Motorcycle Braided Brake Lines! - Why they are better!
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- čas přidán 5. 03. 2021
- What are braided motorcycle brake lines are why they are better than stock rubber lines!
As part of my Motorcycle Tips for new riders playlist, I have made this video answering a very common question.
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#Motorcycles #Brakes #Spicy110 - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Don't forget they look 1000% better!
Indeed they do :)
As an ex hydraulic hose manufacturer, they’re a benefit definitely and in abrasion terms also. My only mild concern being that they may be more difficult to monitor for condition unlike their rubber cousins that perhaps let you know they are expiring more visibly. That’s a small price to pay perhaps but worth baring in mind.
That's a point I have never thought of, they don't show their age. Interesting!
A very real problem. I had a mountune branded hose fail catastrophically.
Another mod to do that I didn't know I needed 😉 Great video!
And whatever type of lines you use, do make sure you use the manufacturer's recommended hydraulic fluid and change it at the specified intervals. Use an unopened container (the fluid is hygroscopic) and marvel at the job it has to do working at high temperatures (get the spec wrong and you can get dangerous vaporisation), helping to prevent corrosion with approved inhibitors and coping with modern ABS and traction control micro valves that can cause compatibility issues.
If in any doubt bring in a friend who has done this before - your life will depend on all braking work properly done.
Nice, well explained info and vid.👍
Thanks for the speedy reply 👍
i put a set of these on my glady a few weeks ago along with some EBC HH pads, made quite a difference to the feel of the brakes and the new pads have a load more bite
Problem with individual feedback is how annectotal it is without any test pad data ....nothing against you personally who I of course dont know but people in general often say gushing wonderful things about their most recent performance upgrades which is generally all seat of the pants. I was a Kawasaki mechanic for a couple years and had people rave about how much better their motorcycle performed after servicing when in fact NOTHING I did could possibly have made ANY performace differecne at all ...lol I mean sure I checked all the bolts and adjusted lever angles and freeplay, change the oil and tighten uo a slightly loose chain erc, checked tire pressure etc ,,,,lol but NOTHING that would make the bike run significntly better ....lol whatever man I think we tend to hullicinate especially when a model justa reallt nice running model to begin with! Then practically every time we ride it again we are impressed all over again! Never gets old kind of thing like a beautiful woman or whatever ....Expecially a fast bike ya know? It never gets old!
What kind of marker are you using? Such a thin long point. Great video very insightful
Very interesting. I've never had braided lines. 125ives done tend to have them obviously. 🙂
Spicy... Just watched this video... And you have "missed" quite a few things, still a good video but I thought I should add a bit of my personal experience to it.
First of all my experience. I've been riding bikes since I was 14, I'm 64 now... Fallen off at every race track you care to name except Thruxton... Pushing the limits of bikes up to 750cc in my time, don't do it now I don't repair quite as quickly. Currently ride a VFR 800F and a Black Vtec, you might have seen me on Hayling because, well I live here too. I used to do 30,000 miles a year on my bikes, that resulted in quite a few strange conversations with Insurance companies I can tell you. OK I'm an old fart.
Teacher's head on now....
When motorcycle designers set out the specifications of the bike on paper, or computer screen or whatever they use these days, they design the bike to perform a certain way, build in what they want the bike to do and unfortunately that involves compromises. The manufacturer doesn't know how large the rider will be, how heavy the rider might be, how "smooth" they might be, in fact they build them for a "rider" that fits their parameters not the buyer. I don't know what the average weight of a ride in Taiwan is, or Europe but the bikes are "universal" in design, important fact to remember.
Front suspension is "designed and built" to fit a lot of parameters. Average weight rider, average braking ability, average road conditions, what the tyres they specify for new build can achieve grip wise, wet grip etc.
So the front especially has a fair bit of "Give" in it. There is compliance built in.
Worst case scenario: Your 65-85kg novice rider doesn't have a real clue about how the braking system dynamic works, rides right up to junctions, clamps a hand around the front brake and heaves hard. In the past this might have locked the brake and sent the rider on a path set out by physics, but these days there are ABS and linked systems to try and alleviate this. And hopefully a bit of training.
Moving on. Now your rider is "enjoying the bike's performance" on a fairly narrow country road. Rider aproaches a corner, not familiar with it, clamps the brakes on, the front suspension compresses, the FLEXIBLE brake lines also flex because this was designed in, so that when the bike is being braked the whole of the braking force is being taken through a compromise spring and damping package, via a compromise tyre combination etc, the rear of the bike starts to come up, the steering trail alters etc.
Then your rider see's the "vanishing point" open up and lets the brakes off, the spring expands, the flexible brake lines allow the suspension to move smoothly through it's cycle and the rider is in some form of control.
Now. Your "Braided lines" have a very unfortunate side effect, you rightly say the flexibles will flex, this is designed in, your Brainded lines will in fact go solid and under heavy braking this introduces more resistance to the forks ability to "dive" and absorb the braking forces. In other words a spring is introduced that wasn't designed in.
This time when your rider brakes hard before his corner, see's the "vanishing point", lets the brakes off in the worst case the bike "dives" again because a spring has just been removed from the front suspension and takes longer to react. Might even rebound with a bit more energy, who knows...
The best way I can describe it is, heavy braking for, say the Bomb hole at Snetterton the bike dives, you set the apex, ease the brakes off and the front starts to react to this extra braided spring being taken out of the equation and dives a bit more, the front wheel trail increases just as you are about to lean in, then rebounds with a bit more gusto and suddenly you have lost the front... OK, worst case scenario, but it's why I ran "rubber" hoses on my track bikes, and why I run rubber hoses on my VFR's.
So... Brainded hoses might look fine, but if you ride a "trailie" stay away from them.
Standard rubber hoses it can be argued have more "feel" too. And usually they fit the hose support clips the manufacturer supplies rather than you having to find some way to hold the hoses where they can move with the wheel travel afforded by the suspension without getting caught. Using cable tidies for instance. Bad things to have around brakes those things.
Going forward, the larger area of the rubber hoses it could be argued gives more of a contact area for cooling the brake fluid too, doesn't matter so much in this country, does on race tracks though.
And lastly. If you do decide to make this change for the looks, please make sure the "hole in the middle" where the brake fluid goes through is the same diameter as the original hoses. Because if it's a larger hole, you gain lever travel, if it's smaller you lose lever travel.
The brakes can only work to the level designed, you won't make them "better" by putting braided hoses on.
I would spend the money on getting front springs installed that match the riders weight rather than making the bike look pretty. But it's not my money.
Braided hoses won't make the bike any less safe but they are a "modification" to the braking system and really you should let your insurers know they are installed.
I note you always mention you are quite a large chap height wise, and this is very useful information. Me, not so tall but probably as heavy.
HTH.
Thank for the all the info, very interesting stuff that I have not seen said before.
My CB500XA feels like it has braided hoses but it doesn't. My scooter had factory hoses and were squishy until I fitted the hoses. Huge difference. I wonder how solid the brake lever will be on the CB500XA if/when I fit them.
Thanks for the info. I was actually going to ask you if it was worth upgrading the hoses on my Japanese Beef. Now I have the answer. Cheers Spicemeister!
On the DR 100% I have felt it myself
thank you
Good one ! I didn't notice but does your XJ have a fluid clutch as well in which cas I am guessing your gonna put braided a line on the to I am about to put them on my project and also on my XJR never havin had them before . Cheers : )
On this year XJ6 its a cable clutch. 👍
@@spicy110 Hi Spicy I have a question on this what do you think of the Wezmoto lines in comparison to the Hel ones both braded .for my project hel £132 full set Wez £79 full set BUT is there a quality issue ? that's the question .
@@harrier331 Excellent thanks 🙏 for all that info , I will take note of it and for sure go with the best one . In the end more often than not you do get what you pay for and with stuff as important as braking you don’t take risks as you say . : )
very well put, even i got that lol
Is there any weight advantage to the braided hose or just the feel. I'm just curious.
I think both. But the feel is most important mate.
I fitted Hel braided lines a few years ago to my R6. I was happy with them but on last MOT they said I fitted them wrong (front) as the angle at the banjo is too acute. I can’t remember if there was info at time of fitting stating the correct orientation. Hel haven’t responded to my messages. The lines don’t drop straight down but instead they angle back towards the rear of the bike before they go up to the MC. Any thoughts?
Sounds like they are not installed right no. I do not know if it helps here but note the ends can be twisted around also you have to have the right ends in the right orientation. More info here www.helperformance.com/installation
If you replacing brake lines the Hel ones are cheaper than OEM anyway and they come in loads of nice colours
Do they come in bismuth colours? 🤣
😮what's better fer ole R-1 ? Hel. Or core moto ??
I daily ride in AZ, i was getting off the freeway today and my front brakes felt squishy and kind of un-responsive, i think due to the heat. Im looking into getting these to help with that issue...
Sounds more like you have air in there, heat would build pressure and that would lead to them being more sensitive of even lock on. BUT for the heat you get in AZ I dunno anything is possible it could in theroy make the rubber hoses softer but never heard of that happening.
@@spicy110 it comes and goes though, is that normal?
@@nightxiv9329 not really with air in the lines no, but I do not know what those temps could do. There is no harm in fitting braided lines, it will also mean you do a fluid change and that could help too.
I live in AZ as well, have similar unresponsive feeling on my new Z900rs, chalking that up to hot weather and the machine grooving its components I'm...have a used 2913 ducati monster that feels much better, previous owner probably calibrated for AZ temps...
Just think of the equation pressure=force ÷ area and just think about the different Areas and how the pressure can change
The squishiness is driving me nuts, I need the high pressure braided hose for sure.
You forgot to mention that standard brake hoses aren't just rubber. What gives the hose it's strength is the woven layer of materials such as Kevlar in them. These are also materials that resist expansion just like a stainless steel weave or braid. The difference is the stainless braid is made visible to be shown off and decorative which is why it was used popularly in hot rods etc. The idea that standard brake hoses are just rubber akin to a cheap garden hose for example whereas "braided stainless steel hoses" are the only type that are reinforced is very misleading. The reason "braided brake lines" are so popular is in my opinion because they are marketed so strongly but actual evidence of real improvement in performance is not available from these advertisers. One of the dangers of braided hose is the stainless braiding can disguise the actual condition of the hose, whereas the age of a standard brake hose is more identifiable. The standard brake hose because it is more flexible also does a better job of absorbing any forces that may put strain on fixed mating components such as banjo bolts.
Hmmm this is a strange claim. Theres a reason why race bikes and most bikes built for the race track have steel braided lines, they are superior in every way. Steel braided lines arent just for hot rods LOL. They make them very cheap nowadays so there is really no excuse not to have them if you ever replace your standard rubber hose. Stainless steel lines are much more durable.
@@emptyMT839 I agree with Andy. I don't think it's a "strange claim", I think he's looking at it scientifically without letting advertising and anecdotal evidence interfere. These braided brake lines certainly look fancy, and people who by them are highly effected by the money they spent, and the time involved in the "upgrade" as to their opinion of the effects after install. Look up the ericthecarguy video on the subject for evidence counter to your opinion if you want.
@@chrishoesing5455not necessarily, a brake line in a car connects to a rubber brake hose. So your going from still rubber to then steel. So the benefit is extremely minor in that case. A motorcycle brake line connects directly to the cylinder giving you direct feel of the braking mechanism. The added benefit is only really utilized when braking to near maximum levels which is why motogp riders use them cuz they actually have the balls to utilize full brakes purposefully on the whim. In reality us normal riders will probably never use the full braking power of the motorcycle effectively enough to reep those statistical benefits. But as mentioned steel braided brake lines will give you a better direct feel to your brakes which can help you better gauge the amount of braking force you actually are applying in situations where you do need to come to a stop quickly. Is it worth it to upgrade on new rubber brake lines? No, but if your brake lines are old and due for servicing then it makes sense to swap for steel braided ones. If anything, utilize those rubber brake lines to learn how to brake on your bike before upgrading to steel lines which will only increase the feedback or feel you will get from applying brakes and can be the reason you crash if you dont even know how to brake quickly on a motorcycle
@@HamzMoto Well, you're representing the standard claim on this topic, which is already thoroughly explained by everyone else. I'm disagreeing with that claim. It is an appearance thing is all IMHO.
@@chrishoesing5455 have u ever used steel braided brake lines on a motorcycle? It is not the same as rubber brake lines to any extent. They have drastically different feel and the steel braids do give you much better feedback especially as your brakes are warm which is where rubber brakes line begin to feel the uncertainty of applied brakes connecting to your lever. Now if all you have driven is a car then of course you wont be able to tell the difference cuz all you need to do is stomp on the pedal more and you will get the connection rather quickly. You simply cannot do that on a motorcycle unless you like playing with fire. Also money spent has nothing to do with it cuz you do know steel lines and rubber lines are nearly the same price as a motorcycle part. Thats why i said you might as well replace only when the need to service your old lines r necessary, otherwise wasting money.
Hi Spicy can you braided lines on a Honda CRF250L 👍
As far as I know you can use them to replace any standard brake hose. Just have to find the right one for your bike as they are all different lengths.
are you sure about the only 2 types of brake hoses ?
What about Braided Brake hoses that have a covering made of rubber ? They do feel like steel, but unless and untill you cut one up, its hard to tell.
"What about Braided Brake hoses that have a covering made of rubber" you said it yourself it is a braided line still, for more detail.
There are many types of braided lines but brake lines come in 3 normal types.
1. Rubber: soft and flex more with no steel braiding at all.
2. Braided: As in a brake line with braided steel to stop expansion, That could be on the outside or within the rubber, it is doing the same thing.
3. Hardline: These are metal tubes bent in to shape. These are only really used on cars or in concise places on some bikes but not common at all.
So yes in the context of motorcycles, we talked about them as two types, braided or rubber.
@@spicy110
Thankyou Spicy for the prompt response, wasnt expecting that 😅
But I do have a few followup queries.
1. Does the braid have to be made of steel ? Why not other synthetic materials that do not react with the corrosive brake fluid.
2. I would like to know the types of braided hoses available for motorcycles.
I would assume these are some of the available ones:
- Steel Braided
- Stainless Steel Braided
- Nylon Braided.
But there might be more options out there.
3. How much of a performance delta is to be expected b/w the above 3 mentioned types of hosing? Are Nylon Braided Hoses Inferior to Steel Braided.
4. Is Stainless Steel Braided going to offer the least flex/expansion of the walls when pressurized ?
The inside of all hoses is a rubber or plastic of some kind, the fluid never comes in contact with the braiding. I do think rubber lines have nylon meshing in them for some strength against expansion, but it is less than a braided line. Hence the selling point of brained lines on motorcycles. The Steel in the braids from good suppliers like HEL are all stainless.
Beyond that, I would ask the experts at a company who makes them like Hel auto.helperformance.com/
@@spicy110 Nivce Pun at the end there😂 Well I was looking for the answers on CZcams. Please revert when you have the time ! :) It would be an amazing experience for you to share on your channel.
I have no intentions of getting in contact with HEL. They would return with biased answers. Besides I have read their Product pages, sure they offer the best in the market. But I'm not looking particularly for the best. I wanted to know about the different types available and their performance metrics.
I put HEL break hoses on my Herald 125cc
Hey, I know this is a pretty old comment but how did it feel compared to the old rubber lines? Are they any worth?
@@d4nky967 I thought they were better.
Nothing to do with hoses - what’s that pen thing you’re using to draw the diagrams? Ta.
pica marker, very handy for marking holes for drilling, more so if its a deep hole as the thin tip is close to the wall of the hole.
@@spicy110 Thank you. I shall order one immediately!
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Can you do some more autotrader videos 👍.
if you have a idea for a angle for looking sure!
@@spicy110 Maybe best supermoto/ enduro for £6,500
I hate when my hose has flex and feels mushy 🙈🙄
you can get pills for that...I mean lines, lines for that!
@@spicy110 😂😂 great advice. I’ll make sure to get the pills ready for the next sausage fest. I mean lines sorry. Me and the Mrs must arrive with a sturdy hose
CHAQUENO!!!!!!!!!!!
is it Jesse Eisenberg talking in this movie?!
Isn't he American? 🗽
Seems to me that what used to be a no brainer straightforward monor updrade with clear noticeable benefits has turned into a dubious proposition requiring a lot more work (and expense of paying a shop) with a much less noticable return on investment and effort.....why is all this? Because of the extra hydraulic circuits for abs which not only increases complesity and expenss of the job but also the net effect is not anywhere as noticable as in bygone bre abs era ....because the abs system itself adds to the mushiness of feel ....whih explains why reviewers even are all "Meh!" after testing brand new premium model bikes with the best Brembo sylema brakes complete with OEM braided lines....As wonderfully life saving as ABS has become the cost is "wooden" feen to braking systems...Maybe future innovations can fix this to having both cake and eating said cake too? Time well tell I suppose
Yer ABS systems do change the whole game. I have used some that feel great with ABS brakes but also some terrible ones.
Bmw seem to fit them OEM
Several manufacturers do
A lot of assumptions in your description, as an engineer I'd need to see hard and fast figures not just theories. The original hoses are much bigger in diameter, therefore won't they be more rigid and not give as much ?? There's an assumption of my own.
I can say from feel I can confirm the claims imo.....tho I wonder if you could get a pressure gauge in the other end....i will see!
@@spicy110 thats the problem, its a subjective measurement, you need a like for like comparison to be sure. New lines could also follow new pads and a full bleed, so theres a big difference there.
braided lines are far superior that's from many years of experience , not assumption! This is why they are used on race bikes. Go to the race track and find one race bike without them. I know this video is old and hopefully this is already been cleared out for you.
@@jimmycapps7263 But I'm not on a race bike ! Race bikes can have carbon brake discs, I've not, race bikes are thrashed around a track, mine not. Just the assumption that race bikes, or cars, are better is flawed immediately.
@@jimmycapps7263 there’s also no Honda gold wings at the race circuit 🤷♂️ so your point is ?
Stock rubber brake lines are better! Why ? Because it aids in gradually braking, giving you more control.
So only use braded lines if you have ABS.
.
To say there better is not strictly true.
Go on.....
@@spicy110 first may I say I do enjoy your channel👍. They are constructed differently. Normal rubber hoses are fatter because they have a reinforced layer to prevent flexing or bulging in the hose, which helps maintain the brake pressure. Braided ones are basically the same principle, however instead of using a reinforced layer the braiding acts as the reinforced layer. As the inner layer is rubber these deteriorate in time just as for the rubber type. After a long service life, when you come to overhaul your brakes, whether you change the hoses with rubber ones or braided ones they will both give an improved brake feel. I will say the braided ones do look better. On some models the braided ones are cheaper, and this probably reflects the cost of the reinforced rubber ones as they have to maintain the same forces which steel braided ones can. Bikes by design unlike cars have more flexible hoses and have to maintain this pressure, and that’s in the design of the rubber hose. So whether you choose rubber reinforced or steel braided reinforced, the effect is the same. It’s just down to a personal choice 👍