Think the Thought of Not Thinking
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- čas přidán 17. 07. 2023
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Dogen seemed to be a strong advocate for sitting zazen.
Uh, yeh.
Probably the most valuable video I’ve seen in a while. I’m happy you’re back from the advaita stream. Although this „in non-thinking there is someone and that someone is relying upon me“ sounds a lot like the advaita stuff. The main and very important difference is „my Zazen is my Zazen“. In advaita you just visit a guru or try to inquire/contemplate but there is no real practice.
The translation „being before thought“ really struck me. For me it is so much more tangible than „thinking before thinking“ or „think the thought of non-thinking“. To actually „be“ before the thought comes up is a pure golden advice (at least for me).
It explains something about Dogen‘s chapter Gyoji in the Shobogenzo where he sais: „Do not hope for the great awakening! The great awakening is nothing but your daily tea and rice. Do not desire non-awakening either. Non-awakening is a precious pearl in the hair braid.“ - so awakening, non awakening, half awakening, what so ever, are all just ideas. Although it might sound noble to live a life with no desire for awakening, this too becomes a precious pearl (or a thought that dresses up as a non-thought) that we hide and still attach to. He continues: „Precisely because the principle is clear, to free ourselves from possessing, we must also free ourselves from not possessing.“ which is another Koan for me but beautifully describes the „state“ before thought arises.
I talked to a zen master a couple years ago who explained why it is so difficult to do. It’s because the „I“ which we refer to all the time is a product of thought. That means, to „be before thought“, we take the risk of not forming an identity. And that’s scary. And if you take it too far, you end up in Neo-Advaita where everyone seems to suffer from depersonalization. This is where zen is really handy because after zazen you actually DO stuff. Cleaning, cooking, washing and so on. You root this „risk of not forming an identity“ in an activity which forced you to cultivate this exact identity.
Now I gotta clean something.
Yeah, that "being before thought" reminds me of Zen Master Seung Sahn's "before thinking."
Tang Dynasty Zen Master *Hui Hai* says,
_"Right thinking is "thinking and yet not thinking" which is ( often termed as) Non-thinking."_
Zen Master *Seung Sahn* says,
_"Non-thinking" is the "Don't know (Mind)"_ he often says in his talks.
Thinking about this, I think we have a tendency to over think and complicate and explain simple concepts. When we sit, we know intuitively when we are thinking and when we aren’t. The part where we “intuitively know,” is it.
Zazen is my zazen. Yup. The mountain still state. I’ve found that no matter how well this concept is explained that people still miss the point that zazen is of importance in our practice. You gotta sit. Thank for the video. Viva Ziggy!
Think-focus on that what you do not need to think about, because it’s already there before thinking.
Excellent! One of your best videos.
It seems to me that the intention here is well worded. You contemplate what a state of no contemplation would be. To see that thoughts arise regardless. And then once you can see that clearly, you can remove your attention from thought even though they will pass by in the periphery
Focus the mind on the thing that isn't thinking but is awareness
In my opinion, the version Dogen wrote in 1233 was his attempt to include lay practitioners in his teachings. Later, once he had founded Eiheiji Temple, he had other fish to fry.
There is a long history behind his earlier version:
Heze Shen-hui [684-758]: founder of the Heze School of Chan
- Carl Bielefeldt (1988) “Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation” p. 93
“Whenever a thought occurs to the mind, be aware of it. When what has occurred to the mind disappears, the awareness of it vanishes of its own accord. This is no-thought.”
Guifeng Zongmi: (780-841): the 5th patriarch of Huayan Buddhism & a patriarch of Heze Chan
- Broughton, J. L. (2009). “Zongmi on Chan” p. 87-88
“If a thought arises, be aware of it; once you are aware of it, it will disappear. The excellent gate of practice lies here alone.“
Ch'ang-lu Tsung-tse's (circa 1100): author of an influential meditation manual
- Broughton, J. L. (2009). “Zongmi on Chan” p. 83
“If a thought arises, be aware of it; once you are aware of it, it will be lost. After you have for a long time forgotten objective supports, you will spontaneously become integrated. This is the essential art of Chan sitting."
Dōgen Zenji - The Tenpuku version of the Fukan zazen gi: 1233
- Carl Bielefeldt (1988) “Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation” p. 93
“Whenever a thought occurs, be aware of it; as soon as you are aware of it, it will vanish. If you remain for a long period forgetful of objects, you will naturally become unified. This is the essential art of zazen. Zazen is the is the dharma gate of great ease and joy.”
That’s how I got to the ‘still-still state’: following that approach all the way down the rabbit hole to Wonderland.
One additional aspect might be worth noting:
Traditionally, people in Far East seem(ed) to think of "thoughts" as some entities ("flies", "birds", "ghosts", and so forth), crossing mind-space - and sometimes they understood them even like some "strange, eerie, otherworldly aliens", attacking the collective mind of the group (of practicioners), ideally prompting collective "mental anti-measures" (Ger.: ´geistige, geisteskräftige Gegenanstrengungen´) - which even makes some phenomenological sense.
There is even an old German song, in which - mutatis mutandis - some similar "visions" of "what´s going on in mind" are expressed (paraphrased):
"Thoughts are free, who can guess them [i.e., ´their true nature´, to give it a slightly Kantian turn]? They are passing us by, flying like shadows in the night. No human being can [really] know them, no hunter [really] shoot them, using powder and lead. Thoughts are free. [...]
(Ger.: "Die Gedanken sind frei, wer kann sie erraten? Sie fliegen vorbei, wie nächtliche Schatten. Kein Mensch kann sie wissen, kein Jäger erschießen, mit Pulver und Blei, die Gedanken sind frei. [...])
That´s a far cry, I dare to say, from our standard understanding of cognition, informed by positive, empirical sciences, nowadays.
It seems to suggest something like: Thoughts are hosts for our - in principal transcendent, pristine - soul(s). And it is will-power - which is ideally virtuous, or even "pure energy" (or so) - that allows us to deal with them.
So far some hermeneutics from my side - with a caveat/disclaimer: this is not meant to present any "ultimate explanation" in any way, shape, or form. But it might help for some better understanding.
@@gunterappoldt3037 The way you transitioned from describing how people in Far East visualized thoughts to how an old German songs expressed similar "visions" blew me away for a moment.
Ok, here’s the strange thing: As I ‘went down the rabbit hole’ of letting the contents of my thoughts fade away, I came to a stage of where I felt thoughts (1) arise, (2) pass-by, and (3) fade-away (without knowing the content of the thought). This phenomenon is actually well described in the “The Awakening of Faith in Mahayana”, and to a lesser degree in the “The Sutra of Complete Enlightenment.” I have come to the conclusion that this is how the (transcendent, pristine) Non-Discriminating Mind characterizes/perceives thoughts. Once you become aware of thoughts in this way you are just one step away from reaching unadulterated no-thought. I would describe no-thought as pure perception (of the constancy (invariant nature) of what is right in front of you).
If you look into how modern neural-net based AI actually processes information you would be very hard pressed to relate it to “our standard understanding of cognition, informed by positive, empirical sciences, nowadays.” Thought is sequential, but perception occurs in parallel. Or as “The Sutra of Complete Enlightenment” puts it, awareness is like empty space: it’s impartial, equal, and ever unmoving.
@@JimTempleman By the modern "standard attitude" I meant, namely: We, today, assume with some good reasons, that thinking/cognition is related to the brain. For many traditional people, the crucial function(s) of the brain is(/are) unknown. For example, at the time of René Déscartes people/scholars debated if the function of the brain was simply the cooling down of blood - however, maybe, the soul sits in the amygdala (pineal gland).
Therefore, I assume that Dogen Kigen had a different understanding of the "roots" and "ways" of thinking/cognition than the average "modern man" - and this would be relevant for doing hermeneutical work (which in principle automaticall starts by simply reading any translation, or even the original versions).
Furthermore, I assume that a phenomenological approach, starting with "thick descriptions", can help bridging the different "cultural codes" - and even diverse "universalisms", if there should be such - but that´s another story.
P.S.: Corrigendum: After I re-read my first comment, I noticed that I somehow twisted the old "guest-host" (客主) model, according to which thoughts are seen as the "guest" (客) in the house (樓 [?]) of the "host" (主) - whereby the latter, according to Zen-terminology, might also be called, e.g., the "man with no rank" (sometimes also: ´...with rank´ [When both aspects meet?]), as Master Línjì/Rinzai did.
@@gunterappoldt3037 I was going to say that once one buys into the “consciousness only” approach, it doesn’t really matter where you envision thinking to occur. But then I came across this:
Leah Hobert, Emanuela Binello (May 2017) Trepanation in Ancient China in
World Neurosurgery. Volume 101, Pages 451-456
“a thorough analysis of the available archeological and literary evidence reveals that trepanation was widely practiced throughout China thousands of years ago. A significant number of trepanned Chinese skulls have been unearthed showing signs of healing and suggesting that patients survived after surgery. Trepanation was likely performed for therapeutic and spiritual reasons. Medical and historical works from Chinese literature contain descriptions of primitive neurosurgical procedures, including stories of surgeons, such as the legendary Hua Tuo, and surgical techniques used for the treatment of brain pathologies.”
They performed neurosurgical procedures for spiritual reasons! Now who is most committed to believing consciousness lies in the brain?
I’m all for your hermeneutical approach.
When you first stated “Thoughts are hosts for our souls” I wasn’t sure if you were referring to the "guest-host" model, in which thoughts are seen as the "guest" in the inn of the "host". I like that model and would equate the Non-Discriminating Mind to the Host. (I’m rather Caodong/Soto.)
If awareness is like empty space and is ever unmoving, then it’s like the host. The trick is to figure out what they mean by “unmoving”. I firmly believe that it means perceptual constancy (invariance). Others will say that they did not have that concept, but I say that they did have that concept and referred to it as ‘unmoving’. The concept is a little bit at odds with the Buddhist holy-of-holies: impermanence. So I wonder if it came from the Daoist side of the house? What do you think?
Chapter 16:
Empty yourself of everything.
Let the mind rest at peace.
The ten thousand things rise & fall while the Self watches their return.
They grow and flourish and then return to the source.
Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature.
The way of nature is unchanging.
Knowing constancy is insight.
...
Been contemplating and meditating on rhe the concept of "Emptiness" for today, so this "still, still state" discussion dovetails perfectly for me.
Mahalos! 🤙☸️
My dog also has this fear of fireworks and thunder. It helps to build him some kind of ad-hoc tent insde a house (but he is shaking anyway). Last time I tried a new thing - I went to a window and then to a door, opened it and started barking. Then he started barking with me, and once or twice he came closer (but stopped shaking).
(To paraphrase)
Tang Dynasty Zen Master *_Hui Hai_* says,
_"Right thinking" is "thinking and yet not thinking" which is ( often termed as) Non-thinking."_
Zen Master *_Seung Sahn_* says,
_"Non-thinking" is the "Don't know (Mind)"_ he often says in his talks.
Tang Dynasty 6th Patriarch *_Hui Neng_* says,
_"In non-thinking, (is pure) awareness, at this moment in which neither thoughts are arising nor ceasing."_
😊🙏🙇♂️🌷
You need to coax Ziggy out gently. Start by sitting just by your opened front door, so he can see outside. Have him sit with you. Wait a while. When he’s comfortable, go outside your door but don’t leave your home. Again have him sit with you. When he’s comfortable just being out your house, trying walking a short distance together. If he’s uncomfortable at any point, don’t force him, just reassure him and try again later. He’ll come round. Best of luck to you and Ziggy!
Thank you!
Thank you - especially for sharing what your typical Zazen experience is like!
One of your best videos/talks to date Brad … really meaningful. Love the longer length too! Thanks!
Yeah he really means it😅
Thanks Brad.
Good Talk.
Did he really say stupid?
hahahaha
Based and big raft pilled 😂
Seriously tho, this is the least esoteric and most useful talk on that non-thinking instruction I’ve ever come across-
Thank you very much for this.
Also this is kind of like the whole cat watching the mouse hole thing right
Nice explanation!
Beautiful mate
Great video.
Some dogs prefer dog company. They feel safer. So get him to walk with another dog. I have a dog who will become depressed if she is all alone with me. However if this behavior is after your long vacation, Ziggy maybe thinking if i stay inside, they wont dissappear again.
I enjoy your youtude videos. This morning after listening to this several days ago, the title struck me. Of course, the intention 'to think the thought of not thinking' can't be just another goal to directly stop the mind's thoughts. The myth of slaying Medusa can be seen to relate to this: "Perseus used Athena's polished shield to view the reflection of Medusa's face to avoid her petrifying gaze while he beheaded her with a harpe, an adamantine sword." -from google To look directly at Medusa turned you to stone, rending you ineffective to say the least. More importantly and more to the point, I recalled this from p41 of Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind: "To stop your mind does not mean to stop the activities of mind. It means your mind pervades your whole body." Sitting and tending to the posture as need be, as it were, allows our sentience to settle into and around the outlines of the body. In this way we are not concerned with directly trying to change or stop thought/s and there is a settling such that the mind settles itself or "pervades your whole body" of its own accord as we simply sit tending to posture when need be. The mind pervades the whole body could also be called "whole body awareness" The next line in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind is: "Your mind follows your breathing." My sense of this line is it is not something we need to try to do, rather once "the mind pervades the whole body", there comes a point when the mind spontaneously will 'follow your breathing'. If could say that this happening is a mark of sitting if we were interested in such talk as that. At any rate, we should be able to verify all this in our own experience, if we so wish. Rumi: "Be dumb for the sake of experiment". (translation by Idries Shah) Another hint for greater context that can be implicitly helpful is: the body is form, and form is emptiness, and emptiness is form.....etc. In my tradition they say a similar kind of thing: "Your body is the unlimited matrix of all divine possibility appearing in form, here in this world of form." Rumi in the book "Discourses of Rumi" p 33 says: "The body is like Mary. Every one of us has a Jesus (your true nature) within him, but until the pangs manifest in us our Jesus is not born." As the cowboy way says "Happy trails 'til we meet again".
By the way, you mentioned the bad blood or whatever to call it between your teacher and Cross. As I recall it, lots of if not all of it played out online, on your teacher’s blog, mainly. Cross was all mad about having his position during zazen corrected, saying it violated the Alexander Technique or some such. It’s been a while and I’m only an online kibitzer, but that is my recollection. I remember thinking Cross must be insane.
I shouldn't comment. Mike Cross is a different sort of person. His diligence in translating Dogen is astonishing. He really did a great job. But I think it's possible that what made him able to do such a thorough job on the translation may have been the same thing that made him seem ... that made him seem the way he seemed to you.
Ooh how fascinating. I am a student of Alexander technique and I am not a student of zen but it seemed to me that the instructions I've seen about the mechanics of sitting zazen seem to conflict with the Alexander technique influence somewhat. Is there more information on this?
@@madameblatvatsky Could you please tell us how the instructions you've "seen about the mechanics of sitting zazen seem to conflict with the Alexander technique"? The fact of your being aware of both means that you have more insight in the matter than the rest of us here.
At first this seems a rather odd point on which for Mike Cross to have "drawn his line in the sand" after working so extensively with Gudo Nishijima. But who knows what the Alexander technique really meant to him?
@@JimTempleman I have never done zazen under the supervision of a responsible zen teacher, or any teacher, only by looking at CZcams videos. What I gather is that you need to sit quite upright and in a fairly "firm" posture. From Alexander technique, my body will tend to let go of any "holding" so I think my posture in sitting would seem quite slouchy to a zen teacher but I really don't know anything. I was trying to work out what Alexander technique is but I'm none the wiser even after taking lessons for some time. I was just curious what the issue might have been for Cross and whether it had any bearing on my sense of some overlapping elements between zazenning and Alexander and some incongruities. Nothing to do, nothing to do...
@@madameblatvatsky Thank you for your reply. In zazen you are to sit upright, yet remain relaxed and mentally alert. The relaxation should maintain a balance between tension and slackness.
It's almost funny, but in zazen your mind is supposed to "let go of any holding", in your mind rather than your body. I can see how visible slouching would be frowned upon in a zendo. I have no idea of where one would draw the line between relaxation and letting go of holding a posture in the Alexander Technique.
Hard to imagine why someone would be unwilling to shift gears to perform two different tasks, but I'm sure he had his reasons.
Thank you for giving me a clue as to what the issue was.
That makes me think.
Ouch
Could "think of not thinking" be phrased that way to mean having the mind clear of activity but not to confuse that state of clarity with the state of being unconscious say like in swoon, being knocked out from a blow or deep sleep?
Like projecting a mental image of a blank screen onto the screen of consciousness.
Come to Melbourne, Australia bro. I'll host you.
thank you for your instructions on “thinking the concrete state of non-thinking”. you competently handle an impossible task! this task of investigating the thing that is there behind all the thinking, maintaining and relying on it-is this basically a form of 话头 “hua tou” meditation?
If it's useful to think of it that way, you can. Personally I don't usually think in those terms.
@@HardcoreZen Instructions in "hua tou meditation" often sound like it's a matter of following a train of thought to some endpoint, and on second thought what you're talking about must not be that. But if it's more like getting yourself to a certain "vantage point" (where the concrete state of non thinking is there "before you") and then taking a "look", then maybe that makes sense. Anyways this video was very useful in making me think I have some grasp of "thinking the state of nonthinking". It seems different from the "drop off body and mind" instruction which I'm not sure I get at all.
Question for you Brad. What does Dogen (or anyone else within zen or Buddhism) have to say about dealing with desire? I specifically am referring to bodily desire and not just how desire is viewed through the Zen lens but more so practical tips on dealing with it. Is Zen practice enough? Ayya Khema mentioned trying to view the object of your desire as a set of teeth (thereby seeing them as a fleshbag and nothing more). I somewhat see the point of the exercise but was wondering what others might say. Thanks!
Hinduism is full of advice about how to deal with bodily (sexual) desire. Forms of Buddhism other than Zen have a lot of that stuff too. I remember some story about a woman who was the object of lust of some monk or someone. She stopped eating and saved up all her poop and pee. After a while she was rail thin and no longer beautiful at which point she presented all her poop and pee to the monk and said, "This is what you were lusting after." Early Buddhism has lots of advice about visualizing the objects of your desires in a similar way.
But that's not Dogen or Zen. Dogen doesn't say anything along the lines of what you're asking, and neither do most Zen teachers that I know of.
Although I read something by Kosho Uchiyama (a contemporary Zen teacher, he passed away in the 1980's I think) in which he describes a situation where he became extremely infatuated with a woman who came to his temple. He says he waited it out. He knew the desire would wane eventually. If I remember correctly, he said it took something like 3 or 4 years. During those years he made no effort to satisfy his desire for her. He just waited for the desire to pass. I wish I knew what book this story was in. Maybe it was in the book Opening the Hand of Thought?
Good luck!
@@HardcoreZen I actually think it was the Teachings of Homeless Kodo where he wrote about that.
@@BobCarsonsMMA It could be!
@@HardcoreZen
Love story about "waiting it out" no matter who the original author. I have a tendency to think whatever I am feeling now I will feel forever unless some problem is solved. It's true that 99% of the time, the problem stops being a problem before anything is logically solved. It's like I want to 'level up' my spiritual oneness (maybe not correct phrase here..) to be OVER said problem but sitting with it may be the answer.
I recently read a book on E. Graham Howe ("A Druid in Psychologists Clothing") and resonated quite well with his thoughts and feelings on various topics. I bring this up solely because the story of "waiting it out" reminded me on a blurb he wrote on depression:
"First and foremost the patient must be protected against himself and kept alive, because however low he feels himself to be, the hands of the clock will one day bring him up and round again. How long that time will be we cannot tell, but - and this is the second cause of encouragement - it is a characteristic of depression that it is a temporary phase followed in course of time by its conclusion. Depression, like any other disease, is like a clock. It may be fast or slow, but the hands are always moving."
Also found the text prior to this worth sharing for anyone interested: "Depression is an attempt at cure, an attempt at self-cure; and it is necessary phase in the patient's recovery. That is to say, it is not simply a bad thing. It is a real thing and has a real purpose. It is the expression of a real need. Negative as it may seem to be, the patient has not only been brought face to face with his own feelings, but pushed right under and overwhelmed by them. He is, as it were, swimming around in his own unconscious depths. He needs holding to it, keeping there; and that may prove difficult, because a negative attitude towards life finds itself intensified during depression into the will to suicide or ultimate escape from every unbearable problem."
In a sense, it may be useful to see infatuation through the same eyes... overwhelmed by it - swimming around in our own unconscious depths, but eventually whatever put you there fades away as everything else does. Simply using this as a reminder that everything is impermanent brings its all back around for me.
I appreciate your time and response Brad, hope all is well.
Have you found any suitable answers to your question?
Some use the technique of transforming your desire into repulsion.
They do this by imagining the thing that is appealing to you and seeing all the disgusting parts of it.
It can work but I feel it's not as powerful enough when needed and it's really easy to just go back to ignoring the impermanence of the flesh that is attractive.
A better way or method is based on chasing contentment. You go down the rabbit hole of why you are seeking the thing you find so desirable. What is it you are trying to obtain by having it? What is your motivation?
This active pursuit if you can honestly examine it and have courage to dive deep into your mind to find the source of why you "need" to obtain the object of your desire. Will reveal to you a key to "curing" the desire.
I think, what Brad explained about FU-SHIRIYO goes perfectly unanimous with what Nisargadatta explained as The Presence, which is the Real Nature of Mind.
But, maybe we should look for the use of that tern FU-SHIRIYO in Chinese pre-Dogen texts and find out what the meaning it had there and to what Indian concept it corresponds, because we all know that Bodhidharma came from India.
If this goes from the Buddha himself, then what is the Buddha's word for this? (in Induan sources I didn't meet that concept of "non-thinking", but it may be some other concept which had so reincarnated in Chinese language)
How do you think the unthinkable?
With an itheberg!
I don't think we can look at, or objectify in any way, the witness that sees the thoughts. In my experience, when I try to objectify it, that whole act, including the witness that I am trying to be aware of, just becomes something else in the purview of the "real", unobjectified, witness.
How can the still still state still the still state if the still state is still? 🤔
Do you see any issues with my personal interpretation of "let go of rumination while being consciously aware?" That may expose my multi-denominational allegiance to Mahayana, Theravada and Therapyana dharma (dhamma)
You could work with that interpretation.
@@HardcoreZen I appreciate these videos.
When I look at your books on music behind you, I am like wish you would do some off topic videos on your non zen books
Hi Brad, question:
I get the putting the attention back inwards towards that thing that is aware...
But , you seem to question it and investigate it ?
For me, putting my attention on it, is quite different than asking what is it ? And investigating it. Which sounds more like active inquiring than "just sitting".
In the end, the "just sitting" thing, seems to be a very inaccurate description of what zazen is.
You seem to be doing A LOT during your zazen.
I mean with your awareness/attention.
When you notice you're lost in contemplation, you adjust your posture and bring your attention back in.
That's a doing, isn't it ?
#confused. Please clarify.
I really think the "just sitting" is the physical appearance side of it.
Inside there's clearly a navigation going on.
At least at some moments.
Not even Mount Fuji really just sits there - although "he" might be "sitting" in a deeper sense (at least hardcore Shontôists might assume so, geologists, ditto...).
Sorry, couldn´t resist to throw this bonmot in.
distinguish thinking
I like to do laying down and going go sleep "zazen" after my nightly regular classic vanilla with no sugar additives sitting zazen. On fhe subject of how peoplw do zazen anyway.
Imagine you're a dog and fireworks brought snausages or juicy rawhide with a bit of meat still on it - like a meat explosion from a successful hunt. Maybe that would change things. Fear and excitement are similar: I wonder if it is a bit scary (but exciting) for a canine to hunt? Brad, are you what Ziggy would consider to be in his wolf pack? If so, maybe you can lead by example and courageously go outside and invite him assuringly.
The contradictions are on purpose and constantly present.
Is the translation by Yasuda Joshu roshi and Anzan Hoshin sensei in print?
I don't know. I found it on the website Terebess terebess.hu/zen/dogen/Fukanzazengi.html
@@HardcoreZen Thanks Brad, that Web site seems like a Zen treasure trove!
Simple,don't think.
people are asking me recently why I don't open my eyes all the way anymore... I have no idea why I do this now... seems like you have the same affliction... probably to do with all the zazen...
I always got asked that. To me, it feels like my eyes are fully open.
Only 10 or 15 years?
So with your dog, try sitting with him in your backyard. Even if you have to force him out if he is with you for some time, he'll forget about the fireworks and adjust.
I'll see if that works. Thank you!
Sorry to hear about the Ziggster. Have you tried the CBD?
We've used doggy melatonin treats. They help temporarily.
Ok it's not about thinking. Just sitting. What's the fuss about this video. Yep awareness is always there only not when your thinking. How difficult can it be.😅