Happened to a high school friend back in the 70’s. I put fuel in his gyro before going home. Reaching home, I received the phone call that he had gone in.
It doesn't matter how expensive the aircraft or who makes it (commercial or not), when you are outside it's flight envelope, you are at risk of being mailed back to earth with a R.I.P postage stamp.
For obvious reasons, it is painful to watch but at the same time, it is incredible useful to be able to study what manoeuvres lead to dangerous situations. Sharing these observations contributes to more pilots flying more safely. Thank you so much for sharing these videos 🙏
As someone who wants to fly one day, and possibly own a gyro, this was indeed a reality check. no matter how much "time" I have in my simulators and games, none of that would have helped me as much as your video has. I still wish to learn and build one of these machines to fly, but I'll do so with this stark reminder to fly safe.
You'll be fine if you just take your time and fly "normally" i.e. no messing around. Always err on the side of caution and seek the advice of your local instructor. Remember the first 1000hrs are the hardest and you only tend to get to crash an aircraft once in your lifetime!
I’m glad you mentioned about unloading the rotors as this occurs with microlight trikes as well. A typical incident occurs when the pilot entered a fast climb and attempts to level out by pulling the bar in sharply, unloading the wing and possibly some negative g. I saw a fatal accident where the pilot pulled the bar in firmly after a 45 degree climb and ended tumbling three consecutive rotations before hitting the ground. We also are trained to throttle back, maintain the current angle of attack and allow the wing nose to drop approaching stall. Followed by an increase in throttle and level flight resumed. Thanks for your clear and concise information on rotorcraft.
I did six hours training in a giro. The continual emphasis by the instructor was never ever put the machine into negative g and throttle off before leveling off.
@@rdaystrom4540 Yeah, it´s greek, and in greek it´s written with an "Y", but still, in romanian languages like Italian/spanish (but not in french, I think), they write it with an "I"... Romans would do anything to display themselves as non-Greeks, cause they were fed up with others believing them to be also Greeks, so, they changed stuff delivered to them by the Greeks, in order to gain an own identity (at the same time "Rome" itself being a greek word too, meaning "Strength", of course ;-)
@Gratte Burnes - yes, but as the video also points out, the pilots control movements weren't that abrupt. I was amazed at how easy it seemed for him to get into that situation. If the pilot had jammed the control forward at the top of the climb, this would have made sense but that's not what he did. I think it also speaks to the "high thrust line vs center line thrust" arguments I've heard through the years related to the pusher style gyros like this one. I've heard a lot of pilots continue to argue that high thrust line configurations aren't a problem. Quote, "They've been flown safely for years." That may be true in and of itself but I think this proves that they're an inherently unsafe design regardless of how many hours they've been flown. One way or another, it's just a matter of time.
the pilot was going up with a steep angle and then he level the gyro but at that point the engine could not push the gyro and at the end the blades hit the rudder cause of the flapping
@@Thebasicmaker - He pulled up steeply and then pushed over to level the aircraft. When he did that, he off loaded the rotor and the high thrust line configuration, still at a relatively high power setting, started rotating the nose downward, hense the term, "power push over." The engine thrust may not be adding much in the way of airspeed at this point, but it is most definitely still pushing the gyro. The pilot eventually pulled back on the stick to try to stop that motion, a purely instinctive reaction but if you watch the video carefully, especially the slow motion part at the end, the rotor never impacted the rudder. There is some small part that flies off the machine just before impact but it's not coming from the rudder area. I'm not sure what that is.
Excellent work. Very important to show this. This is the classic negative g zoom then push over. For others reading comments this is also possible at very high airspeeds particularly in a light machine with big rotors as your disk gets very low. At high speeds it might be the tiniest of nudges that results in by bunting it over. Fly slower than the top speed unless you are very experienced.
@@shaneconnolly6673 Right or left? Yes that's possible the blades respond because the teeter hinge is off set so fore aft a nose down pitch won't do anything (for that microsecond) until the blade turns 90 degrees where the angle will effect it. So a pitch to the right will if the teeter hinge is aligned will not impact until it turns 90 degrees when the twist will start to impact, and pitch the up on the retreating side but the advancing will start to descent. (If I have that right in my head). However I'd suggest if your that flat that this can have an impact you should be flying slower. No one wants to say that though because we want short take off, short landing low speed performance and high speed performance, sensitivity and stability and we can't have it all. If people really want to fly faster they shouldn't be flying with big high pitched rotors. No one wants to say that. Fortunately for me my seat belt stopped me flying too fast. Anything over 60mph the ends of seatbelts would start flicking my nipples at about 1000rpm ;) Very painful and as I'm not into that I tended to fly below 60mph. My gyro was very stable and nice up to 80mph (never flew it faster than that) but didn't like the seatbelt above that speed. ;)
Thanks Cameron. Yes HARD stick movement to the RIGHT will cause a nose down tilt. -aka UNLOADING THE ROTOR !! at high speed. Experienced gyro pilots don't notice this gyro effect- they just automatically compensate. (In a similar way riders of BMW horizon twin motorcycles compensate for the torque reaction of the motor & don t notice it .)
@@shaneconnolly6673 Hi Shane I'm not sure you'd feel it. theres a difference between the disk pitching and an individual rotor pitching - relative to the teeter hub. Any movement within the teeter hub will not be felt (unless it exceeds the teeter stops) because differences in lift will be automatically compensated for - that's what the teeter hinge does. It is critical at the point of unloading. I noticed this because after starting my flight training in ultralights for about 10 hours I shifted to gyros years latter a mate had brought the very ultralight I was training in. He took me up for a fly and said "you want a go" of course I said yes. So we are climbing over the airstrip and hit a thermal under the left wing. "you going to correct that?" we were flying left wing high for a second, "Oh yes" I correct we hit another on the right wing "you going to correct for that?", "Oh yes". I then wondered why my instincts were off. I did fine the rest of the flight but wondered why the hell wasn't I correcting. I took my gyro up after that flight and payed attention. Flying through similar thermals I wasn't doing anything. Because I didn't need to. I worked it out. The teeter hinge is lifting on the advancing side with reference to the difference in airspeed. It lifts washes off angle of attack the retreating blade drops increasing its angle off attack we don't feel this because its doing it automatically. Having been trained and an instructor in gyrogliders and many times flow the whole length of the strip hands off I know there isn't any torque effect of compensation for this required. As a disk the lift is equal even though the angle is oscillating up and down. Now in regards to a thermal under one side say. what will the blade do? Well lets say its on the advancing side. The advancing blade has more lift (due to the thermal) so it just lifts as it does so the teeter hinge is pushing the retreating blade down increasing its angle of attack. So you don't need to touch the stick because 360 degrees around the teeter hinge compensates automatically. Now fore aft other forces can come into play. If you hit a thermal although the lift is equallised (increased) across the disk as the disk is angled back say 9 degrees that lift will be increased so the effect (the moment) will change the relationship between engine thrust and lift and CG. Of course correct down thrust or compensation of CG vs thrustline will fix this. So the biggest thermals I ever hit pitched the nose down perhaps an inch? go out of the thermal and it would pitch nose up about an inch max. This was a standard Bensen geometry machine no stabiliser. However remove the downthrust and every change of power will result in having to input a stick input. Generally though I realised I didn't ever fly by jabbing the stick to compensate I largely left it alone other than to adjust speed and direction. If I hit a thermal I left it alone and just adjusted speed. This is a long way of saying I'm not sure you'd feel any effects of the rotor responding to teetering down but yes I think if you are one the margin the teeter could well cause one blade to suddenly drop below the airflow and unload. I don't think it likely you'd have any warning, I suspect (although I don't plan to test this) you'd be flying and suddenly bang! Bang! BANG! you're now tumbling with wreckage strewn behind you. Best thing would be to be no-where near this point. Cheers
Yes I understand that the teeter action results in no torque reaction to be felt by the pilot. I certainly felt the rotor axis tilt when I first landed a gyro. Nose down caused a bank to the left. No doubt as a novice I was "jabbing" the stick a bit. I seem to recall proving this with a rotating dowel - No aero effect ! Yes the gyro effect precedes the stick movement of the rotor by 90 degrees. Cheers Shane@@cameronlapworth2284
I think the original La Cierva way of making autogyros, front engine and prop, with empennage, just an airplane with a rotor instead of wings, is much more secure and controllable. Plus the prop helps the rotor to rotate for easier take off.
I used to fly an R/C model like that, motor up front, 2 fixed counter-rotating rotors on a fixed axis, with (oversized) elevators and rudder for control. Even at low airspeed the aircraft still had decent control authority because of the prop wash over the control surfaces, and that has gotten me out of a few dicey situations. Though I'm not sure how it would compare to a pusher prop config.
He got rid of the wings because using proper cyclic control allowed full control to zero airspeed landings and there had been a number of accidents on landing. There is nothing wrong with the stability of gyros if you understand their limitations. Unlike fixed wings which have good stick fixed stability. Gyros have superior stick free stability ie. Don't touch the controls and it stays put. But unlike fixed wings they have shitty stick fixed stability. That is touch the controls and they'll start turning and keep turning you need to put in an active correction unlike say a Cessna which will sort itself out. Combine that with in light gyros feather light responsiveness and in all gyros insignificant control input for a very big input and you have if not trained carefully a recipe for disaster. I used to train people in gyrogliders. And I'd get guys with 1000's of hours in Cessnas or GA aircraft and they would have the stick in a death grip and would over control like nobodies business. And that was dual solo the gyro was even more sensitive. But once you learned to fly by pressure no X amount of stick deflection it becomes natural and easy. Once you had them solo in the glider their chances of dying from over controlling were near zero. In fact no one I ever trained or trained by the guy who taught me died in that manner ever. Yes there were people who did stupid things like try to fly through power lines etc. But not piloting issues as such. Because the teeter system automatically compensates from side of to side (dissymetry of lift) it also compensates for any thermals etc which would in a fixed wing force you to apply an input to straighten out. A properly set up gyro (correct downthrust etc). will even in massive thermals just climb and descend without needing corrective inputs. But put in an input and it will respond instantly. So learn to respect it and it will fly safely and smoothly even in conditions most pilots would stay grounded in. But its not a fixed wing and training is very unusual to do it properly. They are their own thing.
And of course avoid high thrust-line gyrocopters(engine thrust above aircraft CG). If adding power causes a nose down movement you are in a high thrust-line aircraft and unloading the rotor(lowering rotor thrust) at a high power setting(high speed and turbulence) is hazardous to your health... A centerline or below centerline thrust aircraft is way safer as an inadvertent rotor unloading such as can happen in turbulence either induces no pitching moment or a positive one which tends to re-load the rotor...
When in doubt lower the power to idle and keep stick pulled back. Dont fly the parabola. His zoom climb was actually pretty pathetic and it ran out of energy at a fairly low altitude and he has no Horizontal tail either, but even so pulling stick back and closing throttle would have punished the gyro but kept him alive.
Enjoyed many flights in my Bensen, towed, and then as a BM8, which I have tucked in the basement, control input is different than a fixed-wing and explained in the original factory manual.
These are always so sad to watch. There were multiple safe ways out of that situation (chopping throttle at the top of the climb with stick aft until the aircraft settles, bank the aircraft and pull the stick back to turn out of it), but the instinctive thing to do (push the stick forward) is the one thing that will kill you. Zoom-climbs aren't inherently dangerous on their own, as in they won't kill you on their own, but one wrong move (which also happens to be the most intuitive move) can make you very dead, very fast. A very nasty peculiarity in an aircraft type which is usually so intuitive to fly.
I always find it unfurtionate that in any video like this, almost every comment are just various forms of saying that it was pilot error. Thats usually true. The vast majority of aviation fatalities are caused by pilot error. But we all already know that- The reason commentors always point it out is to preserve their natural but dangerous delusion that they are in less danger than the victim/that they *would be* in less danger (in the case of people who don't fly, but want to.) Pilot error is unavoidable. You can reduce the chance of you screwing up, but no matter what, we are not computers. No matter what, you are one poor decision away from being in one of these videos, and that is a truth that you should embrace in order to reduce the chances as much as possible of you becoming a statistic. You can of course die while driving, running, riding a bike, even just walking or while doing nothing at all. But certain actions are more dangerous than others. Almost all forms of aviation are more dangerous than walking or riding a bike, for instance. Pretending like that risk doesn't exist is just making you more likely to become a victim.
You just don’t want one like this... The heaviest part on a small gyro like this is the pilot. A humans CG is somewhere in the gut. Note the engine on this craft is up around shoulder height on the pilot and most all of his body weight as well as most of the aircraft structure weight is below that engine thrust line. A high thrust line gyro is an accident waiting to happen and requires constant attention to the details of flying, and is not a lot of fun to fly in rough air. It is also the prime reason IMO for the small gyro’s questionable rep and safety record... A zero thrust line or low thrust line aircraft is way more stable/self correcting and a lot more fun to fly.
@@esau82 couldn’t tell you off the top of my head as I haven’t looked at gyros in years. Typically for smaller single seat open frame gyro’s you want the propeller hub to be at or near where your butt/hips would be when seated, but there are exceptions to this as it is the total CG of the aircraft when the pilot is onboard, so looks can be deceiving. There was an ultralight gyro called a Gyro-bee that you could get free plans for which looked very similar to the one in this video, but was actually very near centerline thrust. Usually though, it will appear as if something has been done to raise the pilot seat/pilot weight. It is really a question you must ask the designer/manufacturer. “is the fully loaded aircraft center of gravity above or below the engine/propeller line of thrust” it should be a question they can answer clearly and quickly with something like “The aircraft CG is 1” above engine thrust line” if they cannot answer the question immediately or tell you it is not important, don’t walk, but run away... you can gauge also by how long the manufacturer has been in business, a company like sportcopter dot com embraced the proper configuration early on in their designs and hav an excellent record, note the raised pilot areas in their design...
I lost a friend to a gyrocopter accident ten years ago.. I begged him to sell it. They found his body a half mile short of the airport runway. Neverrr heard the cause. Did you know that Igor Benson was an ordained minister? No doubt so that he could give last rites with his machines.
Has anyone attempted an electronic anti-bunt control? It seems like it would be a fairly simple safety measure. A micro-controller / accelerometer / gyro combo that simply takes control of throttle and stick position in events of low / negative G's.
Not that I know of and for general aviation it becomes too complex to maintain, check and regulate for use. This is fundamentally why you see things on drones you can buy for $20 that seem amazing - height holding in a stable hover being one = that you don't see on $2m helicopters because a $20 drone it doesn't matter if they haven't thought how to maintain the system and if it fails it hits the wall in your front room, not wipes out a crew, pax and people on the ground.
Thanks for this. Tell me -- what if the aircraft had been higher in altitude and not so close to the ground? Would they have had time to recover? Or was this totally unrecoverable, regardless of altitude? Also, is this danger unique to gyroplanes, or can it happen to other types of aircraft too?
Hi - I think in this instance with more height and the same pilot actions it still crashes. The issue is that once the rotor of this type is unloaded then the pilot looses directional control and at the same time the rotor RPM decays and so the rotors themselves loose their integrity. This was a similar accident and gives a fuller explanation www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/7-1974-g-axar-11-september-1970 Its unique to any teetering rotor system - so all sport gyroplanes but also Robinson and Bell 2 blade helicopters.
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 when you say "rotors themselves lose integrity" -- did the rotors disintegrate in flight? Or did the rotor spin sort of "stall"? I'm wondering if some kind of emergency pre-rotator could have revived their spin, to then save the vehicle (provided there was enough altitude and time to recover)? Imagine there was a rotor RPM counter, and when it detects the RPM drop below a certain level, then it triggers some emergency pre-rotator device.
As in the rotor gains its ability to carry the weight of aircraft through its rotational velocity. If you have a powered input to the rotor then you'd need some form of anti-torque [i.e. a tail rotor] and then you create a different problem.
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 Well, I figure that some torque and consequent rotation in the vehicle itself can't be as bad as the spin stall, which itself proved to be catastrophic. At least if the rotor keeps spinning, then you have some hope.
@@manofsanI think he means that once the machine starts "tumbling" in the air, the rotor will never get the chance to start spinning again (because you need to move straight for a while , for the rotor to pick up RPMs). At least this is what I have understood. Pretty horrible really, to know he is gonna die and nothing to do about it.
How easy do the rotors unload in a downdraft eg caught on the leeward side of a mountain or a sudden gust even if brief. Or as you come out a large thermal and get sink.
Supposedly they are not as sensitive to winds and turbulent air when compared to a trike with a weight shift wing like an Evolution trike. I'm not a pilot in either only what I have read.
@@Mike-01234 I wrote to Ken Wallis years ago, and he relayed a tale of flying his gyro in a hurricane in Brazil, with palm trees flying by and all commercial aircraft grounded. Gyros are incredibly stable in adverse conditions.
Hi and no. So rotors in autorotation do so because of airflow through the blade and because of the position of the aerodynamic force the rotor continues to rotate. Therefore "unloading the rotors" to mean a g value less than 1, means airflow is taken away.
This slow motion shot is right on. You can clearly see when the blades begin to Mast bump. This is the only video I've seen of a real rotor craft mast bumping. This is how a low g push causes a free fall to certain death.
Is this due to the fact that when the rotor is unloaded (may also happen if the wind goes downwards, like in the storm or in the mountains), pusher propeller has no forces that balance it, and if it's over the center of masses (like in this construction where it's over), it will make a spin movement? If it was properly centered with enough power it would just push the gyro forward without that deadly spin, or the gyro would start to fall in-place that would load back the rotor.
Hi Anton - take a look at some of the webinar films. The issue when the rotor is unloaded is that you loose directional control because that is performed by the orientation of rotor thrust.
It's not really a stall, because the rotor never stalls. What is happening is in a zero/low g situation, you have zero lift, hence no flying surfaces available to provide directional control, so the thrust-line of the powerplant becomes the only control available.
Rotor isn't stalled although the airspeed was getting low and so if the stick is held where it was to commence the climb you'd just "mush" towards the ground. It rolls because the rotor a g values less than 1 isn't resisting the effects from the motor and once it has departed from controlled flight - you see the result. A good graphic here:- www.tervis.fidisk.fi/JTsite/safety/Gyrosafety.html
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 Read that link you sent says the cause of Pitch Instability was exacerbated by the fact that early Gryos like Bensons lacked a horizontal stabilizers. I'm assuming with the engine thrust right over that stabilizer it would help does it not?
Makes sense if rotor is always need air flowing from the bottom though to the top of the blades if it loses forward airspeed at the same time the nose pitches over going to flip over now just a dead weight falling though the air.
Observation here from my prospective as a non-experienced pilot. He went waaaaay to fast for the crafts design, pulling up at those speeds made it completely unstable resulting this crash
2:072:08 did the rotor hit the propeller blade? It looks like it did? In the last frames I can see pieces flying off even before the craft hits the ground.
Considering how thes flying things are build this should not be a surpise. But to be fai any plane/helo can be made to disassemble in the air first rather than on the ground second.
Its likely - once the rotor is unloaded, in this case caused as the aircraft starts to fly in a ballistic path and therefore g becomes towards zero. The rotor then starts to loose RPM and eventually starts to flap and finally looses its structural integrity.
Are gyros currently banned in Japan? I can find none registered there, and there was a bizarre incident three years ago, with an imported Cavalon. Un-registered machine, uncommanded take-off, fatal crash (tail-strike in the air, interestingly)
No i don't think gyroplanes are banned in Japan but in truth its not a market i have a lot of knowledge of. I think the Cavalon accident had the usual set of unknowns but given the nature you can see the holes in the cheese line up a long way away - I mean how did anyone end up sat in an un-registered aircraft with the engine running and get an "un-commanded" take off?? Hmmm yeah OK.
Air strike means negative g. The other thing to look for is often the blades end up bent forward like an upsidedown banana but not backwards as if high enough by the time they hit the ground they have little forward speed. No gyro is fool proof with negative g, neither are choppers, or trikes. Trikes may be able to recover but risk overstressing the wing. Anything in which you hang beneath a universal joint and the weight has any bearing on control will loose that control if you pushing is weightless.
Wow, that was definitely a graphic illustration of just what how quickly things can go wrong, and obviously a case of what not to do! So if he just cut back on the throttle, and applied some positive pressure on the rotor blades, he could have made it out safely? It probably didn't help that the engine trust line was up quite high on that gyro too. I heard that unloading the rotor blades even on some helicopters (teetering, 2 blade helis), can also lead to bad things happening, like mast bump, and even tail boom stikes!😬 It really pays to know what you, and your machine are capable of, as well as their respective limits. Condolences to the pilot's family.
@@Wildstar40 I disagree. Once you "bunt" - Power Push Over in a gyro you are done. Someone is collecting on your life insurance. There is no recovery regardless of available altitude.
It’s one of the sources of debate. The aerodynamic study that was commissioned by the CAA suggested that horizontal stabs make no difference when they looked at the actual data. The issue (and I think why the confusion exists) is because inbetween the time the aero study was commissioned and its eventual publication in whole there had been a fresh set of accidents with RAF2000 and the CAA has by then suggested horizontal stabs as part of the solution to that problem. So the CAA made efforts to disagree with the data and recorded so in the published report despite there being no data just subjective feeling from their test pilot. My own feeling for what it’s worth is that I suspect a tailplane gives a feeling in some flight modes but a horizontal stab means what exactly? Where is it placed, (not just in ref to CoG but also to the prop) what aerofoil profile,
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 The purpose of the horizontal stabilizer it's to avoid the push over when the gyrocopter is throttling hard in low g / low rotor load conditions (PPO). It doesn't need any aerofoil profile, just a sheet it's fine, because the horizontal stabilizer put in the middle of the air stream coming from the propeller keeps the gyrocopter in the same angle, with more force as the pilot throttles more, same as a weather vane. So yes , of course, the horizontal stabilizer put at the height of the middle of the propeller thrust it's without a doubt a huge advance in pusher gyrocopter safety. Indeed most all modern pusher type gyrocopters have it. Center of gravity in front of the center of uplift aerodynamic pression (as example by putting the pilot well before the rotor axis in the direction of flight), push force at the same height of the center of gravity and rear horizontal stabilizer put at the middle of the propeller air stream, it all make pusher gyrocopters as stable and safe as the La Cierva type, tractor autogyro, because it have the same forces configuration.
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 At the airspeed at which this event happened, the pilot would have had very little elevator authority (unless, perhaps the empenage was directly in the prop blast and sufficiently large to overcome the thrust-line moment).
On newer builds what about an assist system for the rotor blades ? Sure if you Bunt/loop that's all she wrote, but what about a high torque starter motor with capacitors and programmable rpm switch 🤔 Machine the gyrohead with an outside gear similar to an outboard flywheel, the bendix is far enough away from the rotor to be safe but in the event you lose rotor speed it can engage even if just briefly and get you back 300-400 rpm Would that give you back enough lift to get out this scenario ? Or would that initiate a horizontal spin without a tail rotor even if it's only a brief second?
It seems to me that if he simply continued his climb until he bled off air speed to a near stall, this would not have happened because the rotor would have maintained its loading. Correct?
Yes I think to some degree that is correct - as in I know what you are saying - but don't forget there is no aerodynamic stall like a fixed wing here because of the wing being the rotor and the pilot would [will in real life today] have to make positive control inputs to ensure that at the point of airspeed reducing in the climb [because at some point the motor can not sustain the current climb angle - we are not in a rocket!] to ensure 1g is maintained, remember once you start to fly a "ballistic" type flight path you are at zero g.
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 Yes, I understand that there is no stall speed. My meaning was that as the airspeed bled off, wouldn't the aircraft stop climbing and then the pilot could simply return to level flight with no throttle changes?
@@sevenrats yep I understand, just being overly pedantic for the benefit of those who read later. What is a nice way to do it is turn it into a semi-wing over where you just roll and pull - that ensures the rotor disc is always loaded. See my film on unusual attitudes czcams.com/video/sAgmha6XHfE/video.html
My foster father who was a bit of a gyro man, taught me about porpoising. It looks to me like a failure very similar to what I was taught to avoid. It was certainly a steepish climb which would have lost air speed followed by a push over that caused negative g and the resulting rotar stall and rapid decent. Which without altitide was never going to recover.
Jay I think you have it backwards.. negative g's causes unloading of rotor rsulting in power push over. Loss of airspeed is not a problem but results in normal descent, not stall as with fixed wing aircraft.
Yeah, the steep climb lead to unloading of the gyro and once that happened the rotor simply pushed him to tumble over. Like a parachute the gyro needs that positive g to maintain lift otherwise it will drop like a stone
The center of gravity could stay the same. But, the thrust line/vector would change. It’s the same with pusher-prop airplanes, dual push-pull airplanes and airplanes with top/high mounted engines.
Please, see what finnish engineer Jukka Tervamäki wrote about gyroplane pitch instability: www.tervis.fidisk.fi/JTsite/safety/Gyrosafety.html Jukka is the designer of the first gyros from italian maker Magni Gyro. He highlights the fact that an appropriate horizontal stabilyzer is a key factor to prevent gyro bunt over.
I have to admit… when watching, I can’t see any mistakes prior to it stalling. I’m not a pilot but in my opinion, a bank to the left or right instead of a “leveling out”… would have saved him. Again, I’m just a tourist when it comes to all of this.
Let me share my experience with something "similar". I was on a training flight one day and during the flight we where discussing with my instructor about the physics of gyroplane flying and he said that the gyroplane , and in particular the rotor, is happy when you are happy. What that means is that as long as you feel your self sitting on the gyro that means that the rotor is loaded. the rotor holds the weight of the gyro and you. A loaded rotor is a happy rotor. When during any maneuver that makes you feel light on the seat or you feel your stomach coming towards your mouth, that means that you are flying less than 1 G. You need to know your machine's limitation because some gyros fly differently from others as you already mentioned in a previous video. Back to my experience, (this was a controlled practice with my instructor) after a slight dive to gain speed i pulled up 10-15 degrees until my airspeed came down to 20 or 30 knots and then i push the stick slightly forward up to the point that i felt my self not touching the seat and the rotor rpm dropping rapidly. what happened? absolutely nothing. why? because we fly a true center line trust machine with a horizontal stab located in the propwash to cancel the engine torque during such situations because at low G's the rotor doesn't have the authority to cancel the engine torque when in full throttle . I'm not promoting this kind of flying and as i said it was a controlled scheduled practice with proper briefing and studying with my instructor.
You were very lucky a guy I knew flying a high C of G machine pushed it too hard in high speed flight he went straight through the cockpit leaving his leg under the instrument panel. Also had stab right in the middle of the thrust line. But yes once you have unloaded the rotor to any extent you loose lift and the machine will conform to whatever other forces are happening. I remember once instructing in the gyro glider we hit massive sink just as the driver slowed down. We dropped and bounced as we bounced very high I felt a complete list of stick sensitivity. A lot of bunt over accidents happen turning from downwind to upwind. People sometimes over turn as the crosswind causes a crab relative to the ground so they turn tighter putting on more power and Blackstock to maintain height. They then level out with masses of inertia. This causes them to climb so they push forward (I think) flattening a rotor still washing off energy actually increases lift as it's now flatter so they push again and bang! Dead! Consider this stab aside, gc thrust line aside. What good will correct thrust line do if you rotors are unloaded. On the ground we unload them after each landing right? So how much stick pressure does that require? Don't get me wrong correct thrust line also helps maintain proper dynamics in flight and can be achieved with downthrust (many take the downthrust off). However,. You can still unload them fatally. The blades stop and you're dead. Your machine geometry may well have saved you but I suspect it was a close thing and wouldn't be trying it again. Just let it climb until it doesn't want to climb anymore or you could put it into a bank and maintain positive g. Cheers
@@cameronlapworth2284 Well said. i agree with everything you said. As I said we were prepared, studied it and briefed about it and we didn't pushed below 310 rpm. We went from 400 rpm (since we where pulling up loaded) down to 310 rpm (during low G)
@@christospsaras7582 I really would like to see some experiments with large RC gyros we could sort a lot out of course awareness which this video does it great. Just don't push it and we'll all be okay.
Christos most of what you have written makes no sense. A gyro's rotor does not exert torque on the aircraft under any condition. Also, the horizontal stab only improves pitch stability, it has no effect on, and is not effected by engine torque. Center-line thrust only helps to prevent "power push over." Negative G's results in rotor speed decay, blade flap, and crash, regardless of center-line thrust or lack of.
Hi Mike. I never said rotor torque but engine torque (on the propeller). What i said is a well known fact that you learn early in your flight training ground school. 1st, do Google image search about "propwash spiral effect on the aircraft" and second "propeller engine torque effect" . Note, when you are trimmed and flying straight with a loaded rotor there's a small amount of rotor thrust vector tilted to the side (roll) that continuously compensates for that engine torque. When you apply sudden throttle changes you instinctively apply cyclic pitch and roll as well to compensate for that high thrust line and engine torque. The gyro that i fly is a center line thrust and has strategically located the tail (vertical and horizontal stabs) in the center of the prop wash to cancel the pitch over and engine torque (propeller! Not rotor) see the Aviomania presentation in this CZcams channel. what do you think it will happen when you are at full throttle and suddenly your rotor becomes unloaded? what will that engine torque do to your airframe when there's nothing to compensate for it?
I'm new to this and wanting to build a Gyrocopter. I've been watching CZcams videos to see the dangers of what not to do. I think I understand why this person crashed. I totally agree with your video. During the flight of the first few seconds. I heard the motor was full throttle. As he pulled back on the control stick it went straight up causing the motor to stall. Instead of keeping his controls to where the g-force keeps him in his seat. He chose zero g force trying to level instead of going left would've kept him in his seat.
I am not gyroplane rated. But, I fly fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters. So, I am not quite sure what you mean. I have done some studying of gyroplane flying. The engine did not stall. And, he did not fall out of his seat. The push-over caused the aircraft to go into negative Gs. This caused the rotor to become unloaded. It is the rotor disc load factor (weight pulling down on the rotor) that keeps the rotor in a relative wind to create its spin. A combination of the force vector of the propeller being above the center of gravity increasing the push-over, and the torque of the engine causing adverse roll, put the aircraft in an unrecoverable position. The prevention of this lies in reducing power before leveling off, and reducing the nose pitch change rate to make the level off more gentle. This can be done by decreasing power, then continuing to apply back-pressure on the control stick until you have achieved your desired altitude. Then, you can reintroduce power in level flight.
@@deanfowlkescorrect sir don't forget this is a old Benson design it didn't even have a horizontal stabilizer and it's not a CLT design the engine sits high in new gyro there all CLT with HS which eliminates this problem and if your still worried get a tractor design gyro rather then a pusher and your 100%protected cheers
The main one is wind limits and cross country comfort. If you live in the UK you'll know that we get very varied weather and also we have very varied terrain. Fixed wing microlights are great things but you'll get more out of them if you are experienced. Now you could argue that is the case with all aircraft but fixed wing microlights because of their general low wing loading make for a quite "bumpy" ride in turbulent or thermic conditions. That in itself might be something many are put off by. However in the landing phase in particular they are far more sensitive to cross winds. Again in the UK the majority of time we get a South Westerly wind and +10knts and slightly gusty is not unusual. Because of the general loss and decay of the once very numerous airfields in the UK very often a wind from 290-300deg leaves a crosswind. That is a challenge - or rather a much greater challenge to the inexperienced fixed wing microlight pilot. However I would say in almost all cases of aviation you need to doing it often [so +20/30hrs per year] and off a reasonable amount of experience, preferably +500hrs but certainly >200hrs. Good luck.
@@tungstenkid2271 Hi honestly I don't know and really the problem is that gyroplanes over the last 30 years have really changed because the usual 2 seat gyros you see flying today didn't really exist in any meaningful form before circa 2005/6. So comparing these verse the historic data is one thing then the numbers flying / hours flown are relatively very small. By far the most common modern gyroplane accident today has its roots in some form pilot error - which is reasonably true for all aviation accidents today, the equipment is pretty solid in all cases.
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 - Do you foresee any hope in turning around the aviation trend in the UK? In that, I mean, stopping or reversing the loss of airfields. I am curious because we here in the US have lost a lot of airfields. We just had a lot to start. So, I am projecting what the future may entail.
@@deanfowlkes Hey - no I think the trend continues in the UK and likely over the next 30 years you are left with a handful of well used GA fields and some ones of historical significance, the rest will be industrial or housing estates. The unsinkable aircraft carrier hasn't been needed for some decades now and aviation is not very popular among the young. Go to an airfield in the UK and you find the following trend. Cyclist and motor cyclists having a cup of tea as the airfield is a source of rural cafes. Older people full of nostalgia, dog walkers and then at the back of the list are a handful of people who actually fly and a smaller group who have flown to the airfield.
This is why you fly a Pitts Special. You can regularly load and unload the wings without failure regardless of power setting. I do have quite a bit of time in rotorcraft (gyro & helicopter). They can be fun although are a lot of work to fly versus fixed wing.
I am not a gyrocopter pilot, but do have considerable fixed wing time. It appears to me the rotor, which is the gyrocopter’s wing, stalled, am I correct?
Can you sort this in my head Phil? Looks like he levels out as his speed washes out, but because he's still giving it the beans the prop thrust pushes him over. He reacts with more and more back-stick to correct the push-over but runs out of stick relative to prop thrust. Am I reading this right? If he'd throttled back at the top of his climb, the ship would've settled and he might still be alive wouldn't he?
Hi Chris - yes I agree. The most striking thing for me is that nothing in any of that looks particularly aggressive. I'm not sure if this was part of a practiced sequence at a show or someone having a play but as you say it almost looks as if it just ran out of energy at the top of the climb and he ran out of ideas. Given the actual height this all happens at in reality simply closing the throttle will create a second issue - i.e. no height. The roll and pull as per my unusual attitudes film would have saved him here - which is one of my big frustrations with UK training because I got heavily criticised for suggesting that. Why? In the UK there is a drive to have one solution fix all problems [because it is easier to write one document / describe one process] and then create a little jingle / slogan / catch phase. All very nice and marketable but it doesn't work because flying isn't like that but Hey ho. I also think all gyroplane pilots should spend a half hour with an aerobatic instructor in a fixed wing to understand the sensations, etc.
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 Yes. With the rotor unloaded, that's kind of what's happening. The only forces acting on the aircraft are from the engine thrust and gravity (and maybe some smallish gyroscopic forces and engine torque).
One thing that puzzles me. I know that some pilots are 'cowboys', and like thrills even if they are a bit dangerous. But this guy was descending rapidly and sounded like he had power to control the descent just above ground level - but why, then, did he pull up so radically? I didn't see an obstacle and he apparently was not trying to land. Was he just joy riding to an extreme?
Only if you are stupid. We used to call it the Darwin award, after recent events it has been renamed the Stockton Rush award. Respect is useful in many applications. Dead people prove it, stupid people ignore it and smart people observe it.
A fixed wing aircraft has a stall warning horn, a gyroplane should have an unload warning horn that sound when you are about to unload the rotor. Or better yet, have a automatic stick puller. I don't think it is that difficult to implement.
Anyone who's flown old school in e.g. a Bensen or glider might laugh at your suggestion but i support your thinking. Having a realistic simulator on which to train - good enough to mimic a chosen current model - would safely teach students and type converters its corresponding flight envelope and control input limits. Knowing the inputs to avoid much better than inflight sensors, as human reaction to warnings might be too late. On the other hand, if the top end of the market went to fly-by-wire, realtime predictive flight modelling could simply ignore/override human suicide inputs! I guess autonomous flying taxis will bring such technology faster than many care to imagine.
@@ExcaliburBahrainThe problem is people have been told gyros fly like a FW since day one. Gyros actually are more like a trike. Do the same thing on a trike, and you will end up the same.
@@Aviator168 I think it is more complex than that. Historically, there have been FW pilots who died in gyro accidents because they did not seek sufficient cross-training, or perhaps, forgot what they were taught at the critical moment, and went back to FW reflexes.. This US article dates from 2004... www.kitplanes.com/gyroplane-safety/ A South African airline pilot's perspective... mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/gpoley/homepage%201a.htm
@Neminem Laedit Thank you for the link on the Japanese Cavalon crash. It would appear that the cavalon is not immune from the traditional 'bunt' event, which is mostly a thing of the past. There have been a couple of Cavalon 'en route' accidents, so far unexplained. Perhaps their horizontal stabiliser is not big enough, or mounted too high up. Our host remarked that the Cavalon stabiliser is smaller than other similar machines in another video on the 'Cavalon nod'. czcams.com/video/xFcgEPz0LVg/video.html&
I am a old guy and a old pilot and love every thing in flying, even gyrocopters; however I would never fly in one. Let me tell you why. The rotor blades have no inertia and because of this fact the blades are apt to slow very rapidly and lose rotor speed . Thus the reduced lift and no way to recover and the end of your flying . Note in the video that the rotary-blade never strikes the tail and vertical stabilizer. And if I did not know this fact, I to would fly a gyrocopter. However this said, "you can not stand between a man and his destiny".
Yet you would fly in an aircraft that is incredibly vulnerable to a major accident in the event of engine trouble during takeoff, and which has inherent issues with spin and stall. For a gyro, an engine out is a doddle, and of course they don't have any issues at all with stalling or spins. Furthermore, because of their high wing loading, they are far more stable in adverse conditions than fixed wing aircraft - unless it's something like a F-104 Starfighter! :)
I appreciate you leaving out the actual impact. I noted that the rotor started to oscillate dramatically as he went to level (which he did while closing the throttle). Don't you want to keep the power on in order to maintain rotor load using air speed? I guess in this case, had he cut the throttle earlier, he would have maintained load on the rotor.
Thanks Bryan. Actually the pilot doesn't close the throttle at the top of the climb prior to levelling out and its that which causes the issue. You need to reduce the throttle at the top which does two things. 1) it removes the thrust from the prop and also the torque effects of the motor at higher RPM 2) it loads the rotor disc.
Is it just me or was the rapid change of altitude responsible for- the blade on top- to make the aircraft unstable. Sorry, not down with the aircraft jargon.
Gyro planes will never be a stunt plane. operated without showing off is a sane approach. I have a large yacht. I do not spin the wheel from left to right for fun because the boat is not designed to handle these loads. I saw some idiot do a loop in a gyro. Really stupid, no excuse. No aircraft that is not designed for stunts is capable of doing such nonesense.
It just seems to me that a legit/accurate Virtual Reality flight simulation software could really be effective training (muscle memory) to prevent these dangerous flight situations. Ideally, the programming would need to be tailored to specific aircraft models so as to mimic each craft's unique flight nuances (limitations and strengths) within simulated flight conditions).
Said it before: Gyros are not sport machines unless the pilot is actively involved in, and current with, all aspects of the physics involved. Even then why bother? Go for a STOL aircraft if you want to fly like a stunt pilot. The flight view is (all) the excitement (on offer). Any close to the ground activity should be boring and predictable. These Darwin Award moments will keep Gyros in the news, sales low, prices high and the regulator-trolls frothing with self-justified importance. ps: Pilot in video must have been flying into a stiff breeze to lose that much inertia so quickly.
Surely it's not beyond the wit of man to adequately (mathematically) simulate the rotor motion (indeed, the whole aerodynamics of the craft) and see how fast and easily it unloads in similar or other gnarly scenarios we can dream up - without RC models or folk dying? Would be very useful to compare rotor models as well as C/G positions, stabiliser sizes, etc. Need a university aero engineering department to assist, as my Rolls-Royce performance office days are well past! Perhaps a regulatory body push in this direction - pardon the pun - would seriously help in a world increasingly overtaken by commercial, proprietary muscle.
publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Paper2009_02red.pdf to be fair this surely went a long way to doing that... except when it was published a great many disregarded it and to some degree that included the people who commissioned it. Personally I think it is incredible but you live long enough I guess you see everything!
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 Tervamaki figured it out 40 years earlier. Gave up in disgust, at the denial he met. But, luckily, he sold his plans to Magni, who started popping out a few factory-builds from the late 1980s. It snowballed in the early 2000s when AutoGyro-GmbH and ELA-Aviacion joined the party, followed by several more smaller manufacturers. All copying the same basic design. Probably 5000 of these machines are now flying worldwide, and the gyro renaissance is well under way. Forecast to be one of the few growth areas in aviation in the coming decade.
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 aha... v.useful material - alas too heavy for many, even enthusiasts. My hope is it could instead become an app or at least a webpage interface that accepted specific gyro parameters (not the manufacturer's app unless adopted by CAA) - like an MS Flight Sim for autogyros! Altho many manufacturers' autogyros resemble others, it would be instructive to model each and develop some measures of safety. The dimensions/ weight/CG etc are not secret once the machines are launched so i don't see why makers should object. Especially as lives are still lost on $100K machines.
It's been done in the UK including testing in machines with an array of sensors. The report found a stabilisers don't work very well and there are stable and unstable Configs related to thrust line and cg. Both downthrust or shifting cg matter but matter mainly at the high speeds. The report has been ignored mainly. My concern and I know I keep going on about this is much of the thinking is that it is possible to make and idiot proof gyro. I don't think it is. Go and Google gyro fatalities and look at the machines. Almost all include stabilisers, all stabiliser Configs are represented,. High gc machines are also represented. One guy I knew had brought such a machine. A great machine I'd have been happy to own by the way. But he had finished his training and was boasting how fast it was and he'd be taking up to over 100mph the next weekend. All us old timers warned him explained it was a high CG machine,. It had a large HS. He'd be fine. He fatally unloaded the machine the next weekend. It will not save you anymore than you can expect to survive sustained inverted flight in a chopper. Anyone who wants to promote an idiot proof gyro can do so by performing that manicure should they wish to make the point. I note no one is mad enough to try but they will market Thier machines as safe based on this. People need to be clear. No gyro is idiot proof.
it looked like he continued pulling back ...never really leveled out ! What i think i see is ... it keeps climbing ... nearing the top ..he starts pulling back ... as it starts negative it looks like he pulled full back. Correct me if i am wrong (FYI I am NOT a gyro pilot ) on seeing again at 1:51 ish it does appear he gives a down but then pulls back ...
Watch again carefully he pulls back and established a climb you can see him push the stick forward but the machine is still climbing what you can't see is he's leveled the disk relative to the airflow. Once the rotor unloaded (takes about 1 sec). He has zero control the machine still accelerating up generally goes straight through the rotor. But he was screwed the moment the rotor unloaded. You can do the same thing in a chopper although harder as the rotor is powered. Gyros are stick free stable but stick fixed unstable. That is if you leave them alone they are very very stable but the moment you move the stick the do exactly what you tell it to and don't stop until you correct. So he didn't need to put in a big input but compared to a fixed wing but this was a big move for a gyro. I'd do a demo instructing in the gyro glider for my students. I'd have them watch my hand as I turned either side of the car and I'd just apply pressure and it's gently swing out release the pressure it's go back with a little opposite and so on until we were banking quite extremely. They wouldn't see my hand move. Now they are easy to fly,. But only after you learn to leave the thing alone and suggest you turn as I said much more stick free stable than a fixed wing. And once you know how you can toss them about in a positive g way. I'd do massive tight banks staring sideways at the ground blades whopping overhead but completely positive, never negative g.
For several years I have wanted a gyrocopter. I never knew about this problem until I saw this video. This has totally scared me away from the idea !!!! I will NEVER EVER get one !!!! I thought that a gyrocopter could not be stalled like a fixed wing aircraft.
That's still true, this wasn't a stall. But it's still bad. When it comes to flying, don't "want" an aircraft, "want" spending the time and effort to develop a satisfying skill - you'll live longer.
As has been pointed out, this was not a stall. A conventional aircraft can recover from a stall with enough altitude. Unloading the rotors on a gyro is like tearing off the wings of an aircraft - once the negative G's have taken away the lift, the blades are unrecoverable, because unlike a helicopter they're not being mechanically driven. They are always in a state of auto-rotation - stop the air moving through the blades to keep them turning, and that's it, game over.
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 The machine makes a very sharp up-down motion at the top. And yaws left-right. There is a better, pin-sharp, BBC video in existence, which I remember seeing on BBC2 one evening in the late 1980s, on a prog about the history of Farnborough, IIRC.... Not seen it since.
If the last second of a man's life, upside down, out of control, speeding toward the ground, and 20ft from death isn't upsetting, try imaging a family member with him, because you apparently have no empathy.
@Brain Inavat some people are only interested in seeing people die or what? It's about finding the cause of an accident and warning others, and I appreciate the upload.
The same can be said of motorcycles, scuba gear, and hot women. Frankly, riding a bicycle in London, New York, or Chicago is just about as dangerous. Maybe less so than the hot woman. 😜
Happened to a high school friend back in the 70’s. I put fuel in his gyro before going home. Reaching home, I received the phone call that he had gone in.
It doesn't matter how expensive the aircraft or who makes it (commercial or not), when you are outside it's flight envelope, you are at risk of being mailed back to earth with a R.I.P postage stamp.
I'm stealing that
I am a student Gyrocopter pilot, and this is frightening, but thank you for the warning, we must always make safety our top priority.
Training training training from CFI!!!!!
The narrative speaker has a terrible depressive voice 🙁
It looks like the rotor collision with the propeller.
It is frightening. That's why I would only fly a CLT (center line of thrust) gyro. Problem is there are few CLT gyros.
@@scupkingPretty much every gyro on the market is ctl plus they have stabilizers.
For obvious reasons, it is painful to watch but at the same time, it is incredible useful to be able to study what manoeuvres lead to dangerous situations. Sharing these observations contributes to more pilots flying more safely. Thank you so much for sharing these videos 🙏
As someone who wants to fly one day, and possibly own a gyro, this was indeed a reality check. no matter how much "time" I have in my simulators and games, none of that would have helped me as much as your video has. I still wish to learn and build one of these machines to fly, but I'll do so with this stark reminder to fly safe.
You'll be fine if you just take your time and fly "normally" i.e. no messing around. Always err on the side of caution and seek the advice of your local instructor. Remember the first 1000hrs are the hardest and you only tend to get to crash an aircraft once in your lifetime!
I’m glad you mentioned about unloading the rotors as this occurs with microlight trikes as well. A typical incident occurs when the pilot entered a fast climb and attempts to level out by pulling the bar in sharply, unloading the wing and possibly some negative g. I saw a fatal accident where the pilot pulled the bar in firmly after a 45 degree climb and ended tumbling three consecutive rotations before hitting the ground. We also are trained to throttle back, maintain the current angle of attack and allow the wing nose to drop approaching stall. Followed by an increase in throttle and level flight resumed. Thanks for your clear and concise information on rotorcraft.
Thank you very much, very appreciated here as well :) ... those short mortal reminders can save at least dozens of lives, thank you for that
I did six hours training in a giro. The continual emphasis by the instructor was never ever put the machine into negative g and throttle off before leveling off.
Six hours should be enough to learn how to spell gyro.
@@rdaystrom4540 lol he said six hours
@@rdaystrom4540 You just had to be THAT GUY.
@@rdaystrom4540 😂...
@@rdaystrom4540 Yeah, it´s greek, and in greek it´s written with an "Y", but still, in romanian languages like Italian/spanish (but not in french, I think), they write it with an "I"... Romans would do anything to display themselves as non-Greeks, cause they were fed up with others believing them to be also Greeks, so, they changed stuff delivered to them by the Greeks, in order to gain an own identity (at the same time "Rome" itself being a greek word too, meaning "Strength", of course ;-)
I've always heard about this and have read about it but this is the first video I've seen that actually shows it. Frightening!
@Gratte Burnes - yes, but as the video also points out, the pilots control movements weren't that abrupt. I was amazed at how easy it seemed for him to get into that situation. If the pilot had jammed the control forward at the top of the climb, this would have made sense but that's not what he did. I think it also speaks to the "high thrust line vs center line thrust" arguments I've heard through the years related to the pusher style gyros like this one. I've heard a lot of pilots continue to argue that high thrust line configurations aren't a problem. Quote, "They've been flown safely for years." That may be true in and of itself but I think this proves that they're an inherently unsafe design regardless of how many hours they've been flown. One way or another, it's just a matter of time.
the pilot was going up with a steep angle and then he level the gyro but at that point the engine could not push the gyro and at the end the blades hit the rudder cause of the flapping
@@Thebasicmaker - He pulled up steeply and then pushed over to level the aircraft. When he did that, he off loaded the rotor and the high thrust line configuration, still at a relatively high power setting, started rotating the nose downward, hense the term, "power push over." The engine thrust may not be adding much in the way of airspeed at this point, but it is most definitely still pushing the gyro. The pilot eventually pulled back on the stick to try to stop that motion, a purely instinctive reaction but if you watch the video carefully, especially the slow motion part at the end, the rotor never impacted the rudder. There is some small part that flies off the machine just before impact but it's not coming from the rudder area. I'm not sure what that is.
Excellent work. Very important to show this. This is the classic negative g zoom then push over. For others reading comments this is also possible at very high airspeeds particularly in a light machine with big rotors as your disk gets very low. At high speeds it might be the tiniest of nudges that results in by bunting it over. Fly slower than the top speed unless you are very experienced.
Yes - Cameron. and at high speed a good nudge to the right will cause a nose down pitch.
NOT GOOD.
@@shaneconnolly6673 Right or left? Yes that's possible the blades respond because the teeter hinge is off set so fore aft a nose down pitch won't do anything (for that microsecond) until the blade turns 90 degrees where the angle will effect it. So a pitch to the right will if the teeter hinge is aligned will not impact until it turns 90 degrees when the twist will start to impact, and pitch the up on the retreating side but the advancing will start to descent. (If I have that right in my head).
However I'd suggest if your that flat that this can have an impact you should be flying slower. No one wants to say that though because we want short take off, short landing low speed performance and high speed performance, sensitivity and stability and we can't have it all. If people really want to fly faster they shouldn't be flying with big high pitched rotors. No one wants to say that.
Fortunately for me my seat belt stopped me flying too fast. Anything over 60mph the ends of seatbelts would start flicking my nipples at about 1000rpm ;) Very painful and as I'm not into that I tended to fly below 60mph. My gyro was very stable and nice up to 80mph (never flew it faster than that) but didn't like the seatbelt above that speed. ;)
Thanks Cameron.
Yes HARD stick movement to the RIGHT will cause a nose down tilt.
-aka UNLOADING THE ROTOR !! at high speed.
Experienced gyro pilots don't notice this gyro effect- they just automatically compensate.
(In a similar way riders of BMW horizon twin motorcycles compensate for the torque reaction of the motor & don t notice it .)
@@shaneconnolly6673 Hi Shane I'm not sure you'd feel it. theres a difference between the disk pitching and an individual rotor pitching - relative to the teeter hub. Any movement within the teeter hub will not be felt (unless it exceeds the teeter stops) because differences in lift will be automatically compensated for - that's what the teeter hinge does. It is critical at the point of unloading.
I noticed this because after starting my flight training in ultralights for about 10 hours I shifted to gyros years latter a mate had brought the very ultralight I was training in. He took me up for a fly and said "you want a go" of course I said yes. So we are climbing over the airstrip and hit a thermal under the left wing. "you going to correct that?" we were flying left wing high for a second, "Oh yes" I correct we hit another on the right wing "you going to correct for that?", "Oh yes". I then wondered why my instincts were off. I did fine the rest of the flight but wondered why the hell wasn't I correcting. I took my gyro up after that flight and payed attention. Flying through similar thermals I wasn't doing anything. Because I didn't need to. I worked it out. The teeter hinge is lifting on the advancing side with reference to the difference in airspeed. It lifts washes off angle of attack the retreating blade drops increasing its angle off attack we don't feel this because its doing it automatically.
Having been trained and an instructor in gyrogliders and many times flow the whole length of the strip hands off I know there isn't any torque effect of compensation for this required. As a disk the lift is equal even though the angle is oscillating up and down.
Now in regards to a thermal under one side say. what will the blade do? Well lets say its on the advancing side. The advancing blade has more lift (due to the thermal) so it just lifts as it does so the teeter hinge is pushing the retreating blade down increasing its angle of attack. So you don't need to touch the stick because 360 degrees around the teeter hinge compensates automatically. Now fore aft other forces can come into play. If you hit a thermal although the lift is equallised (increased) across the disk as the disk is angled back say 9 degrees that lift will be increased so the effect (the moment) will change the relationship between engine thrust and lift and CG. Of course correct down thrust or compensation of CG vs thrustline will fix this. So the biggest thermals I ever hit pitched the nose down perhaps an inch? go out of the thermal and it would pitch nose up about an inch max. This was a standard Bensen geometry machine no stabiliser. However remove the downthrust and every change of power will result in having to input a stick input.
Generally though I realised I didn't ever fly by jabbing the stick to compensate I largely left it alone other than to adjust speed and direction. If I hit a thermal I left it alone and just adjusted speed.
This is a long way of saying I'm not sure you'd feel any effects of the rotor responding to teetering down but yes I think if you are one the margin the teeter could well cause one blade to suddenly drop below the airflow and unload. I don't think it likely you'd have any warning, I suspect (although I don't plan to test this) you'd be flying and suddenly bang! Bang! BANG! you're now tumbling with wreckage strewn behind you. Best thing would be to be no-where near this point. Cheers
Yes I understand that the teeter action results in no torque reaction to be felt by the pilot.
I certainly felt the rotor axis tilt when I first landed a gyro.
Nose down caused a bank to the left.
No doubt as a novice I was "jabbing" the stick a bit.
I seem to recall proving this with a rotating dowel - No aero effect !
Yes the gyro effect precedes the stick movement of the rotor by 90 degrees.
Cheers
Shane@@cameronlapworth2284
I think the original La Cierva way of making autogyros, front engine and prop, with empennage, just an airplane with a rotor instead of wings, is much more secure and controllable. Plus the prop helps the rotor to rotate for easier take off.
I used to fly an R/C model like that, motor up front, 2 fixed counter-rotating rotors on a fixed axis, with (oversized) elevators and rudder for control. Even at low airspeed the aircraft still had decent control authority because of the prop wash over the control surfaces, and that has gotten me out of a few dicey situations. Though I'm not sure how it would compare to a pusher prop config.
AMEN..! Ever had the coin to purchase a gyrocopter of any kind…, it would be a tractor…!
He got rid of the wings because using proper cyclic control allowed full control to zero airspeed landings and there had been a number of accidents on landing. There is nothing wrong with the stability of gyros if you understand their limitations. Unlike fixed wings which have good stick fixed stability. Gyros have superior stick free stability ie. Don't touch the controls and it stays put. But unlike fixed wings they have shitty stick fixed stability. That is touch the controls and they'll start turning and keep turning you need to put in an active correction unlike say a Cessna which will sort itself out.
Combine that with in light gyros feather light responsiveness and in all gyros insignificant control input for a very big input and you have if not trained carefully a recipe for disaster.
I used to train people in gyrogliders. And I'd get guys with 1000's of hours in Cessnas or GA aircraft and they would have the stick in a death grip and would over control like nobodies business. And that was dual solo the gyro was even more sensitive. But once you learned to fly by pressure no X amount of stick deflection it becomes natural and easy. Once you had them solo in the glider their chances of dying from over controlling were near zero. In fact no one I ever trained or trained by the guy who taught me died in that manner ever. Yes there were people who did stupid things like try to fly through power lines etc. But not piloting issues as such.
Because the teeter system automatically compensates from side of to side (dissymetry of lift) it also compensates for any thermals etc which would in a fixed wing force you to apply an input to straighten out. A properly set up gyro (correct downthrust etc). will even in massive thermals just climb and descend without needing corrective inputs. But put in an input and it will respond instantly.
So learn to respect it and it will fly safely and smoothly even in conditions most pilots would stay grounded in. But its not a fixed wing and training is very unusual to do it properly. They are their own thing.
And of course avoid high thrust-line gyrocopters(engine thrust above aircraft CG). If adding power causes a nose down movement you are in a high thrust-line aircraft and unloading the rotor(lowering rotor thrust) at a high power setting(high speed and turbulence) is hazardous to your health... A centerline or below centerline thrust aircraft is way safer as an inadvertent rotor unloading such as can happen in turbulence either induces no pitching moment or a positive one which tends to re-load the rotor...
When in doubt lower the power to idle and keep stick pulled back. Dont fly the parabola. His zoom climb was actually pretty pathetic and it ran out of energy at a fairly low altitude and he has no Horizontal tail either, but even so pulling stick back and closing throttle would have punished the gyro but kept him alive.
Enjoyed many flights in my Bensen, towed, and then as a BM8, which I have tucked in the basement, control input is different than a fixed-wing and explained in the original factory manual.
These are always so sad to watch. There were multiple safe ways out of that situation (chopping throttle at the top of the climb with stick aft until the aircraft settles, bank the aircraft and pull the stick back to turn out of it), but the instinctive thing to do (push the stick forward) is the one thing that will kill you. Zoom-climbs aren't inherently dangerous on their own, as in they won't kill you on their own, but one wrong move (which also happens to be the most intuitive move) can make you very dead, very fast. A very nasty peculiarity in an aircraft type which is usually so intuitive to fly.
Hello. I have the set of plans. In Antibes France. Your site is gone? How was that VW working on the LW4?
I always find it unfurtionate that in any video like this, almost every comment are just various forms of saying that it was pilot error.
Thats usually true. The vast majority of aviation fatalities are caused by pilot error. But we all already know that- The reason commentors always point it out is to preserve their natural but dangerous delusion that they are in less danger than the victim/that they *would be* in less danger (in the case of people who don't fly, but want to.)
Pilot error is unavoidable. You can reduce the chance of you screwing up, but no matter what, we are not computers. No matter what, you are one poor decision away from being in one of these videos, and that is a truth that you should embrace in order to reduce the chances as much as possible of you becoming a statistic.
You can of course die while driving, running, riding a bike, even just walking or while doing nothing at all. But certain actions are more dangerous than others. Almost all forms of aviation are more dangerous than walking or riding a bike, for instance.
Pretending like that risk doesn't exist is just making you more likely to become a victim.
Thanks, now I don't want one anymore lol
exactly my thoughts :)
You just don’t want one like this... The heaviest part on a small gyro like this is the pilot. A humans CG is somewhere in the gut. Note the engine on this craft is up around shoulder height on the pilot and most all of his body weight as well as most of the aircraft structure weight is below that engine thrust line. A high thrust line gyro is an accident waiting to happen and requires constant attention to the details of flying, and is not a lot of fun to fly in rough air. It is also the prime reason IMO for the small gyro’s questionable rep and safety record... A zero thrust line or low thrust line aircraft is way more stable/self correcting and a lot more fun to fly.
@@rronmar and which are those?
@@esau82 couldn’t tell you off the top of my head as I haven’t looked at gyros in years. Typically for smaller single seat open frame gyro’s you want the propeller hub to be at or near where your butt/hips would be when seated, but there are exceptions to this as it is the total CG of the aircraft when the pilot is onboard, so looks can be deceiving. There was an ultralight gyro called a Gyro-bee that you could get free plans for which looked very similar to the one in this video, but was actually very near centerline thrust. Usually though, it will appear as if something has been done to raise the pilot seat/pilot weight. It is really a question you must ask the designer/manufacturer. “is the fully loaded aircraft center of gravity above or below the engine/propeller line of thrust” it should be a question they can answer clearly and quickly with something like “The aircraft CG is 1” above engine thrust line” if they cannot answer the question immediately or tell you it is not important, don’t walk, but run away... you can gauge also by how long the manufacturer has been in business, a company like sportcopter dot com embraced the proper configuration early on in their designs and hav an excellent record, note the raised pilot areas in their design...
@@esau82Dominator gyro is a CLT machine
I lost a friend to a gyrocopter accident ten years ago.. I begged him to sell it. They found his body a half mile short of the airport runway. Neverrr heard the cause.
Did you know that Igor Benson was an ordained minister? No doubt so that he could give last rites with his machines.
Has anyone attempted an electronic anti-bunt control?
It seems like it would be a fairly simple safety measure. A micro-controller / accelerometer / gyro combo that simply takes control of throttle and stick position in events of low / negative G's.
Not that I know of and for general aviation it becomes too complex to maintain, check and regulate for use. This is fundamentally why you see things on drones you can buy for $20 that seem amazing - height holding in a stable hover being one = that you don't see on $2m helicopters because a $20 drone it doesn't matter if they haven't thought how to maintain the system and if it fails it hits the wall in your front room, not wipes out a crew, pax and people on the ground.
Sounds like the MCAS
Thanks for this. Tell me -- what if the aircraft had been higher in altitude and not so close to the ground? Would they have had time to recover? Or was this totally unrecoverable, regardless of altitude? Also, is this danger unique to gyroplanes, or can it happen to other types of aircraft too?
Hi - I think in this instance with more height and the same pilot actions it still crashes. The issue is that once the rotor of this type is unloaded then the pilot looses directional control and at the same time the rotor RPM decays and so the rotors themselves loose their integrity. This was a similar accident and gives a fuller explanation www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/7-1974-g-axar-11-september-1970
Its unique to any teetering rotor system - so all sport gyroplanes but also Robinson and Bell 2 blade helicopters.
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 when you say "rotors themselves lose integrity" -- did the rotors disintegrate in flight? Or did the rotor spin sort of "stall"? I'm wondering if some kind of emergency pre-rotator could have revived their spin, to then save the vehicle (provided there was enough altitude and time to recover)? Imagine there was a rotor RPM counter, and when it detects the RPM drop below a certain level, then it triggers some emergency pre-rotator device.
As in the rotor gains its ability to carry the weight of aircraft through its rotational velocity. If you have a powered input to the rotor then you'd need some form of anti-torque [i.e. a tail rotor] and then you create a different problem.
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 Well, I figure that some torque and consequent rotation in the vehicle itself can't be as bad as the spin stall, which itself proved to be catastrophic. At least if the rotor keeps spinning, then you have some hope.
@@manofsanI think he means that once the machine starts "tumbling" in the air, the rotor will never get the chance to start spinning again (because you need to move straight for a while , for the rotor to pick up RPMs). At least this is what I have understood. Pretty horrible really, to know he is gonna die and nothing to do about it.
How easy do the rotors unload in a downdraft eg caught on the leeward side of a mountain or a sudden gust even if brief. Or as you come out a large thermal and get sink.
Supposedly they are not as sensitive to winds and turbulent air when compared to a trike with a weight shift wing like an Evolution trike. I'm not a pilot in either only what I have read.
@@Mike-01234 I wrote to Ken Wallis years ago, and he relayed a tale of flying his gyro in a hurricane in Brazil, with palm trees flying by and all commercial aircraft grounded. Gyros are incredibly stable in adverse conditions.
When you say 'unloading the rotors', could I translate that as a kind-of 'wing stall"?
Hi and no. So rotors in autorotation do so because of airflow through the blade and because of the position of the aerodynamic force the rotor continues to rotate. Therefore "unloading the rotors" to mean a g value less than 1, means airflow is taken away.
This slow motion shot is right on. You can clearly see when the blades begin to Mast bump. This is the only video I've seen of a real rotor craft mast bumping. This is how a low g push causes a free fall to certain death.
Is this due to the fact that when the rotor is unloaded (may also happen if the wind goes downwards, like in the storm or in the mountains), pusher propeller has no forces that balance it, and if it's over the center of masses (like in this construction where it's over), it will make a spin movement? If it was properly centered with enough power it would just push the gyro forward without that deadly spin, or the gyro would start to fall in-place that would load back the rotor.
Hi Anton - take a look at some of the webinar films. The issue when the rotor is unloaded is that you loose directional control because that is performed by the orientation of rotor thrust.
Gyros need constant pressure under the rotor to maintain lift. a push over like that stalls it.
How can the pilot detect that it is going to happen before it happens? Maybe by looking at the rpm for the rotor?
@@divadjens4278 Airspeed slows but like he said just don't do high energy maneuvers like this.
It's not really a stall, because the rotor never stalls. What is happening is in a zero/low g situation, you have zero lift, hence no flying surfaces available to provide directional control, so the thrust-line of the powerplant becomes the only control available.
Defying gravity is always a risk, no matter how safe somone tells you it is.
Its got to always fall on the rotor he stalled it till it only fell on the aft side right after the unloading and that plus full power pitched it?
Rotor isn't stalled although the airspeed was getting low and so if the stick is held where it was to commence the climb you'd just "mush" towards the ground. It rolls because the rotor a g values less than 1 isn't resisting the effects from the motor and once it has departed from controlled flight - you see the result. A good graphic here:-
www.tervis.fidisk.fi/JTsite/safety/Gyrosafety.html
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 Read that link you sent says the cause of Pitch Instability was exacerbated by the fact that early Gryos like Bensons lacked a horizontal stabilizers. I'm assuming with the engine thrust right over that stabilizer it would help does it not?
If he was higher up, could he have used the controls to level the gyro out and resume autorotating?
Makes sense if rotor is always need air flowing from the bottom though to the top of the blades if it loses forward airspeed at the same time the nose pitches over going to flip over now just a dead weight falling though the air.
Observation here from my prospective as a non-experienced pilot. He went waaaaay to fast for the crafts design, pulling up at those speeds made it completely unstable resulting this crash
Good tip at the end.
İf u feel negative G. Pull the stick back, load rotor again, then correct the roll.
2:07 2:08 did the rotor hit the propeller blade? It looks like it did?
In the last frames I can see pieces flying off even before the craft hits the ground.
Considering how thes flying things are build this should not be a surpise. But to be fai any plane/helo can be made to disassemble in the air first rather than on the ground second.
Its likely - once the rotor is unloaded, in this case caused as the aircraft starts to fly in a ballistic path and therefore g becomes towards zero. The rotor then starts to loose RPM and eventually starts to flap and finally looses its structural integrity.
Are gyros currently banned in Japan?
I can find none registered there, and there was a bizarre incident three years ago, with an imported Cavalon.
Un-registered machine, uncommanded take-off, fatal crash (tail-strike in the air, interestingly)
No i don't think gyroplanes are banned in Japan but in truth its not a market i have a lot of knowledge of. I think the Cavalon accident had the usual set of unknowns but given the nature you can see the holes in the cheese line up a long way away - I mean how did anyone end up sat in an un-registered aircraft with the engine running and get an "un-commanded" take off?? Hmmm yeah OK.
czcams.com/video/xFcgEPz0LVg/video.html&
www.dropbox.com/s/pzbp6skypvwmtff/AA2017-6-5-none.ja.en%20%281%29.pdf?dl=0
Air strike means negative g. The other thing to look for is often the blades end up bent forward like an upsidedown banana but not backwards as if high enough by the time they hit the ground they have little forward speed. No gyro is fool proof with negative g, neither are choppers, or trikes. Trikes may be able to recover but risk overstressing the wing. Anything in which you hang beneath a universal joint and the weight has any bearing on control will loose that control if you pushing is weightless.
Wow, that was definitely a graphic illustration of just what how quickly things can go wrong, and obviously a case of what not to do!
So if he just cut back on the throttle, and applied some positive pressure on the rotor blades, he could have made it out safely?
It probably didn't help that the engine trust line was up quite high on that gyro too.
I heard that unloading the rotor blades even on some helicopters (teetering, 2 blade helis), can also lead to bad things happening, like mast bump, and even tail boom stikes!😬
It really pays to know what you, and your machine are capable of, as well as their respective limits.
Condolences to the pilot's family.
No if he had more altitude he would have made it. He wrote a cheque the copter could not cash at that low of a altitude.
@@Wildstar40 I disagree. Once you "bunt" - Power Push Over in a gyro you are done. Someone is collecting on your life insurance. There is no recovery regardless of available altitude.
Aren't these types of gyro (I do not see any horizontal stabiliser) less stable in pitch than our Magni, AutoGyro, Ela's ?
It’s one of the sources of debate. The aerodynamic study that was commissioned by the CAA suggested that horizontal stabs make no difference when they looked at the actual data. The issue (and I think why the confusion exists) is because inbetween the time the aero study was commissioned and its eventual publication in whole there had been a fresh set of accidents with RAF2000 and the CAA has by then suggested horizontal stabs as part of the solution to that problem. So the CAA made efforts to disagree with the data and recorded so in the published report despite there being no data just subjective feeling from their test pilot. My own feeling for what it’s worth is that I suspect a tailplane gives a feeling in some flight modes but a horizontal stab means what exactly? Where is it placed, (not just in ref to CoG but also to the prop) what aerofoil profile,
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 The purpose of the horizontal stabilizer it's to avoid the push over when the gyrocopter is throttling hard in low g / low rotor load conditions (PPO). It doesn't need any aerofoil profile, just a sheet it's fine, because the horizontal stabilizer put in the middle of the air stream coming from the propeller keeps the gyrocopter in the same angle, with more force as the pilot throttles more, same as a weather vane.
So yes , of course, the horizontal stabilizer put at the height of the middle of the propeller thrust it's without a doubt a huge advance in pusher gyrocopter safety. Indeed most all modern pusher type gyrocopters have it.
Center of gravity in front of the center of uplift aerodynamic pression (as example by putting the pilot well before the rotor axis in the direction of flight), push force at the same height of the center of gravity and rear horizontal stabilizer put at the middle of the propeller air stream, it all make pusher gyrocopters as stable and safe as the La Cierva type, tractor autogyro, because it have the same forces configuration.
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 At the airspeed at which this event happened, the pilot would have had very little elevator authority (unless, perhaps the empenage was directly in the prop blast and sufficiently large to overcome the thrust-line moment).
On newer builds what about an assist system for the rotor blades ? Sure if you Bunt/loop that's all she wrote, but what about a high torque starter motor with capacitors and programmable rpm switch 🤔
Machine the gyrohead with an outside gear similar to an outboard flywheel, the bendix is far enough away from the rotor to be safe but in the event you lose rotor speed it can engage even if just briefly and get you back 300-400 rpm
Would that give you back enough lift to get out this scenario ? Or would that initiate a horizontal spin without a tail rotor even if it's only a brief second?
that gyro had not stabilizer, that might have helped?
It seems to me that if he simply continued his climb until he bled off air speed to a near stall, this would not have happened because the rotor would have maintained its loading. Correct?
Yes I think to some degree that is correct - as in I know what you are saying - but don't forget there is no aerodynamic stall like a fixed wing here because of the wing being the rotor and the pilot would [will in real life today] have to make positive control inputs to ensure that at the point of airspeed reducing in the climb [because at some point the motor can not sustain the current climb angle - we are not in a rocket!] to ensure 1g is maintained, remember once you start to fly a "ballistic" type flight path you are at zero g.
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 Yes, I understand that there is no stall speed. My meaning was that as the airspeed bled off, wouldn't the aircraft stop climbing and then the pilot could simply return to level flight with no throttle changes?
@@sevenrats yep I understand, just being overly pedantic for the benefit of those who read later. What is a nice way to do it is turn it into a semi-wing over where you just roll and pull - that ensures the rotor disc is always loaded. See my film on unusual attitudes czcams.com/video/sAgmha6XHfE/video.html
It seems to me that you should never push on the stick ever. If you want to go down you should decrease throttle.
I appreciate your cadence and accent. I know this is a very sad clip, but I would love to hear you say "it's been a long days night!"
Hard days night maybe.
@@jackfrost2146 Brilliant!
My foster father who was a bit of a gyro man, taught me about porpoising. It looks to me like a failure very similar to what I was taught to avoid. It was certainly a steepish climb which would have lost air speed followed by a push over that caused negative g and the resulting rotar stall and rapid decent. Which without altitide was never going to recover.
Jay I think you have it backwards.. negative g's causes unloading of rotor rsulting in power push over. Loss of airspeed is not a problem but results in normal descent, not stall as with fixed wing aircraft.
Yeah, the steep climb lead to unloading of the gyro and once that happened the rotor simply pushed him to tumble over. Like a parachute the gyro needs that positive g to maintain lift otherwise it will drop like a stone
Does having a horizontal stabilizer fix this issue?
I don’t think so. Apparently running your engine and prop in a tractor configuration does by moving the CoG forward.
The center of gravity could stay the same. But, the thrust line/vector would change. It’s the same with pusher-prop airplanes, dual push-pull airplanes and airplanes with top/high mounted engines.
It helps but it can still happen unless you get a gyro with CLT (center line of thrust) like the dominator or sparrowhawk 3.
Please, see what finnish engineer Jukka Tervamäki wrote about gyroplane pitch instability: www.tervis.fidisk.fi/JTsite/safety/Gyrosafety.html
Jukka is the designer of the first gyros from italian maker Magni Gyro. He highlights the fact that an appropriate horizontal stabilyzer is a key factor to prevent gyro bunt over.
I have to admit… when watching, I can’t see any mistakes prior to it stalling. I’m not a pilot but in my opinion, a bank to the left or right instead of a “leveling out”… would have saved him.
Again, I’m just a tourist when it comes to all of this.
Let me share my experience with something "similar". I was on a training flight one day and during the flight we where discussing with my instructor about the physics of gyroplane flying and he said that the gyroplane , and in particular the rotor, is happy when you are happy. What that means is that as long as you feel your self sitting on the gyro that means that the rotor is loaded. the rotor holds the weight of the gyro and you. A loaded rotor is a happy rotor. When during any maneuver that makes you feel light on the seat or you feel your stomach coming towards your mouth, that means that you are flying less than 1 G. You need to know your machine's limitation because some gyros fly differently from others as you already mentioned in a previous video. Back to my experience, (this was a controlled practice with my instructor) after a slight dive to gain speed i pulled up 10-15 degrees until my airspeed came down to 20 or 30 knots and then i push the stick slightly forward up to the point that i felt my self not touching the seat and the rotor rpm dropping rapidly. what happened? absolutely nothing. why? because we fly a true center line trust machine with a horizontal stab located in the propwash to cancel the engine torque during such situations because at low G's the rotor doesn't have the authority to cancel the engine torque when in full throttle . I'm not promoting this kind of flying and as i said it was a controlled scheduled practice with proper briefing and studying with my instructor.
You were very lucky a guy I knew flying a high C of G machine pushed it too hard in high speed flight he went straight through the cockpit leaving his leg under the instrument panel. Also had stab right in the middle of the thrust line. But yes once you have unloaded the rotor to any extent you loose lift and the machine will conform to whatever other forces are happening. I remember once instructing in the gyro glider we hit massive sink just as the driver slowed down. We dropped and bounced as we bounced very high I felt a complete list of stick sensitivity. A lot of bunt over accidents happen turning from downwind to upwind. People sometimes over turn as the crosswind causes a crab relative to the ground so they turn tighter putting on more power and Blackstock to maintain height. They then level out with masses of inertia. This causes them to climb so they push forward (I think) flattening a rotor still washing off energy actually increases lift as it's now flatter so they push again and bang! Dead! Consider this stab aside, gc thrust line aside. What good will correct thrust line do if you rotors are unloaded. On the ground we unload them after each landing right? So how much stick pressure does that require? Don't get me wrong correct thrust line also helps maintain proper dynamics in flight and can be achieved with downthrust (many take the downthrust off). However,. You can still unload them fatally. The blades stop and you're dead. Your machine geometry may well have saved you but I suspect it was a close thing and wouldn't be trying it again. Just let it climb until it doesn't want to climb anymore or you could put it into a bank and maintain positive g. Cheers
@@cameronlapworth2284 Well said. i agree with everything you said. As I said we were prepared, studied it and briefed about it and we didn't pushed below 310 rpm. We went from 400 rpm (since we where pulling up loaded) down to 310 rpm (during low G)
@@christospsaras7582 I really would like to see some experiments with large RC gyros we could sort a lot out of course awareness which this video does it great. Just don't push it and we'll all be okay.
Christos most of what you have written makes no sense. A gyro's rotor does not exert torque on the aircraft under any condition. Also, the horizontal stab only improves pitch stability, it has no effect on, and is not effected by engine torque. Center-line thrust only helps to prevent "power push over." Negative G's results in rotor speed decay, blade flap, and crash, regardless of center-line thrust or lack of.
Hi Mike. I never said rotor torque but engine torque (on the propeller). What i said is a well known fact that you learn early in your flight training ground school. 1st, do Google image search about "propwash spiral effect on the aircraft" and second "propeller engine torque effect" . Note, when you are trimmed and flying straight with a loaded rotor there's a small amount of rotor thrust vector tilted to the side (roll) that continuously compensates for that engine torque. When you apply sudden throttle changes you instinctively apply cyclic pitch and roll as well to compensate for that high thrust line and engine torque. The gyro that i fly is a center line thrust and has strategically located the tail (vertical and horizontal stabs) in the center of the prop wash to cancel the pitch over and engine torque (propeller! Not rotor) see the Aviomania presentation in this CZcams channel.
what do you think it will happen when you are at full throttle and suddenly your rotor becomes unloaded? what will that engine torque do to your airframe when there's nothing to compensate for it?
I'm new to this and wanting to build a Gyrocopter. I've been watching CZcams videos to see the dangers of what not to do. I think I understand why this person crashed. I totally agree with your video. During the flight of the first few seconds. I heard the motor was full throttle. As he pulled back on the control stick it went straight up causing the motor to stall. Instead of keeping his controls to where the g-force keeps him in his seat. He chose zero g force trying to level instead of going left would've kept him in his seat.
I am not gyroplane rated. But, I fly fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters. So, I am not quite sure what you mean. I have done some studying of gyroplane flying.
The engine did not stall. And, he did not fall out of his seat. The push-over caused the aircraft to go into negative Gs. This caused the rotor to become unloaded. It is the rotor disc load factor (weight pulling down on the rotor) that keeps the rotor in a relative wind to create its spin. A combination of the force vector of the propeller being above the center of gravity increasing the push-over, and the torque of the engine causing adverse roll, put the aircraft in an unrecoverable position.
The prevention of this lies in reducing power before leveling off, and reducing the nose pitch change rate to make the level off more gentle. This can be done by decreasing power, then continuing to apply back-pressure on the control stick until you have achieved your desired altitude. Then, you can reintroduce power in level flight.
@@deanfowlkescorrect sir don't forget this is a old Benson design it didn't even have a horizontal stabilizer and it's not a CLT design the engine sits high in new gyro there all CLT with HS which eliminates this problem and if your still worried get a tractor design gyro rather then a pusher and your 100%protected cheers
What advantages do they have over fixed-wing microlights?
The main one is wind limits and cross country comfort. If you live in the UK you'll know that we get very varied weather and also we have very varied terrain. Fixed wing microlights are great things but you'll get more out of them if you are experienced. Now you could argue that is the case with all aircraft but fixed wing microlights because of their general low wing loading make for a quite "bumpy" ride in turbulent or thermic conditions. That in itself might be something many are put off by. However in the landing phase in particular they are far more sensitive to cross winds. Again in the UK the majority of time we get a South Westerly wind and +10knts and slightly gusty is not unusual. Because of the general loss and decay of the once very numerous airfields in the UK very often a wind from 290-300deg leaves a crosswind. That is a challenge - or rather a much greater challenge to the inexperienced fixed wing microlight pilot. However I would say in almost all cases of aviation you need to doing it often [so +20/30hrs per year] and off a reasonable amount of experience, preferably +500hrs but certainly >200hrs. Good luck.
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 Thanks, and as a matter of interest how do the crash statistics for gyrocopters and microlights compare?
@@tungstenkid2271 Hi honestly I don't know and really the problem is that gyroplanes over the last 30 years have really changed because the usual 2 seat gyros you see flying today didn't really exist in any meaningful form before circa 2005/6. So comparing these verse the historic data is one thing then the numbers flying / hours flown are relatively very small. By far the most common modern gyroplane accident today has its roots in some form pilot error - which is reasonably true for all aviation accidents today, the equipment is pretty solid in all cases.
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 - Do you foresee any hope in turning around the aviation trend in the UK? In that, I mean, stopping or reversing the loss of airfields.
I am curious because we here in the US have lost a lot of airfields. We just had a lot to start. So, I am projecting what the future may entail.
@@deanfowlkes Hey - no I think the trend continues in the UK and likely over the next 30 years you are left with a handful of well used GA fields and some ones of historical significance, the rest will be industrial or housing estates. The unsinkable aircraft carrier hasn't been needed for some decades now and aviation is not very popular among the young. Go to an airfield in the UK and you find the following trend. Cyclist and motor cyclists having a cup of tea as the airfield is a source of rural cafes. Older people full of nostalgia, dog walkers and then at the back of the list are a handful of people who actually fly and a smaller group who have flown to the airfield.
This is why you fly a Pitts Special. You can regularly load and unload the wings without failure regardless of power setting. I do have quite a bit of time in rotorcraft (gyro & helicopter). They can be fun although are a lot of work to fly versus fixed wing.
My first thought watching gyrocoppters is "nope. looks too sketchy"
@@geddon436 Gyros are a blast to fly although they are dangerous. Airplanes are much safer.
@@pittss2c601 just as I suspected.
You must realize the price difference of both aquiring and maintaining a Pitts vs an autogyro then.
@@sevenrats I do. I've owned both.
Did the pilot die?
Gyro precession forces seem to lead to the roll and flip towards inverted.
I thought it was from the engine torque and the thrust vector being above the center of gravity. Can you explain more?
Why not show the whole vid?
I am not a gyrocopter pilot, but do have considerable fixed wing time. It appears to me the rotor, which is the gyrocopter’s wing, stalled, am I correct?
It looks to me that rotor hit the propeller. 2:07 2:08 . Pieces fly off in last frame.
Hi - once the rotor is unloaded then there is no directional control nor force to oppose the torque of the prop/motor, hence the roll.
Can you sort this in my head Phil? Looks like he levels out as his speed washes out, but because he's still giving it the beans the prop thrust pushes him over. He reacts with more and more back-stick to correct the push-over but runs out of stick relative to prop thrust. Am I reading this right? If he'd throttled back at the top of his climb, the ship would've settled and he might still be alive wouldn't he?
Yes.
He appears to push the stick forward 3 or 4 inches @1:49....
High thrust line and no H-stab either, of course.
yes agree with that.
Hi Chris - yes I agree. The most striking thing for me is that nothing in any of that looks particularly aggressive. I'm not sure if this was part of a practiced sequence at a show or someone having a play but as you say it almost looks as if it just ran out of energy at the top of the climb and he ran out of ideas. Given the actual height this all happens at in reality simply closing the throttle will create a second issue - i.e. no height. The roll and pull as per my unusual attitudes film would have saved him here - which is one of my big frustrations with UK training because I got heavily criticised for suggesting that. Why? In the UK there is a drive to have one solution fix all problems [because it is easier to write one document / describe one process] and then create a little jingle / slogan / catch phase. All very nice and marketable but it doesn't work because flying isn't like that but Hey ho. I also think all gyroplane pilots should spend a half hour with an aerobatic instructor in a fixed wing to understand the sensations, etc.
Academic, i know, but looks like the rotor chopped the prop, just before impact @2:22
So why the crash
Geez... Why did he do that??
In the slow-mo, you can clearly see him pushing over. It didn't take much movement of the stick to unload, and once the nose dropped, he was done.
Yes I think its more almost allowing the aircraft to fly a ballistic path
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 Yes. With the rotor unloaded, that's kind of what's happening. The only forces acting on the aircraft are from the engine thrust and gravity (and maybe some smallish gyroscopic forces and engine torque).
One thing that puzzles me. I know that some pilots are 'cowboys', and like thrills even if they are a bit dangerous. But this guy was descending rapidly and sounded like he had power to control the descent just above ground level - but why, then, did he pull up so radically? I didn't see an obstacle and he apparently was not trying to land. Was he just joy riding to an extreme?
I think he was performing some demo / display to a fly in.
Wow! He climbs, then no forward AirSpeed, obviously he's going to fall like an anvil. Those things are death traps.
Only if you are stupid. We used to call it the Darwin award, after recent events it has been renamed the Stockton Rush award. Respect is useful in many applications. Dead people prove it, stupid people ignore it and smart people observe it.
Stay with the force not against it.
He probably went to Heaven.
True, and since it's timeless there, he's probably having a conversation with you right now.
Ouch
A fixed wing aircraft has a stall warning horn, a gyroplane should have an unload warning horn that sound when you are about to unload the rotor. Or better yet, have a automatic stick puller. I don't think it is that difficult to implement.
Anyone who's flown old school in e.g. a Bensen or glider might laugh at your suggestion but i support your thinking. Having a realistic simulator on which to train - good enough to mimic a chosen current model - would safely teach students and type converters its corresponding flight envelope and control input limits. Knowing the inputs to avoid much better than inflight sensors, as human reaction to warnings might be too late. On the other hand, if the top end of the market went to fly-by-wire, realtime predictive flight modelling could simply ignore/override human suicide inputs! I guess autonomous flying taxis will bring such technology faster than many care to imagine.
@@ExcaliburBahrainThe problem is people have been told gyros fly like a FW since day one. Gyros actually are more like a trike. Do the same thing on a trike, and you will end up the same.
@@Aviator168 I think it is more complex than that.
Historically, there have been FW pilots who died in gyro accidents because they did not seek sufficient cross-training, or perhaps, forgot what they were taught at the critical moment, and went back to FW reflexes..
This US article dates from 2004...
www.kitplanes.com/gyroplane-safety/
A South African airline pilot's perspective...
mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/gpoley/homepage%201a.htm
@Neminem Laedit Thank you for the link on the Japanese Cavalon crash. It would appear that the cavalon is not immune from the traditional 'bunt' event, which is mostly a thing of the past. There have been a couple of Cavalon 'en route' accidents, so far unexplained. Perhaps their horizontal stabiliser is not big enough, or mounted too high up.
Our host remarked that the Cavalon stabiliser is smaller than other similar machines in another video on the 'Cavalon nod'.
czcams.com/video/xFcgEPz0LVg/video.html&
Hi - see this at around 12m55s for a look at tailplane [the 2017 Sport is consistent with Cavalon] czcams.com/video/n2T2N9Q-RFU/video.html
😢 .................le parachute ...........💙
Last words was oh shit
At one stage I got interested and I considered going as a passenger just to see how it feels. But I realised it is not as ssfe as I thought
I am a old guy and a old pilot and love every thing in flying, even gyrocopters; however I would never fly in one. Let me tell you why. The rotor blades have no inertia and because of this fact the blades are apt to slow very rapidly and lose rotor speed . Thus the reduced lift and no way to recover and the end of your flying . Note in the video that the rotary-blade never strikes the tail and vertical stabilizer. And if I did not know this fact, I to would fly a gyrocopter. However this said, "you can not stand between a man and his destiny".
of course you can always maintain flight in positive g.....
Yet you would fly in an aircraft that is incredibly vulnerable to a major accident in the event of engine trouble during takeoff, and which has inherent issues with spin and stall. For a gyro, an engine out is a doddle, and of course they don't have any issues at all with stalling or spins. Furthermore, because of their high wing loading, they are far more stable in adverse conditions than fixed wing aircraft - unless it's something like a F-104 Starfighter! :)
I appreciate you leaving out the actual impact. I noted that the rotor started to oscillate dramatically as he went to level (which he did while closing the throttle). Don't you want to keep the power on in order to maintain rotor load using air speed? I guess in this case, had he cut the throttle earlier, he would have maintained load on the rotor.
Thanks Bryan. Actually the pilot doesn't close the throttle at the top of the climb prior to levelling out and its that which causes the issue. You need to reduce the throttle at the top which does two things. 1) it removes the thrust from the prop and also the torque effects of the motor at higher RPM 2) it loads the rotor disc.
kip
Is it just me or was the rapid change of altitude responsible for- the blade on top- to make the aircraft unstable. Sorry, not down with the aircraft jargon.
@@jeffb8562 The blade on top is the "rotor". The blade on the back is the "propeller".
Gyro planes will never be a stunt plane. operated without showing off is a sane approach. I have a large yacht. I do not spin the wheel from left to right for fun because the boat is not designed to handle these loads. I saw some idiot do a loop in a gyro. Really stupid, no excuse. No aircraft that is not designed for stunts is capable of doing such nonesense.
"No aircraft that is not designed for stunts is capable of *attempting* such nonesense *more than once*. FTFY
@@MrSunrise- There is a reason that they call you a SOUL once the wheels leave the ground. There is no expectation of your return.
Gyroslicer !!
It just seems to me that a legit/accurate Virtual Reality flight simulation software could really be effective training (muscle memory) to prevent these dangerous flight situations.
Ideally, the programming would need to be tailored to specific aircraft models so as to mimic each craft's unique flight nuances (limitations and strengths) within simulated flight conditions).
Said it before: Gyros are not sport machines unless the pilot is actively involved in, and current with, all aspects of the physics involved. Even then why bother? Go for a STOL aircraft if you want to fly like a stunt pilot. The flight view is (all) the excitement (on offer). Any close to the ground activity should be boring and predictable. These Darwin Award moments will keep Gyros in the news, sales low, prices high and the regulator-trolls frothing with self-justified importance.
ps: Pilot in video must have been flying into a stiff breeze to lose that much inertia so quickly.
Am i the only one who thought this was a rust video 👀
Surely it's not beyond the wit of man to adequately (mathematically) simulate the rotor motion (indeed, the whole aerodynamics of the craft) and see how fast and easily it unloads in similar or other gnarly scenarios we can dream up - without RC models or folk dying? Would be very useful to compare rotor models as well as C/G positions, stabiliser sizes, etc. Need a university aero engineering department to assist, as my Rolls-Royce performance office days are well past! Perhaps a regulatory body push in this direction - pardon the pun - would seriously help in a world increasingly overtaken by commercial, proprietary muscle.
There's always someone who knows....
www.tervis.fidisk.fi/JTsite/safety/Gyrosafety.html
All modern gyro designs follow his advice.
publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/Paper2009_02red.pdf to be fair this surely went a long way to doing that... except when it was published a great many disregarded it and to some degree that included the people who commissioned it. Personally I think it is incredible but you live long enough I guess you see everything!
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 Tervamaki figured it out 40 years earlier. Gave up in disgust, at the denial he met.
But, luckily, he sold his plans to Magni, who started popping out a few factory-builds from the late 1980s.
It snowballed in the early 2000s when AutoGyro-GmbH and ELA-Aviacion joined the party, followed by several more smaller manufacturers. All copying the same basic design.
Probably 5000 of these machines are now flying worldwide, and the gyro renaissance is well under way.
Forecast to be one of the few growth areas in aviation in the coming decade.
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 aha... v.useful material - alas too heavy for many, even enthusiasts. My hope is it could instead become an app or at least a webpage interface that accepted specific gyro parameters (not the manufacturer's app unless adopted by CAA) - like an MS Flight Sim for autogyros! Altho many manufacturers' autogyros resemble others, it would be instructive to model each and develop some measures of safety. The dimensions/ weight/CG etc are not secret once the machines are launched so i don't see why makers should object. Especially as lives are still lost on $100K machines.
It's been done in the UK including testing in machines with an array of sensors. The report found a stabilisers don't work very well and there are stable and unstable Configs related to thrust line and cg. Both downthrust or shifting cg matter but matter mainly at the high speeds. The report has been ignored mainly. My concern and I know I keep going on about this is much of the thinking is that it is possible to make and idiot proof gyro. I don't think it is. Go and Google gyro fatalities and look at the machines. Almost all include stabilisers, all stabiliser Configs are represented,. High gc machines are also represented. One guy I knew had brought such a machine. A great machine I'd have been happy to own by the way. But he had finished his training and was boasting how fast it was and he'd be taking up to over 100mph the next weekend. All us old timers warned him explained it was a high CG machine,. It had a large HS. He'd be fine. He fatally unloaded the machine the next weekend. It will not save you anymore than you can expect to survive sustained inverted flight in a chopper. Anyone who wants to promote an idiot proof gyro can do so by performing that manicure should they wish to make the point. I note no one is mad enough to try but they will market Thier machines as safe based on this. People need to be clear. No gyro is idiot proof.
I prefer my helicopters to be “store bought” rather than homemade ! #SODOESKOBE
Bensen Gyrocopters were not homemade. They are not helicopters either. They have a good safety record.
Fatal? And you lived to tell?
Different person.
👍👍😙🤣🤣🤣🤣
it looked like he continued pulling back ...never really leveled out ! What i think i see is ... it keeps climbing ... nearing the top ..he starts pulling back ... as it starts negative it looks like he pulled full back.
Correct me if i am wrong (FYI I am NOT a gyro pilot )
on seeing again at 1:51 ish it does appear he gives a down but then pulls back ...
Watch again carefully he pulls back and established a climb you can see him push the stick forward but the machine is still climbing what you can't see is he's leveled the disk relative to the airflow. Once the rotor unloaded (takes about 1 sec). He has zero control the machine still accelerating up generally goes straight through the rotor. But he was screwed the moment the rotor unloaded. You can do the same thing in a chopper although harder as the rotor is powered. Gyros are stick free stable but stick fixed unstable. That is if you leave them alone they are very very stable but the moment you move the stick the do exactly what you tell it to and don't stop until you correct. So he didn't need to put in a big input but compared to a fixed wing but this was a big move for a gyro. I'd do a demo instructing in the gyro glider for my students. I'd have them watch my hand as I turned either side of the car and I'd just apply pressure and it's gently swing out release the pressure it's go back with a little opposite and so on until we were banking quite extremely. They wouldn't see my hand move. Now they are easy to fly,. But only after you learn to leave the thing alone and suggest you turn as I said much more stick free stable than a fixed wing. And once you know how you can toss them about in a positive g way. I'd do massive tight banks staring sideways at the ground blades whopping overhead but completely positive, never negative g.
@@cameronlapworth2284 Thank you for that detailed reply ... I am a future G'pilot and this is very useful. CHEERS
For several years I have wanted a gyrocopter. I never knew about this problem until I saw this video. This has totally scared me away from the idea !!!! I will NEVER EVER get one !!!! I thought that a gyrocopter could not be stalled like a fixed wing aircraft.
😂...c'mon now, this guy had a death wish or was a self trained pilot, training himself on a obvious new maneuver🤔...
That's still true, this wasn't a stall. But it's still bad. When it comes to flying, don't "want" an aircraft, "want" spending the time and effort to develop a satisfying skill - you'll live longer.
As has been pointed out, this was not a stall. A conventional aircraft can recover from a stall with enough altitude. Unloading the rotors on a gyro is like tearing off the wings of an aircraft - once the negative G's have taken away the lift, the blades are unrecoverable, because unlike a helicopter they're not being mechanically driven. They are always in a state of auto-rotation - stop the air moving through the blades to keep them turning, and that's it, game over.
G-AXAR, 1970
czcams.com/video/zr6Il2siZRU/video.html
Thanks for this - personally think it looks an identical build up.
@@gyrocopterflyingclub6148 The machine makes a very sharp up-down motion at the top. And yaws left-right.
There is a better, pin-sharp, BBC video in existence, which I remember seeing on BBC2 one evening in the late 1980s, on a prog about the history of Farnborough, IIRC....
Not seen it since.
I like gyros with yogurt-garlic sauce, lettuce, onion and tomatoes
tbh gyrocopters are scary, im sticking to planes
Flying like an idiot 2 feet off the ground didn't help matters either.
Fucking nuts to get on one of those contraptions! Wing suits are so much safer! :)
There's nothing here that is "upsetting to watch," because nothing is shown.
If the last second of a man's life, upside down, out of control, speeding toward the ground, and 20ft from death isn't upsetting, try imaging a family member with him, because you apparently have no empathy.
They stall easy and impossible to recover at low altitude .....I suggest a fixed wing , much safer ..!
What bit is stalled?
Gyroplanes do NOT stall.
@@abidfarooqui-sla3301 I think you'll find the rotars did stall.
@@FireFX42 There's a colossal difference between unloading the rotors in a gyro and stalling. Gyros are stall and spin proof.
Too bad ya cut out the best part
Showing off,,,,,,,,So don't be showing off with Autogyro's
Its not a plane
It’s a gyroplane. 😜
...or even better - just keep away from these nasty Heath Robinson contraptions. No end of these accident to this type over the years. Horrid.
LOLLLLLLLLLL why the fuck it looks like a drawing when he about to turn over XDDDDDDDD WTFFFFFFF
yer, nah, gyrocopter pilots always have a limited life expectancy, stay well clear of these widowmakers
Ya, don't show us the actual impact! You have a right to see it, but we don't???
Fake. Incomplete video. Did not see a crash. As far as I'm concerned the pilot is perfectly fine. Fake.
the narrating is annoying, the vhs quality is annoying, the cut at the end is annoying. Why did you upload?
To show the dynamics of a low g push over and how it develops / is caused. Annoying how?
@Brain Inavat some people are only interested in seeing people die or what? It's about finding the cause of an accident and warning others, and I appreciate the upload.
Anyone flying one of these whirly gigs is asking for trouble...they should be illegal
The same can be said of motorcycles, scuba gear, and hot women. Frankly, riding a bicycle in London, New York, or Chicago is just about as dangerous. Maybe less so than the hot woman. 😜