblical text was literally handed down from God word for word like when God wrote the Ten Commandments on the stone tablets. Judaism and Christianity have always affirmed that the Bible was written by human authors and through human effort. Luke even flat out says that he went and interviewed witnesses. Whatever inspiration is, it certainly wasn't the authors just going into a trance and the text appearing.
This is the kind of idiotic thinking that turns fundamentalist Christians into fundamentalist atheists. Either what you believe, right now, is true or Christianity is false. Meanwhile, the rest of us recognize that we aren't 12th century Israelites and that our modern culture might lead us to a flawed interpretation of the text.
You wear me out
@grantgooch5834 I agree with the arguments you put forward, but I to go as far as questioning someone's intelligence for holding to literal longevity is way extreme...There are lots of highly intelligent people who (although an interpretation stretches their intellectual credulity) are more concerned with being faithful to God than accepted by others, be them Laypeople or academics.
The Biblical writings inspired yes. But does anyone realise that inerrancy and infallibility are concepts that were introduced early 19th century as a reaction to the Age of Enlightenment during previous century. Result? Literalistic interpretation of Bible... Protestant FUNDAMENTALISM which seems to pay no attention to genre, metaphor, symbolic and in the case of Jesus rhetoric. Rhetoric used to press a point in order to change one's mind. Fundamentalist bias is probably one good reason so many have left Christianity. If not as myself at least to more classical strains as Eastern Orthodoxy Catholic Franciscanism etc. However wherever you may be, it is the intent of the heart, that is one who loves God and fellow man, which matters.
This guy’s proposal of “misinterpretation” and “God allowing error” in Scripture echos the famous old line, “Did God REALLY say??”
“All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,”
2 Timothy 3:16
I suppose this verse won’t mean much to those who don’t believe the written scripture is truly Gods word in the first place.
God cannot speak in error. It is metaphysically impossible for God to say anything but the pure, unadulterated Truth.
Agreed. So why then is it so hard to believe the long life spans of mankind? Humans should remember God is never wrong. Just because we can’t understand stuff sometimes doesn’t mean it wasn’t so. We are the created being. God is our maker. The absolute supreme ruler and maker of everything. Way beyond the understanding of our little minds. How about trusting God start there first. The Bible is never wrong.
I disagree with your interpretation of scripture, not scripture itself. You do not get to assume a point of view.
@thethreeofus2620 is a mustard seed the smallest seed?
@@keithlarrimore no, but Jesus wasn’t giving a lecture on botany, he used the mustard seed in His metaphor as it properly conveyed the spiritual idea of the kingdom growing. If your trying to interpret metaphoric language literally your going to miss the intended point.
God actually described the longer life that..
"My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years" Isn't it the spirit of God that gives us eternal life?
He’s speaking about the flood. People were so evil he was only going to allow them to live 120 years before he destroyed them with the flood.
@@lindsaygraham9115 Yeah. This is how I read it.
@@lindsaygraham9115 The verse still implies these longer ages were accurate.
Jesus would tell us to believe Moses.
According to the team digging at Tell el Hammam, that site does fit chronologically.
Gotta say Sean, you’re such an excellent interviewer. You always ask excellent questions that really clarify things.
How exactly would a 500 year old body look differently than a 90 year old body when examining archeological digs????
You can use genetic analysis in order to determine the age of a skeleton.
if ancient calendars were lunar, then there were 12 full moons, or female cycles or 12 lunar years per solar year... 500 lunar years = 41.7 years of age.
@@Dr.Yalex.it’s a good theory, but our understanding of history shows the Hebrew’s used a lunisolar calendar, so they used the solar year for their dating
@@noahreineke9569 LOL, it's not a theory. Before becoming the historical "Hebrew" which you are familiar with..., the tribal "Heberu" peoples used the Lunar calendar, it is obvious mathematically. You may sit down and rethink your "understanding" of history. Math does not lie, unlike people.
@@Dr.Yalex. It absolutely is just a theory. You cannot substantiate the fact that that’s what they meant when saying years. The Hebrew people used both lunar and solar for dating. It’s a possible theory to explain the Genesis account and the age of the patriarchs, but no way of substantiating it.
There’s a lot of evidence to suggest it’s not meant in any literal sense. That view is a modern view. It’s not what was believed for 3,000 years.
Really good follow-up questions. Thoughtful and well-done.
Thank you!
These guys are going to be so embarrassed when they meet Methuselah
I don’t think McDowell is convinced; I think he is being polite since his question about “inerrancy” shows he is doubtful that biblical writers are using personal interjections over truth. Olson , on the other hand, is easy to compare inspired writers to pagan historians who had no fear of the true GOD.
Accurate
See did Adam and Noah realy live over 900 years by Genesis Apologetics it shows that it is mathematically impossible for the ages to be wrong
Really enjoyed your podcast, thanks for your time.
😊
24 minutes in and still not sure where he’s going with it. He seems supremely confident of having it all figured out
Hope you finished it
He was overly confident and his reasoning was arguably very poor and outdated.
Ill take inspired word of God almighty over puffy attitude "expert"
I switched off at 31 min. Josh, please do not get guests that is trying to prove the Bible wrong. This was not an interview I enjoyed
I was *just* talking to my 12 year old about this the other day. Looking forward to this.
Inspiring philosophy has already made a video on this topic. Perhaps it would be a great start.
@@danieljoshua4352 great suggestion thank you for that. I'll be sure to check it out!
Nice, I love that you’re having that convo with your 12-year old!
Grand ages , a flood, then decreasing. And the Assyrian s being too outrageous. Sounds like the Bible is the true one.
I just don't agree with him at all!!! So he thinks people were " too primitive to write a chronology! Outrageous.
What would a 900 year old skeleton, fresh from the garden of Eden (from a body that was to live forever) look like?
Brandon that's what I was thinking! I'm kind of sad about this talk but made myself watch. Sad because I came to a reborn love of Christ reading the NKJV and thought it mad sense ppl lived longer in the beginning to beget civilizations. Now I don't think I can explain this the way 2 phds just did! I came from Catholicism which mostly thinks the Bible is symbolic.
@@KM-zn3lx same. discouraging. Brings up a ton of questions about factuality of dates and people throughout all of scripture.
It depends if the dead body was encased in carbonite or not.
Really can’t believe Sean had this guy on. I benefited so much from his dad’s work. Put this guy with John Walton and you’ve got a completely unreliable Old Testament.
@@dtwoodsurgery And Low Bar Bill Craig. He believes the whole first 11 chapters of Genesis are MYTH!
Great interview. Looking forward to reading the article. Thanks for this.
If people didn't live for 900 years then why would God shorten the life span of man as mentioned in Genesis 6 vs 3?
God was speaking about the flood. He was only going to allow men to live 120 years because they were evil. So 120 years before he flooded the Earth.
@@lindsaygraham9115 right, but wouldn't you agree that the lifespan was much longer than 120 years prior?
@@danamurphy5241 No I honestly don’t, but I’m not 100% sure either. Something I have to really study. I’ve heard this teaching before, but not as in depth. It definitely makes sense to me.
@@lindsaygraham9115 what I'm asking is if human lifespan wasn't longer then why would God say he would reduce it to just 120 years? Whether God it was before or after the flood, according to scripture the human lifespan was longer than 120 years
I agree with the first part of this exegesis about this verse pertaining to the flood. The second part on the ages being 900 or 500 years old, I’m not sure I believe. The story of Abraham and Sarah scoffing at having a baby in their 90’s. If they lived to be 500 years old you would have to believe they could bare children up to age 300 or so lol. I’m not completely sold on either of these and would have to do way more study on this topic. I think it’s interesting though and it does make sense. Either way, I don’t believe it hurts the gospel. I’ve heard this view before and did some study prior to watching this podcast, which was much more in depth. I do understand why you would question this view though, it goes against everything we were taught.
I don't know what happened to my original comment but disappeared, I hope you didn't delete it because I love your channel, and it has helped me a lot in strengthening my faith...until now!
This video made me feel bad, it shook me for a while because I feel these numbers are there for a reason and if they're not accurate then we can question everything that comes after. If these numbers are "exaggerated" for whatever reason, what are we doing about all the other verses where God give us different time periods like in Leviticus 25 (7 weeks of 7 years, etc.) or the Prophesies of Daniel (70 weeks) ? Are we just going to ignore them too? Why God would put them in there? He just could've told us the genealogy of the Patriarchs and should've been enough, but didn't. He gave us detailed info.
In other videos you state your views on the topic even if they're contrarian to your guest's views but not this time....are you in agreement?
I'd really want to know because, with all due respect, Dr. Olson, sounds more like an unbeliever than a Christian.
Couldn’t agree more. I have still yet to hear an argument that harmonizes the entire Bible without just taking all of its numbers and statements at face value. As soon as we symbolize numbers or take stories as allegorical, it opens a can of worms and I start to wonder, how do we determine what is factual and what is symbolic? As much as I appreciate what this guy is trying to do, I think that it is creating doubt
You missed the underlining meaning of this presentation. Allow me to shorten it for you.
1. Ancient genealogies were NEVER literal. There were always skipped names and the ages were multiplied by constants to show importance of the people.
2. The genealogies of the Bible skip names. IE the great grandson of Judah left Egypt during the exodus. That would require each generation to be 130 years. IE each man would have had a son at that age, NOT that he lived that long. By then there are no 'magical' ages recorded. This would be like your great-grandfather being born in the 1600's. I would say your great-grandfather was born during the 1900's.
3. Moses wrote these genealogies according to the style and practice of the people of his day. Literal, continuous genealogies with accurate dates did not even exist until 1500+ years later.
The dates of Leviticus and Daniel are not genealogies of exalted, historic people, so of course they would be literal.
One very important aspect of Biblical interpretation is the author of each biblical book wrote to his contemporaries, not to 21st Century Christians. IE Paul writing the women's heads should be covered etc.
@@Brian_L_A Interesting. So when does hyperbolic numbers and info stop and literal historical info start in the Bible ? Is there a cutoff point where now we are reading factual history?
@@Brian_L_A "Moses wrote these genealogies according to the style and practice of the people of his day." - I don't think he was writing to be uniform with the ancients. Wasn't he inspired by God to give the Israelites their heritage back after 400 years in captivity - not knowing anything of their ancestor? Wouldn't God inspire Moses to tell a more realistic story if the 900 years was unbelievable?
@@Dispensational_David What you don't understand, is that back in ancient times all genealogies used multipliers in dates and skipped people. To them those genealogies were accurate for that is how they were written.
LOVED THIS CONVERSATION!!! prolly one a my favorite episodes so far!!!!
Very fascinating! Totally enthralled 😶
Interesting and important conversation. As believers, we are told not to be fearful. Truth is the foundation we are to stand on. We'll done program.
Ok, gotta comment on this before watching the entire video - hey guys, you do realize that MOST of the long lived skeletons in question, would have been buried before the Flood, right? After that, lifespans fell dramatically, within just a few generations to modern levels. So a world wide flood, that basically rewrote geological history is not going to leave a lot of skeletons around. After the flood, there were significantly fewer people - therefore fewer skeletons.
Have you thought about David Rohls new chronology?
I was thinking the same±
A world wide flood that rewrote geological history so profoundly it left no evidence it ever happened.
The ancient authors of Genesis had zero concept of a planet.
Most indeed, a worldwide flood would most definitely move the pre Noah bodies to anywhere around the world really.
I suspect this man would not believe the world-wide flood was literal.
It would be cool if you could have Vern Poythress on the show to discuss Gensis. I believe he could be helpful for those who have some difficulty with the hypothesis from this episode.
Thank you!
Insightful!
Interesting talk. Authorial intent is always a wise goal for understanding scripture or any literature for that matter.
See did Adam and Noah realy live over 900 years by Genesis Apologetics it shows that it is mathematically impossible for the ages to be wrong
I've enjoyed most conversations that Sean has had with past guests. Most of them tend to be Bible centered and rooted in scripture...this guy's claims are not Bible based and cast doubts on the word of God. While this will not affect me, this may very well affect less mature Christians and cause them to doubt other parts of the Bible as well. Not good.
Not good, but true.
Absolutely fascinating work and discussion. This answers a lot of questions that I’ve had about the Old Testament genealogical record, and makes more sense than a literal translation.
See did Adam and Noah realy live over 900 years by Genesis Apologetics it shows that it is mathematically impossible for the ages to be wrong
Can you recommend a book on this subject? Or an article or monograph? I can't find any books by Craig Olson at all.
Very interesting
This makes complete sense to me. I’ve heard this theory before, but not as in depth. Great discussion!! Thanks for sharing 😊
@@Dispensational_David The proper exegesis of this scripture isn’t talking about the age of man. It is referring to the flood. God is saying there is only 120 years left for man to live before he pronounces judgement by flooding the earth for their evil deeds. Also, man still lived long lives after the flood.
@@lindsaygraham9115 Interesting about the 120 years and point well taken. Still I wonder how to determine when numbers and facts are hyperbolic and when they are factual.
@@Dispensational_David I absolutely agree and can’t say 100% either way. I guess we have to remember that we’re dealing with ancient literature. Some of it is meant to be poetic, hyperbolic, symbolic, and literal. We must also take into account the audience they’re speaking to of that day and not think in terms of our 21st century mindset. I’ve came to the conclusion that there are some things I may never understand on this side of eternity, so it is much more important to stick to sharing the gospel.
@@lindsaygraham9115 See did Adam and Noah realy live over 900 years by Genesis Apologetics it shows that it is mathematically impossible for the ages to be wrong
This seems pretty straightforward to me 😅 It also lines up perfectly with a lot of other study I have been doing about biblical history, and with interpreting the original Hebrew texts in their cultural contexts. It all starts to make a lot more sense if you start thinking about it this way.
Accept the concept of symbolism, learn about the cultural settings of the writers, and stop being so 21st century literal about everything, and the Bible starts to open up. It’s almost as if a supernatural Being that knows exactly how the world works wrote it 😉
Please help my confusion. I'm watching something that started under an hour ago but comments from a day ago. Is it CZcams using one time zone?
I understand his overall premise, however saying if Noah lived to 950 years is impossible because we would have found evidence in bugs etc, I want to know who’s grave in the Biblical account have they found to compare it to. What did the flood of the whole earth do or did God do that changes “carbon dating” (which is disputed by many) ?
Disputed by many has little bearing on its accuracy. Framing it this way is overly skeptical. Why do you think virtually all of academia considers radiometric dating reliable?
@@Jacob115ify That is nonsense. Carbon dating from one site will get many different ages. I remember reading one event where the grass in the stomach of the frozen mammoth was 2,000 years, the muscle of the mammoth was 5,000. I remember in Australia when paleontologists dated the remains of aboriginals at a site (mungo man) -about 5,000 years. No money in that, so they went back and it went up to 19,000 years. Better. Another group went back, 60,000 years. I read a comment on it a few days ago as it popped up in something else not related and the date is up to "likely" 120,000 years. Why does anybody trust it - well their worldview needs it or they want the money or - whatever. But is it accurate? No way.
Excellent point, because carbon dating assumptions are that CO2 is in a state of equilibrium, but pre flood conditions would have blocked most of the radiation influx and it would take an assumed 25000 years for equilibrium to be reached after the collapse of the vapor canopy at Noah's flood.
---what I'm saying is the very formula for radiometric dating forces any and all results from it to be drastically and increasing wrong beyond 4000 years
@@billhesford6098 So do you think scientistist are incorrect in their assessments of atomic decay? In laboratory studies, do studies of atomic decay bear realistic, measurable results?
@@rwLincoln You have to assume a flood to get that answer. How do you prove the worldwide flood happened, and how would a huge amount of water change how atoms function?
If the ages can be exaggerated than whose to say the whole Bible isn’t exaggerated. It’s either true or false. If we can call some parts exaggerated what’s even the point. If we’re going to pick it apart might as well throw it away. Just believe what it says
Amen. The serpent has returned. I could almost hear this guy saying, "Did God really say...?" The ages in the Bible are accurate and consistent. This guy is claiming he found an error where nobody else has ever found an error in the last 3500 years of study. As if that one just somehow slipped through the cracks. What a nut. Anyone who has marveled at the treasures of scripture could never doubt it's infallible divine inspiration. The Bible validates itself with God's stamp on every page. He uses symbolism only in the literal. In otherwords, the literal also has spiritual and prophetic meaning all pointing directly to Christ and what he is doing through redemptive history. Esau and Jacob for example. Both literal and historical, but also picture 1st adam born in sin and the 2nd Adam, which is Christ. Jacob came out second but to him was all the blessings and inheritance given. Literal, historical, yet also reveals Jesus in type and picture.
I don't think you understand how literature works. The Bible is written by 40+ authors over greater than 1000 years using different literary genres.
I think his point is to understand the literary devices, how numbers and ages is been used in ancient times, and the same could have been done in the bible.
With that said, I disagree with him: There is a couple of examples where the people in Genisis knew their farthers lived long (Genisis 47). And in cases like Moses, it is present as extraordinary how old he was and how good his health was when he dies. Lastly, he ignores that Gid have decided to reduce how long people lives after the flood and that by the time of Abraham, you would have been considered old at close to 100.
@@Chomper750 That's a non sequitur, irrelevant. Plus, that's what's known as a source fallacy. If anything, the fact God used 40+ authors over 2000 years, over 2000 prophecies (roughly 1500 fulfilled exactly), all detailing a single unified message; this only proves a single and divine authorship who used select individuals to pen His words. Now, back to the issue at hand, there is abundant evidence for Abraham, for the Bible's chronology, and so on. Ivan Panin has many writings revealing some of the mathmatics discovered in the bible, that alone is another water stamp of a divine nature. His work is out if copyright so read at your leisure.
People like this guy who attempts to slip in ideas to discredit scripture, they'll all be forgotton while the word remains and is vindicated. Read the Bible, search out it's treasures and you'll find endless joy as you behold Jesus, the glory of God Himself.
@@lourensstrauss1914 Terah became Abraham's father at 130 years of age. It should be no surprise in regard to age then for Abraham.
God has given us all we need to know, when we trust our own understanding over what God has established, we become blind to the truth. God is the hot lamp, and our understanding is the mirage.
This is a great discussion. As a Christian I'm glad I could finally get some logical explanation to this topic. Thanks
When apologetics and reasoning with materialists is your idol
I can see why you would want to avoid logical discussion.
@@davethebrahman9870 good one
It would be interesting for you to have someone from the opposite side to give their answers to these views. Someone from Answers In Genesis would be good.
Almost all the mainstream apologists like Sean blow off the YEC arguments. It's a shame, because the recent creation metanarrative understanding of Scripture (recent creation, historical Adam, cosmic fall, global Flood, universal Babel judgment) is the most exegetically, hermeneutically, and theologically faithful perspective. In this instance, the only faithful interpretation of the lifespans is a literal one. Symbolic interpretations make the relevant texts into an incoherent mess. If men really lived 900+ years, that anthropology can only work with YEC and a global Flood. The ages cannot be merged coherently with any old-earth paradigm (logically or theologically), especially theistic evolution.
@@thethreeofus2620 yes I agree with you. When we interpret historical narrative as having symbolic meaning then we can do that with any part of the Bible.
But even if Sean does not agree, it would be good to have someone from the young earth perspective offer their rebuttal.
answers in genesis are horrible IMO, Its them who need someone to debate them with so many holes in their arguments. ne argument they say animals not eat meat before the flood, then they show a pic of another fish eating a fish in the fossil record. I never laughed so hard when I seen them do that
@@rickkelly5652agreed AIG are really the worst of the worst when it comes to fundinentalism
“No one has found any skeletons that looked like that.” Woah woah WOAH! The scientists are stating they’re finding skeletons that date hundreds of thousands and millions of years old. Why is this not taken into account as a possible effect on a 900 year old persons skeleton?
Good point! Also carbon dating isn't accurate especially saying something is millions or billions years old when no one alive or has been alive knows what that looks like to measure!
I think you are conflating terms. Lived hundreds of thousands and millions of years ago, is not the same as lived for 900 years.
What Olsen is saying is that no skeletons of people who were born, lived for 900+ years , and then died , have been found. We have good methodologies for working out how old a person was when they died.
We also have historical records of births and deaths . The average life expectancy in biblical times was 30-35. We have zero evidence of humans living for hundreds of years.
@@horridhenry9920I don’t think you understand what I’m saying
@@horridhenry9920 900 years old, pre flood, recently post garden of Eden. How long were their bodies expected to live in the Garden of Eden again?
@@Thrash230723 I don’t understand what you are saying because nothing you say makes sense.
“ pre flood “ has no supporting evidence. The idea of a global flood that covered the entire earth is absurd. Where did all the water come from and where did it go. Was there a local flood ? Perhaps. We know local flooding occurs all the time.
The patriarchs never lived in the Garden of Eden. They were the descendants of numerous incestuous relationships. As we know today the offspring of incest suffer physical and mental problems.
Fascinating ideas
Thanks!
“And Pharaoh said to Jacob, “How many are the days of the years of your life?” And Jacob said to Pharaoh, *“The days of the years of my sojourning are 130 years.* Few and evil have been the days of the years of my life, and *they have not attained to the days of the years of the life of my fathers in the days of their sojourning.”*
Genesis 47:8-9 ESV
… “but he still only lived to be the average life span of 30-40 years tho”
This is absolutely fascinating!!! Whether or not you fall into this camp of theological interpretation, how can you not read the old testament differently after listening to this? Context matters when studying scripture and this definitely changes some contextual thinking. Just fascinating.
I don’t really understand. What do you think is different?
See did Adam and Noah realy live over 900 years by Genesis Apologetics it shows that it is mathematically impossible for the ages to be wrong
Fascinating research, thanks for sharing!
Fascinating video, thank you for addressing this issue. Xx
I feel that Dr Craig Olsen's starting position strongly influences how he understands this subject. He obviously does not believe in a global flood some 4500 odd years ago. He obviously does believe that modern dating techniques are reliable. I think his strongest objections can be answered fairly straightforwardly when viewing the global flood as a real event. It's clear to me that almost all his reasoning flows on from there. I've heard much of what he says from Inspiring Philosophy who has the same starting point.
If anything, this COVID science should make us all more questioning of science. Science isn't fact. It's often speculative and theories.
@@KM-zn3lx it’s not science itself that we should question but institutions and authoritarians who have co-opted the word “science” as a weapon for political power.
And you are starting from the position there was a global flood 4500 years ago.
They didn't know the Earth was a planet. When they spoke of the earth (ground not planet) and land, it was only the known area around them.
@@Chomper750 it was widely known in the ancient world that the earth is a round planet. People already long before the bible was written knew that. People in those times studies the stars. They were not all a bunch of dumb goatherders. The piramids were built exactly aligned with certain stars. They could track the stars and easily conclude the earth was round. The ancient world was full of astronomy
That's a good and correct point Anthony
I feel like once you get into this level of interpretation you should just believe what it says. If you doubt one part of the Bible why even believe at all
True. Which is why most people don't when they actually consider if it makes sense.
I don’t think it’s that simple. We SHOULD think deeply and carefully about the Bible and follow the evidence where it leads. Olson doesn’t doubt the story but he doubts that we’ve interpreted it correctly.
@@SeanMcDowell Correct interpretation is always relative to context.
I don’t get it. What’s to say any of its true then? If the ages are supposedly wrong.
It says Adam was 930 if you can doubt verses in scripture then why believe scripture is all I’m saying.
Excellent
I don't play poker, and I'm guessing that Sean doesn't either, but I think if I had to play and needed to win, it would be great to see Sean on the other side of the table! He was gracious and kind , as always, but couldn't hide his thoughts at times.
Haha, I’m terrible at poker 😜
@@SeanMcDowell , I really don't know the game, nor do I need to, but watching your face during this particular interview was enlightening! I was thinking of the scripture in Matthew 7 about not casting "pearls before swine", which is instruction to notice how our message is being received. I couldn't help but assess that there weren't as many "pearls" in this discussion. Blessings
So, what he is implying (based on the Genesis chapter five serial list) is that the creation of Adam is even younger than Young Earth Creationists (YEC) propose. It was actually quite a superficial discussion, omitting several problems.
Olson's doctoral thesis is awful...
As a YEC it has a literal meaning. Pre-Noah flood the earth was different + we are devolving rather than evolving so the Human DNA is smaller now (proven, see academic materials) that means mutations has more impact on us today than pre-flood hence we die earlier. Bigger DNA can bear more of mutations. Mutations in the DNA came in by sin. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ for Him is the glory forever!
Single celled organisms have huuuuuge genomes. Why do they die so quickly?
Because I gave a simplistic explanation in order to highlight one of the biggest factor for humans.
For each organism God had a different pre-coded genome sequence which holds different life expectancy.
Yet mutations can be observed in each living organism and its rate is different just like the correlated DNA replication rate (which brings in mutations).
Besides, the size of an animal also one factor (out from the many) and you said it is a single cell organism. How about an elephant? A whale?
Eg. some of pine trees have huge genomes and most of them indeed live longer than a human (plus they grow bigger, so size matters).
But here we focus on humans:
- Today it is scientifically observed that telomeres (end of DNA sequences) has a direct correlation with aging and life expactancy, yet it is observed as well that by each generation we lose telomeres (telomere erosion).
- Human had 40.7 million more DNA base pairs at some point in the past which means it has longer telomeres (=longer life expactancy)
- Noah and his three sons had to inbreed, and inbreed results higher rate of de novo mutations which is carried over to the next generations
- Pre-flood the earth magnetism was higher, the oxygen level of the air was higher which leads to longer life
- Noah died at 950, yet Abraham lived 175, Jacob 147 but in the age of Moses the maxim was around 120 which today is less. Scientific research: Robert W Carter Patriarchal Drive
- Today Aubrey de Grey (on of the world’s leading biomedical gerontologist) said removing mutations can make human live 1000 years
- Removing mutations from one gene of mice enhanced the health and extended the life by 23%
So driving factors: environmental change, telomere length, faster rate of DNA replication leads to more mutations
I am not a YEC scientist (more like someone who believes in the Word entirely and searched for scientific explanations) and my mother's tongue is not English so if you want to go into details I am not the best person to ask. However if you are interested I can suggest certain links and books to read.
As an evangelical Christian who belives in the five solas what I can see today based on my limited knowledge: Genetics is working against (macro)evolutionism. We have more and more question marks by each year against the hypothesis of (macro, chemical, cosmic)evolution yet it is told and taught as a fact and considered as a (high confidence) science.
The problem with evolution is that it damages the faith of many. If you start to question the inerrancy of the Bible (God’s Word) in some part (I am not talking about the clear metaphorical parts, parables etc which are more abstract and so harder to grasp), and say that smth is not literal that appears to be literal, then you might start to think: what else is not literal in it? What else is allegorical? Hence you lose your trust in God and in the Truth = damage your faith.
Just a question of curiosity for Sean. Are you an old earther or young earther?
Thanks for this honest explanation of these hoy button topics
All this sounds like secular speculation
Fastenating. I have taken a few baby steps along the math interpretation. Thanks for having this wise and good man.
Hi from down under. The number of 65,000 years of Aboriginal habitation seems to me to be a bit random. Seems to me that we hear a lot of pretty out there numbers when it comes to secular claims, not just Biblical ages. I'd love to hear what you and Dr Craig think? Thank you 🦘🌏👏
I appreciate Craig's intellectually honest intent, and Sean's willingness to address highly problematic challenges to Abrahamic faiths. I'm curious why you would stop at just evaluating dates though. Why not extend to other extremely improbable events, like the Great Flood? Or literally every supernatural event mentioned in these ancient texts? Perhaps my real question is:
"Why do some who invest time evaluating the foundations of their religion with objectivity, reach similar conclusions as those who accept the life-altering reality of nothing supports their faith. Yet they continue trying to find a basis to cling to the belief system, instead of accepting a new reality?".
I’d like to see Craig Olson and Hugh Ross discuss this.
I like when he said "The myth of uniform interpretation. There was no uniform interpretation." I think that is realistic as well as true.
I wish Olsen would have mentioned what InspiringPhilosophy said about the different chronologies in the different OT versions.
I think he mentioned the Septuagint once in passing, but basically if you're not using the Septuagint ages you're just using made up numbers. The Hasmoneans changed all the ages, and that's what is in the Masoretic text that most bibles still use.
This is a problem because if you use nonsense numbers, you learn absolutely nothing, and if anything just dig a bigger hole.
@@fluffysheap The video also says the Samaratan torah also has different numbers.
I don't know if these translations of Genesis are all present in the dead sea scrolls, but these manuscript traditions are and were not treated as inherently heretical.
I have to wonder if those genealogical numbers are a type of numerical lingua franca going on in the ancient world when it comes to calendar calculation and astrological messaging.
This topic brings to my mind a question that I have been thinking a lot but didn't find any teaching about it.. would be really awesome to get someone to talk about it! Here it is: How did Moses get all this history written in Genesis? I don't necessarily mean considering Abraham etc but of creation and all that happened after, Kain and Abel, all those people who were the first blacksmiths or first started making musical instruments and founded first cities and first to take 2 vifes, all those genealogys, those of Noahs time and so on. I can't remember my great grandfathers, who they were and what they did.. let alone so detailed stuff about people living in another place in another time. How did even Noah know and preserve all this so well. How did Abraham in Ur know about this when people around him worshipped other gods and didn't seemingly know this at all.. How did Moses get to know about it all.. being even raised in pharaos house and propably thought the egyptian version of the history. Did God himself teach this to Moses as He spoke to him face to face such a long time or was it somehow preserved as stories or ancient documents (and if so, how didn't most of the people know this stuff)?
Most likely God told him
And if it was God from whom Moses got these details.. why would God have exaggerated the years as some sumerian people did? Or didn't God have that concept of chronology at that time yet..
Moses spent 40 days on mount Sinai with God... think about the things God could reveal to Moses in all those days.
@@brudit i dont think God exaggerated
And how did moses write about his own death and how he was buried?
SEAN I am confused. At 1:21 your guest of today said your previous guest was wrong. I dont know which one. I have been sharing a channel of one of your guests and his findings of Sodom. My fear as my hope is I haven't mislead anyone with false information. Could you give some guidance or set up a debate. Have a blessed Sunday thank you for your Ministry. But I uncomfortable and uneasy in my mind and soul about your channel because of what your guest said. I hope it passes quick I have the alot of respect for you. I enjoy your work. Help us find the TRUTH.
Blessings
Your Brother in Christ
I agree 100%. I remember that video and the guest seemed VERY familiar with the area and laid out what seemed like bulletproof certainty that the cities must have been accurate and were destroyed by Sulphur.
It is of critical importance that both sides be heard and an explanation given as to why this guest says otherwise.
The septuagent version doesn't overlap, it lines up normally. Look it up
People should look up interview between chuck missler and barry setterfield, amazing information on how the speed of light is slowing down.
Thanks for this . This makes a lot more sense on biblical internal consistency and its agreement with real archeological history. It makes life easier too in not needing to defend 900 year old characters needlessly.
Please watch Kent Hovind's creation series , it's totally feasible that they did in fact live that long
I think giving people room to ask questions without throwing them out of the kingdom is needed. I know it's hard when these truths are so precious. As a Calvinist I think Bill Craig is wrong in regards to election, but his willingness to ask uncomfortable questions and pursue those answers is undeniable, so I respect him greatly. I see that same intellectual courage in this fellow. I'm not sure about all this but it doesn't bother me if God spoke into the context of the ancient world using ways they wouldn't stumble over even if it means we have to work a bit.. Praise Jesus!!!
I once read that the predeluvian counts were done in months based on 360 day calendars which were mislabeled (misinterpreted) years by the bible scribes. However, this method also creates problems up and down the line in other biblically historical computations.
Just bought the book. I cant recommend it enough. He absolutely destroys the thoery that the ages are "literal". He includes lots of tables as well. Its worth the cost.
Not sure why everyone is having issues with how Craig presented everything. I thought it was great!
Flood also greatly changed the environment and atmosphere
A claim which is not supported by any testable study. The geological layers can't lie, friend.
@@Jacob115ify Why are so many layers over millions of years stacked on top of one another with no erosion in between them? We always see erosion on the surface of the earth today, right? There is erosion after a couple of hundred years let alone millions. The layers are more consistent with one major deposition event, whatever that was.
@@billhesford6098 There is no global Geologic layer showing a worldwide flood. If this happened, there would be a layer showing where all life on earth was wiped out. Why is there no layer like this?
The layers are accumulated over millions of years, condensed and packed down over time. The major color and makeup changes you can see are all from local or grander scaled catastrophic events, by what we can tell through the data that is observed and cross refferenced.
@@Jacob115ify I would say all the layers are generally evidence of a worldwide flood. Look at how Mt St Helens volcano produced its layers over a short period - days. Now coal is forming from the forest that surrounded the volcano. That was 40 years ago. We all watched it. I haven't followed it for many years now.
In many mountainous areas, rock layers thousands of feet thick have been bent and folded without fracturing. How can that happen if they were laid down separately over hundreds of millions of years?
These formations are all over the world. If the bending of rock happened over millions of years as layers formed, the rocks would be cracked everywhere. I used to believe in the millions of years thing as well. Not anymore. Its a religion that I don't subscribe to.
@@billhesford6098 Your post makes absolutely no sense.
Woooww... This is cool... I know the ages of patriarchs are written in sexagesimal format and include some meaning in their numbers, as the people of Mesapotamia of that time period used the numbers symbolically to communicate some message. However, I do not know what they intended to convey thru those numbers. It would be great if this is addressed in the video. So excited.
I think you’re gonna enjoy this one!
@@SeanMcDowell AMEN brother McDowell I always find new information about the age of Creation and the history of Adam's descendants after the fall from Eden when I read Genesis. I really appreciate your Christ centered and Scripturally accurate content for the furtherance of The Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ 🙏 ❤️ 👊. I don't understand this guy's Logic. That's not Christianity it's his misunderstanding of it that he's talking about. This has nothing and everything to do with the video but please listen if you want to otherwise leave it alone and ignore it. Hello my name is Justin and I'm a fellow Christian and Apologist but I'm also a college student. I'm not a closed minded Theist as I have nothing against Atheists or unbelievers as I speak to them often to understand their reasons for unbelief but we as Christians are convinced of God's Existence due to many real factors). I'm not trying to convert anyone or convince anyone to become Christians as that's The Holy Spirit's job to help people believe but only explain why I believe in Jesus Christ. There's actually evidence of God's Existence in Christianity. First of all there's proof that Jesus of Nazareth existed in history since the writings of Tacitus, Josephus Flavius, Pliny the younger and other historical documents prove that He was living two thousand years ago that even scholars both religious and Atheists agree with historically speaking but not that He's The Divine Son of God because obviously they don't.
I'm going to give you historical and archeological evidence for God's Existence as The Scriptures have prophecies that predate the events recorded in them by several millennia including Matthew, Hosea and Zechariah which prophesy accurately of the people of Israel becoming a nation again after over 1900 years of being scattered around the nations since the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. spoken of by Christ in Matthew 23:29-24:3 and returning to their homeland after The Holocaust with Jerusalem as their capital in 1948 exactly as Jesus The Christ said. The prophets including Daniel spoke of the time where several world empires would arise and fall including the Babylonian kingdom, Medes and Persians, Roman Empire, and Saladin and the Muslims which went in consecutive order for the past few millennia. The people of Israel becoming a nation after The Holocaust in 1948 (ironically the melting point of gold as God compares Israel to gold that's tested in fire in Zechariah 13:8 and Jeremiah 16:15) exactly how Jesus The Christ said would happen since God us everything to come in The Scriptures and not just because people were working towards as Atheists claim which are impossible for any regular man to predict.
Just before anyone says Christianity is a white man's religion made to oppress blacks during slavery you obviously aren't aware that the first Christians were Jews in The Middle East and that Christianity just like any religion can be used by evil and corrupt people to oppress others but you forget that the first Abolitionists/Civil Rights activists were Christians who sought to abolish slavery, racism, segregation, injustice and prejudice throughout American history. Jesus The Christ loves you enough not to give you what we all deserve which is God's Wrath by His Own Blood. Charles Darwin didn't originally come up with The Theory of Evolution over 200 years ago as it is mentioned in the writings of Ancient Greeks who believed in Demons that gave knowledge to philosophers.
Evolution makes no sense when nothing has evolved after thousands of years of human history and supposedly the first creature came from primordial sludge several millions of years
ago funny how they won't believe that God an Eternal Almighty Spirit Being created us from the Earth) which came from a supermassive expansion of matter at high temperature that inexplicably created everything in the known universe that supposedly came from nothing billions of years ago. How did the organs evolve before there were bones, skin, substance and how did any creatures see before eyes evolved? I've studied evolution and abiogenesis in the past and read Darwin's " Origin of The Species" and I'm not convinced of macro Evolutionary biology whereas I accept micro Evolution like speciation and adaptation but not macro Evolution because there's no evidence of it nor clear observable examples of it where living creatures evolve into other kinds of species plus the fact that fossils don't show evidence of evolution and genetic entropy rules out evolution. The question begs how did two genders evolve from a common ancestor with a perfectly hospitable and sustainable environment with breathable oxygen and resources to survive on inexplicably? Atheists have the burden of proof to explain how everything came to be and why our existence is possible without the Existence of God from an godless perspective just as Christians have to provide evidence of God's Existence and the validity of His Word.
Evolution requires life to already exist in order to take any effect in living organisms so it doesn't account for the existence of Life and reality. Also evolution is impossible because it goes against The Law of entropy and the second Law of thermodynamics because evolution makes things better whereas nothing continues to get better but decays and turns to absolute destruction in the end. Mark Ridley an Evolutionist said "No evolutionist whether gradualist or punctuationist uses the fossil record as evidence in favor of The Theory of Darwinian Evolution as opposed to special Creation". God's Existence is made perfectly known and observable in the universe as demonstrated in His Handiwork in the intelligently designed manner that Creation was made, human consciences and consciousness historical and archaeological evidence of God's Word being valid history, fulfillment of Bible Prophecies God in His Holiness and Righteousness could give us what we deserve in Hell for our since but He's merciful to give us free will to choose to accept or reject His gift of salvation by grace through faith in His Son Jesus. I don't mean this is any condescending manner but if you'd like to discuss The Scriptures with me or have me listen to your view on anything my instagram account is Savage Christian Kombatant.
@@SeanMcDowell See did Adam and Noah realy live over 900 years by Genesis Apologetics it shows that it is mathematically impossible for the ages to be wrong
@@justingary5322 See did Adam and Noah realy live over 900 years by Genesis Apologetics it shows that it is mathematically impossible for the ages to be wrong
Very much looking forward to the book
We enjoyed this discussion. It warrants further research IMO. It’s curious to consider the “ages” of the patriarchs being symbolic. Moreover, could it also mean the patriarchs lived much much longer lives, which could lend itself to the old earth creationist theory. Because….. if these numbers are symbolic, and we *assume* a standard lifespan of ~100 years, the earth just got much much younger…
Great discussion 👍
It makes complete sense that they would have calculated age differently, numbers and timelines had different meaning to them back then.....so it is very confusing for a modern mind that wants accuracy in everything
Dating of settlements is largely based on ideology, pottery and occasionally bolstered by assumptions on carbon dating which is notoriously variable. To claim that certain cities were not about during the biblical chronological time line is simply daft hubris, having way more faith in human interpretations and circular reasoning than any hard evidence.
This would be better if we could see him interact with Dr. Nathaniel Jeanson from Answers in Genesis - someone should organize a debate!
Not sure about this. I like the theory, but I suppose I am confused as to why God would include these numbers in his Word? As for the numerical scheme, I don’t know about the multiples of 5, but the 5 + 7 you mentioned = 12, which is one of those Biblically significant numbers.
I would like to know more about what he thinks of the Sumerian King's List and if he's studied the differences between the recovered texts. I wonder if it's been translated incorrectly or hyperbolized from other lists - to me, the sections seems to better describe important names in households, as they were then - mostly caravans. It's also interesting that the prediluvian names bear some resemblance to biblical prediluvian ones. Also, from a YEC perspective, I'm not sure why we need to find older bodies in the fossil record.. Just because a few people lived 100-200 years doesn't mean that will be the average. You'd still be looking for a needle in a haystack. It just means they survived long enough to have kids to keep God's promise "alive" which probably wasn't the norm for any family line. Also after the ice age, we've lost so much archaeology and burials that are now covered by the ocean where people were likeliest to live. Also, I'm very curious what he said about the 2500-1800 gap in the timeline. Why couldn't they have temporarily moved city administration into tents because of climate change? That's an oddity that needs an explanation. I wonder what secular scientists say about it.
Hello Miss Valerie. I think what he means to say is that ages vary to a large extent between populations not tindividuals, so we would expect to see evidence of some kind of a long-lived population if such existed. There really isn’t any good evidence for the biblical stories in Genesis and Exodus.
How can you believe in YEC and an ice age?
@@josephbrandenburg4373 YEC believe there was an ice age after the flood. It's impossible not to be in a scientific model. There's too much evidence for it.
@@valeried7210 Why would you beleive the evidence for an ice age and not an old earth?
@@josephbrandenburg4373 dating is the biggest evidence for an old earth. Human migration patterns actually follow an ice age.
I thought that the ages being hyperbolic was already the prevailing view.
It is except amongst fundamentalists.
I admittedly, have not watched the whole of the video yet (I’m not sure I will have time), but I am interested in how the guest is saying the archaeology/history does not match the “traditional chronology”. Is it based on a lack of evidence (which I find particularly weak, as it assumes all knowledge that is presently about the subject is all there will be)? Is it based on contradictory dates, and if so, how are the dates in question taken, and why should we trust them as authoritative to state what is true over the “traditional chronology”?
In the book “How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth” it says, “Interpretation that aims at, or thrives on, uniqueness can usually be attributed to pride (an attempt to ‘outclever’ the rest of the world), a false understanding of spirituality (wherein the Bible is full of deeply buried truths waiting to be mined by the spiritual sensitive person with special insight), or vested interests (the need to support a theological bias, especially in dealing with texts that seem to go against that bias). I don’t want to misinterpret what he’s saying or his heart, it does appear that he holds an “old earth” theology as his starting point, so it makes sense that this is his debate.
He had me raising an eyebrow when he said that Sodom & Gomorrah weren’t where the archeologist you’ve had on shows the fiery balls and cities burnt yet he trusts other scientistic dating.
I’m know I could be wrong, and I can pray more and study more about this, but I just wanted to comment with another viewpoint as I’m always skeptical of “new ideas” in mainstream Christianity.
Great interview nonetheless, and I always appreciate your heart when interviewing!
How can we know what's true before the flood?
How can we know it happened at all?
How can we know any written history is true. The first camera was made in the early 1800s, so all previous history relies on the writers being truthful. Atleast with the bible we can say it inspired by God even though man wrote it.
Then there's the saying that only the Victor's write history. We know Jesus is the Victor but during that time when Jesus was crucified, it would have looked as though the Romans and Jews were Victor's and were in control of the history books, yet the story of Jesus lives on. Amazing when you think about it. If the Romans and Jews wrote that Jesus walked around after his crucifixion, it defeats their narrative to do so.
@@dansmith9724, do you recall what was the state religion of Rome, the last century + of its existence? Christianity. Before Constantine, the Roman Empire was approximately 10% Christian. The reason that over 99% of the NT manuscripts we have date from the time Rome became a Christian empire is not coincidence. The victors DID write history.
@@timmytime23 state religion of Rome until 300ad, 30s ad I'm pretty sure Rome wasn't a fan of Jesus. There were also plenty of other Christian groups before the Roman Catholics. The Romans joined up once the popularity of Christianity spread and they did start rewriting things. The added several extra books to the bible, added indulgences as well as Mary worshipping all which aren't done in Christian circles outside the Roman Catholics etc etc. There are timelines you can find online where they started adding these extra things outside of the Bible. There is alot of different ceremonies, extra beliefs they've added in the last 1000yrs. The Bible isn't their ultimate source of information/inspiration, for that they turn to the Pope. Again it took 300yrs after Jesus Christ and they have gradually changed and added things.
I'm off track but the Romans didnt have information on Jesus being the risen Messiah. Over 300yrs until they jumped on board.
@@timmytime23 ps in relation to this video it's mostly referring to the old testament. Romans would have a hard to changing it. 300ad is abit late changing old testament books.
Sean, why didn’t you ask him hard questions about problems with his theory?
The guy is selling a book. Maybe you should have had him on after you read the book and can better analyze/critique it.
What method you use calculating life span. Or time span. Calculating date with our calendar is wrong. They used different calendar standard. They used the Moon.
I was actually really surprised here at how John Sanford's position and also the Young Earth Creation position were so poorly represented. I don't think he truly understands either and he does not seem anywhere near up to date on the latter. I suggest having John Sanford on to discuss this same topic as he can represent both positions accurately having the distinction of being both John Sanford and a Young Earth Creationist :)
What he doesn’t seem to spend time on is how the life spans greatly decreased after the flood. Makes perfect sense with all the global changes and food supply starting over.
He briefly mentioned the Canopy Theory from the 60’s that’s part of the Young Earth view and said it was debunked. It was literally just a 5-second treatment.
Oh God I sincerely pray for this idea to be quickly refuted In Jesus name, Amen. I have been an admirer of Josh and his Son for years. Let's pray some good refutation and debates follow this video.
God’s been a bit quiet since the Enlightenment began.
Did you watch the full video? Olson says that there needs to be more research on this topic and that he's putting forward his research and inviting others to examine it. McDowell says there are some interesting points, but he's not sure he's convinced and wants to learn more. Both of them are clear that they affirm the inerrancy of scripture.
multiple of 5 (possibly with 7 added ) , with a few exceptions. That is not a numerical scheme, it's numerology. BTW multiple of 5 +7 is the same as multiple of 5+2. Making it a "holy" 7 does not make it less contrived. Other than that very interesting hypothesis.
What does this mean for guys like Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis?
One hardly knows where to begin here. It's been a couple of decades since I studied Biblical archeology and stomped around in Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Turkey and Greece, but there are some inconvenient details that are being glossed over, and a surprising lack of pushback:
- Archeology is oftentimes as much art as it is science. Interpretations of the data (both in Biblical archeology and non-Biblical archeology) vary widely and wildly, and is often in dispute. It's the nature of the beast. But that lack of precision doesn't quite come through in this video. And that's not a good thing.
- Why should we assume that God can't make a bunch of humans live to be 900 years old? There is no rational basis for this. God "arbitrarily" chose ~80 as the time for people to die these days (and ~60 for those in third-world countries). But He could have picked any other age as He saw fit. [Is 65 lays the groundwork for a compelling argument about radically different (ie, antediluvian) ages in the Millennium, but is beyond the scope of this discussion]
- Pray tell .. what is a 5,000 year old fossil of a 900 year old man supposed to look like? ..one that's been buried in a world-wide flood, no less. If one doesn't have an answer to that question, how is he prepared to insist they haven't been found (let alone that they don't exist)? You may have them, but have misidentified them. It happens (a lot). (Just for grins... can the author point to any discovered human skeletons/fossils that have been covered by a worldwide [or local] flood of Biblical proportions? And in the absence of such evidence, will his next book claim Noah's Flood didn't happen globally or locally since no human antediluvian remains have been found?)
- If ancient Sumerian king lists give years between 18,000 and 43,000 years (a list which may have been completely unknown to Moses), help me understand why their fictitious list is grounds to believe that the 300 - 969 yr old ages in Gen 5 & 11 are also fictious? Those numbers are off by a factor of 40 or so. Hardly apples to apples. So why assume they're related?
- If the ages mean something other than real years, then ..what? It strains credulity to assume that old ages are a means of conferring honor to them. If so, then the pagan Terah (Josh 24:2) ought to be fewer years than his righteous son Abraham, and (as the author pointed out) Isaac ought to have fewer years than Father Abraham. And more could be said for all the other men in Gen 5, all of whom lived ~5x longer than Abraham. Not a convincing argument. The ages show a pretty consistent trend downwards from Adam at 930 to Joseph at 110 (with the exception of Enoch, who didn't die). If there's mystery in the ages, the consistent downward trend ought to have a prominent explanation.
- Abraham's surprise at being a father in his old age is directly connected to the thought that HE AND SARAH would have the kid. After all, they've been trying for dozens of years, to no avail. Note that his laughter in Gen 17:17 is connected **both** to his age and Sarah's, not just his alone. And as Gen 25 points out, he had 6 more kids through Keturah after Sarah died at age 127.
- The pattern of the ages being a multiple of 5 (and some plus 7) is interesting, but should not be taken as proof that the ages are not literal. One must first believe that God is incapable of having ages form a pattern. And that would be a foolish assumption indeed. (Besides, the Gen 11 ages don't follow that pattern).
- Philo, Stephen (Acts 7) and Paul (Gal 3) all take the ages as written, and in the case of Paul, he does math on the given ages in order to describe the time between Abraham and the Law (ie, Moses). This would be nonsensical if Paul - through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) didn't think the ages were literal.
More could be said.
Overall, this interview could have had a lot more pushback. A lot more. Maybe these points are sufficiently addressed in his book. I hope so.
I'm not opposed to the Bible occasionally meaning something other than what it "literally" says. After all, we're talking about people who live in radically different cultures than ours, writing in a radically different language. I've lived in third-world countries, and visited a dozen other 3rd world countries, so I get that things can be radically different. I've seen it with my own eyes, and can take you to a number of passages where everyone, bar none, will say "it doesn't mean what it actually says" (eg, Acts 2:5. People from China weren't there.)
But as Bible-affirming people, we need to be especially leery when anyone says "Did God really say...", and we need to test those spirits. Hard.
I really think that wasn't done here.
Your brief critique is the tip of the iceberg. Olson's twisted treatment of the sacred text typifies today's evangelical OT scholarship. The problems are manifold: exegetical, doctrinal, and hermeneutical. Note his post-modernist, subjectivist retreat: "I believe in the authority of the Bible." Meanwhile, his methodology utterly destroys any semblance of biblical authority.
@@thethreeofus2620 Yes, my comments are really just the tip of the iceberg. I'm not expounding anything new to anyone who has spent a little time digging through these issues, so I have to say I'm a little curious as to why Sean didn't at least push back a little more than he did. This is low-hanging fruit. :(
A LOT more could be said.
@@timffoster thank you for interacting. Just a very careful look at the biblical text alone refutes his entire thesis. I have a copy of his dissertation and quite frankly it's a dreadful piece of scholarship. I guess I'm willing to cut Sean some slack since pushing back on the Fly might not be his best skill set unless he's really familiar with the subject. Nonetheless it would be more responsible to have an alternative Viewpoint given by a guest who knows what they're talking about. The real serious issue has to do with where the locus of authority lies. Is it with God's sacred and infallible speech or the conclusions made by sinful men about external evidences? His methodology clearly favors the latter. That's why his claim that he believes in the authority of the Bible is an empty one.
I'm no scholar but it did occur to me that IF for some reason the DNA of early humans had a different "clock", and IF for that same reason they did not age as quickly, then their skeletal remains would not appear any older than a elderly person's bones look today. We known that each species has a sort of clock built in, that determines its average lifespan. So an elephant can live much longer than a mouse. An olive tree lives for centuries while a some plants live just one growing season. We can't assume that the human internal clock was the same before the flood. The fact that the Sumerians cited long ages, although greatly exaggerated, seems to indicate to me that long lives were assumed at that time. Just some thoughts from a non-expert....
I really loved this write up. Thank you!
I'm severely concerned at the comment section. Yes, you can have a symbolic interpretation and not be a liberal. Guys, get outside your echo chambers and have some conversations with people. The crazy dogmatic comments are so ignorant it's painful. Sean, thanks for hosting. Great work.
I wonder his thoughts on the number "40" and multiples as a period of struggle. I wonder why the Hebrews and other nations have overly exaggerated numbers for length of life before the flood more so than afterward.
Genesis 47:7-9 reads: 7 Then Joseph brought his father Jacob in and presented him before Pharaoh. After Jacob blessed Pharaoh, 8 Pharaoh asked him, “How old are you?” 9 And Jacob said to Pharaoh, "The years of my pilgrimage are a hundred and thirty. My years have been few and difficult, and they do not equal the years of the pilgrimage of my fathers." 10 Then Jacob blessed Pharaoh and went out from his presence.
Here, the Bible indicates that Jacob's years (130) were "few" in number compared to that of his ancestors, which would fully accord with a straightforward reading of the text.
Dr. Olson's viewpoint that the biblical authors (arguing for multiple authors/editors of Genesis?) exaggerated lifespans as a way to assign honour, and that these writers were borrowing from the format of the surrounding pagan cultures to communicate in a way that the people of their time and culture understood, is intriguing to say the least. And yet Genesis 47 would seem to go against his interpretation.
So interesting. While it’s important to hold to biblical truth, I feel like some Christians have done ourselves no favours in insisting on a basic literal interpretation at the expense of engaging properly with what is known about the time when these texts were written. Thanks gents 😊 Also fun to hear from a fellow Kiwi 😊
@Re L I absolutely do. I just think that if research points to the possibility that the ages listed are not strictly chronological, we need to be willing to consider that. Proposals like these are not necessarily evidence of unbelief or a conviction that any aspect of the Bible is untrue.
Truth is properly understanding what is literal meaning and what is symbolic in the Bible text. We need to humbly approach our sacred writings and also having an honest questioning of what science tells us. Science is always subject to revision as it develops and reinterprets according to revised ideas and better scientific understanding.
@Re L Why should I disregard the whole Bible because I believe YOUR interpretation of scripture is flawed?
That speaks to great pride on your part.
I agree 💯!
@Re L Have you considered the possibility that Jesus was wrong?
I think that Craig Olson may be out in la-la land with his thinking. Dr. Sean McDowell needs to have somebody from Answers in Genesis on, to give their viewpoint. They know about Craig Olson and his thinking. Olson’s motivation for his honorific interpretation of the long lifespans in Genesis (specifically Abraham’s) is to find a middle ground between critical scholars who choose scientific evidence over Scripture and conservative scholars who choose Scripture over scientific evidence. Olson’s reasons for rejecting the long lifespan of Abraham is not a problem with the text but has more to do with how modern scholars have been taught to think about the long lifespans of the patriarchs. There is no objective reason to reject the long lifespan of Abraham’s life. The only reason to do so is if you are trying to adapt the Biblical text to fit with secular scientific assumptions. Modern scholars struggle with the lifespans of the patriarchs because of an assumption that people cannot live that long (which is influenced by evolutionary thinking).
The work isn’t good if it leads others astray. The Bible doesn’t lie. These ages are literal. It’s usually man that gets it all wrong.
Probably any relevance for ages of the Patriarchs given, and how we understand ages in years (365 1/4 days) that we use today.