Halifax! (British "Heavy Metal" Part 1)
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- čas přidán 4. 07. 2024
- Handley Page's Formidable Heavy Bomber from World War II...why did it fade into utter obscurity after the war? Was it really so bad compared to the Avro Lancaster? Let's take a look! This is the first part of a series on the RAF's Heavy Metal Trio: The Halifax, The Stirling, and The Lancaster / worldofwarbirds
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She was an historical plane by any standard. Excellent documentary, sir!
The Halifax had early stability issues and the Mk III was the good one. The bomb load and range were inferior to the Lancaster, but ti was much easier to get out of in an emergency. It was more versatile in non bomber roles. A lot of crews liked them, but a serious number of pilots preferred the greater responsiveness of the Lancaster. It is a shame that there are no airworthy examples.
Very informative . Like all video's you always get "film critics" . It was interesting to see the photo's of the 4 bladed Halifax l had no idea of a 4 blade Halifax. My late neighbour did 2 tours on Armstrong Whitworth Whitley . Handley-Page Halifax and of course the Avro Lancaster. He enjoyed all of them but admitted the low ceiling of the Halifax could be nerve racking , one was having a bomb strike from the high flying Lancasters ! Thankyou !
Many fail to note that the Halifax B mk 111 V1 had a top speed of over 300mph.
Furthermore more crews that were rotated off Lancasters on to Halifax’s, many crews did not want to rotate back to Lancasters
I've heard that sentiment from a few veterans who flew on both types.
A common theme is that crew comfort seems to have been quite a bit better than the Lanc, and rudder issues aside, pilots seemed to love the Halifax's handling.
I think all the issues it suffered were really only the typical teething problems most new types go through, that would've been ironed out quickly in peacetime, but had to be put up with for longer due to the demands of wartime.
@@bluesrocker91 yes I agree, my info comes from a work colleague who flew as a Lancaster radio operator and experienced both types of aircraft and pointed out the differences re exiting the Lancaster and Halifax. My own thoughts are still that we are still influenced by the propaganda.
There is a new channel on CZcams ‘hardthrasher’ who is doing retrospectives on aircraft types and events.
The Halifax is to the Lancaster as the Liberator is the the Flying Fortress - except that the B-17 became more famous because it was chosen to visually symbolize the strategic bombing campaign, and was cemented in the minds of non military people back home - even though the Liberator was just as capable of a heavy bomber, and was produced in far greater numbers. I am a fan of the B-17, because my grandfather was in the 8AF, but the Liberator is my personal favorite American heavy bomber. Great expose on the Halifax - I'm learning about the RAF bombers.
I have an audio episode on the Liberator and will transform it into a video at some point, but it’s a massive subject and a daunting project to start!
The old joke - The B24 was the box the B17 came in....!! Sterling service in the Pacific though with its long range and bomb load!
It is good to see You post again. Well presented information. Thank You for Your time and efforts.
Thank you kindly!
There's only one slight error in my view to this brilliant first part of the Halifax tale. That of the change over to a 4 rather than 2 engined machine, apparently Handley Page had already noted the "issues" with the RR Vulture engines and they approached the Air Ministry with the idea of fitting the merlins instead. To which the Ministry agreed. Avro also had noted the "issues" and also asked to convert their offering, but were instructed to continue with the Manchester. Which the did, but purely on their own account made arrangements to get 4 merlins and make the bigger version of the Manchester that went onto become the Lancaster. A friend hand never heard of the Manchester, and best way of describing it was as a twin engine Lancaster. The Manchester of course being slightly shorter than the Lancaster, though side on at a distance could mistaken., for the bigger sibling.....
Many Halifax were based in North Yorkshire and was the bomber for many Canadian squadrons as well as Free French squadrons. 6 Group RCAF was based in Croft, Dalton, Dishforth, East Moor, Leeming, Linton-on-Ouse, Middleton St. George, Skipton-on-Swale, Tholthorpe, Topcliffe and Wombleton. Free French 346 Squadron "Guyenne" and 347 “Tunisie” Squadron operated from Elvington, near York which is now a museum and the location of the only complete Halifax Mk III in the UK.
Another commenter mentioned that the Yorkshire Museum rolls out their Halifax when the weather is nice. Sweet!
I know Middleton St George very well, also known as Goose Pool. My dad has a couple of bricks in the memorial wall at Elvington for his service in the Halifax.
I remember the last Lanc's final flight Oct 15th 1956. That was cut up at Wroughton MU.
An excellent video on the Halifax. Handley Page was known for developing cutting edge designs, consider the Victor V Bomber. Initially the Halifax was the lead four engine bomber having won the design with Avro Manchester P13/36. The Handley Page designer George Volkert realised straight away the P13/36 specification Jack of all trades, was master of none and was mad. He obtain permission for a 4 engine aircraft, which depended upon model could be a strategic bomber, torpedo bomber, transport aircraft or paratrooper aircraft. Avro at this time with the Manchester continued to attempt to deliver aircraft which could be a dive bomber, which failed. Indeed initially the aircraft ministry for production wanted to bin the Manchester, for Avro and suppliers to build Halifax’s. It would be an interesting thought experiment to consider the full development of Halifax which would have joined by the Vickers Windsor had Lancaster not been built.
Again Rolls Royce got involved to sort engine installation and particularly the poor hydraulics with Avro resulting in the Manchester III which was developed, ultimately into Lancaster. Harris views changed to Lancaster having originally demanded Halifax, because of a single reason it could carry more and larger bombs. However the Halifax had significant advantages particularly survivability it utilised an electrical gun operated systems not hydraulic. My Great Uncle was a Flt Str Flight Engineer, he flew in both, he preferred the Halifax over the Lancaster because it gave the crew a better chance to survive combat or crashes, particularly the Mark III with air cooled engines. I understand for Lancaster when H2S was fitted the original mid lower gun was removed, other than Canadian squadrons who maintained it.
Nice videos, thanks for the distraction for this crazy world if only for a little while.
I hear you, brother.
Excelllent documentary, but did you notice that you were gate-crashed by a Coastal Command Wellington at about 12:13?
The RCAF Museum, at CFB Trenton, has a Halifax on display.
Yup! I mention it in the Survivors section. I’ve got to get there sometime. If they let me land my Cessna there. I’d go tomorrow!
@@worldofwarbirds I flew civilian air-ambulence trips in there. I saw other civilian aircraft come and go. At the time, you contacted the CO's office for pemission. That was then, may be different now. But if you told them that your purpose was to promote the RCAF museum and study the RCAF Halifax, I'd be very surprised if they said no. I live in Hamilton and frequent the CWHM. Those guys are mostly ex-RCAF. You might be surprised.
Thank you loved the episode learned a lot
I’m glad you liked it!
The Yorkshire Air Museum at Elvington, Yorkshire, uk have a complete Halifax which 2 years ago was pulled out and all 4 engines were run up together, work is continuing to bring it up to an airworthy condition.
The CZcams Channel Military Aviation History has 'Friday the 13th' - Halifax Heavy Bomber [HP Halifax 1/2 one of 2 videos on CZcams, which has much footage of the internals and crew positions.
Also many forget that the Lancaster and B17 would amble around the skies at around 280mph for the Lanc and the B17 at 263mph, however the Halifax 111 B VI would easily top 300mph. In addition a WW2 Lancaster R/T operator I used to work with, said that although he served in Lancaster's it was known that crew could get out of the Halifax easier.
Really enjoying the Channel .
Glad to hear it!
Group Captain Tom Sawyer who was OC of a Halifax bomber station , Considered the later model Halifax a better aircraft then the Lancaster.
The Canadian bomber group flew Halifax's with great success .
I knew personally an English Halifax pilot who was award the DFC , Losing an engine on the way out to Germany , lost another over the target . Bombed and brought the aircraft home.
Yes, I've had some reports from viewers that the "rudder problem" was indeed fixed with the later versions and they knew former Halifax pilots who used "evasive maneuvers so violent, they overstressed the airframe", but didn't lock the rudders.
My father spent a lot of his early flight hours as the flight engineer in the Halifax. So this was a particularly interesting video and story about the reasons why the Halifax is treated like the "red headed step child" by the more casual aviation historians. Thanks for the new look at this old warbird. And you've earned a new Subscriber.
Welcome aboard!
From Hull, Hell and Halifax. may the Good Lord deliver us.
Always liked this bird along with the maryland. I even met a few who flew them.
What is the Maryland?
As Lanc's became more available, Halifax production could have been diverted to ASW production to hunt U-boats
The RN argued this and said that rather than waste bombers and crews on largely futile bombing of cities in Germany the long range 4 engined bombers should have been used as anti-submarine patrol aircraft .A large fleet of 4 engined patrol bombers keeping the U boats either at low speed(2kts)whil;e submerged or sinking them would do far more than bombing German civilians to end the war however Churchill ever the amazing military strategist and thinker(he was kept away from any meetings on strategy with the military top brass unlike his similarly self driven Hitler,who actually shared a lot of political ideas with Churchill)in his quest for vengeance after London was bombed vetoed the idea
The one at the Yorkshire Air Museum is complete and is rolled out in fine weather
Thanks for letting me know. Be great to have an airworthy one!
@@worldofwarbirds sorry it’s just rolled out not airworthy- yet
People say the Air Ministry was sluggish when making changes, but the development of the Halifax proves people don't always know what they are talking about. They were also looking at fighters with more than 4 guns before the 4 gun armed Gladiators came into use.
Canadian crews in the RCAF loved their Halifax's which were said to be rugged and reliable with a good record for getting their crews home. Several RCAF units flew with the RAF and seemed to be provided with Halifax's rather than Lancasters. Of course when foreign units were sent home and demobilized their aircraft were quickly stricken off strength and then scrapped. While the Avro Lancaster was hailed as the victors and steps were taken to save them post war no effort was made to save the Halifax. Sadly Canada should have brought several of them home as reminders for Canadian who flew the type during the war. I have spoken to several Halifax pilots who loved the the type and who spoke of how quickly they were destroyed post war.
I would absolutely love it if at least one could be made airworthy!
@@worldofwarbirds there have been two projects here in Canada but i don't think their goal is to restore them to flying condition. The one at the National meuseum is restored by now and looks amazing, i had to look as I hadn't kept up with the project. I think with so few the risk associated with flying them isn't worth it sadly. Canadians have a different mentality than USians, they would not care if it was the last one in existance they woukd fly it. Here it will sit inside a meuseum for the rest of its life safe and sound. The second project HR871 might give you more info. I am on a dying phone right now so will need to look more up later. Have a good week. Cheers from PEI. I would love to see a flying Argus myself BTW. Grew up with them buzzing the house.
Although many rubbish the Halifax there is a chap that runs the HardThrasher channel, he has a rather interesting video on the B17, guaranteed to upset many across the pond.
He is also producing a series on the allied bombing effort
Boldly Bombing Bu**er All - The Bomber War Episode 1
The Bomber Mafia & The Norden Bombsight - What The Heck Happened? The Bomber War Episode 2
The Butt Report - Nadir of the RAF - The Bomber War Episode 3
Masters of the Air - The Bomber War Episode 4 - 8th Airforce 1942-1943
With others in the pipeline
He as also produced a 4 part series on the Battle of Britain on his channel which will upset many on the uk side of the pond
Not to be out done he has produced a video on German equipment.
His videos on the English Electric Lightening and the Blackburn Buccaneer are an insight.
No one escapes the retrospective.
I live near Halifax so I've always had a fascination for this aircraft and I'm not sure that the bomber was actually named after the town. In the book "Famous Bombers of WWII", William Green tells us that Lord Halifax (who was a very prominent politician at the time) gave a speech at the aircraft's christening ceremony, and that it was named after him. (A lord's title does not mean that he has any connection with the town or city of that name, which is indeed true of Lord Halifax and the town itself - I don't think he ever even visited it !)
Of course, it's perfectly possible that Handley Page said they named it after him just to massage his ego. 😉
Oh, and the Lancaster from the BoBMF flew right over my house two days ago. 😊
Just look at the names of other British bombers of the time and that will answer your question😜.
@@davidpeters6536 Oh, I can see that and totally agree with you, which is why I included the last short paragraph. Still, I can't say I'd blame them if they *didn't* want to name it after a grubby, unfashionable, and distinctly unglamorous northern town. 😉
go to Trenton RCAF air base and museum there they one on display
From the stories i heard. We lost a bunch of them during logistical movements, not combat.
Kind of just recurring bad luck
George Volkert, Handley Page's chief designer aldo produced a high-speed unarmed bomber a good 3 years before de Havilland came up with the unarmed Mosquito bomber.
That's interesting! Was there a working name or number? I'd like to look that up...
@@worldofwarbirds it was given the highly unimaginative name of the Handley Page Unarmed Bomber. It was outlined in May 1937 in a 20 page document called "A Memorandum on Bombing Policy and Its Influence on Design". The bomber appears in Part 2 of this document. The proposed twin-engined design was made to P.13/36 without any defensive armourment. It had all of the normal 3,000lb bombload in the fuselage instead of partially in the wings, allowing the wings to house all of the fuel and also to thinner with the thickness reducing to 18% of chord from 21%. It would 1,165lb lighter than the proposed HP.56 in spite of carrying 2,000lb more in bombs (the HO.56 had a normal bombload of 1,000lb), with the all up weight reducing from 25,773lb to 24,608lb whilst the cruise speed would increase from 278mph to 300mph. Such a proposal was rejected on the grounds that defensive fighters would soon be faster than this bomber. Both R. J. Verney (the Director of Technical Development) and air Chief Marshall E. R. Ludliw-Hewitt (CinC Bomber Command) were in favour of such an aircraft, but don't let the Mosquito crowd hear such heresy. They can't accept that the Air Ministry was looking for aircraft designs based on wood and steel back in 1938 when they issued Specification B.9/38 which resulted un the Albermarle (and which de Havilland refused to submit a proposal for). More details can be found in Tony Buttler's book a British Secret Projects - Fighters and Bomber 1935-1950.
Is there a Part 2 ?
There are three videos in the series.
Is it really a Halifax at 12:14 ?
I just took a look. I think so.. Do you think it’s something else?
It is a Wellington GR.Mk. VIII forum.il2sturmovik.com/uploads/monthly_2021_05/Vickers-Wellington-GRVIII-RAF-172Sqn-WNA-on-patrol-over-the-Western-Approaches-1942.jpg.75b5f72f130c17bbb1ca0beab8eda4de.jpg @@worldofwarbirds
Sorry, that is Wellington HX379 of 179 Squadron lost in the Altantic in June 1943.
The super badly was not in the RAF in WWI it was the RFC
Sorry. Your research is OK regarding the power plants but you have no idea just how important the Halifax was to the British war effort.
we appreciate that you do , though
Maybe you napped out between the 10 and 17 minute marks. Or quit after one more engine upgrade.
Hmmmmm. No he didn’t.